Alpha and WAW - part 2

[alpha99]

OK guys, I guess the threads lock themselves after around 100 posts, right? Either way I'm no longer able to post in the old one so here is a brand new shiny thread continuing on from where I left off.

So today I took D5 to ballet. Afterwards I took S6 and D5 to the fair. We went on a few arcade games in the 'funland', played football in the park, went to McDonalds, walked around the shops, and had an all round good time. The kids loved it. The both fell asleep in the car on the way back.

First thread

Upon taking them back, my S rushed away from the car down the drive to knock on the door. We were about an hour later than I had said we would be. W opened door immediately and I could hear her asking S where had he been. As I got to the door she said, oh you've been to X then eh, because S just said so. Clearly she has been wondering where I have been with the kids all day as all I said was I was going to take them out. I hung around for a few minutes and then said goodbye to the kids. I spoke to W at the door about child care issues over the next few days as I'm suddenly a lot busier and have a few appointments etc and so won't be able to get the kids every day as has been the case this last week or two. That went fine, no disagreements. I know I've said it before but the rot has definitely stopped. So in that regard things are better than only a week or so ago by far. On the other hand, there seems to be more distance between us now than previously and although W seems curious about what I'm up to, she is not actively asking much really. I can see she is curious and little hints of that are coming out but there's no overwhelming sense that she wants to know what I'm up to all the time or that it's driving her crazy etc not knowing...at least not yet anyway. She did say the other day when I gave her a (uninvited) lift to the school that she didn't believe I was doing all these things because previously my friends never really did much and I only went out now and again, once in a blue moon, but suddenly I'm busy 3,4,5 times a week.

So, here's the funny thing. I won't bother dressing it up or anything. W's youtube account is still logged in on my mobile from a long time ago...and her emails. I noticed this today. She had used my phone in the past and somehow both are still logged in. I saw her Youtube history. In the last couple of days she has been listening to a lot of love songs, particularly Sam Smith (stay with me), Ed sheeran (thinking out loud), and 'Apoligise' by one republic. In recent months she has listened (quite unusually) to rap music a lot. Now she is listening to love songs, songs about longing etc. I don't know what to make of that. I can only guess as to whether she is listening to them simply because she likes the song and there's no other reason, she is listening and thinking of me, or she is listening and thinking of OM from her A. I of course would like the second option to be the case. She had said she didn't love OM, was only with him for sex, and that he had a pot belly and was a lot older. Of course she has lied a lot so who knows what the truth is. When I did use Whatsapp a few weeks back to contact OM she got really wound up that I had said some of the things she had told me (didn't love him, just sex etc) so go figure.

As far as emails go, she seems to have found somewhere else to rent. There was an email from a letting agent talking about paying fees etc and securing a place. I didn't bother reading through it all as I really don't want to snoop etc and I am trying to detach myself from every little thing that she does, but of course once I realised that both accounts were logged in it was inevitable that I was going to have a little peak.

So, now I'm wondering: Is W being nicer because she is moving on and less reliant on me than ever before, needing less contact, happy with her situation...or is she simply having time to reflect and although she is ploughing on ahead with the new place to rent (and also buying things to go in it), her heart is slowly softening. As I've written a few times the anger has definitely subsided. There has also been no talk for a few days of decorating and selling the house. If we have to go through her living somewhere else on her own for a few months (or longer) then I could live with that. She did say that she didn't want to be with anyone, just alone for a while. Once her A was exposed one of the things she did say was that she was confused. I was still in the pleading phase and so I was saying that she could work on things with me, all the usual stuff etc. At that time she said she didn't know, maybe she could in the future, but she would still have to rent her own place regardless, and if things did work out in the future I could move in with her. This was all said about 3 weeks or so ago now. In that time a lot has happened and she has retracted some of the earlier things she has said, although having said that a lot of what she said from last week was clearly said in anger and therefore I will take most of everything she has said with a pinch of salt.

Finally, I'm looking forward to my next DB coaching session on Tuesday. I will go over my journal and read some of the previous thread of mine to have it clear in mind what exactly has happened since the last session. I hope to get some good clear advice on what steps I can take, help identify with the use of someone else's perspective what has and hasn't been working, and focus on doing more of the things that have been working.

[alpha99]

Right, it is early morning here - and I can't sleep. Sleeping hasn't been *such* an issue this last week or two, I haven't been having a lot but I had been snoozing through the night. However for the last few days I have only been having 2-3 hours sleep - if that.

I am going to be out most of the day today with friends playing golf. Unfortunately I probably won't get to see my children until Tuesday morning when I take them to school. FIL has been taking them on Mondays due to it being his day off work. I am sad over this. It's been six weeks now since BD and whilst I have gotten used to some of the changes in my life pretty quickly, I don't think I will ever come to terms with my children not being here with me when they wake up every day. The thought of that is heartbreaking and just typing this out has started to make me cry.

Thinking about this for a moment, W took the kids with her when she went to her M's because I wasn't handling the situation very well. In the last few weeks I have completely turned things around and I'm now in total control of myself (99.9% of the time). I think it is time to start saying that the children should be at home with me a bit more. I don't like the idea of my wife forever more dictating when I can see them, or if I only have the opportunity to see them for a short spell each day, take them out once a week. Granted, I was a mess the first few weeks and so it made sense for her to look after them. But as I am getting back to normal, and in some senses doing better than ever, then it is time to reclaim my children.

I will go about this in a nice way. I don't want to go down the solicitor route. I do get the feeling W will get angry with me and come out with a load of excuses as to why I shouldn't have them. That's too bad. They are my children too, she had an affair, she left the family home, she doesn't have custody over them and so there's no reason I can see why they shouldn't spend at least a few days a week in their own house with their father.

[alpha99]

I've just got back from golf. Had a great time, although my golf game.is awful. Thought about my sitch a few times whilst out but mostly just focused on having a good time. I do miss my W and kids terribly. At some moments it takes all I have to stop myself from calling and just saying I love you, can't we work this out? I know that's not the best thing to do so I don't, but I am finding some moments extremely hard to deal with.

For those people who have gone dark or have experience of this board, is there any sort of rough average before S begins to initiate contact. I know each situation is different but I was just wondering in general. I miss ny W and kids so much. I have been GAL etc but I still feel the pain of my situation. I know I maybe wants things to happen quicker than they will...I have my coaching session Tuesday...I hope Amanada can help give me some more personalised goals and assignments. Knowing W has rented somewhere else, or on the verge of, is depressing...Im tired and lonely right now...this is so hard.

Going to go right through DR over the next day or two. I want to interactions W without getting things wrong.

I cried alone to myself a few times this morning before I went out. Typing this is.making me well up now.

[Sotto]

Hi Alpha, looking for a rough average isn't going to help you know. Every sitch is different - but I would say this. If you expect nothing in the short to medium term and realise you need to live your own life, that will be the best plan.

My H has been involved with OW for over a year now, and we have been S for 8 months. He hardly initiates contact and I occasionally initiate it. In general, whilst A's don't tend to become successful M's, they don't fizzle out overnight either, and it is by far best to detach yourself from the situation..

Sounds good with the GALing :-)

[alpha99]

Thanks toot,

I'm struggling really badly today, crying a lot. I feel like things are getting worse, W renting a place, listening to love songs...my guess is she's thinking of OM. I feel so lost. I have lots of things planned to keep me busy but as busy as I am every spare second leads me back to thinking about W and kids. After doing so well all week I just feel so little hope right now and its hard to deal with. W not getting in touch only compounds this.

[Sotto]

Have you read the

you need to maintain some hope overall and faith that things will turn out okay in your life whichever way. However, for now, there is some brutal reality to be engaged with.

It just takes time too - time, patience, techniques + GAL + detach and so on. Better days and worse ones. The main thing I learned is to just accept there will be bad days and they will pass. And as time goes on, the bad days become fewer...

I think you're doing really well Alpha.

[alpha99]

I just feel like posting some of the problems that we had in our marriage (mainly the ones that were my fault) here so that I may come back and reflect on them whenever I feel that urge to:

I had control over the finances. Left to herself my wife would spiral out of financial control quickly. I am (slightly) older, (far) more mature, and so looked after finances. Through good and bad financial times we never missed a bill, always had food, kids never went without, had numerous family holidays in the last few years. My problem? I was too miserly (or call it controlling) over every penny. To stop W from spending too much I would ask what she was buying and recommend how much she took out of the bank...on pretty much everything, nights out, make up, clothes. She has said how she resented how I tried to save money on everything. Whilst I don't see that as a bad thing per se, she clearly does. She wants to live 'more freely' with less consideration to finances. I proposed a new way of managing finances immediately post split but she was simply not listening. Should things ever work out then this is major thing to work on. I would be happy having a joint account (previously all wages got paid into my account/all bills came out - for convenience mainly but it was seen as me having full control) and after bill paying etc putting X amount into our own accounts for our own use. Again, this is only in the event that things one day worked out...I don't see that being any time soon.

Moaning - W sees that I moaned at her all the time. She is incredibly untidy and would leave things laying about everywhere. I would never tidy them up as I said I wasn't her cleaner. Whilst that is true, if things worked out one day I would have to be more willing to let some things go, not to complain about her untidiness, and to help out more with the household chores. I would complain she would use every dish in the house rather than wash one but at the same time I rarely did the dishes. Since W has left home I have been doing my own washing for the first time ever. Obviously these are things that need to change and stay that way.

Shouting/arguing/name calling - I thought out R was such that this was just how we were, but we would argue an awful lot over petty things, money, household chores, her untidiness etc. During those heated times I would say nasty things to her, call her silly names, put her down etc. I always loved her dearly and often apologised afterwards. She says this contributed to her A and our S because she feels (selective memory here?) that it was night and day, 24/7. It most definitely wasn't but that's how she perceives things. I am changing in that regard already in that I have been a lot calmer recently. I'm definitely not a hot headed person by nature, quite the opposite in fact, so this is really about changing the dynamic of our relationship going forward to that we don't do the same old dance. I have been implementing this change the last few weeks and feel so much better for it. Arguments have become increasingly more like water off a ducks back - I tend now not to get drawn into tit for tat kind of discussions where I would previously take the bait.

Fun times - When we first met and of course didn't have children, we did lots of fun things together as a couple, nights out, romantic holidays, lots of sitting around kissing, cuddling, talking about our day etc. Over time, and with children, this reduced to next to nothing. We would still go to the cinema, theatre now and then, but other fun things, the nights out in particular, just stopped dead. No bowling, no funfair, fewer Chinese meals out, all days out as a family centred around the children. Of course this would need to change. Our S has caused her parents to be far more involved with the children than ever before. My own parents have said they would now (or in the future should things work out) be far more willing to look after the children. We went on one brief weekend away two years ago and upon return my parents said the kids had been fantastic, we enjoyed looking after them, but never again. I have mentioned this to them recently and they have said they would help out far more if/when necessary so that more fun could be had as a couple by myself and W. That's a long way down the road (maybe never now, who knows?) but at least these things are in place should things come together so that we don't fall into the same trap.

