So I am divorced.

[mahhhty]

First Thread... New England Newcomer

I'm back. I signed divorce papers on Friday. I closed on the house on Saturday morning. I had three friends come over. We then went to the mountains. We started hiking Saturday afternoon, slept in a cabin on the trail, and tried to summit on Sunday. We didn't unfortunately, the weather conditions were too much, -42 degrees, NW wind of 76 mph with gusts up to 82. It was exhilarating. We had a great time even though it was harsh conditions. I am now on business travel until Wed. And then this weekend I am going to pick up the kids and head to my sister's for Super Bowl weekend.

While we were signing, I made her laugh multiple times with jokes or stories about the kids. Then I agreed to take the papers to the court, and I brought them. Not her. I thought that was interesting.

Another interesting piece. We started officially dating after I returned from a 24 day backpacking trip in Costa Rica (she picked me up from the airport). That was 9 years to the day we divorced. Irony... I'm starting to think not.

Squiggy & Lost... thanks for looking out for me. I appreciate it!

[Squiggy]

Sorry to hear about the D, but then again, you handled it with style! Wish I could have been on that backpacking trip! Sounds right up my alley. I'm dying for spring and the chance to break out my hammock. Got a nice warm new sleeping bag from my FIL that I can't wait to try out.

You'll be fine in the end. I don't have to tell you that. I wish you the best of luck in all things, mahhhty.

[Mozza]

Hey mahhhty, I'm really sorry you got there. It seems like it was excruciating and I can see why.

So, what's the DB plan now?

[lost18]

Sorry M. You're trip sounded fun?? Haha....a little too cold for my blood!

Mozza poses a great question...What is your plan?

[bravo61]

Sorry for the D. Hope it gets better for u. Welcome, unfortunately to the club.

[mahhhty]

The trip was awesome, and it was very therapeutic. Headed back from my business trip today, and picking up the kids! I am super excited to see them!

I am detaching more, GAL'ing more, focusing on me more and my relationship with the munchkins. I need to get my life on track. I am using my gift of time.

However, I guess I never thought that just b/c there is a D that something had to change. I am still considering myself in the LRT club.

Hope is not lost until I choose to no longer have hope.

I don't know what life will have in store for me. But as of today, this is my opinion and my plan has not changed.

[TLEE86]

However, I guess I never thought that just b/c there is a D that something had to change. I am still considering myself in the LRT club.

Hope is not lost until I choose to no longer have hope.

I don't know what life will have in store for me. But as of today, this is my opinion and my plan has not changed.

I really admire this mahhhty. Keep DBing until either you are in a better place and/or you no longer choose to have hope for R between you and your W. Looking forward to following and reading about this next chapter in your life!

[mahhhty]

Mozza, TLE, Squiggy, Bravo, and last but definitely not least, Lost,
Thank you all for checking in.

I've been busy lately, with work travel, headed out of state for a long weekend with the munchkins to their cousin's, and working to wrap things up (divorce paperwork, loan for STBX, canceling all bills in her name, etc).

I have definitely been detaching, and I feel as if she is starting to feel it. Unfortunately, working out took a back seat over this little break, but I am going to resume the routine today. She has reached out to me almost every day (via text or email, never a call) with some sort of required action or piece of information. I keep responses light and short. I have no idea of what if anything she is doing with her life, she is not forthcoming with any information, has totally withdrawn from all social media and does not press me for any information about my life. I have also received a lot of buy-in on my startup, which is great to occupy my time when alone, and help me get to the point of working on my passion and not for the man.

I am going to revisit my 180s. Re-read DR. Re-read the Solo Partner. Re-read Talk to Me Like Someone You Love. And work the miscellaneous odds and ends. I have not sent her the letter. I will revisit that with my IC tomorrow. I also have not adjusted my Facebook relationship status. I have been waiting for her to do that. I wonder if I should bite the bullet?

[NewB3]

mahhty,
changing social status on FB will create some postings from friends and all that stuff. Just make your status private, so you only see it. No one will notice. I did mine a few weeks ago. I am as lost as you as to what to do now. Continue 180's. Get out and stay social. Not dating, but be with friends. Have fun, stay positive.
Something that has helped me, since the D day....Corey Wayne. Look him up, re-read all the DB stuff, stay here and ask questions...journal....read on this forum. Several of us have similar stories and are here to attempt help.

[Squiggy]

I'm so glad to hear that you are not stopping working on yourself despite the pending D. You are a strong person and will continue to soar upwards. Be careful of the hope and take it one day at a time. Things will fall into place as long as you continue to work hard and strive to become the man you are meant to be.

Grats on the startup! I hope to own a group private practice at some point, and the fear of putting myself out there is difficult to overcome. Glad to see it's working out for you.

What are the 180s and goals you plan to do at this point?

[lost18]

Sounds positive!

Thought of you the other day when I was reading a post (I believe by Underdog). She stated that she knew at least 5 couples that remarried after divorce. You seem to be doing the right thing and working on you. Good luck with your start up!

Also, re the FB status, touchy subject for me but in the overall scheme of things does it really matter? My H changed his to single in April or May and we're still married....change it or don't, the suggestion about making it private may be a good option. Whatever you feel comfortable with.

[mahhhty]

Thanks All.

Lost & NewB3... I think you are definitely right. Make it private and take that issue out. Therefore, I won't have to deal with it. Matter of fact I will do that right now... DONE. I think I did it right.

Squiggy... I need more time to redefine my 180s and my plan. But I am thinking about it consistently.

