Tootling along.

[Sotto]

Well, phase 4 for me.....Here's a link to my previous thread.

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2537797#Post2537797

Just to recap:

July '14- H admits to a PA since Mar'14. I moved out. OW lives abroad with on/off R.

July - Sep '14 - We talk a lot H is lost, confused, loves me, 'feelings for OW'. No talk of D

Oct '14 - I 'drop the rope' - stop initiating convos. Hear from a friend that H says our R is over & he knows he wants a 'family' in his future. R with OW is 'rocky'

Nov & Dec '14- Occasional text contact with H. No talks. He sent me an Xmas present and card, plus HNY text.

Jan '15 - Phone call with H to discuss rabbit rehoming. No R talk. H seems self absorbed/stressed. Away for weekend alone to 'think about his life' - warm, pleasant convo.

Feb '15 - Instructed a L - about to focus on financials (H doesn't know yet). A is continuing as far as I know - but haven't asked lately.

[HeavyD]

Hi Toots

I am sorry this is dragging out so long for you. Are you exhausted? I know I am and wishing the process was over.

hang tough

[Sotto]

Hi Naj, thanks for asking. I'm doing ok thanks. But I have very little contact with H, which is relaxing in a way - but brings different issues of course. I just keep trotting along here - building up GAL plans and my new life. No talk of D for us - but H is pretty conflict avoidant and may struggle to 'go there' - who knows..

For now, I'd like to get our finances separated and get some more monetary security for me, without filing for D. So we'll see how that goes. In the meantime I'm moving forward, but the window is still open a chink if H cares to look in.

[edz]

First 10/10 for title !

Just cooking s well his dinner he'd object to the former, will check in on everyone later

[4mendmj]

Congrats toots on keeping moving forward. Good idea/advice too on separating finances. Not something I want to do at this time but all these different threads help remind us of things to keep in the back of our head as sitchs go different directions.

[Sotto]

Thanks Edz and 4M

I thought the title was apt as my sitch very much 'tootles' right now. Hopefully it might change to something more 'active or positive' at some point in the future.

Is Tootle a British word? Like Mizzle? My H is North American and was astonished to hear me say 'Cheerio!' to someone one day (well, they did said it to me first!) He didn't think anyone over here actually said things like that any more!

I know 4M. I would prefer not to 'go there' ideally. But it needs to be done. I'll keep you posted....

T x

[edz]

tootle
verb
1.
make a series of sounds by blowing a horn, trumpet, or similar instrument.
"he tootled on the horn"
2.
informal
go or travel in a leisurely way.
"they were tootling along the coast road"

[Sotto]

Thank you Edz

"he tootled on the horn" - I can probably work that one into a future thread title too...:-)

[jim0987]

Tootles is a good word though it makes me think of steam trains.

you say more active - what sort of things are you thinking?

[Sotto]

Hi Jim

Well I feel at the moment, we may be in the eye of the storm. There was the huge trauma of BD and the period after that. Then right now all is pretty quiet. But at some point, there will be some kind of resolution - we D, we reconcile - and that's what I mean by more active

Things will get more active when we start looking at financials.....but it's not an 'active' that I'm looking forward to.

[Sotto]

Well, I just want to wish all of my lovely DB friends a happy Valentines Day. We may not be in the sitch we hoped for, but hopefully we can have the best day possible.

Someone (thank you!) posted that the sun will rise on Feb 15th and we shall all still be here, which helped me. Valentines Day may magnify our feelings, but it too shall pass and we shall move forwards.

For me, I'm volunteering this morning, and then going to a lingerie/swimwear factory outlet for a spot of shopping before calling in on M&D and a friend who's visiting them. Plan to keep pretty busy today and not 'dwell.' Show myself some self-love. Don't plan to contact H or SS. Will send H a message for his b'day in a week or so.

Have the nicest day possible for yourselves everyone! xx

[edz]

Morning toots

Was just coming online to do the exact same thing on my thread in a mo, well not the lingerie outlet, I'd get odd looks!

Have a great day mate

[susana4]

Toots, hope you have as good a Valentine's Day as possible. I wish I had more plans for the day (I only have plans for the evening). Your plan sounds good, enjoy it and keep your mind off everything!

[Sotto]

Thanks Edz and Susana

Just back from volunteering and making some lunch. Lit a couple of tealights for us this morning while having coffee in bed. Put on my wedding ring for a few minutes (not worn it since BD) and had a little cry. That's all the dwelling I plan to do for today.

Heading out after lunch for the afternoon. Feel a bit wistful today, but basically ok.

Hope you both have a good day....and a nice evening Susana! T x

[Ontheup]

Don't let it get to ya toots. Defo a sh1tty time with love in the air everywhere else but it will be over by tomorrow.
L aughably my wife bought me some chocolates. She hasn't mentioned it yet but told our d8 that she has and there are some on top of the fire. I almost p1ssed myself laughing inwardly of course. I can't wait to get out now as my bullsh1t detector is at maximum capacity. Keep smiling

[susana4]

Thanks Edz and Susana

Just back from volunteering and making some lunch. Lit a couple of tealights for us this morning while having coffee in bed. Put on my wedding ring for a few minutes (not worn it since BD) and had a little cry. That's all the dwelling I plan to do for today.

Heading out after lunch for the afternoon. Feel a bit wistful today, but basically ok.

Hope you both have a good day....and a nice evening Susana! T x

Had a cry this morning as well...couldn't help it. I've gone to a local coffee shop where thank god there's nothing remotely V Day related. Think I'll hide here for awhile!

Enjoy the rest of your day T. Thanks!x

[edz]

Hi all

(((Susana4))) (((toots)))

Not much time today been a busy edz. Sorry you were upset this morning guys. I do occasionally take a look at my ring, its in the top kitchen drawer. I've picked it up from time to time but, no, I put it back. If its ever to go back on it will be w who puts it there.

