Devotion To A Dream

[phunguy]

Thanks to everyone here for sharing their experiences and knowledge. I am forever grateful! I typed a long response to Sandi's response and I'm on my phone and I lost it somehow when my phone rang.

Old thread appears locked now.
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2534254&page=11

Woke up nervous. I am scared for today. I do not know what to expect from her. I will require complete transparency and proof of the end. I know she has not done this yet based on the answer yesterday. If she thinks she can just come here and all is well then she is in for a rude awakening. She can no longer stay here. This is going to be a major point of contention for her. I will insist she leave. But obviously I cannot make her go. I need to figure out how to accomplish this in a way that she will agree and do it. I think I may need to take the kids to my parents.

[phunguy]

A good run clears the mind nicely. I sometimes, like today, think about Forrest Gump, today would just be a good day to keep running and running and running... But life's problems are faster than the speed of light and I've yet to break that personal record, yet. Dropped the kids off by mom n dads and now I have to figure out something to do before W shows up I suppose I'll do something outside its a nice day. Too nice to be inside with myself.

[sandi2]

I will require complete transparency and proof of the end. I know she has not done this yet based on the answer yesterday.

I agree that there needs to be a transparency plan, if she stays under the same roof with you. I don't think it will do any good to request proof, b/c she would do like she did yesterday and supply you with an agenda and phone pictures. However, that would not actually prove she was in NC with OM.

I think she will waltz into the house and try to act as if everything is fine/normal. unless you bring it up, I don't think she will. But once you do say something, then she will either brush it off as if she took care of it or she will be angered by something you say. She may still be ticked over the kids. And if she comes home to find out you've taken the kids to their grandparents, she'll blow a fuse. Do not be afraid of her anger.

I believe it is very important that the WW wonders what her LBH may be thinking, or what he may do. It is important that he's running the ship and not waiting to see what she does.

I am not trying to get you into D court, but help you save your M. This week is going to be the most crucial, and your actions will determine how your WW will feel about you.

Remember this, it is better to have weeks or months of her strong anger & dislike for you, in order to regain the MR you want to have again. It is better to endure a temporary time of her wrath rather than live in a state where she plays you for a fool and continues to disrespect you. You have to be calm and use tough love with a WW.

Never underestimate a WAW in an A.

[phunguy]

Thanks Sandi,

In a weird way the old me feels like he's coming back. Which is even odd to think. The old me? LOL that is the PhunGuy! This pain has brought me back from the misery I've been living. Yes I still want to save this dream. Yes I will endure whatever she may hurl at me today. I'm finding peace in this hell for some reason as tough as it is with my world on fire it seems my prayers for clarity and peace are being answered.

I expect her to be very upset when she comes home to see the kids not here and I do not expect to resolve much today my plan is to get her talking and listen. I am going to provide nothing in terms of my thoughts other than I want the A to end and move forward from today.

[Sotto]

I agree it pays to take a firm line at the outset. You may want to think about something like:

I'm not willing for you to remain here if you are disrespecting our M and our family by conducting a R with someone else. It's your choice what you do, but if you want to remain involved with OM, you'll have to leave this house today. I will be staying here with the kids. And you have 10 minutes to decide.

I'm not a vet and haven't been in this situation - so don't treat this as 'expert' advice....have you seen any suitable scripts on the site? Starsky's normally good for this kind of thing of course.

Just a tip, when my H was having an A and I was suspicious. He'd get cross with me for being suspicious and paranoid. Said I had to stop with all that and I should move on (from the discovered EA that he said ended, but had turned into a PA.) He made me really doubt myself at the time - no more of that now for me of course!

Family leadership - your W may not like it at all, but I think it's what your sitch needs! And keep very calm and very strong.

[sandi2]

Don't have a long drawn out discussion. Keep it short and simple. If she tries to twist it around about the kids, your faults, etc., stay on course. Do not get side tracked and get off on other topics (which a WAW can do quite easily). Tell her that is another conversation at another time. Right now it is about her A and making her decision immediately b/c you will not live in an open M. That's what she made this, when she allowed a third person to come in.

Stand your ground. Do not take the fall for this A. Do not buy into any of her BS. You are the one in charge, not her. Oh, and don't agree to MC or that sort of thing right now. All she has to do is (1) agree to end the A. (2) Write a no contact letter to OM tonight, and give it to you to approve and for you to mail. She will tell OM she made a mistake and has decided to work on her M, and they must not have any contact from this point forward. (3) Agree to be completely transparent and to give you her passwords, and to hand over her phone to you (without warning, of course) whenever you should decide you need to take a look.

If she agrees to number one, then go on to number two and three. She will be outraged. Expect it. If she doesn't agree, send her packing.

