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Oct 14-28, 2014 | 2009 near-separation, search for explanations.
Oct 28-Nov 4 | OM confirmed through kids on Halloween, refocus on me rather than blaming W
Nov 4-10 | OM confirmed by W in email, strollergate, W has problems at work, unexpected blind date
Nov 10-18 | Lunch with W went well, reflections on being dumped, kids and OM
Nov 18-Dec 8 | W warms up but OM set to move in in January, W's birthday email
Dec 8-Jan 2, 2015 | To be nice or not to be, two trips make me feel better, office party video
Jan 2-16 | Turning down lunch invite, telling W I need to move on, W emails about D
Jan 16-Feb 1 | W wants to change job, move to her country, I agree to meet

My story
After 9.5 years together and two kids, my W announced in early September 2014 that she wanted a separation. A week of pleading and begging didn't change a thing. She said she wanted to be free, alone, find her true self, that I was criticizing her too much, that we're incompatible, that she was unhappy and no longer in love with me and she didn't want to live with half-emotions. She had told me before of some of those complaints and that she was miserable. We had not yet addressed everything, we would fight more than average, and I wasn't changing fast enough, so she was growing hopeless that things would improve.

A week after BD, she moved out. A month and a half later, she confirmed my suspicions that she was with a coworker, met at the new job she started a month before BD (after a year of job-seeking funded by me). A good listener, 10 years younger than me, better-looking and athletic, he'd been courting her from week 1 and was omnipresent throughout her move. He moved in with her in January. Our two daughters know and like him and generally take the S in strides.

DBing
I accept responsibility for what I did in the M, by being too critical and dismissive of my W's feelings. I understand that my W was looking for something she wasn't finding in the M. I sometimes understand why she left, since she was miserable, and sometimes think leaving was too strong a reaction for the situation. I tend to blame her flight reflex and unrealistic expectations for love and family life.

My stance at the moment is to let her live her life while I reflect and try to focus on me. In January, I told her I didn't want to interact beyond the practicalities of the kids because I need to move on. I'm good at being silent and distant. The "no pursuing" rule is easy to apply for me because it means doing nothing. What I'm not so good at is detach. I see a therapist since BD.
_________________________________________________

Success stories
I update this list every time I start a new thread. Feel free to make suggestions, especially with links to threads. I wish we had room in our profile to tell our story so that the vets and other successes could give us a quick summary.

RECONCILIATION
Thornton (M) - May to July 2014
Train (W) - Reconciled in 2014
Labug (W) - March 2011 to December 2013
HopefulStill - reconciled in 2012
minkerman (M) - Reconciled after 4 months in 2008
25yearsmlc (W) - 2005 to August 2008
FaithfulH - Reconciled in 2007
sandi2 (W) - Anyone has a link?
Coach (M) - 2008
MrBond (M) - Used to have another screen name
Starsky309 (M) - (ChocolateEyes, Puppy Dog Tails) - Aug 2007 to 2009. Exposed his W's A.
Butterflymom127 and FavoriteWeirdo - Thread
LITN (I lost the thread!)
Raine (W) - Dec 2012 to November 2014 (MLC)
ReachingHigher (W) - April 2012 to May 2014
This American Life Episode (January 2015): Reunited (And it feels so good) A couple remarries after 2.5 years.

PIECING AS OF 2014-2015
Crimson
Heart14
Nitty - BD in December 2013, piecing as of September 2014

LETTING GO
Love2Surf (M) - March 2010 to 2012
pearlharbr (W) - November 2008 to June 2010 (19 months)
Snow White (W) - 2008-2009. Let go when her H wanted back in.

Validation thread


M39 D6 D3 (at S)
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((Mozza))

I saw in your list of success stories, you had my name and asked about a link. Here is the beginning of my story as a WAW. Maybe it will help someone.

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...410#Post1116410


It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
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Thanks for maintaining the list of success stories, Mozza. LITN - should that be LITB? See here.


H 37 Me 36
Together 15 years
Married 5 years
No kids
BD Apr 2014
H moved out 2 Jun 2014
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Thanks sandi2 and ganb8te! I will update both in the next thread. Hopefully, there will be more contributions. By the way, I always update slightly the top sections of my story and my DBing. Eagle eyes will notice how my perspective on my sitch is changing over time. smile
__________________________________

The lunch appointment for tomorrow, especially the topic, has brought me about three months back emotionally. I have this running monologue that's about about encouraging her to look for happiness inside of her. It's also telling her that the difficulties that she's facing now were predictable and are the consequences of her choices. And that it is no longer my role to sacrifice for her.

It's hard to be faced with someone who's so intent and destructive. Is it depression? Why is she unhappy now as she was 5 months ago? Then it was me and her job would save her. Now it's her job that's making her unhappy and her move will save her. Is she taking her antidepressants now? Is this just a phase, a crisis, or is it her personality taking her further than ever before?

Am I really only to look at her, listen and validate and let her continue on her path? I guess so. It's not like I have a choice. Nothing I can say will set her straight now.

I try to tell myself that if she has decided that she wants to move, there's nothing I can tell her that will change her mind. It was the same thing when she decided to S. Anything I would tell her was manipulative. I didn't understand her, didn't care for her happiness, only mine.

I often wonder if her whole thing makes sense after all. To her, it does. I'm afraid to get caught in my own spin and miss her perspective. She was "miserable" with me, she took charge of her life, seized the opportunity with someone who's kind to her, she's now continuing on this empowerment path by doing what's right for her, including going back home where she feels safe. She's been craving it for years.

I want to go to bed early tonight, have a good night's sleep, dress well tomorrow, work a little, gather my thoughts and my composure. I know that seeing her will reignite plenty of feelings I'm trying to suffocate. I've just seen someone looking like her yesterday and it brought my PMA down a notch.

She's left me, she's with someone else, she's moving forward, my M is dead. Move on. If I could be in this mindset tomorrow, not in the is-there-something-I-can-say-to-wake-you-up mindset, it would be fantastic.


M39 D6 D3 (at S)
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Good luck to you Mozza. I will be thinking about you.

I understand how you feel about the setback. I felt like that the last few months too. I find the distance easier.

I'm going on a coffee date tomorrow! Trying to move on and meet new people.


Me 52 H 44
T9 M 5
BD 12/11 H
split 8/12
OW moved in 12/12
OW gone for good 6/14
We get closer again 9/14
SD 13 Me 4 Grown





Accept what is...let go of what was and have faith in what will be.
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Thanks for your support Karma12. It's nice to know that there are people out there who are supportive and want to know how it goes. I also have a couple of friends on the edge of their seats.

GAL report | I didn't have the kids this weekend, nor plans. I also decided not to see my usual friends, but to spend more time alone. On Saturday, I went to an architecture museum that I hadn't seen in a dozen years. I was just so happy to be there, doing something I really enjoy. I chit chatted with the girl at the entrance since there we no other patrons. On Sunday, I had my favorite comfort food at a restaurant that's so close to WAW's workplace that I can never go during the week. Then I went skating at a beautiful frozen lake in the middle of the city. I was euphoric. It was my favorite family activity last winter and I remember feeling so happy and proud to have family fun, together. I wanted to reclaim the place and it worked.

All three nights, I went to a local restaurant, just for fun. I ate at the bar each time, engaging the staff. I just feel like a grown-up who takes care of himself. Tonight, I went to a place three blocks from my home and this time, a beautiful waitress took my order. I kind of lost my means because I was distracted by her and it showed (I responded the wrong thing to her question) so we joked about it. We flirted further and when I mentioned a magazine she might like, she brought me a piece of paper and, taking the clue (unlike others), I wrote down the magazine's name... and my phone number.


M39 D6 D3 (at S)
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D 2016-09

"You can't start a fire sitting around, crying over a broken heart" - Bruce Springsteen.
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Mozza, good for you going out on your own! I've done that a couple times too. It's not so weird these days to be out alone. Better than sitting home sad.

I am going on a coffee date tomorrow with someone I met online. He's a fireman and I'm a Nurse so we have lots of work stuff in common. I will update you tomorrow. Big step for me.


Me 52 H 44
T9 M 5
BD 12/11 H
split 8/12
OW moved in 12/12
OW gone for good 6/14
We get closer again 9/14
SD 13 Me 4 Grown





Accept what is...let go of what was and have faith in what will be.
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Frigg! My STBX is texting me again! I think he is feeling a shift with me. He texted me twice tonight. I responded to the first text after three days and kept it short. Now he's texted twice....I'm not responding. wTF


Me 52 H 44
T9 M 5
BD 12/11 H
split 8/12
OW moved in 12/12
OW gone for good 6/14
We get closer again 9/14
SD 13 Me 4 Grown





Accept what is...let go of what was and have faith in what will be.
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Thinking of you today, Mozza. Hope the meetup goes well.


H 37 Me 36
Together 15 years
Married 5 years
No kids
BD Apr 2014
H moved out 2 Jun 2014
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Hope your meeting goes well.


Both mid 30s, 2 young kids
BD 7sep14
XW moved on long ago, now living with OM1
D paperwork in progress
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Hi Mozza, good luck for today. Remember, you are calm, centred and strong Mozza. You know how you need to do this, you just need to take deep breaths and put it into action.

Remember, your WAW may be all over the place and you are the rock.

Let us know how things go my friend.

Toots x


T 13 M 7
Me 48 H 46
SS 15
BD 7.14 PA
D final 5.16 (H filed)

We receive & we lose, and must try to achieve gratitude & embrace with whole hearts whatever of life that remains after the losses - Dubus
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Good luck on your meeting Mozza.


Me: 44
W: 45
S: 11
Married: 15
Together: 18
BD: 9/29/2014
OM discovered: 10/16/2014
I left her behind: 12/14/2014
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We are all pulling for you.


It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
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Thinking of you, Mozza!


M: 40 H: 44
Married 14 years
S11 & D6; D20 & D19 from previous M
2BDs/PAs, 8 years apart
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Mozza Offline OP
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Thanks all for your support! I'm in a rush now, finishing work for a client and running to the groceries because I'm hosting tonight. I just wanted to confirm that I survived lunch with WAW. In short, she really wanted a schedule for the next few months and years (D papers, move abroad) but I told her it was too early. Overall, it was more emotional than expected because we had to discuss why it was that she needed to move, etc. I'll give you a fuller update tomorrow.


M39 D6 D3 (at S)
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Mozza I'm late to the party on this one but I just wanted to throw my support in your ring. Keep up the good work! And thank you for the success stories!


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D:8 D:5
M:10 T:15
BD: 10/10/14 D filed: 10/21/14
PA/EA:09/2013 EA:09/2014 - on going (online)
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Sounds like you are on the right road Mozza. Hey Jbird needs some input can you check out his thread and add some words of wisdom?

I went on a coffee date today that went for three hours!!! We are meeting for a second date tomorrow night. Crazy eh? Then after our date I went shopping an decided to stop to have a drink and a bite. I met some amazing Women that meet and go out and they said you will totally fit in with our group give us your number and we will include you in on our next night out. I would never have met them if I hadn't gone out on my own. Just the kind of thing I've been looking for!

Live works in mysterious ways. Sometimes we have to just let go and wait.


Me 52 H 44
T9 M 5
BD 12/11 H
split 8/12
OW moved in 12/12
OW gone for good 6/14
We get closer again 9/14
SD 13 Me 4 Grown





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Mozza,
Been following some of the great advice you have gotten on your threads.
You mention her empowerment path. My WAW went on that same path. Her therapist told her to start speaking up for what she wanted. No longer push things down and work it out. Depression and all of that too. It makes a bumpy ride for a once calm and rational spouse.

As far as your GAL (last post) I too have done that on lonely nights. Don't call your friends, get dressed and go enjoy time alone. Speak to everyone and enjoy making decisions in the moment.

