Your lawyer can give you a good idea about what the "standard" child custody arrangement is in your state. You will want to give some thought as to presenting your proposal from the standpoint of what is best for the kids.
Speaking with your lawyer will most likely help you with the fear and uncertainty, and if they give you tasks to do, do not procrastinate. You'll definitely want to get a better handle on your finances before you head into mediation. It will be a much more effective discussion on your side if you go in to it educated and confident about these matters.
Originally Posted By: rppfl
RAI, I agree with Raliced that your L can be helpful in explaining common child sharing arrangements. There are many variations. Just be sure you ask for what you really want up front, it might be hard to increase time later.
Thanks RPP and raliced. I have made an appt to meet with L tomorrow morning. I was under the false assumption - this is all new to me, after all - that if I was going to go through mediation that the L's involvement would only come at the end of the process. I see now that it is important to have someone in one's own corner to continue to provide counsel. I am certain that my W is receiving this advice. Her brother is a shrewd and shifty L.
raliced, I get your point about doing what is best for the kids. In a recent podcast given by a child psychologist I heard that, in general, the thing spouses most vociferously argue about - living arrangements - has the least impact on the children's emotional health long term - as long as the child has meaningful contact with both parents. It seems like a civil relationship between the parents is much more conducive to a better outcome for the children. This psychologist used a business relationship as a model for how parents should get along. You treat your ex-spouse as a business partner: you don't have to like him/her. You just have to work with them because you are contractually obligated. Someone from the audience raised a valid point: what if your business partner has been lying to you and stealing from you?
In reviewing your last thread, I just realized you were Jewish and there I was....talking about Christianity and even referring to scripture from the NT. See? We all make mistakes. That is one main ingredient we have in common with everyone.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
heh! funny. Ironically, I don't think you were too off base about my past sins. Most major religions have more in common than they do differences anyway.
I promised you a list of things I would change - I did not forget. But instead, for now, I have another list - books I plan to read:
1) re-read DR 2) the 5 love languages 3) It's called a breakup because it is broken
I hope through reading these, I can gain more insight into who I am and who I want to be, and come up with the real list. Any other suggestions?
RAI
P.S. you last major post on WW was incredible. I truly appreciate your insight. P.S.S. I keep wondering if I know any of the DBers IRL
I was on the treadmill yesterday and I saw a music video that I would never have given any thought to pre-A. The late Whitney Houston's "It's not right but it's ok". Empowering for LBS. Good beat for running. Add it to my list.
My first entry here is perhaps a little childish, but I think it's fantastic. Just saw the movie Tarzan (disney animated version) for the first time and I've been jamming Son of Man ever since. Phil Collins is and will always be the man. Maybe that song can help someone get out of a funk for a little while. Very upbeat and catchy
Me 38, WAW 30 D11 (former marriage) S2 T 8 years M 3 years BD 8/20/23 S 8/20/23
My first entry here is perhaps a little childish, but I think it's fantastic.
You obviously have not seen my post about pinocchio.
Quote:
Just saw the movie Tarzan (disney animated version) for the first time and I've been jamming Son of Man ever since. Phil Collins is and will always be the man. Maybe that song can help someone get out of a funk for a little while. Very upbeat and catchy
Much appreciated. Will check it out. I agree with you about Phil Collins. Too bad he also co-wrote "Easy Lover" . I actually love that song anyway.
Haha no I missed that about Pinocchio! Two Worlds from Tarzan is also good.
Got another song for you, but it might not be for many on here right now. Sam Smith's "I'm Not the Only One". It's about infidelity, which obviously is a touchy subject with many here. But it's super smooth. And there is a lyric that resonated with me this morning, especially being on the "healing half" of this BD/A/D trauma:
Originally Posted By: Sam Smith
You've made me realize my deepest fear
Aside from something terrible happening to D2, being cheated on and left by WAW really was my deepest fear. And it happened. And I survived. The pain, for 6 months, was unbearable. But I'm promise everyone here, the post-pain is more relieving, exhilarating and empowering than you can possibly imagine when you're struggling, knee-deep in the mud. Just keep following the people here that have been through it! You don't have to see the light at the end of the tunnel, just keep walking to where we are telling you it is.
Me 38, WAW 30 D11 (former marriage) S2 T 8 years M 3 years BD 8/20/23 S 8/20/23
Hi RAI, thanks for stopping by my thread. I see you are still living with your WA as well. Makes it very difficult to detach!
Since we're talking about songs of course there are a ton that I relate too. "Just give me a reason" Pink and "a little bit stronger" by Sara Evans are two I always find myself singing extra loud! LOL
Me-44 (45) H- 50 (51) M-'96
S-18(20)D-15(17)D-12(14)
BD Feb 2014 (he works overseas) home Oct(sep rooms) (EAs possible Pa's unconfirmed) insists wants D through July 2015 no more talk of D since
Card29 and lost18, I have not had a chance to listen to your suggested tunes, but I will soon. Thanks for contributing.
Card29, I believe you when you say I will come out of it better and stronger. Definitely stronger. Met with my trainer again today. I'm going to feel today's workout for the next 3 days! But seriously, your words are truly comforting. Just to be reminded that there is a light at the end of the tunnel helps immensely. I really can't see that light right now. At all.
Passover is in about 3 weeks. We always go to my sister's house and the kids look forward to it all year. This year my W does not want to go for obvious reasons (my sister and mother know about the A and are very hurt). My sister still wants us to come - she is even willing to accommodate my W - she loves me and my children more than she hates my W - but my W wants to stay home this year - celebrate without any extended family. My kids are going to ask why we are not going to see their auntie this year and I don't know what to tell them. I am letting my W decide because I don't want her to accuse me of being controlling. If we go without her, she could also blame me for keeping the kids away from their mother on the holiday. Lastly as much as I hate (sorry, but I do - that is not forbidden, is it?) my W right now, the kids should probably be with both parents one last time. So I am putting the decision squarely in her hands. If we don't go, I don't have a good explanation to tell my kids when they ask. I will have to abide by her decision and not blame her so as not to alienate her.
How blind is my W that she cannot see how she has complicated our lives? I hope she loves OM a lot because she has really sacrificed a lot for him *sarcasm intended*.
Here is a quote from a post I made in koalada's thread that (more) succinctly explains my sitch with the upcoming holidays:
Originally Posted By: RAI
vis a vis a family get-together for Passover: Either we go to my sisters without W and my kids are deprived of their mother, or we stay home as a family, and my kids are deprived of their aunt and cousins. My W is so torn and cannot decide what to do. It is sickening that she brought this upon her family and now is agonizing how to make things good for the children - without even thinking about changing herself or ending the A.
We have gone to my sister's for years. They are our closest family - both geographically and emotionally. My kids are begging us to go to my sister's house for the holiday. My W can't accept the fact that no matter what option we choose, someone will miss out. What my W does not get (or denies) is that this is going to be the future for our children. She is depriving them of so much and I can't do much about it. CARD29, where is the light at the end of the tunnel? We are still M and in the same home and I am already struggling with this new reality. Every holiday, occasion, and celebration will have attached to it some sort of negotiation, accompanied by a parting. How very painful. Any advice for holiday times?
I just got off of phone with W. She has decided that we should not, after all these years, be with my sister for Passover. I lost my composure for the first time in a while and told her that I know what she is doing. I told her that one day, when she is older and wiser, she will see clearly what she did to her family. I told her that thanks to her behavior, there will be separations before every holiday. I told her that her selfish actions are depriving the children of their family already. I asked her what she is going to tell the kids and she came up with one of her great lies: that it is too difficult to travel this year with the upcoming bar-mitzvah - it is a tiny 3hr drive that I can do with my eyes closed and the kids can almost pack themselves. I want to throw her under the bus and tell the kids that it would not be too difficult, and I am happy to do it, and auntie wants so badly for us to come, but Mommy said "no". When does she get to be accountable for her actions? Why all this sneaking around to protect her? When does she get to feel the loss?
On top of this, I just noticed that I am on service again in April - for the non-physicians out there: stressful, physically and emotionally draining even when life is swell, much worse when your home life is disintegrating and you are lacking adequate emotional support because your spouse went insane. I feel so alone right now and I really could use a steady stream of hugs from others who understand.
RAI- The holidays stink. There's no real way around it.
I know it's hard to keep your cool in these situations, but you can tell her that what she is doing is destructive all you want, but she will have to realize that on her own. In fact, I suspect that hearing it from us just makes them dig in their heels sometimes and determine to prove us wrong.
I would suggest that the next time a holiday comes up - that it not be all her decision (although you may have a mediation plan in place before that).
Hang in there - sorry about your work schedule. While not a physician, I am a healthcare analyst - and there are several CMS programs that have a deadline today, so the entire month has been crazy- I can somewhat relate - although obviously, I do not have lives in my hands. Take care of yourself.
Thanks raliced. Coincidentally, I just cross-posted on your thread.
The reason I made it her decision is because:
1) If I decided to go to my sister's without her, she could build the narrative that I am the villain who excluded her, or that my sister is the villain who excluded her. Both narratives could potentially damage my children's relationship with me or my sister.
2) If I decided to stay home for the holiday, she could shift the blame to me and cast me as the villain who is depriving the children of their family holiday/vacation.
