She's gone and its my own fault..

[cpfc05]

Where have I downplayed my role??

The downfall of my marriage was due to my EA as Ive already mentioned numerous times, and as far as my wife is concerned the two biggest things have been me choosing the OW over her and the kids and the things I have said when the arguements were bad. What else do you want me to say??
That is why my marriage is over at this time.

[cpfc05]

Again as already mentioned, am reading DB, have DR to read and Change your life and everyone else in it.

Am seeing a Pyschologist to try and make changes in my life in how I treat people at times....and over some of my anger Issues.

Am making more of an effort with my children when they come to stay and am trying to help my wife with them more in taking them to school and picking them up etc, even though we currently live in separate towns.

[cpfc05]

Saw my WAW today for a while.
Discussed a leaflet I saw on her kitchen bench a few weeks ago, said how I was saddened and upset to think I may have treated her like that and if she wished we could talk, I would be happy to listen to what she had to say re: her thoughts and views....

Leaflet was on a Family Violence Support Service.

It listed different types of abuse: Emotional Abuse, Verbal Abuse, Social Abuse, Economic Abuse, and Sexual Abuse.

Looking at it now I could be possibly right in assuming at times my behaviour was Emotional Abuse......

[Hope414]

Where have I downplayed my role??

The downfall of my marriage was due to my EA as Ive already mentioned numerous times, and as far as my wife is concerned the two biggest things have been me choosing the OW over her and the kids and the things I have said when the arguements were bad. What else do you want me to say??
That is why my marriage is over at this time.

I think what Mr. Bond is saying (and what many of us probably have noticed) is that you focus on your wife and her problems.

What is lacking from your posts is how you are changing your situation.

Here is my take (for what it is worth):

You cheated on your wife. Whether it was an emotional affair or a physical affair, you cheated. And when your wife literally came face-to-face with the other woman...you chose the other woman.

This is tough for any spouse to forgive.

And, your wife chose not to forgive you.

Now you have to make some choices.

What do you want to do about how you treated your wife when your loyalty was put to the test?

You say you went to counseling. This is a good choice. But counseling is not a passive act. It isn't as if you are going to a physician and getting vaccinated for the flu.

In order to be successful when going through counseling you must be willing to engage in introspection. And then take the introspection and change your behavior.

For example, have you been able to grasp why the face-to-face encounter was upsetting to your wife?

If so, do you understand why taking the other woman's side during this encounter would be emotionally devastating to your wife? And when I ask "do you understand" I want you to empathize with her feelings of vulnerability, shock, betrayal and humiliation. How would you have felt if you had been your wife and she (your wife) had placed you in this awkward position?

And when I say "placed you in this awkward position" I don't mean literally I mean figuratively. By your actions, you placed your spouse in the position of being face-to-face with someone who was having an emotional affair with their spouse.

Your wife's discomfort and anguish was all your fault. And you made it worse by continuing a relationship with this woman after the face-to-face encounter.

So, when reviewing the situation, do you see all this?

If so, do you feel all this?

If so, have you related all this to your wife and then asked your wife what you can do to remedy the situation?

You committed a terrible wrong against your spouse. What I have not read in your post was how you repaired it.

And make no mistake. You broke it so you must repair it.

What appears to have happened is you didn't address the problem and it escalated.

What your posts indicate is that you apologized and tried to "end" the argument "by apologizing" so you could "get your marriage back to normal" as quickly as possible. (i.e.: A couple of counseling sessions to show your culpability.)

If this is what happened--it was remarkably selfish and self-centered. It demonstrates a complete lack of empathy for the emotional devastation you caused your wife.

Can your marriage be saved? I don't know. But, I do know that you have a stronger chance of saving your marriage if you come from a position of humility after committing a wrong against your spouse rather than trying a quick resolution.

If you haven't done deep introspection about what your actions really did to your wife, I would strongly recommend you start there.

Then, after truly understanding her feelings and developing true empathy, I would strongly recommend going to your wife, begging forgiveness and asking her the following question, "What do you need me to do to earn your forgiveness and your trust?"

And, if she gives you an answer, then you do everything she asks--without argument or an attitude. Because it is about what she needs to forgive you and to trust you again.

[Hope414]

Saw my WAW today for a while.
Discussed a leaflet I saw on her kitchen bench a few weeks ago, said how I was saddened and upset to think I may have treated her like that and if she wished we could talk, I would be happy to listen to what she had to say re: her thoughts and views....

Leaflet was on a Family Violence Support Service.

It listed different types of abuse: Emotional Abuse, Verbal Abuse, Social Abuse, Economic Abuse, and Sexual Abuse.

Looking at it now I could be possibly right in assuming at times my behavior was Emotional Abuse......

Also, I wanted to address your post about this because it gives insight into how you may be handling this situation.

