Zelda - I want it all, all right now.

[Zelda09]

Figured I'd put my core issue front and center as the title.

My previous threads are in newcomers, and I've been gently pointed in this direction.

H is depressed and in his words 'professionally recovering' from an accident 3yrs ago. Something in my soul rolls it's eyes and loses patience, but I have promised myself I'd find empathy and take this seriously, as valid. I struggle with this.

I struggle with a basic dynamic where he feels defensive and lesser than me, and suffering his defensive-angry attacks and pity parties. In the height of a fight earlier this week, he basically told me that he doesn't want to be here. He has always said things in the height of his emotion, ready at the drop of a hat to throw our R away. It's traumatic to me.

I struggle with a different set of values, an internal/external locus of control points of view. To him, everyone is a victim or product of their circumstances. To me, we all have choices.we are at odds all the time coming out of these philosophies.

I struggle with the feeling that I am stepping on eggshells. If I don't deliver on his rigid expectations of how communication should go, he's all over me like white on rice. I feel H uses his own feelings as a defense against mine. Recent example - brings up his feelings and thoughts of suicide if I express struggling with any hurt myself.

I struggle with what seems like a one sided dynamic where he's expressed that he needs care, help, he is the one that has a right to be struggling. I don't want to be put into a caretaker role for the rest of my life. I fear that he will never step up to the plate as an equal provider. Though he has our retirement taken care of, it doesn't translate to life right now.

I struggle with knowing I want a family. I am running out of time. Briefly I thought egg freezing, but after research, no...H is very hesitant.

I am struggling with my changes of course - digesting feelings, not throwing them at him; backing off of a point if the conversation gets tense; not judging him against my values; not criticizing; listening without my agenda lurking nearby

I am struggling to accept him. Developmentally, he is a teenage boy. Still looking for others to teach him about him, expects everyone to nurture and lift him up, still trying to define himself and figure out what he wants in his life. This self preoccupation and lack of boundaries with others is repulsive to me. A mutual friend described his behavior as Unfathomably needy. This is his journey and it makes me so nervous, the implications it all has on the life we'll have together. But he wants to grow and is seeing an IC.

I am struggling not to put all my energy and focus into fixing all of this.

We are struggling with trust, unable to see if we are seeing things as they are it with all past disappointments and resentfulness. We arouse the fight or flight response in each other constantly.

I struggle with hopelessness, feeling like none of this will change and I need to quit trying so hard.

I am struggling for the first time, ever...with thoughts of walking away, giving up. It just feels like too much sometimes.

Looking for practical advice on handling going forward.

[Vanilla]

Z and Gan

Posted some far scope on flooding on Gans thread.

dealing with the part that floods

V

[Heart14]

Z, thanks for the summary.

I struggle with a different set of values, an internal/external locus of control points of view. To him, everyone is a victim or product of their circumstances. To me, we all have choices.we are at odds all the time coming out of these philosophies.

Understanding and supporting our spouses is hard when we see the world so differently. When my H was depressed he had the exact same mentality as your H. It was infuriating, but ultimately I wasn't going to change that. He had to see things on his own. All I could do was validate how he felt. Not agree with it, just show I understood he had a different POV.

Have you considered setting a time limit for yourself? Maybe 6 months where you don't consider leaving . Then evaluate how you feel like at the end of the time period?

Every situation is different. I felt like piecing was/is harder than the crisis period. The first few months after H and I recommitted to our M were shaky. It did get better though. Patience and time will help.

[Vanilla]

Z

Lets just reframe this. Neither internal nor external locus is superior over the other. Both are limited in their own ways.

I have always been told that it is adaptability that is important, the ability to switch from one to the other to suit circumstances. The core of the serenity prayer

Lord, give me the Serenity to accept the things I cannot change (external), the courage to change the things I can (interrnal), and the wisdom to know the difference.

I have never really understood why internal locus has been considered the more desirable!

internal and external locus

which is better?

V has a view that someone with a strong internal locus of control needs the opposite in a partner to balance it. In practice though why not be flexible Z and switch between the two? This is a question of belief which is mutable, it can be changed consciously by developing skills.

See this as an opportunity

V

[Zelda09]

Thank you all for the input.

I don't want to think about leaving. I know I should not see one if us as 'better' - how destructive.

Panicking. H admitted tonight he feared he may be mentally ill. We'd just come back from a MC session, things have been well enough. Topic was varied but in part about him learning to trust me to open up. Tonight he said many things about just wanting to be happy. I responded in empathy...and we got there.

Feeling stuck and fearful. Fearful there is something inside him that wants to be this way. He enjoyed all the attention he got after the accident, like thrived on it. I know he is struggling.

I suppose next you all will tell me there is no point in worrying about his choices and attitudes, I can't control any of it?

[Vanilla]

Yes Z

You did not cause it, cant control it and cant cure it.

V

[susana4]

Zelda -

(((Z)))

This all sounds very challenging. Hugs to you. Keep going, dear Z.

I am going to say something that may sound a little strange but I take it as a positive that your H said he fears he may be mentally ill. My thinking is, if he thought that he was acting completely normally and that his thought processes at hte moment (e.g. threatening suicide when you talk about your problems) was normal, I would be more worried. The fact he recognises he may have an issue - that's good. That's the first step.

I can't remember if you said before, but is H seeing an IC? Sounds like he has some individual issues he needs to work through.

[Zelda09]

This is a good point ^

He is seeing an IC and I meet with our MC independently sometimes myself. I like having these professionals in our life bc they keep us accountable and have been the voice of reason saying to each of us, you can't have all your changes right now - be patient and keep the focus on yourselves.

Things have been steady and improving. Not much to post about at the moment, so that is good.

[Vanilla]

Z

just let H deal with his dilemmas.

The professionals are key in dealing with this stuff, glad we live in the era we live in.

Sometimes the spaces are where the real thinking and personal development takes place.

Thank you for your help on my sitch Z

V

[susana4]

Z, how are things? So glad to hear it's been peaceful there.

[Zelda09]

I'm having a rough day. I just feel like he hates me. Without that anger defense in left with a ton of hurt and self-hatred. Why he can talk to an ex, and not me. Why I'm gone for two days for work and he doesn't miss me, but mentions arguing with me in his head. I feel far from loved. This morning in a disappointed outburst he threw our relationship up again - why are we here, why are we doing this? It's the 3rd time. We talked about this at counseling, that this is traumatic and not fair.

I'm just tired of this. I don't know why we're doing it. Not today.

[susana4]

Zelda, I'm so sorry. Hugs. Maybe it's a case of a few steps forward, one back. I don't know, I've never pieced, but it seems to me it could be.

Why I'm gone for two days for work and he doesn't miss me, but mentions arguing with me in his head.
HOw do you know he doesn't miss you? Is this mind reading or did he say it?

I feel far from loved.
Why do you think that is? Is he meeting your ENs? Maybe he's missing out on your LL. Does he know? Have you told him very specifically what you need?

What does your MC say about all of it?

[Zelda09]

He said as much.

Love languages...just seems so far from the truth. The basic truth is he's just not into me anymore.

[susana4]

Z ((()))

HUGE hugs to you today.

Zelda, if he wasn't into you anymore, would he be there? I don't think he would be working on the M.

Remember this - love is a choice.

[Zelda09]

He apologized yesterday for the threats about leaving me, just said it was not the kind of person he wanted to be. We are both still trying to process anger and resentment.

I get more reassurance he is here to stay and we are doing our best. Having people over today. I'm just so weary of the roller coaster. Is this normal during piecing?

I am encouraged that on the whole, we are having better communication.

All I want is stability. And for him to get out of the house and start doing the things that will bring him happiness, but I can't do much about that one.

[Heart14]

I get more reassurance he is here to stay and we are doing our best. Having people over today. I'm just so weary of the roller coaster. Is this normal during piecing?

In my experience, this was very normal. We started piecing at the end of July/beginning of August. It felt very precarious until mid October. H said a handful of times during those months that we wouldn't be able to get through because it was too hard. It was infuriating. Eventually things started clicking better and he stopped making those comments. It just takes a lot of patience and time.

It's great that you are seeing improvements in your communication. Keep your focus on the positive changes as much as you can. You've got this, Z!

[Zelda09]

Thanks, Heart. He has said a couple of times now that he is amazed at the faith he has in this R after everything.

[susana4]

Hi Z, I'm so glad communication is improving but I'm sorry you're still on the rollercoaster.

I don't know anything about piecing but I've been reading up on T0324's threads recently because someone mentioned them (they said some aspects of my sitch sounded like hers), and it sounded like a roller coaster in piecing to me. If you look at her last couple of threads they are the piecing ones.

[Zelda09]

Things got violent last night. I just can't believe it.

