Trying to Follow DB & DR

[CaliGuy]

Miman

Just caught up on your sitch .... just my gut feel changing the locks will most likely just add to the "Reasons I left you" column. I would think now is the time so start with some boundaries ... your arrangement is a bit different than most as the OM/OC thing was acceptable but now you changed and have grown to have issues with the arrangement, she obviously wants to continue the lifestyle regardless of your change of heart. Changing the locks at this point is just taking your ball and going home.

I would contact her, tell her you have noticed things missing, tell her you would feel more comfortable that she set up a time to remove all her items with you present ... do not talk her out of leaving .. its done, just let her know a good time frame and leave it at that ... then at least if this continues you have set up some ground work .. if she continues to sneak in and take things .. let her know your bo9undary once more and that the locks will be changed to protect your dwelling .. the one she chose to leave.

Just my .02

[Miman2]

Thanks CaliGuy! Thank sounds pretty reasonable.

[Mozza]

Minman2 - I came to read your sitch because of your title. I admire people who are truly committing to follow the DB process and I'm interested in what results they get. It seems to me that most successful vets have stuck closely to the script. This is what I'm doing, almost from the start (I had 2 weeks of begging too) even when it's hard or counterintuitive. In fact, my first post was called "Fresh separation - trying to play by the book", so, very similar to you.

A key concept that a lot of newcomers don't seem to understand is time. When sandi2 tells you that it's going to take some time, how long do you think that is? You mention August as a deadline, which would give some 5 months to your sitch, making it almost a record-breaking short time. Let me jolt you a little: don't expect this to last less than a year. Prepare to spend next Christmas separated. I'm not exaggerating: go have a look at the success stories at the top of my thread and you'll see that they last at least a year. Yours has plenty of issues and it doesn't look like it can be quickly fixed.

Now try to envision what will happen in the coming year. Do this to prepare yourself. She will move out all of her stuff. She'll deepen her relationship with the OC. She'll move in August. She'll ask for a D, she'll get a lawyer and so will you. You might draft or even sign the D papers. Brace yourself. It's part of the process.

Realize that time is on your side. Right now, she's as far from you as she'll be in the coming year. Emotionally, you're a nuisance to her, the past, the old H, the wet blanket, the troubles. This OC is the future, they are the thrill of her life. They are great. Try to remember when you were newly in love. Did you care about your ex? What if your ex told you, in tears, that she loved you so much, that she wanted to "work" on things? But much the way your R with W has normalized over the years, all R do. This love triangle she got herself into sounds like a high wire act. I wonder if she likes both equally? There will be jealousy. She'll have only them so she might become a little smothering. Regardless, remember that the honeymoon phase doesn't last: it's a truth of the human condition.

Do not waste any time: give her the impression that you're moving on ASAP. The earlier you do it, the more impact you'll have, the more doubts you'll give her.

On this topic, the messages that sandi2 wrote you are gold. Not every newcomer gets her attention on this board. Make sure you read them often. When you have a new question, go back to her posts to you and that of Cadet to look for answers.

Another concept that few newcomers understand is that of control. We have none over our WAW. Our M are over, they have left us. What we're doing here is mostly not screwing up the R further, so as to preserve hope that something might be reborn. It's also about saving ourselves. Pursuing and being difficult will make it even less likely that we'll ever reconcile. So don't think that you can take actions that will bring her back. The only thing that can bring her back is herself and time.

You haven't quite done yet your "confession". In the first weeks, newcomers spend a lot of time sharing what they might have done wrong in their M to get here. You just told us you were swinging and then your W fell in love with this OC. Tell us more about the issues in your M and what you contributed. It will be important to identify your 180s, etc. to become a better person. You'll get probing question. Let's hope that MrBond comes around here then.

My sitch is now a little old (6 months), so it would be a lot of work to read my 10 threads, but follow from now on if you can because you'll see someone else trying to follow every piece of DB and vet advice. You might want to get back some anyway, to see how things progressed int he beginning. It's all in the first post of my thread.