Must admit to feeling a bit hit by it late afternoon after making lunch and s having some time on minecraft. No reply from w after texting earlier in the day (need to check on s return plans) but she has called this evening, I'll update my thread in a bit. S is staying again though so thats good

[susana4]

Hi all

(((Susana4))) (((toots)))

Not much time today been a busy edz. Sorry you were upset this morning guys. I do occasionally take a look at my ring, its in the top kitchen drawer. I've picked it up from time to time but, no, I put it back. If its ever to go back on it will be w who puts it there.

Must admit to feeling a bit hit by it late afternoon after making lunch and s having some time on minecraft. No reply from w after texting earlier in the day (need to check on s return plans) but she has called this evening, I'll update my thread in a bit. S is staying again though so thats good

Sorry to hear you were down too edz. Hope things picked up for you in the evening with S. ((()))

[susana4]

How was your shopping and visit Toots? Hope you had a nice day :)x

[edz]

Hope toots doesn't mind a mini hijack. Yes its been a good old day, I've missed w would have thought there was something odd if I hadn't but I've - pardon the pun - tootled along. Thanks for the hug

[Complex]

Thanks toots for the VD wishes and also for looking into my threads once in a while. Your advice is always calming.
I'm glad things are relatively calm around you revently. I guess that is a very very good thing. I like how easy you said "we will D, we will reconcile".
Good attitude towards sth that is still scaring the hell out of me.
But I guess at some point you were able to make peace with yourself, is that right? Was there a moment when you came to peace?

[Sotto]

Hi all - thanks for stopping by - Valentine Buddies!

Complex, I think it happened to me through reading - both forums and books, where I realised that nothing was going to resolve any time soon. And I truly accepted that we both had a journey to take.

In the early days I read and read, planned our convos, took notes, looked for the thing that was going to turn everything around. And then - poof - I just realised that things need to run their course and I let go. In the background, I had also been rebuilding my life here, so that also gives a shift of focus away from the marital sitch.

Now, whilst I still love my H, I realise that it probably wouldn't be a good thing for us to get back together right now - and possibly not ever. Although, I'm sure if he became truly introspective and dug very deep and wanted us to reconcile, that would be what I would want too.

It just all takes time and work, and I think if you have those things - and you are doing the 'right' work, things will shift for you. Thanks for saying you find my advice calming - that's very kind....I don't always feel calm inside! Tx

[Ontheup]

Very true toots.
We all desperately want our S back but you have to ask why? They weren't happy and in my sitch neither was I for a long time so why would I want her back? At the moment not for the right reasons. Very hard to think like that but if you didn't know that person you wouldn't want to be with them. Lying cheating bullying say and do anything together get what they want. Not very appealing right. The reason we want them back is because we're hurt and desperately want to cling on to what we have.
We have to let go, detach and then you'll have clarity.

[Complex]

toots and ontheup, very wise words. So true.
We have to constantly ask ourselves for the reasons we are doing this.
While our S is lying to us we are also lying to ourselves. And it's hard to see the truth. It makes sense to really picture a reconciliation scenario. And sometimes then we don't even see one, or at least see its way more complicated the we would hope for...

[Vanilla]

Toots, Complex, One, Edz and Susan

We do this for us, for restoration of our sanity. To become the best we can. We can be Valentines for ourselves. Treat ourselves well and go GAL on this difficult day, there are other difficult days, anniversaries, birthdays, holidays and we need a strategy to manage these difficult times.

Valentine's Day is one of those days and we can cry for that which was. For that which is changed in our lives.

See this as another milestone, thriving through the tears. Tears release and with each tear another freedom, a new door to the future. Tell us to be ready to detach and move on.

Next Valentine's Day will be a vast improvement on this one. Sweet Valentine will be a joy. So I say already, happy Valentine's Day for next year, let me be the first.

Vanilla

[Complex]

Thumps up Vanilla!

Actually I just cut this day out. I never held much on Valentine's Day anyway. Bunch a crap. Love is so much more. Americans hold a lot more on Valentine's Day than germans also.
Anniversaries etc are way worse. I didn't flinch a single time.

[Sotto]

Thanks all. Well, we survived Valentines Day weekend. No contact from H - much as expected. And not a bad weekend all in all. Went to the parents for lunch yesterday and Aqua Aerobics GAL in the evening.

Wet and grey here this morning. Will the sun ever shine again I ask myself. I'm looking forward to a few weeks time and some (hopefully) mild spring weather. Doing some work from home today and Mum-sitting this evening. Not GAL as such, but she has two fabulous carers and we have a good chat and a laugh when they come.

Complex, I understand what you say about reconciliation. Whilst I'm not closing the door on our M yet. I find it hard to even imagine H and me happily together again. Maybe that's always the case with waywards - their behaviour isn't very lovable is it? I can see if there were some genuine repentance and desire to work on the M it might well be very different.

Quite a busy GAL week for me. Volunteering tomorrow, yoga Wed, meal out (new ladies group) Thur and meeting SS & his Mum on Fri.

Was due to see the mutual friend who told me H said our R was over. Haven't seen or spoken to her since Nov. We were due to meet at Xmas but I was ill. She's lovely, but I feel awkward about the dynamic that she knows where H is at and I don't. She texted last night to say she is ill and may not make it down for a visit. Was partly relieved in truth...it's a shame that this situation has affected our friendship. She told me she feels pretty cross with H putting her in the position he did (telling her our R was over but not telling me - still hasn't).

Oh well....on with the day Toots! Have a good one everyone...:-)

[Vanilla]

Toots

You may never know if H told the mutual friend MF the truth or not.

I think waywards try on attitudes and make statements to see the effect of them.