When I got home, H hadn't picked up any of the platters or food we'd ordered and people were on the way. I just set my things down and headed out the door for the store. He mumbled something about how he was going to wait for one of our guests to get there to help him run the errand - earlier in the day, it was something he could commit to, driving down the street. Whatever. I got back home and there was a small group already there. We had a nice time, and drank a bunch of beer. But we were NOT drunk when people left. I got ready for bed, and asked him what was up with the food run? He got completely defensive started backpedaling, and I said ok, for future reference, it is not OK to assume that our guests are to help us set up for this stuff. And that's not what you told me. I didn't let it go.

He stood up and used the back of his arm to send several bowls flying in my direction. They shattered, went all over. He went into the bedroom. I followed him after a few minutes and told him he needed to clean up the mess. The entire time he was snarling at me and I kept repeating how there was salsa soaking into our floor and he needed to take care of that and all the broken pottery. He got a broom, I was standing in the kitchen, and he comes over and starts screaming at me to help. I was pretty calm, and said no. That was your mess, your violence, you clean it up. He ripped my phone out of my hands, and threw it on the floor so hard it popped out of the lifeproof case and the phone is now bent and shattered.

What is so weird is how calm I was. My H is about the size of an NBA player, and he was standing there just vibrating with rage, fists clench on either side of my head. He finally just turned around and walked out of the room. I packed a few things and left for my aunts without saying anything.

Later that night my mom said he texted her and said we'd gotten into a big fight, he didn't know where I was. She let him know. I haven't gotten an email or anything from him.

I just can't believe it. This doesn't seem like somehting that should be allowed to blow over. We crossed this bridge once several years ago when he threw a laundry basket my way. I explained the abusive household I grew up in, the bullying, the intimidation, and how it was a deal breaker for me. It was never a problem again.

What do I do? I don't even want to see him. I know how this is going to go. He's going to give me a load about his feelings, his needs, what I should have done differently. Fine, I was being a PITA about food, like who does this? Why did you try to make this my problem or anyone else's problem?

How big of a deal is this? I am thinking of leaving, having a nice calm conversation about going our separate ways.

1. H continues to be a tempermental child unable to 'handle' much of anything - whether it be stress, expectations, responsibility...I feel like I'm in yet another relationship where someone else's needs are bigger than mine and something I have to constantly step around.

2. God help me, but depression just looks like a label for his willful laziness.I think it is real to him, and truly a dilemma. I see him making small strides every day...but it's pretty hard to just accept.

3. He's provided for our retirement, but meanwhile shows no symptoms of wanting to work. Everything is on my shoulders. I am fearful it's all going to disappear and then we have nothing for his future medical costs either.

4. I feel like I'm walking on eggshells all the time. It doesn't feel good.

5. There's the kid thing. If I leave, I might as well give up on that, but I don't want to raise a family with someone that is this ill and unproductive.

6. I believe my H is a good man and wants to be a better man. I don't think he wants to be this person. I just don't know if I can hang in there while he continues to call me a miserable human being and other names and blames me for all of his feelings.

Help, what do I do? Can i just not do anything for a time?

If he apologizes and wants to see a counselor is it realistic to believe this won't happen again? I mean, he just agreed to stop threatening to leave me when he was upset. Now this. What is going on here?

[susana4]

Oh Z, that is scary. Hugs.

I'm so glad you got yourself out of there.

I find this line particularly frightening --
"My H is about the size of an NBA player, and he was standing there just vibrating with rage, fists clench on either side of my head. "

Sorry, I'm not entirely sure how to visualise this. Were his hands right next to your head like he was about to hit/punch you?

You need to protect yourself and keep yourself out of any dangerous situation, that's no 1 priority.

Depression, laziness (if he really is depressed I don't think it is willful laziness btw), even threatening to leave - one thing. Getting violent - that's completely another.

If you believe there's a chance of you getting hurt, you cannot go back there.

[Zelda09]

I don't think he would instigate anything when I return today. He's 90% passive, 10% defensive a$$.

The fists - up there in front of him, in line with my ears. He was just shaking, eyes bulging. I couldn't tell if he was meaning for it to be a threatening posture or this was just him in flight/fight stance. At the time he was begging/screaming at me to help him, telling me to go away. It really just made no sense, he was out of his mind. I remember just being very still and looking at his hands and telling him to step away.

I want him to fall all over himself apologizing, tell me it was the beer and the meds, the migraine yesterday, that he understands how serious this is to me. I don't know.

I feel nothing right now. No sadness, anger, despair...just nothing.

[Heart14]

I'm so sorry Z. That sounds very scary. I agree that you need to do what is best for yourself. If it's not a healthy situation for you, no one would fault you for leaving. Physical violence is never okay.

Maybe the lack of emotion is due to shock? It sounds like a lot to process.

[Zelda09]

Is there anyone here who would say this could be a one-time thing and maybe it's not worth walking out of our M over?

We'd been dating about six months when he pushed me off at a dock at a friend's party, 'playful' but definitely aggressive over a jealousy thing. He apologized then that he should have never gone that far, and I'd broke up with him then. There were a couple of years where he'd punch walls, slam things, throw things before he agreed that was also violent and not excusable behavior. And then it just wasn't a problem again. Until now.

[susana4]

The thing is Zelda, it doesn't sound like a one-time thing. It sounds like it happened before (with the pushing off the dock) and then again (punching, slamming, throwing stuff). I'm not an expert in physical violence so I don't really know but it sounds very scary to me, and I do think you need to protect yourself here. And maybe speak to someone with expertise in this area.

There was a site Vanilla posted about, I'll try and find it. In the meantime, maybe you should stay away for a bit and get over the shock and see how you feel.

[Zelda09]

I guess not. I just had hope that he'd changed. He definitely has gotten a lot better at managing his anger and I didn't think I'd ever have to see this from him again.

[susana4]

Has he ever done an anger management course/do you know if he's worked on it in IC?

[Zelda09]

I believe he has worked on it in IC...no to the course.

I don't know if I believe people can change anymore. I don't know if I can change. I don't feel like the old (good) parts of me either anymore.

[susana4]

Oh Z, don't give up hope, people can definitely change, just have a look around these boards to see some of the tremendous changes people are making every day. But bear in mind people have to want to change, and they have to make the small steps to get there.

That's not to say anything about your H, I don't know him and I don't know if he can change. And the violence thing is a huge red flag to me, and I think first and foremost you need to protect yourself.

But you can change, Z, I know it. The good parts are still there. You have been a huge help to me and I'm sure to others on these boards. I think you sound exhausted lately, and maybe you are drained. You mentioned feeling nothing. Maybe you are just too tired and in shock to feel the good parts. But they are there.

((((Z))))

[Zelda09]

Thanks, Susana. It means a lot. You are right about the exhaustion part.

[Vanilla]

Z

As you are aware by now I have been subject to this type of abuse. In my own case it has taken two years to escalate to a dangerous point of my own safety.

Please take this very seriously indeed and stay safe. My understanding of abuse has increased significantly over the last few months until I am finally able to see what is obvious! I wished that I had taken this very seriously from day 1 and intervened on my own behalf.

This is how I understand this issue. I am having a lot of help from VSO, IC, twelve steps groups, family and friends, DBers here, Freedom program and now the Surrey Sanctury. This help is for me because as I set my boundaries and grow so the abuse is worsening as H looses control over V.

The incident you described sounds like abuse to me and is similar to many incidents in my own life. I am miles away and am viewing this through your posts of course and naturally I would advise caution.

Firstly I have learned abuse is not about anger it is about control. When control is enforced through aggression then that is bullying. Controllers are able to navigate and negotiate the world without anger, they reserve aggression for those they have closest with attempts at bullying. Controlled Abuse can be released with minimum alcohol and then bullies can excuse their abuse as being alcohol related. Alcohol does not excuse abuse or bullying. Abuse is the intent but bullying is the action of the controller and is often deliberate. The abuser is choosing to release because it makes them feel better. It raises their importance to themselves. It clams them for a while.

Frankly I have no care that abusers have had bad childhoods that is why they abuse. They are responsible for themselves.

The next issue I addressed was is the abuser suffering from a personality disorder (in which case it is almost impossible to resolve and requires a clinical diagnosis and treatment) or is this an escalation pattern which can be interrupted.

So firstly with some help I indentified what was going on in my sitch as abuse, even if everyone around you is warning you this is still hard to accept. So, yes, I now call this as it is. Hard enough to do, and really I only accepted this when it was so bad that I could do nothing else. There was nowhere to hide or deny it. H has never hit, stuck, pushed or physically attacked me but his aggression is very threatening. He will storm into my room when I am in bed and tower over me, point fingers when I am sitting down and almost spit venom at me. But he has been careful when throwing his tantrums to stay this side of physical contact. That is how I know this is aggression enforced not anger, I am very clear if H ever did physical harm then I will involve law enforcement, there and then.