Sex - W was not happy with our sex life. I kind of knew this but ignored it alot as at the time it was not a pleasant thing to think about. She would never mention it. I did try to do different things to please her but a lot of the time she would resist or flat out say no to the things I suggested. We wouldn't have sex very often in recent times, a lot of it due to the reasons mentioned above about lack of time together etc, but I had a sense she wasn't happy with things. She had said OM was very good in that regard (was she being honest her or just trying to hurt me, who knows?) I had suggested sex therapy to her (again, right on splitting up etc as these things moved into focus). Of course at that time she didn't listen but who knows in the future. It is something to bear in mind.

[alpha99]

Hi Toots, sorry I just noticed your message above. I will look into the. You did mention . I will look into that also today. Thanks for the help and suggestions.

[alpha99]

W was taking the children to school today. I've been thinking about our childcare.arrangements and how I hate the fact it could be perceived that I'm not interested in looking after the children. I love them with all my heart and so I'm not happy at all at the situation we've gotten into where the kids stay with W st her parents' every night. I've not had them once over night in about 3-4 weeks now. I miss them. Therefore this morning I sent the following text:

Did the kids go into school OK this morning? As soon as we can I would like the kids to spend a couple of nights each week at home with me.

No reply as of yet. W clings to her phone 24/7 so clearly lack of response is because she won't be happy with the suggestion. I see her more concerned over state benefits gained from being main carer helping to aid the funding of her new place than a genuine desire to look after the children the best she can. I simply want to see them more because I love them and miss them.

[alpha99]

So I've been to the dentist. I am feeling good about myself today. I'm dressed smartly,got a few social things lined up, and I plan to take the children out for tea on Thursday. I also went to the gym earlier. I may go again later.

W has not replied to my earlier text. I think she'll be awkward but blame things on me. She still owes me money too, a few hundred pound...as well giving me some of my clothes back that she mistakenly took to her mother's house with her. If I can have the kids just 2-3 days a week I would be so much happier. More than anything I miss them and I know they're not getting looked after as well as they would be with me. Things seem to be far more laid back at her mother's place regarding the children. They were never allowed to go up and down our stairs alone for example, simply due to our steep stairs and their sometimes unsteady nature. Now I call briefly and see D5 jumping up and down on stairs unsupervised. It would seem only a matter of time til there's an accident. Of course that's the last thing I want but if I intervene I know what's going to happen...the angry bear will get released from its cage.

Having a better day today. Still cried a bit this morning, but when I have plans, people to see, places to go, things pass by quicker. I will see my children tomorrow. It's one of the longest periods of.time since their births that I haven't seen them. It is so hard to think they may do new things, win something at school, have s tooth fall out, pick up a new hobby, and that I won't be there all the time to see it.

Finally, I'm having a few bouts right now of missing W and kids.

[alpha99]

Well, something strange is going on. I have just attempted to call W three times over a 20 minute period as I would like to go and see the kids this evening. She didn't answer and phone went straight to voicemail. She is either on the phone (not uncommon), she has blocked my number (ridiculous but a possibility), or her phone is off (unlikely). I tried to call her father as he should be with her after just taking the kids back from school, but no answer there either. It's one thing to separate, it's completely another thing to deny me access to the kids. Again, she still hasn't replied to the text from this morning. It might be retaliation because I said I was busy yesterday and never saw the kids. But what does she want? I would love to see them every day but she is messing about now over access to them. As much as I hate the thought of doing it, should it continue I would be forced to go down the legal route. As I said, not being together is one thing, trying to claim total ownership and write me out of the kids' lives is another thing.

Finally, of course I might have gotten this wrong. She may just be on the phone or otherwise engaged. It does seem odd though. I will wait and see how this pans out before making any rash judgments.

[twinmom]

Ok, so a few things here....

PARENTING PLAN
PARENTING PLAN
PARENTING PLAN

Oh yea, get a parenting plan in place and stick to it!

[twinmom]

Just like you don't have to respond to your wife's text messages (think lost tooth incident) she doesn't have to jump to yours either. And you called 3x in a 20 min span? And there wasn't an emergency? I would be irritated about that.

A parenting plan would prevent this situation and you are not going to like this but again, you can't see the kids everyday.

[alpha99]

You're right. I haven't got a parenting plan in place. I have been detaching and so haven't been in regular contact with W. I haven't seen or spoken to her since Saturday afternoon when I returned the kids. I only mentioned briefly plans for the week ahead and when I could take the kids to school etc.

W just called me back. Turns out her phone had gone off (run out of battery). I am going to see the kids shortly. She wants a key cut tomorrow and has the intention to come and sort out which stuff she wants to take with her to her new place. I'm not liking the thought of that, seeing our possessions go sailing out the door.

when I'm seeing the kids, I will mentioned again what I texted this morning, how I want to have the kids at home for a few days each week - i.e. parenting plan. We will know where we stand then. I am also going to mention taking the kids out for tea on Thursday. This time I am going to invite W, but in a casual way like it doesn't matter if she comes or not...but the offer is there. She was just quite polite on the phone, and has offered to have my clothes ready for when I go up, and also have the money she owes me ready for tomorrow.

I just need to handle tomorrow well. I've got to think neighbourly. It's going to be difficult when she starts to (as she undoubtedly will) try and pick out all the best of our joint possessions. I will have to clean the house a little too. I have not really been living at home, just using the computer for work and taking a shower, sleeping in bed. I have some clothes laying around from after the gym so I don't want her getting the impression I am at home all the time. She is currently responsible for some of the bills in the house and if she gets a whiff that I might be living at home (I'm not) then she will suddenly change her tune.

It's funny how things moving further away from a resolution can also be quite encouraging. By that I mean once she is living alone she is no doubt going to find it difficult. She didn't use a wardrobe once in our 9 years of living together. How the hell is see going to cope with a house and two kids all on her own? Answer: badly. Her folks will only be 2 minutes away from her new place but they have a special needs son and so although they will be there most days for some time I would imagine, they won't be there all the time to mind the kids as it appears they are doing now all living under the same roof. I think after the initial feeling of liberation and excitement of having her own place there's going to be some long lonely nights ahead for her once the kids are in bed and her parents have gone home. She can't financially afford to go partying every night, nor childminding wise. So it's a case of getting on with it for her. I will of course not have to tread so carefully if I go to see the kids and her folks aren't there all the time. By that I mean I will still continue in the same vein as I have recently but that she will (I think) be more likely to be happy to see me as some relief from the kids. That's what I mean by things getting further away but I'm quite happy with how it's going. We seem to be getting on better, in a more business like manner. Some time together as a family on Thursday would be good. If it doesn't happen it's not the end of the world, I will still take the kids out all being well. Then once she's in some time alone together (no parents there) may bit by bit give her the opportunity to see the things I'm changing about myself.

Mental note: PARENTING PLAN!

[alpha99]

Well, things just suddenly got real. I need some advice here if anyone can help.

I just went to see the kids. Whilst there W says she is coming tomorrow to clear out the house and take what she wants with her. FIL is getting a van to move stuff. She wants to change the kids' school from the next school year in September.

She mentioned divorce for the first time in a few weeks. Said it's expensive, we can't stay married forever if we're not together. Doesn't want to do it right now but is putting it up in the air so that I don't get shocked by getting papers through the door etc.

Impossible to have a conversation without her parents stepping in. Even when we go outside they come out and make excuses to interrupt. They have a lawyer in the family who has given them advice, says that she is their guardian now cos she's looking after them. they want to be amicable and are urging W to do the same but their idea of amicable is that I do whatever they want, basically!

I feel like utter crap. I have been crying on and off for the last hour. I suppose I knew this was coming but it still didn't prepare me totally for it now that it's here.

I'm getting a key cut in the morning with W for our current house, and then she's coming with me back to ours to do the sorting.

I broke one of the rules: I asked about our relationship just before I left. So many things happened at once that I just couldn't stop myself from asking her about the future. I said I didn't want a divorce. I asked if there was ever any chance of us working things out. She said she doesn't think so because she can't trust me. She says she knows that sounds funny because she has had an affair but because I made recordings of her making lies up about me she is adamant I can't be trusted. I have since deleted all records I had on her.

I mentioned about having the children for a few nights a week. Wife just shut that down straight away. I said something along the lines of 'well, who are you to decide when I can see my kids. We are both their parents. What would stop me from just taking them now?

she called her parents and twisted everything I said. Luckily they listened to me and told her to calm down. I was calm throughout and never got angry once. We got to some sort of agreement, that I would have them but not at home because it would be 'getting done up' to be sold as soon as possible.

I think W is just seeing pound signs at the moment. At one point she was incredibly angry with me. She said I was evil and had an ulterior motive and was about to stab her in the back.

I feel sick. I had thought things were cooling down. I don't think giving her more space has had much affect. If anything it would appear that the distance between us has only strengthened her resolve to do things. I think she is being pushed along quite a bit by her family.

I feel lost and hopeless right now. I just want to curl up and sleep for a long, long time.

I miss her so much. I can see in her face that the woman I used to love has gone and has been replaced by someone else. My children were happy to see me but I felt so sick having to leave them.

Any ideas of how to handle tomorrow? There's no way of stopping the juggernaut now, she's coming and that's that. she will be taking stuff. Should I help and be nice and friendly or stand back and let her get on with it without helping? I'm thinking be as friendly as possible.

What's most upsetting is the quick chat over our future. Saying how she can't trust me, doesn't think we will ever sort things out. She's the one who had the affair. She has now downgraded that to a fling (yeah, over 6 months) and although recognises she has lied in having it she seems to truly believe that I am the one who can't be trusted.

This is the hardest thing I'v ever had to face in my life...and it's going on day after day after day. Worst case scenario at the moment is W gone, seeing children a few times a week, house being sold, and at the moment not much of a bright future to look forward to. Someone shoot me now and have it done with.

[alpha99]

Maybe I'm losing the plot but given events this evening I'm thinking of texting W with something along the lines of:

Just to be clear, I do not want to get a divorce. I understand you getting your own place, selling the house, how you feel right now etc. When we married we made a lifelong commitment to each other. I plan to honor that. I will help where I can with whatever choices you make but at sometime in the future I would like to work on our marriage.


What do you think of that? Is texting a bad idea? Is the content good or bad? Should I just take a long walk off a short cliff?