So either way I would look like the villain. I did not think that was fair. So I put the decision in her hands. I honestly don't know what the right thing to do was/is. Bottom line: whatever choice she made would suck because it is a sucky sitch.
Alright fellow DBers. I know this is last minute, but I need some collective wisdom and fast. Yesterday, I had a brief exchange with Sandi regarding the total lack of boundaries currently in my household. My WW is still carrying on with OM and has experienced zero consequences of her actions. She is still having all needs met by me and OM. Yesterday, I asked Sandi whether it is too late to tell her to leave the marital BR. my original post is here as well as her reply. Here are some salient bits which rocked me to my core (my bolding):
Quote:
RAI, It sounds as if you need to find confidence in yourself and in the purposes of the action taken. If she has absolutely no boundaries to honor, no consequences due to her behavior........and you fear taking any action will cause you to look bad, then I would guess you have demoted yourself and have accepted a passive, powerless position in your M and in your family. I understand you don't want the children to see you as some villain. Right now, they are watching......and learning......and will use what they learn to apply in their own M some day. Isn't it more important to be the parent-teacher that demonstrates how a man carries himself during a like situation?... What is your role? Are you the leader, or a passive buddy who doesn't want to rock the boat?
So today, I stumbled upon my WWs kinky underwear honestly for a change: I was doing some laundry - not rifling through her drawers. Now I think the time is right to politely tell my W that I don't need to accept this behavior. I will give her back her panties, no questions asked, but I would like to tell her to move out of the BR. My questions to all is:
1) How should I say it? How do I phrase this boundary? What should I say? 2) What if she refuses? i.e. how do I enforce the boundary?
I really need help to take these first steps. Any comments or input are appreciated.
I agree with Sandi's post - wow - reminded me a lot of my situation too.
My suggestions for the underwear are:
1. Pack up her belonging including the underwear and place them in another bedroom or bedroom. When she asks why is her stuff moved out to the couch (or another bedroom), explain.
2. I would state "I will not live in an open marriage".
Wow HeavyD, that was quick and is much appreciated.
Did you do this with your W?
I am trying to minimize awkwardness in the house and to move all her stuff will definitely make the act more defiant and more noticeable than it needs to be. I don't have a problem with her using her closet; just sleeping in the marital BR. I also don't want to do anything in a controlling fashion and this seems controlling.
Ok, no expert but have recently come across some information about boundaries. Let's see if I can remember it or at least the important stuff.
I think one of the important things is to remember that a boundary is not telling them they can or can not do something but stating what you won't allow to be "done to you" or how somebody else can treat you. Be firm and make sure you have a consequence that you can follow thru with.
Also, there is a thread that is a cheat sheet for boundaries, check that out.
Good luck.
Me-44 (45) H- 50 (51) M-'96
S-18(20)D-15(17)D-12(14)
BD Feb 2014 (he works overseas) home Oct(sep rooms) (EAs possible Pa's unconfirmed) insists wants D through July 2015 no more talk of D since
RAI- There are quite a few veteran posters around here who give great advice about what to do with a wayward wife who is still in the marital home. Hopefully one of them will drop by your thread shortly.
I will just make one comment - it seems like you are basing a lot of these decisions on fear - you might not kick her out of the bedroom because you want to minimize awkwardness, you let her make the Passover decision out of fear of how she would present the decision, etc.
I'm just going to say that no matter how hard you try, some of this is going to be messy and you are going to break some eggs while trying to work on your marital omelet. I haven't dealt with your specific situation at all - but I think you probably want to start taking action and making decisions based on what you know to be right - not what you fear her reaction wil be.
When my H came home I thought I set a boundary, "no communication with OP while me or the girls are home" but I have no way to enforce that. So while I made it clear that I did not want that to happen as it was disrespectful, I did not give a consequence...grr.
Hopefully, a vet will give you some help here but if you are not longer willing to share a bedroom with her you may need to move to the extra bedroom. Just my thought, maybe somebody else has a better suggestion.
Me-44 (45) H- 50 (51) M-'96
S-18(20)D-15(17)D-12(14)
BD Feb 2014 (he works overseas) home Oct(sep rooms) (EAs possible Pa's unconfirmed) insists wants D through July 2015 no more talk of D since
Then don't move out of the bedroom. Look - you're in a pinch because you're already going through mediation and dissolution. You can and should say you won't live in an open marriage - but I'm guessing your wife already considers herself to not be married any longer.
So, tell me, what do you think would be the worst thing that would happen if you firmly said, that as long as you are legally married, you find her open affair disrespectful to you and your family together,and that you expect her to remove herself from the marital bedroom?
, tell me, what do you think would be the worst thing that would happen if you firmly said, that as long as you are legally married, you find her open affair disrespectful to you and your family together,and that you expect her to remove herself from the marital bedroom?
Thanks Raliced for telling it to me straight. I suppose the worst thing that could happen is that she refuses to remove herself from the marital bedroom, and she continues to eat cake while I feel even more powerless and disrespected. If she already considers herself not married to me, Then what claim do I have against her altogether? I'm really beginning to have second thoughts about confronting her. Perhaps you're right raliced, at this stage in the game what is the point? I just feel like I have made so many mistakes along the way. I suppose there's no way to correct any of them. Am I looking at this all wrong? I'm just so tired of not knowing what the right thing to do is. I'm growing weary. Thanks everyone for all the last minute input. RAI
If she already considers herself not married to me, Then what claim do I have against her altogether? I'm really beginning to have second thoughts about confronting her. Perhaps you're right raliced, at this stage in the game what is the point? I just feel like I have made so many mistakes along the way. I suppose there's no way to correct any of them.
RAI
RAI- I've got to get my girls off to bed and I bet there will be some vets around in the morning - but I was encouraging you to stand up for yourself and I'm not sure you took it that way.
You ask what is the point at this stage of the game? I would say the point is standing up for what is right and taking back some of your power. These are not small things.
I think you need to practice talking yourself up, instead of down. Sleep on it and bump your thread in the morning.
Hey RAI - Thanks for stopping by my thread. Hopefully, Wonka will see it and come by. By the way, there's no other way to address a specific poster. You could always click on their name and see their latest post to go write under it.
I'll give you my newcomer's opinion while I'm here. Know that I can sometimes be blunt, even when I don't mean to, and I have the zeal of the convert on certain topics but I really only mean to help you reach your goals and I'm on your side.
Brace yourself if you're asking for veteran's advice on your MBR situation. They don't mince words and they have no sympathy for WAW who make a joke of their LBS like your W is doing to you by conducting an affair while remaining with you (and making you wash her kinky underwear - I mean, read that again; it should be in a telenovella). I've not read your entire sitch, but you seem like a classic wet noodle. I'm also one inside but thanks to these forums, I've learnt to bury it and appear strong and decisive with my WW. I do it because I believe in the process. Have a look at the success stories at the top of my threads to understand how this thing works. You're not doing it right now.
Originally Posted By: RAI
I am trying to minimize awkwardness in the house and to move all her stuff will definitely make the act more defiant and more noticeable than it needs to be. I don't have a problem with her using her closet; just sleeping in the marital BR. I also don't want to do anything in a controlling fashion and this seems controlling.
If you're trying to minimize awkwardness, then that's what you'll get. If you're trying to save your M, then forget about these secondary goals. A general going into a war wants to win it first and minimize casualties second. Making the act noticeable is actually what you want. You want her to look at you and think: "Wow, I can't do what I want to this man." She'll be upset at first, they all are, but over time, you'll regain her respect and that's the foundation of love.
I doubt that you've read No More Mr Nice Guy, but I believe that it is the reading that would open your eyes most at this point. I suspect that your W is leaving you because you are trying to minimize awkwardness and such things. She has lost respect in you. I bet it's difficult to fathom and you probably think that there's nothing wrong with being nice. You should have a look at Barry's thread: he was the same, he read the book, understood a few important things about himself and took control of his life and sitch. You're long overdue for such a turnaround.
You probably need a major attitude change in your sitch and, perhaps, in your life. You need to become a man that we respect, not one that we appreciate and take advantage of. It's a bold statement from knowing you so little, so I let you be the judge of this, but read NMMNG before you discard this idea. My, your phone call with her on March 20th was... pathetic. Sorry, I can't find another word. I should spare your feelings, but something tells me that you'll gain more in the long run from being told straight what it looks like from the outside.
Have you thought of why your W would ever come back to you? Is it out of guilt for the kids or for who's spending the holidays where? No, it's because she will love you and be attracted again. A crier who's a ball of hurt is not attractive. You are hurting your sitch every time you present her that face. Is it hard not to? Tremendously. Is it worth it? Only you know. But if you think so, get with the program.
While I'm at it, I've some more bad news: your sitch is going to last a long time, probably one or two years, if the experience of others is any guide. There is no precedent on these boards of people being super-nice to their W and not rocking the boat where said W realized what a good and attractive man they have at their feet so they should just cancel the whole thing and snuggle in front of House of Cards with him before a session of steamy sex. This should give you some perspective on your actions in the present. You will not save your M in the coming days and weeks, barely in the coming months. She has embarked the both of you on a journey that will take you through hell and for a long time. Step back a little and look at the bigger picture.