I miss my WAW terribly these days. However, I cannot control the situation and have to just let it be.

Let us know how your meeting went.


Me43/WAW43..M 4y..S1 11/S2 4..Bomb2/2014..Dfile 5/2014..Settlement signed 8/20/14..D final 8/29/14
I moved out 10/10/14..WAW got D she wanted. I wanted R. No waiting,just no boundaries in her way.
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Mozza Offline OP
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So yesterday I had lunch with WAW because she wanted to discuss the timeline of a potential move to her home country and the D paperwork. It was the first time in two months I'd seen her in person and it's the longest (80 min) we've been together since she moved out, 4.5 months ago.

________________________

She told me more about the difficulties she's having. She's back on anti-depressants, back at her IC, back on anti-anxiety medicine, back to insomnia. And now she sometimes drinks herself to sleep (wine) at home. She had so much last week that she took a sick day to get over the hangover. She used to drink 5-6 times a year.

I was saddened by her story and wanted to comfort her in my arms. I wish her no harm, but I'm also relieved to know that leaving me didn't solve all of her problems. After she left me and dropped all drugs and support, I was left me with a sense that maybe I was that bad, I had driven a nice person into prescription drugs and despair.

She wants a schedule to calm down her anxiety about the D papers and the potential move to our country. At the end of the lunch, I didn't agree to a schedule, especially not the move.

The discussion was more emotional than I had anticipated. Since she wanted to move because of her difficulties, we talked about their causes. After some hesitation, I told her that she ought to seek happiness within herself. I was finding her five months after leaving me into a very similar situation to pre-BD. Her flight mechanism isn't making her happy. I observed that many people deal with the same things, like winter, and do better. That it's her reaction to events that causes her difficulties, not the events. I reminded her also that lack of light in the winter depresses her, that she ought to get out there and ski, skate, etc.

I told her that as much as I was touched by her situation, I could no longer deal with her problems. I asked her if any of these consequences of her decision to S were a surprise to her and she said no. I told her about what I had learnt in the S, namely that sometimes we lose control, that life isn't always easy and we have to deal with the consequences. I brought up that I had lost my W, half my kids and half my grand-kids, yet I had to learn to find happiness in this new situation.

I told her that it was difficult for me to hear her pain about missing the things that she rejected when she left me. I could tell she thought I was heading towards suggesting R as a solution, though I was not, and I immediately told her that it was not about R, that I was not even trying to win her back.

Her tone was as definitive as ever about the S. It was not encouraging, but it was not a surprise. She and I don't know the future.

Not a mention of OM. We're always careful to avoid the topic, but I don't see how he fits into her story, except maybe that he may be drinking with her. I couldn't tell what support he provides. I suspect he worsens the situation to an extent because he hates the weather here too. It can't be easy either for him to live with a depressed, anxious, insomniac, borderline alcoholic, soon divorced mother of two. It's different from the carefree colleague he met and had drinks and parties just six months ago.

She's not sharing any of her difficulties with her parents, to whom she's (supposedly) close (only child). She went to visit them at Christmas and said that she stopped the S talks when they brought it up. They're not helpful, she says. I don't really understand because her mom never liked me (her own issues, really) and was supposed to celebrate our S. Also, they'd be overjoyed to have her consider moving to their country with the kids. And they have the money.

So, again, at the end she agreed with me that there are ways to cope with her situation that do not imply moving abroad or setting a schedule to do so. As for the D papers, I said I'd rather wait and she said "I prefer to follow your preferences." She sent me a text later thanking me for the talk and the tips and that she'd do better to adapt.

______________________

I'm happy that I was able to deflect the threat of a move aboard or a timeline to do so. Not sure if it's a good DB thing, but the value of a long term R was apparent to both of us because we know so much about each other. I feel I was probably too open and prescriptive. I told her stuff that she should figure out herself. It seems like she didn't think I was dismissive of her situations, even though some of my feedback was practical advice.


M39 D6 D3 (at S)
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D 2016-09

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Mozza, sounds like the meeting went about as well as it could have. I wish I could handle meetings with STBX with half of your grace. Good thoughts towards you, my friend.

- ship


Me 23, Her 21
1S 2
M <1yr, T 7
WAW: She moved out 11/15/2014
She started D process 1/29/15
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Hi Mozza, sounds lke she is finding the grass isn't so green on the other side of the fence. You handled yourself well. Keep doing what your doing!


Me 52 H 44
T9 M 5
BD 12/11 H
split 8/12
OW moved in 12/12
OW gone for good 6/14
We get closer again 9/14
SD 13 Me 4 Grown





Accept what is...let go of what was and have faith in what will be.
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Oh Mozza, good for you. It sounds like you handled that well.

I have said before that I see similarities in our stories and I have had very similar encounters with my H too with him complaining about depression and self-medicating with alcohol. They made their choices and are still unhappy, even more unhappy than before. But they still see R as impossible and unhelpful. Interesting and irritating.

If nothing else at least you diffused the impending D and her urge to move away for now. Just keep being cool and see if she comes around more for advice and comfort. Mine seemed to but I couldn't stand the cake eating and pushed him away HARD. Now I am not sure if that was a good move. But I think when they are so confused within themselves it is not the time to attempt to reconnect. So maybe this is a much longer road than we hoped.

Good luck Mozza!

Hugs, Lisa

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Mozza,

I hope you are doing well! I stopped by to thank you for posting on my thread I really appreciate your thoughts and advice.

I read some of your thread and I think you are doing a marvelous job of DBing.


M 53
W 44
D25 D20 S22
PA 10/95
BD abt 2k EA
BD 9/2004 PA D'd 1/05/05
DB'd 9/2004-08 PA ends 02/2005
XW rehab 03/2005 piecing until OM3 June?/2005
Remarried 12/28/07
BD 12/18/14
Sep living together
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Mozza,

Just checking in, reading the last couple days, it seems like you've gotten through this bump in the road.

Not to have you mind read, but I can't help but think about just a month or two ago, her sending you that dang video about how 'happy' she was and now she's at such a low. People that understand themselves don't change their feelings that dramatically over a month or so. Seeing the struggles she's going through now puts it into perspective that she's searching to find happiness.

Stay strong, be the stability and the rock that you have been throughout all of this. You've handled it spectacularly.


M:36 W:37
T: 15 M:11
S6 D5
BD: 8/10/14
IDLY: 8/12/14
S: 8/13/14 (she left, I stayed w/ kids)
D Mentioned: 10/15/14
Confronted about OM: 10/15/14
EA: ~4/13 PA: ~10/13
She filed: 8/15 (not final)
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lnlyshp | Thanks a lot for your kind words. I don't feel half as graceful here, but it's nice to give this impression. It has its good sides to be a "conflict avoider".

Karma12 | Thanks for your support. I didn't get much of a feel for the grass on the other side (OM), but in general, her situation isn't improved much. She seemed to imply that her R with OM is great towards the end when telling me that if everything is just as bad as before, at least now she's much happier than before our S. Nice way to reassure me that she's fine...

LisaB | Thanks for pointing at the similarities between our sitches. For a while, I saw these with HPoirot but you're right about what we now have in common. I'm pretty sure my W will cut it off though. I understand your doubts, especially as I'm the poster guy for wanting to reach out and be kind to his WAW. I tell myself that the vets are united and that I need to trust the counter-intuitive process. Also, nothing guarantees results.

Jbird | Thanks Jbird for stopping by too and for such kind words.

MCS | Yes, the change is quite dramatic. I see it as part of the gradual return to reality (if not necessarily to the M). I'm afraid I feel better knowing she's no longer having the time of her life without me...

-------------------

You all have a more positive reading of the meeting than me. I was half expecting a 2x4 by the vets. While I'm happy with the general outcome, there are a few things that bother me.

I've given her practical advice to live a better life. I'm not in this business anymore and honestly it sickens me to think that I might help her relationship with OM in any way. I've done it because her difficulties were threatening to do much harm to me and my kids by pushing for a move abroad.

I'm not clear on this in my summary, but I'm afraid I had the "wet noodle" tone when telling her that I was dealing with the harsh consequences of a decision I didn't make, that her pain was affecting me more than I wanted, etc. In many ways, I implied that S had created the problems and R would solve them. Again, I probably sent her a signal that I'm right there waiting for her, even if my words were different.

Still, it seems the roles have reversed again. She still controls the whole sitch because she left, but she's again relying on me and my judgement to help her see clear through this. It's been our dynamic in the couple and I'm not sure I want to go back there again. But that's where we almost are.

I went into too much philosophy and I shared too much of my pain. At some point, I even ended up in a dead end when I told her: "Remember when you told me 'don't leave me, don't die'?" and she said "Hm, maybe, it seems far away..." This stings (believe none of what they say...), but mostly I ended up not even knowing why I was saying that other than I wanted to. I think I was trying to explain that I also dealt with pain, and so she had to learn to do it too. Not the greatest DB message from LBH to WAW.

___________

My WAW is so intent on following through with the S, not looking back. I sometimes wonder why she wasn't so intent on following through with her M vows, our R and the kids. Just an idle thought. There's no explanation.


M39 D6 D3 (at S)
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Mozza, I see so much of my situation in yours!

I have done similar things with my H in talking to him about his feelings of loneliness and the reasons why he went off with OW(s). I tried to "help" or I don't know, I guess be a friend, by telling him how I could understand and relate from my past experiences. And like you afterward I felt foolish. Maybe I in fact helped him to feel better about leaving me and the decisions he made. In any case it was an R talk that I didn't really need to have.

And indeed my H is also dead set on S, even though he is sad, lonely, depressed and says stuff like "I'll never find anyone I like as much as you". WTF? Can I say that on here? Yeah.. what the ...???? He also says things like "I feel lonely and sad but I guess that is just what happens when you are getting over a relationship".

Don't beat yourself up for the support and empathy you gave her and don't worry too much about what she says.

I really like how MCS brought up the happy video thing. I forgot about that. It is a perfect example of these crazy WAS. Trying to show how happy they are and what a good decision they made while feeling confused and sad half the time.

Hugs to you Mozza!

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Thanks LisaB. Yet more parallels. I'm glad I'm following your sitch closely. Its hard in the middle of it to make sense of their emotions which is likely why DB tells us to avoid it...


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Thematic post...

I wonder what do to with my in-laws. Here's the full story and dilemma, as a cross-cutting view on my R and S.

MIL disliked me from the start. A lot. For instance, she didn't talk to W for 2 years because she decided to stay with me (we had been together for 2 years when it started). We even had D6 during that time and she didn't come to see the baby (FIL came). Don't look into me for answers, it's really MIL's own strange issues (I'm not good enough for their only child). My WAW has always been indifferent to her mom's opinion of me, seeing is as some mental health issue that was sad, but unrelated to me, unworthy of affecting her judgement of me. Very good on her. When we almost S in 2009, they apparently opened a bottle of champagne to celebrate... It has gotten much better since then. FIL decided to accept and engage me. MIL has become polite and didn't complain anymore.

WAW has been mysterious about their reaction to the S this time. First she told me that her mom called her to say she had nightmares, insomnia and more after hearing the news. Then WAW said she didn't want any of the moralizing crap from her, she just wanted cash to move out. Then when I pressed her to know what her mom had said (pre-DB!), she said, evasively, "Well she's happy I've finally seen the light."

Now I was very surprised this week to hear from WAW that she doesn't talk about the S with her parents. She's very close to her dad. She even said that she cut off the conversation about it when she visited them in December because they were "not helpful". It doesn't sound like a strong statement of support. Then again, perhaps that they are unreasonable in wanting to bring her to their country, with the kids, and sue me for the custody (they're loaded). My WAW would be reasonable enough to avoid this kind of thing. WAW hasn't told them either how difficult it is right now because she doesn't want to worry them. I always imagined that they were strongly on her side and pulling her to their city. I just don't know anymore. My parents and many people tell me that now that we have two kids, their views may have changed and they may want a stable family -- FIL in particular is very family-oriented. They love their granddaughters a lot.