Saying you were "saddened and upset to think I may have treated her like that" takes zero responsibility for your actions.

What you just said was that you are expecting your spouse to make the "case" for your "emotional abuse."

But you are leaving yourself open to the possibility that her "point of view" may be wrong.

This is a very arrogant way to approach a conversation about emotional abuse.

You said your behavior could "possibly" be emotional abuse. If you honestly believe this...then own it.

Don't force your wife to make a case for your behavior. It's actually very abusive and lacking in empathy.

And one more thing: Stop calling her a walk-away wife. She left you because you cheated on her.

A walk-away spouse leaves because they are cheating on their spouse. Or they are in a mid-life crisis. Or for a hundred reasons, but, these reasons are not attached to their spouse.

Your wife had a valid reason for leaving. In fact, based on your story, if she had visited this web site many people would have sided with her if for leaving you.

[cpfc05]

Hope414,

Thank you for replying.

I'll answer your post as best as I can.

I know and take 100% responsibility for this situation, I know and have not tried to blame my wife for any of it, the reason for my first few long posts were not to try and attribute any blame on my wife's behalf, but to try and give as much information and background to us and the situation and how it came about.

I know it was my stupidity what ever that caused it. I am trying to fix things now and thought I was on the right track, maybe I am not? How do I fix this? I love my wife and am sorry more than any one knows, but these are words, how do I fix this because right now I am lost.
I thought going to see a counseller was a step in the right direction and I now realise that going for the joint session was too soon.

I understand the humiliation, devastation, shock and betrayal I have caused to my wife, how would I have felt if it had been me,....Devastated.

I am reading books (as already listed) and am now actively participating with a psychologist. These were I thought, the first steps in trying to change my behaviours and hopefully repair the massive damage I have caused to my wife.

But I don't honestly know what else I can do to earn her trust again and to repair our relationship, we only see each other when I am there for the kids, as she lives in her place now.

With hindsight maybe it did look like it was a quick fix having the couple of sessions on my own before the joint counselling session, but that was certainly not my intention for it....so I can understand how it may have come across as selfish.

[cpfc05]

Hope414,
In regard to your second post (I don't know how to post the 'highlighted quotes) So i'll try and answer your comments...

My comment regarding feeling saddened and upset, with this I meant I was not previously aware that some of my behaviours could be construed as emotional abuse. It was when I read this leaflet that I realized that a couple of the pointers on it were things I did, and recognized these. So it upset me that I had been guilty of emotional abuse to my wife in the past as I was unaware of it.

I do not like who I have become and who I am, I need and want to change this now for me, and for everyone else in my life.

I will admit that I am not always the most empathetic and sympathetic person, I don't always realize I am doing this but again these are things I am trying to work at with my psychologist.
I am also not always very good at taking responsibility so if the tone of my posts indicates, I apologize, I know I have stuffed up 100% and none of this is my wife's fault.

I am on this site and doing what I am currently doing because I am trying to right all the wrongs I have caused, whether I can do this I do not know. I do not expect my wife to forgive me easily or trust me again in a hurry, I know and understand this....

The alternative is to do nothing and give up. I am not prepared to do this as I DO LOVE MY WIFE and MY CHILDREN and will do anything to repair the relationship with my wife and repair my family.

If I offended anyone with calling my wife 'WAW' I'm sorry, I didn't know what else and was only referring to her as that because of all the other posts I had read on here where one persons partner was away that they were referred to as 'WAW'.

When I bought the leaflet thing up with my wife I wasn't trying to present her a case I was apologizing and trying to say I never realized but now I did, and that if she wanted to talk to me about any of my behaviours I would happily LISTEN to her if she wished, that is all I was trying to do. So I was not trying or I hope it didn't come across as abusive as that was the last thing I Intended.

I lack confidence at times, have low self esteem, and do not take critisim well, so can and do become defensive. These along with my depression are traits/faults I have recognised in me in the last few years.

So please if I come across as defensive bear this in mind, it is not intentional, I want to change...

I value and look forward to other more experienced posters wisdom and guidance, especially in advice on how, and what I need to do to repair the hurt and devastation I have caused my wife.

Take care everyone.

[Hope414]

I do not want to give the impression that I am opposed to to counseling. To the contrary. I strongly encourage individual counseling and marriage counseling.

However, I encourage people look for counseling that is conducted with goals in mind (for example divorce busting). It cannot be passive. Counseling is not effective if you all do is talk and fail to develop an action plan for changing your behavior.

Taking 100% responsibility is more than verbal admission. It involves an emotional understanding and physical action.

It wasn't "stupidity" that caused you to cheat. "Stupidity" infers ignorance of your behavior. And because it infers ignorance there is an unspoken request for leniency toward your actions.