[Train]

Take a long walk. But not off a short pier. Don't send it. Take some time to breathe and re-center.

As for tomorrow, don't help her move her things. Let her begin to feel the consequences of her own choices.

[Train]

As for W saying she can't trust you? Rubbish. That's script.

[alpha99]

Thanks Train, that's good advice. I feel slightly better than I did an hour or so ago. I know tomorrow is going to be hard, maybe the hardest day of my life so far.

The way I feel right now I am struggling to see a happy way out of this. I don't sense anything from my wife other than a desire to move on. If you could see the anger in her face when I just suggested that I, as their father, would like to look after the kids for a few nights each week. She seems to have been empowered by her aunty lawyer and family telling her she is in control.

She said I one point that she won't stand for me rolling up and saying I will do this and that (I never did this for a second by the way) because from now on she will be deciding everything and calling all the shots.

At this very moment I bloody hate her for what she is doing. I feel my children slipping away and the precious moments of their childhood passing without me being there to witness them. It seems I have all the odds stacked against me. She did say she is alone, not seeing anyone, and has no plans to at the moment. Despite everything I do believe her on that front. Maybe I'm just being naive... If it is the case then I suppose there is hope for one day in the future. She did say, I don't think so, rather than a simple no, when asked if we one day might work things out.

Tomorrow evening I am at a friend's house to play poker. Wednesday I am at a language meet up (something new for me, I don't know anyone there). I am trying hard to GAL but this is so, so hard, unbelievably hard. I know a lot of people here are in the same boat, or even worse...I just never saw this coming. If we went back just one year then life seemed great. Now it's a bloody mess.

I'm going to bed soon because I will need to be up early to tidy the house a little before she turns up.

If anyone else has an opinion over this please feel free just to shout it out.

thank you all.

[alpha99]

This is saved as a draft ready to be sent via text:

Just to be clear from before, I would not like to get a divorce. I know we're separated, I understand you getting your own place, selling the house, how you feel right now etc but when we married we made a lifelong commitment to each other. I've got plenty of things wrong in my life but I plan to honor that. I will help where I can with whatever choices you make but at sometime in the future I would like for us if we could try to work on our marriage...if and whenever you are ready to.

I'm torn, send or no send.

[Train]

Nope. Pursuit.

[alpha99]

Dang, I nodded off, woke up and sent the.message.

I feel like I'm in freefall just waiting to slam into the ground.

[Starsky309]

Dang, I nodded off, woke up and sent the.message.

I feel like I'm in freefall just waiting to slam into the ground.

Wow. Train's 11-MINUTE RESPONSE wasn't fast enough for you, eh?

Still operating based on your feelings, Alpha?

Bad move.

Starsky

[alpha99]

Sorry, yes, I guess your right. Things have just nose dived today and got the better of me. Not sleeping at all (3.20am now)

Any advice on how to handle today?

[alpha99]

This is going to be the hardest day of my life. I haven't slept all night and cried on and off. How can I stop this nightmare. After doing so I just feel deflated and defeated. She's the love of my life, they're my beautiful children. I'm in my house alone for what might be the last night ever...I just can't handle this. I want to be strong but my emotions are overtaking me

[Complex]

Sorry to hear alpha. Breath and focus, think about your kids. Allow yourself some slack, cry etc. but then tell youself it's enough, I have to take care of myself.
And most importantly don't get caught in what went wrong and all the ifs. Focus on the now and on yourself and your children.
You will get there!!! Try to distract yourself, read a lot. Buy some books, post a lot here. Force yourself to GAL.
I wish you all the best. I really feel for you. But I know you can do this!

[alpha99]

Thanks complex, I will try to do those things.

I am trying to be positive. If the house gets sold I will have quite a bit of money. I can do things then I've never been able to. W and kids will only be a 10 minute drive away. Things are so raw right now but maybe over the coming months if I get things right things may change. Slowly but surely I am becoming a different person. I would never have dreamt of going to a language meet up until now for example. My teeth are fixed and sparking clean. I am the fittest and lightest in terms of weight I have been in over 10 years. W does appear to be genuine when she says she isn't with anyone, so in that respect the only thing to change is the house being cleansed in preparation for sale. She did mention D again last night but says she has no plans immediately. I asked about our future, she said I don't think so. Understandable given the moment. I shouldn't have asked, I know. At least even in the heat if everything she didn't slam the door completely shut. There is a glimmer of hope. Earlier I wrote worse case scenario. Now let's try best case:

A year from now we could potentially all be living in the one house (W did say this week's ago if things did work out). It would be rented, so that's a bummer, but we'd have more.money from house sale than ever before. Kids in ew school, made new friends, rebuild friendship/relationship with W, happier than ever...that's the dream anyway.

[alpha99]

So today, listen, absorb, don't react emotionally, no R talk, project happiness (tho I feel dead inside) be nice without being overly helpful, no crazy declarations, wild statements, or ultimatums.

Also, I mentioned taking kids out Thursday for tea. Casually invited W. She said she thought it wasn't a good idea as we are not together. I said the offer is there anyway, and left it at that.

[Complex]

You sound more positive already. But you HAVE to stop pursuing W. Read DR again or get some advice from the vets or a coach.
Stop asking her out, stop sending texts etc ..please!!'
It won't do any good. Try to think what W thinks when you do those things from her point of view.
There are many other things you can do. But for now, in the state of mind you are still in, I would keep contact to W at a minimum. You are doing too many mistakes still. Build some more DB knowledge!

[alpha99]

Thanks complex, and everyone else, who has helped me through this last day. All your advice has been great. I just need to follow it. No more texts, I won't mention W coming out with us for tea on Thursday either. We spoke last night about sorting out a week by week arrangement for the kids. Since she is here today and my work is flexible I will try and get that set up for the next few weeks (as far as she has her shifts in advance).

I have felt I was doing really well all week long and then BANG, this came like a bolt from the blue. The problem seems to be compounded by her family who are pushing her along. They think they know all the legalities about the situation and that she is right in having the kids all the time, has full control over when I see them, can change schools, sell house, do whatever she likes basically, with no (or very little) regard for me.

Once she is in her house then maybe her folks influence will wain somewhat. She can be fiercely independent and I know because she's said that she doesn't like living at her mum's right now and having to follow 'her rules' but is doing so out of neccesity. Once moved she may resist her mother's controlling personality. I hope so anyway.

I am not going to pursue her anymore. Easier said than done it turns out, but I am going to give it everything to just hold back. I have a coaching session later today so that is good timing.

Complex, you said there are many other things I can do in the meantime whilst I feel like this. Did you mean GAL, distractions, reading etc as was suggested earlier, or do you mean something else. If there's anything else you could suggest I might do in the meantime then I would appreciate the comments.

[alpha99]

Well I blew it.

Kids had an assembly this morning at school which W and I attended. That went fine. On the drive home I broke down and became.a blubbering mess. W's father arrived to help sort things out, spent the whole time consoling me, trying to pep me up. W was totally disinterested. She said she felt bad and didn't like doing this but there was no choice. No doubt I've just driven her a bit further away. She mentioned divorce again saying we can't be married forever if we're not together. I am absolute rock bottom now. No tidying/splitting possessions got done. I just want to keel over. She left in car with her F. I got everything wrong. I said I love you as well. What a stupid man I am. I miss her so much and haven't been able to stop crying.

[Sotto]

Alpha, I'm so sorry. It is done now, and you should forgive yourself for loving your W and being distressed. We all have backslides. The thing to do is learn from them and move forwards.

The reality is your W is disinterested in you and your M right now. Who knows what may happen going forwards? But there are many apects of your future you can control and these are the ones to work on.

There will be plenty of opportunities to show your W that you are moving forwards with your own life...and she may become interested enough to turn back towards it. You know how these sitches go, and there is usually a predictable trajectory for the A. It just takes time and patience...

[Starsky309]

There will be plenty of opportunities to show your W that you are moving forwards with your own life...and she may become interested enough to turn back towards it. You know how these sitches go, and there is usually a predictable trajectory for the A. It just takes time and patience...

Alpha, this ^^^.

Look, you can make mistakes DBing. You just can't keep making the same ones, over and over again. It's not complicated, but that doesn't mean it's EASY, either -- it takes a LOT of self-discipline.

Resolve to do better. STRENGTH and HONOR,


Starsky

[alpha99]

Thanks toots

W insists A is over now. She says she not speaking to OM anymore. Claims he is a 'player' and has moved on. She said he used her and she used him. She says she did it cos she was so unhappy with me. Ironically this morning at the assembly was going well, she chatted to me a little about her new rented place, talked about ordering things, even smiled in my general direction as the kids took turns to speak in the assembly.

Then it went wrong. I said we have beautiful children once back in the car. She said yeah, and that's a that matters now. That prompted a conversation about R and I got upset, from which I never recovered composure. I must have done everything that is wrong, pleading, crying, the works...saying I love you etc. Her F was very good with me and quite concerned. He said he'd been trying to speak to W but she is incredibly stubborn.

I know I've set things back enormously today. I have to regroup though because there were small signs this morning of things being a little better, talking about things she had held private recently. What an idiot I am. Undoubtedly the house is getting sold. If I'd been strong enough finger through it without crying it would have made a big difference. Not doing so has had a negative impact. Ive started reading DR again this afternoon. Coaching session in 2 hours. Oh God do I need some coaching now.

W did pull herself back from saying never, instead saying she won't go back.to hoe things were. I'm too impatient. We are going to have to go through house sake to come out the other side.

I need to be stronger. I need to be there without getting upset.

Wife jumped up when I mentioned dentist. She obviously hadn't noticed to.that point. Baby steps, watch,watch,watch.

[alpha99]

Typing from my mobile causes quite a few errors!

[alpha99]

Thanks for the words of encouragment starksy. I feel a bit better already. Up to p90 of DR. Set some short term goals. Coming to realisation house will be sold, w will live elsewhere...that doesn't mean it's game over though.

I think from now on I'm going to set weekly (or fortnightly) goals and review each week how I get on: having just read step 2 of DR here goes:

* go on a family activity
* be included in a future event.
* W show a little interest in me either on phone or face to face.

Now, to reach these goals:

I am taking kids out for tea on Thursday. Rightly or wrongly I invited W. Won't ask again but let's see if she comes.

It's parent's evening in the next week or two. I will let W organise the appointment time and see if she informs me of it.

Wife has shown moments of interest recently. Going to maintain low contact/initiate high quality interactions (non R) when we do meet.

Coaching in less than an hour, then see the kids, then tea, then play poker with friends.

[alpha99]

Well, I said today would be hard...and so it has been.

Bad news: as above, I made a pigs ear of interaction today. It was going well at the school but then went belly up big time.