This behaviour of my H is bullying which comes from control or an attempt to control by H using aggression. The aggression is enhanced as I reset my boundaries. paradoxical?

So if I were Z then the things I may ask are
1. Am I being bullied, controlled etc
2. If some is this part of a cycle of abuse
3. How do I create an intervention and get support for Z
4. What part do I play in this

Z, being ADD, the first thing I did was research it. Hyper focus and emerged myself to understand what need to be done.

I found the following helpful
identifying abuse

I have also signed up for the online Freedom Program and am going to attend the Surrey Samctuary for specialist counselling. As you are aware from my postings, I have H rants recorded on my phone and some of his texts. I have also
Earned that abusers have a brief remorse phase after the abuse which is the most important moment for an intervention. using my recordings and a diary created from my journal I have sufficient evidence to trigger external agency involvement this time. Tough to do if there are no brushes.

The next and most difficult thing for me to swallow was my own role in this. And the next link realisation is straight talk about bullying and my role in it. I thought about whether I should post this to you, and as a wise DBer then you will use this I trust. my warning is more for anyone casually reading, care is needed as some violence and abuse is 'purpose' orientated for money or drug related. So not all bullying has a you played a role in it aspects.

Al Turtle unhelpful calls this the master slave principle which put me off reading it.
There are some very useful thoughts there in the paper though so I considered it informative. I prefer the earlier body of work especially the Freedom program. I like the fact Al splits Control and Bullying as two mechanisms but it my sitch it does not much matter as I experience both.

Paper written for the abused (V health warning)

I apologise for this being such a long post and I am explains that which I understand.

Z if you want to discuss further then I will check in or you can post to my thread.

V

[Zelda09]

I know this is physical abuse, categorically, specifically intimidation.

Just found out he texted my mom a line, "she pushes and pushes and doesn't listen to anything I have to say." I guess the message is clear I better not say anything, certainly not repeat myself unless I want a scene like last night.

I'm wondering if the fact I don't want to go out, do anything, see anyone since he's been home - all I want to do is sleep and cry - I wonder how much self-imposed stress this is, and how much is just frustration and his tactics in a conversation that make me feel like I'm going crazy.

All I know is I've been struggling with a lot of feelings of self-hatred ever since I've stopped unleashing my anger and frustration at him.

I feel like there is really subtle power play here. It sounds paranoid, but I wonder if this whole 3.5 months of being fired, him leaving me, if it wasn't done at some level to break me. He stepped back in SO easily, so effortlessly. A family member complimented me, how gentle I've become, I'm a much softer me...I can't say it feels like an improvement from here.

I know I've seen him sit on the couch and cry about his suicidal feelings, what he was going through last year...I know this was real to him. I just don't know what kind of manipulation he's really capable of.

On the way to a breakfast this weekend I did ask him point blank (gives you an idea) if he blamed me for the way our marriage deteriorated. He said no, obviously I'm struggling with a lot of things and piss poor communication. I am lucky to have you, a lot of people wouldn't have been able to handle me.

The fact that I feel so low and so confused, and so far off from that confident happy person I used to be...I don't want to blame him and say there has been emotional abuse here, but I feel like something has been going on besides what happened last night. Just can't wrap my head around it.

[Vanilla]

Apologies my editing ran out of time.

Paragraph should read
I have also learned that....

Tough to do if there are no bruises. (Not brushes!)

Al Turtle unhefully calls

Apologies for not finishing editing.

V

[Zelda09]

V, if we use this master/slave paradigm, my H is a very passive master. I am a day to day master. We are definitely not friends. Even though I have been trying, the "I don't knows" and 'power in passivity' from him is ridiculous.

I just feel so over it. I don't know how I can expect to build a happy life with someone who is so toxic. None of my other relationships went this way. I remember two very good 'friend-friend' relationships that were long term but didn't progress. It took someone like my H to really get to me (apparently in the bad sense as well as the good.)

[Zelda09]

This stood out to me:

"Over the weekend they had visited her parents in Butte, Montana. I asked them to look at the power in that family. “Dad is the powerful one,” she said. “He runs three businesses in town, with about 60 employees. People really respect and I suppose fear him. He certainly uses a lot of Master Talk!” “Ok. How about mom?” I asked. “Mom is not very healthy. She has spent quite a bit of time with her illnesses and she lives very very quietly at home.”“Ok. Now, who runs the family?” I asked. Long pause. “Um. She does. Everyone caters to her. Everyone watches out for her. Every tries to make her life easier. I always thought Dad was the big power, but I guess Mom is more powerful. She’s the Passive-Master.”

[Vanilla]

I know this is physical abuse, categorically, specifically intimidation.

Just found out he texted my mom a line, "she pushes and pushes and doesn't listen to anything I have to say." I guess the message is clear I better not say anything, certainly not repeat myself unless I want a scene like last night.

V this is typical abuse cycle. The abuser in the 'remorse' stage will attempt to shift the blame. you made me do this and also to regain control. It also is an attempt to cover up or minimise. In my last abuse I blew the doors off and now none of this is hidden. I wished that I had done this much sooner. Abusers change the rules and there is no way you can comply.

I'm wondering if the fact I don't want to go out, do anything, see anyone since he's been home - all I want to do is sleep and cry - I wonder how much self-imposed stress this is, and how much is just frustration and his tactics in a conversation that make me feel like I'm going crazy.

Crazy making and it is shock. An abuse escalation will leave you feeling that somewhere deep down actually may be perhaps there is some truth there. You are describing almost exactly how I felt. Did you read and are quoting from my journal perhaps?

All I know is I've been struggling with a lot of feelings of self-hatred ever since I've stopped unleashing my anger and frustration at him.

As the screaming banshee went away, this was also my experience too. So that part of me I called Plain Vanilla came forward, I bought Hs description of me as a pitiful creature. Paradoxically my understanding and experience is that this can be a phase of great growth as I learned to redirect this in more positive ways. It has taken a great deal of energy but I never want this in my life again. This will be a one off, so change must occur.

I feel like there is really subtle power play here. It sounds paranoid, but I wonder if this whole 3.5 months of being fired, him leaving me, if it wasn't done at some level to break me. He stepped back in SO easily, so effortlessly. A family member complimented me, how gentle I've become, I'm a much softer me...I can't say it feels like an improvement from here.

Z you may never know and frankly this does not matter much. Those improvements are for you Z, no one else. It took me nearly 6 months before I understood that the 'softness' actually left me better place, less upset and sad, and detachment was the biggest gain in all of this. More full of love for myself, unloading my backpack of negativity.

I know I've seen him sit on the couch and cry about his suicidal feelings, what he was going through last year...I know this was real to him. I just don't know what kind of manipulation he's really capable of.

Yes, real pity party stuff! Here H have the poor me T shirt. Really H your issues, I can only provide the supportive environment for you, the rest is up to you. Get on with it.

On the way to a breakfast this weekend I did ask him point blank (gives you an idea) if he blamed me for the way our marriage deteriorated. He said no, obviously I'm struggling with a lot of things and piss poor communication. I am lucky to have you, a lot of people wouldn't have been able to handle me.

Well, he can not really say anything else! Z, it is to keep you on the hook.

The fact that I feel so low and so confused, and so far off from that confident happy person I used to be...I don't want to blame him and say there has been emotional abuse here, but I feel like something has been going on besides what happened last night. Just can't wrap my head around it.

I came to know that blame will be unhelpful. This must be confusing, it is the worst behaviour and will leave you confused. take time out to think about it.

Z comes first. Be safe. If you need to get space do so as much as you need. Decide on your boundary. If it is helpful here is mine. "I feel sad and hurt H when I think that you are abusing me. I will no longer be verbally or emotionally abused and if this happens again I will leave to consider my choices'. It did so I left for 10 days. Then 'if I am abused again I will involve the authorities' it did, so I have and I have left for 10 days. Now ' if I am abused again, I will get a restraining order'

I have not asked H to do anything other than stop abusive behaviour. There is no excusing, colluding, denying or demands. just I want this stopped today.

Z, please get help with this. Ceasing denial is a big step, it really is Important and the descriptions you are giving at their core match almost word for word how I have felt.
I am projecting every ounce of strength and love I can. No matter how hard this is, it need never be like this again.

[Vanilla]

I just feel so over it. I don't know how I can expect to build a happy life with someone who is so toxic. None of my other relationships went this way. I remember two very good 'friend-friend' relationships that were long term but didn't progress. It took someone like my H to really get to me (apparently in the bad sense as well as the good.)

I am just a classic avoider. Denial was my middle name. All of my previous Rs have been friend-friend ones too. But clearly there is something to learn from each R. Whatever we do. I know much of my oomph has gone and I am working to get it back.

