Getting back to me

[mustardseed]

Thanks V. I think I am just feeling like I am acting crazy. I am doing and saying whatever i can to try and control things that aren't within my control. And I am making myself look like a complete fool.

Today OW's d came over. The girls were having fun. I had to go down to the school to drop something off for S and the girls came with me. I ran into one of H's coworkers who was asking odd questions about where I was living and mentioned that she has heard things. I played cheerful and clueless. "Yes, WE are still living here. Yes I have a new job." I guess there is a lot of gossip going on about my situation among his coworkers. Of course, then the girls came out to give me a pizza to carry back since they were on bikes. And my mind started racing. If there is an affair, and the coworkers know, and here I am down at school with OW's d and playing it off like my marriage is still in tact then maybe it will make them look bad for carrying on behind my back. But it also makes me look foolish. And maybe nothing inappropriate is going on between them at school, but they are all talking about how I should be moved out, yet there I am pretending nothing has changed. The whole thing is such a mess. I had to know what the deal was.

I had to bring it up to H. H seemed genuinely surprised that this person would know anything. If he didn't say anything, then it shows that people he trusts are talking. Not that it is a big deal. I am talking, too. My networks are just much less entwined with his then his is with mine. I guess it isn't really that big a deal. I could have left it at that, but I went right back into my questions about OW. Wanting to know everything--"why does she think of you as her best friend?", "Why didn't I now you were that close?", "When did it begin?" "Why is she in such a rush to get us divorced?" He gave me nothing, but told me how his lawyer is aware of this "ambushing in front of the kids". The girls were inside. We were outside. I told him I just need answers. He just told me he owes me nothing we are done, blah blah blah. The girls came outside but they were nowhere near us. And I continued my interrogation. OW came to pick up her D while we were doing this. She didn't park or come in, but she asked her D to call him over. I walked out from the patio with him but didn't go to the car. It was brief--couple of seconds at most.

Ugh. I just want to know if it is an A or not--how do you know if a friendship is an EA? I don't think he is in love with her or thinks of her as a potential partner. She might have different ideas, IDK. He is really attractive, she is not. The problem is not so much what their relationship is, but that I care too much. I need to NOT CARE, but I'm obsessed with it. It gives him power. That makes me feel crazy. Honestly, I really just want her gone. D wants OW's D to come over again tomorrow and we agreed. She isn't going away.

See. I am not DBing at all anymore. I am doing the opposite. I am in a desperate place of think, if it is all over anyway then I am going no holds bar. I don't want this marriage I have right now. I don't even want the one I used to have. But I still want that man--that man that I am not so sure ever existed. I keep trying to dig him back out of this man who is rejecting me but it keeps making things worse. And i know better, but I just can't seem to stop myself. That is why I feel so crazy. Usually I can rationalize my way into a better place, but right now I am letting my emotions make all of the decisions and they are always really, really bad ones.

[Fogg]

Sorry about your recent troubles mustardseed, I hope things get better for you.

I think we never really get an answer that satisfies us with why this is happening, so pressing our WAS for answers and discussions doesn't do much for us, yet we all it at times. I think that's one of the more difficult parts of this is accepting the answers we want or need don't really matter in the long run and might not even exist.

We all have those moments where we break down and fight for that answer, its normal. Just a week ago I was in tears after I found something that strongly suggested W slept with OM. I asked W why I wasn't good enough, why OM, why she pushed me away during the miscarriage and never let me be there, but she did HIM...... I hate I asked it because I felt like I was doing so well, but I was desperately grasping for anything at the moment to give me some comfort and/or closure. It was the first time I've been needy and desperate in a long time. What we need to accept is that the answer doesn't exist because it really isn't about us, its about them. We fight our battle, they fight theirs.

Also, give yourself some credit. Your going through an extremely difficult experience and loss, its normal to have wild thoughts and emotions. It takes time and patience with yourself to be able to control your emotions and let go. Your not crazy.

I haven't read all of your threads but I plan to when I get some time. I see some similarities just from the little I've read and what you posted on my thread that interests me.

Stay strong and keep moving forward.