FIL sent me birthday wishes, one month after BD. He made no mention of the S, but he was a little beyond nice, chit chatting about more than the basics. I responded in kind and left it at that. Then I sent him wishes at Christmas with more niceties and he responded, again in kind. I responded again to wish them a happy new year. Now he just responded a few days ago, thanking me for things I've done for the kids and telling me stuff about his work, etc. It will be MIL's birthday in a couple of weeks.

I understand it's best not to think too much about it, but I wonder if I should keep this correspondence going. They initiated it, but I don't know what they want out of it. I doubt it's innocent. To me, it's either that they do what they think reasonable people should do with the father of their grandchildren; they want to maintain a good relationship for the sake of the kids; they don't support the S but clearly can't be overt about it, against the decision of their daughter.

Thoughts?


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Mozza,

I don't really have any advice, just some thoughts and a brief version of my related R with my inlaws.

In the beginning we were all close and had a lot of fun family gatherings. However after the 1st time W file for D. I made huge mistake talking to them about it. W told her side and I told them mine. My version of the problem was that their son caused my wife to be messed up because he forced her to have sex with him by threats and manipulation. Big lesson learned, blood is thicker than water. FIL and MIL have not spoken to me in 15 yrs and they didn't attend graduation for my children. They believe it was just kids experimenting and I am to blame for W's mental issues.

If I had it to do over again I would not have any R talk with my inlaws. I would be friendly and have a PMA around the inlaws.

I did do a 180 today, right or wrong I sent a get well message to MIL. Yesterday she broke her nose by rear ending a golf cart with her golf cart. It knocked her out!

As always Mozza you are thinking before you do something, I admire this trait!


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Hi Mozza,

Just be careful how close a relationship you keep with ur Waws family. It can cause you more pain and make it harder to detach. Especially if you keep hearing from them about her and her life.

I stayed close with my SIL ( MIL and FIL passed) after we S. She really liked me and was disgusted by her brothers behaviour. Over the last couple of years I have kept in touch but let the time between get longer. It's easier to not be around all of what was my old life. I still see my SD and I will never abandon her though that connection to STBX has not always been easy either.

I feel like I am finally coming out the other side. Things that would have hurt me don't hurt as much. I was reading on the MLC side and someone posted about making a list of all the things you wouldn't want to go back to with and about your ex. Try it. It can be quite enlightening. Often when we are missing them we forget some of the stuff that we don't miss. ; )


Me 52 H 44
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BD 12/11 H
split 8/12
OW moved in 12/12
OW gone for good 6/14
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Hi Mozza, I think being polite with the in laws is part of the package when you have kids. Now you are truly family and so you'll always have a connection.

I wouldn't read too much into their behavior it could really mean anything.

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Thanks all. You've reinforced my intention to avoid R talk with my in-laws, even though I'd really like to get a feel about whether we're on the same side on this as my WAW is sending mixed signals about it. I'm guessing it wouldn't make a difference anyway.

Originally Posted By: Karma12
I was reading on the MLC side and someone posted about making a list of all the things you wouldn't want to go back to with and about your ex. Try it. It can be quite enlightening. Often when we are missing them we forget some of the stuff that we don't miss. ; )

I'm afraid of doing this. As much as I know I need to detach, I'm afraid of falling out of love with her and then never be able to get back together, even though there was so much love and the kids.

-------
OK, I've just done it... It was rather unpleasant. I'm not sure why. I just don't like to dwell on these things. I've written many letters and emails about how upset I am with her. I complain to friends and family about her shortcomings that lead us where we are. Yet, it didn't feel good to create the list and I can't say that I feel much better afterwards. Maybe later.

My other problem with this kind of list is that I could do it for any spouse, including the next one for whom I'll likely to be head over heels for a while (this whole sitch has disillusioned me a lot about real love). The crux of it is that WAW left me because this tally about my shortcomings was bigger than her tolerance would allow; but that whatever was wrong with her, it wasn't enough for me to leave her. I'll never come up with a strong enough list to make me feel good about being S.

During our S talks of 2009, I sent her a list of things I liked about her (I was not BDing back then, but it worked... for a while...). This is the kind of things that I always liked to think about, especially in the good moments. Since BD, I've made a list of things I'd like to do with her (or my next partner...), how I'd like to be different, a list of surprises to make her happy, etc. I'm much more enthusiastic about that.

Thanks a lot Karma12 for the suggestion. I appreciate exploring all manners of solutions and thought experiments.


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Mozza,

MIL not liking you at all. I wonder if it had anything to with your negative talk and put downs over the years. As you can imagine, no mother likes to have a son or daughter being dismissed and thought of in a negative light. After years of your negative talk, it isn't any wonder that MIL is wary of you being around her daughter.

Any parent's dream is for their son/daughter to be truly loved by the spouse in a supportive and uplifting way.

Does it really matter what you'd like to know about "being on the same page" when your actions have demonstrated thus far? That will take a long time for MIL to come around to believing that your changes are genuine and lasting.

I don't blame her at all. My youngest sister was married to a man who constantly put her down...both in private and public. All of that just wore down her self-esteem and her bright light was severely diminished UNTIL she finally divorced him.

Food for thought.

Did you just sent out that whack email? Why??!! Why??!

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Hi Mozza,

I'm not sure i agree that that kind of list (of their negatives) is helpful. I feel it would make me more angry, especially as it is my ego's sense of injustice and helplessness that is driving my anger at the moment. I think that list would worsen it

Originally Posted By: Mozza
how I'd like to be different


this gem was tucked in there, thats the list i think has the most value for whatever your future relationship looks like

given everything going on you seem remarkably ok.

as always wishing you the best.


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I'm asking myself when the best timing is to talk to in laws. Sometime early in the stitch, depending on WAS behaviour, it could be beneficial. Or also later if W is confused. But you never know how or if she really is. It's a risk it's going against you, depending on the family.
It highly depends on how the family functions too. There are a lot of factors. But IMO if you talk to the with the utmost of respect, without any blaming whatsoever, I don't see why it would harm the situation. But that's just my opinion. And I fo t have experience with it.

It feels like WAWs that are breaking their marriage also break with their families a bit.

But if you do talk to them you DEF need to be fully detached. If you're not I'm sure you'll make mistakes too early in the sitch.


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Hi Mozza!

The list helped me in this way. I missed the old H. From the beginning that was engaged, loving affectionate.

What I did not miss. The H, that was withdrawn, that ignored me, that let me go for a biopsy alone, that dismissed my feelings, that cheated on me. That told me he was unhappy after I told him I was unhappy and tired of doing pretty much everything. After fighting for custody of his daughter I was the primary parent. He was very messy....I am not. I cooked he didn't. Now the house is a pigs pen. My poor SD is running a muck at 13 yrs old. The pets are not being taken care of. His life is in constant conflict and I do not miss any of that one bit!!!!

My home is peaceful...it is clean....I have food in my home that is not rotten. When SD comes she feels loved and taken care of. My kids ( adults now ) say my home feels so welcome and inviting.

I chose peace and harmony in my life. I feel compassion for my ex spouse. He has lost so much that he is not even aware of yet. His daughter is angry and resentful. He has lost a wife that only a fool would leave. Life is about choices...

I chose peace....and healing...


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Originally Posted By: Wonka
MIL not liking you at all. I wonder if it had anything to with your negative talk and put downs over the years.

I can see how that could be a plausible explanation for her attitude. She has made her reasons very clear, however, both to WAW and to me. A month or two into our R, when we still lived in their country (and I hadn't criticized her daughter ever yet), she called me for a meeting and told me the whole story of her daughter, implying that she was not for me. When it blew up a few years later, I called her to try to smooth things out. We spent some 40 minutes on the phone where she explained again her reasons for disliking me and it had nothing to do with my behavior. Over time, once she reconciled with her daughter, she started to accept me and was then polite. We all acted as if nothing had happened. I think she did it to make her H happy and that it wasn't working anyway.

Originally Posted By: Wonka
Did you just sent out that whack email? Why??!! Why??!

Not sure what you're referring to?

Originally Posted By: jim0987
given everything going on you seem remarkably ok.

Thanks jim09087. This was surprisingly soothing. I don't feel alright, with all this pain, but I try to make it so. This morning, I woke up after 5 hours of sleep thinking about WAW and OM. It hadn't happened in weeks. No amount of distraction would block that thought enough to put me back to sleep. Yet, I keep a mostly zen-like attitude of letting time do its work, both on WAW and on me.

Well, WAW just sent me one of her random emails and now I'm crying... Seriously, this has to sop: both her and me. I won't respond, even though I'm aching to engage with her.


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Sorry to hear she is still 'bugging' you and making you suffer.
But you really do seem well considering what's going on.
Oh man, I said it weeks ago in your sitch...I wish W could see who you are and who you became. But life is about choices, and some people make some and stick with them until they realize what they have done...and even then they will resentfully accept their mistakes and move on.

What are your W's emails saying? Are you thinking about responding that she should stop them?


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BD 6/2014
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GAL and PMA Report | I ended up having a fantastic day just about an hour after I sent the post above, which supports my habit to avoid writing it down every time I'm down because it's all so fleeting. I had one of my most productive days at work since the Holidays and perhaps since BD. Tonight, the kids were in bed early, I've cleaned large parts of the house, etc. I don't even know why. Too bad: I'd like to recreate the conditions. A couple of weeks ago, I ruined my laptop by pouring orange juice on it. It struck my productivity as I couldn't go to my workspace (I'm a freelancer) and had to work from home on my desktop computer, which is not as good. I spent this morning reinstalling software and was back at work this afternoon meeting deadlines. This is great for my PMA.

While I'm at it, and because I'm about to reach the 5-month mark, here are a few things that have improved since DB.

1- I'm closer to my kids, I receive and give them more affection.
2- I'm much closer to my parents, with whom I speak at length every day.
3- I got closer to many friends and family members as well.
4- I'm finally seeing an IC, something I wish I'd done earlier.
5- I look better and I'm told often by people who wonder what changed in me. I feel more confident.
6- I exercise regularly, something I hadn't done in some 12 years. I can feel and see the impact.
7- I learned to cook a few new things, including a couple of desserts.
8- My practical life didn't tank, as I feared at DB: work, household, etc.
9- I matured a lot about relationships and my role in them (kudos to all of you).
10- My self-awareness has increased greatly, weaknesses and strengths.
11- I'm not a man only a fool would leave, but I'm closer than 5 months ago.
12- I have gained the respect of many people for the way I behaved in the sitch.


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Originally Posted By: Complex
But you really do seem well considering what's going on.
Oh man, I said it weeks ago in your sitch... I wish W could see who you are and who you became.

Thanks Complex, that's really nice to hear. I also wish my WAW could see it, but I'm really content to do it for myself. I know that I will benefit from it. I do think that our M would be tremendously different and mostly to her liking if she were to come back, but I'm very aware that it doesn't work like that. In fact, it reminds me of my rationale for wanting be with the hottest girl of my high school: But I'd make her so happy! Doesn't matter: she has to want it.

Originally Posted By: Complex
What are your W's emails saying? Are you thinking about responding that she should stop them?

This morning, it was about how her laptop broke down, much like mine did a couple of weeks ago. I had told her about my misadventure as part of the small talk at last week's lunch. She wrote that the two devices must have spoken to each other. It was just a way to relate to me. It seems natural that she thought of me when her computer broke down and I'm not surprised that she didn't have the restraint to avoid telling me about it. When something crosses her mind, it crosses her lips.


