This can't be the end! #2

[Barry]

Morning all,
I don't know when to make a new thread so I'll make one now i guess?

Previous thread

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...219#Post2531219

Just a small update this morning to say I'm feeling a bit better, not really because of any changes, just that I'd worked myself into such a state on Sunday that I felt completly drained yesterday. I looked terrible so tried to get some sleep earlier than usual.

That particular dip on the coaster was a real gut-churner!

I'm taking at least 2 of the kids bowling tonight (awaiting confirmation on a 3rd), D15 not coming as she's invited her boyfriend round for dinner with her and W. Gutted I'm missing that TBH, but I can't change it. I did text W to say I was inviting the kids to go bowling (more so she didn't make them dinner as we'll eat out) and asked her if she wanted to come too - not to talk about R at all, just for some fun. I made it clear that we would be going either way.

She say she wouldn't, she's out running this evening and then obviously having dinner with D15. I just said ok and left it at that.

Barry.

[Cadet]

I don't know when to make a new thread so I'll make one now i guess?

You had 90 posts on your last thread and they ask you to start a new one at 100.

So welcome to your new thread.

New threads bring change.
Hope yours is in a positive direction, keeping the
focus on YOU!

[theoden]

Barry,

there's a post from me on your last thread that just showed up, since this thread is under moderation.

[Train]

Checking in, Barry. Give us an update when you can.

[Barry]

Thanks for linking the old/new threads Cadet.
There were a few posts on my old one after I made this so for those that are avidly following my sitch, here's the link..

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2531819&page=10

Thanks Toots and Theoden for your input on the list I made. I see what you mean about the "never" part in No.4 - ("Never again will I open my heart to anyone the way I have previously"). I agree that it should probably be more like "It will take time and effort to trust anyone again". It just doesn't feel that way right now.

Sorry everyone, I'd love to be able to just post about myself and my future on this new thread but I can't at the moment.
That day will come, but as it stands (and as sad and pathetic as it sounds) I'm really finding it hard to envisage a future without my W.

There's no change at all in my sitch. My W wouldn't notice (or probably care either) if I disappeared in a puff of smoke.
In fact, it feels like she would probably throw a party.

The most frustrating thing for me is that we've been together all of our adult lives, she's the mother of my children and after everything we've been through, all the hardships and good times, to treat me like this is obviously a deliberate attempt to goad me into feeling anger towards her so that it makes the whole process easier (for her).

Don't get me wrong, I do have a spine, and balls. It's more that I know anger won't help the situation any more than the begging, pleading, crying etc won't. The more time goes by with us being S though, the higher the chance of an OM coming along becomes.
I'm not a violent man, but I am capable of it and I'm worried I won't be able to control myself if/when that happens.
I'm certainly much more likely to get like that rather than sit back and let some guy F*** my wife whilst they laugh at me.

More than anything, It's her indifference to the whole sitch that's killing me right now.
She doesn't want to see me, speak to me, text me, message by carrier pigeon/smoke signals...nothing.

I know I can't because it's pursuing and it'll push her away even more (that's not actually possible), but all I can think about it asking her to meet with me so I can be with her, even if for only a few moments. I haven't initiated any contact at all either.

I'm (STILL!!) waiting for DB to come in the post, but I've read on this forum several times to "Do what works". This radio silence is clearly not working, she's just forgetting about me and hoping that I forget about her and our M and "get over it".
It'll be 6 weeks on Friday since BD, in which time we've had little to no contact and hardly spoken about the R or M at all.

My questions for today are, how long should this go on for before doing something different, and what should that be?
Is there anything I CAN actually do, apart from just moving on and writing off all my hopes and dreams?

Barry.

[Barry]

I should add that all of the above is just for you guys. Outwardly, I'm being the confident, strong person I should be!

And Hi Train, thanks for checking in on me
Still having up and down days to be honest.

Barry.

[hjoseph]

Barry,
I am new here and not as knowledgeable as the veterans like Train, Sandi and Starsky. However, I have been reading theirs posts for months and the consistent message has been to give yourself time, this is not for her but for you and what you need to do will be counterintuitive to what you want to do.

We all understand what you are going through for we've been there. Don't focus so much to what W is doing and what she might be thinking. It will drive you insane and of course to where DB/DR is taking you.

To answer your concerns:
-The W you knew is gone. Your past with her is the past. She does not care about what you guys been through together. She is focused on her future and so should you.
-W is sending you clear signals through her actions. She does not need to make it explicit nor does she want to. You need to reply back to the messages/signals she is sending you with actions of your own. I call it mental jiu jitsu.
-To reiterate the veterans, the skills you will learn here will change you and not her. It will change how you interact with her and that will change the way she interacts with you because she is not used to the new you. She is expecting you to react or act like how you've always had in the past.

You asked what to do different. I hate to say this, but situation will dictate what you need to do. Do the basic until you notice the changes in her caused by the changes you've made to yourself. You will notice that your actions will cause her to come closer to you. Found out which action caused that by monitoring and continue to do what works.

The skills thought here will lead you feel like the Barry before M or close to it. Independent and confident Barry. You will cease to wonder about W. You will start enjoying your new life and other women will take notice of your confidence. You might even start feeling attracted to other women. Everyone around you will notice the new you. Your W will notice and she might even be attracted to the new you. W might even ask herself : did I make the right choice by leaving my H?

This is marathon and not a sprint. Continue the course and good luck.

Disclaimer: I maybe way off base. I am a newbie. I am still learning from the vets. They might even correct some of what I said.

[hjoseph]

We all love our W's or we would not be here. We all could not see a life without them when we were hurting. R and piecing is not guaranteed. The changes in you will prepare you for what may happen. It maybe to make you a better H for someone else.

My motto through my sitch has been: If W does not want me back, I will be the person that will make her regret not giving me a second chance.

[Barry]

Hi all,

Spoke to W tonight funnily enough.

S18's brakes failed in his car tonight (he had the car booked into the garage on the morning to get them fixed). He's ok, but narrowly avoided a crash by managing to rub the tyres against the kerb to slow the car down - he wasn't going high speed. W sent me a long text saying about it, but I wanted to talk to her about it to make sure he was ok obviously.

We talked about the incident and I offered to let him have my car (small car and he's a young driver - the UK insurance costs are crazy for teen drivers on anything bigger than mine). I was getting a new one soon anyway just for a change but he needs one now and his has had enough money spent on it.
Besides that, I will now cycle (as I used to) to work which is about 50 miles per week...all helps in my training for the big ride sometime in the future .

We were both pleasant enough during the call, but as it's been a while, I just said towards the end that it was nice to hear her voice. She said thanks, and I asked her if she thought it was a good idea if we started to talk more instead of just texting. I said I would prefer that, especially if it's important things like the above (I don't want to be toldy S18 has crashed his car by text) I didn't say that.

She said she knows that we need to start to communicate. I left it there, told her to get S18 to look at car insurance tomorrow, said goodnight and ended the call.

It was good to speak to her. I have no expectations in any way but it's a step, however small. I was more pleased with how I conducted the call to be honest.
I was confident, concise, suggestive on how to resolve the problem with a minimum of fuss, asked the right (open) questions to get her to speak. I was conscious not to make her feel like I was stalling on the last part to keep her there, and I ended the call well.

I reall felt like a DB'r for the first time tonight.

Barry.

[Barry]

Even though I shouldn't care, I'm fairly sure that W is out on the town tomorrow night with her friend. This is the same friend (of mine as well apparantly) who I confided in last week. Of course, she told W everything I said the vindictive [censored] [censored]. I'm not going to bother trying to use this to my advantage at the moment by feeding only info I want to get back. I'm so angry that she told her absolutly everything that I don't want to speak to her at all right now. Probably for the best.

It's not that she's going out that bothers me per se, I've never really had a problem with that as it was only every couple of months that she would do it.
It wasn't like it was a weekly event.

It's that she'll be out, drunk probably, at 3am, in a club, with no wedding ring on, guys trying to dance with her and "pull" her, and with her feeling free and liberated from me and our marriage. I'm not saying she will go off with the first guy she sees, it's more that it's an opportunity to meet someone.

I liken it to keep taking a child into a sweet shop, and although they say they don't want any sweets right now....

Anyway, without stalking her myself or hiring a Private Investigator, I'm never going to know what she gets up to now, and frankly, it's not my concern.
No one wants to be made a fool of though.

Barry.

[LoveMyW]

I'm not a violent man, but I am capable of it and I'm worried I won't be able to control myself if/when that happens.
I'm certainly much more likely to get like that rather than sit back and let some guy F*** my wife whilst they laugh at me.

Hey Barry!!.. I'm going to fully catch up on your sitch shortly, but this comment you made has had me wanting to respond straight away..

Due to an old way of life and job I used to work, I HAD to be violent at times if the situation required it because it was a case of "it's either them or me".. Needless to say, I do know what I am doing in these situations, and I have seen and experienced things that no man/woman ever should..

Controlling it boils down to detachment with your W.. Flying off the hammer at OM or W isn't going to do anything positive for you.. Think of all the negatives and their repercussions though and see why I say that.. You seem like a smart enough fella and have already thought about that though!!..

About the OM laughing at you, I had feelings of the same thing initially, and you know what??.. I realised I was the one laughing at him..

Why??.. Well I had my W for the best years of her life, gave her her first child, first marriage and longest relationship by far as a surface scratcher.. What can OM give that I can't/haven't??.. A fresh face and that's about it.. He can't give my W her firsts, and nor can he duplicate ANYTHING we have done in our past.. He will NEVER be able to live up to me and is basically living in my shadow..

W may not see it like that, but the facts are on the table and that's all YOU have to look at if OM enters the picture.. Who will be laughing at who then??.. You will both probably be laughing at each other, but your laugh will have much more substance!!..

Just think, any time OM looks at your kids he is looking at YOU!!.. I could keep going, but you get the idea!!..

Stay strong buddy!!..

[Barry]

Thanks LMW,

I know it wouldn't help and would almost certainly end any chances of a civil relationship with my W in the future. I guess every LBS thinks about it though.
I guess it's the feeling powerless to stop it that drives my anger about it.

As I say, it doesn't appear to be the case at the moment and maybe it won't get to that stage but after reading so many people's sitch's on this forum, I know that the likelihood is fairly high that it WILL happen. I shouldn't focus on it until it does as it does nothing positive for my mental state.

You're so right about all the firsts etc.
I just dont want them to be lasts as sad as that sounds.

Anyway, enough thoughts of that for now. I'm off out for a run, meeting with S13 this afternoon for a bit then need to help S18 sort the change of car out.

I met D15's boyfriend last night too, he seems a nice lad. She's a lot like her Mother so at least I know if he does anything wrong, she'll probably kick him to the curb! She seems quite smitten at this stage obviously.

I must step up my GAL activities, they have stalled a little in the last week.

Barry.

[Barry]

Meeting with W for coffee in an hour.
I'm actually a bit nervous inside but won't let that show to her obviously.
I must remember the advice on here and think "what would the vets say".

We won't be talking about the R (unless she brings it up in any way of course but if she does, I'll just validate etc) but it's a small step in the right direction after 6 weeks of LC/NC. I must make her laugh, that's important and show confidence etc. So what if it's a bit fake at the moment, so long as it's believable!