[Vanilla]

Msd

It appears that it is the not knowing that is the problem. That it is the living in a position of hidden A, an insecure position. Is it or isn't it?

How can you be sure?

It is the gas lighting and hidden nature?

Who knows or thinks they know?

I am absolutely convinced that it is this denial by Msd. The insecurity of not wanting this to be true. That your H is saying selfishly that this scuzzy W is not an OW. In the meanwhile you are babysitting her daughter.

Msd you are too good to your H. This friendship or EA or PA is wholly inappropriate and needs to stop.

Msd you need peace from this, a space, a gap, this is not you being crazy, it is your sitch. There must be a way of confirming this to your own satisfaction. Msd as your DB friend I am convinced enough this is damaging to you. I am sure this is an R that you do not want to accept. An inappropriate R.

This is untenable, you are asking yourself to live in this tension in order to maintain an illusion of hope. Your H selfishness with this inappropriate R is harmful to you as is your denial, the denial of harm. Living in denial and harm is amongst the worst damage you can do to yourself. Msd this is like living in an alternate universe, when you live with a gambler or a hidden alcoholic there is this illusion. So it is with a hidden A.

Consider if this is a full on A what would you do? What evidence would satisfy you?

What will you do with the knowledge?

You will breathe, get support and DB. You will stop babysitting OW D, you will have hurt but you will have space to move on. I understand you wanting to maintain the status quo, and you use the word crazy.

You use this word crazy, you cry it out over and over wanting to be heard because the pretend life you live is different from the reality. Google the word gas lighting and know what this is doing to your soul. This dissonance and failure to see reality. This wanting something different from the reality is normal, it is usual for LBS.

I hear you Msd, I would like you to face the reality, to cry with pain for loss, for I truly believe this will release you. Call this A from the roof tops, be real, know the love Msd has for herself. Find a safe person and go cry with anger for the reality. No longer be isolated in real life. Forget about saving face and save yourself from further harm.

Msd then the word crazy will be only a word again.

V

[mustardseed]

Thank you V. I don't know what to do today. Ow d is coming over. I have no idea what h's plans are. I have work to do and dont feel like driving out to my parents. I was going to take d out there yesterday until she made these plans. Her friendship with this girl has never been this close before. In the 10 years they have known each other this girl has been to our house maybe 4 times. And my d has never gone to hers until ow family affair that was meant to include h. I don't know how to handle this situation. I won't say no to d. But I feel like I'm being played. I just went back and reread my threads from the beginning. I wish I just let go back then. i wish I never gave in to h's affection and believed things were getting better. I wish I never stopped DBing.

So what is the DB way to handle this. Not be around while ow's d is here and have him deal with it? I just have so much to do and I don't want to leave the kids the this weekend since I wasn't with them last weekend. Or stick around get my work done and keep up a pma? I feel like I want to just ruin his plans. Make things awkward for him. But part of me wonders how much of this is tgere doing to make it awkward for me. He wants to get out of paying child support. My L told me 25% of his salary was standard but his L must have told him something different. He told me he told his L how I was ambushing him in front of the kids every morning. I always bring things up when the kids aren't around but his double talk and avoidance usually drags things out until they are eavesdropping. I'm not going to get any answers. I have no control over anything that is happening anymore, and I don't know where my boundaries should be with this.

[mustardseed]

I was posting from my phone before so I didn't get to address your questions which I know is useful for helping me get past this.

Msd

It appears that it is the not knowing that is the problem. That it is the living in a position of hidden A, an insecure position. Is it or isn't it?
Not knowing is definitely part of what is making me crazy. The thing is that I don't think I will ever have an answer that satisfies me. I want to believe it is an EA or PA because then at least I will know I wasn't creating a villain to help me understand what has been going on. The friendship trumps our relationship--at least at this point in time and that is painful enough. Knowing it was an A at least makes me feel justified in my jealousy about the friendship. But I believe that my jealousy has put me in a bad position because they are able to use it to their advantage, whether it is an A or not.
How can you be sure?I don't think I ever will be. If it is just a friendship or EA I will never have adequate proof. If it was a PA, well, honestly a PA doesn't really cause the same amount of pain as the EA or friendship does. If it is a PA I know it will just crash and burn on its own. But the friendship or EA is the piece that has me feeling so betrayed. It is the friendship thrown in my face that keeps twisting the knife and is keeping me behaving badly. I need to stop letting it hurt. I need it to stop effecting me. Somehow if it was a PA I think I could move on a lot easier. I know that our sex life and physical attraction was never the issue. But the lack of friendship and intimacy was a vulnerable spot for us, and knowing he turned to someone else rather than trying to make it work with me is where the pain and betrayal lies.