Look, everyone is giving you the same advice to stand up for yourself. I know it goes against deeply held beliefs, fears, and shame. I get it. But with the help of my IC and a few books, I've started to see myself better and realize that it's by being like this that I got here. You won't get a different result by doing the same thing again.
Go RAI!
M39 D6 D3 (at S) S 2014-09 D 2016-09
"You can't start a fire sitting around, crying over a broken heart" - Bruce Springsteen.
I'm going to jump on this bandwagon but only because I went through a 4.5 month in house separation and am classic nice guy AND came across wife's new lingerie, so I can make a pretty good guess how you feel. (She still denies OM is an affair by the way)
At this point whatever you do is going to be seen as negative by your W - however its meant, whatever you do. Thats just how she sees you and it helps her justify her position.
Minimising awkwardness - where will that get you? How much minimising of awkwardness is actually more of the same conflict avoidance that I suspect (sorry not fully up to speed on your thread) got you here.
You need to act like the man you want to be, the kind of man you would want your sons to be.
If your boundary is that you won't live in an open marriage then you need to not live in an open marriage and that means she has to leave the marital bedroom. Dont make a big scene just tell her that its not what she sleeps as long as she is not committed to the marriage.
Last edited by jim0987; 03/25/1507:49 AM.
Both mid 30s, 2 young kids BD 7sep14 XW moved on long ago, now living with OM1 D paperwork in progress
Had to wade through the ABC soup to find your thread.
To help me get a better understanding of your current sitch, can you please explain a bit more about servicing in April as a physician? What does that entail? What is involved in that process? How does that affect the schedule for both work and home?
This will influence how I present some ideas and suggestions in respect to the MBR issue. For now, I'll hold them off until I learn a bit more about the "coming stressful April."
Here is a script to keep in the back of your pocket for now. I will wait to hear about the April situation.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Regarding reclaiming the MBR as your own, you can approach W in this way:
“W, we need to talk. I have given this whole situation some thought. By staying in contact with OM, it is disrespectful to me and our marriage. I can’t stay in an open marriage. I don't want to make the situation more confusing for us, and especially the kids, right now. I have decided that I would prefer that you stay out of my bedroom at night."
If your W protests and says it’s her bedroom too and you cannot force her out, pull out this line: “Really? I am not sharing you with another man. I am not going to discuss or debate this with you. ”
If W pushes in and tries to lay down or sit on the bed in a defiant manner, you can say:
“I am going to repeat this only once: please leave now.”
If W digs in, then say in a calm voice but FIRMLY: “Get out now.”
If W tries throw out the “you’re controlling” line at you, you can calmly say:
“I can see how you would see it that way. I am trying to be open and honest here. I need for us to separate physically.”
Then calmly stay in your bedroom and point the door.
If W tries to prolong the conversation, simply say:
“I have made my position very clear to you. I am not having this conversation with you.”
Read up on your threads yesterday and today. Its interesting to see how each of us progress from when we first get here to our most recent posts. Not much to say other than keep up the good work and remain strong. ^^Hope the above advice from Wonka helps you, I'm really curious to see how the boundary plays out.
Accept what is, let go of what was, and have faith in what will be
I agree, it is about standing up for yourself. Why does she want to share a bedroom with you if she is with OM? My H certainly hasn't. Again, not sure how you CAN enforce the boundary, but I think if you use Wonka's script she won't have much choice.
Me-44 (45) H- 50 (51) M-'96
S-18(20)D-15(17)D-12(14)
BD Feb 2014 (he works overseas) home Oct(sep rooms) (EAs possible Pa's unconfirmed) insists wants D through July 2015 no more talk of D since
I woke up to these words in my head and felt empowered today to make some changes in my sitch.
(It's) A new day, a new dawn, a new life for me!!
I am changing my thinking to my H does NOT deserve me. Up to now, I have been trying not to rock the boat so H will come back to me. However, being nice does not work. We need to stand up for ourselves and make them believe they can really truly lose us.
Both 47 M 20 T25 S 18 EA July 11- Jan 12. ILYBNILWY Oct EA April 13 -July 13 Move to work abroad Sept 14 re establish contact with OW while away D bomb 22/12/14 D filed papers served 17/03/15
Thanks for thinking about me. Although the board can be very comforting, I have had a lot of real-life commitments to address. I think your post was awesome and I am still parsing it. However, I have been focusing a bit more on my outside world, and on applying what I am learning IRL. Since your long and thoughtful post about my sitch, I read NMMNG. I am also near completion of the 5 love languages for children. I will comment in a future post about what I am taking away from these books. Also, my friend's daughter is sick so I have been visiting her in the hospital daily. Passover starts tomorrow and I have a lot of preparation - cleaning my office and my room. I am still working out with my trainer - GAL. I have had alot of work obligations as well. I am also still trying to plan my S12s Bar-Mitzvah which is very fast approaching. We NEED to get those invitations out. Lastly, We have our first real mediation session next week (the first session stalled) and I needed to speak to my L to figure out how to prepare. I am still dreading it, but that does not excuse me from being more prepared. So, as you can see, I am pretty busy. I have had some rough days in between - I still feel, after all - but I am managing. A lot of people in my community know what my W is doing because she has been careless in her indiscretions. I was told last weekend that my community is 100% behind me. It's kind of validating considering the comment was really unsolicited.
I don't have time to go into great detail now, but I want you to know that I really took your advice to heart, and I want to reply thoughtfully to *all* the comments made after I solicited for advice. I just have not had the time. Please know that I am grateful for all of you.
To give you a brief update though: I told my wife that it is disrespectful of her to keep our beds together while she is carrying on with the OM. I separated the beds and this will be permanent. The following day, she sent me one of her typical deranged emails: "I wish I could take away your pain. I wish we never ever got to this point. I wish that when you walk into the room you see the old me. etc..." There is more, but I won't bore you. Suffice it to say, her words ring very hollow. I told her flatly that she has an addiction and the problem is in her. The next day, of course, it was like business as usual.
Undeterred, I am still working on my courage to tell her to leave the bedroom. If I do it, I want to say it right - as a true boundary. She exchanged 9000 texts in January - majority were with OM. I would cut off her phone access and make her buy her own - a great boundary - but I want to continue to access her phone records, so I have kept silent, for now.
that's it in brief. I will update and post further as soon as I have some more time.
My D9 asked me why my W does not wear her wedding rings any more. Then she said the worst thing that could happen to her is losing her parents. I asked her what she means and she said "if my parents were to get a divorce." She expressed her fear that her parents would be going away. Either she is super astute or my kids are talking amongst themselves, or both. I told her I would never move away and I will always be near her. Still, I am heartbroken.
I am exhausted. emotional day today. We are supposed to have mediation appt today. My W is trying to bail out because she can't find a baby sitter. It looks like after all the emotional preparation and anticipatory anxiety, I am not sure the appt the appt will even happen today. I spent hours making phone calls back and forth.
I had mentioned previously that I looked at Ws phone records and she is averaging over 6000-7000 texts per month. That is equivalent to 8-10 texts per hour around the clock. I am paying for this phone. I have been going back-and-forth-about cutting my Ws phone service off. I have not cut her off until now because I may need evidence later about her erratic behavior.
In light of this, I confronted my W today, telling her that I know what she is doing and that she has a serious problem. I told her that our kids need a mother. It did get heated. I told her I am ready and now eager to move ahead with the dissolution process.
Hello Rai - I'm out here! I'm sorry you are having a tough day, and hope you are both able to make it to the mediation appointment. It's hard to psych yourself up for these things only for them not to go ahead.
That's a lot of texts! As you say, you may want to consider letting her fund the phone. Presumably you have significant evidence already of her behaviour thus far.
You ask what are you doing? Well, I think you are doing okay in difficult circumstances. You have told your W that you can't tolerate this situation and will take steps towards dissolution because of this. I think that is fair enough in the circumstances.
Your W of course will do what she will - and what you see as a 'serious problem' - she doesn't. So the main thing is to take appropriate steps to protect yourself and your family. Whilst that is difficult to do, it may well help relieve some of the emotion for you.
I hope things start improving for you soon my friend. Things are tough right now, but there are brighter days ahead for you once you get through this.
((Rai))
T 13 M 7 Me 48 H 46 SS 15 BD 7.14 PA D final 5.16 (H filed)
We receive & we lose, and must try to achieve gratitude & embrace with whole hearts whatever of life that remains after the losses - Dubus
Hi RAI, I am new here too. I've learned in the brief time here that detaching from snooping is the best thing for YOUR sanity. What do you expect to find? You already know there is an affair. All it's doing is adding to your mental exhaustion.
It sounds like you already have plenty of evidence of her irrational behavior, no sense in dragging it on longer.
Married 4/20/99 Found out H cheating 3/15/15 Me45 H48 D14 S10
You do sound exhausted, RAI. No wonder. You're going through so much. There's the BD and then there is a lot to reflect upon your own nature. And in the middle of it all, you have to exert unprecedented control on your own behavior. Give yourself some credit. You're not doing so bad. Keep swimming.
You mention that you made tons of phone calls for the mediation appointment. I suspect it's the Nice Guy in you. When W told you that she can't hold the appointment, you could have told her "Well, if you can't let me know and make sure to call the mediator." It's a crisis of her own making: don't step in to bear the consequences. Remember that it's about re-creating attraction.
