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Bob723 Offline OP
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Dear 25,

You were not being too harsh at all. Thank you so, so much for checking on me. I don't have much time now, so I hope to post later. You bring up some great points - wonderful advice.

When we do speak (very limited) I am upbeat without over-doing it (I think!). I am on my 17th week of counseling and take anti-enxiety medication daily as prescribed. I have read "You Can Heal Your Life" and found it very helpful.

The folks on this forum are right - you are amazing.

Thanks again 25. I'll try to add more detail later today or tomorrow.

Bob


Me:55 yrs/W:51 yrs (has MS)
M:14 yrs
T:15 yrs
No children together--3 each from previous marriages
Wife Moved Out: 10/19/14
Wife Filed for Divorce: 10/20/14
Divorce Final: 10/21/15
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 1,686
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Bob723 Offline OP
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I'm adding a little to my post from yesterday. I had to contact my WAW (via text for the record) asking her to cancel our landline -- it's in her name and she hasn't been following thru. Anyway, she finally replied and said she did. I probably should've run this by the group, but since I had her attention, I sent her this text:

"If you're sure you'll be happy never seeing me again then so be it. We had a great run together, didn't we?"

Now, for the record, she has never said she'll be happy never seeing me again. Sometimes, when we do speak, I might blurt out that I miss her and she replies immediately that she misses me, too. It sounds so sincere. Who knows except my wife? I'm sure this makes her think I'm trying to get her to change her mind about the D.

So, here is her reply to my text ^^^ the last paragraph:
"A pretty fair one, I'd say. Now, I just need my life back, and if you don't get what that means, maybe ask your counselor. Ciao"

I have already asked my therapist what that means and he said it means different things to different people, and that he thinks I deserve to know what she means by that. She has not replied.

Anyone out there, especially the ladies, have any idea what she might mean? I think my over-protectiveness of her (she has MS) is the main issue. Now, I know how wrong I was but she either refuses to believe me or has emotionally moved on.

I am so heart-broken. Nothing or nobody in this world means more to me than my wife, children and step-children. And yes, I have mentioned this to my wife.

I hope things are getting better for all of you! Hang in there.

Bob


Me:55 yrs/W:51 yrs (has MS)
M:14 yrs
T:15 yrs
No children together--3 each from previous marriages
Wife Moved Out: 10/19/14
Wife Filed for Divorce: 10/20/14
Divorce Final: 10/21/15
Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 977
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Bob, You got amazing information and advice from 25. In reading your text conversation, I think you may have missed some of it.

Originally Posted By: Bob723

"If you're sure you'll be happy never seeing me again then so be it. We had a great run together, didn't we?"

So, here is her reply to my text ^^^ the last paragraph:
"A pretty fair one, I'd say. Now, I just need my life back, and if you don't get what that means, maybe ask your counselor. Ciao"


Do you see this as you requiring validation from her (aka putting pressure on her) that you "had a good run?" She left b/c she didn't want to feel pressure from you. You have just reinforced that you haven't changed and continue to pressure/pursue her. Similarly, you did it condescendingly by stating "If you're sure you'll be happy never seeing me again then so be it." Like you said, she's never said that to you. So why say it? Did you want her to confirm or deny that she never wants to see you?

In regards to "I just need my life back" -- You'll never know exactly how she feels until she tells you, and you are able to listen. However, asking her to tell you is another form of pressure or pursuit... Two things you are supposed to limit unless there is an emergency.

I think you are making obvious progress. I think you should continue to try to learn and diagnose your actions and behaviors in the big picture.


Me: 32 W: 29 T:8 M: 6 D4 S2
M - 8/2008
W is not happy - 1/2014
W wants D - 9/2014
W moved out - 11/2014
D filed - 1/23/2015
D'ed - 2/25/2015
Gave X the Letter - 11/10/2015
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 1,686
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Bob723 Offline OP
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Mahhhty,

You're right, I did get great advice from 25. And your comments have really opened my eyes. Without realizing it, I am pressuring my wife.

I will speak to my therapist about this during my next appointment.

I can't tell you how much yours and everyone's support means to me.

Take care and thank you.

Bob


Me:55 yrs/W:51 yrs (has MS)
M:14 yrs
T:15 yrs
No children together--3 each from previous marriages
Wife Moved Out: 10/19/14
Wife Filed for Divorce: 10/20/14
Divorce Final: 10/21/15
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 13,511
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Bob

Here is another possible way to see your interactions...