Will update later.

[Barry]

Ok, so a mixed meeting with W. Sorry, this may be a long post as I want to journal this.

We met and spent half an hour or so chit chatting about the kids, our extended family's news and what we've been up to etc. We were both relatively open about things, but I obviously kept some details back as per DB'ing. It was all very civil if not somewhat guarded from both of us.

She then asked if I wanted to go for a walk for a bit. We did talk about the R (she brought it up), and I just listened as much as I could, kept eye contact, validated, and asked the right questions. The gist of the whole conversation was that she doesn't feel any different about things, she is happier being by herself, and doesn't think we should be together for both our sakes. She doesn't see that changing and doesn't want me to feel like I'm just waiting for her to come around. She said if that was the case, we will put the house up for sale tomorrow and go our own ways. (She obviously sees selling the house the same way I do in that it will be a major step towards permanent S and D if we sell it).

She said that she hasn't sought any legal council and asked me if I had. I said no. As I've mentioned before, by UK law, we'd have to be S for 2 years before we can D, and we can work out the details in that time by ourselves if we can't R.

We then sat in my car for a while to continue the discussion. I said that I was disappointed that she was no longer wearing her rings. She said that they just didn't mean what they did to her (as well as being too big now - she looks to have lost weight). I just said that I understood but that I would continue to wear mine as we are still married and I that I am still standing.

She told me that the biggest thing to have changed over the last year is her, and she is really only thinking of her own happiness at the moment. I said that I could relate to that. She said that the pressure of me putting her above myself was stifling and too much to bear for her. I agreed and said that I understand how that would have made her feel.
She said that I must also have been happier since this happened without her making me miserable and I had to disagree to some extent. I said that I missed the kids, her, my home, my dog, and my life (if not so much the old feelings associated with it) and that because I don't feel the same as her in wanting to end things, I wasn't happy. I said that I had come to realise that I will be OK without her and that it was no longer a case that I needed to be with her, it was that I wanted to. It's not what she wants though.

She said that she's totally aware that this time is all we've ever wanted, dreamed of and worked towards..when the kids were older and we'd have "our time". She said that she is sad about it too because now we're here, she doesn't want it.
(I thought I could see a slight welling of the eyes here but she stopped it quickly).

She mentioned her best friend, and told me a couple of things that I'd said to her when I'd visited. I said that I wouldn't be doing that any more whilst we are S. Not because I don't like her (I don't as it happens) but that she is really only my friend by association and I didn't want things to be difficult for her. I did say that I was disappointed that she told her everything, but W said that it was more a case that she (W) had asked about certain things and her friend wouldn't lie or not tell the truth etc. That's fine, I know where I stand with the sitch there now so I will leave well alone.

She confirmed that she is out on the town tonight with her friend, but said that it was just that, and not a night out trying to meet anyone. She's happy on her own.
This lead me to say that I was concerned that as the weeks and months go by, this is going to change and she'll eventually meet someone. She just said "you might too", to which I said that I wouldn't be dating anyone, I don't want anyone else.
She didn't encourage me to, she just said that I was handsome and a good man and that I wouldn't have trouble with it should I want to. ** I'm thinking, check what you're saying W, if I'm such a catch..you can have me!!

She asked me if I really understood her when she said that as it stands, our M is over, done, finished, and that she doesn't see a way back. I said I did. (I was dying inside at this point - all I wanted to do was beg and plead etc, but thought of what I would have to tell you guys later!!).

I asked her if she understood ME when I said that I don't think that the problems we've had are insurmountable, and that I still loved her (I was trying not to say that but it slipped out) and wanted us to try and R. I said that I was aware that it may take a long time, and that there were no guarantees that it would work but that I wanted both of us to be able to look back on this and say we gave it every chance. She said she did.

I said that it was nice to see her, and asked if maybe we could do it again sometime, without all the R talk as we are nowhere near ready (if we ever will be) to do that. She said yes, but that I was not to consider it a "date day" in any way. I said I didn't and that I had no expectations.
I said that I would wait for her to initiate an invitation for our next meet-up (ok, ok, today's coffee was my idea - sorry guys) and she said that would be fine with her and she would be in touch. We had some final talk on some finance matters, I said have a nice time tonight and left.

I'm out myself tonight, but I'm going to a nearby city rather than the local town so we won't bump into each other.

My thoughts on this are that I can see it in her eyes that she is done with this M right now. Barring a miracle, she's not going to change her mind by ANY actions that I take. I won't give up hope entirely though and will continue with the DB ethos. Although this will see me in good stead for my future, I really don't think that it's going to work in drawing her back to me. That makes me sad of course but I'm also feeling more confident that I will be alright whatever happens.

Thoughts on how I did, or the sitch in general anyone?
All feedback welcome, but to the vets that have been following my story in particular...what do you think?

Barry.

[rd500]

Not a vet Barry but you seem to do great. Tough for you to hear that from M but there is always hope. Keep o. Dbing and stay strong

Take care. Rd

[Mozza]

Not a vet. I'd say that for a beginner, you did very well. You seem to be good at learning and applying new lessons. It will serve you well.

I think you still pursued a little too much, but maybe you can undo that later, since you're very early in the sitch. What attracts the WAW eventually is the impression of losing something great. That means you need to look great and like she's losing you. Be yourself, be natural, but also be the best yourself you can be.

A lot of what she says about the marriage being over might be sincere, but it's also script. Use it to help you detach and focus on you. Remember that DBing is pretty much doing the same thing as if you were giving up, except that you're keeping the road to reconciliation open.

Have a healthy reflection on whether you were happy in this M. Yes, she took the initiative, but it's also possible that she has opened a door for you to a much better life. If it's too hard to consider now, give yourself a "safe space" of 10 minutes where you really consider it, knowing you can come back to your current thinking afterwards. It works for me.

Good luck.

[Barry]

Thanks RD and Mozza.

It was really tough to hear her say as most of the emotional stuff we'd had over Xmas was clouding the messages (both ways) whereas this was two adults, talking quite calmly about something awful like the destruction of our M.
I did trip up a few times in saying the wrong thing or pursuing but I couldn't help it. She understood how difficult it was to hear for me and she wasn't being cold or callous about it at all like I'd experienced previously. She was just trying to be honest with me, and herself in saying that she feels that this M has run its course.

I still have a very faint glimmer of hope. I could see it in her today that she was genuinely sad about doing this, and although it's mind reading, I think there still may be a bit of doubt in there somewhere. It was almost like she was as much trying to convince herself as much as me that this is for the best.

You're right Mozza, in that I need to use this to detach.
I'm not giving up on this, but I really do have to face the facts that this is more than likely not going to go the way I'd like, and that I'm probably going to be a 40 year old ex-husband some time soon. I'm gutted about that.

Barry.

[Mozza]

Even if it's not meant to be in this order, my priorities would probably still be 1) children, 2) wife, 3) me. That's just the way I'm built.

Have you been recommended "No More Mr Nice Guy"? I'm reading it at the moment and there's a section that explains why this sorting of priorities is likely to make you lose your W and kids. There are a few other clues in your posts that tell me you would benefit from reading this book and the perspective it would give you about yourself. Also, it's very often recommended around here and informs the philosophy of several vets.

[Barry]

I haven't read it Mozza, but I've see it mentioned on other threads.
I'll get it and give it a read, thanks for the recommendation.

[Train]

I think that's a great book suggestion for you, Barry.

[Barry]

My DB book came today. It's too late, W text'd me today saying that there's no way we are ever going to be together again, and that no amount of time seperated or any changes we make are going to help.

It's over.

[Tarheel]

A popular saying around here- “Believe none of what you hear, and only half of what you see.”

[Mozza]

My DB book came today. It's too late, W text'd me today saying that there's no way we are ever going to be together again, and that no amount of time seperated or any changes we make are going to help.

It's over.

Excellent: you got a final answer. You're lucky you got such clarity so early because most of us get a "We'll get back together if you are consistent with your changes." or "I want to be separated for 8.5 months, pretend it's over and then we'll get back together." and then we go on for months not knowing if they told us the truth, if they could really predict the future. But in your case, she knows the future, she never changes her mind, so let's move on. Hopefully, you can return the book. It was nice having you around and good luck!

Next!

[rd500]

Hi mate. Sorry you had to hear that but as the book will tell you, what you have heard is not un common. Read the book and I hope it's gives you some guidance. There is always hope. Don't react , give yourself time to think. M m


Take care. Rd

[Barry]

I don't really know how to take your post Mozza?

[Mozza]

How's your wife' statement different from that of any other sitch here?

[hjoseph]

Barry,
You can choose to believe it's not over and continue to fight. I've read of couples piecing after D was filed. If that is your choice, you will have to fully commit to what you will learn here.

Also, you can choose to accept what she texted.

Fortuitously, both options will require you to do the exact same thing. LET HER GO. Live for you and only then you will have the tools necessary to either piece your M back together or move on to someone else. Read the advices on this board and put them in your tool box.

I don't know what advice the vets will give you. My advice to you is to immediately cease contact. You just received your pink slip as a H. If you can't seem happy around her about being fired, fake it. Look as if you've moved on. It will be hard, but it will do you wonders for your self-esteem. As men, it means a lot to us to be wanted so its important to detach from her and seek something else to replace that need.

She only be attracted to you if you look attractive.

Good luck and good hunting.

[Sotto]

Hi Barry - sorry you had to hear that from your W. As you'll read in the book, WAS's tend to talk in 'absolutes' - much as your W is doing - This is it for us. We'll never get back together etc. The ultimate outcome may be quite different - you just don't know that yet.

It's early days yet and read the book. It will help you understand this further. Also, the book may help you develop a more optimistic approach. On this forum, you sometimes present an air of hopelessness - an area you could work on for sure. This may be what Mozza is referring to in his posts above (sorry if that's not the case Mozza.)

Hang on in there and keep posting....I want to see determined, optimistic Barry....

[paul19510]

Barry...just soak it in for now. Things change...let it be for a bit. Keep reading. Yes No More Mister Nice Guys is a great read and is cheap. Ebook available

[Barry]

Thanks for your responses all.

Mozza, I wasn't trying to say that my sitch is somehow special, different, or more important than anyone else's here? I'm sorry if my post sounded hopeless, but my W is so stubborn, I really don't think she'll change her mind. She'll see it as a form of weakness that she "backed down" after telling anyone who would listen that we're splitting up. It may not be hopeless, but it sure seems that way.

I'll read the book, it's paid for now, maybe there will be something in it for me. Will look at getting NMMNG too.

Barry.

[MrBond]

All of our spouses said the same thing to us at some point. Read the book. It'll be an eye-opener.

From what it seems like, your W is in a typical MLC. She's about at the right age. What have you been doing for yourself to get your "swagger" back?

[Mozza]

Barry, you're right: your sitch is not special. You might not have tried to suggest that it is, not consciously, but you decided that your sitch was over based on one text. One banal text that every vet has received and worst. People who R have gone through restraining orders, moves abroad, divorces, custody fights, screaming, family involvement, etc. You receive one text and you're out. Maybe you're not cut out for this and that's fine. No one here is pushing you to stay in your M. No one will judge you.

But if you want to save your M, you will need an attitude adjustments. You will need to realize that no one can predict the future, especially not the two of you who are D after 20 years of M and four kids. Unless that was the plan all along?