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Mozza, that is a great list of improvements you have made. Keep up the the work!


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Yeah, I agree. Probably a good idea for all of us with WASs to make that list.


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Wife moved out left 17, 18 an 19 yr olds at home when I was incarcerated for tax evasion to take a job and live 4 hours away.

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Thanks guys — good idea to work on your list, though it does take a few months to take shape. Of course, I'm still sad but this is not a list out of spite, it's things about which I'm genuinely pleased. I feel closer to being able to say "I'm a changed man since the S" even though I don't think I'll really know until I'm in an R to apply many of the changes.
__________________

The in-laws discussion was relevant. WAW just told me that FIL will be coming to town (from abroad) over Easter in early April. It means a change of kids schedule to which I will agree, given the circumstances (he can't come at another time because of his work). I will also tell her that I'd be happy to have coffee with him, given that he'll be on his own while she's working a few of those days. I'll keep it to small talk, but I'll open the door to see if he wants to talk about the S. I have one thing to tell him: the S was not my decision and I would have preferred to make it work. That's it, if he doesn't want to go any further. Looking back at all the lies she told me around S, I just don't know that WAW told her parents this simple truth. He's a family man and I doubt that he's all that pleased about the S. I've earned his respect with hard work over the years and I'd like to keep some of it as we'll be in touch through the kids.


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We agreed on the schedule change for Easter. It went smoothly, but I hate that. It feels so ridiculous, useless. We both are their parents, I love her, she can love me and we should be together as a family. But who cares if I think so? I need to accept reality.

I told her about being available for coffee with FIL if he's by himself while she's at work. She said it would depend if she can take the whole week off and that she'd keep me posted.
________________________

I forgot to mention that it's the 5-month mark of BD today (BD is 9/11). It got me thinking about the 6-month typical duration of an A, even though I try to no longer think about these things. I'm doing much better than 5 months ago when I wouldn't eat, work, sleep properly, listen to music or think of anything else.

But I'm tired of crying every single day and feeling such pain and denial. I didn't know it would last that long — I felt it was too long after 2 months (I almost never cried before). I don't see the end of it. I did have a moment this morning when I remembered how she could get on my nerves sometimes. I wonder if it's unavoidable because of her very nature or if it's something where I could control my reaction. The latter, I guess. Regardless of who's my next partner, I will have to learn to explore my reactions.

Trust the process, detach, GAL, focus on myself...


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Good to read your posts Mozza.


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Originally Posted By: Mozza

But I'm tired of crying every single day and feeling such pain and denial. I didn't know it would last that long — I felt it was too long after 2 months (I almost never cried before). I don't see the end of it.

...

Trust the process, detach, GAL, focus on myself...


I am coming up on two months and it is pure torture. One thing that my IC told me was that even though I am GAL and detaching it is actually GOOD to have the "emotional" time as well. As long as its not in front of the W or kids.


life is too short....
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NewB3 - Thanks. I really appreciate that you read and take the time to say so.

Leon01 - Torture, yes. I remember at two months bawling on the phone with my parents while on a quiet street. At 39... I would say: "It's too hard. It's too long." I've never really held back from being sad or crying. I know some people hold it in and come have told me that they regretted it later. Well, I sure won't be able to say that I've held it in when my W left me!

--------------------------

Just had one of the best sessions with my IC. Too often, these are hijacked by my WAW. Last time, it was all about our recent meeting, about the move abroad. I just go on and on about her and, when I leave, I feel like I wasted an opportunity to learn something.

Today was all clear, so we really talked about me. He's Freudian (psychoanalysis - the subconscious) and it was on full display today. I mentioned reading NMMNG and how it challenges us to find our true desires, not what we do to please others. How can I see the difference? I'm not used to it. He observed that it took me the S to look at this, and that not everybody does it.

We talked about desires and interdicts. We have certain desires that we censor before we even acknowledge them. We have integrated these bans, be it from authorities, the law, moral codes, etc. We're ashamed of these desires and would rather not even know about them. He told me about how dreams are a clearer, if not perfect, expression of these desires. We talked about sex a great deal and how it's difficult for me to acknowledge that I have sexual desires that are not attached to a long-term relationship (I've never had sex outside of one).

We talked about the girl to whom I gave my phone number last week and how it was difficult for me to even recognize that I desired her. At first, I was giving fictional examples, until I "confessed" that she had been on my mind. It's awfully difficult for me to open up about having such an interest in someone and even worse when it's physical. It's there that I realized that, yes, I had thought about her in this way and that it was ok, it's a desire and I can recognize it without shame. That's in part why I'm writing it here, even knowing that such interest is frowned upon before the D is final.

We even talked about friends in my support network, and how my current situation (of availability) positions me with regards to them. Why do I share certain things with them? What kind of reaction do I expect from them? How are they going to feel? I might be afraid of creating a rift because they can't do what I can do, that is seeking the company of other women. It might be something that they would enjoy, be it not for certain reasons for which they censor these desires. What will happen the day that I act on these desires? What will become of our friendship, once we are no longer in the same "band of losers" (my words) that think they can't get the girl?

When these sessions go well, I usually leave much more at peace with myself and my desires. I feel lighter, more confident that I can express them and seek to satisfy them without being rejected. I feel like I understand myself better or at least that I don't try to hide from myself what I want. At the beginning of the therapy, it was a bit frustrating not to come out with practical advice to feel better, but again I can see that in the long run (been some 15-20 sessions), it's really helping me to become myself, a guy comfortable in his own skin.


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Mozza,

Glad to read that things are progressing well for you on a personal level.

Originally Posted By: Mozza
We talked about the girl to whom I gave my phone number last week and how it was difficult for me to even recognize that I desired her. At first, I was giving fictional examples, until I "confessed" that she had been on my mind. It's awfully difficult for me to open up about having such an interest in someone and even worse when it's physical. It's there that I realized that, yes, I had thought about her in this way and that it was ok, it's a desire and I can recognize it without shame. That's in part why I'm writing it here, even knowing that such interest is frowned upon before the D is final.


Not true. What is frowned (I prefer the word "discouraged") around here is acting on those desires that's such a slippery rope for the LBS in the midst of a personal turmoil.

He77 yes! We do have interests and physical desires ALL the time. It is self-restraint that shows self-awareness of the potential minefield one walks in while DBing. It comes from a place of neediness rather than being whole and emotionally healthy.

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Mozza, sorry I've been out of touch. I'm glad to hear you're still going to regular IC sessions and that at least some of them are successful. Keep plugging with the DB principles and try not to spend any time thinking about the average 6-month A length. Who knows how long your WAW's A is going to last. And don't fret that you're still suffering. Nearly 7 months after my BD, I was crying in my aunt's shoulder. I believe that DBing somewhat speeds up your grieving process. But much more than that, it puts you in a fantastic place when you do reach the true, released, content acceptance stage of grief. You will get there! For now, keep crying whenever needed


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Originally Posted By: Wonka
Not true. What is frowned (I prefer the word "discouraged") around here is acting on those desires that's such a slippery rope for the LBS in the midst of a personal turmoil.

Good point, Wonka. I'll think about that and I'll bring it up with my IC: What about acting on these desires? During a S? I'm curious to know what his school of thought makes of it. Was he just telling me to acknowledge these desires without trying to fulfill them under my present circumstances? It's a good lead.

Card29: Thanks a lot for stopping by! And for your words of wisdom. It's nice to talk to someone who has crossed the Rubicon of detachment, knowing it's somewhere ahead.


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Mozza,

I missed the last page or two in your post, but I think I'm feeling the same way as you right now and I'm trying to figure out what my reaction is and whether it's "good" or not. I feel like I need affection and intimacy, but don't feel comfortable doing anything other than desiring it. I'm not sure how to crack that feeling. I guess it's part of detaching, but I was out at dinner at a bar with some friends and every girl that walked in the door I was thinking to myself, is she available, wonder if she's my type, is she wearing a ring, etc. It got to the point I just wanted to leave because I couldn't get it off my mind.

I'm down to crying about every other day. It stinks because I feel like I've made progress, but I see that constant pull in both directions. I also see that this is one more thing I can empathize with my wife in her sitch over the last year and how she always felt "guilty" around me. She blamed it on me, of course, but I can now understand how a little piece of me is upset that I'm not going to pursue anyone else because I'm still committed to her. Not an overwhelming feeling, but it's small and there.


M:36 W:37
T: 15 M:11
S6 D5
BD: 8/10/14
IDLY: 8/12/14
S: 8/13/14 (she left, I stayed w/ kids)
D Mentioned: 10/15/14
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Mozza,

I'm sorry you are still hurting so much. I found that after facing every first. ( Xmas, bday, ect) that it does get easier. Recreating new memories so I'm not haunted by all the old ones helps me.

You are a healthy man. Do not feel bad for having desires. If at some point you do decide to D. It's those desires that will remind you that you are still alive and you will seek passion and love again.


Me 52 H 44
T9 M 5
BD 12/11 H
split 8/12
OW moved in 12/12
OW gone for good 6/14
We get closer again 9/14
SD 13 Me 4 Grown





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Mozza,

I think all of us have the same concerns about intimacy during this period of tribulation we are going through. I was ML with W more often than I can remember up until almost BD. Then no hugs no affection for two months now. BD didn't change my testosterone level so I still have major desires. I looked on a dating site just to see what I might think of some of the women. I wouldn't even consider dating someone now, not detached enough and who would date a man still in my situation. Only a home wrecker! I found I compared everyone to W in terms of looks, only one of a hundred or so interested me, most of the profiles scared me away. I've seen some attractive ladies out and about but no desire to talk to any of them. It's certainly normal to stil want intimacy, having a BD dropped on us doesn't make us creeps for still having desires.

I agree that is not a good time to pursue anyone at this juncture.

Jbird


M 53
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BD 9/2004 PA D'd 1/05/05
DB'd 9/2004-08 PA ends 02/2005
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I'm trying to work, yet I have in the back of my head this running list of reasons why WAW should come back. It's just there. I'm an involved and loving father, hard-working and successful, not so bad looking, a good lover, I cook, I'm willing to learn, I'm a family man, I exercise, I have a large network of friends, I got reasonable taste. I'm not an alcoholic, a gambler, a violent or lazy man.

Reading the LBW around here complain about the jerk moves of their WAH is disheartening. They cheat, get drunk, obsess about their work, neglect their kids and sit on their a$$es. Yet they have these articulate, patient and mature women pining for them while my WAW sees me as part of a past that she doesn't want think about.

Because I criticized and neglected her, that's why. And why not. It's a fair point. She was "miserable" after all. Any reason is good enough, for the WAW has no justification to provide and none that could satisfy the LBH anyway. We're free to come and go from our M and that's a fact. It can be because of one too many criticism or one overcooked asparagus. As 25yearsmlc is fond of repeating, there's no point in torturing ourselves with "why??"

Hey, voice in my head, I'm talking to you.


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Mozza we can not change the past we can only learn from it. You can keep beating yourself up over things you can't go back and change or you can learn and grow from it.

Sometimes I takes something big like a loss to make us take a look in the mirror and decide to make changes.

I can tell you in my first marriage it was too late for me. There was lots of warning before I got to the point of no return with my first H. When I did finally throw in the towel all of a sudden he wanted to change. The problem was though he's changes were to try and win me back rather than to actually reflect and truly change.

It took my first H. The loss of me and then his next serious relationship to take some time and really work on himself. After his fiancée broke up with him he called me and was crying. I told him this time change for you. Go back to the IC without wanting to win anybody back. Go back for you.

He did go back and is now a much happier person. He had a better relationship with our kids. He met and married someone that he has now been with for 15 yrs.