It is the gas lighting and hidden nature?
Yes. When I read the definition of gaslighting, I think maybe we both do this to each other. He does it by withholding, not answering questions directly, double speak. very much like a politician. I think I might do it to, when I speaking emotionally. I don't really do it intentionally, but I just end up being all over the map and I end up contradicting myself or taking things back then bringing it up again. I end up being very confused and confusing. He seems a lot more deliberate with what he does. I keep trying to get answers but always end up more confused.

Who knows or thinks they know?
Only they know. If anyone else does, they won't tell. There is no one who will be able to give me the answers I need--except for them and they are playing games with me right now. He assures me he isn't. He just wants to be left alone. But I am pretty sure she is. D asked me yesterday of OWd could come over. I said yes. I noticed on D's phone that OWd was the one who invited herself over and told d to have H call her mom. This whole thing seems orchestrated to me. They live almost an hour away. It doesn't make sense to have weekend play dates and it has never happened before.

I am absolutely convinced that it is this denial by Msd. The insecurity of not wanting this to be true. That your H is saying selfishly that this scuzzy W is not an OW. In the meanwhile you are babysitting her daughter.I'm not so sure that I don't want it to be true because the friendship in and of itself hurts as much as any affair. I think that I want to know so that I feel justified in feeling the way I feel. I want confirmation that I am right, not that I am wrong. The only way I will be satisfied with being wrong is if it comes with tons of assurances the I am the only woman for him and he feels awful that this friendship made me feel this way. That isn't going to happen. And if it isn't going to happen then I would rather believe that this is an affair that will run its course, rather than a friend that gets to be involved in my family without me. This is pure clingyness on my part. I don't want to let go, but I have to.

Msd you are too good to your H. This friendship or EA or PA is wholly inappropriate and needs to stop.I feel the same way, but I have no control over that. Trying to control is the problem. I have to learn to let go of it. Stop making it my problem and let them run their course.

Msd you need peace from this, a space, a gap, this is not you being crazy, it is your sitch. There must be a way of confirming this to your own satisfaction. Msd as your DB friend I am convinced enough this is damaging to you. I am sure this is an R that you do not want to accept. An inappropriate R.I absolutely do not want to accept this R. But it is one of those things that I cannot control. The more I try the worse it gets. I don't think i will ever know the answer. Maybe once the D is final and I see how he moves on. But even then I will never know for sure.

This is untenable, you are asking yourself to live in this tension in order to maintain an illusion of hope. Your H selfishness with this inappropriate R is harmful to you as is your denial, the denial of harm. Living in denial and harm is amongst the worst damage you can do to yourself. Msd this is like living in an alternate universe, when you live with a gambler or a hidden alcoholic there is this illusion. So it is with a hidden A. I think I am living in denial. But I think the biggest denial I have right now is in believing there is a part of H that still cares about my well-being and feelings. Whether there is an A or not, H wants it hidden because it is causing me to behave badly and gives him leverage. He knows I want to know. Even if it isn't an A having me wonder gives him power.

Consider if this is a full on A what would you do? What evidence would satisfy you?I want to hear it from him. I think if it is a full on A and I get confirmation I will be able to let go and move on. It is the EA and friendship that makes it hard for me to let go. It is the knowledge that he is confiding in someone intimately who is very much involved in our children's lives separate from their relationship that brings out this mama bear, territorial instinct. That is what is making me behave in a way that is damaging to our relationship, to my self respect, and to our co-parenting relationship. If it was someone random, or even someone who knows our kids but doesn't have a relationship with them outside of him or us I don't think it would bother me so much. But it is these blurred lines of her being their teacher, us being mothers with Ds in the same class, her being his coworker, and their relationship that seems to have caused or was the result of their respective marital problems.