You say toxic, but that Z is a judgement of H. Who knows where they get their chit from. It is theirs to own, suggest you stay away from condemning H but seek to enforce your boundary. Let H clear the pooh from his own sandbox. It is behaviour which is most concerning especially as there appears to be blame shifting. Blame shifting is classic denial and not wanting to handle things.

V

[Zelda09]

V - you are right on so many levels. Yes, I am the assertive strong one in our R, and I was emotionally flooding all over the place for years.

But, I have ceased criticizing. I have ceased having expectations or pushing him. Communication has appeared to improve. The truth is I am feeling bullied, emotionally, physically, psychologically.

I feel like I am in denial. There was a period, here on this forum, where I wrote that I felt like the fog was lifting, and I was happy and free. Now the fog is back and I want to tell myself why everything is normal and ok.

The truth is I am scared to be without him and alone again. That is the stupid ugly truth. That I would rather feel this heartache week in and week out from some source I can't pinpoint than be an individual alone in the world again, without the idea of marriage or family 'secured.'

I thank you for the energy you are putting into your responses. I am flat out panicking at the choices I feel I am looking at in what to do here - none of them seem good.

[Vanilla]

V - you are right on so many levels. Yes, I am the assertive strong one in our R, and I was emotionally flooding all over the place for years.

Now that you have stopped flooding with your emotions then I think two things are happening (at least this is what happened for me):
firstly you are detaching rather than reacting: in your earlier post you describe asking H (calmly) to remove his fists,
secondly you are losing denial and H is no longer able to say 'see Z your reaction made me so this.is Z responsibility, if you had done X instead....'. You stopped the cycle of blame by retaining balance during an incident. You kept calm and your reaction is inacapble of being a 'cause'.

This has given you insight and clarity as if you were a third party observing.


But, I have ceased criticizing. I have ceased having expectations or pushing him. Communication has appeared to improve. The truth is I am feeling bullied, emotionally, physically, psychologically.

Actually I believe this feeling of being bullied etc was always there.

it iwas that your own flooding masked the bullying etc and also enabled it through denial and reaction. This is no longer the case.

Your flooding added an extra emotional layer, I think the fact that you experienced anger first (The physiologically more dominant 'lizard' or lambic emotion) was covering up your sadness (the longer term parasympathetic emotion).

Now I believe as in my sitch the sadness is exposed: it has always been there but by reacting I said to myself this sadness is of my own making, if I change my anger the sadness will go away. It can not do that because the sadness is a result of the self being negated in the R, not because of the anger (screaming banshee) which has arisen during flooding. Hope that makes sense.

I feel like I am in denial. There was a period, here on this forum, where I wrote that I felt like the fog was lifting, and I was happy and free. Now the fog is back and I want to tell myself why everything is normal and ok.

Z, from reading your posts then I sense that the issue is that you are no longer in denial. You may want to be as that is more comfortable. Actually you appear to be in full colour acceptance, there is no going back to denial. The fog is sadness and it will shift as you manage your expectations from your R.

The truth is I am scared to be without him and alone again. That is the stupid ugly truth.

I understand this, and this is only one of the choices. There is a journey ahead of you Z. A journey to find Z.[ in this type of relationship then there have always been great alone periods, the cycle of abuse will indicate those periods of isolation./color]

That I would rather feel this heartache week in and week out from some source I can't pinpoint than be an individual alone in the world again, without the idea of marriage or family 'secured.'

[color:#6600CC]In truth we are all alone throughout life but we need not be lonely. Abuse isolates and in my case has made me lonely even though I am supposedly in an R. I have decided that I am better off being free of abuse, I am lonely in this R anyway so actually I prefer to be alone instead and free of abuse. H has attempted to isolate me anyway (without success).

This feels to me like trying to 'love' the abuse out of the abuser.

I thank you for the energy you are putting into your responses.

I am sharing as much as I can with someone I respect very much.

I am flat out panicking at the choices I feel I am looking at in what to do here - none of them seem good.

z, probably the choices are not that glowing and I feel the same. You are younger with a life and children ahead of you. This is a cross road in your life, one of many. Z, you can be free of a life of abuse, whether with your H or in another R or on your own as a single mom. It is the loss of our dreams that hurts the most.

V

[Vanilla]

Apologies another problem withosting. Z this doesn't track very well so for ease am reposting.

I understand this, and this is only one of the choices. There is a journey ahead of you Z. A journey to find Z. In this type of relationship then there have always been great alone periods, the cycle of abuse will indicate those periods of isolation.

That I would rather feel this heartache week in and week out from some source I can't pinpoint than be an individual alone in the world again, without the idea of marriage or family 'secured.'

In truth we are all alone throughout life but we need not be lonely. Abuse isolates and in my case has made me lonely even though I am supposedly in an R. I have decided that I am better off being free of abuse, I am lonely in this R anyway so actually I prefer to be alone instead and free of abuse. H has attempted to isolate me anyway (without success).

This feels to me like trying to 'love' the abuse out of the abuser.

V

[susana4]

Some really great insights here. Z, whatever lies ahead, please take care of yourself first and foremost. We are rooting for you!

[Zelda09]

I got home half an hour ago.
Greeted by cold silence. Very reminiscent of the period before we separated.
So I took a shower and when I got out, asked, "when would you like to discuss this?"

"another day."

"Would I be able to have the bedroom tonight?"

And then he exited to the living room.

So, the fight or flight arousal is dying down now.
I guess this means he has nothing he wishes to apologize for. Fine.

[susana4]

Oh Z. ((()))

I am glad you are safe right now, at least.

I know that an apology might be part of a cycle of abuse, but the fact he's not apologising? That's concerning.

Have you thought of how you'll handle it if/when he apologises?

[BFloat]

I read some of your posts when it was on newcomers. I recall that it caught my attention because he was taking a lot of oxy at that time. But then it seemed like it became a non issue because it wasn't really mentioned anymore.

Where is he with this? Is he still on oxy? This is just my observation and you can take it or leave it...

But it seems like he is manipulating you. The I'm sorrys... The I think I have a mental illness.. It seems like he has been saying all sorts of things to appease (not quite the word I'm looking for but it'll do) you.. To keep you in the game.. To make himself the victim.. And when that doesn't work, the it's.. You always make me feel this.. You are the horrible person..

I am not speaking from personal experience in my relationship but as a pattern in pts I have cared for.

Are you actually in piecing? Or are you trying to patch together your marriage and he is going along to keep you "happy"? I don't know the answer. I'm just asking a hard question.

[Vanilla]

Z

What has happened is that you have broken the cycle in the abuse phase.

I suspect H will find that difficult and uncomfortable and not know what to do with the change. The cycle is interrupted at this point.

Hence the silent treatment, cold shoulder and possibly "looks could kill". After my H went on his golf weekend he came back and immediately the criticisms and abuse started about not cleaning the fridge and finishing the ironing. I decided no more abuse, said so, then texted, went to the police etc. In the interim H started with the silent treatment and ironed only his own clothes, there was fridge door banging etc. I left and did not go back. I am still getting the silent treatment, next phase will be concern etc, H will want to return to the cycle. Counsellors say keep up the boundary and no rewarding of what should be ordinary day to day behaviour in a spouse. Keeping the cycle broken is key to stopping the abuse.

If you continue to keep "cool" and detached (no flooding), you may be accused of being disinterested in Hs pain. I add warmth to my voice and project love from my tummy and keep the questions open. Be clear in your boundary too, friend Al insists on friend style communications. The more detached I was the easier it became. My aim is to stop the abuse, H is responsible for sorting his own head out and playing in his own sandbox. How a 59 year old man grows up is his choice, he should no longer blame his parents etc. H has been his own appropriate adult since he was 19 and left home, that is 40 years of parenting himself. Sadly Al seems to feel my position in the master talk is the most difficult to lead from and recover. luckily I have been a friend position in most of my Rs and that is uncomfortable for me too. As a passive master, you can be more proactive.

Keep posting Z, And I will share as much as I can.

V

[Vanilla]

Of course should have said, as your H is a passive master!

V

[Zelda09]

Float, nice hard questions there.

The oxy became a non-concern when we hashed it out with our MC and she agreed that 5mg as prescribed, and has been monitored with pain management was probably not in the realm of concern. I agreed to let it go for a few months and stop asking him every day how much he'd taken.

My H has never wanted this M, in any active way, but then again he's never wanted anything. This isn't me mind reading, this is what he tells me. (Well, he hasn't said as much about the marriage, only in anger.) So, I think the answer is yes - he thrives in a very co-dependent way on 'making me happy' as long as there is not expectations or responsibility involved on his part. He likes to bake and feed me, and encourage me to keep working hard, brag to everyone how proud of me he is. And for a week or two, answered my call for help with the housework.