Good news: had an excellent coaching session with Amanda. She validated a lot.of things I've been doing, set me straight on some no go areas.

Finally, W called earlier. Asked if I could leave seeing the kids tonight due to them not having had their tea, W at work and it getting late. I said no problem. W then called back to inform me kids had had a school photo taken and wanted to know.if I wanted one. She called me, a mundane thing, I know, but a nice way to end.the day as she could have just told me tomorrow.

I've got my eyes wide open looking for little positive changes. Maybe this is one.

DB coach Amanda thinks LRT is an excellent idea for me. I've got to find.the self discipline to carry these things out. I nearly sent a text to.wife earlier but stopped myself. Reading DR again has really helped clarify things. I think I am going to have to read it several times to keep on top of things.

[alpha99]

Just back from poker. Felt good for a while. As tiredness set in from a long day my mood dropped. I'm tired now. A cup of tea and then bed. Well, today was pretty awful. Unfortunately since the house stuff didn't get sorted I will have to go through that again on another day. I feel I will be stronger next time to deal with it. I understand I can't repeat today or I'm just put the final nail in the marital coffin. I've read DR a lot today. Going to keep reading and reading. I MUST GET A GRIP ON MY EMOTIONS OR NOTHING WILL GET BETTER.

IT AIN'T OVER TIL IT'S OVER

[Complex]

Better attitude! Did you win at poker?
Self discipline is a huge part of DB, especially in the beginning. You can make mistakes, and some of them won't change the outcome, but if they add up to a certain point you just make the rest of your sitch harder...AND your own life too!

It doesn't seem like your persuasion shut W completely off. She is still contacting you. But you have to stop and focus on the book and yourself and the kids. You have to get your focus off W!

What's your plan the rest of the week?

[alpha99]

Hi Complex,

I didn't win at poker I think yesterday was the biggest day since A was exposed really as it was the next step coming along. I dealt with it really badly but it did show me that I CANNOT allow that to happen again. W will be moving, house will be sold, but I still have plenty of time to work on things.

Rest of the week: I had to turn work down yesterday because I was a mess. I will have a day or two off. I might visit my sister today, go to the gym, I'm at a language group this evening. I'm also picking up/dropping off kids for school for the rest if the week. Hopefully I will take them for tea tomorrow. As I said, W is invited. I get the feeling after yesterday she won't come but we'll see. I'm taking the kids to a nice restaurant they've never been to that W also likes but hasn't been to in a while. One of my goals is to have a family activity each week with the intention of just providing some full family time for the kids and no mention of R to W if she.comes, just day to day stuff. Before I imploded yesterday we were having the most normal conversation we'd had. Maybe thinking of it, maybe it was backlash to that what happened in our conversation in the car with her being ratty and then my subsequent meltdown. All in the past now. Like you're all saying, mistakes are inevitable but I can't keep making the same one over Nd over.

[alpha99]

I am trying to reconcile some of the techniques in DR with LRT. Can there be some crossover, I.e, have minimal contact as per LRT but when I do interact to work on showing changes, 180s, neighbourly polite conversation etc. Sometimes I've blurred techniques and contradicted LRT by trying to show a nicer side and maybe initiating contact etc when I shouldn't have done. Got to work on that.

[alpha99]

Well, after a bad day yesterday so begins a good one today. I feel a lot stronger today. I had a very good sleep for once. I got back late from the poker and the emotions of the day must have helped to flatten me out come bed time.

Had a good interaction with W this morning as I picked kids up. I've been reading DR alot and also thinking about validation, cheerleading and other techniques to use in my brief interactions with W as part of my LRT attempt. Of.course it's too early to say but I think I'm finding my stride now. Validated wife over her shift and getting rest, also over her coursework in her job training. She might get into trouble because she is not keeping up to date with
her coursework. I said 'that's not fair, surely they could give you a bit more time? She agreed. She showed me kids' sample school photos so I could pick out what I wanted. She seemed quite pleasant considering.

I also tried to act as if. I got an immediate response. As I approached the door to knock on it, I thought about how W would probably open the door and scowl or look away, or generally not be too welcoming. I thought about how if she was happy to see me I would knock on the door, and once it was opened I would smile and give her a big warm, hello, good morning. That's exactly what I did. She was clearly going to open the door in her 'oh you're here' manner when she caught sight on my big hello and it prompted her to change her demeanour and respond almost in kind, with a vaguely warm good morning. Questions from me about school and kids followed in an upbeat manner, and the conversation went well.

I thoroughly expect in the short term for something to jump out and catch me off guard, like the house sale or mention of the big D, but I am trying to prepare myself for that so we don't have a repeat of yesterday - lovingly detached is the key here.

[alpha99]

I think a key thing for me is employment. I am self employed. Previously working around kids at school, being home etc appeared great. Pay wasn't to hot cos it is basically part time work. W resented this because she worked FT and had to leave early and/or get home late. I think the biggest 180 I could do is get a regular job with a steadier wage. That would be better for myself right now but also leave me less time to ponder things, show I'm moving on/making changes...and it is something she mentioned just a week or two ago when I'd said I had applied for a job.

[Complex]

IMO you are still too focused on her, having the need to 'tell' her about all the developments. I Think it would be beneficisl if you cut as much contact to her as possible for a while and try to truly detach. Only kid related.
Anyone else an opinion on this?

[alpha99]

Complex, do you think it's possible mix other techniques in with LRT if I see wife virtually every day through kids? I hear what you're saying. I wonder if cheerleading etc over little things is a good thing if she brings up say a work conversation if I'm there anyway, it should I just be polite but not expand on things. Doing that recently seems.to have backfired as she's got angry and said I'm not communicating.

[Starsky309]

I think a key thing for me is employment. I am self employed. Previously working around kids at school, being home etc appeared great. Pay wasn't to hot cos it is basically part time work. W resented this because she worked FT and had to leave early and/or get home late. I think the biggest 180 I could do is get a regular job with a steadier wage. That would be better for myself right now but also leave me less time to ponder things, show I'm moving on/making changes...and it is something she mentioned just a week or two ago when I'd said I had applied for a job.

Haven't seen a situation yet where this didn't make a difference to a woman, but keep in mind: you should be doing these things for YOU, not for her. Do them because they make YOU a better person, and a more attractive mate, to SOMEONE. If that happens to be your wife, then all the better.

Your ACTIVITIES are in line; your FOCUS is still too wife-centered.


Starsky

[Starsky309]

I also tried to act as if. I got an immediate response. As I approached the door to knock on it, I thought about how W would probably open the door and scowl or look away, or generally not be too welcoming. I thought about how if she was happy to see me I would knock on the door, and once it was opened I would smile and give her a big warm, hello, good morning. That's exactly what I did. She was clearly going to open the door in her 'oh you're here' manner when she caught sight on my big hello and it prompted her to change her demeanour and respond almost in kind, with a vaguely warm good morning. Questions from me about school and kids followed in an upbeat manner, and the conversation went well.

EXCELLENT!!!

[alpha99]

Starksy,

I was happy with my job given our family context. Now that's gone it is not enough for me. I do transcription work from home. It's highly concentrated so simply upping my hours to earn more is not viable as I'd have no eyes left...and be mentally shattered. I originally got the job as something to do as I was.unemployed at the time after losing my old job and had two young children. W was in work part.time at this point. She changed jobs and became full time about 3 years ago and slowly her resentment seems.to have set in. Hourly rate for myself is good, just not enough hours. A regular job that's not so highly concentrated would be good for ME. Maybe I will have to do training. I'm not sure exactly what I want to do in the long term, but in the short term just some.sort of regular job would be fine.

[Starsky309]

A woman can build up an awful lot of resentment in three years time, if she feels (fairly or unfairly) that her husband is under-employed. "Security" typically ranks very high (usually at the top) of many women's emotional needs, and if a woman doesn't feel secure in the marriage it can lead to resentment, unhappiness and even waywardness.

[alpha99]

Well, when we went out for tea a week or so ago and I mentioned applying for a new job, she said, I've been telling you to do that for years (including dentists and opticians). The reason I hadn't before was that there would have been no one present to take kids to work, pick them up. I suppose W could have cut hours but it just didn't make financial sense to me to have me go and earn half her hourly rate so she coukd stay home for the kids...how I would happily take that now

[Train]

Just to build on this point, a personal experience from a woman's POV:

My H is a workhorse. His stability and work ethics were the top two reasons I was attracted to him in the first place. In 2010, and without my full support, he changed jobs and industries (in an effort to "find happiness") and took a massive paycut (about 50%). Our house almost ended up in foreclosure because we could not keep our heads above water, and H didn't seem to care. It wasn't feasible for me to go back to work because my S8 was still a toddler, and my wages would have done little more than pay for childcare. (I would also later discover I was pregnant with D3.)

I lost an enormous amount of respect for H during that time. And, looking back, it's exactly when everything in our M started going downhill, leading to BD and the A in 2014.

But here's the kicker: By 2014, H was back to working two jobs ... both of which were in the industry he had left in 2010. We were caught up on bills and even started having enough to enjoy life a little again. That stability was enough to keep me solidly planted in our M and for H to earn back some of the respect I had lost for him in the years prior. But I had stopped meeting HIS needs in the meantime. And - wham! - the BD and A. Vicious cycle.

All that to say: it's true. Women really and truly value financial stability. We seem hard-wired for that, for better or worse. And I may be reaching here, but judging from personal experience and discussions I've had with H since he's been back home, I think men are hard-wired to provide and to succeed. And if a man feels his W is the breadwinner or more successful than he is, professionally? Sometimes - perhaps without even noticing it - I think it can damage his ego and his self-confidence. And if that's the case, he will have entered the nasty, vicious cycle. Because a woman loves and admires a *confident* man.

[alpha99]

Hi toots

You make a very good point, and I'm sure there's a lot of truth in that. In our case the last few years have been the most financially secure of our 10 years together. W's job meant We could overpay on mortgage, go on 11 holidays in a 2 year period, and have spare cash for things. Two things wrong for us though, to maximise every possibility regarding hols etc, I took tight control over finances. Too tight. W has resentment over that since she was main earner. Secondly, I have no problem with W earning more than me, I felt I was sacrificing a career to be at home, and incidentally I am the better parent by far with the kids no ego here, its just true). Time at home for me when W at work also lead to resentment. Thinking back, last Christmas I had two weeks off.over the Christmas period, w knew for weeks in advane she had to work Christmas eve, Christmas day, New years eve. She was not happy at that or at me and my time off. Again, with kids off school.there wasn't much.choice given our setup, but how now I wish the tables had turned and it was me working and her at home. No doubt her A wouldnt have taken place then and we wouldnt be here.