As for your talk with her, I just don't know. Are you telling us that the recent developments (texts) mean that YOU really want to move on with the dissolution process? That's perfectly fine. I'm just checking that you're not getting it to get a response out of her. I don't get all the details of your conversation today, but generally avoid getting heated - leave the room if necessary - and never make ultimatums that you can't enforce. That's very weak.
Finally, about the snooping. It's not all bad. It's good in the beginning to know what you are dealing with. Starsky309 might come over to give you his idea about it, because he advocates some information gathering. But once you know what is going on, to what extent, etc. then more snooping is just meant to gather the painful information. Give it up. So, do you feel you really know what's going on with your W?
M39 D6 D3 (at S) S 2014-09 D 2016-09
"You can't start a fire sitting around, crying over a broken heart" - Bruce Springsteen.
You are both totally right. I know that every time I have snooped I have felt worse afterwards. How it happened this time is that I was planning on cutting off Ws phone service - letting her pay for her own phone. So I had to call my carrier. While I was on the carriers website I could not help myself. I felt a very strong urge to check her usage. The whole day after that is a blur. Some days I am so detached and other days I fall into the same old trap. Uggh. Somebody stop the merry-go-round!
Toots,
I am reading and re-reading your post. I really appreciate your empathy and encouragement. It came at just the right time.
We did go ahead with the mediation appointment after all. I arranged for a baby sitter at the last minute to show my WW that I am serious about proceeding with dissolution. At first she was asking me to set her free. Now, I wish she would set me free. Unfortunately, D is a total misnomer. Instead of being free, I will be legally shackled to my STBXW for as long as we live.
I won't bore anyone with the specifics of my appointment, but it seems like every option re: shared parenting and finances is terrible. Every decision feels like a lose-lose situation. If I had a choice, I would have avoided D like the plague. I can't understand how someone would willingly choose D.
Originally Posted By: Mozza
Are you telling us that the recent developments (texts) mean that YOU really want to move on with the dissolution process? That's perfectly fine. I'm just checking that you're not getting it to get a response out of her.
Mozza,
I don't know anymore. you can probably see my ambivalence in the above paragraphs. On one hand, I have had enough. It is very hard to be in the same house as her and keep up a PMA - so I want to proceed. On the other hand, I also feel like if I say "bring it on", she will begin to understand that it is no longer a fantasy. There are going to be real emotional and financial consequences - so I want a response. Lastly, I love my children so much that it kills me to think about what they are about to go through - as if the last two years weren't enough. Honestly, if I could do anything to prevent this from happening, I would. Clearly, I do not control my W and the only thing I can do is detach. So, I want to proceed and I don't want to proceed.
BTW, My ego is still smarting as well. It still hurts to see how eager she is to D. It is hard to fathom how much she dislikes me.
I also wanted to address you lengthy post to me from last week. I have read NMMNG. I recognize certain aspects of a "nice guy" in me, but I really don't feel I have that much in common. I don't seem to match any of the Nice Guys that Glover describes.
I came from a very stable home with emotionally available parents. I really tried to find some instance where I felt abandoned. Nada. My father was very present. My mother was not controlling. They got along fabulously until my fathers dying day. I don't have any shameful habits or secrets: There was a time I would surf to porn sites, but I never hid it from my wife and it became less and less frequent. I never harbored guilt over it. My relationship with my W, pre-A, did not resemble any of the cases that Glover describes. My wife was not a fixer-upper. She was not difficult to please. She never claimed that I was not emotionally available. I did not go out of my way to please her. I have no problem relating to other men. I don't hide my mistakes. I don't think I was passive aggressive (pre-A). I don't "give to get" (covert contracts). Intimacy was good. There was a time when my W was less interested in ML, but that had improved drastically. I am NOT monogamous to my mother. I don't feel like my life should be perfect or that I am owed anything for being nice.
Where I do fit the Nice guy mold? trying to always do the right thing. Sometimes I would go out of my way to help others. I do seek approval from others - sometimes, but not always. I sometimes neglect myself. I did try to be different from my father - I felt he was not strict enough - but I don't think that is what Glover had in mind. Do I have toxic shame? I might call it low self-esteem, but maybe? I did refer to myself as a parents dream and low-maintenance. I do worry about putting my needs before the children, but I think this is mostly post-A, as I fear my W will hold it against me regarding custody.
So I may be an "I'm so good" nice guy, but I am not convinced. I really tried to read the book with an open mind. I am just not feeling it. If you pinned me down, I would say that I have some nice guy qualities, but I think if I were to compare myself to the general population of men, I would fall somewhere in the middle of the curve.
RAI
P.S. I don't do laundry. I was washing my gym clothes for the first time - EVER! - to detach from my W. I found her undies when I emptied the dryer.
It is a rare long night of posting, so I am going to end by thanking everyone who posted to my thread when I really needed it (vis a vis, setting boundaries with my W). In particular, HeavyD, lost18, raliced, T0324, Mozza, Jim0987, Fogg, and Wonka.
Thanks for your support, kick in the pants, empathy, observations etc...
I still am working on those boundaries. I feel a bit more empowered to set them, but I am wondering about the utility at this point if we are heading into dissolution. I am not sure I want to save my M. I don't even think I could if I wanted to. So what is the purpose of kicking her out of the marital BR if we will be separated in due time?
RAI
P.S. Smothy I am glad you found my thread empowering. It is heartening that good can come from even the direst of situations.
Not sure I have much advice, but I totally get where and why you are at the place between wanting to save your M and wanting out. I go back and forth with that constantly. I want to save my M but I just don't know it will ever happen, and if it does I'm not sure it will look the way I would like it to. A loving, trusting R with 2 people who give to each other and truly enjoy being together. I guess maybe I'm not doing something right because I feel like I'm giving up a big part of myself when I'm supposes to be working on myself. Don't get me wrong, I am trying to work on myself too, but the situation makes me feel like I'm giving up what I want (a loving R) to save the one I have. Hope that makes sense.
I was reading another thread and the DBer was also back and forth in regard to wanting to save their M or give up. Cadet gave the advice that it doesn't matter what side of the fence you're on right now, work on yourself. If the time comes when the WA wants to reconcile, then you take your love box out of the closet, dust it off and decide what you want.
So, I guess along those lines I would say to work on becoming the best person you can be for YOU and your kids. Don't say or do anything to your W that would take you int he opposite direction of R if you may want it someday. I know somebody else could say that better but I'm sure you get the gist.
As far as the BR, the purpose of kicking her out is for you. You're well-being, sanity and standing up for yourself. If you feel it is in your best interest to allow her to stay then let her stay. Still don't have much advice on that, I've been tempted several times to tell my H to move out....the best I have is to do what feels right for you.
Me-44 (45) H- 50 (51) M-'96
S-18(20)D-15(17)D-12(14)
BD Feb 2014 (he works overseas) home Oct(sep rooms) (EAs possible Pa's unconfirmed) insists wants D through July 2015 no more talk of D since
Cadet and Lost18 are right: It doesn't matter. Unless you know you don't want the M, then leave your options open. As I just wrote on my thread (sitch 7 months in), I stopeed even wondering if I want to save the M or not because it doesn't change my actions. What I do in DB is what I should be doing anyway, to spare myself a lot of trouble, to protect my dignity and my self-respect.
As for the MBR, the purpose is not only to restore your sanity, it is also to gain her respect. Perhaps it will be clearer if the roles are reversed. Imagine you have an A, your W knows about it and yet she still tries to placate you and avoid rocking the boat, letting you stay in the marital bed for instance. Now imagine the opposite: she calmly tells you: "I don't want to lose you, but I will have none of that. You leave the marital bed as long as this lasts." Which one of the two do you respect and love?
Another thing that I repeat a lot to newcomers: it ain't over til it's over. And even then, it isn't over. Don't think that because you're headed to dissolution, your M is over. Don't you think that people who saved their M just before signing their D papers also thought that it was over at your stage? And people even get back together and remarry after D, which can be a good cleaning treatment for a relationship. If it isn't clear to you yet, read more of the success stories at the top of my thread. For instance, T0324 just had her D proceedings completely canceled yesterday. Her sitch lasted 16 months and was a sure D in her mind at some point.
So stop obsessing about what will be or not. You just don't know. You don't. Do the right thing and leave your options open.
M39 D6 D3 (at S) S 2014-09 D 2016-09
"You can't start a fire sitting around, crying over a broken heart" - Bruce Springsteen.
I'm glad to see you back - I got a little worried when you dropped off there for awhile.
Lost and Mozza have given you some good advice regarding your ambivalence about saving the marriage. I would add that no matter what becomes of your legal marriage, you will always be family with her because you share children and will one day have mutual grandchildren. All the things that you are doing here, the enforcing of boundaries, the self improvement and GAL will help with that relationship as well.
To me there is a distinct difference between deciding to proceed or cooperate with the dissolution/divorce, which is often an entirely practical and logical choice which must be done for the financial security of the LBS and children, and making a decision about whether or not you are "done" with the relationship. And again, you will always have some relationship with her, there is no hurry on your "decision" about what you want that relationship to look like.