Originally Posted By: Bob723
I'm adding a little to my post from yesterday. I had to contact my WAW (via text for the record) asking her to cancel our landline -- it's in her name and she hasn't been following thru.

If it is in HER name, why are you involved in this, at all?

Can you detect your own critical intent in your wording "she hasn't been following thru" = "She failed" ??

Can you see how SHE might think, "Oh, gee, more of the same from h, AGAIN"...?



Anyway, she finally replied and said she did. I probably should've run this by the group, but since I had her attention, I sent her this text:



OR to put another way, "Since I had her attention, I WENT IN FOR MORE & THEN SHOWED MY CONTROLLING BEHAVIOR AGAIN


"If you're sure you'll be happy never seeing me again then so be it. We had a great run together, didn't we?"


These^^^ are not the words of a secure or healthy man. They are words that look like attempts by you to pressure her AND OR to punish her.

"If you are SO SURE blah blah blah, then that's it. I'm GONE!"...

What was your goal in saying that? (Esp since you admit SHE never said that anyway) and btw I think you are lucky she did not take the bait - and say "Good bye forever."



Now, for the record, she has never said she'll be happy never seeing me again. Sometimes, when we do speak, I might blurt out

I know this ^^ won't be easy, but it is SIMPLE (= not complex),

but STOP "BLURTING" things out. Just stop it. It's very destructive.



that I miss her and she replies immediately that she misses me, too. It sounds so sincere. Who knows except my wife?


Ah, so your comment was an attempt to get reassurances from her? At best, that seems like lousy timing to me.


I'm sure this makes her think I'm trying to get her to change her mind about the D.



Well, among other things, of course it does. And it was, in part, exactly that.


So, here is her reply to my text ^^^ the last paragraph:
"A pretty fair one, I'd say. Now, I just need my life back, and if you don't get what that means, maybe ask your counselor. Ciao"

I have already asked my therapist what that means and he said it means different things to different people, and that he thinks I deserve to know what she means by that. She has not replied.


IMO, you should Back WAY off and leave her alone. It means she wants self rule.

STOP asking her to detail an answer she gave you when you "blurted" out an unfair poorly timed question. Why does she "owe" you more of an answer, given the past?

I say be careful what you wish for.


Anyone out there, especially the ladies, have any idea what she might mean? I think my over-protectiveness of her (she has MS) is the main issue.

I have a feeling she has never (or not recently) used the term "over protectiveness" to describe the way she sees your behavior.

I think she said it was your controlling, critical nature that smothers her, and she feels that you are NOT "protecting" her so much as crushing her. She has been clear with you and leaving you 6 years ago for the same reasons, is more clarity than most get.


Didn't you admit you start fights often, take your stress out on her, and you definitely don't back off even when she asks you to....

So my question is, what is there for her to explain?


Now, I know how wrong I was but she either refuses to believe me or has emotionally moved on.


IF you know you were wrong, just say THAT - and let the rest go.

The more you pressure her to back down and return (which is ultimately your goal even if you can't see it), OR to her to reassure you, the more likely you are to get the opposite in return.

The more you challenge her choices, the more you force her to defend those choices.

You persist in the same old behavior, expecting different results OR MAYBE you think b/c she backed down before and came home, (tail between her legs??) that it will work again. But I don't get that vibe from her.


I am so heart-broken. Nothing or nobody in this world means more to me than my wife, children and step-children. And yes, I have mentioned this to my wife.

I hope things are getting better for all of you! Hang in there.

Bob


What are the 180s you are doing? And do you have any short term goals?

I'd focus much more on those and embrace the reality of ambiguity. Yes you wish you had more certainty in your life but you don't right now. Neither does she.

Neither do any of us, actually. Stop trying to force things that cannot be forced.

How is your personal work going? Did you ever check into that personal growth workshop I suggested? ("Essential Experience", aka "EE", held in Philadelphia). I found it life changing. So did my h (but you do not go as a couple. It's for individuals- but of course, each person's self improvement helps them as couples too). I highly recommend it for you. They have a great website, so check that out.

And what about the TED TALK videos? Did you get anything out of them? (If you addressed that already, mea culpa. I have read many threads today and may have forgotten your reply to that).

Work the DB program b/c it works. Get Back to basics,

GAL, 180s and short term goals.

AND PLEASE ask yourself BEFORE you "blurt" out or write to her or DO anything,

whether it's likely to help your situation, OR hurt it.

Asking her for reassurance is a bad idea atm, and so is the constant questioning and demanding clarification. Besides, she may not have the clarity you seem to require and I would not push for more then...