You will need to learn to weather these pronouncements. There will be many more. Your WAW will seek a sense of liberation from your M, so she will take many steps that will look like the end of it. And it might turn out to be, but you just don't know that today. Especially not based on one text.

I'm sorry if my post sounded hopeless, but my W is so stubborn, I really don't think she'll change her mind. She'll see it as a form of weakness that she "backed down" after telling anyone who would listen that we're splitting up. It may not be hopeless, but it sure seems that way.

Barry, did your W tell everyone she was getting married twenty years ago? Did she ever change her mind on this? Well, I think she just did. So tell me again: how stubborn is she? Is she only stubborn in your mind when it fits your pessimistic narrative?

I suggest you read a couple of success stories. See the top of my threads. It's not the usual one-paragraph thanks-for-saving-my-M, it's links to the original threads where you see people going through every stage. Then you will realize what you and your W got yourself into at BD.

You can also continue to follow my sitch where I sometimes explain why I remain steadfast.

Finally, DB is about saving yourself while going through D. You will not lose anything by following DB through it. You will gain guidance, support, composure, pride, and energy. You GAL to be happy, you detach because you have no other choice. You remain cordial with your W because the alternative is not helping you. You set boundaries and avoid controlling because it's the only right you got.

Perhaps it would help you if you imagined the complete arc of your R, starting from now. How would it happen? Do you imagine, tomorrow, receiving flowers with an apology letter and renewing your vows in April? If not, what are the steps you see ahead on the path to R?

Perhaps it's a good thing that you feel it's over because it will help you detach. If so, then good. But if it means you'll stop DB, with all that it implies, that's when you might get into more trouble than it's worth.

Again, if you want to abandon, nobody will judge you.

[Train]

Everyone's right, Barry.

I've had TWO BDs, eight years apart. And H said the VERY SAME THINGS both times:

"I am NOT coming back."
"Our M is OVER."
"I've been miserable for 10 years!"
"I don't want to BE here anymore."
"I don't love you anymore."
"I've NEVER been in love with you."
"I never wanted to marry you."

He was even more emphatic during/after BD2, saying he just KNEW he had made a mistake coming home the first time; in fact, he said he only came home after BD1 "out of convenience." And he said, after BD2, that there was NO WAY he'd make that "mistake" again. He may have had to "learn his lesson twice," but he had "REALLY" figured out "THIS time" that he was NOT going to stay M to me!!

And guess what, Barry? 2.5 months after making all those grand proclamations - 2.5 months after he SWORE he would never come back to our M and our family - he was ... wait for it ... back home. (It's been almost a year since BD2, and our M is happier - and STRONGER - than ever. It's been a hard, curvy, bumpy road, but we're committed to walk it together.)

I'm glad you're reading your book; it will help the things we've been telling you make more sense.

Man up, Barry.

[Barry]

I've just had such a hard time the last few days. I was sad and upset.
I know there are many people here have much worse sitch's than mine, so I didn't mean to belittle anyone else. I haven't seen my kids for a few days, they're all busy with their own lives and their friends. I text them and ring them often, but it just got to the point earlier that it felt I'd lost everything. My wife, my home, my kids, my dog, my car, my life.

I'm sorry I vented my sadness here.

I walked round to see my daughter, she was the only one home (my W was in obviously) but I just saw my daughter out in the street. I miss everything about my life, not the one from any point last year, but before all this started happening...the good times. They weren't that long ago.

I will read the book, and no Mozza, I won't be chucking the towel in just yet.

I'll be back.

Barry

[MrBond]

"I'm sorry I vented my sadness here. "

Never apologize for this. Go ahead and vent away. This is the place to do it and not in front of your spouse.

[Train]

^^^ Exactly.

That's why we are here.

We are also here to give you a word of encouragement (a swift kick in the rear) when you need it.

Hang in there! Do something fun!

[Mozza]

Barry, I encourage you to look at how you communicate. You express your desires and emotions in very indirect and perhaps manipulative ways.

When you say "It's over" in fairly dramatic fashion over a text, is it possible that you want to say "This makes me feel sad", "I hope this does not mean it's over" or even "Please tell me that it's not over"?

When you write "I'm sorry I vented my sadness here" is it really what you mean? Do you see anywhere that people have told you "Do not vent your sadness here"? Is your response meant to make those who responded feel bad for making an unreasonable request on a person who's struggling? Do you even think that people suggest you belittle other sitches? If so, why do you interpret it the worst way?

For my part, I was trying to give you hope, to show you how desperate things can look at some point even in successful R. I think that's what everyone was trying to do.

Maybe you don't do it, maybe you do but subconsciously. I'm pointing at it because it might be communication patterns that affected your M. Not being able to express your needs directly is something you will learn about in No More Mr. Nice Guy.

--------------
Just a quick note: you're the same age as me yet you have four kids between the ages of 13 and 20. I'm very impressed.

[Train]

Great food for thought up there, Mozza.

[Barry]

Thank you everyone, and particularly you Mozza.

I wasn't trying to be manipulative at all - maybe you're right, perhaps I do need to look at how I communicate. I just typed what I felt at the time and what was said by my W (It was my W that had put the "Its over" in the text, not me).
When I said "Sorry I vented my sadness here", I was more meaning that I'm well aware that the people reading my posts are also going through a tough time, and I don't want to depress people by reading them. That has been mentioned to me before.

It wasn't with the intention to make anyone feel bad for the content of their replies.
I know I need to be stronger with all of this, I am trying.

Barry.

p.s. Thanks for the comment about the kids, it is fairly impressive I know

[Barry]

Hi all.
Just wanted to say thanks to everyone here who has taken time to help me in the last few weeks, I really do appreciate it.

Mozza, if I could just answer one of your questions above "What are the steps I see on the path to R". No, I don't expect there to be an easy fix to this. We've been through a sitch like this before (to a lesser extent admittedly) and although the underlying issues were obviously not addressed correctly, I do know it's hard work.
I would say that over the next "X" months, we would need to get to know each other again, as the people we've become. That's of course after we both figure out who we are for ourselves!! I'm sure there'll be lots of small steps to take before any talk of R, or "dating" can take place, and there'll have to be some very honest talk of each other's boundries. Maybe we won't/can't accept each other's, maybe we can...I don't know at this stage.

No change with W's views on things at this time, had NC since Saturday, but did meet with her this evening to sort out a financial matter and to discuss issues that S13 is having at school. There were some problems with him before the S, but it appears to have stepped up since. We've both spoken to him individually but were really just checking that we're both singing from the same hymn sheet...(we are).

There was some general chit chat about her night out last week, and she couldn't resist telling me that she's out this weekend too with her work colleagues (most of whom are around 10 years younger) who had told her she had to go). I'm sure it was meant to bug me as I have had controlling issues with the "clubbing" nights before. Not so much because she was going and I thought she would get up to anything untoward,, more that we never did it ourselves. My usual attitude towards it used to be.."No problem with it, but when is our turn?". I just said "that's nice, have a good time".

I did tell her she looked well, and that she looked slimmer (she does). She looked very attractive truth be told but of course, I don't voice this.

She didnt ask about what I'd been up to. This could stem from the fact that in our M, I've always been "the talker" out of the two, and I would usually be more than comfortable in letting her know about my recent GAL activities. At the end of the day, they are for me so if she doesn't ask, I won't bring it up. Bit of a 180 for me.

I did tell her that I'd managed to arrange for some IC through my employer (she already knew about me attending the Emotional Wellbeing course which starts in a couple of weeks time). She was glad that I've arranged the IC (that was something I would never have done before). Actually, she did ask if my meds were helping and one of the kids must have told her I haven't been sleeping well as she asked about that too (so not all negative!). I am looking forward to the IC, I think it will help me. I'm still hiding my pain and emotions under a very thin mask.

Still reading DB, and have already identified some of the relatable issues we've had in our M. I continue to wear my ring (she doesn't) so she knows I'm standing. She's well aware that I don't want this at all.

All in all, not a bad meet up.

Barry

[LisaB]

Excellent: you got a final answer. You're lucky you got such clarity so early because most of us get a "We'll get back together if you are consistent with your changes." or "I want to be separated for 8.5 months, pretend it's over and then we'll get back together." and then we go on for months not knowing if they told us the truth, if they could really predict the future. But in your case, she knows the future, she never changes her mind, so let's move on.

Mozza, this really made me laugh! Love it! I guess we share the sarcastic sense of humor.

Barry you are so LUCKY! You have amazing vets on here giving you good feedback and advice. I see a pattern in what they are all telling you. Do you?

And yes I too think you need to examine your attitude and responses on this forum. People are giving you amazing advice and feedback. And you come back with pitiful replies sometimes like "sorry to vent". We are all venting on here and whining and complaining. That's fine. What people are trying to say to help you is what are you going to do to get Barry back on track? They are trying to help you see ways you might be thinking in the wrong way or doing things in the wrong way that aren't going to help your situation.

Read back in the threads. Some of these people who are giving you tough love were the recipients of it themselves. And many are in a better place today whether reunited with their spouse or just happier and healthier. People are trying to help you. You are so lucky to have so many great people following your situation. Take advantage of this and ask their advice, take their advice! I wish I had so many vets helping me with my sitch.

Good luck Barry!

[Barry]

Hi Lisa, Thanks for stopping by my thread.

I'm aware that the advice I'm getting I'd sound, and I'm appreciative of any feedback and time given by anyone. I'm not going to lie, Mozza's post above did aggravate me at the time, even though the message being conveyed was accurate. Mozza has it spot on that we don't know the future and I was being very negative in my post it related to. As I did also post later about my "venting my sadness" comment, it was more me trying to say "sorry if I'm depressing people". This has been said to me before.
I just found that the sarcasm in the above post almost nullified the sound advice given if I'm being honest. If I wanted to sift through sarcasm to get to the real message, I'd talk with my W!!

I may well be be chastised for this but it sometimes seems to be ok to vent on the forum so long as the sad or "pitiful" comments are kept to a minimum and anger or resentment are the underlying tones. I appreciate that anyone commenting on such posts are only trying to help give an emotional 2x4 to the poster, it's sometimes the way it's done that I feel is a little harsh. As I've said before, the INtent is great, the CONtent could be worded better though. The same can be said for my own communication though so I should practice what I preach!!

As for Mozza in particular, I bear no grudges or ill will to him and I really do hope he continues to follow my sitch and post his helpful feedback. I've actually read all of his threads in the last couple of days. I did note that in Mozza 4, he also had some feedback regarding one of his posts that got what I felt was an unnecessary amount of negative comments back. By the end of the string, Mozza too had said he didn't want to talk about it any more. It seemed that people had picked up on a negative part of his post and wanted to keep bashing him about it no matter what reasoning he then tried to give for it. I have read many other peoples threads here in an attempt to understand my own. Some of them help, some don't. I take the good stuff and leave the rest.

I know I have some great people following me and giving good advice (although there hasn't been much in the last few days, which is fine of course, it gives me time to read DB anyway!). I am finding some very relatable material in the book which is helping, and I am looking at my attitude and how I communicate my thoughts and feelings.

Again, thank you.