I know that for many, once the divorce is done, they are done. Obviously, I don't fall into that camp. You'll have to choose what is right for you.
Sorry for the long lapse in posting. It seems G-d is ratcheting up the stress a bit because he knows I can handle it. To quote my cousin: "If he brings you to it, he'll get you through it." Or, if you prefer a line from the movie "Unbroken", "If you can take it, you can make it."
Just a few posts back I was worried about Passover, being on service in the hospital, and my S12s Bar-Mitzvah. Passover came and went - uneventfully, surprisingly. I am currently still on service (taking care of the inpatients in the hospital - high-stress for me), but will be going "off-service" soon. So time is passing. I hope patient care is not being compromised because I am living in a state of distraction these days. I know my phone messages are piling up.
My now-S13s Bar-mitzvah is in less than 2 weeks and I am worried that the whole thing is going to fall apart. The invitations went out way too late. Guests are asking why. So much planning: catering, home hospitality for out-of-towners, speeches to write, more I can't anticipate or think of right now. S13 deserves a great celebration and it hurts me that it is going to be less than he deserves because I cannot get my act together and because my W has become a teenager herself. To add insult to injury my Mother is hospitalized with a heart problem, my sister was also briefly hospitalized due to a back injury while caring for my mother, and my other sister is now on her way to the emergency room for what I fear may be a serious lung problem. I am sad that my mother will not be at the Bar-Mitzvah and I am beginning to fear that a lot of family will not be there. I recognize that the celebration will be what it will be and it is not really in my control, but I am very worried about it. I wish my fellow DBers could come and support me and join in the celebrations. You have all been great when I have needed it. There are so many of you.
Rant/vent: I am still having a terrible time detaching. To quote Mozza, I am still "a crier who's a ball of hurt" - not very attractive. My only saving grace is that W has not seen too much of it. I still keep up a PMA at home and have spent a lot of time with the kids when at home (ran 3 miles with S13 yesterday). I did have an outburst on Sat night: I am just so mad at her. I am sick of being disrespected in my own home: I am sick of her clearly and obviously receiving texts from OM while right in from of me. So I told her so. I am sick of her pretending that she is not having an A. It is so blatant that the whole community knows. Still at the same time, I hold on to a hope that perhaps her R with OM is falling apart and that she will come to her senses. Ugghh! I know she won't!!!!!! I wish I could just move on already.
Well, I finally took a step in the right direction.
Last night, at around 11:30 PM, just as my W was getting out of the shower, she was met with her first rude awakening. I was waiting for her in our bedroom. I told her we have to talk. Then I told her that her ongoing A with OM is disrespectful to me and to our M and that it is confusing for me an the kids. Then I told her to move out of the marital BR. She was obviously taken aback. I was calm and cool and collected. I made eye contact the whole time and did not shake at all. She tried to engage me in further debate and almost reflexively tried to deny the A again. I did not bite. I just reiterated my stance. She asked why I should not leave the BR. I told her that I was faithful to that BR all along, thus I am not leaving the BR. She asked "why now?". I replied that there is never a perfect time, but I need this now. She asked "what will we tell the children?". I told her that that is for her to figure out. I am going to tell the children something that they already know: that we are not getting along. I have feared this all along, but I think I want the kids to see me standing up for myself and respecting myself more than I want to avoid awkwardness.
Eventually she agreed. She then asked if she could move out the following night - it was late and she did not want to change the sheets and make the bed in basement - How I wish I had thought of making the bed in advance!!! So I acquiesced, but asked her to give me her word that she would move out of the BR tomorrow night. I am sure she is going to talk to her cheerleaders and enablers and may resist tonight. But I will hold her to it.
This morning I feel like a man that she would be crazy to leave.
RAI
P.S. I want to thank everyone who posted to my thread encouraging me to take this step for myself.
I have been threatening to list this DBers songbook for some time. Here is my preliminary list. There is something for everyone: songs about R, A, pain, fear, detaching, PMA, encouragement, piecing, love, hope, and, of course, a Conga.
I have listened to every one of these songs and each has potentially therapeutic value. I have listed songs by contributor. If you have a song that you feel is particular a propos to your sitch or to DB, feel free to make other suggestions.
RAI “Stand Tall” by Burton Cummings (for the LBS, especially when your ego is hurting very badly) "Letting Go" by Straight Lines (for those have trouble detaching) “I'm Not Down” by The Clash (punk equivalent of “I will survive”) “Train In Vain” by The Clash (kind of the opposite of Ben E. King’s “stand by me” – you didn’t stand by me) "It's not right, but it's ok" by Whitney Houston (If you like, but are getting tired of, Gloria Gaynor’s “I will survive”) I've got no strings to hold me down - from Pinocchio, Music and lyrics by Leigh Harline and Ned Washington (dropping the rope) "Don't shed a tear" by Paul Carrack (rebuilding your life because YOU are worth it)
Starsky "Best of the Guess Who" album, especially Side 1: "Undun," "These Eyes," "Laughing," "American Woman," "Star Baby" (classic songs, ‘nuff said) "I'm Scared" by Burton Cummings (Fear – the DBers first hurdle) "You Ain't Seen Nothing Yet" Burton Cummings duet with Randy Bachman (non- BTO version)
Card29 “Son of Man” by Phil Collins (upbeat and catchy – to get out of a funk) “Two Worlds” by Phil Collins (Faith, trust, fate, love, strength, life, tears, hope – strung into a song – not bad, Phil) "I'm Not the Only One" by Sam Smith (caution: about infidelity – may cause some triggering)
Lost18 "Just give me a reason" by Pink (How did our R get to this state?) “a little bit stronger" by Sara Evans (It takes a lot of strength to DB)
BW911 Broken Together” by Casting crowns (about relationships, maybe piecing?)
25yearsmlc I will survive (mandatory for any playlist - duh!) I will love again (There is light at the end of the tunnel)
Toots Conga del fuego, conducted by Gustavo Dudamel (the world would be a better place if we would all just Conga!) “Let him go, let him tarry” by Ruby Murray (amongst others – many versions) (Detaching, Irish style)
Koalada "you won't let me" by Rachael Yamagata (unrequited love) "has it happened yet" by Rachael Yamagata (the pain experienced by the LBS - pre-detachment, of course) “When I’m Alone” by Lissie (the shock experienced by LBS)
Raliced Theme song to The Magnificent Seven - composed and conducted by Elmer Bernstein ("no one can be sad or gloomy while tapping their foot to that one" - Raliced loved it so much, she named her thread after it.)
FANTASTIC! You've done so well last night by kicking her out of the MBR. I really liked your answer to "Why now?" It tells her that you're unpredictable, that consequences will fall on her when you see fit (and life catches up with her). The only thing I would have done differently is to make sure she leaves right away. You left your position of power for a detail. In 10 minutes, her bed would have been made. Believe me, she lost more than 10 minutes of sleep from this (and so did you, I bet). Your inner Nice Guy played a trick on you.
Regardless, a fantastic step for you. And I was coming here after your previous message to note that your inner Nice Guy had a strong hold on you, but you've surprised me. Well done, really.
Now deliver tonight!
M39 D6 D3 (at S) S 2014-09 D 2016-09
"You can't start a fire sitting around, crying over a broken heart" - Bruce Springsteen.
Cadet, I have made it through everything else so far - even when I didn't believe I could - so I guess I will just keep pluggin' away.
Mozza, thanks for the words of encouragement. I do think my inner nice guy accepted the concession. I know I gave her time to regain her balance. Regardless, I will remain undeterred.
thanks for stopping by. Things have been very hectic. My mother should be getting out of the hospital today - Thank G-d. I am not sure what prompted it, but my W called my mother to ask how she is doing. After not speaking to her for a year, it was awkward, to say the least. My mother loved her DIL like a true D and is so hurt by her actions. The conversation was very superficial, from what I was told by my mother. W is not just divorcing me, she is divorcing my whole family. We are all reeling from her self-centered behavior.
On another note, LAST NIGHT WAS THE FIRST NIGHT MY W DID NOT SLEEP IN OUR BR. I don't expect her to ever sleep there again unless she changes her ways drastically. It was a bit strange, but liberating. I feel a bit more detached. Let's hope that is a sustained feeling.
I see that you are doing pretty well with your H. Complimenting him and shedding your previous persona. Kudos to you. I know it is hard, but stop snooping. I should probably take my own advice.
Thanks Fogg. You hear it over and over in the forum, but it is sooo hard to detach when you are under the same roof. My wife spent the last hour or so texting OM. Then she comes over to me at 11PM, while I am in the middle of doing work on my computer, and wants help planning for my S13s Bar-mitzvah.
I have such a difficult time not being snide and rude towards her. It takes so much effort to just make eye contact with her. I have such a distaste and negative feelings towards her whenever she is near me. I know I should try to be civil and friendly like I would treat a stranger. I do this all the time at work - for instance when I am caring for a patient or family that I am not too fond of - Yet, I can't seem to fake it with my W. I am a bit ashamed of it, but my disdain for her oozes through my every pore. That is why I choose to avoid her most of the day. I treat her like she is invisible. I know this is not consistent with DB best practices. I know that this will not make me more attractive and that it will not give her any incentive to end her A. I know that this behavior may alienate her children from her. But I also know that my ego is still hurting badly. She acts so normal - as if nothing is happening.
reminder to self: I REALLY HAVE TO STOP LOOKING AT HER PHONE USAGE!!!! Why does the LBS do this? Why the morbid curiosity? From where does that powerful urge to spy and snoop come from? It certainly does not help.