We are very different people and even our kids can't imagine us as a couple now. Lol We are though very friendly and attend all the kids ( adult kids now!) functions together. His Mother was just a dinner guest at my home for our eldest sons bday.

I believe when we are on the right path we know because things start falling into place and doors start opening. You are kinda stuck in a cross roads. Being in limbo is the worst. Once you start moving again you will be happier.


Me 52 H 44
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BD 12/11 H
split 8/12
OW moved in 12/12
OW gone for good 6/14
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Originally Posted By: Mozza
I'm trying to work, yet I have in the back of my head this running list of reasons why WAW should come back. It's just there. I'm an involved and loving father, hard-working and successful, not so bad looking, a good lover, I cook, I'm willing to learn, I'm a family man, I exercise, I have a large network of friends, I got reasonable taste. I'm not an alcoholic, a gambler, a violent or lazy man.

Reading the LBW around here complain about the jerk moves of their WAH is disheartening. They cheat, get drunk, obsess about their work, neglect their kids and sit on their a$$es. Yet they have these articulate, patient and mature women pining for them while my WAW sees me as part of a past that she doesn't want think about.

Because I criticized and neglected her, that's why. And why not. It's a fair point. She was "miserable" after all. Any reason is good enough, for the WAW has no justification to provide and none that could satisfy the LBH anyway. We're free to come and go from our M and that's a fact. It can be because of one too many criticism or one overcooked asparagus. As 25yearsmlc is fond of repeating, there's no point in torturing ourselves with "why??"

Hey, voice in my head, I'm talking to you.


I could have written this so many times over the past few months.

although in some ways i might feel better if it was because i once overcooked asparagus.

the important thing is that we recognise we can only change things from this point forward, and i always get the impression that if your W stopped to look she would see that in you.


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I often overcook Asparagus, especially on the grill. It gets rubbery but stringy and stuck in your teeth. I never liked vegetables, but I like them even less now that they've ruined my marriage.
________________________
Anyway, just the fact that we are on this board puts us in a different category. I know people wonder why I'm still in this after all that W has and continues to do to hurt me and the family. I had one friend say she was worried about my self esteem since I'm giving W benefit of the doubt all the time. I understand her point. However, I see that a most of us have a stable and high self esteem and understand the meaning of commitment and love and are willing to sacrifice a short duration in our lives to try and make things better in the future.

So when I'm down and feeling hopeless; I realize that sticking to my marriage is my decision which I can change at any point. I feel like a lot of us feel that our WAS are in a crisis and pushing away the folks that love them the most.

It was like the pastor said to me, we can't go through life comparing ourselves to other people and their decisions nor spend time fearing about how other's will feel when we are trying to do the right thing in life. Our time on the earth is short, so we should focus on what is right so when we are called to look back at our lives that we can be proud that we gave it everything we had for love.

Sorry for the religious post, but Mozza; you're an awesome person and you know that you're getting the short end of the stick. You're persevering in order to make a horrible situation the best it can be. As my mom has said to me (in classic motherly fashion) "MCS, many woman are praying everyday for someone like you. You're a good dad, a provider, a good person (add the rest of your paragraph here) The problem is that W became comfortable that everyone is like you. Unfortunately, she may realize that's not the case when its too late, but you can't be responsible for that"


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BD: 8/10/14
IDLY: 8/12/14
S: 8/13/14 (she left, I stayed w/ kids)
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Mozza go to the midlife Crisis forum and read the post at the top of the forum on detaching by job and cadet. It is a great informative post. I've asked them to post the thread over here too.


Me 52 H 44
T9 M 5
BD 12/11 H
split 8/12
OW moved in 12/12
OW gone for good 6/14
We get closer again 9/14
SD 13 Me 4 Grown





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I copied the posts from the MLC forum and put them on my thread. Definetly worth reading


Me 52 H 44
T9 M 5
BD 12/11 H
split 8/12
OW moved in 12/12
OW gone for good 6/14
We get closer again 9/14
SD 13 Me 4 Grown





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Thanks everyone for sharing your thoughts on dating. It's been on the mind of a few LBS around the 6-month mark, including MCS, Zues and jim0987. I find it a very good use of these boards to talk to other men who are thinking about this. None of my friends are recently separated like we are, so I don't get that perspective in real life. Of course, I also appreciate the input of women.

As I explore the reasons behind my reaction to my WAW's departure (standing long after ILYBINILWY), I decided to approach and flirt with women. Could it be that I want WAW back because she's the only woman-of-quality I believe I can have? Would she hold the comparison if I were to meet someone else that attracts me? I've read around here that seeking other women is a sign of insecurity, but it seems to me that wanting our WAW back can also be such as sign, even if we hide it behind principles. Or will I realize that I want her back not because of my insecurities but truly because of who she is and what we have? That I feel I can have many compatible women, but she is the one that I want?

Last week, when I had this good interaction with a woman who seemed interested and handed me a piece of paper on which I wrote my phone number (she never called - lesson: ask for her number next time!), it gave me a new perspective on my sitch. I was more detached. It happened the day before I met WAW for lunch and I think it helped me to stay cool. I'm still trying to figure out what that means.

I might come across as a womanizer here, but it would be a surprise to most people who know me. I'm facing my fears when reaching out to any woman. Maybe I'm playing with fire. I envision these things taking months, as I slowly build up confidence, learn from my experience, learn about me and how I related to women, what it means for my M, how I can assess my WAW more objectively as a potential partner, etc. But maybe I'll end up in bed with someone in a couple of days, caught at my own game and regretful.

GAL Report | I dropped off the kids Friday morning, so it's my week alone. Friday, I met with a newish friend at a café to chat and work on our laptops. In the evening, I went shopping with a friend who rarely shops and we had dinner in town. On the way back home, I decided to stop at a local bar. I was afraid of going alone, but they had some entertainment and I had a good time. I had some good interactions with the staff, including one who gave me her schedule and invited me back when she's there.

I don't know what I'll do for the rest of the week-end, and I like that.


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Mozza,
You don't come across as a womanizer on here. You wouldn't be DBing and you wouldn't be trying to improve yourself. No womanizer I know thinks they have to improve themselves! They just keep swinging until they get a hit and they don't even care if the woman has a wedding ring on.

I've read a lot of your posts and I find you are an awesome person.

Jbird


M 53
W 44
D25 D20 S22
PA 10/95
BD abt 2k EA
BD 9/2004 PA D'd 1/05/05
DB'd 9/2004-08 PA ends 02/2005
XW rehab 03/2005 piecing until OM3 June?/2005
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GAL Report | The dream: I spent Valentine's Day with Scarlett Johansson (watching Lucy on iTunes). Before that, I had cleaned the house and gone to a café to hang out. Oh and I bought a few bottles of alcohol (wine, port, rum), for when I have guests. Don't worry: I don't drink alone. Then went out for dinner and drinks, and didn't really meet anyone. Sunday was too quiet at home and it got my PMA down. I turned down an invitation from a couple of friends for dinner because I wanted to go out again. Went for dinner then drinks and didn't talk to anyone but felt good the whole time. Also, I'm really getting to know the various places in my neighborhood.

==================

WAW sent me a "random email" (funny video) on Friday and I didn't respond. It seems like her kids-related communications have become shorter since then. Also, she posted on Instagram a pic taken a competition where OM is. I sometimes wonder when they'll really go public and that's the closest they got, for what I know.

She texted me yesterday about her old boss getting divorced. This person is important because WAW got involved into a car accident with her years ago. WAW and her boss had switched cars and that of her boss rolled over. WAW helped to pull out her boss from the wreck and took her to the hospital. She's suffered brain damage and was never herself again, a woman with a PhD, an international career and two kids now unable to work. Her husband has been heroic for the last 5-6 years, but now he's calling it quit.

I feel I'm moving on. I haven't been on WAW's Facebook page since I met her about a dozen days ago. It's my longest stretch since the breakup. I just feel it's not worth it, despite the temptation. I'm less tortured that she's sleeping with OM. Also, I'm more interested in my future than in what she's doing. All this flirting is really interesting me, making me think about what would be next for me. The lack of contact is also helping me detach. Oh, it's not that I'm really detached, it's just that the intensity is lower. V day was painful, but not that bad. I've cried a couple of times Sunday, but I realize that the pain is not as intense as two or three months ago. I don't call my parents every day anymore. I'm starting to think that I really shouldn't talk about my S so much. I wake up without the pain almost every morning.

It's contradictory, but every time I realize I'm moving on a little, I imagine the opposite reaction from WAW. As her life is becoming less exciting and more normal, like what we had, I think that she might start missing our relationship. I still fear getting to a point where I don't want her and she wants me, but I'm no longer so certain it would be a bad thing.

Originally Posted By: Jbird
I've read a lot of your posts and I find you are an awesome person.

Thanks a lot, JBird. I was really touched by this.


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Hey Mozza

Im pleased to hear your geting on with your life and the pain diminishes.
Gives me hope knowing my pain to will fade over time.

Good luck to you whatever happens


Me:40 W:35
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Moved out and moved on

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Way to go with the GAL Mozza! The more you step out of your comfort zone the bigger your comfort zone gets.

Who knows what opportunities will open up for you. No one comes and knocks on someone's door. You have to do what you are doing and get out there.


Me 52 H 44
T9 M 5
BD 12/11 H
split 8/12
OW moved in 12/12
OW gone for good 6/14
We get closer again 9/14
SD 13 Me 4 Grown





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Detachment...

Thanks a lot, Karma for assembling these posts. I've re-read them all. I start to understand detachment, or at least I think I do, but I've a hard time applying it. I think I don't understand it fully because I don't see how can one love fully and be detached at the same time. I probably need to read on codependency. It also tells me that I still have tons to learn before I'm ready for a healthy relationship. Oh, the gift of time...

I should say too that I am feeling much more detached in the last two weeks. I'm not sure what snapped inside of me, but I've lost some of my interest in WAW. I think it has to do with the flirting, to be honest. It fits with my IC assessment that I'm in such a state of panic because I fear that my WAW is the only 10/10 woman that I can ever get. The only woman who attracts me completely and that also happens to be attracted by me. It's how I felt when we got together. I'm afraid of having to settle for a 6/10.

I've read this in No More Mr Nice Guy. It's a trait of the Nice guys:

Originally Posted By: No More Mr Nice Guy
Forming relationships with women who are angry, sick, depressive, compulsive, addicted, unfaithful, or otherwise unavailable.

Who is more unavailable to me than my WAW at the moment? She's been unfaithful in 2009 and I've forgiven her on the spot because I was so afraid of losing her and half of D6. Yet, here I am hoping for R with her. She's been clear in all her words and actions that she is unavailable for good. Sure, I have reasons to believe that she may change her mind but... in the meantime? What does it say about me as an emotionally healthy person that I find reasons to hang on to her, even so much time after she left me for someone else? The healthy attitude seems to be to take stock of her unavailability and to reassess solely if she makes herself available to me.

So what I want to build now is the sense that my W is not the only available partner for me, she's not even the only 10/10 woman for me. This is why I'm getting out there and meeting people. This is why I'm flirting and this is why I'd be open to go on a date. I wouldn't promise anything to a woman who's looking for a commitment, but I'm still far from that river and there's no bridge in sight. For now, I already get a lot of mileage out of getting a positive reaction from women that I find interesting.
______________________

GAL Report | I didn't have to work and I spent most of the day at home. I had lunch with a friend. I also interviewed a potential babysitter. Tonight, I'm going for dinner alone at a local restaurant. Looking forward to it.