If I were you then I would just act as if he had said nothing to MF. In your interactions with MF then you could choose to validate, apologise that MF was put in the position and act as if H had not said what he did.

V

[Ontheup]

Hey toots

Agree with Vanilla here. As you already know do not believe anything WS says.
My wife has told her family and friends we're seperating but has she told them the truth? has she hell, she hasnt told a single person (bar IC) because that would be a totally different slant on how she would like to portray it. At the moment she is receiving lots of sympathy/support from her side. If they knew truth that would end.
WS are down a very deep hole desperatly looking for a way out. makes me think of alice in wonderland.

Your doing great. Getting on with your life whatever happens.

[Sotto]

Thanks V and OTU. It's easy to tell others not to believe anything.....and harder not to actually believe anything yourself! I'll try harder with this one. I can certainly see, like with your W OTU, that saying we are 'over' makes having the A more acceptable and legitimate. Or as you say V - could just be 'testing the concept out' - or that he truly believed this at that time Oct/Nov and may or may not still do now!

Anyway - thanks for your comments and best for me not to wonder! Reading Gan's post, it sounds as though she really does know that she'll be okay either way. And that's nice to read....and I do think I'm approaching that point too.

[jim0987]

Hi Toots

Hope you've had a good evening with your mum.

As vanilla said, what your H said only has to affect your relationship with your friend if you choose to let it. H could be saying all sorts of things to all sorts of people, testing how it feels for him, testing what gets him a particularly reaction or equally his mood may be as variable as our weather.

I wonder whether we spend so long thinking about what our WAS' are thinking and doing and what they want that sometimes we dont take long enough to really think about we want.

Answers can be hard so maybe start with what the questions really are for you right now.

[Vanilla]

Toots

Hope you had a fun evening

Vanilla

[Sotto]

I got an email from H today - I'll paraphrase:

*He was made redundant yesterday
*He'd known it might happen (industry downturn)
*He's started looking, but may be out of work for a while
*He thinks we should start selling the family home
*He can't maintain house and flat in longer term
*We should figure out what to do & do it together

*Last year he did something very stupid
*He's still very sorry that he hurt me
*He forgot what was important in life and got all caught up in something
*I'm a special person and he's never been as happy again as he was with me
*But, he doesn't think we can ever go back now
*Hard as it is to say, he needs to tell me he'll continue into a new stage in his life now
*But he doesn't know what it holds for him

So, I guess he's now told me what he's been telling others for a while - our R is over. I'm not sure how to respond and need to think about it.

I can say how sorry I am about his job. I can agree for the house to be sold. I'll see if I can have the pets. He still hasn't (ever) mentioned D, so how do I deal with that? I can tell him that our R ending isn't what I want, but if this is what he wants, I respect and accept that.

I still don't know status of A. But I wonder if this is a chance for he and I to team up and have some more contact in selling/clearing the house. For me to be a supportive friend to him whilst things are tough. But maybe I'm off beam thinking this. What do you think DBers please?

[edz]

Morning toots,

Thats a lot to process. Its beyond my sitch so I can only offer my own thoughts not experience of this so any vets should obviously supercede my advice.

Are you going to return the email with a brief reply and suggest you meet up to talk through some points? If so just keep the reply warm raise the points you mention and suggest meeting up somewhere to talk through what each of you wants to happen, I wouldn't fall into my personal pitfall of seeing an ending yet, I think or thought, everything was "the end" it will be when it is it isn't yet. Unless I've misunderstood he still hasn't mentioned d so I think there are options to be explored, this is of course if thats what you want.

I think being supportive and warm is good (basically my mantra right now) but be sure to stay true to your message that this isn't what you want.

Hang in there toots

[susana4]

Hi Toots, wow, that's a tough one. I'll second what Edz said - don't think this is the end unless you want it to be. As far as your response, I wish I could offer some words of wisdom but I'm not sure. I'll just say - don't feel pressured to respond right away. No harm in leaving it till the end of the day or tomorrow, and taking some time to really think out your response.

Perhaps if you need to buy time you could reply "so sorry to hear about your job. [something validating or encouraging] Wow there's a lot to think about in this email, I'll reply properly tomorrow."

[Vanilla]

Toots

These are my first thoughts but I will think a little more. I am going to put V client hat on first, (a little cooler) and ask myself if Toots were a client of mine what would I say? I will post a little later as V DB friend.

A number of things, firstly if he has been made redundant there will be a redundancy cheque. Any idea of how much, how many years has he been with his current employer for example? Is this a voluntary redundancy, if so there will be a large discretionary element. What about H pension stuff. Can look on this and there are changes from 6 April 2015 in the UK. Will review this for my next post.

H will get another job and that stage consider the issue of sale of houses.

Update L on this and get advice on your new position.

Take some of the emotional stuff with a pinch of salt, he may have applied for a job in China for all you know at this stage. Mind you my H just took his redundancy money, did not look for another job and spent it. But he is almost 59. If I had known this my view would have been different when this happened.

If this were V and she felt she were being made redundant then she would be researching a new job. Take the redundancy money, pay off a chunk of mortgage etc.

Take your time in rushing to respond, consider what your H is likely to do. Toots the job market in the UK is generally good. look after Toots on this. I think Toots needs more Intel.

Vanilla

[rd500]

Hi Toots, as you are well aware I'm very far from a vet but he comes my thoughts.

Based on the email your H is very confused, he just lost his job and is obviously not over the moon with his new life.

For me, the part about R being over can be taken both ways, yes he is moving forward but not sure what that holds. I can also see him reaching out somewhat. I would take things very slowly now and would not be looking for any talk about R. Again, for me,
he seems to be looking at his own sitch with fresh eyes. Getting laid off nust be very hard and unless he has a heart of stone, his personal life must be causing him pain. As I have said before, my own W can breeze into the house with a smile and good form and call me on the phone 10 mins later crying her eyes out.