I need a lot of help. Thanks for listening, whoever is out there.
If we could all take our own advice we wouldn't need each other! It's easier to see what "should" be done in a situation that we are not attached to....ahhh detachement!
Glad you finally told her to leave the MB and that you are feeling good about it!
Me-44 (45) H- 50 (51) M-'96
S-18(20)D-15(17)D-12(14)
BD Feb 2014 (he works overseas) home Oct(sep rooms) (EAs possible Pa's unconfirmed) insists wants D through July 2015 no more talk of D since
Not good, GREAT! It is the first boundary I have set. Even better: my W invited a houseguest to stay over the weekend without asking me. So Friday night she returned to the BR. I was not deterred. I told her she could not stay. I kept repeating my boundary. She stormed out like a teenager. I think she just finds one of the kids beds to sleep in. I don't think the kids mind too much. In fact they probably rather like having their mom sleep with them. I think it is dysfunctional. There is a guest room in the basement that she could use (when there are no guests) but I think she is still trying to prevent the kids from noticing that I kicked her out.
I found an awesome thread, a success story, that I think everyone should read. It illustrates DB and is relatively brief. I read the entire thread in about 3 hours. It is by Onguard. Just amazing. His writing is succinct and both his mistakes and successes are illustrated so well. It gave me hope. Here is the link: Onguards thread I think EVERY LBS should read it.
Weekends are generally tough because we are under the same roof, but I have to say that since the weather improved, this weekend was much much better. Did some running, playing with the kids, took the kids for ice cream. More importantly, I made a conscious effort to not become preoccupied with W. She went out on Sunday night and I did not wonder for a second whom she was with. I did not look at the clock to seen when she is coming back. I did not snoop through her drawers. Most importantly, I did not look at her text usage to see when she texted OM. I regret this every time I do it.
I have not looked at W phone record since last week, and I am better for it. I think I will continue to NOT look at it. I will eventually have to look at it because L suggested I have a means to document just how much time W spends texting. Also, Some of you recommend having a hidden means of verifying WWs actions, in case there is an effort to R. But for now, I am going to limit it to once per month.
I am still reeling from OnGuards awesome thread in the Infidelity section. I suppose it is because his sitch is so similar to mine, and succeeded. One difference is that OM dumped his W, but anything can happen. Either way, I still need to work more on myself and GAL.
I am really going back and forth about some boundaries. One the boundaries that is clearly spelled out is cutting off WWs cell phone. It makes perfect sense because I should not need to finance her ongoing A.
the problem - as usual - is FEAR. I am afraid that if the D mediation fails and we go to court that I will no longer have the evidence that she continues to communicate with OM an absurd amount of time during the day. Once I no longer have access to her phone, she can always claim that she is reformed and that she no longer texts OM. My sister - who has been really supportive the whole time - strongly cautioned against giving up my access to W's phone records. She also spoke to another L who corroborated this stance. From a DB perspective, I really want to lay down that boundary, but from a legal perspective, I worry.
The other boundary is the credit card. This month I saw a $650 charge for women's apparel. Later there was $360 credit. So I am not sure whether Ws use of the card is legit - perhaps a dress for the Bar-Mitzvah - or whether she is over spending. Also, I don't know what else she will charge to the card. Should I wait until she does do something reckless with the card?
It felt good to state my first boundary (out of MBR) and have it stick. I just don't know how to proceed.
I was re-reading the lighthouse story. Part of "being the lighthouse", is protecting children from OP.
The OM is around in the neighborhood during the day and also comes to my children's school. Last year, he brought my D8 home from the bus stop. It was a very cold day, but my W was going to be there 5 minutes later. In retrospect, W may have asked OM to picker D8 up. My W obviously saw nothing wrong with this - and said so to me and our Rabbi.
Obviously, contact between the OM and my children is inappropriate. How does one set this particular boundary? More importantly, how does one enforce this boundary. Anyone with any experience?
First of all - I don't know that this is really a "boundary" issue, at least the way the term is used here. Usually when we talk about boundaries here- it's in regard to how we allow people to treat us. That's not really the same thing as "I don't want you to expose our kids to your AP". Others may see it differently.
Second- your wife and all the WASs on this board have lost all reason on this topic. It doesn't matter that there is a mountain of easily available data that points out how bad it is for kids. It doesn't matter that their own friends and family think its a terrible idea. It doesn't matter that once upon a time they themselves thought it was horrible when someone they knew did it. You can call it "affair fog" - but they have crossed a line and no longer think rationally on this one.
Third - this board is littered with people who agonized over this same problem. Some of them had very strong voices and confidently asserted that there was no way their WAS would do that. Guess What? They almost always find out that no matter what oaths were sworn, the WAS did whatever the heck they wanted to do anyway. I've been reading these boards for 9 months now. I can tell you it happens over and over and over and over.
In my case - the first time I saw my STBX after he basically ran off - I was very amenable to most things- but I made it clear that he was not to bring my children around his girlfriend. I believe the phrasing I used was "That is the one thing that will make this situation incendiary". He agreed emphatically that he wouldn't do that. But of course, he was already secretly living with her and introduced them that very weekend.
I had some suspicions for a while that he denied with righteous indignation. When it finally came out two months later, I have to say that it was a deal breaker for me. I began to completely cooperate and even drive the divorce.
Now she gives my daughters massages. Not a thing I can do about it.
My only hope here is that he might eventually lose this girlfriend and then I might be able to have a conversation about the advisability of introducing kids to romantic interests too soon, while he is somewhat sane and rational.
Sorry to be a downer, RAI. Can you stop it? Maybe if there is some consequence that she cares about.
Thanks, Raliced. Not just today, but for all the times you have been looking out for me.
I surmise, then, that such a boundary (for lack of a better term) is not enforceable - as it was not in the case of your STBX.
It is just another reminder that I cannot control my W, that she will do whatever she pleases, and, most importantly, that I really need to move forward with D.
On another note, My S13 Bar-Mitzvah is in a few days. I am worried it is going to be quite awkward. There are going to be individuals from my side of the family who know about Ws A, and individuals from Ws side who know about her A. Then there are going to be those who are entirely oblivious to the whole thing. They are all going to converge onto my home. My BIL is a L and has been counselling W. How am I even going to look at him.
I have no idea what is going to happen. I hope it does not get hostile. I am also not sure what precautions to take, if any. I am feeling pretty nervous about the whole thing.
On the kids and OP, raliced said it all and eloquently. I can only add my own story as an example. It started, like everyone else, with WW denying with outrage that there was anybody, in her heart or in her pants.
OM is a colleague of WW. He was introduced to the kids as a friend during the move. He would come in to assemble the furniture, making them participate. He would bring chocolate eggs to my kids (fun fact: chocolate was a big no-no to WW before BD). At some point, the kids would tell me that he was there 4-5 days a week. Then that he was there in the morning ("because he wakes up very early to come and see us!") and then I finally got the email from WW saying it was official between them (my entire response: "Thanks for telling me."). Then the kids would let me know that they went to do the same activities that we used to do as a family (swimming pool, swings at the park). My WW even asked D7 for a drawing of D3, D7, her and OM (ouch!). Then the kids let me know that he was officially moving in, in January, three months after she left me ("to be alone").
Now they tell me little details (I never ask) like how he takes them to the bathroom, pick them up at school or how he gets upset (how much?) when they're noisy (I don't like that he's upset, but I like that he's facing the reality of having kids - he's 29). Now, WW and OM are taking my kids to the beach this summer, in one of the most beautiful place on Earth, realizing a project that WW and I had for years. I don't like it, but so what?
How could I have blocked him from seeing my kids? How could I now? There's just no way to control. Of course, we think or know that these R will just fail, but to them, it's the beginning of the rest of their lives with someone they love, someone who's compatible. It makes no sense to keep the kids away from this new life partner. Also, they are overwhelmed, like we are, and I'm sure they want the help. See: it would make absolutely no sense to them to keep the kids away. You'd look like you're not facing reality, the "new normal".
I see an upside to not intervening. First, there is the basic DB principle to get out of the way, so as not to romanticize their R ("us against the evil world, our love will triumph!") and let it be the boring thing that's not worth a look. Second, let OM feel the full blunt of taking care of kids. Kids do not add to romance when they're not your own, unless you're a very mature person in a good place, not someone driven by desire and selfishness, as they most likely are at the moment. But that's my take right now: I withdraw as much as possible and let reality deal with them, without being responsible for any of it.
raliced: I'm very interested in the research on the detrimental impact of exposing kids to OP. Any pointers? My instinct tells me it's no big deal, but you know me enough to know that I will want to know what the research says and will bow to it.
M39 D6 D3 (at S) S 2014-09 D 2016-09
"You can't start a fire sitting around, crying over a broken heart" - Bruce Springsteen.