Barry

[Mozza]

Hello Barry,

Thanks for the update on your sitch. I'll reiterate that I'm not a vet, I haven't succeeded at R ever, and just got here in October. Anything I say is to help you think, at best.

Mozza, if I could just answer one of your questions above "What are the steps I see on the path to R". No, I don't expect there to be an easy fix to this. We've been through a sitch like this before (to a lesser extent admittedly) and although the underlying issues were obviously not addressed correctly, I do know it's hard work. I would say that over the next "X" months, we would need to get to know each other again, as the people we've become. That's of course after we both figure out who we are for ourselves!! I'm sure there'll be lots of small steps to take before any talk of R, or "dating" can take place, and there'll have to be some very honest talk of each other's boundries. Maybe we won't/can't accept each other's, maybe we can...I don't know at this stage.

There's something missing in your story, something big. I'm tempted to let you think about it, but I'll say it: it's everything that happens before what you describe. You describe when the curve goes back up, but you're missing the "it gets worse before it gets better" part. I was trying, with my question, to make you realize that your sitch will go through some very difficult times, especially for you. Look around these boards and look at the success stories. Once you realize that, you might be calmer about what you're about to experience, knowing it's a normal phase of a longer process.

She didnt ask about what I'd been up to.

From my observations around here and in my sitch, it's mostly because WAS are completely self-absorbed and have little regard for others.

As I did also post later about my "venting my sadness" comment, it was more me trying to say "sorry if I'm depressing people". This has been said to me before.

To clarify: we're all full of empathy and if we feel sad, it can be because of a turn of events but never because you're sharing your sadness. Will all do, in large quantities. In fact, it's recommended to do it here rather than elsewhere.

I just found that the sarcasm in the above post almost nullified the sound advice given if I'm being honest. If I wanted to sift through sarcasm to get to the real message, I'd talk with my W!!

I'm sorry Barry, I didn't mean to aggravate you. I've had a bad week apparently because I've offended another poster and had to apologize over there. I need to keep my own attitude in check.

I think I had the reaction because it pushes some of my buttons about communication. It left me with the impression that you were making a "covert contract" with the board: "if I tell you all is lost because of a text, you'll tell me I'm exaggerating". It was my reading of it, but not necessarily your intention. But again, I really think reading "Nor More Mr. Nice Guy" will give you some good insights. I hope you can get to it real soon.

As for Mozza in particular, I bear no grudges or ill will to him and I really do hope he continues to follow my sitch and post his helpful feedback. I've actually read all of his threads in the last couple of days.

I'm honored that you read all of my sitch and seem to know the details of some parts. I'll agree that it's a rich thread, with the advice of many vets and newcomers of quality. I've benefited tremendously from it and would be in a very different place today without it.

I did note that in Mozza 4, he also had some feedback regarding one of his posts that got what I felt was an unnecessary amount of negative comments back. By the end of the string, Mozza too had said he didn't want to talk about it any more. It seemed that people had picked up on a negative part of his post and wanted to keep bashing him about it no matter what reasoning he then tried to give for it.

Yes, this is something I've learnt about myself since BD and that I've taken out of this particular exchange: I don't need to convince everyone, to beat every detail to death. I need to let go. I wish I had done this more often in my M.

I have read many other peoples threads here in an attempt to understand my own. Some of them help, some don't. I take the good stuff and leave the rest.

It's a healthy attitude. We're all ultimately responsible for our sitches. We don't owe each other to obey the advice or agree with the analysis. I don't take any offense when people reject my advice. In fact, I'd be more worried by someone who does everything that I suggest because I don't want this level of responsibility.

[Barry]

Hi Mozza, Thanks for your response.

There's something missing in your story, something big. It's everything that happens before what you describe. You describe when the curve goes back up, but you're missing the "it gets worse before it gets better" part.

Agreed. I did miss this out but I am aware from reading many people's sitch's here that I'm in for a very rough ride before this gets any better (if it ever does) in terms of R. As an example, most people's signatures have some mention of an OP, be it either before BD or after. I'll be honest that right now, my W is not showing signs of wanting to R so chances are that an OM may appear at some point. This will still crush me at the moment as I'm not doing so good at detaching. I do know that from some of the success stories that it can be a necessary path for the WAS to tread. It may or may not last, and it's at worst, the end of our M with no hope, or at best a chance for her to see that the grass isn't greener, and realise what she's lost. I'm still unsure if this is a deal breaker for me, as I don't know how long I could see her with an OM and still want to R, that's a bridge i'll have to cross I suppose.
I am aware of it but do try not to dwell on it too much, it doesn't help my mental state.

She didnt ask about what I'd been up to.

From my observations around here and in my sitch, it's mostly because WAS are completely self-absorbed and have little regard for others.

Absolutly. This is the biggest change I've seen in my W. She has always been a kind and considerate wife/mother/person but she is currently only thinking of herself with no regard to the long term affects of all this on me, our children, and her too. After reading some other threads on here (as well as some research last year), I do think she is in a MLC but me pointing that out to her won't help the sitch at all. I was hoping that her friends and family may suggest it to her (maybe they have?). She's either unaware, or choosing to ignore the repurcussions of a short term problem or the long term future. Obviously a MLC is not the only reason for this happening, my own actions and attitude have also played a major part in things. I'm sure I read it on one of your early threads that "She is delivering a death sentance, when some community service would do". That's how this feels to me right now though.

I'm sorry Barry, I didn't mean to aggravate you.

I think I had the reaction because it pushes some of my buttons about communication. It left me with the impression that you were making a "covert contract" with the board: "if I tell you all is lost because of a text, you'll tell me I'm exaggerating". It was my reading of it, but not necessarily your intention.

Please don't apologise Mozza, no harm done.

As I read how you took my post, I suppose there may have been an element of the "covert contract" underlying my post. It wasn't a concious thing and I didn't see it at the time of writing but I think I probably DID want someone to tell me it was an exaggeration on her part to give me some feeling of hope where there appeared to be none.
I haven't got NMMNG yet but I will do as I do need to try and communicate in a more effective manner, both on this forum and certainly with my W. As I say, I don't conciously communicate badly, but more thought is needed I can see.

I don't need to convince everyone, to beat every detail to death. I need to let go. I wish I had done this more often in my M.

Can I get an Amen brother!! I need to do this NOW, and I also wish I would have done this more in my M.

I have read many other peoples threads here in an attempt to understand my own. Some of them help, some don't. I take the good stuff and leave the rest.

It's a healthy attitude. We're all ultimately responsible for our sitches.

I will continue with this attitude. No two sitch's are exactly the same (although there are some common similarities for sure). I do try to read as many as I can, and read them well to see if there are things in other people's that ARE relevant to my sitch, but which I have been blind to before. I try to make notes as I go of things to think about in more detail later...it's a long list!
Regarding any advice offered, I have to remember that people are seeing only my side of the story (I'm sure I play down my faults at times) and ultimatly, the advice is offered freely by people who have been through (in cases) far worse than I and lived to tell the tale. I need to listen more and not get defensive about things which touch a nerve. Most of the advice is key to my survival as a person and a good deal of it is at the very least making me think about how to deal with my W in the future, whether or not we R.

GAL activities this weekend..

Meet D15 and her new boyfriend for coffee.
Shop for some new clothes.
Meet up with a friend for a meal.
Spin Cycling class.
Finish reading DB!

Barry.

[Sotto]

Hi Barry - sounds like you're doing pretty well in the circumstances. You seem more aware of the DB principles now, and to be evaluating things in a more measured way.....good for you. These things are important skills for getting through - surviving - and thriving beyond our sitches. And of course, our sitches don't determine our lives going forwards, we do that for ourselves.

As you say, it's still very early days, and you can expect some twists and turns in your sitch. But having a good attitude in place to weather these, grow and learn is a great starting point.

Best of luck to you matey! :-)

[rd500]

Hi Barry. So sorry you here. Just a quick post to let you know that many of us feel exactly as you do re the sadness. My W left 4 months ago and I still ache with the loss. I have DBed as per the books but also using the advice of my life coach I have been the best me I can be. My W left myself and four kids, put herself on the poverty line and is talking suicide at the moment She has an OM who has plenty of problems of his own and she tells me almost daily how crap her life is This woman was my best friend for /25 years and I trusted her with my life
I long for her to come home and join the family but that's not on the cards at the moment

Sorry got off the point. You pain and sadness are very real and you have your beliefs re your W and the chances for your R. What the vets and others are trying to do is give you the tools to help you deal and take the shovel off you so you don't dig the hole any deeper.

I love it when one of my DB friends gives me some hope but there is a reality to all our sitchs In your case your W is not who she was and doesn't want an R with you. None of us have any idea what's going on in their minds , maybe your W is gone forever maybe not but are you not better dealing with the sitch day by day.

I feel your pain , I really do , I was so sad last night it was painful but today is a bit better I will be happy again one day and so will you.

Post often and the vets will offer some really helpful advice ( like toots I don't get their attention but I presume they have nothing to offer) and people like me can offer support

Stay strong and look at the positives in your life. Take care Rd

[LisaB]

Hey Barry, thanks for replying to my post!

What I meant about the sadness angle is not that you shouldn't be sad or that you shouldn't vent about sadness but that it seemed you were not hearing the advice you were given and were instead hiding behind "I'm sorry I'm so sad" kind of like an excuse. Of course we are all here for similar reasons so we get it! I'm sad too sometimes and it blows. I get it.

In a way I think the feedback is not really so much about what you are saying on here but more about how what you say on here reflects on difficulties you might have with your marriage or with DBing. In other words, think about how you react and interact on these boards and how that might also apply to your situation.

We are here for you to vent and we empathize! I've read many many posts of people saying they have been crying and depressed and they get propped up and supported. So I do not agree that angry posts are favored over sad ones. But maybe I am wrong or maybe you need to read more of the ladies' posts haha.

I think what Mozza said was very funny, it sounded a little harsh but it made a good point that actually rang true with me! You will read on these boards a lot not to believe everything the WAS says and in fact not to put too much stock in any ultimatums or pronouncements they make. Just a small example in my own situation, my H told me at BD that we had to part ways because we have nothing in common and want different things. Two months later he told me we should be friends because we have so much in common and think the same way about everything. Ummmm...ok. At BD he told me he didn't respect me. Three months later he was going on about how much he respects me and how he tells everyone how amazing I am. And when asked about many of the things he said around BD he denies having said or even thought them. So .... don't listen to everything she says. Let it wash over you like water on a duck's back.

That being said, if she says something specific about the relationship that she didn't like, take it and put it in your pocket to work on. That's a 180 for you.

Good luck Barry! Keep your chin up!

[Mozza]

Hi Barry,

Because we spoke of sadness, I decided to come on your thread to share that I'm crying a lot this afternoon, that I miss my W a lot today. I work from home so I can cry all I want in a way, but it's impeding my ability to deliver to my clients. And that's five months after the S. I've seen her on Tuesday for lunch and it brought me a few months back emotionally. Ironically, even if she was clear again that we're done for good, her difficulties have given me the impression that we will R and that is not helping me. She's back on the top of my mind, while I should be focusing on myself. Also, I'm picking up the kids this afternoon and it often makes me a little more fragile, nervous, because of the work and responsibilities it involves as a single parent.