I don't see any big change in your sitch other than H now has money worries on top of the rest of his troubles. You know about my stars and planet theory and his email is full of stars.

Nothing really changed except he is saying he made mistakes and loads of stars. Now the stars are to be ignored in my opinion but and its a big but, that email contains load of positive stars and if your going to see stars, better they are positive.

Again, for me, don't react, give yourself time to process what he said and give him time to process the loss of his job.

Please take care and take your time, RD

[Sotto]

Thanks Edz and Susana - I haven't replied yet, but he's emailed again:

*He hopes I won't take his email as presumptuous
*As though he might decide what's best for us
*He didn't intend it that way
*He knows I have my own life now
*He hopes it is happy and only wishes the best for me
*The more he things about it, he wishes he'd put things differently
*He hopes I understand it isn't always easy to write things

Love H.

[rd500]

Hi Toots, just read your post re new email, more confusion, more reaching out ? Again, stars but he is thinking,.

take care, Rd

[edz]

May be just me but thats the kind of thing I was doing post bd in my fog, sounds like he is feeling a lot of emotions and isnt sure how to process them or if he's doing the right thing.

Again toots, obviously warmth but dont rush breathe, relax and make sure you focus on you as well

[gan]

Hi Toots, Interesting times for you. How you holding up?

I really hope a vet weights in - Wonka especially as she's da bom with replies.

It is curious that he's sent two emails. He's clearly anxious about this. Maybe you could just send something short, sweet and reassuring at this stage to buy a bit more time:

Very sorry to hear about your job. I didn't take your first email as presumptious at all, just need some time to give you a more considered reply. I will be in touch.

[Sotto]

Thanks so much everyone. I'm doing okay actually - pretty calm. I think the idea of responding to the job situation warmly, with a holding response on the rest, is a good one. I'll post a draft response a bit later. If you can keep the advice coming, I'd be grateful - it's really helping.

Thinking further about it, it's a bit funny to get made redundant on Tuesday, and then suddenly decide you need to resolve your 'long standingly in limbo' marital situation on Wednesday morning. Why add more stress to your life right now?

So, I think H might be in a bit of a flat spin, and I need not to get caught up in making huge decisions and 'resolving' things right now. I'm due to see the L in any case next week and I can update her and discuss implications of positive house sale. I'll do that before I respond to him on the house.

I agree that in a way it feels like he's reaching out, but also that he's telling me it's the end, but is he? Does he want this to be a mutual decision? Part of me just wants to say - look, are you asking me for a divorce here? But of course I won't....

Thanks for your support my friends :-)

[Ggrass]

Perhaps if you wanted to know the status of the a you could ask.

[Barrybran]

Patience Ggrasshopper I think Toots is on the right track by validating about the job loss and holding off on the rest. Seeing the L before responding about the house sale is a wise decision and H may feed you more info out of desperation before then. It's been several months; what's another couple of weeks?

[Sotto]

So, I'm thinking about this for a holding response...comments please..

H, I'm so sorry to hear about your job. Being made redundant is horrible and I'm sure it will take time to come to terms with it. You've so much to offer any new empoyer. You are talented and experienced, and I do wish you well in your search for work.

There's lots to think about in your emails, and I don't think you're being presumptuous. I'll respond properly when I've had some time to think about things.

Take care H, and please don't hesitate to get in touch if I can help or support.

Love Tx

[Ggrass]

That's good.

Pleasent and validating.

I just it seem like you wanted to know about the a.

[edz]

Yup I like that one Toots.

Had a thought which then immediately ran away like a run awaying thing but just remembered now, I do sometimes wonder if my W is waiting for me to hit the "big red button" so she can not have to be the bad guy, Im not saying thats whats happening with your H as Im not sure from what you've written, indeed this seems more like he's waiting to see if you agree its the end or if you are inclined to offer another option.

I think warm validation and maybe getting into a situation where he can open up more on why he thinks theres no way forward for reconcilation may give you more options to see if thats truly what he's thinking.

Just my .02 of course!

[rd500]

looks good to me Toots, lets him see your there for him without any expectations. Sounding strong.

Take care, Rd

[susana4]

Hi T,
I think it's good. Warm and avoids R talk.

I just have a minor suggestion - I would replace "you're so talented and experienced" with something more specific about what he's good at (I find really specific/personal compliments best - but maybe that's just me!). I would also say "I believe you will do really well in your job search" (rather than "I wish you luck") - just to be encouraging/build confidence but again that's just me.

Do you think he is being presumptuous? Just wondering.

[gan]

Reads well to me, Toots. Susana has some good suggestions.

[Sotto]

Thanks so much all. I just emailed him along the lines of what I suggested above, but incorporating your suggestions Susana. Not done anything other than think about my sitch this morning and it's noon now! Think I'll get out for a walk now. I'll update you when there's further news.

T x

[edz]

Have a good one Toots

[susana4]

Let us know what he says Toots! And enjoy the rest of your day, hope the sun is shining there too

[Starsky309]

I still don't know status of A.

Then I find it impossible to advise you, as it's obviously key. I agree with the above V assessment -- Toots needs more intel.


Starsky

[Ontheup]

ill get told off now but you could have said

"tell someone who gives sh1t"

its just a joke everyone, I don't actually mean it

[jim0987]

Hi toots,

That's a really interesting development if I can say that for something like this.

I've got a couple of thoughts which I'll post later once the kids are in bed. The short version though is I didn't read it as an ending

Hope you've also got this lovely sunshine.

[Sotto]

Well, we have a good mutual female friend, who keeps in touch with us both, and is supportive of our M. I have held off asking her anything since I started DBing as it was 'against the rules.' To her, I have been presenting myself as moving forwards and enjoying what new life has to offer. I could ask her and ask that she doesn't tell H.