RAI, no words of wisdom, just my support. I too made the mistake of stating what I thought was a boundary (no communicating with OP while me or the girls are home, no way I can enforce it because there is not way to prove who he is texting) but he knows how I feel.
I'm sure most would advise against it but you could let her know that until the D is final or you are no longer living together you don't want your kids around OM as it is inappropriate. It probably wont change anything especially if they have already been around him, however, for me sometimes I just like to have my voice heard....well, probably not heard, but at least get my feelings out.
Me-44 (45) H- 50 (51) M-'96
S-18(20)D-15(17)D-12(14)
BD Feb 2014 (he works overseas) home Oct(sep rooms) (EAs possible Pa's unconfirmed) insists wants D through July 2015 no more talk of D since
Your last post was one of the most sobering posts I have ever read on this site. On the one hand, I feel terrible for you because of how your WW is acting. On the other hand, I have a lot of respect for how you are handling it. Intellectually, I see what you are saying, but emotionally and viscerally, the thought of OM replacing me in our family makes me want to vomit. I do see your point about the upsides: de-romanticizing the A and and making their lives humdrum to hasten the reality check. Nevertheless, it is still a very depressing thought. Aside from breaking up my family, OM is also a very creepy individual. I don't think anyone in our community trusts him - including those that don't know about the A. He does not have a legal record, to my knowledge, but he could be involved in something illegal. I just have no way of knowing. He is just really creepy. I know I sound like a broken record, I just so wish there was some way to keep him away from my children. Not a lot of justice in this world.
but you could let her know that until the D is final or you are no longer living together you don't want your kids around OM as it is inappropriate.
I think I said something to that effect in the past. I don't think I am going to repeat it. I know it will fall on deaf ears, and I feel emasculated enough right now. It could just be my PTSD hypervigilance/paranoia, but I suspect he already drops by my house during the day. The thought makes me sick to my stomach.
I am even more worried that OM will show up at my S13's Bar-Mitzvah. It would give him a lot of satisfaction: I don't know too much about other sitchs, but I really think that OM, in this case, has a vendetta against me. It is not only about his limerance and infatuation with my W - if it is at all. I really suspect that he wants to stick it to me in some way. I know OM very well. Him and his wife were at our house all the time. He seduced my W over a a span of years - right under my trusting nose. I truly wonder whether all of his actions on some level are motivated by inflating his ego by deflating mine and profaning everything I value. Exercising control over my W may just be another manifestation of this.
Regarldess, I think this is one more thing about which I will have to say "Let go and let G-d".
At our last mediation, my STBXW suggested that we keep the kids in the home for the first year and we (the parents) alternate living in the home - one week on/one week off. Does anyone know of this arrangement.
To me, it seems to make it impossible to have a clean break with my W, and makes it difficult for me to detach from my W - prolonging my agony. But it could be better for the kids.
Any thoughts? Has anyone tried this arrangement? I would be curious how it felt, from a DB/detachment perspective.
RAI - I believe the arrangement you are describing is called "bird nesting". I'm not aware of anyone here recently with that arrangement - but you can google it to read up on it.
BTW- I wouldn't completely rule out the possibility that you might be able to keep OM away from kids. Divorce and child custody are very local. I think in the vast majority of places you wouldn't be able to do anything - but it certainly wouldn't to run it by your lawyer and explore options.
Do your best to let go of this during your son's Bar Mitzvah. It's a bout your son. I know its galling, but OM can only bug you if you let him.
Wow...I'm sorry you have to deal with that. What person goes to the home of the person they are having an affair with. What a POS! Sorry...I know you know that. Do other people in the family know about the affair and who it's with? If so, maybe you can have them intervene if he does show up at S13's Bar Mitzvah, politely ask him to leave without making a scene. That way you can focus on your son and not worry about him.
But you're right about not repeating it to her, waste of time.
Me-44 (45) H- 50 (51) M-'96
S-18(20)D-15(17)D-12(14)
BD Feb 2014 (he works overseas) home Oct(sep rooms) (EAs possible Pa's unconfirmed) insists wants D through July 2015 no more talk of D since
I really think that OM, in this case, has a vendetta against me. It is not only about his limerance and infatuation with my W - if it is at all. I really suspect that he wants to stick it to me in some way. (...) I truly wonder whether all of his actions on some level are motivated by inflating his ego by deflating mine and profaning everything I value.
There is a lot of mindreading in this and some narcissism (you make his love life about you), but let's say you are right: How great is that?! If so, he has given you a lot of power over him. He will feed at your pain and reactions. If you DB like a jedi, then you will deprive him of oxygen. If you make it look like you're moving on and are happy, you'll quickly suggest to him that he's stuck with your leftovers, rather than your most prized possession. If you stand up like a man to your cheating W, you'll look like a man with principles, while he has none. Do you see what I mean?
By the way, I want to nominate you for the DB Move of the Week, for when you told your WW she wasn't coming back in the marital bed even if you had guests. It sure sounds like a calculated move on her part to force your hand, but you stood firm. I am so very impressed with this.
Team RAI!
M39 D6 D3 (at S) S 2014-09 D 2016-09
"You can't start a fire sitting around, crying over a broken heart" - Bruce Springsteen.
Great points Mozza! RAI I believe there is a success story about a guy who remained really good friends with his W through her relationship with OM. The OM eventually got so jealous of their relationship he became a needy, clingy jealous guy and the W dumped him and therefore it was a reconciled marriage!
Me-44 (45) H- 50 (51) M-'96
S-18(20)D-15(17)D-12(14)
BD Feb 2014 (he works overseas) home Oct(sep rooms) (EAs possible Pa's unconfirmed) insists wants D through July 2015 no more talk of D since
Raliced, thanks for the info about bird nesting. I have been busy but did a little more reading about it. I am wondering who pays for the mortgage during that period of time. Do we have to refinance? What if W damages the home during this period? Sounds like it could really put me at risk. I can imagine why it is not very common. Also it may be easier for the kids, but it forces me to remain very involved with my W. I still can't believe this is happening. I am still pretty paralyzed by uncertainty. I know this is preventing me from moving forward. But now that the Bar-Mitzvah is over, I will move forward. I must because I must because I must. Ugghh.
Lost18, Thanks for your concern re: intrusiveness of OM. I will probably post about my S13s Bar-Mitzvah in another post. regarding your idea that remain friends with W to make OM jealous - I just don't see it happening. I am trying very hard to remain cordial and civil - and not doing a great job of it. But I am still trying to improve things.
Mozza,
Originally Posted By: Mozza
Originally Posted By: RAI
I really think that OM, in this case, has a vendetta against me. It is not only about his limerance and infatuation with my W - if it is at all. I really suspect that he wants to stick it to me in some way. (...) I truly wonder whether all of his actions on some level are motivated by inflating his ego by deflating mine and profaning everything I value.
There is a lot of mindreading in this and some narcissism (you make his love life about you)
I agree with you to an extent. I agree with you that regardless of whether her thinks about me or not, it will give him more grief if I "DB like a jedi". (awesome way to put it, BTW). But you should know that there have been instances where I have felt threatened by him. I have documented numerous occasions where I have been out running (my best GAL activity) and he has buzzed by me in his car. Without elaborating - I can if you want - he does it in a way that is much less likely to be coincidental. He does not live in my neighborhood anymore and I don't announce when I am running until the last minute. My wife could be texting him. There are some streets (mine included) that do not have sidewalks. He may not be trying to destroy me, but if he is, I don't want to get this one wrong.
Thanks for the "DB move of the week" nomination. I don't think my W would dare sleep in our BR again (unless I would accept her back - ain't happenin' any time soon). She did not try over the whole Bar-Mitzvah weekend.
I would absolutely not consider a birds nesting arrangement with your wife. I have seen many cases with this and 90% of them are a disaster. It will end up as the ultimate cake eating arrangement for your wife, all to your detriment. This is just going to prolong and exacerbate the torture you are in, and your kids too, just so your WW doesnt have to face consequences.
As far as your kids and OM is concerned, its true you cant control what your WW does but you can still take measures to protect your kids. In my experience, the most detrimental thing for kids emotional well-being during a situation like this is dishonesty and uncertainty. Your wife is obviously being dishonest with them, but by helping her keep her secret, so are you. If they dont hear the truth from you, then they will hear lies from your WW and OM.
You stated "in my experience". I am curious what your experience is. Would you be willing to share?
I read some of your posts. You have been lurking for quite some time. Your advice seems very reasonable. However, I like to know where you are coming from - emotionally and experientially. It helps *me* process information I am receiving. Have you thought about starting a thread describing your sitch? I have seen Mr. Bond request this of others sometime.
Of course, you do not have to share your experience with me or anyone else on this board. But I was just wondering. Are you a LBS? an attorney? a WAS? Interested 3rd party?
Regardless, thanks for the advice. You are my first vote against "bird nesting".
Bar-Mitzvah was awesome. S13 (G-d bless him) did a great job. I am so proud of him. A real young man. Sang beautifully, spoke beautifully. Spent time with his family.