I feel manipulated. I feel bullied. I feel crazy that I can't say something directly - not in a tempermental way either, without him coming back with, "I hope you're not trying to do this or that by saying xyz..." So I STFU like a good little girl and hate myself for it.

There's been a couple of times now he's called me passive aggressive which is the most confusing thing because I am just making statements at that point. He twists and turns and splits hairs until I think I'm going to go nuts.

I am trying to get up the courage to ask for a D. This has been like this for years, and he's done a great job of keeping me in the game, and I'm glad I had the chance to look at me and my contributions in all of this. But I am miserable. The violence the other night, it's just too much.

I am trying to imagine life without our dog, and if he's going to try for the house. The dog is the hardest. I laid in bed last night trying to imagine how I'd feel when he starts dating again - or how I'd feel trying to date again and hope fading for my ovaries. You know what's not awesome? A mid-30s woman desperately seeking to mate. It's funny, ever since I was 12 I imagined myself happy and alone. It wasn't util I met him that picture changed for me. In the middle of our fights he'll sometimes say, Z, I'm not your dad. But what does it matter if I end up feeling the same way I did years ago? At least my father was a provider.

I am amazed I held down my job, the big stressful one, and still found the energy to show up for the hobby-jobs during those 3 months he left me. I feel weak, depressed, and crazy now and can't imagine how I am going to hold it together for another round if I choose to start the D proceedings.

I feel ready to make this decision because I am out of hope that he will ever step out of man-chid-victim mindset. I believe he wants to, I believe he's a good person, but life is short. I'm going to see if our MC can talk with me today.

[Zelda09]

Mc recommended that the roommate is present tonight when we talk and he's sgreed. He heard what happened.

Except H has gone out. That's inconvenient, I'd got my courage up.

Was going to tell him that I do not wish to live in a hostile environment; there is no excuse for what he did. And see how he wishes to handle. If he equivocates or tries to shift the blame or do much of anything other than sign up for some serious intensive anger management/violence coursework - I will tell him I wish to go our separate ways.

I am losing courage and becoming sentimental - it's like feeling blood drain out of me. It feels like part of a grand design to keep silly people like me making more excuses.

My roommate just looked at me asking when the last time was going to be the last and how many chances I wNted to give him on these points. Susana was right, I can't claim it was a one time thing, it's an escalation of tactics.

This seems to be a very anti dB attitude. I know he has thoughts and feeling that make sense to him. I just don't want to continue to be run down by them. Even roomie rolled his eyes at the shouting he heard - what was all that about how you don't care about him? Guy just loves to be the victim even as he's destroying your things.

[susana4]

Z, I don't think it's an anti DB attitude, DBing isn't about takinh abuse and in the case of abuse I think we would all agree to protect yourself first!


I think having the roommate there is a good plan if you are afraid for your safety at all. It will hold him accountable for what he does as well.

If you decide you don't want to D I think you need to set a strong boundary like V said. And I know you can't force anyone to do anything but it does sound like an anger management course would be helpful!

Good luck in talking to him. Will you be able to speak later or will you have to wait for another night? What do you plan to do since he was out?

[Zelda09]

I am enjoying my dog. I'll stay up a bit, got to bed in a couple hours if need be and aim for tomorrow.

[Vanilla]

Z

H is lucky that you have no recording of his abuse! I agree with MC, and the other thing that I have learned is that most abusers have up to 50 incidents before the target says STOP and takes action.

I said to myself V it is not like that for you surely? From my journal alone I count over 200 incidents, as many as 3 in one day in a 15 month period. Only a couple of dozen at the highest level. So by having no boundaries or weak boundaries at best I had a role in encouraging H in his abuse. The number of the abuses from my journal notes dropped by 75% as soon as I started detatching and I began to set boundaries (Oct 2014, when I joined the board here) and from then they were reducing. Major episodes reduced to approximately one per month and were documented by V in her journal. V enforced boundaries each time a major episode happened. Every time the abuse repeated the consequences were carried out, next time if there ever is one I will have a police injunction.

Frankly I am expecting H to avoid you as much as possible until he believes life is calmer. He has realised by now you are taking this seriously and will want to play it as less than it is. Learn from the escalation and inactivity of V in Vs sitch: I urge you to take action to protect yourself Z. Stay strong for your own sake. Remember abuse is about control and expectation and is applied with aggression (not anger), H manages the rest of his world without this behaviour.

Peace and calm today
V

[Zelda09]

H went out and partied for st pattys last night. Came home late snoring on the couch. When I left I noticed my house key missing tho I think it is almost impossible he would have taken it considering purse has been on me or near me for limited time we've been in house together. But I woke him up and asked him anyway. There was a brief exchange where he said how'd you lose your key and I answered, it's not on the chain. "That wasn't the question." I ignored that. But it is typical of him, the controlling way he tries to order me through conversations. I just told him I was borrowing his to make a copy. He looked theatrically tired and what not like he's just recovered from a hard day of battle. I left without saying goodbye.

I am growing angry at how he keeps avoiding me, this.

Is it appropriate to tell our friends and family what is going on? I don't believe in drawing others into drama but I don't believe this should be silent between us, either.
We will see tonight how he handles.

[Zelda09]

Just noticed he ran up a nice big tab on my debit card (I loaned it to him for groceries that he couldn't get) out partying last night. That takes the cake. I see no recovery possible, the disrespect is unfathomable to me.

Wish me luck tonight as I deliver the news, we are going to have the divorce he wanted.

[Vanilla]

Z

If you straightforwardly want a D then confrontation is unnecessary, just ask him to leave, you can do that by phone call and say you can talk another time. This reduces the risks to Z. If it is the abuse you need stopped then a personal meeting may be needed to state your boundaries on abuse.

Please work from a place of calmness. Mentioning D other than as a consequence is problematic. I can give you my experience of why this time V made progress in this post.

H response to your stating your boundary may be incomprehensible spew. record any rant and keep the knowledge to yourself. practice recording with your phone, iPad or laptop until you get the technique, if necessary get an app.

STFU until H has finished his spew keep to yourself that you are recording H. Phone needs to be fully charged. Forward the recording to your own mailbox immediately.

Be cool, composed and determined. Ensure there is immediate help to hand and if anything physical, get the hell away. Be safe, above all, be safe YOU are too precious. Leave every incident before the last one from your boundary, you will distract and weaken your case. Also be prepared to see H crumble and if so please do not sooth him or that will reward him. Just walk away.

I know you are angry and sad. When dealing with H become Z the determined, think of one of your heroines. You are on a mission, to get this abuse under control. Please have the cool, calm and collected tool to hand.

The taking of your key is both 'gas lighting,' and 'control' my H has done that to me with my car key. I keep spares hidden elsewhere now too. Using your debit card is the type of action some 13 year olds would do, it's spiteful and you want repaying.

Z, I shall be around and checking in. H may keep avoiding you if he feels guilty.

V

[Vanilla]

Z

Just wanted to add a boundary is different to an ultimatum. H is likely to dig his heels, tantrum, get defensive If you present him with an ultimatum.

If it were me then either a statement ' I have decided you need to leave and I shall be filing for divorce' or a boundary ' I am angry and sad that I believe you are abusing and intimidating me, in the last few days you have threatened me physically, .......and used my debit card to pay for your St Patrick night out. I have decided that if this happens again then D is my only option' or words to that effect. Sandi or Wonka or Cadet may use better words.


If you want to rehearse then please post.

V

[Zelda09]

Ok, vets - help with a script please (thanks V for the suggestion.

H, I met with our MC last night and she recommended that C should be here for this discussion, and he has agreed, and heard the thing I am about to describe. You used your arm to send two bowls flying at my body. When I told you to clean up your mess, you followed me into the kitchen and wrestled my phone out of my hands, destroyed it, and stood over me with your fists on either side of my head screaming. I walked out the door and before I was out of the way, you slammed it into me.

I have been feeling emotionally bullied by you for weeks, and this physical intimidation is too much. I feel safe only as long as I do not say something that may upset you or that you cannot handle.

This is painful to me and I will not live in a house with violence. I told you that years ago. Though you are entitled to your feelings about the things I said about the errand and party, there is no justification for this violent behavior. I am upset that you have chosen not to speak with me about it for three days, and then used my personal account to fund your night out last night. I feel incredibly disrespected.

I have explored filing a police report detailing the damage you did on Sunday night, and if anything like this is to ever happen again, I will not hesitate to call the police.

I would like to know if you are interested in continuing this marriage. Here is the information I have found on a course for domestic violence and anger management that meets every week.