Otherwise, it's asking him direct (not very appealing, but is it best to be direct?) or asking a mutual male friend, but TBH that friend is more 'his' - tho I know he was against the A relationship. The final person is his XW, who again has been very pro our R and against the A. But that just feels a bit weird. Plus, I'm not sure who, if anyone, yet knows of his redundancy and I don't want to go around breaking that news to others...

[rd500]

Hi Toots, I would hold off asking, if he is, is that the end for you ? if he says no, can you believe him ? I know you keep upto date with my sitch (very kind, thank you) and my W still denies OM is anything but a good friend. I have asked her to just tell me when we are on our own and she can deny it 5 mins later but just to let me move on, she still denies it.

Asking could set back any pro M thoughts he is having or put you in a worse place.

Just a non vets thoughts,

take care, RD

[Starsky309]

ill get told off now but you could have said

"tell someone who gives sh1t"

its just a joke everyone, I don't actually mean it

I don't get it?

[Starsky309]

Well, we have a good mutual female friend, who keeps in touch with us both, and is supportive of our M. I have held off asking her anything since I started DBing as it was 'against the rules.' To her, I have been presenting myself as moving forwards and enjoying what new life has to offer. I could ask her and ask that she doesn't tell H.

Otherwise, it's asking him direct (not very appealing, but is it best to be direct?) or asking a mutual male friend, but TBH that friend is more 'his' - tho I know he was against the A relationship. The final person is his XW, who again has been very pro our R and against the A. But that just feels a bit weird. Plus, I'm not sure who, if anyone, yet knows of his redundancy and I don't want to go around breaking that news to others...

If you ask a cheater directly if they're cheating, and they're not anymore, they'll say "No, I'm not."

If you ask a cheater directly if they're cheating, and they still are, they'll say "No, I'm not."

Good luck with that, lol.

No, I wouldn't involve anyone else. All you can do is have independent intel in place, and if you don't you can TELL him (as in "Well, I would only be interested if OW were not still in the picture -- and I mean NO CONTACT -- my position hasn't changed on that"), but you can't ASK him.

[DaddyLongShanks]

ill get told off now but you could have said

"tell someone who gives sh1t"

its just a joke everyone, I don't actually mean it

I understand. In the case of a WAS or WAH, you can always say "Don't tell me, tell the OM/OW. Let them do that for you"
it's a good and proper comeback to many demands or requests.

[Sotto]

Thanks Starsky. I have no independent intel in place. Since I moved out in July I haven't 'snooped' as such. Although I do a little 'tabletop browsing' when I visit our FH 2 hours away. So, I guess it's do nothing for now on the A front..

I don't think restating my boundary on OW is needed right now as H is actually telling me we're done and kind of asking me, are we done? And kind of reaching out?

I'm seeing my L next week & will respond to H query about selling the house which we bought and own 50/50. I'm glad that's come up from him as I didn't want to force that issue due to impact on SS14. But if it has come from H, he can 'own' that one, and it will certainly help my finances.

Having done a 'holding' email on the house and R stuff, I'll also start thinking about a response to those. BTW, the joke above is in response to H telling me he was just made redundant yesterday, and a bunch of other stuff about the A being 'stupid' and he'd forgotten what was important....etc..

[edz]

I don't think restating my boundary on OW is needed right now as H is actually telling me we're done and kind of asking me, are we done? And kind of reaching out?

Hi Toots

I think the above is the crux of it, he doesnt (to me reading what youve posted) seem to be making a statement of it's over as much as saying its over unless you think its not. May just be me misreading or something lost in translation though and I certainly wouldnt want to push false optimism, just seems to be put in a way thats open to interpritation.

I know my w started off with more or less well we're heading for divorce in two years (no fault admitted) see ya. And now we're, well bad example, I have no flippin clue!

[Vanilla]

Toots

Ignore the emotional stuff. Leave it be, if H wants to R or consider it then he will say directly unequivocally.

You have been warm enough, H knows the door is open. let him push it, then in with your boundaries and questions. You do need to warm.

Until then L and look after Toots. There is more to know, let it unfold. Save the texts.

Vanilla

[jim0987]

Hi Toots,

I really dont want to give you false hope but when i first read your summary of the email and then reread it just now, personally I saw the opposite conclusion to you

rather than 'Ive decided we're done' i read more 'i'm resigned to us being done because i dont see the way back'

the second of these is where there is the possibility of a chink of light, like a trepidatious 'please tell me its not all over' but there isnt a way to know for definite right now and i certainly wouldnt act on that basis.

Even if it were an unequivocal its all over, what would you do differently today/tomorrow? havent you already had that message at somepoint since or on BD and yet you have opted a different acceptance of that message.

it certainly a conundrum of what to do but i think sending a holding message is good. you also need to work out what you really want.

[Sotto]

Thanks to you all. I'm just trying to regroup today and think about the rest of my response. There seems to be a view that H is saying "it's over...but then backtracking a bit and asking do I think it's over? Is that what I want?

There also seems to be a mixed view on whether I should even respond to the R stuff. I do feel I don't want to 'toy' with him right now, given his redundancy and general state of his life. Is this time for me to restate my original position on R?

"What has happened to us isn't what I wanted, but I do realise that whatever happens I'll be okay. I deserve to be with someone who is 100% committed to me, truthful and faithful. I still hope that ends up being you.

If you want our relationship and our marriage to end, I fully respect and accept that. I realise I need to let you go and I won't stand in your way, but it isn't what I want."

I won't post anything until I have views on this. My L appt is next Wed, so in respect of the house I can tell him I want to a) think about that some more? b) get some advice? and will get back to him middle of next week. I don't feel I want to leave it that long in terms of the R stuff though if I'm going to respond on that.