[alpha99]

I'm off to the language 'meet up' in a minute. This is probably the first time in my life I have voluntarily done something like this. I joined the group 2 years ago but my own (well hidden) lack of confidence and general shyness had stopped me going. W, family, and friends see me as really confident, nothing bothering me, tell people what I think. Truth is that's been a front to hide my real shyness. As part of GAL I'm facing up to this for ME so that from now on I can make the most of any opportunity that comes my way instead of ducking out of it.

[Complex]

I want to add sth: it's not only that women like security and their H to have a stable good job to provide for their family. They also want to see their H's to be passionate about something, and maybe not cars or sports if you know what I mean. Passion for what they are doing. Having a goal. Confidence. These things make us men very attractive.
What are you passionate about?

And in general you need to work on your detachment. It's very hard if you seeW constantly. It was the same for me. But I somehow managed it. My meds probably helped me. If you think you are detached, you're wrong. It's a long process and needs a lot of soul work and GAL. But you will know when you get there. Of course you'll have ups and downs still. I do all the time, but the "good days" got so much better and the had ones less, and less worse. Look at toots, she just had a pretty bad down day too, her sitch is going on for a longer time.
You asked about techniques. Not easy to answer. The technique is: detaching. Limit your contact to W. I know she's around, maybe just try to observe yourself in which situations the contact or conversation was not necessary. Think about 'why' are you talking with her right now? Just get more aware of yourself of what you are doing. The clearer the view gets the more you'll be detached.

[alpha99]

Thanks complex,

So if I understand correctly then contact should be to a minimum and when I do see her no unnecessary conversation? The first part has been quite easy, I've hardly called/texted for about 2 weeks (only kid stuff really). My problem is doing LRT when I see her every day. If we had no kids it would be simple. Since we do I'm spending time each day sat in the same room as her. In these cases I've.made neighbourly conversation like 'oh, its quite cold outside today, isn't it? And 'I saw so and so at school today. I'm confused as I thought initiating non R conversations in this manner was OK. I focus on the kids when I'm there but speak a little to her about every day stuff. Should I stop this? A week or two ago we had a 20 min car journey to her mum's house where I didn't speak to her at all. In that case she got incredibly angry. When I continued in a similar vein over a day or two she just got angrier.

I guess my problem is detaching without appearing cold or rude.

Last night's language meet up went great. I thoroughly enjoyed it. 2 hours of Italian conversation. The whole time no thoughts of my sitch. I came out of it buzzing and the thought I had was to call W and say how good it had been. Then I remembered I can't. That lowered my mood and took the edge off things.

So today, should I do another big warm hello when I knock on the door? Or should it be a breezy hi, get the kids, and go? I know the pull between logic and counter intuitive/effective. I know consistency is key. Im just struggling to find the right path in interactions: be neifhbourly nice, day to day conversation in a breezy, upbeat manner, or withdraw, speak less, still smile and be upbeat but not initiate conversation, not to expand on things if she speaks etc

[alpha99]

Well, just been for kids. As I pull up W comes out of house alone saying she has something to ask: she's not getting on with her mum (that didn't take long haha) and once again wants to move back home and I move out. I said she was free to move back home but I wouldn't be moving out. She asked why I wouldn't. I said because I own the house too and can't move in, out, in, out on her every whim. She threw a fit and said she could be nasty and go to a solicitor cos she has the kids and has a right to move in if she wants to but can't live with me so I have to move out. She said she'd have to move into a hotel. I don't think she can afford one, that's just plain crazy. Again, I repeated she could home with kids but I would be staying, and whatever she does regarding solicitors is her decision, and that I didn't want to discuss it further in front of the kids. It was a 30 sec conversation. I greeted her with a warm hello when she first approached. She was of course distracted by her imminent question.

She came with me in car to school with kids. Instead if making.conversation, for the most part I had a cd on and sang along loudly. I also spoke to the kids about our trip out tonight. They are very excited. I did say one or two things to W, day to day stuff, nothing major, just not to appear ignorant.

Her life seems no bed of roses right now, bills to pay, falling out with her mum, can't get her own way over house. She made a call en route to school to fellow school mum to meet at school and go shopping. We arrived at school a little early and she got out of car to make a secret call to someone. I'm learning not to try and mind read who to. Hopefully I handled this whole thing well, stayed calm, in control, set a boundary, validated her decisions without agreeing, got kids' excited over tea, remained upbeat and polite to W before and after her requests.

Finally, she also asked if I had separated out my stuff that I wanted. I said I hadn't (I'm in no rush). She complained it was never going to happen. I just said I didn't want to talk about things in front of the kids. She huffed and said you never do.

[alpha99]

Oh, I forgot to add: she said her mum was trying to tell her what to do. Now, limiting the mind reading I think it could be one of two things:

Telling W how to look after kids

Or

Telling W to reconsider. The reason I say this is that her mum has been warming to me the last few days. She made me a cup of tea and gave me biscuits yesterday. We had a short, pleasant exchange about the weather, the kids etc. She asked if I wanted to stay whilst kids ate their tea yesterday. I think she has seen a big change in me, regardless of whether that's what she is talking to W about or not. It would be good to get them onside. Her father also has appeared more concerned about me, asking how I am since I backslid the other day. I think he sees the pain I'm in, the situation for the kids, w's stubbornness and feels empathetic to me. As I wrote previously, he did say he was trying to drill into W how she might rethink things.

I don't know if them pressuring her (if that's what they're doing) is a good or bad thing, but DB coach asked if they were onside as it would help. I said no the other day, but maybe if they get onboard that might be a positive thing.

W wouldn't stand with me in playground. She left her bag in the car, and after I left her and said goodbye, see you later (she said it back) she called and came to get her bag. I was sat in car. As she approached I acted as if, gave her a big smile. She smiled back quite warmly for a brief moment, as if she forgot herself, before it faded. We exchanged the bag and said see you later again.

[Sotto]

Hi Alpha, I think your stance is a reasonable one and you should stick with it. Sounds as though it was well delivered.

My only comment would be, following that - singing loudly in the car to the CD. I think that could come across as uncaring. Best to maintain a steady (rather than joyful) demeanour following exchanges like that IMHO.....

[Complex]

That, and rather let her initiate the small talk.

[alpha99]

Thanks Toots, Complex,

I'm taking all that on board. I'm not sure if I overdid the singing, but I understand what you mean and how it might have been perceived.

[alpha99]

Had a fantastic time out with kids. A few moments of thinking about W not being there but mostly just getting on with things. Kids loved it.

When I took the kids back, only W was there. She had called me just as we were leaving restaurant but I ignores the call. Upon arriving back I said a warm hello, she replied. I handed over school bags and she said thank you. I stayed about 45 minutes with the kids and played with Lego etc. Kids asked W if she would come with us next time. She said we'll have to see. I noticed a few positive things tempered by one or two narky moments:

The good:

W spending more time in room whilst I'm there. She initiated conversation of a few occasions. she said please and thank you a few times. I asked for a glass of water and she got me one. I listened intently to her when she spoke. To begin with she'd have a fixed gaze.somewhere else but as I continued to look at her she would begin to look at me as she talked.

The bad:

She mentioned kids' reading report book and how now she is writing in it the teacher is giving better feedback than when I did. She claims I said previously she was too thick to write in said book (I never did, I said she.never bothered too as I did it). I didn't argue the toss, just said you're doing well, that's great.

At one point she entered room and I smiled. She asked why I had a smug look on my face. I said i was just smiling.

Her parents returned and were pleasant.

This may be the calm before the storm as W is definitely moving to rented place and so questions about sale of house and possessions to.come again.soon, but for now interactions are going alright and I can see little positive things. I hope this continues. The test will be handling her move without backsliding. Oh, no mention of her moving home again, no solicitor talk either. So that's a well.defined boundary now.

[alpha99]

I'm wondering how to deal with incidents like yesterday. I go to pick the kids up for school, after I speak to W, kids get in car, she comes back out and asks for a lift to school with me in car. She just wanted the lift to meet fellow school mum to go.off shopping. This is asking a favour of me. I said sure, yeah, no problem, but Im wondering whether that was the right thing to do. The theme of advice from you all in this thread has been detach and get a parenting plan. It is costing W £9 a day to take kids to school when I don't take them. I want to see my kids but if she could feel the financial strain and not be dependent on me then all the better to give her a chance to see life without me. Now she doesn't call in a morning so much as she just expects I will come to pick kids up.

I'm wondering whether to say it is costing too much in petrol for me to travel each day (she's offered petrol money but hasn't given any as of yet) and that I can only take kids school half the week. Good idea or not? It means stepping back from seeing kids. W wants them to move school next school year (from Sept). If that were to happen the new school is about 100 metres from her rented place. She wouldn't need/miss me at all in this regard. She can't move kids mid school term really so now is the chance to let her see life without me.

In the short term she'd no doubt complain I was letting kids down. I am unsure whether to go down this route or not. What do you think?

[Sotto]

Hi Alpha

I would take any thoughts of your W and helpfulness versus consequences out of the mix here. Do you like taking your kids to school, and would you like to continue doing this? I think that's the only factor here...

[alpha99]

Hi Toots,

Good point. I like seeing them whenever I get the chance and would like to co tinue that, although I do have the thoughts I've expressed above.

W was already in bed today when I got there to pick kids up. S6 informs me they are going to the cinema tomorrow morning with W. I would love to go as a family event.

D5 has ballet tomorrow. I've taken her last few weeks but W is off work tomorrow and will no doubt take her. D5's ballet stuff is with me though, so W will have to contact me in order to get it. I doubt she would think ahead and ask me to bring it along when getting kids later. Might be an opening to going with W and kids.

Also, finally, we had foreign hol booked for next month. Clearly we are not going on it as a family. As part of GAL I'm thinking if going alone. No way would W let me take kids at this point. I would hate to miss the hol, would be a cheap getaway for me, with side effect of W seeing I'm not sat at home waiting on her calls.

What do you think? Good idea or not.

[alpha99]

W just called asking whether I'd be at home soon as she wanted to.come and collect documents. It turns out she means wage slips. This will of course be new property related. She thought better off it in the end, not wanting to have to travel home on two buses. She said she'll she if her work could sort it out for her. She said she'll call back and let me know her plans.

5 minutes later:

Her work is sorting out her wage slips for her, so no need to come home. She also asked about school photos that had been taken this week of the children, which size, format etc I would like to buy. We made arrangements over me letting her know. The best part, in both conversations she was borderline pleasant. No animosity in her voice, she said she'd be at her mum's when I brought the kids home and I'd see her later.

I was upbeat and friendly in tone in both calls without pushing a subject or trying to drag out the conversation. I might be proved wrong but I sense a very slight softening towards me from her.

Now, back to reading DB, as I was before she called.