[phunguy]

We talked for some time. She came home claws out, where are the kids? You cannot control where they go and I want to see them etc. I told where they were and that they did not need to be here. Straight from there into her talk about me controlling and manipulating her life. And my family controlling and influencing everything. I told her that wasn't true that she withdrew and I made all the decisions because she was not a partner. She tried and tried to spin things at me and repelled them with the facts as best I could. I told her she had done everything she's ever wanted and that I had already apologized to her for my mistakes. That those days are over. That I will not allow her to talk to me like that and that I had some boundaries that needs to be addressed or she could go start packing. Well that shut her up. I'd not seen her this pissed in a while. My W use to be a firecracker!

I told her there was a way forward together or there was a forward way seperate. She maintains that she doesn't believe change is possible and doesn't want to work on anything. She believes I cannot change. But then says making a small pinching with her fingers that that's the possibility for change. She talked about that she said she's seen changes in me but doesn't think they will last, just like all the other times. We also talked about some of her role in all this. She is deep in denial as far as I can tell. She is clinging to that and her resentments because her world is about to change. I told her she could cling to the past all she wanted but I am moving forward with or without her.

I told W that the shoe was now on the other foot and the only way she's staying in this house is if she ends the A. W says she has told him that she cannot be with him, that she needs to get her life together and focus on her kids. I told her that I don't believe her but I will be willing to give her the benefit of the doubt for tonight. I want access to and to randomly check her phone all emails etc. She agreed. I told her that if I caught her she would have to leave immediately.

From there she told me she's done. She just wants out to find herself. I asked her to explain to me how she sees that as a future. She couldn't she says she just can't see us together, that she has a no belief that anything will work. Nor does she want to try because she has already. I tried to explain to her about what I saw as the cycle of our R, she seemed to understand it after a few examples. I explained that my heart will be only open to her for so long. That I don't know how long that will be. Something tells me she needs to go and experience this pain. I told her she could have a 2 weeks to find an apartment or she could move to her friend's house. Since then she has told me she doesn't think she can get an apartment and maybe she should go to her friends but she doesn't want to be away from her kids. I told he she should have thought of that befor and it wasn't my problem.

Seeing as how she is unwilling to work it out at this point I didn't push it anymore. She apologized many times and we talked about the past a bit. I explained to her that I felt it was pointless to discuss the past but would help her understand things if she had questions, I told her until she is able to be honest nothing will be gained from this discussion. We talked about when she moved out how we'd work out visitation for the time being. I told her lets go one step at a time that I would always make sure she could see her kids as long it was in a healthy way. That if she decided to continue her affair she would not involve our children in anyway and if she did that would be a big mistake.

Theres more but that's where I'm at right now. I'm emotionally drained. I feel that Ive come out of this situation ok. As the day has gone by I can see her struggling emotionally trying to keep it together. The kids will ask or say something and she'll almost lose it. The boy is keenly aware she's in pain and has not been nice to her I told him not to treat his mother that way and that we needed to be nice to her. He agreed and has just sort of left her alone it is obvious he is hurt even being around her. We sat down as a family for dinner and I could see her fighting tears pretty much the whole time. She just told me she wants to talk more later I told her I'm here for her.

I suppose I'm back to DB'ng this week. I'm exhausted.

[phunguy]

Who am I kidding she's gone. Time to accept it and move on.

[sandi2]

Ellecent job, Phunguy!

Listen, I know you can't see it right now, but it actually went well. It is extremely rare when the WW agrees to everything and is willing to work on the M. Did you know her part of the discussion was all by script? It was. The whole thing for the WW rests on what happened in the past (the blame game) and every time you bring it back to the present issue, she will try to spin it away from her adultery.

I should have told you (but was running short on time) that the immediate goal last night was not to settle all the problems. It was about stating your boundaries and the conditions of her staying in the home. And for several weeks, that should be your top priority in "saving the M". The longer she stays there while contacting OM, the less effective are your boundaries. She has to honor your boundaries, otherwise, she is not respecting you.

Her accusing you of control & manipulation is all part of the WW script. When she does it, say something like, "You see it as control; I see it as protection over our M". And here's an important part to remember, you cannot reason with a WW. You are wasting your breath trying to sway her thinking. She is going to think like a wayward, b/c that is what she is right now.

From this point, do not engage in long talks. It is useless. The shorter you keep it, the better, b/c you saw how she will work it.....right?

Now I hope you will take this to heart. You men think much differently from us women, so don't think it's all over if she leaves. Remember, she has to be hit with the reality of her own decisions. Last night was just an introduction. She has had it made while staying in her cushy home, enjoying her family, having most the bills paid, the other other assurances that come with M. Think about it. She has not had to suffer anything due to her A. The sooner she and AP are thrust into real life, the better for your family. You are right, she will need to experience pain. It is my strong belief that the WW must suffer some type of loss due to their actions/affair.