(if there is equivocation, protest, blaming...I'm asking for the D. My MC told me last night - change is only possible in those that want to change. Boundaries are great if I am forced to be in this situation, which I am not. I am getting nothing out of this but grief.) then:

H, I do love you and want to see you do well. I am hoping we can agree to an uncontested D and begin the process of dividing our lives. I would like you to move out in the meantime, beginning tonight or tomorrow, as I no longer feel comfortable in the house with you.

[Vanilla]

Z

You might need to start with

I need 5/10 minutes of your time and please let me finish what I have to say without interruption. If I am interrupted then I will walk away until another time.

V

[Zelda09]

Ok.

You know what stinks? Friends/family being like, eh, you had a fight. Do you want to throw it all away on a fight?

And I feel myself starting to lose my resolve. Like V said earlier, one of them is like, "don't tell him what his option to fix it is. Lay the hurt out there, lay the boundary, and let him decide what he's going to do about it." And all I see happening out of that is more of the same, another few months of it.

[Vanilla]

Ok, vets - help with a script please (thanks V for the suggestion.

H, I met with our MC last night and she recommended that C should be here for this discussion, and he has agreed, and heard the thing I am about to describe. On Sunday evening you used your arm to send two bowls flying at my body. When I asked you to clean up the messyou followed me into the kitchen and wrestled my phone out of my hands, destroyed it, and stood with your fists on either side of my head screaming. Then as Iwalked through the door and before I was out of the way, you slammed it into me.

I have been angry and sad that I believe I have been emotionally bullied by you for weeks, and I find this physical intimidation is too much. I feel safe only as long as I do not say something that may upset you or that you cannot handle.

This is painful to me and I will not live in a house with violence. I told you that years ago.Though you are entitled to your feelings about the things I said about the errand and party, There is no justification for this violent behavior. I am also upset that you have chosen not to speak with me about it for three days, and then used my personal account to fund your night out last night. I am feeling incredibly disrespected.

I have explored filing a police report detailing the intimidation and damage on Sunday night, and if anything like this is to ever happen again, I will not hesitate to call the police.

I would like to know if you are interested in continuing this marriage If you wish us to resolve this then I have found on a course for domestic violence and anger management that meets every week and I am prepared to work with you to do so.

(if there is equivocation, protest, blaming...I'm asking for the D. My MC told me last night - change is only possible in those that want to change. Boundaries are great if I am forced to be in this situation, which I am not. I am getting nothing out of this but grief.) then:

H, I do love you and want to see you do well. It is clear to me that this has concluded and I am confident that we can agree to an uncontested D and begin the process of dividing our lives. I would like you to move out in the meantime, beginning tonight or tomorrow, as I no longer feel comfortable in the house with you.

This is other than one isolated fight Z.

OK?

V

[susana4]

Good luck Z. Thinking of you.

(((((((((()))))))))))

[Cadet]

Well I have not really read your sich but a boundary is something that you control, like if you continue to hit me I will walk away, file for divorce, or call the police.

I can say that until he is ready to be all in, the odds are he will bust through or break any other boundaries.

So I would agree with what V wrote to you as
I do not think you should tolerate domestic abuse.

Please protect yourself with what ever means possible that you have.

[Wonka]

Z,

I am going to give you the same exact advice I gave to V last week. I am concerned for your well-being and you do need to be completely safe from H. Not sure if this is the first incident or not. No matter.

Can you go to the nearest women's shelter and stay for a while? In the States, a woman is allowed to stay in a shelter for at least 30 days. Not sure about the UK.

I do think you need to remove yourself from this place to get some distance between you two and gain some perspective of your situation from the outside.

It's kinda hard fighting a raging fire if you are standing in the dab smack middle of it.

[Vanilla]

Wonka

You will need police involvement to be in a shelter here. A recommendation from them is needed unless a charity bed can be found, priority is given to women with children, normally the police remove the offender. Ideally in the UK you do not leave your home as the abused party.

The police can also prosecute without agreement, and in my case have seen H and followed that up with a warning letter. Verbal abuse is a criminal offence in the UK, but hard to prove. I believe both Z and I have proof of one kind or another. If he abuses again they will remove my H from the big house and support my application for a restraining order. In the UK too, we can apply for restitution in the family court if there is abuse and this will be offset against any D settlement.

I said more or less that which Z is saying and left. Z has a flat mate.


Sadly it is very different in the UK although VSO was very helpful indeed but I also needed a police recommendation.

V

[Zelda09]

Guys, I don't think I am un-safe. I am unhappy. And I don't like the violence, but he has never harmed me or wounded me. I don't believe he will, either. I don't want to go to a shelter, that would add more stress and inconvenience than anything.

Thanks for your thoughts, keep them coming please!

[Zelda09]

So, I think I have decided to lay it out, most in the edited draft that V had revised. I will simply pause before I offer a solution and see what he says. My roommate will be there and I am sure I will be safe.

H has a history of intimidation with me, yes. Verbal name calling came to a halt years ago, now it is more psychologically condescending stuff. I see it for what it is, his attempt to maintain control over me. He will say many things about how he doesn't see himself as equal, or as smart, capable, etc...as earlier post in this thread - so he lashes out to feel he gains ground.

I do not have to have an agenda to go into this conversation strong. I can simply tell him how I am.

Cadet, your post worries me - help me explore this - that he will continue to break through boundaries until he is all in...do you mean in a way that he will sabotage this waiting for me to break it? Like if he crosses enough lines he'll get his D?

[Calibri]

Zelda,

I'm sorry to read the recent updates in your thread -- I had hopes for your sitch. However, I am proud (if that's the right word to use) that you are traveled your path and know the way you want to take.

I agree with Wonka, is there a place where you can go and gain perspective? Or at least go, once you announce your desires for a Divorce? I think space would be beneficial for you both after you talk to your H. I couldn't imagine having to have lived with my H with his spew and after he announced his intentions for us to D.

I'm not trying to discount your feelings at all, but I do advise you to proceed with caution, especially with a history of violence and with suspected mental illness. What I've learned from my own mentally ill father and my (suspected) mentally ill h, you never know what will be the thing that sends them over the edge. Never in a million years did I think my H would do the things that he's done, but something in him snapped and he became a person that we don't recognize. While you aren't in fear and don't feel unsafe, never discount that a situation has the potential to become unsafe or escalate further than it already has. Or that you could ever imagine it could be.

Just my words.

Good luck.

[Cadet]

I do not have to have an agenda to go into this coSo, I think I have decided to lay it out, most in the edited draft that V had revised. I will simply pause before I offer a solution and see what he says. My roommate will be there and I am sure I will be safe.

H has a history of intimidation with me, yes. Verbal name calling came to a halt years ago, now it is more psychologically condescending stuff. I see it for what it is, his attempt to maintain control over me. He will say many things about how he doesn't see himself as equal, or as smart, capable, etc...as earlier post in this thread - so he lashes out to feel he gains ground. nversation strong. I can simply tell him how I am.

Cadet, your post worries me - help me explore this - that he will continue to break through boundaries until he is all in...do you mean in a way that he will sabotage this waiting for me to break it? Like if he crosses enough lines he'll get his D?

What is the purpose of this letter?

I guess my point is if you are worried about all these crossings of boundaries, you are not piecing, he is still in crisis and the best thing for YOU is to cycle back to detachment.

Protecting yourself, you are cycling with him reeling you in and then abusing you, that is not a good cycle.

Yes I think he will continue to break boundaries, how specifically I can not predict but I think that is part of the abuse.

[Zelda09]

Well, that went as well as possible. Too tired to post. But ok and done.

[Vanilla]

Waited to hear.

V

[susana4]

Hugs to you Z. Get some rest.

[Zelda09]

I had the three of us in the living room and pretty much laid it out as written in earlier draft. As expected, h tried to split hairs:

"I don't really agree with the facts as you have laid them out. I don't think I tgrew those at you. Did it hit you? Can I get an opinion from roommate on this? Seems like a stretch."

We were sitting in same place it basically happened. Roommate (50 yo man) says, you want to know what I think about violence against women? I think I can use any part of my body to send an object any which way I choose."

H said, ok, I just think that term is a little general. And so it went on. I just held firm to, "H this is violence and it is inexcusable. I will not live like this and I want to know what you intend to do about it."

"Isn't the question what you intend to do about it?"

"I told you I will call the police if it happens again. But I want to know if this is a boundary you will respect and if you're interested in taking responsibility and addressing this for our m. I found a course that meets..."

"I'll take all the responsibility. But I can't just change bc I take a course, this r has never been good on respecting boundaries anyway. "

"So if I am hearing you right, you are not interested in changing or preventing this. Is it agreeable to you that we go our separate ways?"

"I think that's what we have to do."

"Alright. I love you, want you to do well, and I'd like a cooperative divorce. We can meet for lunch and discuss what we want out if it, but in the meantime I would like you to leave. This feels hostile."

"Ok."