[Sotto]

Again - re: the holiday, I wouldn't look at this WRT your W - but if you'd love to take the kids, why not ask? Would your W like to take them? If neither of you can - go and enjoy a solo holiday I would say!

[alpha99]

Hi Toots,

I did mention the holiday about two weeks ago, on in passing and with no mention of going alone (or with kids). W said she wanted to go with kids. Since then she has found out that she hasn't been given all of her holiday requests at work and so wouldn't be able to go. The kids are on Easter holidays (the reason we originally booked to go away). I would love to go with the kids but I don't know if I could afford it now. I think some time alone would be good for me, with the added bonus that the holiday is in Italy...and I'm learning Italian.

[alpha99]

w just called again, wanting copies of statements or pictures of them sent to her. She was positively nice this time on the phone. It goes without saying that she will be nicer when she wants something from me, but there was a warmth in her voice this time. I'm not getting carried away. As I wrote earlier, since she's moving into a new place she wants what she can get from our house, and seeing some of our possessions sailing out the door is going to be hard. At the moment I'm feeling pretty good though. I've had a good week GAL, golf, poker, tea with kids, time with family, day out with kids etc. W is showing signs of being nice even when she doesn't want something. I definitely won't be getting carried away.

I'm off out in a minute to get the kids and take them back to MIL's. W will be there. I will write how that goes later. I don't plan on staying there long this evening. I wonder what the weekend holds in store.

[alpha99]

Hmmm interesting times.

Took kids back from school and spent about an hour there.

Only MIL was there when I arrived. She made me tea and gave me biscuits and was nice with me. I read with the kids and played with lego with them.

W turned up and was in quite a good mood. I gave my warm hello as she came into the room. She gave a nice hello back.

Her phone had gone off whilst she was out and so she charged it and checked messages. She had a call from her friend (the other school mum she went shopping with). It turned out later that they're out for tea this evening. But more importantly I overheard her telling her that she has a date to move into the rented place. I was playing with the kids in the same room at the time and tried not to overhear but it appeared that this Sunday she is moving in. she said on the phone that she can't wait to her friend.

She was quite friendly with me during my time there today. She initiated conversation a few times. Once about a mutual friend who has moved abroad, a few times about household bills etc (obviously with an eye to her having to pay these soon in her new place), BUT she also asked me how I was, whether I had had a good day.

I am not reading too much into this as if it was some sudden change of heart. It would appear that her upbeat mood is simply because she has had the all clear on moving into her new place.

She didn't tell me herself that she had a moving date. As I left we stood on the front step. she asked if I wanted to have the kids tomorrow and asked if I had plans. I said I love having them and had no plans during the daytime. W is taking D5 to ballet in the morning (but hasn't realised I have her ballet stuff at home) and mentioned she might go to the cinema afterwards. I said just let me know what you're doing and I can have them for a bit if you like. My hope is that in the morning when she realises she doesn't have the ballet stuff, she will have to get in touch with me and maybe we could all go to the cinema together. I certainly wasn't going to ask for an invite though.

As we stood on the doorstep I said it's nice to see you happy (as she was almost beaming). I said 'in fact, you seem particularly happy today'. She made no mention of the rented place, said she was out for tea with her friend, BUT ALSO mentioned that she doesn't want to fight with me as it doesn't get us anywhere. She said she wants to be nice with me for the children.

I left having mixed feelings about this. It is great that she is being a bit nicer towards me, and if she weren't to argue, be nasty etc towards me from now on that would be great. The downside of all this is that she appears to be so happy because things are going well for her. She is moving to a new place and is all excited about it, and doesn't seem in the slightest to be bothered about our R. When I backslid the other day she said then that she had done all her grieving over the relationship at Christmas time and now felt fine.

I suppose if we start to get on better it stands to reason that we may spend more time together in the coming weeks 'as a family'. If that is the case it gives me more opportunity to work on myself and show these changes off to her. Certainly it seems that for things to get better we would need to get on with each other better than she has been towards me recently.

Also once she is in her own place, I will no doubt be there each day to see the kids (before and after school) BUT without the awkwardness and distraction of having her parents there all the time. They have been nice but W relies on them really to cook tea for kids, mind them a lot etc. When they are gone that support network will be reduced and she will have to shoulder the responsibility. I think at this point financial concerns, feelings of loneliness might set in.

one month ago, at the time A was exposed, she said that she wanted to work things out but even so would need to rent her own place. A lot has happened since then and we seem to have gotten quite far away from those claims, but they are in the back of my mind - I would happily sell our house and move in with her in the rented place at some point in the future to be together as a family again.

I gave a little wave goodbye as I said goodbye and left. W waved back and said goodbye.

What would you make of all this? Should I be happy? Is this a necessary step in the long process to hopefully making things better. Is there reason to be down at all? In her own place W is of course free (as she sees it) to have anyone around who she likes. I do believe A is over now. My own feeling is more of being down due to it seeming like she really is moving to her own place, talk of house sale will undoubtedly follow, and possession splitting. I will try hard to get through those moments in the hope that we can slowly, slowly begin to work things out at some point in the future.

Sorry for rambling.

[Vapo]

Dude, do not try to read ANYTHING into her actions. NOTHING. If she called it quits you can be sure it was not a spur of the moment thing. And she hasn't come to the conclusion quickly, more likely than not, she's been brewing for years. So do not expect her to "come to her senses" any time soon. Do not focus on her. There is NOTHING you can do or say that will get her back to you. But here is stuff that you can to that would close the door forever. No not pursue her, do not beg, do not plead, do not reason with her. That ship has sailed.
You need to focus on yourself, you need to be the best dad you can be. You can do nothing for your W. Dress nicer, smell nicer, be groomed, get a life, go do stuff that you want to do, become a happy, confident, successful man, that only a fool would leave. And even then you might not get your W back.

You have to own your $hit. Recognize your faults, recognize your shortcomings, work on them and erase them. You also have to take a journey, you also have to better yourself, and lord knows there is plenty of room for improvement in all of us. A LOT! So keep your chin up, get a life and be the best damn self you can be.

[alpha99]

Excellent advice Vapo. I know you're right. I have been following what you've written to a T I think with only one backslide...as far as I can see anyway.

I have started wearing smarter clothes (jeans, shirt, jacket, tie, new shoes), different deodorant, New aftershave, bodywash etc, I now have glasses, and also had teeth fixed, cleaned, and whitened. In the last week I've been to the gym 4 times, a day out with kids to the fair, a restaurant with kids, played poker, played golf, and gone to a language exchange. I don't think I've called W all week. I understand what you are saying and even despite the friendlier atmosphere with W I am still holding back, being cautious.

Does anyone else have an opinion on my message above?

[alpha99]

I've been throwing up all night. Had dodgy food and so I think it's food poisoning.

W has called three times already this morning. I answered the third call.

She asked how I was. I said I am ill.

It turns out my son is also ill and has been up all night too.

W wanted me to mind daughter, take her to ballet.

Obviously I can't cos I'm ill.

Daughter will miss ballet and go with W and son to docs.

W was pleasant on the phone, apologised for calling early, said she hopes I feel better soon.

That's brightened my day.

Now I'm off to throw up again...

[alpha99]

I've had a terrible day today through illness. W called earlier asking again about school photos. Since I was in pain I wasn't 'so' friendly and upbeat on the phone. W was a little short with me due to this. No biggy, I can't be upbeat and friendly the very moment I'm throwing up. As soon as I feel better I will go back to 'upbeat, friendly guy!'

[Complex]

Hope you'll get better soon alpha.
It sounds like you are also taking good care of yourself which is great. You're allowed to be ill lol. You'll be great again after!
Thanks for your replies in my thread. I really need those posituve words today. For crap like this my meds are not strong enough^^

I went to the Korean Spa. Sauna, TV, eating and hanging out. But I have no clue what to do with myself the rest of the day...

[twinmom]

What is her obsession with these pictures? Pick a dang picture and be done with it...... if someone bothered me about pictures when they knew I was sick I would be very irritated with them.

And THIS is why you let it go to voicemail most of the time.....

[alpha99]

Complex, do you belong to a gym? I've found going there a lot recently has definitely helped.

Twinmom, I have been ignoring her calls. As I said, I answered at the third time of asking. Once I knew son was ill I had to answer when she called a little later. I can't tell whether she is just finding excuses to call me now or whether she just wants things sorted when it suits her. I think it is mainly the latter but since I have stepped back a lot I don't really know.

I texted her yesterday afternoon asking 'how is S6? Is he felling better?

She called back 30 minutes later and was pleasant as she explained what's up eith him. She said she'd call later on to give me an update but never did. She was meant to be at work last night but I wonder whether or not she went with son being ill. Previously we would never have dreamt.of going to work when kids were so ill. If she has left S6 in care of her parents then that would be disappointing.

I feel quite a bit better now. It's nearly 7am here now. I've been dripping in.sweat all night though.

Today is Mother's Day. I had bought cards from children for W. After reading through some of Sandi's old posts it seems the advice is to ignore all occasions. Therefore, having been ill and not really have been in touch much last few days, I don't plan on.contacting W at all today and WON'T be giving her Mother's Day cards. If she calls me, I'll keep conversation strictly to children.

What do you think of that?

[alpha99]

W has just called.

Son is in hospital. She thinks it is his appendix. I suddenly feel so low. She says she'll let me know in an hour or two if I can come up and see him. Apparently there's only room for one person.

I wonder how to handle this. I can see myself getting emotional at the hospital.

[alpha99]

Just to add to that, she said on the phone I appear a lot brighter. I do feel better from my illness today. She also complained I didn't call or text to see how son was. I said I did text, she called back and then said she'd call later on...but didn't. I also said I've been ill too. She sounded a little disgruntled at this and also said I sound a little off with her on the phone. I said I'm worried about son.

Oh how I hate this. My son is in hospital and I can't be there. W doesn't update me and I get the blame. Some days are really hard. I can't get emotional to W today. How do I remained detached from W when son is laying in hospital?

[Sotto]

Hi Alpha, so sorry to hear S isn't well. Sounds like he's in the best place though. Try not to worry about your relationship today. Just focus on S, and getting through this, whilst supporting your W....(())

[alpha99]

In hospital now. W trying to initiate small conversation. We have slightly argued over money she owes me. She asked if I could take D to school tomorrow. I said yes but its costing me quite a bit in petrol. She complained that S is in hospital and I shouldn't be asking. I said I only mentioned it cos she brought up lift to school. She said I was being horrible in asking for money. I said she had made no attempt in weeks to pay me what she owes.

I am so confused. Been sat here for over an hour with W now in hospital. She wants to chat and be 'nice' but clearly isn't ready to talk about R. I know I need to give her time but it's so hard when you are near each other. Her final comment was she would pay me the money tomorrow and then she wouldn't owe me anything any more.