You cannot fix the M today. You cannot save it, until she abides by your boundaries. Don't engage in other R talk until she agrees to end the A. What she said about telling OM they couldn't see each other is BS. She still hasn't agreed to anything.

Don't pressure. Just stick to what you told her last night.

[phunguy]

Thanks for the assurance Sandi2!

Script? I don't follow but I understand what you might mean, where is this script? I need to read it! lol
I presume your experience is that you have seen exactly this behavior before and it is predictable to some degree? I told her last night that I know more about her and what she's doing than she does, you should have seen the look on her face! I told her that unlike her I am working on myself and learning about what has happened to our M. I know I blew her mind a bit when I told her that.

I want to hold onto hope and I suppose I am. I love her I cannot deny that or that I want to save this M. I presume I should go back to DB'ng as I said in my post and I keep going back and forth the emotional roller coaster, it is tough. I know I saw it in her face and some comments she made after my post last night that her reality is creeping in slowly. She was looking for apartments last night on her phone and asked me a few questions about money, location, etc. I told her that is for her to figure out, and that she is still responsible for expenses in the house legally, but that once she had a made a decision we could work through particulars, we were in the kitchen preparing dinner, and she started naming things in the kitchen she'd like and I said yes to everything she asked to take (silly kitchen utensils? then she started on about how all these things she will need cost money, beds, a vaccum, etc. It was kinds fun to watch her start to process this stuff), that I was agreeable and kind seemed to throw her a bit. I also told her that I will not help her move(she said her brother would come to help (from 2000 miles away?), I did tell her I will help her review a lease if she'd like my opinion on something she can ask. Later she expressed concern that she wouldn't be able to get an apartment(with her credit being not so good and that she was on the house) and maybe she's move in with her friend T for a while. I told her that is her decision, but that I was sure apartments see women all the time in her perdicament and work with them to some degree. She is worried about the distance if she goes to T's and that she said it would be better for her monetarily than getting an apartment and but tougher to be with the kids if she goes to T's, I told her we could work all that out. That I would never put the children between us, that I do not wish to seek revenge against her or anyone, though a part of me entertains the satisfying thought to cause her pain, I assured her that is not what I would ever do. I told her no one needs any more pain. She told me if I did she'd get an attorney and get after me for harassment. I told her there's no need to worry about that. That I wanted to resolve our situation amicably, she calmed down a bit after that.

I also told her that if it were to take 3 weeks or whatever, that I would be OK with that as long as she abides by my boundaries. She said well make up your mind you want me out or don't you? I told her that I care about her and I don't want her to rush into a bad decision just because she needs to leave, that there is no rush as long as we can cohabitate in a respectful manner I know that the money sitution will weigh on her heavily because I have always handled the finances. We're not rich, but we aren't poor either and we have a good amount of bills that take up the vast majority of our income.

Several times throughout the evening she would be texting and show it to me that it was her friend T. I told her thank you, and that it was difficult for me to see her on her phone and not feel that she was texting him. She said "it's the least I can do". I checked her phone in front of her this morning. She said "see nothing". I said thank you for allowing me to, and I told her I was not happy that I had to do this. She said she understands how hard it must be that she probably couldn't do what I am if it was the other way around. I thought that was interesting and let it be.

I think you're right about experiencing her reality/pain. She hasn't had to do anything except know that I would continue to keep the house running and the kids cared for. I know that there is still a process that can work here, that she acknowledged even a small chance is a chance I suppose. She also said she knows she will most likely never find a man who will love her as I do and that troubles her, she became emotional when she said it and started crying. She has told me she doesn't really see a future with OM but I know she is clinging to that possibility and I know that they will see each other every day at the office. I think she's so wrapped up in those shiny new feelings that she can't see past the temporary happiness she is experiencing. It was a tough evening.

So planning for the week and weeks to come:
Do I go dark?
Last resort?
Do I DB hard?

I was thinking about buying a new cologne and maybe some new clothes, I went and got myself(and my son) some shoes this weekend so maybe a new outfit? I told her that would be making some plans to go out this week, she said "I told you you should go out more, just tell me so I can plan" I told her that I would try to give her sufficient notice but if there was something last minute I would need her to be available to to take care of the kids. Our schedules are a bit different, I work early and get off early. She usually works late(yeah right!). I know she does. She's good at her job and dedicated. I've always admired her for that.

So I'm trying to think of things to do which might put some burden on her and prevent her from being around the OM too much.