And we went back and forth about when. I told him I wasn't comfortable with this happening in his timeline bc it would take forever. He said something about his lack of ability. I offered to call his friends and find him a couch bc I had the ability do that. He declined and said he could manage his own affairs. I took the day off work bc I nonlinger trust him to be home alone, God knows what else he feels entitled to. He just said he would give me an update today about his timeline and plans. I feel safe enough, I don't think he will try anything but more hair splitting and posturing today.

I feel really ok about this. At peace. I do love him, we had some happy times, and he did work on things a bit when he came home. But under all that is a guy who just isn't interested in trying to be here, pulling his weight, or taking responsibility for himself. His parting comment to me yesterday, "I hope those sandwiches were worth it to you." In another time that would have launched me into trying to explain/discuss/get into it, but I just nodded and left the room.

[susana4]

Z, that must have been so hard. Good for you for being so strong. I hope you stay in this feeling of peace.

[Zelda09]

Thanks. Peace hasn't left today.

I think it left my H. I know he called our MC. I shouldn't be checking the phone bill, his business is none of mine anymore.

He approached me with a check for his spending the other night. I thanked him and asked if he would have even mentioned it if I hadn't called him on it. He sulked, and said, "it doesn't matter now, does it?"

"Nope."

This was the way he wormed his way back into my heart last time we had a big blow up years ago, and I fell for it then, and we started talking. I think it was something like, of course it matters, H! And him playing with me (it's funny, I remember even knowing it at the time and going along with it), no why does it, basically statements designed to get me to protest and work my way into convincing both of us our relationship was bigger than whatever happened.

I went over to your thread, Susana. Loved Starsky quoting about how marriage itself is not unconditional. We spend a lot of time on this board accepting and removing critical behaviors, but sometimes there are in fact limits.

He told me he does not have plans yet to move out. Surprise.

Actually, here's a surprise - all of his PTSD/I can't drive stuff has miraculously disappeared and he is on his 2nd outing today. I'm happy for him.

But what is really bugging me is the utter lack of remorse. I know that's a conversation he wants to have, about us, or he wouldn't say that stuff and wander around looking like he was going to cry. But he'd rather wait for me to come to him looking to apologize and fix it. If past memory serves me correctly, we'd have to split hair for about two hours before he could admit to any fault. NOT this time.

I think I'm still in shock. It might not be peace. And I'm definitely in the wrong forum now.

I mean honestly. If he comes back from the MC call or appointment...and admits to everything he should have and falls all over himself apologizing...I'm left with a man that didn't have the moral compass to do that in the first place, immediately that night. Or the day after, or ever. I left with a guy who is an iceberg to himself and will never choose responsibility. And it would be the same abuse cycle, tactics changing and shifting, maybe long stretches, but still the same pins and needles feeling I've had for six years. It would be a relief to not be in a R feeling like I'm with someone who got dragged into it.

Sorry, meandering thread here. Thinking out loud.

[Vanilla]

Z

Now let him think and give him time to adjust. The offer is on the table still?

How are you feeling this evening?

V

[Zelda09]

V, you hit the nail on the head - idk if the offer is on the table, I think I may be an idiot to leave it there though.

Feeling numb.

[Vanilla]

Z

It is a huge thing to lay this out.

You have turned a corner in your life, hats off to you. This will influence how you feel about Z for the future. With , without him, many ghosts have gone.

It can feel unfamiliar but the new Z is on a better path.

V

[Zelda09]

Part of the problem here is I don't know my mind on this well enough:

I approached H before going out tonight. Said you'd have an update for me in your plans.

"well, I have a place for tomorrow night. I am not sure after that."

"So if you cannot find one, your plan is to come back here?"

"i'm going to do the best I can out there in that big world."

i'm sure you will, and I understand. But I am uncomfortable with the idea that you were going to come back in and out as you please send as you need to."

"you're sure not comfortable with a lot."

"no I definitely am not."

And I left.

So he is going to continue to roost/marinate? I don't think he has any intention of making this right but I just can't believe that he would continue this situation past this point if he doesn't. Someone hit me with a 2x4?

[Vanilla]

It is early days.

I understand it can take up to 4 days and for some as many as 7 days for reality to bite after an intervention.

Denial phase for H, I feel. Then anger but that quickly turns inwards if they are ashamed then down days of thinking. My VSO said a three week cycle, if they react quickly there has been little effect, they still feel in control and nothing will change. He is seeing MC that is good.

I have just gone pitch black on my H and will do so for two weeks if I can, then only business style stuff and then a little warmer. I made a similar offer on the abuse, if you want the change route H then there are resources, if not then I am not being abused, if you try it then I will get a restraint order.

I believe this can be one make or break for your H. There could be more or a series if you stand firm.

Personally I would be worried by an instant apology or sweet talk.

V

[Zelda09]

Thanks, V.

[Zelda09]

This is fun - h has gone to a family member to rent a room claiming things were going well, he just doesn't know what happened.

He was watching tv and giggling when I left.

What a chit.

[Zelda09]

H came home. I asked him when he was leaving today and he ignored me the first three times before saying, apparently not soon enough.

Then he asked me if it would be alright for our D if he just took his furniture and that was it. Perfect.

I asked him when he would like to sort through file cabinets and storage and he said it's your house, you don't want me here, you take care of it. I replied, it's not fair to put all that work on me. These were your decisions, your choices, your stuff, you need to take care of it.

He said something about me changing the subject when I said, 'no, you are correct, I have no desire to have you here when you do not wish to treat me well or be in this relationship."

What is going on here???
How can he possible act like the victim...oh. Wait.

[Cadet]

Not the first time I have heard of them leaving all their stuff behind.
It gives them an excuse to contact you again in the future.

[Zelda09]

Look, I am struggling with so many things. My H is a good man or I wouldn't have married him. There were plenty of times in the last two months he tried really hard to be there for me. I am experiencing a lot of heart break at the moment over the what-could-have-been and happy memories.

I know what I did is right. I know that there was an opportunity today, once maybe more. He got the mail, and I asked him when he was leaving, but he was frantically trying to open up an amazon package. I repeated in three times and he wouldn't answer and then handed me the book he'd picked up for me and asked, do you remember you wanted this?

I know that I could have told him, Yes, H, I DO want you here, but you need to blah blah blah...

My family says I haven't seen the last of him. I don't know. Other than when we were dating, he never made moves toward me, I always was Ms. Fix it. I might consider things if he finds the strength to bend over backwards and fix it this time. I don't know.

It still irks me that he tells me he called my cousin and apologized to her for breaking the bowl he made, but hasn't apologized to me for any of this. He did tell me he would pay for the cost of my phone that he broke. But that's not an apology. Wiping his eyes as we walked around talking about how to divide up the house wasn't remorse; it was sadness over the current situation or perhaps self-pity, but not regret for his actions. I did feel sorry for him, but I am happier I am standing my ground on this.

It hurts though, god it hurts.

[Zelda09]

And so. Enough of the crazy-making. I have made myself a list to refer to whenever I think I want to cry over this amazing person that used to be my husband, any of his kindness or attributes I love, and any of the memories I am grieving and the dreams that I am giving up.

I took my wedding rings off. They no longer have any power or meaning for me. It is a sadness, but not my failure or fault.

I am breathing deep yoga breaths. In for strength and self-appreciation, humor -- out for relief, hope and joy for future, letting anxiety go. The general tenseness in my body is leaving.

My list I will refer to when I am weak:

1. Pushed off the dock out of jealousy six months in
2. Blocked phone calls for a week, pretending everything was fine.
3. Denying I was financially supporting him
4. Making me feel ridiculous for having any expectations of him in this relationship
5. Increasing feelings of walking on eggshells with my words
6. Ever-present consequence and fear of upsetting him - whether punishment was temper, attack on my character...couldn't be honest with concerns or opinions
7. Intimidation acts
8. Manipulation of EVERYONE (even when he recognized it and said he didn't want to be that person - whatever)
9. "Inability" - ef it. His "inability to drive" has suddenly gone away, and he's driving himself all over now that we broke up.
10. Flipping me off
11. Psychological/emotional bullying
12. "You will need to f. other men if you want to have children" - said minutes before a week long family reunion my mother hosted.
13. "I want to date other people" as he was trying to get back into my pants, after I picked him up from the airport.
14. Triangulation games with his ex and her 'special friendship'
15. 5 days after blow up - no remorse.
16. Gaslighting
17. passive master that expected me to read his mind
18. How and why I had to explain basic elements of respect to him through the years? What was appropriate boundaries with people?
19. Attitude of victim with everything
20. What he 'needed' was people that cared about him, another relationship to bring the stability to his life.
21. Witholding affection from me, silent treatment as punishment
22. Backwards priorities- all about his pleasure, no stresses allowed
23. Low empathy for me. I had to beg for him to listen to me and try to care sometimes
24. No real intention of working or providing
25. Problem with being the 'bad' guy or being assertive enough to say what he wants - constant image maintenance

He has good qualities and I will not focus on them now and torture myself imagining what more I could have done, today or any other day. If he wants my love, to be my partner, he can fight to get it back, directly and fairly. That is what a man I'd respect would do.