Try harder to relax around her (even if it means an Oscar worthy performance) so she can learn that being around you won't always be such a tiresome challenge to her. The more she believes she can actually relax around you, the better.

IN TIME you may be able to build on that. But one thing at a time. Right now, she's not at all sure she can even have a conversation with you so no, I would not keep pushing.


M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
OW
DIV 2/26/2018
X marries OW 5/2016

= CLOSURE 4 ME
Embrace the Change
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Bob723 Offline OP
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Hi 25!

Thank you for taking the time to read my post and reply. I was following thru about our landline with my wife based on my lawyer's recommendation. It's in her name, so only she can cancel it and I asked her to months ago.

As for the workshop, i did check into it. What a great idea! The problem for me is I cannot take any money out my savings account unless it is used for marital property, etc (called Marital Dissapation).

I completey forgot about the TED TALK videos -- thanks for the reminder.

My therapist thinks she may be so depressed that she can barely take care of herself, let alone think about reconciling or looking too much into the future. (My wife has MS and suffers from pretty severe depression.)

The biggest 180 I am working on now is not contacting her at all.

Again, it's kind of difficult, in my opinion, for her to see any changes I may have made since we have such little phone contact and do not see each other.

I think I got away from the D/B basics 25. That may be the best advice of all!

Thank you so very much. I really need the support as I am still devastated by this. One thing I pride myself in is that I was always there for my wife when she was "down in the dumps" and needed a shoulder to cry on. I think that's why this walk out/divorce are extremely painful to me.

Again, thank you 25.

Bob


Me:55 yrs/W:51 yrs (has MS)
M:14 yrs
T:15 yrs
No children together--3 each from previous marriages
Wife Moved Out: 10/19/14
Wife Filed for Divorce: 10/20/14
Divorce Final: 10/21/15
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 1,686
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Bob723 Offline OP
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Hello All!

The more I think about how my WAW must feel, the more I realize she must find it hard to trust me. I met up with a friend yesterday and talked about the situation leading up to my wife leaving/filing for divorce. Now, I was trying to not contact my wife, but I sent her this little text last night hoping she'd feel a little better (trying to show empathy).

My text:
I met up with a friend today and was brutally honest about the way I had been acting the last few years. By discussing it I realized you'll never be able to trust me again. I understand.

Then tonight, my wife sent this long text. It is the most she has opened up so far. Does anyone out there feel she is letting her emotional defenses down a bit? How should I reply? Should I even bother replying?

My wife's text:
I just wanted to say after that last text, I think you are right. I hate you for that, we could have a good marriage, but you never trusted me from the get-go and you wouldn't give me any personal space. Do you remember that old song - Hold on loosely, but don't let go, If you hang on too tightly to her, you're going to loose control. I felt like a little bird you held in your hand, and the more I tried to stretch my wings, the more tightly you squeezed on me. I would exhaust myself fighting up against you and I would give up on everything. Then when I was able to get out, of course I would try to do as much as I could, for 2 reasons. 1. It just felt so good to have my independence back, which I was used to having before getting married to you. 2. I needed to get as much done as I could because I never knew when the next opportunity would present itself. Then with the MS getting worse, it was that much more difficult to break free from the pressure you put on me. I was getting weaker and finding myself just giving in to what you wanted because I couldn't sum up the energy to stick up for myself. That just pissed me off, then you'd have the gall to wake me out of a perfectly good sleep to yell at me over nothing ? I asked you politely to stop, which you seemed to understand, only to do it more and more often!

I am not sure what my wife meant about me not trusting her from the "get-go." The only thing I can think of is that she would over-spend big-time when she went shopping for herself and we had agreed to a budget.

Anyway, any thoughts? She really opened up.

Thanks.

Bob


Me:55 yrs/W:51 yrs (has MS)
M:14 yrs
T:15 yrs
No children together--3 each from previous marriages
Wife Moved Out: 10/19/14
Wife Filed for Divorce: 10/20/14
Divorce Final: 10/21/15
Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 977
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Bob - She definitely did open up. You should feel good that she did. You've been given a lot of good information, I think you still have a ways to go. Change is difficult, but it will lead to a happier life.

Quote:
My text:
I met up with a friend today and was brutally honest about the way I had been acting the last few years. By discussing it I realized you'll never be able to trust me again. I understand.


Why did you say "By discussing it I realized you'll never be able to trust me again." You are foreshadowing your life with her... Giving her insight into your beliefs about the future. I thought you were invested in changing yourself to change your life and improve your marriage/relationship. You are playing to her hand.

However, give your text kudos. She did respond.