I've cried every day for five months so far. I'm at a point where I avoid sharing as much as before about the sadness I feel. It's not because I censor myself, but because I don't want to focus on it, as everything is just fleeting moments anyway. But we're all different and at different stages.

So yes, many of us are sad. Share away.

[Karma12]

It is human to feel emotion and sadness is part of being human. As long as we don't qllow the despair to drag us down and remove all joy from our lives.

No contact or less contact is easier. It does help if the cause of your pain is not standing right in front of you! Time heals....there will be less bad days as time moves on.

[Sotto]

"Just a small example in my own situation, my H told me at BD that we had to part ways because we have nothing in common and want different things. Two months later he told me we should be friends because we have so much in common and think the same way about everything. Ummmm...ok. At BD he told me he didn't respect me. Three months later he was going on about how much he respects me and how he tells everyone how amazing I am."

Lisa, isn't that interesting what your H said. I know we all know - don't believe anything they say - but to see such a direct example of it. It does really highlight - best to take everything with a huge pinch of salt!

[Barry]

Hello Toots, RD, Lisa, and Mozza.

Thank you all for your continued kind words of support and encouragement.

Toots.
Today has been a slightly more "up" day for me. I've decided to try to post only on those days as the down days for me are awful (as I'm sure they are for everyone), but looking back through my threads, I communicate less effectively when I'm upset. I'm also using this knowledge to pick the times when I have contact with my W as best I can. As we all know, the ups and downs come frequently, I'm sure particularly during the first few months.

Our sitches don't determine our lives going forwards, we do that for ourselves.

I try to remind myself of this every morning when I'm at my lowest.

RD
As I've said to you before, I find certain similarities in our sitches. The main one being the length of time we have been M and T with our W's. I also feel your pain. It's a very long time to have invested in something for it to be thrown on the fire by your partner.

This woman was my best friend for /25 years and I trusted her with my life. I long for her to come home and join the family but that's not on the cards at the moment

Although that it's me that moved out for financial and logistical reasons mainly, and it's my W that is in the marital home with my children, I too wish she would emotionally rejoin our family, but like your sitch, that doesn't look likely right now. As I say, I don't have an OM in the picture (yet) so I do feel for you that there is one in yours. I really do hope things improve for you at some point.
I do try to look at the positives in my life, but aside from my 4 lovely children (which is positive enough I must say), who love me very much, the rest are limited as they tie in some way to my M. I'm working on creating new positives that aren't though!

Lisa
I do understand your (and everyone's) feedback and comments regarding the sadness bit. In regard to not taking stock in WAS's absolutes etc, it was good of you to give examples in your sitch (which I'm not up to date with yet) where this is the case. My W's current outlook does seem fairly bleak, but I do appreciate that she, like everyone, does not know the future.

That being said, If she says something specific about the relationship that she didn't like, take it and put it in your pocket to work on. That's a 180 for you

Regarding this, I tried to ask her (at BD) where it is in our relationship that she feels that I/we have failed. All she has and will say is that we are "not good for each other any more" I understand what she is saying there as we certainly had a rough 2014, but I personally don't feel it's anything insurmountable.

I do have a question relating to this: Should I ask her to make a list (however brutal) of these things? I was thinking of asking her to, and saying that it was not something that I could agree to change everything on (to win her back), more from a viewpoint that I need to know for any future relationship I have, be that with her (hopefully) or another. Thoughts on this anyone?

Mozza
I'm sorry to hear that you've had a tough day today. I know you are much better placed to heed your own advice rather than me give you any, but as you rightly say, the next up day is just around the corner so hang in there.
I, like you, can see me being upset every say for many months to come, even if no physical tears are shed. I'm glad that you continue to follow and post on my sitch.

On a lighter note, my very kind boss gave me half a day off for free today. He knows my sitch and it was his way of telling me "well done" for getting through the days without letting all this interfere with my work. I work in a fairly stressful role so he did give me a figurative pat on the back today. He's a good guy.
Anyway, I got home and as it was a nice sunny afternoon, went on a 10 mile run in the local countryside. It did me good to be out in the fresh air (I usually train in the gym) and I felt much better on getting home.
I'm looking forward to tomorrow's meet with my D15 and boyfriend, and my clothes shopping. The shopping is (as silly as it sounds) a bit of a 180 for me as I could never tolerate browsing many shops for anything. My usual opinion would be "get in, buy, get out" as is the case for many men I presume. I intend to take a bit more time and get some well fitting items to help my PMA.

Sorry for the long post, and take care everyone.

Barry.

[Mozza]

Sorry for the long post

Do you know why you say that? Do you think we will be offended or bothered?

I suspect that your reaction will be "Oh, I shouldn't say that anymore", but the goal of my intervention is not to "teach" you how to write on these boards, which seems to be how you've taken some of the advice you've received (it does not surprise me). It's about making you think about your personality traits and ultimately how it got you where you are today. Most likely, it feels so natural to you that you're not aware of it. It has worked with you so far and it has become your nature.

Here's a little joke that I heard from David Foster Wallace:

"There are these two young fish swimming along, and they happen to meet an older fish swimming the other way, who nods at them and says, "Morning, boys, how's the water?" And the two young fish swim on for a bit, and then eventually one of them looks over at the other and goes, "What the hell is water?""

See what I mean about your communication? They are a reflection of how you think, of how you wish to interact with others, how you want others to react to you. It tells me that you try to appear as a very nice guy, one who doesn't want to be a bother, who's polite and a quick study. You probably read this sentence and think: "Yeah, what's wrong with that?" I wish you'd get started on NMMNG right away.

Sorry, I forgot (following too many people): are you seeing a therapist?

[LisaB]

Hey Barry,

In my opinion NO do not ask her for a list. In my opinion at this time you need to back off, don't ask her anything, don't talk about the relationship or anything like that. That is a big huge DB no-no.

Eventually you may be able to have that talk and figure out how things went wrong but at this point you need to look inside yourself and figure out how Barry wants to improve Barry. What are some things you would like to change about yourself to make yourself smarter, stronger, better, funner?
(nice english huh?)

Hope your day is going well!

[Barry]

Hi Mozza, there's quite a lot in your post to respond to..

Sorry for the long post

Do you know why you say that? Do you think we will be offended or bothered?

No - I'm just appreciative of people's time taken to read and keep up with my posts, particularly when I think they're long.

I suspect that your reaction will be "Oh, I shouldn't say that anymore"

No, I will continue to put that if I feel it appropriate.

The goal of my intervention is not to "teach" you how to write on these boards, which seems to be how you've taken some of the advice you've received (it does not surprise me)

I know it's not. I'm just trying to get my point across better in my posts.

It's about making you think about your personality traits and ultimately how it got you where you are today.

I know, and I am thinking about that...a lot.

Most likely, it feels so natural to you that you're not aware of it. It has worked with you so far and it has become your nature.

By definition, doesn't one's nature feel natural?

Here's a little joke that I heard from David Foster Wallace:
"There are these two young fish swimming along, and they happen to meet an older fish swimming the other way, who nods at them and says, "Morning, boys, how's the water?" And the two young fish swim on for a bit, and then eventually one of them looks over at the other and goes, "What the hell is water?""

That's a very thought provoking story Mozza, one which I need to think more about before I give my reaction on it. What I can say right now is that I'm not in a good enough place to reflect on if the reality I see is actually the true reality. This is not The Matrix.
I, like most people see the world through the lens of self in general terms but I am also very concious of the world at large and the people in it. I do think of other people's reactions to my interactions, and of course I want people to see me in a good light, why would I not??

See what I mean about your communication? They are a reflection of how you think, of how you wish to interact with others, how you want others to react to you. It tells me that you try to appear as a very nice guy, one who doesn't want to be a bother, who's polite and a quick study. You probably read this sentence and think: "Yeah, what's wrong with that?" I wish you'd get started on NMMNG right away.

You're 100% correct, I DON'T see what's wrong with that. I AM a nice guy, I AM polite, I AM thoughtful of others feelings etc. I can't really comment at this stage (without reading NMMNG) as to how or why I would want to change that in any way. My W doesn't want to end our M because I'm a nice guy?

Sorry, I forgot (following too many people): are you seeing a therapist?

Not yet, I start seeing an IC very soon. I'm just waiting for confirmation of the first appointment.

Barry.

[Barry]

Thanks for responding Lisa,

In my opinion NO do not ask her for a list. In my opinion at this time you need to back off, don't ask her anything, don't talk about the relationship or anything like that. That is a big huge DB no-no.

I kind of knew that was the case as it means focusing on the past rather than the present or future to try and solve my/our problems in the M. I've obviously thought about this A LOT myself, and I've actually filled an A4 notebook with thoughts. These include my perception on my part in the M breakdown, and I have included my thoughts on what I thought my W's part in my feeling that way was too. It's interesting reading and I'm sure a therapist would have a field day with it.
There are lots of areas where there is scope for 180's for sure.

Eventually you may be able to have that talk and figure out how things went wrong but at this point you need to look inside yourself and figure out how Barry wants to improve Barry. What are some things you would like to change about yourself to make yourself smarter, stronger, better, funner?
(nice english huh?)

More fun lol! I know I need to work on myself, and yes, I know...for me. Because I'm in such emotional turmoil at the moment, some of the things I plan to do need to put on hold a little, I'm just not in the right place to be able to concentrate on some of it. I'm really trying to focus on my mental state right now as that's my biggest issue. I am on anti-depressants, I'm arranging to see an IC, and am attending an Emotional Wellbeing course at a local college which starts in a couple of weeks. I'm also working on my physical appearance. I'm not hugely overweight but I do need to lose a bit of weight and gain some muscle to get back to where I was when I felt good about myself. It helps with a PMA, and it's also helping me sleep. A longer term goal as part of this is to cycle the length of Britain (1000 miles) either later this year or more likely early 2016. I have been increasing my social circle and GALing as much as I can too.

Hope your day is going well!

I did buy a couple of items of clothing, but it was more to look at styles today as I don't want to spend too much on new clothes when I'm losing weight. My D15 and boyfriend coffee meet didn't happen, she asked me if we could do it another day, which is fine although I was looking forward to it. I'm about to have a fine steak dinner with my parents, and then I'm out to visit my sister and her family this evening. My W is out on the town tonight which although shouldn't be a concern to me, does prey on my mind so I'm off out to take my mind off it.

Spin cycling class at 9am tomorrow morning so won't be a late night for me. Still hoping to meet a friend for dinner tomorrow, and may well finish DB by Monday so most of my GAL activities should be able to be ticked off.
I am missing my two niece's joint birthday party tomorrow (my W's sister's children, who I haven't seen since around October) although I have sent cards and some money for each of them. It's those things that I miss, as well as my own family, wife, and home.

Barry.

[Mozza]

Hello Barry,

Thanks for the detailed response.

The fish story was not about questioning whether you're seeing the true reality, it's not a Matrix kind of question. It's about seeing for the first time what is so familiar to you that it becomes invisible. Another quote, from George Orwell, is: "To see what is in front of one's nose needs a constant struggle."

In passing I note in your answers that when you're appreciative, you say "sorry" and that you think being a "nice guy" is not a reason to be dumped. Let's just table that for now. I don't mean to argue about it and at this point I think it's best that you take some time to finish DR, then go on to No More Mr. Nice Guy and see your new therapist. These are all tools that will help you see better what is water. My IC especially has turned around a lot of things I thought I knew about my M and myself.