I am worth:

Peace
Being able to share my thoughts and concerns without fear
Constant love and consideration
Effort - even when it's not easy

[Vanilla]

Zelda

Easy this all takes time. H has lost control and he will be suffering. The abuse is blown wide open, you are free to talk about it with whomever you please, whenever you please. Silence on abuse is tough on you.

There are a couple of Ted Talks which are inspirational including this one:
TEDEx why domestic violence partners don't leave

Now, Z, open the floodgates on THIS incident, you have the proof, a flat mate who was in attendance. This thread can be your journal.

When you are ready flesh out your incident log, dates, times, and be as specific as you can. It will help you to read it. Any documents, calls texts and recordings, photos. broken pottery etc. The courts can adjust fins for this. For example dates H stopped work, cash input to the M. Examples gaslighting eg keys. Dates calls were blocked. Try an online diary app. Examples of intimidation etc.

For the time being be kind as you can to Z, you need sleep, rest, exercise, good food and company. You could also look at Patricia Evans books in due course, they are reasonable on recovery strategies for you.

Please keep posting, this is very hard reality to face. (((((((Hugs)))))))

V

[Zelda09]

The D we agreed to today was so simple - he takes his material possessions. That's it. It's perfect. I hope it continues going this easy.

[Wonka]

The D we agreed to today was so simple - he takes his material possessions. That's it. It's perfect. I hope it continues going this easy.

Z, get things signed, i's dotted, and t's crossed NOW while he is in an agreeable state of mind (and probably feeling just tad bit guilty).

[Zelda09]

Thanks, Wonka.

[Vanilla]

The D we agreed to today was so simple - he takes his material possessions. That's it. It's perfect. I hope it continues going this easy.

Z, get things signed, i's dotted, and t's crossed NOW while he is in an agreeable state of mind (and probably feeling just tad bit guilty).

Agreed, you can do this as a straight forward Fins letter signed by both and signature witnessed by a third unconnected party. Can still be set aside by the court if they feel it is unfair, which is where your abuse log comes in. Judges can and do adjust if there is abuse. Especially Financial Abuse such as giving up work etc....

After that the pace of the D is irrelevant.

V

[Zelda09]

I have a question for you all -

If these acts of intimidation/temper tantrums occurred less than 15 times in our six year history - and there were no attempts at isolating me, controlling my life and activities- can we really say this is a domestic violence issue? I never felt scared of him, even in the last several days. I knew he would not start anything. I just watched V's video. He was all too happy to leave and be done here. It seems that is very opposite of a typical abuser.

My best friend said that he felt that my H no longer had romantic love for me and just didn't care anymore deep down. That he was trying to fake it all and there was a very big divide in the man H wants to be and is in actuality. That he couldn't stand to be the bad guy. I had to end it.

[Vanilla]

Z

There really is no difference between Domestic Violence and Abuse. It is a question of where in the cycle we sit. My H has as yet not hit me physically yet but verbally, intimidation, belittling etc, certainly. That causes more damage than physical stuff. There is a book that you might like to consider the Verbally Abusive Relationship, by Patricia Evans. The important thing Z is to be free and to indentify the situations and new men you introduce into your life so you now have a life that excludes this. So you can have the loving family that you describe for yourself.

I know that I am not frightened of H physical violence at this point, and it is possible I might never be so. When I doubt myself I replay my MP3 of the rants etc.

Z you created your own list above, revisit it, ask if any of the items on it need to be removed or if any of them are in your mind not abuse. I would ask you if 15 incidents were insufficient then how many would it take, the classic 50 or as in my case a couple of hundred?

I would say to another to be subjected to this once is enough. It has to be stopped at one incident, if it is early in a R then get out.

The TED talk is about a woman at the very end of the abuse spiral, close to serious violent damage.

I have come to understand that too often those of us with well developed positive characters try to analyse the motivators or reasons behind another's behaviour, in essence we give them the 'benefit of the doubt' and assume there are many excuses and that if others become 'aware' then change will arise. My H does what he does because he likes it, it rewards him otherwise he would not do it. H likes to rant, to throw thinks, to intimidate me, it rewards him, releases his aggression. That is control.

The only reason H is not controlling all my life and activities is because I have resisted it. Otherwise this H wants a 'we' relationship. Has H isolated me, yes, it has started but my family and friends mean too much to me.

Further more he is not opening the door for change because he does not want to change. The next time H is in a position to interact in these controlling ways, he will because he has chosen too. These are forces he chooses to allow to take him over. It fulfils his purpose. He is full cognisant, not in denial about it, he knows what he is doing. I got a text saying ' I know I have issues, Sorry I have not dealt with them' . If he had wanted to deal with them he would have. He doesn't, so he hasn't.

V

[gan]

Zel, so sorry to read the latest on your sitch. I'm glad V is weighing in as she has first hand experience with this. All I can offer is virtual hugs. Hang in there, Zel. Space will be good for you both. Who knows where it will lead...

[Ggrass]

Zelda, that clips so graffic it had me in tears, and yet I was never punched.

My child was, there were other things he did do that I cannot go into here. They are just as bad and demoralising as punching. Threats that he knew I userstood, but no one,else saw as real. They saw me in public as the in charge one, it often makes me think I was the abuser. H makes out I am the crazed one. Some days I almost believe it still now a year on.

The r and that list you made is a narcs list, for your h. The reason why h is happy to leave and be gone is narcs don't need dead emtional supply. You are dead used up, mine used the words used up dirty tissue.

Same words he used about his first wife. It's a pattern, it won't get better without huge intervention.

[Ggrass]

And so. Enough of the crazy-making. I have made myself a list to refer to whenever I think I want to cry over this amazing person that used to be my husband, any of his kindness or attributes I love, and any of the memories I am grieving and the dreams that I am giving up.

I took my wedding rings off. They no longer have any power or meaning for me. It is a sadness, but not my failure or fault.

I am breathing deep yoga breaths. In for strength and self-appreciation, humor -- out for relief, hope and joy for future, letting anxiety go. The general tenseness in my body is leaving.

My list I will refer to when I am weak:

1. Pushed off the dock out of jealousy six months in
2. Blocked phone calls for a week, pretending everything was fine.
3. Denying I was financially supporting him
4. Making me feel ridiculous for having any expectations of him in this relationship
5. Increasing feelings of walking on eggshells with my words
6. Ever-present consequence and fear of upsetting him - whether punishment was temper, attack on my character...couldn't be honest with concerns or opinions
7. Intimidation acts
8. Manipulation of EVERYONE (even when he recognized it and said he didn't want to be that person - whatever)
9. "Inability" - ef it. His "inability to drive" has suddenly gone away, and he's driving himself all over now that we broke up.
10. Flipping me off
11. Psychological/emotional bullying
12. "You will need to f. other men if you want to have children" - said minutes before a week long family reunion my mother hosted.
13. "I want to date other people" as he was trying to get back into my pants, after I picked him up from the airport.
14. Triangulation games with his ex and her 'special friendship'
15. 5 days after blow up - no remorse.
16. Gaslighting
17. passive master that expected me to read his mind
18. How and why I had to explain basic elements of respect to him through the years? What was appropriate boundaries with people?
19. Attitude of victim with everything
20. What he 'needed' was people that cared about him, another relationship to bring the stability to his life.
21. Witholding affection from me, silent treatment as punishment
22. Backwards priorities- all about his pleasure, no stresses allowed
23. Low empathy for me. I had to beg for him to listen to me and try to care sometimes
24. No real intention of working or providing
25. Problem with being the 'bad' guy or being assertive enough to say what he wants - constant image maintenance

He has good qualities and I will not focus on them now and torture myself imagining what more I could have done, today or any other day. If he wants my love, to be my partner, he can fight to get it back, directly and fairly. That is what a man I'd respect would do.

I am worth:

Peace
Being able to share my thoughts and concerns without fear
Constant love and consideration
Effort - even when it's not easy

This list is pure narc behaivour, there is no lovely man it was his narc mask. It fell off when he need more drama from you than you were supplying, hence the behviour of triangulation nc nc nc nc nc nc nc nc nc nc nc nc!

Just don't tell him untill you are ready to hear a temper tantrum. Just disappear.

Once he knows your nc and it your choice he will want to control that as it's not his choice.

[Zelda09]

I am closing this thread. The other one is in piecing. Just saw your full posts, Gg...I want to talk more about this, the seeming dynamic of 'who's in charge.'