S was nearly sick earlier but now has settled. This is such a hard day. Does w mean everything she says? I guess not. Will she ever change her mind? Who knows? I can only wait and see. That is the hardest thing. If I didn't see her so often it wouldn't be so difficult to detach, seeing her in these circumstances only makes thing worse.

...

Ok, back from hospital now. Overall impression, things didn't go too well but on the other hand I set in motion some 180s and set some boundaries.

To this point W must sense I have been 'hanging on'. For all my changes I've backslid the odd time and that seems to have left her thinking she is in control. Well, at the hospital earlier she asked to switch seats so she was nearer to son. I said no. She was only about 2ft away from him anyway. She said I was being horrible. To this point I have either dragged my feet or got upset over house sale and splitting possessions. Today, in a moment of irritation, I told her I was there to see my son and not to speak to her, and in a calm way I said 'I don't care now anyway, you can go to hell'. I said I was switching off the gas and electric for the house, and the water too. She seemed shocked by this latter thing.

What brought about me saying these things? Her acting like I'm some distant relative who gets to find things out at some later date. She didn't contact me all evening to say son was in hospital, only 7am this morning. In hospital she's acting like only she cares about son, knows what's wrong with him, and i should be grateful see even contacted me at all. She said she could have made me wait til visiting hours to go and see him.

Well, detaching just got a lot easier. She's acting like a self centred little kid, and honestly, right now I eouldnt want to be with her. She's not the woman I marries and fell in love with.

I'm thinking of telling her I'm moving on and won't be waiting around moping and pining for her. What do you think? It would be a massive 180, a little risky too I know. I feel as long as she thinks Im just holding out for her then she's in.control. I think full LRT mode is in order. Pick up/drop kids off at the door, have fun out with them a few evenings a week. Be upbeat and positive when I see her. Don't initiate conversation but be neigjbourly and do speak to her if she speaks to me. Act as if I'm getting on with my life, which to a fair degree I am. Dont inform her of what Im up to in my free time. Be mysterious. Leave hee to.imagine. wait and see what happens.

[Sotto]

Hi Alpha, I'm so sorry S is still in hospital - poor lad. I think in family emergencies like this, it is best to try and put your own issues about the R to one side, and help the family through it.

S doesn't want to lie ill in bed whilst you and W argue by the bedside. If your D needs taking to school, take her to school. When your S is in hospital - that isn't the time to threaten turning off the gas. In fact if your kids are living in the house, turning off the gas and water presumably isn't an option.

You may want to think about taking the focus off your W and focus on being the great Dad you want to be for your kids. That is something for you and for them. Ultimately in these sitches, your relationship with yourself and with the kids is the most important thing - Your M may or may not survive this, but you'll always be Dad to them.

Hope S improves and is home again soon. Take care Alpha.

[alpha99]

Thanks Toots,

Just to be clear, W has moved out with kids. I am barely at home myself, mainly at parents. W says she won't pay any household bills despite co-owning the place, hence my decision to turn gas off as she wants to sell anyway. W won't let kids stay with me at mo anyway.

I spent 99% of time there focused on my son. W initiated all conversation. I will take my daughter to school but finances are tough at the mo. W is receiving tax credits etc for kids but seems to spend it on clothes, nights out, make up etc. I only have my wage and spending a lot on petrol recently.

Already I'm seeing that it would be possible for me to live my life alone,.or in.time with someone else. I don't want that of course, but I am beginning to feel like if it came to it then it's something I could live with. I left hospital cos my S asked.me to.go. nothing to do with conversations with W etc, more that he's being spoilt rotten at the moment and her brainwashing is turning kids against me. His eyes lit up when I mentioned playing football in the park or going bowling when he's better. Like I say, he's being spoilt rotten, I can see their schoolwork falling behind as wife doesn't focus on them, their diets suffering as they gorge on chocolate and crisps. In other words, everything I always strived to avoid is happening in spades now, and I'm powerless to stop it at the moment. It's sickening.

[alpha99]

What could I do that would shock W into thinking my life is going on without her?

Clear the house of all my possessions in preparation for house decoration and sale.

GAL activities, poker, cinema, golf, gym, time with friends, kids.

Go on holiday on my own.

Dress smartly, be pleased with myself and positive.

[twinmom]

If the kids are not properly being taken care of then take legal steps to have them in your care.
DON'T turn this into a blame game.

And fyi thinking that your kids are being brainwashed shows you have a very negative image of your wife and that most likely seeps through during your interactions. That's not good for any relationship.

[twinmom]

What could I do that would shock W into thinking my life is going on without her?

Clear the house of all my possessions in preparation for house decoration and sale.

GAL activities, poker, cinema, golf, gym, time with friends, kids.

Go on holiday on my own.

Dress smartly, be pleased with myself and positive.

STOP, stop doing things with the purpose of getting a reaction from your wife. Make changes that are lifelong, good for YOU changes. Not "get a reaction" changes.

[twinmom]

If you don't have money for gas to take the kids to school why the he!! would you go on vacation?!?!

[alpha99]

The holiday is already booked. I wouldn't need much spending money as I'm.very frugal. It would be more just a break away from things.

Regarding shocking W, my question is a direct quote from DR.

You're right twinmom, my opinion of W's parenting skills is poor. She's just not very good at looking after them, disciplining them, doing homework, maintain a good diet etc. I can't afford expensive legal fees and also I feel that would worsen things long term.

I have tried very hard not to say anything bad about W in front of kids. I haven't really said anything bad about her to anyone. I suppose I've come here to vent a bit. I'm not nasty or angry towards her. I guess the worse thing I've said in the last 6 weeks was today when I said I don't care anymore, she coukd go to hell. Even that was in a quiet calm voice. I know I shouldnt have said it though. That's the one thing I regret from today.

If I look back this last week has been positive, she's initiated conversation, asked me how I was, looked me in the eye when talking, no mention of big D, wanted to be nice for kids...but I think it's mainly all stemmed from her excitedness over New place rather than changes in feeling towards me.

[Vapo]

Dude, take a look, you are nasty to her and you are angry. _it is hard not being angry. But don't get all judgmental and saintly. You have to own your $hit also. And I agree with twinmom. You bitching about fuel costs and you are planing a vacation.

You do need to take a good hard look at yourself. YOU ARE NOT WITHOUT BLAME IN THE DEMISE OF YOUR M. Write a list what your wife would say your faults were. Think long and hard. Then go trough all the points and asses your involment. AND BE HONEST, because you are only cheating yourself if you are not honest. Then own your mistakes and start working towards fixing them. But you have to fix them for you and not for your W. AND DROP THE ATTITUDE.

Your wife if surely not stuffing them with choc and candy and do not turn this into a blame game. And esp. with your S being in hospital you acting like an ASS in UNACCEPTABLE. Take the higher road man and don't be an A-hole.

And STOP READING INTO HER MIND AND ACTIONS, because you do not know what she thinks and frankly it is none of your business. And the sooner you face this fact, the better it will be for you.

And lastly, GET THE F... OUT OF THE VICTIM MODE AND/OR MENTALITY.

[twinmom]

Get your emotions in check.... I managed to get through labor and delivery with only one "I love you"....... when my H was living with another woman and our daughter was being born last June.

W has just called.

Son is in hospital. She thinks it is his appendix. I suddenly feel so low. She says she'll let me know in an hour or two if I can come up and see him. Apparently there's only room for one person.

I wonder how to handle this. I can see myself getting emotional at the hospital.

[alpha99]

I don't think there is going to be any sort of progress in terms of moving things forward whilst W has visions of a trouble free life in her new place. Knowing her as I do, I would give it two months tops before she is in some sort of financial mess. Only when things go wrong and her bubble gets burst do I feel things might change. Who knows how I'll feel if and when that point arrives. I do feel my love for her slowly draining over time...that does sadden me. Maybe that is because of how she is behaving right now. Maybe things would change again should she change her behaviour. I don't say that as me waiting for her to change. I am changing myself FOR MYSELF and I like the person I am becoming, more outgoing and confident, doing new things and rediscovering old ones. I just don't know at the moment if I would even want her back in the future the way things stand. As ever, this might be my emotions speaking - hence writing this here rather than speaking to her about them.

I do love my children and want them to have a happy family environment but it has dawned on me how things could never be how they were before. I see my children changing in such a short time. I love them so much.

I'm at the hospital now. After this morning I'm being a lot nicer and pleasant to to W. She is not really reciprocating. I don't expect her to, to be honest. She is being quite cold with me, not really speaking much, only being cordial when the nurses are around.

I have been reading a lot of Sandi's posts today, particularly those about LBS and how to deal with WW who is having/has had an affair. Her approach seems to be quite tough on WW, let her feel loss, detach, don't celebrate occasions, cut out acts of service, work on yourself. I have to wait at the moment because when my son is not well (hopefully he's discharged in a few hours) I can't go making big changes. I do plan on being cordial, upbeat, and positive around her as per LRT, I just wonder whether I need to cut back in other areas.

I'm writing this in stages throughout hospital visit. W varying in her responses to me, one moment kinda pleasant, the next nasty. A few minutes ago she was sat with her back to me and S. I noticed she was eating and looked across to see what. She saw me looking and blew her top, resulting in her saying she doesn't have to justify what she eats to me. I literally didn't say anything but she's certain I looked at her like scum. DB coach reckons it might be self recrimination on W's part. Who knows?

I've been testing the water by randoming allowing my text notification to go off whilst I'm here. W has noticed, not said anything but is clearly wondering who it is. She tried to glance at my I don't really get many texts from friends etc and she knows family is at work hahaha. International man of mystery I am. Each time it goes off I'm adding a sentence to this post.

[alpha99]

Just to add to above, the last 5 minutes.of conversation went downhill. W was.goading m. I asked a question about the ward my mum works on and referred to ward next door that W works on. W thought I meant I was going to expose hee A at work. I resisted talking about it and left. She followed me shouting and finally things got the better of me, I said...what's your bosses name?

Having got home and cooled down, I called W to ask about S and D and school arrangements. Whilst on the phone R comes up. She says she can't see us getting back together cos too much has happened. I decided to play hard ball. I said I wanted to move on with my life and that if either of us were to meet someone else then it would be better if we knew that the ship had sailed regarding our R. I made it clear I'm not pleading etc, I just want to know the situation for both of us.

She asked if I had met someone. I didn't answer. She said she has no plans to.meet anyone ever again (err ok). She seems to have no imminent plans to divorce as she said it is too expensive. She said why can't we just be nice to each other like we have all week? Why are you being nasty?