Boundary report | WAW asked if I could pick up D3 from the daycare because she has a fever. I could have rearranged my schedule, like anyone, but so does she and it's her week, so I said no. A few months ago, I was overcome with anxiety by requests like this. Will she resent me? Will it make her unhelpful when I need her? Should I be with my kid? What will be the consequences? How would I feel for helping her out? This time, it was an easy decision that I did quickly and without consulting anyone: It's her week and I'm no longer her backup so that she can focus on work. One more consequence of her decision to S. She responded that she'd go and that was it. I'm happy I didn't pick up her phone call though and let it go to VM because I might have folded on the phone. It's a process...


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Detachment has helped me see my kids more clearly and to see how they hear and see me. That makes it easier to be more mindful in how I treat them and easier to be aware of their needs. Even if I can't meet them in the moment I can at least acknowledge them and make it known they're important to me.

It's also made it a lot easier to be patient. D11 really knows how to push my buttons and I used to engage every single time. Now I see it fir what it is and address it more strategically, so our household is a lot calmer. That's better for everyone.

That is the way that detachment can make relationships closer and more loving.


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Thanks a lot Maybell. Your post makes me wonder if this concept of detachment is the key to my sitch, not only how I go through S but how I got here. I was too critical of my W, I would be her chief adviser, I would be very involved in helping her, I felt responsible for all her problems. When she left, she said that she was running away from my influence, both positive and negative.

So what if I had been both in love and detached? I don't know, it still feels like I wouldn't have loved her as much. I feel like things would have been worse for her without my interventions. So I'm not out of the woods, but I feel like I might have an idea of where things - loving her so much and yet making her leave - might have clashed.

Also, looking around these boards, it seems to be that way with the part of DB that we can't understand intuitively.


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Originally Posted By: Mozza
I was too critical of my W, I would be her chief adviser, I would be very involved in helping her, I felt responsible for all her problems. When she left, she said that she was running away from my influence, both positive and negative.


Mozza,

These words rang true to me too. This is almost exactly how I see my sitch. My W said that she felt trapped and she became the person that I wanted her to be and not who she was. She followed that up later by saying that no one (parents, me, sister, friends) really know her except for a close circle of friends (OM & his GF.) I think this is a little bit of MLC alongside all of the other things going on.


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T: 15 M:11
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BD: 8/10/14
IDLY: 8/12/14
S: 8/13/14 (she left, I stayed w/ kids)
D Mentioned: 10/15/14
Confronted about OM: 10/15/14
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She filed: 8/15 (not final)
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Originally Posted By: Mozza
“As children, Nice Guys did not get their needs met in timely, judicious ways. Some were neglected, some were used, some were abused, some were abandoned. All grew up believing that it was a bad or dangerous thing for them to have needs. All grew up convinced that if they were going to have anything in life, it would be up to them.

Consequently, Nice Guys are terrible receivers. They are terrified of asking for help. They are completely miserable when others try to give to them. They have difficulty delegating to others.

Because they believe they have to do it all themselves, Nice Guys rarely live up to their full potential.”


Wow. Just wow. Thanks for sharing this on Maybell's thread.


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Mza

Detachment means not attaching to an outcome that is always outside of your control. V makes that work for her in simplicity.

This is different to 'unattached' , I think there may be confusion. We are keeping love, care of the person, but not concerned if they love or care for us as an exchange for our love and care.

V tries to be a loving caring W who projects love and care (unstated) but whether H loves and cares back is detached. I do what I do because it is the thing that helps V the most. If V wants the reverse then she has to be loveable, the best V she can be. But V is detached from H loving her, she has no say in that. V is loving as far as she can be without expectation. V is a work in progress and whether H loves V, wants to be with V is for H to know.

I have let go of H but I still love him, DB, and want an R with a H who wants an R with me. Is it important, yes indeed.

How do we do this? Simple go GAL. H is not the only show in town, Shaun the Sheep is good value too.

V

Last edited by Vanilla; 02/18/15 11:45 PM.

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V....you sumed that up very well. I think that will more clearly help many that don't reaal "get" what detachemnt is.

Mozza.....you will attract the right person when the time is right. Getting yourself healthy first is a great goal.


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V just turned the light bulb on for me! I equated detachment with being unattached, I have hope I can do this now.

Jbird


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Thanks a lot everyone. I'm really glad that this discussion is taking place here. I realize how important it is for me to eventually understand detachment. This certainly helps my thinking, even though there's no light bulb yet. But it's ok, patience is key with those things and understanding will come eventually. It's already a big step for me to have understood that detachment is not just a way to cry less right now, it's about being a better partner in a healthy relationship.

IC Report | Again, a productive session. We talked about what I called courage and what he called audacity: getting out of your comfort zone to get what you need. I've done it by flirting a little, but it also applies to career, friendship and all. It's not easy for a Nice Guy who's afraid of expressing and meeting his needs. IC acknowledged that what I'm doing now is difficult and that few people do it. In the last two sessions, I got the feeling that he sees my S as a real breakthrough for me, one that few people have. I increasingly see the value of the psychoanalytic approach. It may be slow, but it scrapes really deep. NMMNG fits almost perfectly with what my IC tells me.

GAL Report | Last night, I had dinner at the bar of a restaurant, sitting next to a famous songwriter who's very well-liked in my family. I never worked up the courage to talk to him beyond "hello" even though we were both on our cell phones and he even moved at some point to sit next to me. I'm disappointed in me and puzzled as to why my fear of rejection is so strong (see recent chapter on flirting). I wanted to have a "mature" discussion with him, about, say, his favorite book. In fact, I crave such discussions right now. I guess it's the connection that I miss. Today: work, IC, badminton and dinner at a local restaurant. I had a drink instead of a beer, once again to experiment. Back home, I tried to sing "Always on my mind" on my acoustic guitar, but couldn't finish it. LBH: avoid this song.

Boundary Report | D3 was still sick and WAW asked again if I could help. This time was harder and it took me an hour to respond, but I said I already had deadlines and appointments. I do, even if they would be rearranged if it were my week. I just don't know if taking care of D3 for her is good co-parenting or is just taking on me the consequences of S. I know if it were my week I wouldn't ask her to help. WAW ended up dropping D3 at daycare before lunch and giving me an update, the longest text exchange we've had in weeks. She ended up with "Well then, later M" and just the fact that she used my initial had me welled up. It felt so tender, even if it probably wasn't mean to be. And I crave her tenderness so much... I have for long before BD.

Reading this update: Wow, am I all over the map. I feel more detached, I flirt, I gather strength yet I am touched by a single letter in a text message from WAW. I try to build up the courage to meet my needs, yet I can't talk to a guy sitting next to me. It's ok... it's ok... I have the gift of time.


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Mozza,
Just a couple tips for striking up a conversation with someone that works great for me. I observe something about them that I like, then I compliment them on it. It works everywhere I go. A longtime ago I worked for a sales manager who taught me to look at decals on cars or a logo on a cap, then ask them a question relating to there interest.

Most people love compliments and enjoy answering questions about something they like.

I love East Indian cuisine and even cook it at home weekly. If I have a chance to talk to someone that is Indian or Pakistani I tell them I love their cuisine. I have not met a person that was unwilling to talk to me about their food. Usually you can see their eyes light up and they smile with pride. Once the ice is broken the conversation flourishes.

Jbird


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Originally Posted By: Jbird
V just turned the light bulb on for me! I equated detachment with being unattached, I have hope I can do this now.

Jbird


J sometimes things are expressed in a way that flips the switch. Once that happens we are off and running until the next 'stuck' point. That is why I believe it is important to post on each other's threads.

We supporters often observe that a release enables progress. It is delightful so I am happy for you that the light went on.

V


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What an awful day. A throwback to one month after BD.

D3 was sick for a third day in a row and I accepted to take care of her for the day. My plans had been cancelled anyway. I watched a movie with her. She was very affectionate and told me several times how much she loved me and I reciprocated. We really missed each other, no pretending. That was the nice part of the day.

At drop-off, I was short and polite in my interaction with WAW. I didn't invite her in despite the cold as she was on her way to work. We talked for a minute about D3 and she slipped in there that she was feeling better since she started doing sports. Good for her. She's been telling me that things aren't that bad ever since the end of our lunch two weeks ago. Believe none of what they say?

Seeing her in person is difficult because everything is so familiar. My heart says "Oh my, there you are!" I recognize her face, her clothes, her voice, her shape, her personality... And then I remember that there's someone else who feels the same way about her and that she loves him back. I'm just back in high school where the girl I love doesn't love me back. I clung to these unavailable girls for months, in vain, and now I'm doing it again.

Well for 3-4 hours after that, I wouldn't stop crying. It wasn't loud and I could hide it from D3, but it wouldn't stop. I had been reminded of what I had lost and it felt like she's the one that I want. She's the one that I married until death do us apart, with whom I had two kids and I just can't let go even after she rejected me so clearly. Finally, when D3 went to sleep, I could distract myself a little more.

Pick-up was shorter, but after it I was back in crisis mode. I had to call my parents to calm down. I went to a public event that forced me to hide my emotions and to engage. On the way back, I couldn't call anyone so I cried. I stopped at a restaurant and nearly cried while eating. I made it home and I cried like you'd told me my family had just died in a plane crash. Full blown crisis. Really?! Five months later? I calmed down by watching TV.

GAL Report | The public event was an invitation-only brainstorming on something related to my field, so I was flattered to be invited. For practice, I engaged a pretty woman who was next to me at the end of the event. I survived. By the way, thanks a lot JBird for your tips. I have them in mind.

Detachment Report | Haha! Just kidding.


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Mozza, whenever I have/had one of those super emotional days, I found it was a transition to a new level of acceptance and detachment. Eventually I learned to accept them when they came and soon they stopped happening. The last 3-4, if I found a quiet place and said, "ok, it's safe to cry now," within about 20 seconds the need to cry would be gone and I'd feel a huge urge to go do something better.

You're doing so well. I'm glad you got time with your D3. Hope she feels better. Hang in there.


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Mozza,

Hang in there, it's okay to cry, this is hard and gut wrenching at times! Give yourself a pat on the back for maintaining your emotions in check around her.

Tomorrow will be a better day!

Jbird


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Mozz, I'm so sorry you had a tough day. It takes me by surprise sometimes and I think - well, I'm X months on here. Why is this happening?

It is just tough sometimes and we all get super emotional days - even a while after the event. And fact is, you're still very much going through it. It's far better to really cry and get it all out. Now I'd be concerned if you'd been like that every single day since BD - but to have a tearful meltdown every now and then is perfectly normal and healthy.

You may well find that you feel much calmer having cried so much. You're doing really well Mozza ((()))


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Originally Posted By: Maybell
Mozza, whenever I have/had one of those super emotional days, I found it was a transition to a new level of acceptance and detachment. Eventually I learned to accept them when they came and soon they stopped happening. The last 3-4, if I found a quiet place and said, "ok, it's safe to cry now," within about 20 seconds the need to cry would be gone and I'd feel a huge urge to go do something better.

You're doing so well. I'm glad you got time with your D3. Hope she feels better. Hang in there.
ive had the exact same experience as Maybell. And Moz, I still have bad days every so often, and I'm 2 months ahead of you and pretty detached. Keep walking forward, embrace the pain when it comes, then let it go


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Mozza, so sorry you had a crappy day =/ They just seem to happen don't they? Like were walking along fine and all of a sudden BAM I see a candy bar that happens to be her favorite and then the water works come (I'm not even joking). What I will say is that I am so impressed with how you handled it. You didnt sit at home like you probably wanted. You forced yourself to go out, to go to a public event (congrats on the invite) and stop the emotions. This is a HUGE step. Unfortunately right now, I'm more of in the...i wanna go home and ill stay in the safety of my bat cave mode. So again, awesome that you forced yourself to go out.

Like everyones said, its ok to cry and break down every now and then. Sometimes, you just need to let it all out (privately of course).