I'm just a bit unsure about my approach here...part of me wonders if I should tell him I don't understand what he's asking. Is he asking me whether I think things are over, or is he telling me he wants them to be over? Or saying to him....you said you wished you'd put that differently. How do you wish you'd put it?

I'll take it nice and slow and make sure I'm comfortable with what I'm trying to do here before I respond.

There's also the unknown quantity of the A - obviously crucial and he's in no doubt about my stance on that as I was rock solid firm on my boundary of no open marriage from the outset. But if he's saying he was stupid, got caught up in something, and lost sight of what was important - my hunch is it may well be over....but who knows with a WAW? He may just be pretty low and telling me what he thinks I want to hear...

Any advice would be welcome!

[susana4]

Hi Toots,
On the house stuff I think you should definitely leave it till you've spoken to the L. On the R thing, I don't think there's anything wrong with restating your position (the way you stated it is very much a declaration of fact, and not pushing him or asking for anything), but maybe a vet will have a different view. Hopefully one will come along and help you draft a reply.

[edz]

Morning Toots

Yes I can see what you're saying, I like what you wrote but may be worth a vet taking a look as well esp someone who know more than I do about WAS and OP involvement.

It sounds to me like you not only made your boundry strong and clear regarding no open marriage but also that you've stayed consistent in that message so I wouldnt doubt H knows it. May be worth seeing why he thinks things are over if indeed he does.

[gan]

Toots, I think the wording is ok but I'm just really not sure on what the strategy should be. Hope a vet comes along sometime soon.

"I deserve to be with someone who is 100% committed to me, truthful and faithful."
-> potentially guilt-inducing?

[jim0987]

*He was made redundant yesterday
*He'd known it might happen (industry downturn)
*He's started looking, but may be out of work for a while
*He thinks we should start selling the family home
*He can't maintain house and flat in longer term
*We should figure out what to do & do it together

*Last year he did something very stupid
*He's still very sorry that he hurt me
*He forgot what was important in life and got all caught up in something
*I'm a special person and he's never been as happy again as he was with me
*But, he doesn't think we can ever go back now
*Hard as it is to say, he needs to tell me he'll continue into a new stage in his life now
*But he doesn't know what it holds for him

*He hopes I won't take his email as presumptuous
*As though he might decide what's best for us
*He didn't intend it that way
*He knows I have my own life now
*He hopes it is happy and only wishes the best for me
*The more he things about it, he wishes he'd put things differently
*He hopes I understand it isn't always easy to write things

reposting these bits because its ultimately what we are talking about here.

Hi Toots, I hope you dont mind but im going to offer my typically ill informed opinion but i hope it helps in some way.

On the house front, i think wait until you've spoken to your solicitor. if he asks say its because you want to understand this from a legal perspective.

so looking at his first email there are a few questions that it raises for me (NOT suggesting you ask these to him)
1) what is happening with the A, the intimation here is that its over but you cant know
2) he forgot what was important - So what does he think is important
3) he doesnt think you could go back - why not? and Toots, would you want to?
4) what does he want from the new stage of his life

The second also raises some questions for me
5) why does he think its presumptious?
6) if he wishes he put it differently, how does he wish he put it? What is he really trying to tell you here?

I clearly cant answer these but i think they are important questions. I dont know if you can tell more from the actual emails and your knowledge of H

I'm not convinced restating your position/boundary is the right way to respond to this. it feels a bit like out of kilter and for once im struggling with an appropriate movie based metaphor to explain. I guess sometimes stating this stuff doesnt always project confidence, just being self assured does.

my feeling is that you want to be warm but self-assured, reassuring but detached. personally i would try to engage with the content of his emails. Something like

'H

Don't worry it wasnt presumptious. I understand that things are uncertain for you at the moment and that you are just trying to figure out whats next for you. And if you feel that you wanted to say something differently then please do, I know how hard I find it sometimes to express exactly how i feel.

I think you're right and that together we should figure out the best plan for both of us with regard to the family home. we can try and find some time to talk about it sometime after the middle next week if that suits, i'm afraid i'm stacked up until then.

Thank you for your kind words, I too was happy while we were together. If there is anything this last year has taught me it is how to appreciate the value and happiness in my life.

Toots'

I might be way off, but i though its better to consider different options.

my memory is failing me and i dont have vanilla's notes. Can you remind me what his complaints were about the marriage (the ones you can believe)

[rd500]

HI Toots, no sage advice to offer, just a small bit of support / my view.

For me, your H seems very confused. Alot is happening in his life and most of it not good. I personally would not push anything or say / email anything. If he is having second thoughts he will make it clear to you. I'm sorry for refering to my sitch all the time but I have had W say (in the last two weeks) that our M was good, I was a good husband, a great father, her life is now crap, she hates her new place and hates the drive to it, she is very unhappy and sees no future for herself, she thinks she is making a big mistake, she thinks she's having a breakdown and she doesn't understand what she is doing. Even though she is saying all these things, she shows no signs of coming home.

For me, your H is coming forward and you could go forward but I would be very wary, if your H wants to make a go of a M with you, he has to commit fully and not just run to you because things are tough.

Just my two pence worth.

Take care, RD

[edz]

No kind of advice beyond what I put earlier Toots, just checking in on how you're doing in yourself?

[Vanilla]

Practicalities Toots:

You need to know the effective date of redundancy for H. It makes a great deal of difference. The rules on pensions change 5 April 2015 in the UK.

If he is on (say) 3 months notice then this will be after 5 April then he can have his redundancy over £30k paid to his pension and immediately remove 25% tax free to maximise his position. And then move his pension pot, even into the EU to a more friendly regime where he can draw more under the rules of the receiving country. He would also get a tax allowance in that country. There are a number of ways of managing this.

If it is before 5 April this does not work so well and you are on more solid ground.

So I would probably gently add some questions of H?