What will you do with the knowledge?
I think it will make me feel justified. I think it will allow me to just let go and move on. I know I need to do that anyway, but I am struggling because of all of the questions. I have to let go of having to know.

You will breathe, get support and DB. You will stop babysitting OW D, you will have hurt but you will have space to move on. I understand you wanting to maintain the status quo, and you use the word crazy.H, I, and OW made a deal that we will let the girls arrange their own play dates. They have agreed to that, and so now the plans are coming from them. It is a matter of us saying yes or no. If I am always the one to say no, then I am the getting in the middle of their friendship and I am the bad guy. I say yes. I wonder if I should stick around or leave. H will be in and out just like he was yesterday when she was over. I probably will be in and out to. It is supposed to be a beautiful day. Maybe I will take the dog to the dog park.

You use this word crazy, you cry it out over and over wanting to be heard because the pretend life you live is different from the reality. Google the word gas lighting and know what this is doing to your soul. This dissonance and failure to see reality. This wanting something different from the reality is normal, it is usual for LBS.

I hear you Msd, I would like you to face the reality, to cry with pain for loss, for I truly believe this will release you. Call this A from the roof tops, be real, know the love Msd has for herself. Find a safe person and go cry with anger for the reality. No longer be isolated in real life. Forget about saving face and save yourself from further harm.

Msd then the word crazy will be only a word again.

V

Thank you V. I have been crying to people. Too many people. I think that is part of why I am so ashamed. He says I am badmouthing him. I say I am trying to get answers and figure out what is going on. He isn't giving me anything and keeps telling me he doesn't have to. I get that he doesn't have to, but if he wants me to let go and move on then all he has to do is tell me what I need to know. It is a game. I have to be the first one to stop playing. I keep pushing button A and getting the same results. 180s need to be the way I go, but right now I don't even know what the 180 is since I feel like I have just been all over the map with how I handled things. I am spinning and getting no where. I need to take a step and move past this spot but I can't tell which way to step.

This morning I asked if OW got in touch with him about her d coming over because I was going to send a text to her and I wanted to be on the same page. He couldn't even give a straight answer for that. All he said is, "the girls arranged this, you can text her to find out the time." So I pushed, asked if she texted him at all about this. He just kept saying, "I know nothing, find out the time." Anyway, I don't know why it was so important for me to know if she contacted him about it. It doesn't give me any information except that she continues to bypass me with all of these plans. Finally he told me that yes she did mention that her d wanted to come over, but he doesn't want to be involved. I texted her to get the time. She hasn't responded, but I guess it is still early for a weekend. He hasn't mentioned if she got in touch with him since my text, and I know that he won't tell me. That is why I have to stop caring. I have to let go. I am trying to get control where I have none.

It has been a while since I have gone to an alanon meeting. Maybe it is time to get back there. My IC isn't helping me to let go.

[Fogg]

If you do get the confirmation of PA would you be able to let go of the other "why" questions? I've found myself wanting to know if W has been physical also recently. I'm not sure what that will honestly do for me after the initial shock/pain wears off some. Part of me thinks it would help letting go/moving forward, another part thinks I would just obsess about it happening way too much.

[mustardseed]

I don't know if it will stop the questions. I think I want to know for self-righteous reasons. I'm probably better off not knowing and not wanting to know. Anyway, today's situation kind of took care of itself. I'm still mind reading here but h must have told ow to talk to me about the plans. Ow will be at the school for about an hour this afternoon so rather than having her over for the day they will hang out either at our house or at the school. I feel sane again. I went for a run. First run since September. My time was slow but I am proud that I stuck it out for the full time. While I was running it dawned on me that I do t need to feel justified in my feelings. They are my feelings and they are legit. It's my reaction to them that I am trying to justify, but behaving badly is behaving badly wnd there is no justification for that. Now how do I keep reminding myself of this as I proceed?