I am also proud of myself. I was the "act as if" king. My Ws family were all in town. It could have been much more intense, but I kept it light. I made the whole weekend about my S13. I had a chance to strut my stuff a bit too, to let my W and her family of enablers see what kind of person I truly am. I did not give them the satisfaction of seeing the bitter, frightened boy inside. OM did not rear his ugly head once. On the contrary, someone actually approached me, told me that they know about the A, that they support me 100%. The only reason everyone is acting like everything is normal is because everyone is taking their cues from me. When the D happens, I think most of the community is going to shun her. I cannot control their response or reactions, but I think it may be a very sobering consequence for my W because she currently derives a lot of support from the community.
I have still not checked my Ws texting record. I feel so much better off. I have also not looked in her drawers. She has not made any further moves to try to get back into the BR. I went out last night with a friend and I hope to go out again tonight. Trying to GAL. succeeding? Maybe? I feel like the tables are slowly turning and the star inside me is emerging. I am DB'ing!
On another related note, something strange happened. Over the weekend, someone snapped a picture of us together. He posted it to FB. I look really good in the pic, and my W looks - I feel bad saying it, but - ugly and kind of pathetic. I blew up the photo and cropped myself out of it. Then I stared at that picture of my W long and hard, and for the first time in 1.5 years, I feel sorry for my W. It is a transient fleeting feeling every time I look at that photo. I thought of sending it to my sister, and I could not bring myself to do it. W probably saw the photo on FB too. I wonder how she felt when she saw it. I think she will eventually realize that her physical assets will not endure, and that without values and achievements, and with a disrupted family as her legacy, she will not have much left. A real shame. Unfortunately, that is her choice and her tragic mistake.
Bar-Mitzvah was awesome. S13 (G-d bless him) did a great job. I am so proud of him. A real young man. Sang beautifully, spoke beautifully. Spent time with his family.
MAZEL TOV!
I am sure that was a high point for all involved. Bask in the glow for a little while.
My now-S13s Bar-mitzvah is in less than 2 weeks and I am worried that the whole thing is going to fall apart. The invitations went out way too late. Guests are asking why. So much planning: catering, home hospitality for out-of-towners, speeches to write, more I can't anticipate or think of right now. S13 deserves a great celebration and it hurts me that it is going to be less than he deserves because I cannot get my act together and because my W has become a teenager herself.
Originally Posted By: May 14
Bar-Mitzvah was awesome. S13 (G-d bless him) did a great job. I am so proud of him. A real young man. Sang beautifully, spoke beautifully. Spent time with his family.
I am also proud of myself.
I'm serious: remember this next time you face a big challenge. You are more capable than you might realize at your darkest hour.
M39 D6 D3 (at S) S 2014-09 D 2016-09
"You can't start a fire sitting around, crying over a broken heart" - Bruce Springsteen.
I am sure that was a high point for all involved. Bask in the glow for a little while.
Reality will be back in a while.
Thanks, Cadet. As for the glow - I am sure you remember it with your S27. As for the reality, I am bracing for it - even dreading it, but I feel pretty good today.
Mozza, you are awesome. Very clever juxtaposing my own words like that. And you are 100% correct. I did not get to where I am today by being incapable. I definitely needed the reminder and will cherish this very elegant one. I will definitely return to this post.
It is amazing how anxiety about the future can feel so palpable and real, but then once you have gone through it, it turns out to have been just smoke and mirrors.
I also wonder why I worry so much all the time. I get that anxiety and worry do serve a purpose. Were it not for these, I would never have studied for exams or been prepared for anything. They can be great motivators. The problems is that I (and perhaps you) tend take it to the extreme and paint such a bleak picture. It is hard to enjoy life and be in the moment when we do this.
Thank you for sharing in my joy. I really do wish my fellow DBers could have been present to share in the celebration. You are such an awesome bunch and heck, we could all use a little celebration!
Let's see if I can capitalize on the momentum.
BTW, for the record, it may not be a popular opinion and a lot of folks on your thread disagree, but I do not think you need to confront your H. I agree that in the long run you will not feel better AND it hinders the detachment process. He will be evasive and you will not get the answers you want anyway. I would not expect him to suddenly break down and confess. Confrontation is only when you can do something productive with the information. Am I wrong?
BTW, for the record, it may not be a popular opinion and a lot of folks on your thread disagree, but I do not think you need to confront your H. I agree that in the long run you will not feel better AND it hinders the detachment process. He will be evasive and you will not get the answers you want anyway. I would not expect him to suddenly break down and confess. Confrontation is only when you can do something productive with the information. Am I wrong?
RAI
Thanks for that. I am torn on the confrontation. Will it get me closer to my goal? I have no idea...
You CAN and WILL capitalize on your momentum!
Me-44 (45) H- 50 (51) M-'96
S-18(20)D-15(17)D-12(14)
BD Feb 2014 (he works overseas) home Oct(sep rooms) (EAs possible Pa's unconfirmed) insists wants D through July 2015 no more talk of D since
Way to go rai! Your sitch and story is another one I relate to. The anxiety, fears, om, trying to make progress and worried you aren't making any, feeling angry/sad and then pity for ww.
I'm so happy to see the success and progress you've made. It helps me see it can be possible for me down the road!
M-33 W-33 S-11, S-8 M-11, T-14 BD - 12/26, Divorce Filing and admits to affair (her) 4/18 I moved out 5/23
I also wonder why I worry so much all the time. I get that anxiety and worry do serve a purpose. Were it not for these, I would never have studied for exams or been prepared for anything. They can be great motivators. The problems is that I (and perhaps you) tend take it to the extreme and paint such a bleak picture. It is hard to enjoy life and be in the moment when we do this.
RAI-- I always enjoy your threads! I agree with you about worrying all the time and the purpose of anxiety. It's hard to imagine anyone leaving someone so accomplished and insightful. I'm no where near as accomplished and still struggle with the "why's," but this is all becoming clearer with each passing day. MrBond pointed out to me my insecurities and with more introspection, I see my insecurites as the root of all my marital strife. This DBing is starting to make some sense.
I'm so proud of how you've handled everything. I can definitely identify with your FB story, as my W is still beautiful, but she is detiorating at a much faster rate than I. It doesn't make me love her any less, but when I look objectively at FB pics... I'm aging very well. But, the more I look at my sitch and myself... I really have a lot of improving to do. There is a lot of low hanging fruit!
I really do hope the very best for you... and Rise Above It!
Last edited by SadDood; 05/14/1511:48 PM.
M: 8 years, together 9 M: 41 W: 32 D 4, S 6 ILYBINILWY 2/10/15 2/14/15-2/22/15 Left home 4/5/15 Suspect A, Initiated Sandi's advice from WW thread 4/19/15 W asked for D
Thanks for your kind words of encouragement. We are all works in progress. Were it not for our challenges, we would never have the opportunity to grow.
I read your thread last night and I am sorry for your sitch. I had some thoughts, I will share them with you on your thread.
Thanks for writing. I definitely feel the same kinship from your posts that you feel from mine. Not everyone's thread resonates with me. I tend to follow sitches that are bit closer to mine - because the advice given will more likely be applicable to my sitch, and yours stands out as being eerily similar. You are a bit younger, but we both have young children, WAW/WWs who are filing (my W filed for dissolution), and are both still under the same roof.
RAI-- Just re-read your whole sitch. In an ironic way, it's almost funny how much I can sympathize with you. Obviously, we are very different people, but I felt your NMMNG summation was very similar to mine (for the most part). I don't think it's really applicable to me personally. Yes, I'm the least confident I can ever remember right now, but it's getting better.
Mozza's posts were amazing IMHO. (Thank You Mozza). I had never really considered my own narcistic traits. But, that is one more thing I need to work on.
I can tell you've come so far in your journey. I too waffle between wanting to save the M or just get it over with. It's so hard to not be in control of others, for me anyway. As each day passes DBing makes much more sense. Really wish I had recognized the problems in the M prior to BD, and would have mentally prepared myself for the excruciating process.
As a physician, you are always expected to be confident, keep your cool and temper your emotions and rely on your training and wit. Doesn't it seem that is who you really are? It's amazing in this time of crisis we travel so far from who WE are. Everyone on this board refers to the "fog" of the WAW in an A, but I've never really seen the "fog" of the LBS. Maybe that's the whole point of DBing. To get out of your own "fog". Sorry, I have a problem with rambling. Really wish I had your ability to maintain brevity and conciseness with your words. STFUing around the W has been easier lately, though. Doesn't seem like you have that problem.
You seem like such a good guy, despite not really being a "nice guy". I can definitely relate to always thinking of myself as the perfect son. You will get through this mess happier than you've ever been (yeah... it's easy to say, much harder to realize). So many excellent posts in this thread... will re-read.
M: 8 years, together 9 M: 41 W: 32 D 4, S 6 ILYBINILWY 2/10/15 2/14/15-2/22/15 Left home 4/5/15 Suspect A, Initiated Sandi's advice from WW thread 4/19/15 W asked for D
Also, I just read the entire Onguard thread. What an amazing read. Thank you so much for recommending it. Such great advice from Starsky and MLC.
M: 8 years, together 9 M: 41 W: 32 D 4, S 6 ILYBINILWY 2/10/15 2/14/15-2/22/15 Left home 4/5/15 Suspect A, Initiated Sandi's advice from WW thread 4/19/15 W asked for D
See? We all make mistakes. That is one main ingredient we have in common with everyone.
. I actually love that song anyway.