H you told me this redundancy was on the cards, it sounds like there are a number of people leaving the firm. I know you will be concerned for your work colleagues, are you all leaving together? Have they told you when that will be? I am happy to help you with your CV if you would like that. One of my particularly (nerdy) strengths is paperwork so if you would like assistance then I would be comfortable at anything you email to me.

That was basically the stance I took with my H, and it worked as we reviewed his stuff. You MUST be capable of being impartial and ask H to refer to a fin adviser if you have a conflict. I probably would not suggest this to many but I am convinced Toots is more than capable. We can always chip in.

This will tell you if this is a scheme of redundancy, what the legal compliance will be. If there is commutation to pension scheme etc. Intel Toots, Intel.

It is worth you examining. My spider sense is bristling.

V

[Vanilla]

Practicalities Toots continued:

Apologies fat finger syndrome again.

Also Toots, work life cover may cease, you may want to consider owning a life policy on H life. Look at a term policy preferably until H is 65 or 67. You should own this policy and pay the premiums, as long as H is a non smoker this will be inexpensive. Anyone with a mortgage or loans or children with a partner should consider this as a necessity. These can be bought from the Internet and the payout will be tax free if partner dies, they are usually inexpensive. The younger the life insured the cheaper.

I learned this the hard way, H1 had a policy on V, but of course it was H1 that died! This was because H1 was a student/untenured but V was working. V had no protection and the economics were tough.

V

[Starsky309]

I like both of the suggested scripts above, Jim's about the relationship/housing and V's about the job. Both pitch-perfect, I thought.

and "x 2" on V's thoughts about treading very carefully, legally/financially here. These kinds of things can affect you for many years going forward!


Starsky

[Sotto]

Dear all, thanks so much for all of the advice. To be honest, I've had a bit of a delayed reaction today and have felt a bit sick, shaky and tearful - so it's been helpful to get your views.

V, thanks so much for the practical stuff, that's really helpful. I'm not going to broach that in the response to H right now, but very useful to understand more about the process and options. Jim, thanks for the suggested script, which I plan to go with for now....I have slightly adjusted it - but essentially not taken anything away or added anything:f

Dear H - I hope you're doing okay.

Don't worry, your email wasn't presumptuous. I understand things are uncertain at the moment and that you're just trying to figure out what's next for you. And if you feel you wanted to say something differently, then please do - I know how hard I find it sometimes to express how I feel.

I think you're right that together we should work out the best plan for us both in terms of the house. I'm pretty busy until the middle of next week, but maybe we can find some time to work things out after that?

Thanks for your kind words - I too was happy while we were together. If there's anything this past year has taught me, it's how to appreciate and value the happiness in my life.

Take care, Toots

Starsky, I'm glad of your endorsement - thank you. Are we comfortable with the above now? So, as I understand it my 'strategy' right now is to:

a) Buy a little time on the house front, pending legal advice, whilst acknowledging we need to attend to it
b) Draw H out a little further (if possible)on the R front in a warm and validating way without revealing 'my hand' or asking direct questions or pressuring.

Would that be about right? I think I'll feel better when I've responded to him and it's 'done.' I feel like I've been sitting comfortably on my DB perch for so long, this has knocked me off it...I feel frightened about having to try and make big decisions right now, and I'm having a bit of a 'flight' response.

Thanks again to you all :-)

[Vanilla]

Seems good to me

V

[jim0987]

a) Buy a little time on the house front, pending legal advice, whilst acknowledging we need to attend to it
b) Draw H out a little further (if possible)on the R front in a warm and validating way without revealing 'my hand' or asking direct questions or pressuring.

Sounds like a good plan to me. it might be a bit of tight rope though so where you can slow things down and take your time.

and i'm happy with the starsky script endorsement, maybe im finally learning.

[susana4]

Toots, I don't have much to contribute on this but I just wanted to say good luck and let us know what his response is.

[Sotto]

Thanks everyone. I've decided I'll email H later tomorrow. I'm meeting up with SS and his mum for lunch, and don't want to feel 'on edge' thinking H may have replied. Or worse, receive a 'cold truth' reply and be feeling upset. So, I'll go for lunch and send it some time after that.

I just want to get myself to a calmer place for now. Seems a bit daft to be thrown for a loop by this after all I've been through already. But if H and I are in contact a little more, it should all feel a bit more 'normal' and hopefully I'll lose the 'flight/flee' impulse.

The more I think about it, the more I feel his getting in touch is part of a 'stress reaction' after getting made redundant. He could have got in touch on any day over the last few months. Why choose the day after you're made redundant to start addressing your marital impasse? IDK

Anyway - mindreading I know. I did manage to do yoga GAL yesterday and bookshop GAL this pm despite feeling a little hysterical...

[susana4]

Toots, sorry this has thrown you for a loop, I completely get why. It must be so weird for him to pop up with this out of the blue after so long with out contact!

Hope your lunch tomorrow goes ok. I think it's fine to leave it a little longer and Think about what you want to say.

[Sotto]

Had a really good sleep last night. Woke up bright eyed and bushy tailed ready to see SS and his Mum today for lunch. Had a couple of text exchanges with H. I wanted to check if SS & XW knew about the redundancy - they do.

I've decided that for me, it is right for NC to come to an end now, and I'm going to check in on H a bit more often on a friendly basis. Just to see how he's doing and with no expectations. I want to be 'there' for him during what may be a tough period. But I'll monitor how things go, and remain very aware that I really don't know the status of things.

It struck me last night that H may go through a phase a bit like I went through after BD. He has left work already and said in his email 'suddenly I have nothing to do.' He has lost his job (like I left my job) and now faces losing our home (which I 'lost' after BD). I wonder what he'll 'do' with this period of time. He has been so busy for so many years, it will be pretty weird for him.