Now, before you say, "Okay, that was a poor choice of words" I realize you aren't choosing your words wondering how they will be dissected. But, how you communicate to us is an indication of how you are probably communicating to your spouse.

I do not doubt you love your wife. I think you love your wife very much. And, I think you are in a great deal of pain, confusion and anguish right now.

But I believe you are going down a wrong path with the mindset of wanting to "fix this."

Yes, you must "fix this." But "fix this" does not mean if I do A then my wife will do B. That is manipulating the situation to get the outcome you desire.

I point you back to my original suggestion. I strongly recommend deep introspection. You will know when you feel empathy for your wife because you will honestly feel her pain...not yours. Your desire to "fix this" will be to heal your wife...not you.

This is why the second step is crucial. To ask your wife what she needs to heal and what she needs you to do so she can forgive.

Again, you didn't say you have done this.

I understand you are lost. You are in a strange world. I fear that you will be in this world for a very long time. But your wife is in an equally strange world. The difference is--you have the power to begin the healing process for both of you.

The fact that you live separately doesn't hinder the healing process. Nothing is stopping you from sending her an email and saying that you want to meet with her to apologize.

Although-be warned--prepare for a pretty hostile response.

But, this is what the apology process is about. Giving the other person permission to be angry when you have wronged them. And not punishing them for their anger.

When your wife realizes that her feelings are being validated, there is a strong chance that she will agree to meet you to discuss your apology.

[Hope414]

cpfc05, I noticed that our posts crossed.

Please know that the love you have for your wife is apparent. And some of your posts are so sad because your pain is so obvious.

Just because you do not have a walk-away wife does not make your situation any less valid. You will find a lot of support here. The people on this forum understand loving their spouse unconditionally. And you love your spouse unconditionally.

You are headed for a very rocky road and the people on this forum will help you on your journey.

Please, never apologize for expressing yourself honestly. I think it is the best way to interact. As I explained, by doing this, it gives us a pretty good idea of how you are probably interacting with you wife.

[cpfc05]

Thanks for your last post Hope414.

The Ironic thing is that, after going to counselling and since coming to this site and reading MWD's book DB I have come to the conclusion that MC or the one I went to is not neccesarily right.

I now believe in SBT more as it seems to have more defined goals, whilst I was going to the MC for me and because I was trying to work towards repairing our relationship I thought that was what my wife wanted as well.

After the failed joint session, I returned a fortnight later on my own, I have not been back again as I don't think he has any thing to offer me. In this I mean when my wife came with me she was guarded and defensive and anger and hostility came out. This I was expecting, I was not expecting the counsellors reaction, which was basically, 'well that's that then, she's said it, your marriage is over'.

I am trying to understand the pain I have caused, I know trust and forgiveness are going to take time or may never be given. But how do I 'heal my wife'?

At the moment, I am trying to give her space, not pester or contact her unnessarily. I am trying to be there for her when ever she needs me, (if she does) or help her if she needs anything and generally just be a decent person to her. I have not argued or denied anything and am trying to take responsibility for my actions, but she is reluctant to talk about any of this and I cannot blame her.

Maybe 'fix' is the wrong word, I am not intentionally trying to manipulate her just trying to heal the hurt, this is where I need guidance.

After bringing up the leaflet today, she did bring up some of what had gone on and was pretty angry with some of it, and was pretty hostile. But this I understand and totally accept, and at least we discussed some of it. I am probably not wording this very well..... but anyway I did apologize again for all of the hurt I have caused her and for the nasty things I said. For her part she knows and accepts I am sorry and she knows I love her.

She cannot in her words 'change how she feels at the present time' and 'will not allow herself to be hurt like that again, and will not go back to that' (the past).

I told her 'I don't want you to go back to the past I want us to go forward'......

Apart from the Joint counselling session, this today has been one of the few occasions we have discussed any of it, she doesn't like thinking/talking about it which is understandable so I do not wish to push the Issue as I have caused her enough upset/misery as it is.

During the discussion when she was quite angry, I told her I love her, think of her all the time and miss her, she told me, 'you know what I don't miss you'.

Then she told me that every time I leave and I give her a hug, she hates it and feels sick as she doesn't want me touching her.

This shook me, I have obviously mistaken how things were because I thought things had been improving with us, we have had dinner together quite a few times, have had times where we have laughed and joked (like old times)and that things were slowly, slowly getting better.

She has even given me a key to her house so when I come over I can let myself in.

I am more than happy for her to be angry with me, it is no more than I deserve and at no stage did I get angry or defensive with her as I know and recognize I am in the wrong and have caused all of this.

In the past I probably would have....but I have to let her be angry with me if this relationship is ever going to improve or reconcile. Again forgive me if I have not worded this well.

I do wish for her to heal and want to help her heal.