Please set up your signature, like mine. It helps us a lot to provide you advice to know your age, the duration of your M and R, etc.

Now, let's live up to your thread title!

[Miman2]

Thanks Mozz!

A key concept that a lot of newcomers don't seem to understand is time. When sandi2 tells you that it's going to take some time, how long do you think that is? You mention August as a deadline, which would give some 5 months to your sitch, making it almost a record-breaking short time. Let me jolt you a little: don't expect this to last less than a year. Prepare to spend next Christmas separated. I'm not exaggerating: go have a look at the success stories at the top of my thread and you'll see that they last at least a year. Yours has plenty of issues and it doesn't look like it can be quickly fixed.

Now try to envision what will happen in the coming year. Do this to prepare yourself. She will move out all of her stuff. She'll deepen her relationship with the OC. She'll move in August. She'll ask for a D, she'll get a lawyer and so will you. You might draft or even sign the D papers. Brace yourself. It's part of the process.

Realize that time is on your side. Right now, she's as far from you as she'll be in the coming year.

I realize the whole process takes time. I've read through the success stories and they all seem to take at least 2-3 years to work out. My issue is that I feel like once she moves that will be it. She's moving to Florida and I will be in Michigan. Game over. No chance at reconciliation whatsoever and the thought of spending the rest of my life without her scares the hell out of me. It drains me of any motivation to try and be anything at all, let alone a good husband.

Try to remember when you were newly in love. Did you care about your ex? What if your ex told you, in tears, that she loved you so much, that she wanted to "work" on things?

We were each other's firsts, so no ex's to speak of but I get your point.

This love triangle she got herself into sounds like a high wire act. I wonder if she likes both equally? There will be jealousy. She'll have only them so she might become a little smothering. Regardless, remember that the honeymoon phase doesn't last: it's a truth of the human condition.

She claims she does like them both equally, even though it didn't start out that way.

Do not waste any time: give her the impression that you're moving on ASAP. The earlier you do it, the more impact you'll have, the more doubts you'll give her.

On this topic, the messages that sandi2 wrote you are gold. Not every newcomer gets her attention on this board. Make sure you read them often. When you have a new question, go back to her posts to you and that of Cadet to look for answers.

Another concept that few newcomers understand is that of control. We have none over our WAW. Our M are over, they have left us. What we're doing here is mostly not screwing up the R further, so as to preserve hope that something might be reborn. It's also about saving ourselves. Pursuing and being difficult will make it even less likely that we'll ever reconcile. So don't think that you can take actions that will bring her back. The only thing that can bring her back is herself and time.

Okay!

You haven't quite done yet your "confession". In the first weeks, newcomers spend a lot of time sharing what they might have done wrong in their M to get here. You just told us you were swinging and then your W fell in love with this OC. Tell us more about the issues in your M and what you contributed. It will be important to identify your 180s, etc. to become a better person. You'll get probing question. Let's hope that MrBond comes around here then.

Well a couple of years ago she confessed that she wasn't attracted to me anymore, I did the typical begging/pleading then and she came around. We don't have kids.

Here's what I think I've done wrong over the years. When we first got together she was very shy and sheltered, she didn't drive, wasn't going to school, didn't have a job and wouldn't look anyone in the eye. I wound up moving in with her and her parents. We would go out on cheap dates (we didn't have much money), like to the park to walk around, museums, bookstores etc. We would cook together. She wound up doing the dishes/laundry because she "liked to take care of me". I tried my best to draw her out of her shell. Trying to get her to interact with people by pretending like I couldn't do it for myself (i.e. lets get pizza, will you call? i don't like doing it).

We dated for 4 years, I got into grad school, and we married 2 weeks before leaving our family behind to move to Michigan.