Anyway, it's good to feel on a more even keel. It's good to know that whilst things might unsteady you, it's only for a couple of days, and I'm back on my 'perch' again - at least for now. :-)

[rd500]

Hi Toots, just checking in, enjoy your lunch and give yourself all the time you need to think.

Take care Rd

[edz]

Toot toot Toots, sounds like you're off with a spring in your step this morning. Have a great lunch and keep the PMA a'flying.

Check in with you later

[Sotto]

Thanks RD

Hey, the other thing I've noticed is that Mrs Fixit - a hibernatory creature - is well and truly awake now. She has been rattling the closet door these past few days..

Oh, H could do this. He should really make the most of this break - he works so hard. Maybe he should take up yoga? Visit his family in North America?

It's been quite illuminating and I really want to suggest absolutely nothing to H. But it does make me see what I've been doing a lot of in our M. It was probably pretty annoying - like I really know the answers to everything, know what's best?

[Vanilla]

It is interesting he has already left.

Sounds very immediate, unlike redundancy

V

[edz]

In my field of IT (wont go into too many specifics but mostly MI analysis and systems) its normal you go almost immediately. To prevent you getting a grievance on and doing something with the data that gets the company in trouble. You normally get your credential access revoked almost immediately as well. Just to protect you from suspicion and the company from trouble down the line.

Although I dont know H's field - you dont need to tell us if youd rather not for his privacy obviously

[susana4]

Toots, sounds really positive and you are doing well. Way to not get knocked back.

And it's great you can recognise some of your tendencies like the Fix-It thing.

Enjoy your lunch!

[Sotto]

Hi both, I'm sure it was redundancy. Like your field Edz - everyone just goes straight away and gets paid off. H's company have made two big rounds of redundancies in the past year and that has happened to everyone. They get called in, told, leave the building and get paid off. He works in the oil industry and the low oil price at the moment is causing the squeeze.

[edz]

Mrs Fixit - a hibernatory creature - is well and truly awake now. She has been rattling the closet door these past few days..

<snip>

it does make me see what I've been doing a lot of in our M. It was probably pretty annoying - like I really know the answers to everything, know what's best?

Join the club! Its difficult if you routinely have to work out solutions, improvise corrections, develop or are creative its wired through your mind to look for connections and solutions. Object A and object B how to make them work together, how to get from b to c without going through e, quelling that is difficult and tongue biting can be necessary, that and the mental big box of sticly brix!

My Mr fixit was, according to Gg, having a thing with her Ms I can.. he's certainly not bothering me right now so I'll need to check in if she's seen him lol

[Ggrass]

Mines been out, trying to fix the cute dude.

He seems really capable, I'm not sure why on earth I need to interfere in his life. I don't know him.

I don't even know really if he's interested and truely single. APart from he said I like living alone.

[Sotto]

That's Ms Fixit in overdrive....trying to fix people she doesn't even know! Hello, I'm Ms Fixit....give me a moment, I'm sure I can find something to fix about you....:-)

[Ggrass]

It was more like oh no your leaving?
Here let me give you a job lead on a plate.

Pulled way back, now didn't see him today and have resisted the contact urge.
Slaps self with a wet fish, yeah I'm a changed human!

Groans more work.,

[edz]

Now THERES the T-shirt slogan Toots, I double dog dare you to have it made up - oh and wear it of course, Im going to see if I can get one made up like that with Mr Fixit on it this weekend I think

[edz]

Slaps self with a wet fish, yeah I'm a changed human!

Ah the rarely seen fish slapping dance, we must observe closely

Not easy Gg, the times Ive been around W in the flat and seen an issue or she's described something she's having a problem with. I've had to put Mr F in concrete boots and stick him in a barrel at times to stop him leaping to the rescue like a demented superhero. All different if Im asked to help of course.

Think we all need to get the rubber band twinging going!

[Sotto]

I think there's actually a comic superhero in the making here....

[Ggrass]

Toots get outta my way, you have nothing on me!

Shoves toots to the ground let me fix it for you, God knows I can damn well do this!

It's Funny now tho, as in my marriage ms I know everything was silent. I let h lead everything, decide most stuff and set the tone.

Bows she out and boy makin up for lost time.

[edz]

Same here Gg, I deferred all direction to w as she naturally is (by her own definition) a control freak. Didnt stop mr F surfacing and winding her up though.

[Sotto]

Well, just sent the email to H. Hd a nice lunch with Ss & his Mum. A good chat and some laughs. I always get a big hug from Ss - lovely as he's 14. He's a great lad. We're going to get together over Easter.

Boy, they were a bit negative about H though. I said I was sorry to hear about his job (they already knew - I checked with H.) XW said he was having a big pity party & she wasn't going along to it. They moaned about him for a couple of mins & Ss said his Dad could be a real a$$. I just watched on. Nothing about the A said. I think HXW thinks we won't reconcile & I'll be well-rid of him. Awkward really..

[Vanilla]

Hey

Can Mr/Ms/Mrs/Dr fixits be kept in the blue work box rather than the pink personal box?

Although might be handy to have a green, the car is broken down box or a purple wash the bed socks box.

In that way not a jack in a box!

V

[Vanilla]

Toots

Glad you sent the email.

Only awkward if you let it!

V

[susana4]

Toots,
So glad your lunch went well and that you got to see SS(and will get to hang out over Easter). Well done sending the email, let us know what happens!

Don't worry about XW - doesn't matter what she thinks!

Do you have any nice GAL plans for the weekend?

[Sotto]

Thanks V and Susana

Well, as my movie and snax plans fell through....

Quietish day tomorrow. Just ambling over to see the parents for lunch and pottering.

Sunday is busier. We're having a move around at the charity bookstore and a bunch of us are going in to do that. May bake something tomorrow to take with me.

Sunday evening is Aqua Aerobics - for which I just bought a fetching new swimsuit!