PS: Rzrback just reflected on his past life as a nice guy and what that brought him. It could be good food for thought.

[Barry]

I've had such a bad weekend guys. I need to tell you about it, but so much of it goes against every DB rule though.
I'm so disappointed with myself and am in such a bad place right now.

I had some text exchange with W on Saturday morning. We said hi, both asked how the other was (that's a first since BD for her), I said have a good night out with her workmates, and enjoy niece's birthday party on Sunday, she said thanks, and told me to have a good w/e too. All very friendly so I left it there.

I know the workmates, in fact ive known them since they were kids, they're all at least 10 years younger than her. One of them, I had a feeling would post pics on FB and stupidly I looked around 10:30pm. There were some from the friends house and some when out. One of the ones in the house got to me a bit. It was with her friend and it was the way her make-up was done (sparkly eye liner, smoky eyes, all very sexy), she looked amazing. She had a small vest top on (bearing in mind it's about -3 outside at the moment), which shows off her recent tattoos. New jewellery (no w ring), hair dyed and preened. She looked transformed. She also had her tounge seductivly poking out of the side of her mouth, but it was the look in her eyes that worries me the most, a real "come and get me" look. My description doesn't do the photo justice in how different & vibrant W looked.

I was at my sisters at the time, and she saw me looking at that pic, and asked to see it. She could guess what I was thinking about it too. I said to Sis that I was worried about it, as she was going to be out on the town, 3 o clock in the morning, at a club, looking like that, drunk, with people 10 years younger than her, separated, no wedding ring on, not in love with her husband, feeling free and liberated, no sex in 10 weeks, and with that "come get me" look on her face. Yes, I was worried.

I'm not saying for one moment that my W has turned into someone who would sleep with someone on a first date, or that she would do anything other than have a night out, and of course she's going to dress nice, we all do, and her friends were too. She may not even kiss anyone, it's more that with the male attention she will get (trust me, she's a really attractive woman), it opens the door to her meeting an OM, who is NOT her (route of all her problems) husband, feeling flattered of the attention, even if it's an exchange of number, it's a slippery slope.

I know what I should have done is tried not to think about it, but I find that difficult to do, as I said recently, I'm really having a problem in detaching.

I sent W a message saying that I knew was only out with her friends but to be careful, because she looked amazing tonight and would obviously be getting attention. I said to remember that we're married, sent her the photo, and even said that she did have a real "come get me look" on her face, and that I was worried about us. I sent this on something where you can see when the messages are delivered and read. It was all delivered.

I called my S20 to see if he was staying at out house (he sometimes does on a Saturday) and no he wasn't. He asked why and I basically told him all of the above. He said not to worry etc, but I told him I couldn't help it. He said to text my S18 (who lives at home but often stays with friends on a Saturday) to see if he was home. I did, and he was staying out too, he also said that my S13 was staying at a friends too. That just leaves my D15.

Anyway, I was in such a mess with all these thoughts of her doing something stupid, or potentially taking an OM home that I walked round and hid where I would be able to see and hear when she came home. This was at 1am. I know, this makes me sound crazy, and I think I might be, or having a breakdown or something.

As it turned out, my S18 did come home in the end. He text'd me to say he was back (I had my phone on silent as where I was, he would have heard it go off inside the house), and I asked him to let me know if he heard from his Mum. He said he would but why was I asking, so I told him too. I know I shouldn't have said this to either of my sons, but I was in such a state.

Anyway, I stood there for the next 2 hours until she came home, by taxi with the girls. She still hadn't seen my messages, but looked at them as she was staggering up to the front door, really drunk. She didn't reply. She went in and was talking to my S18, and which I could hear every single word of from outside the window.

She asked him if I had been texting him, and that she's had messages off me saying that she was basically "out on the pull" for an OM, and she said that she wasn't or hadn't done anything at all. She started to tell my S that she was so sorry that she was doing this to our family, but my S doesn't want to talk about it with her as it upsets him. He feels like she's always just trying to justify it to him and convince him it's all for the best. None of us think that though.

He text'd me to say she was home, and that she hadn't done anything and to go to sleep and not worry. I said thanks and then text'd my W to tell her I didn't mean that she would have done anything, it was just that I was worried about her meeting someone. I could hear her reading my messages aloud as I'm stood not 3 feet away on the other side of the window!! She said she was home fine and that she wasn't trying to be horrible to me. I said I knew that, and that I didn't think she was horrible and that I love and miss her.

She was talking to my S18 for a while, very very drunk, and saying how horrible she was to be doing all this etc. She had planned on net getting too drunk as she had to drive some distance on Sunday to niece's birthday party. She was running through all the drinks that she'd had to my S18, it was a lot, and she was saying that her "friends" had been encouraging her.

She was asking my S18 to try to help her sober up, so he was making her drink lots of water, then at 03.45am, she asked him to go and get her a burger and chips. Being a doting son, he agreed to go for her bless him. As soon as he went out the door, she was on the phone to the friends she's been out with, running me down into the ground about the messages I'd sent her (there was no sound of the person she'd just been when talking to my S18). I could hear part of the other persons half of the call too as she had them on speakerphone but the tv was quite loud so I couldn't catch it all. The tone of voice said enough for me though, they were all running me down about these messages.

Anyway, my S18 gets home with the food, and I wait to listen if anything else is said. It wasn't and she soon after went to bed. I waited until she was in bed before going home at 05.00am. I was distraught that I'd allowed myself to work myself into such a state that I was standing around in sub-zero temperatures, stalking my W, and messaging her in the middle of the night with things like I miss you, I love you, everything I shouldn't be doing....all based on one picture of her on FB. What a mess.

So anyway, Sunday morning, I didn't really know what to do as I knew that she was going to be hung-over, and had to drive a long way on the motorway. I messaged her again, saying sorry about the texts last night, I shouldn't have done that and that I was just so worried about the whole situation. I said to make sure that she was safe to drive, even if that meant leaving a lot later.

My Mum came into my room with a drink for me, and I totally broke down to her, and told her all of the above. She's so worried about me, because she can see the torment and anguish that I'm going through. She asked me if I wanted her to try and speak with my W (without saying that I knew she was), but I said not to. I tried to sleep again as I hadn't had much.

Regarding the sleeping, I've really had problems with it lately, and even when I do manage to sleep, in my dreams we're still together and then I wake up in my tiny room, in a single bed, and it all comes crashing down on me again and again that my life is in tatters. Mornings are a bad time for me.

After a while, I decided to go out on a run. I started out on my usual route which takes me out into the countryside, but which also goes past the bottom of our street (not past my house). I could see that W's car was gone but my S18's was there. I text'd him and he was on his own so I went round to see him. I apologised for texting him so much the night before (obviously didn't mention that I'd been 3 feet away at the time), and said that it was out of worry for the situation. He said it was fine. Even though I know I'm putting him in a position by the asking the next things, I couldn't help myself.
I asked him not to say that I'd been round to my W, which he said he wouldn't (and I do trust him not to), and I said that if I went to look in the bedroom, would he not think ill of me. He said he wouldn't and that he understood why I was being like this, he could see the worry in my eyes. I looked around and there was nothing out of the "ordinary". Whe I went downstairs, my S18 asked me if I wanted to check the Internet history etc on our home PC to see what she'd been looking at. He's worried about it all too. Anyway, I checked it right back to the day I left, and there was no dating sites, lawyers, nothing to say that she was looking to sell the house etc. There were a few things which she'd been looking at to do with marital problems, but all were geared towards the husband treating the wife badly. I read the sites, and I can honestly say that I didn't do most of the things that were on them - hopefully she realised this when she read it too!

The only thing that really concerned me was visits to websites regarding cosmetic surgery.
I have to say right from the outset that my W is extremly beautiful and I wouldn't change anything about here. Having had 4 children though, my W has quite a lot of stretch marks on her stomach, and a "pouch". It's never bothered me in the slightest but it has her (I can understand this to be fair). We used to play the lottery, and that was one of the things that she always said she would do first should we come into big money. She also has very nice breasts but again she has never been happy with the shape so has said about a "boob job". The talk of that increased when her best friend had one done and (hers were very small before) and it really boosted her friends confidence. They do look good too I have to say, but I much prefer natural to fake. She's recently being going on about having Botox injections too, which she doesn't need at all. She's obviously feeling her age (which at almnost 38, is not old at all!!), and she was very concerned about her hair being dyed every other week, and losing weight etc. You get the picture.
Please tell me it's not just me thinking that all of this, coupled with the new car and recent multiple tattoos, smacks of a MLC??? The problem is, she's feeling great about herself and this new life she's wanting to start...it's not a "crisis" to her.

Anyway, there was a few visits to the websites regarding surgery over the past few weeks, so I started to think then that maybe this is what she's thinking now. Get rid of me, sell our home and she'll have a tidy sum of money to be able to do all of it, with enough left over to start a nice little life off for herself. I'm sure that the lure of that in her current thinking is almost irresistable and it far outweighs any kind of reconciliation with me. Maybe she was just curious about it, but it all seems a bit too coincidental to me.

I thanked my S18 for his understanding and said I would see him today (we are meeting up for dinner this evening). I went "home".
I noticed that my W hadn't read my messages from that morning, so I text'd her asking her to please look at my other messages. She just said "what about them, i've read them". I asked her to call me later (yesterday evening), and she just replied "no".

It got to around 7.30pm, and I was in such a state that I went round to see her and broke down in front of her (again). She did hug me just to console me, I was really in a bad way. I asked her to talk to me about how she is feeling and if anything has changed in regards to R. I explained my worries over the photo and the circumstances she was going to be in whilst out and she understood what I was saying, although she wasn't going to explain herself to me or anyone.

I did manage to calm down a little and tried to tell her that I understand how we got here, I really do. As I was reading DB, one of the biggest things that struck me was the part about the "usual" issue in a breakdown of a M was the man feeling that he wanted more independance, and the woman wanting more intimacy. In our marriage, these roles have been reversed for some time. I read back the section in DB about it and swapped the "He's and She's" around and that passage was about us. It's not that I'm feminine by nature but I do wear my heart on my sleeve, I always have, and I don't mind talking about my emotions especially with my W. What had happened over a long period is that I'd turned into the nagging wife!!

Although we both work hard, I was coming home and not seeing her much, doing the cooking, cleaning etc. When she would get home, I would complain that "we never do anything or spend enough time together"...nagging wife if ever I've heard one! The thing is all of this, and me resenting her friendship with her best friend (the third wheel in our M), made me miserable. Once she started getting all these feelings of independance and confidence from working, coupled with the onset of a MLC (which I'm sure she is having), it made it worse and worse.

I told her that I am trying to get help with my mental health (she knows already) and I'm trying to be more sociable with friends etc, and it is for my own benefit but I can't cope with the thoughts that me and her aren't going to make it. I actually said a few things like that, I can't cope, I can't take it etc. She said to me that I had to stop talking this way (suicidal). I told her that I wasn't at "home" knotting a noose but that I was at complete rock bottom and I had had those thoughts many times recently. This is completly true, I have. It's not that I'm going to (I couldn't do that to my kids or family anyway), but to know that you're even thinking about that sort of thing is very very upsetting.