Earlier I'd mentioned I can't take kids to school and back every day. It's costing me too much. She threw an almighty wobbled. I feel like I'm at the last throw of the dice here.

She said we'd talk about R tomorrow. Call ended on a positive note. I don't knowif I want to speak to her tomorrow. It's equal love/resentment at the moment for my part.

[twinmom]

Ok..... last advice from me for today...

STOP DOING THINGS TO GET A REACTION FROM YOUR WIFE!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Where is the list of things you need to work on to make yourself a better person? I'm not talking about buying new clothes, I'm taking about patience/positive outlook/volunteering/career/work ethic.....

[alpha99]

You're right twinmom...I need to pull myself together...quickly.


Things I need to work on:

Be more patient
Less derogatory
Less sarcastic in general
Get a full time job that pays well
Not being nasty if arguments occur
Be more confident (not just appear so)
Be independent
Make new friends
Find new hobbies


Complaints wife would have of me:

She's the breadwinner/I haven't worked enough the last few years.
I make a joke of almost everything
I'm incredibly sarcastic
I put her down when we argue/have showed a lack of respect towards her.
Name calling in arguments
Haven't showed her enough affection recently
Controlling and argumentative/brash on occasion

There's probably others but that's off the top of my head.

My good qualities:

I can be kind and considerate.
I'm an excellent father.
I can be a good listener.
I'm eager to help in times of crisis.
I iron w's clothes for work/prepare her food/ wait for her.to come home and ave bath run/food/tea ready.
Drive her to work/pick her up when we have car.
Ensured financial stability allowing for mortgage overpayments and numerous holidays (she sees this as controlling...I agree to an extent)

Again, off the top of my head.

[alpha99]

Ok, update time.

As S in hospital, W and I spent a lot of time together yesterday and today.

The brown stuff hit the fan. I backslid (again, I know arghhh) big time. Got emotional due to son being ill (longest ever stay in hospital) and things went downhill. I asked for reassurances and got none. W won't divorce now due to cost but wants a fresh start, can't trust me, doesn't love me, wants to be nice and.amicable for kids.

MIL wants to call police and solicitors over harrassment. Background: w dictating when I can see son, for how long, what time, won't let me speak to doctor etc. A few hours have passed, W calmed down slightly.

I realise this is my LAST CHANCE. If I blow it once more MIL will railroad W through divorce.

[Starsky309]

Oy vey.

[alpha99]

I know I'm hearing.all good advice, reading it in.the books, and then veering off at times on my own crazy direction. I have to be more disciplined. I really, REALLY do.

I know I can resolve this through my own actions. I will change. For me. For my children. Yes, for my wife. If she doesn't notice or care then I will still reap the benefits for the rest of my life.

[Sotto]

Hi Alpha. It's one thing reading it and it all makes sense. It all becomes more difficult faced with your WAS. But as you say, you know what you need to to and you know that the right action is what's needed.

At the moment it sounds as though things are spiraling downwards with you and your W. It takes two for that to happen and one can change the dynamic. If you can think about 'flashpoints' beforehand and plan your responses, maybe that would help?

If in doubt, maybe revisit DR or DB armed with a pencil and reflect on recent poor exchanges with your W. All is not lost and we all make mistakes. The key is to learn from that, change, and not keep on making them!

[alpha99]

Thank you so much Toots. The words of encouragement and advice from yourself and other very kind users here are REALLY, REALLY the only things that keep me going and give me hope at times.

Had a great week this week interaction wise. It's all gone belly up big time since S has been ill. As I said, I got emotional, pleading, begging, crying. I know I can't do this but I do. You're right, I need to go.through flashpoints and chance my approach. So hard when S is laying in hospital and W says I can't see him tonight, nor my daughter. We had minor altercation in school playground today. Earlier in day I threatened to k!ll myself. Not a serious threat, just an incredibly stupid, desperate thing.

I know I'm hanging on by a thread now before MIL takes bull by horns (she is quite well off) and finances D for W. THIS IS MY LAST CHANCE.

like I said, week prior to this has been good. I've logged out of YouTube and emails so no spying on spouse. Final thing on this: W listening to if you're not the one by Daniel bedingfield just before all this kicked off. She was far nicer to me. Song, in case you don't know, is about feeling like you should be with someone even if you know you shouldnt. Could be OM related but somehow I don't think so. She had been softening. Did I blow it at the first sign of improvement. We have DEFINITELY gone back about a month cos.of today. Hope D proceedings don't get underway. W herself said not now but does want D, clean start etc. hope MIL doesn't take over.

I miss my son and daughter. D said she misses me this morning.

I WILL BE THERE FOR MY CHILDREN WHATEVER HAPPENS.

When they were born, I walked out of hospital and thought to myself 'I will do everything in my life I can.for those children'. I always have. I always will.

To some degree or other I will always love my W. I know this. If I didnt life would be easier. I need to be her friend now, only her friend for now, and see over time how that goes. She has keys to nee place tonight/first thing tomorrow. More hard times ahead. I am prepared for this. Sorted out a lot of my stuff.

Don't know what to say really, just about the lowest point in my life really. Tomorrow can only be better. Life goes on. My children do love me. I will only ever show them love. I have no one in the world (physically, I mean) to help me. I will stand tall tomorrow, see my son, daughter, get things back on track.

[alpha99]

W still communicating. S home from hospital. Thank goodness. S being well is the main thing. W doesn't want me to do school tomorrow as her F has day off. I will take my medicine and do as requested the next week or so. Short term pain for long term gain. I do get the feeling left alone W will revert back to this last week's behaviour. I hope so. If we are at 'being nice for kids' stage again that would be a foothold to work from. Get the feeling she'll want me to take kids to school come Tuesday. Feeling very tired now.

[alpha99]

After yesterday's fireworks, a quiet day today (for now). NC with kids today bit W has texted twice in response to my asking about S. She sent two, two word replies, so very frosty then. At least she replied. No more contact until she gets in.touch with me.

I've been re-reading DR again. It's making more sense each time as things get ever more real for me. I have to, have to, have to follow the book. No more deviating of just plain old begging/pleading EVER.

I think I've put myself back a good three weeks because of yesterday. I will have to tread carefully from now on. I am coming to understand the full meaning of detachment and understand it is so hard to do. I need to though. I'm going to up my social activities to keep busy, GAL, and not dwell so much on things. I know *this* situation right now ain't forever. My children will ALWAYS love me. I will only ever show them love.

[alpha99]

W coming within the hour to get her stuff with FIL. Any advice on how to deal with this?

She's very angry at the moment. Won't let me see kids cos she doesn't trust me after yesterday.

[Starsky309]

Yes: CONTROL YOURSELF.

[twinmom]

May I suggest not being there if you are not positive you can handle seeing her......

Get your emotions under control!

[alpha99]

(Thank you both for your replies... I didn't have chance to reply before W came)

W just been. It went as well as it possibly could. I prepared myself for her likely frosty reception but acted as if she would be pleased to see me. She came with FIL. He is a very, very passive, non confrontational person, so that was no problem.

W stayed about 20 minutes or so, didn't take many possessions really, and only complained over the Wii. Says she will come back another day for another rummage.

I think I handled it really well. I'm quite proud of myself. What a terrible, horrible thing to have to do...and right after S's illness too. But for the first time post split I think I handled a major event very well indeed. This is the blueprint for how to handle future flashpoints. W still very, very angry with me over my behaviour this last few days but I'm sure time on her own in her own place will calm her down.

Reading about detachment definitely helped today, as did discussing things at length properly for the first time with my F. I explained DR principles and his intrusive, must know everything right now attitude hadn't helped. He understands this and it has changed his perspective on things.

I've read alot of success stories today for inspiration. They made me feel good. They made me think that no matter how bleak and miserable things are today, they can always get better tomorrow. That's not to say they will, and if they don't I'm slowly learning how to deal with things.

On the GAL front, I've been to the gym today, set a new PB for my run that I do. Had a family meet up in a cafe this morning. Watched some sport this afternoon. Out for some fresh air after W left as I've stopped to write this.

A few days away from my kids is heartbreaking but they will grow up to know that their dad loves them more than anything in the world. Of course W loves them too. They will see nothing but love from me.

I feel this is a turning point, not in my sitch, but rather in how I am going to be able to cope emotionally going forward. Sure, there may be shocks, there may be setbacks, and I may backslide once or twice, but now I know I an strong enough to go through this. I need to have patience too of course, and that will undoubtedly be tested.

[alpha99]

One example exchange from this evening. W phoned:

W: hi, can you bring me the big TV and blu ray player?
M: err what, when do you want that, now, or tomorrow? What do you mean?
W: oh it doesn't matter.
M: I just mean I don't know when you want me to bring it.
W: well, now if you can.
M: ok. If I bring them up soon then would it be OK to see the kids for a bit? How are they?
W: oh I don't have to meet your demands. You can't demand you'll see the kids whenever you want. Forget it. I'll just buy a new TV.
M: It wasn't a demand, it was just a question. I haven't seen the kids and I miss them.
W: well I don't think it's fair that you won't give me the TV and you get all the stuff. Ive got a lot to pay for and you're keeping everything. We're going to have to go through the courts over the stuff aren't we?
M: what? Who said that? We've said we'll split the stuff. I've just said I'll bring the TV. I just asked about seeing the kids.
W: not now, I'm so angry. Oh now you're saying I can have the TV.

Conversation reaches conclusion with her saying she'll be home in a bit.

Yes, I've got emotional, I've said stupid, angry things on occasion (mainly last few days) but this incoherent babble from W is hard to deal with. Thankfully I was calm, didn't get angry, and dealt with it in the best way I could. I think I did a good job. At least I hope I did.

[Starsky309]

Wow. Is she on something? That's just insane.

[alpha99]

Hi Starksy, that is how A LOT of conversations have gone recently. It's easy to see how backsliding happens when W, after we'd got on quite well throughout the week, didn't want me to come and see my son in hospital. She didn't want me to see the doctor or discuss anything with the nurses. Doc came when I was there, I made a few comments over son using an inhaler, W was nice. As soon as doc went we had a very similar crazy conversation about how I overruled, dominated the conversation, didn't know anything about my son, was wrong in everything I'd said. I said he uses an inhaler and sometimes coughs. That's pretty much it. W said he rarely coughs and I was wrong. I thought to myself that his little baulking cough had probably gone unnoticed by her but didn't say anything. All his inhalers are at home so I doubt he'd used it recently. W had to leave ward for about 40 minutes. As soon as she left S coughed. I decided I'd count. 12 baulking coughs in 40 minutes. Whatever she says I won't withhold information or stand idlely by when S or D's health is in question. There are limits to everything, even stepping back and biting your tongue. If I had to choose again, I'd do exactly the same thing in this case