What you wrote about seeing your W and how you felt "oh there you are!" really tugged on my heart strings, pretty sad comments there. But I hope you are having a better day today, and D3 is feeling better!


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The difference Mozza is you are probably having less of these kinds of days than you were five months ago. It's just like when my Mum and Dad passed away. At first I was upset and cried a lot. The first year was the hardest. Now I can look back and not get emotional but every once and a while I will tear up. It's hard to lose someone you still love. Be gentle with yourself


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Mozza,

Sorry for the day. I had ine of those too last week, I was in the shower and it all just hit me, the fact that I just don't know what to do right now, wher I need to go, am I holding onto something I shouldnt be, my loneliness, Etc. I started crying and yelling out loud just to let it all out for about 15 minutes. It happens.

For me, I personally try to reach down deep to see why I'm struggling. Last week, as we were all talking here, I was thinking about what my timeline was to 'move on' to try and see if I was ready. As you, I'm lonely and crave affection and intimacy. I think my emotional release was my subconscious telling me that I'm not ready for that yet. I talked to my parents and some other folks and they all said they same thing, "it's not time to give up MCS, things are progressing a little and you want to try and push it to your timeline"

Anyway, that's just me. Hope today is better and hope D3 is feeling better, everyone here in my house is sick right now too.


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Just look at that: I came here last night feeling down and seven (7!) amazing people took the time to pick me up. Where else would I find a community of people who just get what I'm going through? Thank you so much.

Yes, the day was much better. In fact, yesterday made me realize how far I'd come over the last five months. Those days were my daily bread back then. Now, I'm still sad and distracted by the sitch, but I'm much more detached from it. The pain is duller already. I see that the trend is as good as expected and that eventually I will reach this future where I'm truly happy. It also made very clear that WAW is my kryptonite. With one letter or one minute, she can ruin hours or an entire day. NC is really my only chance to work on myself at the moment.

Oh and D3 is ok now. It was just a fever and it made her cuddlier. I'm afraid I enjoy that! Bad dad...

GAL Report | Highlight of the day was a concert of one of my favorite bands in a large venue, with a friend of 20 years that I don't see enough. Those moments are rare and precious in a lifetime.

___________________

Maybell | Thanks, I agree that it's good to just give myself permission to cry it out. I look forward to the moment where it takes only 20 seconds...

JBird | Thanks for noticing that I was in control in front of WAW. I'm fairly good at that, but it helps that I keep everything short. At lunch a couple of weeks ago, my eyes welled up.

Toots | Thanks Toots. Thankfully, I'm not like that every day... Strangely, I feel very little relief from crying. It's like a river: if I hold it, it builds up a reservoir that's released dramatically, but if I let it flow, it doesn't empty either.

Card29 | Thanks. As you know, I'm following your sitch closely because you're a bit ahead and, mostly, it never fails to deliver. Like: a 10-second kiss?! That, some serious kissing. I envy you. My last kiss with my WAW was a peck on the lips on the doorstep.

TLEE86 | I know exactly what you mean about the candy bar. I've told my friends that they can't avoid the triggers. It can be a word, it can be the light of day, it can be a smell. And thanks for the support for my GAL in the times of cholera! It does make me feel better that I've done it, even if it was difficult. I've more to say on your sitch and I'll stop by your thread.

Karma12 | You're right: those days are few and far in between. As your experience shows, I expect some flashbacks to last much longer, especially as we stay in touch for the kids. Oh well.

MCS | Woah, that shower scene was powerful. I don't know why, but I tend to cry in the shower too, even when the rest of the day was ok. Water? Ritual? Vulnerability? Nakedness? It's inspiring for me that you admit to craving "affection and intimacy" because it's something that's still hard for me to word like this, despite my talks of insecurity, flirting and dating. I prefer to project and think of myself as someone who doesn't have those "needs" (how primal!), but NMMNG and my IC make me realize that it's ok to be myself without shame.

Well then, let me say one more embarrassing thing on a related topic: I now have mixed feelings about my naked body. On the one hand, I've started working out and it has noticeably improved, so I have some pride. On the other hand, it feels... humiliated. It's there, in functioning order yet unused and abandoned for greener pastures. The fact that OM is young, handsome and athletic plays into that, I'm sure. Maybe it taps into some primal instinct but I do feel a fair amount of shame and humiliation about it. Like a gorilla who just stands there, shocked, after his female was stolen by an alpha male. I know, it sounds ridiculous...


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Mozza,

I'm glad you posted and today was a better day!

During my first DB stent, my IC taught me some methods of stopping thoughts of doubt about my LM abilities or thoughts of OM with W or other self discriminating thoughts I might have. One that worked for me was to visualize a stop sign, then force myself to think good thoughts about myself, then change what I'm doing. Your IC should have some methods to help you with this.

It is rarely about being young, athletic and handsome that causes a WAW. If that was the case movie stars and professional athletes would never have a WAW. That's not to say, don't get in the best shape you can, because that is healthy and will increase your self-esteem.

Keep working on yourself as you have been and don't let yourself think negative thoughts.


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Thanks JBird for your support. I can reason that it's not about youth and appearances, but my sitch makes it very difficult to internalize it. At the same time, I don't want to overlook my role in keeping the door wide open for OM. Being critical like I was of my W is one of the top reasons for S. This is what WAW was running from.

________________

D3 jumped in my bed this morning and we cuddled for a good 15 minutes. She was immobile, staring at the ceiling. I was on the side, cuddling her like John with Yoko. At some point she said "I'd like you to be in mommy's bed". I teared up and she asked what was going on; I pretended to be coughing. "I know. Me too" is what I wanted to say. At the beginning of the sitch, the kids took really well to the S, but now they are starting to show more unease and confusion, even though they are very accepting.

GAL Report | I made a spontaneous decision this morning to go see my parents with D6 and D3. We spent the day there. They played together while I napped and read, which is not the greatest GAL for me, I agree. But the girls were in heaven.

Flirting report | Last night, when the metro doors opened, I locked eyes for like 3 seconds with this breathtakingly gorgeous girl. It was part of "practice" to hold her gaze because usually I would just have been intimidated and pretended I barely saw her (well, and I was in a relationship...). We continued to make eye contact a few times through the next 4-5 stations until she got off. I was thinking that I should have the balls to just walk up to her, say I couldn't help but notice her and that I'd be happy to go for a coffee, ask for her number, etc. Yet, all I could do was stand there and think of how impossible it was for me to move a muscle in that direction. In my head, my main hypothesis was that she was looking back at me because she thought I was a creep, not because she was interested, which is of course part of my problem. This paralyzing fear of meeting new people who attract me, or my thinking that it can't be mutual, is part of why I'm constantly going back to WAW for my emotional needs, long after she told me she didn't love me enough anymore and left me for OM.

Detachment Report | I had a talk with my mom tonight -- more like she listened to me. I told her how unhealthy it was for me to long for someone who left me, that I needed to build the tools to feel less dependent on WAW for my emotional needs. I talked to her about the cheeseless tunnels, i.e. going down the same route long after there's no more cheese. My cheeseless tunnel is WAW. It was a source of affection, sex, commitment, intimacy, etc. Now that the source has dried up, that the door is closed, I keep going there hoping for the same cheese. The fact is, there is plenty of cheese elsewhere. I just gotta gather the courage to try those different routes.

I also told my mom that it probably wouldn't be a good idea to reconcile with WAW, even if she wanted to. There are so many things she would have to change, that are core to her personality, for me to trust her with my love again. She needs to learn that happiness comes from within and this is antithesis to all that she is. She'd have to recognize that love is work and is a choice, which is the opposite of how she sees it. She'd have to drop the flight reflex, which is a constant in so many spheres of her life. Then again, how will I know in time that the next person does not have the same flaws? Or others?


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Everyone has flaws Mozza. It's not perfection we seek. What we want to not do is move on to a new partner with the same issues. Working on ourselves is the way to prevent that. Learning why you attracted someone like your wife into your life and what red flags you may have initially ignored.

Get to know yourself. What are your core values? What are the things you can compromise on and what are the things you cannot. Everyone puts there best foot forward at the beginning. There are things to look for though. Eg. What is there past relationship history? Have they had many short term relationships or have they had long committed relationships. Do they have friendships that are long lasting? How about their family - are they close? Do they have a job? Are they able to manage money? Do they live in a place that they can afford and is it clean or messy? Are they active and do they care about their health? Are they reliable? Do they show up when they say they will and on time? There are a lot of little things that give us clues to someone's true character.


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Nicely said, Karma, and very timely. Thanks.


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Hi Mozza, I just wanted to say that I get what you are saying about feeling a bit insecure about your body/appearance. I am going through this as well and I think we probably all experience it at one time or another. But having your S leave you for a younger hotter person doesn't help in that regard.

Of course beauty is more than skin deep and is in the eye of the beholder and all that jazz. But it can still be irritating I know. I have no words of comfort other than empathy.

Funny, I have also been trying to hold the gaze of the opposite sex and realized I hadn't done it in a long time out of shyness and as you said I was in a relationship. Funny how many attractive people will stare back at you with interest and even come approach you! It's quite thrilling! Just to feel you "still got it" is enough!

Sounds like you are doing very well. Keep up the good attitude!
Hugs, Lisa

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Originally Posted By: Mozza



I also told my mom that it probably wouldn't be a good idea to reconcile with WAW, even if she wanted to. There are so many things she would have to change, that are core to her personality, for me to trust her with my love again. She needs to learn that happiness comes from within and this is antithesis to all that she is. She'd have to recognize that love is work and is a choice, which is the opposite of how she sees it. She'd have to drop the flight reflex, which is a constant in so many spheres of her life. Then again, how will I know in time that the next person does not have the same flaws? Or others?


Mozza,

I understand this sentance, as I've had the same conversations about my sitch. However, I've looked at this from a different angle. First, look at the growth that just a few months ago, we would do anything to get our wives back, even with all of the flaws and issues that would just delay the inevitable. Second, this statement shows detachment. As many have said WAS see everything wrong in the R and then over time see what was right. LBS see everything right and then start to see what was wrong. I'm in the same place, too. Then the other thing is that I agree you shouldn't want to reconcile with your W as she is behaving right now, but you've identified what she would need to change to reconcile. I may have read into it, but I think as you said it here that your shouldn't reconcile gave me a sense of finality, I think it's more that you wouldn't reconcile right now.

Lastly, Since I agree with all of this that you have said about my sitch also; I personally see that this is where I hand my sitch off to God. I pray a lot that his hand would come down and guide her back to the path that I think he has for her, included in this were the flaws in her personality that I saw over the years, but felt she was able to manage. I actually feel like there has to be a miracle because some of these things are so deeply ingrained into her personality. I know those would have to change for this to work and through DB, we are already changing our flaws. I realize that there is nothing I can do to force that on her. I also feel that if this is the path that she chooses and it's meant to be this way, I pray that He will give me the sign that it's time for me to move on. Not sure if/when that would be, but everytime I think I'm there, something happens that shows me that I'm not there yet.

I know this crosses over to the religious aspect, but Have you felt any of that?


M:36 W:37
T: 15 M:11
S6 D5
BD: 8/10/14
IDLY: 8/12/14
S: 8/13/14 (she left, I stayed w/ kids)
D Mentioned: 10/15/14
Confronted about OM: 10/15/14
EA: ~4/13 PA: ~10/13
She filed: 8/15 (not final)
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Mozza? That was you on the Metro??


T 13 M 7
Me 48 H 46
SS 15
BD 7.14 PA
D final 5.16 (H filed)

We receive & we lose, and must try to achieve gratitude & embrace with whole hearts whatever of life that remains after the losses - Dubus
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Ha Ha Toots that is a good one!