Since then our roles seemed to have reversed. While before I was the independent one and she wasn't as much, now I've become dependent on her for everything. She did everything in the house. Cook, clean, take care of the cats. I had one chore, load the dishwasher, and I didn't even do that religiously. At one point in her life she mentioned she didn’t mind because she liked taking care of me and spoiling me. My guess is it became too much for her to take.

My work is mostly programming so I could spend days “working from home” and she seemed angry about the days I would do that. I would spend several hours each night playing video games which she would eventually join in on. She’s called me controlling and condescending. She’s complained that I don’t participate in taking care of the apartment and cats. And that is why she didn’t want to have kids with me because it would be one more responsibility that she would have to take on.

As far as my 180’s go the whole thing seems a little odd to me. Since she’s left I immediately have become self-dependent again. I knew how, it just wasn’t really required before, so I guess I didn’t bother. It seems hard to show her a 180 behavior that may seem more like self preservation rather than a change. Although when we talked recently she seemed surprised that I was going to work (as opposed to working from home) and cooking for myself.

My sitch is now a little old (6 months), so it would be a lot of work to read my 10 threads, but follow from now on if you can because you'll see someone else trying to follow every piece of DB and vet advice. You might want to get back some anyway, to see how things progressed int he beginning. It's all in the first post of my thread.

Please set up your signature, like mine. It helps us a lot to provide you advice to know your age, the duration of your M and R, etc.

Now, let's live up to your thread title!

Thanks again Mozza! It’s interacting with vets and newcomers alike that I feel I can best implement the DB/DR techniques. Everyone helps make sure I’m staying on the right track and in the right frame of mind. So bring on your hardest questions everyone. I’m going to need all the criticism & help I can get.

[Miman2]

I was rethinking about my 180's last night... I might need to reframe them for my sitch.

[Miman2]

So one of the things I've been doing is going to IC. I mentioned the DB/DR books to my IC and he wasn't familiar with them. I talked about several of the techniques with him and while he was on board with most of them he had a problem with the LRT. He mentioned that instead of stopping interactions (phone calls, texts) that instead I should look at them less as "strategic" interactions and more like "authentic" interactions.

For example: Several weeks ago the the W mentioned maybe we could get lunch together. The IC said I should call/text to ask her when she might want to meet for lunch because I authentically want to meet her for lunch with no ulterior strategy behind it.

This statement by the IC has caused me a LOT of conflict. It's what led me to calling the W after she texted 2 weeks ago. I felt the call was productive but in the big picture of things I worry it wasn't. Which leads me to wanting to interact with her again authentically and it seems like this could lead to an unending cycle leading to pursuit behaviors.

What does everyone else think?

[Miman2]

I am not sure if I understand the second part of that first question. The waiting till they are ready to commit to the M is referring to reconciliation. It is unlikely she will call out of the blue, saying she wants to save the M. However, if that should happen, do not jump at the chance to tell her, "Yes, of course!". You stall, and say something like, "I would like to believe you, however, things aren't that simple now". Then if she asks what you mean, you say, "I would have to feel I would not be hurt again, and considering everything, I don't know that I can take that risk yet". (Side note: You can even practice saying these things to yourself, if it will give you more confidence.)

By this point in the contact, you may be able to decide if she's temp checking or if she's genuine. I can assure you that if you seem excited about the possibities of getting back together, it will turn her away. If there was ever a time to act hard to get, it would be at this time. She has to really want you back.......and not b/c she saw how tough life can be, or b/c OM rejected her, or b/c having you as plan B is safe. You want her back b/c she desires no man but you! If you agree to take her back under any other conditions, it will not be the M you want.

You are waiting to hear her ask what would it take. That is the time to tell her the conditions, and don't tell her before she asks. The conditions should be that she writes a letter to OM, stating that she made a terrible mistake by ending her R with you, and that she does not love OM and never wants to have contact with him again. She tells him she loves you and wants to work on her M. She writes this in her handwriting, no email or text, not even typed out. She gives it to you to read before mailing it. YOU mail the letter, not her.