[Fogg]

You could try to take a moment before you speak out and ask yourself what it would accomplish. Why are you wanting to ask what your asking and what could be the outcomes. It does take a lot of self control, but its possible. You already know hes not giving you any answers, or none that will satisfy you, so all its doing is hurting you.

I had to face this myself a while back because I kept directing any relationship talks we had to OM and asking about it. She would open up quite a bit about it eventually, even telling me she asked him to pick between his girlfriend and her and he choose his girlfriend. She also said something along the lines of "whatever its his loss, hes the one who's going to regret this and be miserable". Its then I somewhat realized I might not ever really get the answer I was looking for. I also realized just how far into a fantasy she is so mind reading is pointless.

I realized I needed to set a boundary, but it was with myself. I wouldn't talk about OM to W or discuss him unless it directly involved setting another boundary. I slipped up last week, but it happens. None of us are perfect.

[Vanilla]

Msd

These are your feelings, and you are entitled to them. 100% and more. You need never apologise for your feelings or justify them. Please do not deny them to yourself. You are clear to me. Your answers have clarified a great deal. Thank you.

This tension is untenable and is creating issues for you which it is ok for you to resolve. I now understand more, yes there is denial and not of the type I believed need clarifying.

Msd this EA is tacky and OW is a tacky horrid little scuzz. You can think of her as such and need not engage with her. She is less than you a downgrade on a wonderful wife such as Msd.

As a boundary you may state that if her interference with your daughters social and education life continues you may discuss the matter of breach of professional ethics unofficially. State that you are considering a change of schools for D and want to evaluate this. You can if you feel that this is for the best.

It is likely that OW colleagues are more than aware if there is an EA. In these sitches it is usually the OW that has to move on. This scuzzy is unprofessional at the very least.

Msd think about what you want to do and not what others want. Do what is best for you and your D.

Firstly, you are NOT crazy! You are being gaslighted even as your instincts say you are and things are unclear. This tension is unreasonable and your H wants it this way. Your gut reaction seems correct. Clearly you would be best if the truth were known.

Secondly, if you prefer to prevent your D play dates in your home do so. There is no reason why you can not limit your D friendships to those of your choosing. Unsuitable friends are unsuitable friends. Say "no" and let others resolve it.

You can try the elastic band technique and pinging it on your wrist as a reminder. That helped me keep screaming banshee in order for a long while. it is a classic CBT and straight from the manual, eventually it was unneeded but it worked.

Consider a new IC if this one is no longer helping you. As long as you need fresh eyes and ears then it's good to change the therapy and therapist. Do that which you need to do.

If I were Msd then my job considerations would come first for a short while.

Ignore if H is a master at manoeuvres with regard to Legal stuff. Msd your own counsel would be wise as you wear your heart on your sleeve. Even if H is irritated that does not matter, Msd has feelings too.

You do not have to do anythidng, you can do whatever you damn well please whenever you want. If you want to contact OW then do so, whenever you want to about whatever pleases you. Make your own mind up about it, it is ok, you need not apologise for it.

Make as much fuss as you want whenever you want to. Do this as a plan, a strategy, not to be nasty or make wild accusations, use the truth as a sword, it is your friend. Instead of being random be deliberate. You have your suspicions if they are neither confirmed nor denied then you have the right to discover and uncover the truth. That has to be better than where you are at the moment and would be a 180. This feeling of craziness can be resolved.

Otherwise be silent hold your own counsel as a tactic. Think of yourself as a secret agent on an undercover mission. If you want truth then you can have it, if it were V she would want this. It is not unreasonable, you could consider a three way meeting with this OW and H, they may or may not agree. Msd take care of you. You are worth it.

Msd the tide of feeling is turning in your favour you know this. Slowly slowly beginning to change. The edge of hopelessness is gone, Msd I am so very proud of you that I smile as I type this.

Your DB friend

V

[Vanilla]

Sorry fat finger syndrome again, posted too soon.

It suddenly occurred to me that H and OW may be trying to manage their way to the end of term.

V