I told her that I wish I could hate her, and just say f*** you to the whole situation, but that I can't. I don't want to see my life, our childrens lives, her life even, torn to pieces and thrown on the fire. I don't deserve it and neither do our kids.
I just asked her to please try and think about the things that I've said in our last couple of meet-ups and everything I'd said yesterday evening, and to let us try one more time. I told her that if it didn't work, I would let her go, and I meant it.

She said she would think about what I'd said, we talked about some other small matters and that was that. She hugged me when I left and said that she does care for me and cares what happens to me (I should hope so after 22 years together). I can see that she's worried about me, in fact, I can see that everyone around me is. I look terrible, and I feel worse.

I just wanted you all to know that I've probably blown everything now, all because I looked at a photo and went batsh*t crazy.
I've broken pretty much every rule in DB'ing. I'm not sure if the meds I have are either not working or if all this is just too big for them to fix. I'm at the doctors on Friday and I tried unsuccesfully to get a sooner appointment today.

I feel so broken guys.

Barry.

[Tarheel]

Barry, the lesson you need to learn from all of that is to stay in your own sandbox. You can only control you. Trust me- I've been in your shoes. Early on, I recall sitting in my car in a parking lot outside of OM's neighborhood to see if W would go there. I even cruised by his house several times to see if W's car was there. It's only lately that I really started to realize (and accept) that we only control ourselves. You have to leave W to make her own decisions (good and bad).

[Mozza]

Oh Barry... A lot of us men on these boards can relate to you. I cringed as I read your entire story because I've been there too. Since you've read my sitch, you probably know about the Halloween episode where my WAW was out on the town dressed in some S&M cop costume getting drunk on jello shots surrounded by men in their 20s. The difference is that the craziest thing I've ever done was to try in vain a few passwords to get into her iPad...

You're so early in your stich. It won't be this painful all the time. It will remain painful, but it will not be that bad. I'm concerned however that you will become one of these LBS that mess up in real life and then come here to confess, as if it cancelled anything.

Yes, you've done a lot of awful things this week-end and you really need to get a hold of yourself, for your own good. You're not saving your M, you're not heading towards R this way. If I told you: your M will be saved if you stand on your head for 5 hours while holding a snake in your mouth -- would you do it? I bet you would. So now, I'm telling you: if you want a shot at your M, you need to follow the DB principles.

What are the lessons of the weekend for you? What will you do differently now?

We're there with you.

[Georgiabelle]

Barry,

Your post was literally heart breaking. I am so very sorry you find yourself here. You have received some very wise advice and I will be brief.

Please, for your own sanity, stop. You cannot stop W from doing anything. Let her make her own decisions-good and bad. Focus on yourself as the only thing you control is you. Please don't allow yourself to obsess over what she is doing. Why? Because you cannot control it.

Hang in there. It does get better:) Be kind to yourself.

[Vapo]

Dude, we hear you, we all do, and all of us know exactly how you are feeling. I know that sounds impossible to you, but we really do. We have all been there.

You must trust me, when I say it will get better, but snooping will tear you apart. So stop it.

Your wife might say she will think about it, she won't. Don't try to make sense of it, you can't. You cannot reason with her, you cannot make see your side of story, so stop. You cannot nice her back, there is nothing you can say or do that will drive her back to you. Not one damned thing. So STOP!!!

You matter, focus on yourself, grow, find the Barry that Barry always wanted to be. Go out, get busy, go meet people, take some classes.

Dude, I am sorry to say, but in 95% of the cases there is another person somewhere. Just be prepared for it, so it does not bomb you again.

And no, you cannot do a damned thing about it! Even if you beat up the other guy, what would it help, you'd get arrested and the other guy would still be in the picture.

[rd500]

Hi Barry. You have to take this for what it is. Your are all over the place emotionally. Your best friend and partner has told you she no longer wants to be with you. Your whole foundation has been rocked to the core. You realise that your actions were not the norm to say the least ! Please don't beat yourself up , we have all done stuff like this but it's done now so just move on. This episode is in the past. As others have said you have no control over your W. You are the last person she will seek advice from and the last person she needs to hear from now.

Please try to keep your kids out of any snooping or trying to get them to influence W. My W adores her kids yet she left and lives elsewhere now. I can promise you that I would have bet my life on that never happening All my kids have lost a lot of respect for W and she cries daily abiout them. She still went

If you follow the vets advice , you will start to heal and move on with your life It will take time but it will happen My non vet advice is to accept that W is gone for now she may come back , she may not , either way you need to heal. There is no quick fix , I wish there was.

Stay strong and learn from this Take care. Rd

[Barry]

Hi.
I know I can't control what she's doing. I'm just so drained by it all.
There's 6 people in our family, and the person who's been the glue in all our lives is wrecking everything.

Does anyone else see this as classic MLC behavior or is it just me??

None of her family, her friends (even her best friend, who as I say, is more like a sister to her) saw this coming. All I know is she went out one night, got drunk, and came home and ruined my hopes for the future, my dreams of spending my life with her, having fun, laughing, and growing old with her. She broke my heart...again. She didn't have to do this, she could have woke up the next morning and laughed it off on being drunk and emotional. If she really wanted things to be good again between us, she could have put some work into saving it. She could have spoken to me at any point leading up to this and said how she was feeling. I can't believe all this "I didn't know it was coming either" rubbish that she told me either. You don't decide to end a 22 year relationship overnight. I know there's a lot of "could've's" in all that and the fact is, she didn't so that kind of says it all.

I know that the woman I knew is gone. I think she could be gone forever.

I'm glad that other people said they'd done similar things (not glad you felt the need to of course) even if they weren't to crazy level. I just can't bear the thought of her being intimate with an OM. I'm sure we've all had it, with images of our loved ones doing things running inside our minds. How am I supposed to not think about that?? I'm trying to keep as positive and busy as I can but the thoughts persist. I can't stop obsessing over everything.

When I look at this all started, we'd seen each other on Thursday and talked a little, and we'd text'd each other on the Saturday morning which was all fine.

If I wouldn't have felt the need to go onto someone's FB page (who I'm not even friends with) looking for photos of my W, all of this could've been avoided THIS TIME. The problem isn't the photo though, not really. It's that I know she's going out looking super sexy, with all of this going on. I don't need the photo, I've enough images on my head already.

I'm my own worst enemy.

Don't get me wrong, doing all that stuff wrong in a 24 hour period is impressively bad I know, and I admit to losing the plot there. But the trouble with not checking up on her is, I DO want to know if an OM appears and she's not exactly going to tell me freely. Yes, I made my choice in moving out so she could live in our home, and I stand by it, but as I've said before, there's no way I'm paying the mortgage on her love-nest...no f****g way on earth.

I realise that this is still early days and it IS going to get worse as time goes on. I'm just going to have to try and get by day to day and not think about it.

It's killing my soul though.

[Vapo]

Barry, you are among friends here. You can come here to rant, vent or just to find comfort. I know it is hard for you to understand it, but we have all been where you are at.

This being said, we will not bull$hit you and you can expect friendly 2x4s from us.

The sad truth is at this time it really does not matter if it is MLC or not that your W is battling with. Your path should be the same.

You need to detach (easier said than done, I know...), as soon as you let go of your need to know, a HUGE weight will be lifted from your shoulders. The sooner you realize this, the easier it will be for you. I hope you come to the place of detachment soon, because it will do wonders for your sanity.

Why have you moved out? That is a big nono. NEVER move out. If she has a problem, let her move out. So my suggestion is, move back in ASAP.

By now you have surey figured out, that the person you knew as your wife is gone and for all intents and purposes could as well have been kidnapped by aliens. You have to remember that that somewhere deep there is still the core of your wife...

[Ontheup]

Hey Barry

You have to stop looking at stuff. Easier said than done but you are just causing yourself more pain by doing so. I found something last week when I wasn't even snooping that kicked me in the stomach and it wasn't even that bad. I know some people on here have found sexual imagery, texts even audio. Im not sure I could stomach that. Could you? Just presume she is with OM. You don't need to know any more than that. It doesn't make a difference in what you need to do which is detach. Let go. Im still struggling as my wife just drags me back in.


As far as moving out, most say no way and I can see why. for me I have no choice as I cant afford to stay on my own. Me not being here though is the consequences she will see from her actions and as im the one who does 90% of all household jobs then this is what she will have to deal with. House is already a bomb site because ive stopped picking up after her. Add to that our D8 asking why im not here and when am I coming home, financial burden, friendship, moral support, care for D8 then it all starts adding up.

[Barry]

Hi Guys

So I'm a bit calmer now (thank goodness). I met up with my S18 on Monday night for a meal, he suggested it which was a nice thought. After we had been talking for a while, I asked him if he would prefer it if I didn't speak about W or our sitch (as I've said before, out of all the kids he's the one who struggles with the whole thing). He said if I wanted to talk about it that was fine. So I gave the following speech to him on Monday, and my D15 yesterday. My D13 is coming to see me this evening so I'll be telling him the same too..my S20 is also coming later, but it's slightly different for him as he doesn't live at home.

People may not agree with what I've done and am doing here, but I'm not seeing my kids anywhere near as much as I would like to (a lot of this is just because they have busy lives) but they need to be told a few important things by me.

I started off, and reitterated several times during the conversation that I'm not trying to poison my kids against their Mum, and I'm not saying anything bad about her but I do want them all to be 100% clear on how I'm feeling about all this. I'm asking them all just to listen and talk to me, but that it is between us only, I don't want it repeated to my W who will take it all the wrong way. They don't tell me what she's saying and I am only asking for the same courtesy.

I'm telling all of my kids that I. DO. NOT. WANT. THIS. (they are already fully aware of this!) and that I love them all no matter what.
Although I've played my part (and by God I played it well) in how we got here, I am NOT the one who is giving up on our R, our M, and breaking our family up. This is not to blame her entirely, but it IS her who is giving up at the moment.

I'm telling them that I want them to come and live with me if W carries on with this plan and doesn't have a change of heart. This is NOT to make them choose between their parents, but I said that I don't want any of them think for one minute that I don't want them to. Obviously, ideally we will all live together but I'm not being naive about the fact that right now, that doesn't seem likely. I haven't gone as far as to tell them all my plans (as they aren't 100% firm yet anyway) but I'm seriously considering buying her out of our home should it come to that, rather than selling up, splitting the money and having to rent forever - I've invested too many years (and money) into my mortgage to then have to rent. It's also something for me to leave the kids in years to come.

I'm telling them that although they (maybe/possibly) think I'm crazy at the moment (with me being so emotional, on anti-depressants, attending councilling etc whilst Mum is sitting there, quite content, feeling super confident, and calling all the shots), that ultimatly, I'm the one whose living in the real world. I don't want to be 18 again, I'm happy being a Dad, a husband hopefully, and although changes need to be made to my social life for my own wellbeing, and to the way I interact with W (or another partner if it goes badly), at least I'm thinking clearly about the repurcussions of all this on my family. W is not. She is feeling as though the end justifies the means.

I'm just trying to make sure that they are aware that Mum is NOT who they think she is any more. She may be putting the washing on and cooking their dinner, but the thought process going on in her mind right now is not the same as it once was. She wants out.