Her text...

Quote:
I just wanted to say after that last text, I think you are right. I hate you for that, we could have a good marriage, but you never trusted me from the get-go and you wouldn't give me any personal space.


She did use the present tense "we could have a good marriage" perhaps a typo. But I would hold onto hope without expectation. You should use for motivation.

Quote:
I felt like a little bird you held in your hand, and the more I tried to stretch my wings, the more tightly you squeezed on me. I would exhaust myself fighting up against you and I would give up on everything.


You stated "The only thing I can think of is that she would over-spend big-time when she went shopping for herself and we had agreed to a budget." Bob... Seriously. You have already admitted to be controlling, pessimistic, argumentative, etc. It is time to step up, be the best person you can, which will enable you to be the happiest father, grandfather, and lover. I want you to write down all the characteristics the enable you to be the person your wife did not like, then formulate how to better yourself in each area. Do you think you can do that?

Quote:
1. It just felt so good to have my independence back, which I was used to having before getting married to you. 2. I needed to get as much done as I could because I never knew when the next opportunity would present itself. Then with the MS getting worse, it was that much more difficult to break free from the pressure you put on me. I was getting weaker and finding myself just giving in to what you wanted because I couldn't sum up the energy to stick up for myself.


I see my father be a controlling husband and I saw it even more when he tried to take care of my mom through two cancer battles. The constant questions and pestering... how are you? are you warm enough? cold enough? hungry? thirsty? whats wrong? what happened? These are all forms of pressure. I'm not sure if this is something you did, but it is definitely something you could not do.

Quote:
That just pissed me off, then you'd have the gall to wake me out of a perfectly good sleep to yell at me over nothing ? I asked you politely to stop, which you seemed to understand, only to do it more and more often!


Bob did that really happen? Would you like someone to do that to you? Do you see how that could be disrespectful? What other acts of disrespect did you do? I think you should come up with another list of items on how you disrespected her, pressured her or tried to control her.

Did you respond to her text? I hope you didn't, but if you did please tell us.


Me: 32 W: 29 T:8 M: 6 D4 S2
M - 8/2008
W is not happy - 1/2014
W wants D - 9/2014
W moved out - 11/2014
D filed - 1/23/2015
D'ed - 2/25/2015
Gave X the Letter - 11/10/2015
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 1,686
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Bob723 Offline OP
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Hello mahhhty,

Thanks, as always, for taking your valuable time to keep up with my sitch and respond. Yes, I am invested in changing myself to change my life and improve my marriage/relationship. I did worry I might be playing into her hand, but I also felt it was the right thing to do. Additionally, I felt it would show empathy on my part--one of the big changes I am trying to make.

Your example about your Dad does sound similiar to me -- especiallly in recent years after my wife was in her 5th car accident in less than 3 years. Now I see how that could smother a person. As I think more and more about it, it would drive me crazy.

Did I wake her up to start arguments? Yes, it happened a few times, the last time was the Thursday evening before she walked away. I am not saying it was right on my part. One time was one time too many. It's another change I'm working on. One fact (not an excuse) is that I have been diagnosed with an anxiety disorder. Add a little alcohol before bed and it can lead to ugly results. I haven't had a drop of alcohol since the day my wife left and I take my medicine daily as prescribed. I feel so much better!

Did I resppnd to her text? I thought about it for quite a while and I finally did. Here it is:

I agree with you that we could have a good marriage. I have being doing a lot of soul-searching. It's not that I never trusted you, but I showed it so poorly. I appreciate the fact that you took the time to explain your feelings. It helps me focus in on the important issues. The way you explained your loss of independence was so vivid I felt like I was seeing it through your eyes for the first time. How hard that must've been for you. I am ashamed that I treated you that way and I am very sorry.

I sent that Wednesday and she hasn't replied. I have not contacted her since.

That's all for now. Thanks again mahhhty!

Bob


Me:55 yrs/W:51 yrs (has MS)
M:14 yrs
T:15 yrs
No children together--3 each from previous marriages
Wife Moved Out: 10/19/14
Wife Filed for Divorce: 10/20/14
Divorce Final: 10/21/15
Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 977
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I'm here for you Bob. And I like your text reply. She probably hasn't responded BC either she doesn't believe you, or may see you trying.


Me: 32 W: 29 T:8 M: 6 D4 S2
M - 8/2008
W is not happy - 1/2014
W wants D - 9/2014
W moved out - 11/2014
D filed - 1/23/2015
D'ed - 2/25/2015
Gave X the Letter - 11/10/2015
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