M 53
W 44
D25 D20 S22
PA 10/95
BD abt 2k EA
BD 9/2004 PA D'd 1/05/05
DB'd 9/2004-08 PA ends 02/2005
XW rehab 03/2005 piecing until OM3 June?/2005
Remarried 12/28/07
BD 12/18/14
Sep living together
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Hi Mozza,

Glad your feeling better after a tough couple of days (sorry this is a little late on that front). They happen but they are part of learning to accept all this

The fact you can put anything in a 'detachment report' is really good progress. I thought this wa a really important but mainly because i'm feeling this a lot at the moment

Originally Posted By: Mozza

I told her how unhealthy it was for me to long for someone who left me.


I want to try and figure out what does healthy look like for me and more importantly what does a healthy 'relationship' with my STBXW look like from here on out (assuming no reconciliation)

As for the changes, she might have a lot to do but it can happen, just look at the change some of the LBS' make after BD. I know i have a lot to do but I also know some changes were virtually overnight and 5 months later they seem to be sticking.

Life is all about incentives.


Both mid 30s, 2 young kids
BD 7sep14
XW moved on long ago, now living with OM1
D paperwork in progress
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Moz, there are probably very few of us DBers that don't, at one point or another in this process, question their attractiveness. I'm doing it right now, myself. But I believe that if we keep DBing, someday, this insecurity will be a thing of the past. Try to become the best Mozza you can be, and you will realize that there are countless people in this world that will cherish who that is.

As far as worrying about a future spouse having issues...don't. To start with, you won't find perfection. And I believe if you are true to yourself, you don't try to put on a fake facade (which MNG's typically do), then whoever you fall in love with will love YOU, not your act.

Karma has some great tips for things to look for in a person. But even so, it's hard to really know how someone is going to react if a R or M breaks down. I think every single one of us is capable of having an A under the right circumstances. More important for you, right now, is to continue to learn more about what healthy and unhealthy R's/M's look like. That way, in the future, you will be able to resolve problems long before the **** hits the fan. In my case, if I could do it all over again, I would definitely marry WAW again. But I would have been alarmed years ago at some of my behavior and our interactions. At the time, I thought it was normal, just the way it is, just a phase, etc. If I was put in the same positions again, I believe I could address them, and in healthy, appropriate ways.

As an example, about 6 months ago, my uncle (who had reecently married my blood-related aunt) was telling some of us about quirks in their new marriage. Everyone else was just laughing at the antics. And before, I would have, too. With my new knowledge, I knew they were serious problems (lots of lying, hiding things from each other, trying to continue pretending to be who they were pretending to be when they were dating the last 2-3 years, etc.). They are already divorced. Before, I would have laughed at the stories then been shocked at the final result. Now, I was deeply concerned by what I heard, then not surprised at all to learn of their split.

Bottom line: Keep DBing, and you will tackle or avoid many of the things that have you anxious right now.


Okay Moz, promise me something - at some point, when you feel an opportunity to flirt with a girl, especially somewhere like a train where you aren't going to see the same people every day, DO IT. And don't just friend-zone flirt. Make some casual conversation, but eventually be direct and ask for an e-mail address, name, phone number, twitter handle, whatever. Just be bold! What's the worst thing that will happen? She won't give it to you? Who cares??

***cheesy quote alert***

You miss 100% of the shots you don't take. -Gretzky

And if you miss a shot, forget it, you didn't want that shot anyway. smile -Card29


Me 38, WAW 30
D11 (former marriage)
S2
T 8 years
M 3 years
BD 8/20/23
S 8/20/23
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Mza

The external glamour of the body will not match the joy that shines from the internal strength of a loving heart.

I believe that the love of self will in the long run cause us to make the body the best it can be for the age we are. How lovely to be like a child revelling in our physicality.

That is attractive.

V


Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose.
V 64, WAW


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Body image | Thanks a lot to all of you for your support. I was not very clear. I don't have body image issues: in fact, I believe I've never looked that good. I've had such comments in real life. Someone who didn't know me even gave me a 8/10 the other day, which is flabbergasting for me who's been giving myself a 5 in a tailored suit. It's more of an issue of being good, but not good enough. Think of Benedict Cumberbatch at the Oscars last night: how does he feel after Eddie Redmayne snatched the Oscar? Certainly not ugly and untalented, but there's something about going to the after-Oscar party as the "loser" of his category. Sure sure, he's talented and offered a remarkable performance but... he lost. I'm sure he'll have some issues to resolve when next appearing on a set, even if he was just told he's among the top 5 in the world. So WAW is the woman I want, but this OM came and stole her. I feel... castrated, I guess. I'm wondering if other LBS feel this too. Maybe it's something for my Freudian IC.

Flirting report | It's my week with the kids, so I'm not really out there. I had two thoughts that gave me confidence. The first is that not everyone has the same taste, so this "breathtakingly gorgeous girl" (aka Toots) that I saw on the metro might look plain to someone else (but not Toots). This means I shouldn't assume that everyone that attracts me can have anyone. Second, beautiful people apparently struggle too because people are intimidated by them. My IC told me of female clients of his who are off the scale of 10 who complain that no one goes to talk to them. I volunteer to take them out of their misery! All of this makes me sound superficial, but it's in part because I'm not really looking for Mrs Right at the moment.

For others juggling with the dating question, head over Tarheel's thread to read about his experience of hooking up for the first time 1.5 year after his WAW left him.

Detachment report | Wow, I almost forgot to mention: today would have been our 10-year anniversary (of the relationship). How's that for detachment? I did think about it today and got sad a couple of times, but not in crisis mode. Also, anyone noticed that I don't talk about my WAW's actions and what they mean for R? She's cut down on her own communications in the last 10 days, even for the kids. It helps me a lot.
____________________________

Karma 12 | I like your list of early signs to look out for, specially the friendships. I was always surprised that WAW had so few long term friendships while I probably have 10 close, long term friends. At 29, when I met my WAW, I thought I was much more mature about what I was looking for, but I was still a fool. I ignored plenty of red flags, including very obvious ones about her flight reflex and romantic expectations. I probably am still a fool. It seems like a lifetime is not enough to learn to be good at relationships.

Toots | ROFL. Well now you have to tell me: would you have given me your phone number??

Card29 | I'm impressed that you know you would marry your WAW again. Right now, I highly doubt that I would do the same thing. I see my faults, but I doubt that a better me would have been able to live up to WAW's expectations. She has issues of her own that are not related to me. I really like your uncle and aunt's story. Much like you, I have a completely new outlook on relationships and take red flags much more seriously because I now know that D can happen.

Thanks for the push to talk to women! You're right about gathering the courage in settings where I'll never meet the same people again. I have (another) hangup about being seen flirting, probably because it is an acknowledgement of my needs. It feels very humiliating to me, like people now know what I want and will tease me about it or just revel in my failure. So in the metro, I remember looking around at the people and wondering what they'd think if I walked up to that girl. I had ready made thoughts for some of them and they were all judgmental or mocking. Come to think of it, they could also have been impressed to see a guy with the balls to do this. I would have been very jealous to see another guy do it and would probably have assumed that he's confident and successful with women.

MCS | Yes, this is just where I am right now. It's even mostly where my head is, but my heart still wants WAW over anyone else. But I've convinced myself that we can never know the future, so of course my feelings might change at any point. As for handing my sitch over to God, you are right that I'm not a religious person. I believe that time will tell and I've gotten much better at handling uncertainty. There's no need to know or act today. Everything is going according to plan and I'm better today than I was yesterday, so all will be well in the end.

jim0987 | You're right, changes can happen. You caught me thinking of the future, thinking of WAW. Much like you, I would say, I tend to wonder if there's any point in considering WAW as an option for the future. I would do better to let it rest and focus on me. And by the way, I completely agree with "life is all about incentives". And when our WAW will want something, their actions will align. Let's be our best selves et cetera, et cetera...

Vanilla | Absolutely. I feel like all this work that I'm doing on my body is for me. In fact, I rarely (but not never) think of what WAW would think about it.


M39 D6 D3 (at S)
S 2014-09
D 2016-09

"You can't start a fire sitting around, crying over a broken heart" - Bruce Springsteen.
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So WAW is the woman I want, but this OM came and stole her. I feel... castrated, I guess. I'm wondering if other LBS feel this too.

Of course we do. (Even us girls, who technically can't be "castrated.")


M: 40 H: 44
Married 14 years
S11 & D6; D20 & D19 from previous M
2BDs/PAs, 8 years apart
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Some of the most beautiful talented women of my generation have WAH who left them for OWs who are even more beautiful or even not. Fiona Fullerton, Jane Seymour, Nicole Kidman, Jennifer Aniston and Princess Diana. They are not losers, far from it, these losers have surpassed any commercial success of their H.

I doubt Cumberbatch thinks of himself as a loser either, he will win next time. It is only opinion. Beside Speilbergs films never won, the most commercially successful films of all time. It is only one measure, as superficial as a Facebook like.

There will always be someone more beautiful, handsome, richer, more talented and winning more accolades. This little ugly fat woman who is V, laid low by illness and steroids, is finding it hard to turn it around. It takes great effort, time and in V case a great trainer. Despondent, second best? Everything I read in all the books says if you want to be back with your SO, be the best you can be, be beautiful, handsome, fit and above all be thin. Be the winner, work hard, be sexy. In truth be all you can be. For most of us with ordinary flaws, with the usual set of problems it is enough just to get through each day. Each day as one day at a time. Mza, you are extraordinary, just as you are, the man you are becoming inside.

You may feel a loser but you are a winner.

V


Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose.
V 64, WAW


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"Toots | ROFL. Well now you have to tell me: would you have given me your phone number??"

Absolutely Mozza! I was just reaching for my pen when you got off at your stop - darn it!


T 13 M 7
Me 48 H 46
SS 15
BD 7.14 PA
D final 5.16 (H filed)

We receive & we lose, and must try to achieve gratitude & embrace with whole hearts whatever of life that remains after the losses - Dubus
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Mozza I agree with V. My ex was intimidated by me in some ways. He used to say things like " everyone loves you". For someone with a lower sense of self they may initially be attracted to a strong attractive person but then feel threatened. I was a wife he should have been proud of and instead he resented my friendships and relationships with family. Not to sound vain but I know I was prettier than his AP. It has more to do with their low sense of self than anything to do with you.


Me 52 H 44
T9 M 5
BD 12/11 H
split 8/12
OW moved in 12/12
OW gone for good 6/14
We get closer again 9/14
SD 13 Me 4 Grown





Accept what is...let go of what was and have faith in what will be.
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Hi Mozza, I just wanted to drop by and thank you for your continued support and interest in my sitch, the book recommendations and sound advice you've given. I really do appreciate it.

Regarding the posts about body image, I agree that most often we see ourselves as being less than we would hope, particularly after something like our sitch's happens (it's hardly a confidence booster!!).

It's all subjective though. One of my friends is around 20 stone and not what I would think of as good looking and yet his W could be on the catwalk. It's all down to his personality and confidence I suppose but it just goes to show that you never really know what the opposite sex see (or even more importantly..think!).

I do know that there's someone out there for all of us. Most of us thought we'd found them already. Maybe we did and it'll either work out or it wont OR maybe our sitch's were meant to happen to us so we could grow into the people we were always meant to be and find the REAL right person for us?

So WAW is the woman I want, but this OM came and stole her. I feel... castrated, I guess. I'm wondering if other LBS feel this too. I guess most of us feel the same way. You know my sitch on OM, so if I substitute "OM" for "Alien" that works for me.]

You're a great guy Mozza and I wish you all the best.

Barry.


Me 40 W 38
T 23 M 21
S21 S19 D16 S14
BD 19/12/2014
D mentioned 27/2/2015.
I filed 08/04/2015, D Absolute 04/11/2015
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