I have told them that I feel that W is going to regret this one day. Yes, she may have had her tummy tuck, her boob job, her Botox, and have turned into the butterfly she wants to be, but one day, she will look back on all this and realise that she let me go needlessly, broke my heart, and gave up something good. I could be wrong there, she's just as likely to meet the man of her dreams and live happily ever after I suppose.

These are difficult things to tell your children, particularly when they are living with W. I don't want to make them keep secrets (they are doing this for W anyway), or have to choose between us but they have to be made aware that things are going to drastically change in their lives and that they DO have a choice even if they don't want to make it. I'm just trying to prepare them.

I saw my doctor yesterday and said i wasn't sure if the meds were helping. He said to stick with them and that they (obviously) won't solve the problem - they are just to take the edge off. I've been taking them in the mornings up to now but I took in at bedtime last night, slept better and have felt more in control today so I'll change to that schedule.

I was also contacted by an IC (i'd been waiting for the call), and I start that tomorrow evening.

I'm sad of course because I know that my W doesn't love me any more, maybe she will again, maybe she won't. At this stage, I'm going with won't. I'm not snooping around any more as it's just making me ill. I'm still scared to death of the day she says the word divorce, or tells me she's met someone. I'm really trying not to think or care about it, but it's sooo hard being a LBS.

I really need to get working on some 180's and PMA more than anything right now. Although I'm keeping up with my fitness regime - gym/cycling etc, the GAL is difficult due to lack of transport but there are still things I'm doing and planning for once I get a car again. Not that we are having any contact at all now so I'm not really getting the opportunity to put this into practice but I am NOT going to get upset in front of W again, and I am NOT going to talk about R unless she brings it up.

Actions, Actions, Actions!!!

[Mozza]

My IC is in the business of pointing the contradictions between my actions and the way I portray them. It is quite striking to realize that things aren't as pretty as I like to think they are. I've realized I had issues that I refused to face by painting over them with language.

Your post reminded me of that. There are a lot of "but" in your post. As you know, these invalidate the statement before. Let's go through a few of them.

I'm not trying to poison my kids against their Mum, and I'm not saying anything bad about her but... BUT you say she's not living in reality, that she wants to be 18 again, she thinks the end justifies the means, ridicule her desire to improve her appearance, etc.

This is not to blame her entirely, but... BUT you don't want this and you are not the one giving up on the R and M. So the S is her fault.

This is NOT to make them choose between their parents, but... BUT you're already making them think about who they'll live with, which is the same thing.

I don't want to make them keep secrets (they are doing this for W anyway), or have to choose between us but... BUT you ask them not to repeat a thing to their mom.

So in the end:
- You want your kids to keep secrets.
- You tell them bad things about their mom.
- You want them to choose between their parents.
- You blame her for the S.

I was struck by this quote from Gandhi: Actions express priorities. If you don't want your kids to keep secrets, don't tell them any. If you don't want to say anything bad about their mom, then don't. Another solution is to admit that you want and do all of this. Simply realize what you're really doing. But you can't have it both ways. It's not helping you, nor your sitch.

You're a very sensitive man. There are many of us on these boards. You're going through the roughest period. Part of what's going to make it hard will be to reconcile your perception of who you are with who you really are. The "but" and "I'm just" are ways to cover what you're really trying to do.

I'm glad you're about to see an IC. I'm sure you'll be telling him all of your back story at this first meeting, but try early on to ask him about his approach to psychotherapy. There are a few schools, some of which are more practical and others more analytical. Hard to see which would be a good fit, but in general it's good to know what you're getting and what are the alternatives.

How are you doing on DR and NMMNG?

[Barry]

Hi all, not checked in for a couple of days.

Thanks Mozza. I don't 100% agree with your take on my post...however I can see what you're saying. It really isn't my intention to speak ill of my W, turn the kids against her, ridicule her, or blame her for the S. The reason I asked the kids to keep the conversation to themselves is that it will antagonise the sitch if they said it to her...I know how it sounds.
I didn't say it to them in the harsh manner that it's been portrayed in your post.

To pick up on a couple of your comments that you think are harsh on my W, but which I think are acceptable to say..

The "reality" of things is that there IS a way for my W to have her independance whilst also NOT destroying her R of 22 years, she only need talk to me about it so we can find and hopefully agree on a solution.

She DOES want to be 18 again. She is wanting to revert to a younger version of herself physically and mentally. I didn't ridicule her desire to improve her appearence, what I told the kids was that I understood WHY she wants to do that, there just isn't the best part of £10,000 of disposable cash to do that. If this goes badly for our M, the money would be suddenly there. As I said, it's not that I think this is at the forefront of W's mind, it maybe more a sub-concious thought.
It may not be in her thoughts at all...I was, and am mind-reading here.

The S is NOT her fault entirely. Yes, she instigated it and I had to go along with it as it was going to happen anyway. How we got to this stage is as much my fault (maybe more so?) than hers and I have told the kids that. It's true that I'm not the one giving up, she is.
This isn't to paint her in a bad light, just to show them that I think that a R is worth fighting for rather than throwing the towel in because you don't "feel it" any more.

I don't want them to have to choose between their parents at all. Not now, not ever. I want us to be a family again. However, in the current sitch, that looks unlikely. I don't want any of them thinking that I don't want to live with them - particularly because I moved out and am now the one not in the family unit. They understand why I did that, and they know that I'm not happy about it purely because I don't get to see them much. I miss them all, including my W.

All that being said, I do say "but", and "I'm just" a lot. I do see how it comes across in my communication, not necessarily here but in the "real world" too. The way I have communicated to my W has been a real problem for a while now. I'm really only starting to realise the effects of it now...now that it may be too late to change.

I had my session with my IC yesterday. She seems nice enough. It's in her home and is a comfortable setting. Obviously, as it was the first session, she wanted to know what had brought me to her so I went through my story from the beggining. As it was time limited, it forced me to not get hung up on some of the smaller details and I established a quite accurate account (from my perspective) of things over the last 2 years. She asked me what it was I hoping to get out of my sessions? I said that I'm hoping for practical solutions to change my behaviour so that I feel better about myself, am able to communicate better, and don't feel so depressed all the time. Ultimatly, I want to R with my W so anything that can help me prepare for that, or indeed help me cope with the devastation should that not happen, I will find helpful.

I've now finished DB (I re-read it and highlighted lots of parts as I'm sure many here have done). I found much of it makes so much sense, and that I've been doing so many things wrong - both lately and throughout my M. I wish I'd have read it years ago.
I have DR and NMMNG on order and will get started on them as soon as possible.

I've removed all social media apps from my phone, WhatsApp, FB, Twitter, Snapchat, Instagram (my kids are on all these!) really so the temptation to snoop can't be acted on so easily. It really isn't helping me in detaching as last weekend's fiasco proved. Any of my close friends wouldn't contact me on those platforms anyway so I'm not missing out on any GAL activities. I haven't been to the house since last weekend apart from to get some post.

Had a small amount of text contact with W over the last couple of days about kids, finances etc. I know it's pursuit but I did ask her to think about an evening out with me. Not to talk about our R, for me to get upset, or to re-hash over all the things we have already said. I'm aware that it'll be difficult but I just want to take a baby step in having a meal, going bowling, ice skating, anything she wants to do so that we can get together and hopefully have a laugh or two without feeling the pressure of having to discuss anything. I've been terrible for this up to now. I've found it hard not to talk about the M, or not to get upset. I know I can't do this any more if there is to be ANY chance of us starting something new.

She said she didn't know, she would think about it and let me know....at least it wasn't a flat out no! I've left the ball in her court.

I'm out for a meal with D15 and her boyfriend tonight (never did meet up for that coffee from last week). I've booked a nice restaurant locally which we can walk to. No major plans for the weekend apart from visiting the gym. I will be making lists this weekend of what worked when we got on, and what didn't, 180's, and generally preparing myself for the start of a new stage in this sitch. The start of me doing what I should be (DB'ing) instead of me doing more of the same!

I just hope it's not too late.

Barry.

[theoden]

Barry,

Here are some 2 X 4's across the head for you.

1. You are dragging your kids into this. Making your son lie to you wife while you snoop on the home computer and spy in her bedroom? Come on dude. Asking your kids to live with you? You shouldn't of moved out in the first place. Your wife started this mess, you walked out of the family home and now you want your kids to scramble and make up for YOUR absence. Your wife should have moved out and then her actions would have spoken for themselves. No you are trying to turn your kids against your wife for YOU moving out? Please stop this.

2. If you keep falling apart like this emotionally, your kids will want to live with your wife, who SEEMINGLY is acting like the stronger, clearer, self-confident, parent.

3. You have given ALL the power to your wife by begging, pleading and humiliating yourself in trying to get her back into the marriage. You are not very attractive right now. STOP pursuing her. It's pathetic and turning her off.

4. By chasing your wife you are not giving her the opportunity to miss you or conceive of a life without you. She wants her space right now, give it to her. By constantly trying to pull her back into the marriage, she is only going to feel smothered and will want to pull away more.

5. You wife is going to cheat on you, if not tomorrow, but very soon. Accept that fact. Her desire to look better and go out at night and take salacious selfies means she's going to want male attention. She'll get it, and she will have sex with someone else. You keep talking like that's the point of no return where you will really start to man up.(I won't pay the mortgage for her to shag someone use our house as her love-den) Start manning up now. She's going to cheat. It's almost a given.


7. It's never too late. Marriages recover after worse things. However, you current path of behavior is almost a guarantee for failure.

Now, some encouragement:

1. I've been there, too and made virtually all the same mistakes.

2. You do have the moral high ground.

3. You are a great guy. Go find that guy. Find your warrior self.

4. The more you focus on enjoying your own life (however impossible that sounds), the easier this will get, regardless of the outcome.

5. It's almost impossible not to want a certain outcome and be obsessed by your wife's every move and action.

--Theoden

[Barry]

Hi Theoden

I must have missed this post (I started a new thread with a change of mindset) but funnily enough, I've actioned or come to terms with almost all of your 2x4's above. The only one I can't think about is number 5 (suprisingly enough).

I don't talk to the kids about W unless they want to, and even then I don't ask anything that would put them in any sort of position.
Me asking them to live with me was more about letting them know that I WANT to live with them but due to my decision to let W live at home, that wasn't possible at the moment.
I understand your position on me moving out, it mirrors many other peoples views too. Ultimatly, I went with what I thought was best and stand by my decision.

I still have all the emotions of course, but they are only shown to a couple of close friends (who W doesn't know) and on this forum. I've really turned a corner in the last two weeks.

The pursuit, begging, crying, pleading and spying has stopped entirely. I'm only concentrating on myself and my kids.

It's not that I disagree with No.5, in fact it's because I know it to be true that I can't think about it. Whilst it isn't the case that she is with an OM (albeit that I know of), I have a miniscule amount of hope that we can work things out. W is not thinking about R at all and she may never do. It's early days though and maybe she just needs time to walk her path. If I'm honest, I can't even say right now that it WOULD be a deal breaker (apart from the part where I pay for her love nest) - that's how unsure I am about it.
I guess when it happens, I'll know.

I like No.7 - I've changed my path, but whether or not my M can recover is yet to be seen. W is on a different path at the moment. Maybe we will R, maybe we wont but I'll be stronger no matter what the outcome.

Barry.