She agrees to your transparency plan, not hers. She agrees to get tested for any STD, with you going with her to the doctor. She agrees to attend MC sessions with the therapist you choose.

I am probably leaving something out, but you get the general idea. There is a lot to consider when reconciling, or you will have a repeat experience in all probability.

Let me play devils advocate for a moment...
I think it was in Foolish's threads where someone mentioned looking at things from the W's perspective.

From her perspective she's not doing anything we weren't already doing. She decided she wasn't happy with me and the M and thus decided to leave. Sure I'm using the LRT to draw her towards me but at this point she's looking to see how/what I've changed to see if there's anything worth coming back to. So she may not be looking to see what she has to do to repair the R. Sure, I might be able to ask her to do somethings to help start repair the R but I'm not sure if I'll have the leverage to start asking for everything.

Again just trying to look at things from her perspective. Am I WAY off base here?

[CaliGuy]

Miman

Reading up .... I was struck with a post a vet ... 25... posted to me when I arrived here. This might help you some as far as your sitch concerning you doing the changes and your W's view/feelings towards that .... I will just copy and paste it :

Okay...

FROM A WAW TO A LBS HUSBAND WHO HAS CHANGED AND WONDERS WHY HIS WAW HAS NOT COME HOME YET, AND HOW SHE CAN BE AT ALL INTERESTED IN OM….

"When I read your interactions with your wife, I could so easily identify with your wife's feelings/words/sentiments. I have been in her position in my M. I was the ignored, the devalued, the one who was treated as less than.

One of the things that I have tried my hardest not to do, is not to engage with another man. Not just because of my marriage vows, but because I knew that when I truly engaged in any type of R with another man, it would make it that much harder to ever reconcile with my H.

Because being treated differently (better) than the way he treated me would lessen him so much in my eyes. So, I can see where your W is coming from.

When you've been mistreated to the point where you actually let go of your R enough to let another person into your heart or bed or whatever, it takes a boatload of work to get back on a page where you're recommitted to being with your S - and those uncertainties that she's expressed to you, I don't know if you truly, truly fathom how deep they run.

Six months of getting back on a page where you treat her the way that any wife should be treated does not even scratch the surface of the years, the intrinsic devaluing that occurs when you're systematically mistreated for such a stretch of time.

And I promise you that while you have recommitted and worked for 6 months, your W has simply been trying to get to a point where she can even buy into the changes, where she can even think that you might have changed and not scoff at the thought.

Because when you build up hope again and again and again in your H and he crushes it again and again and again, you develop a thick skin, a protective doubt, a conditioned response to even the slightest, grainiest seed of hope. You are taught that when you hope, you will be disappointed. When you try, you will fail. You are taught that you will never be what he wants and it is hard to shake what you have come to believe is reality.

And for the changes that you've made to have come only when she walked away and OM became competition, I can definitely see how she can doubly doubt that you truly want to be in a M with her, and not just to WIN.

Even you today say that you are not sure that you don't just want to "win".

Step 1 - figure that sh!t out ASAP. Because if you actually do manage to convince her that you really do want her and really have recommitted to her and you actually just want to win, you'll put her through hell."

[Miman2]

Thanks again Caliguy! That definitely helps put things into perspective on how a timeline of the healing process develops.

So I mentioned my IC wanted me to not follow the LRT so rigorously, and that he wanted me to try to reason out in authentic ways.

Could it be it takes SO long to heal because most people LRT until the spouse is ready and things don't move along?

[Miman2]

MrBond mentioned something similar to my previous comment in this thread:

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457512&page=11

"Eventually I will start to send out occasional texts (no relationship talk, light and friendly) and then evaluate how she reponds to those."

That is fine. What I was worried about was everyone telling you to do NC, and what happens too often here is that people do NC to the point of never contacting the spouse ever, then wonder why their situation didn't change.

I would say it's perfectly fine to ask how your SD is doing especially since you raised her for half her life.