Had a thought provoking IC session today. We talked about the letter. IC believes it was good I didn't send it, he also believes that it is an analysis of our situation and not how I feel in my heart. I would have to agree with him. I told him that I don't know how to tell her what is in my heart. He then asked me, what is in there... I said I miss her, I do love her unconditionally, that I am proud that in a time she didn't have a voice, she found one and was very brave, and how although she was brave I do believe she was wrong (meaning we had something that we should have fought for it instead of divorce). He was of the opinion that a time and a place will occur in which I will have an opportunity to tell her that. That time is not now, as it is still too early.

Talked about a conversation I had with my sister. My sister told me last weekend that my default position in decisions is whatever will make the people I am around happiest. AKA I go out of my way to make other happy, regardless of if I am happy or not. He asked me if this is true, and I said definitely. We then discussed the times I have done that with the STBX during this process. He said she may think your kindness is a weakness and will then come to expect that level of leeway.

Next was me... in the past couple months I have gone almost 30 days w/out a drink (before the hike), worked out almost 30 times in 50 days (before the hike), I am also close to a 6 pack which is something I always wanted but never had, worked hard on my startup which is my passion, started saying no to work travel, and most importantly I have a better relationship with both of my kids! We started talking about all that. Perhaps none of that was possible without this. It wasn't until I felt complete loss that I was able to make significant life changes. That is an astonishing concept. My challenge is to keep it going and moving forward in the face of adversity.

Lastly, we talked about her. I told him that I feel like I am still mulling over the same issues. I don't know if she told me the complete picture to our divorce, I don't know at what point she made the decision to leave me, or at what point she was really unhappy or why. These have been my issues since day 1. He reiterated that I may not ever know. Perhaps it isn't for me to know. I have to accept that. He asked me if I wanted to talk to her or listen to her. I definitely want to listen, to hear her side unedited. However, I am an engineer and being me, I am afraid that I would try to "fix" or "discuss the solutions," instead of truly listening. That is definitely one of my 180s.

Regardless, the take away from today was... even though I am mulling over the same issues, positive change has happened. At times, I want instantaneous change, but this is not a sprint. It is a marathon.

My challenge is to ensure that it continues. To ensure that I am always moving in the positive direction and making my time on this planet worthwhile!

[mahhhty]

I've been a little down and out lately. My lower back has been acting up and all this snow has been keeping me inside. I need to get out do some yoga and go skiing (need skis and boats first though).

She is constantly on my mind. Our nightly talks with the kids are more friendly and she is keeping me in the loop with their activities when I am not around, sending me pictures and what not. I appreciate that.

Saturday, I cleaned out the closet (we have a walk in), which was 60% filled with her clothes that she left behind. I put them in bags and need to get them out. It was tough and I had been putting it off for a long time. It seemed that she didn't clean her side of the closet once since moving in (2010). This seemed ironic to me. A metaphor for all of her clutter that she hasn't dealt with perhaps.

Furthermore, I found stuff from our wedding. The homework we received from the person who married us. The writeup of all the speeches. The homework assignment was intriguing. We had to write 10 qualities about ourselves and 10 qualities about each other. My 10th quality about myself was that I have a short temper, her's was that she is passive aggressive. Sounds fairly accurate. The speeches were overall lovely and thoughtful. One piece that got me, was that her father stated that two people must continue to fall in and out of love throughout there lives together. That spoke to me, as she has professed that she is not in love with me.

It's unfortunate that a LBS just wants to make an impact (what action will get the biggest bang for your buck), but that it doesn't work like that. I need to continue to make consistent changes and live by Sandi's rules. And change the notion that turning my life around isn't about getting her back, but it is about me. I know this is true, I know my life has already improved in all areas. However, my motivation for this change is the hope that somehow she finds the way home, and not me.

[Little]

*hug*

[lost18]

I think you're doing great. It's ok feel to down, I'd be worried if you didn't. Just don't live there (like me lol)


"However, my motivation for this change is the hope that somehow she finds the way home, and not me."

I think this is normal, as long as your changes are things that you WANT to change and aren't going against your morals and values. Keep living your changes and it will eventually be more and more about you and less and less about her.

[mahhhty]

Thanks Little!
Lost - I think you are right! I definitely struggle & sometimes talk myself in circles.

Just had an email exchange about Easter weekend with the STBX. I am looking for some help in my communication with her. I am trying to validate and to not fix all problems and not try to take away her voice, but she is really pushing for control over all situations at all times. I am starting to think my kindness is seen as a weakness that she believes she can bully me into submission.

First email from STBX: "I keep forgetting to send this over...the only sticky week, like I was telling you, is the last week of March where I have an event at the beginning of the week and on top of that Easter is the following weekend. The paperwork says I have the kids on Easter for odd years. I think you either have that Friday or Monday off, I can't remember?"

My response: "STBX,
After the last couple 1 night stands, I don’t think those are great for the kids. I think we should give them more stability. The first and second week in April I would like to change, so that there aren’t any 1 night instances. The easiest way I see to do this is to trade days 4/2 & 4/3 with 4/6 & 4/7, as well as, you keeping them Saturday and I will pick them up in the morning (8-9) on Sunday. I am open to other suggestions as well. My holiday is Friday.

The attachment shows what you identified on the left and what I am suggesting on the right.

Thanks."

Her Response: "Hi. That is fine, but I would like them until 2:00pm on Easter. Attached is the revised version."

My Response: "I am not interested in seeing them less. Please propose something else. Or go back to the original schedule."

Hers: "I was already for-fitting time because of my work trip at the beginning of the week? In the parenting plan, the kids are with me for Easter morning. If you compare days in this three week period, you have them much more than I do. So it is very upsetting that you are coming after me for wanting to spend 5 hours with them on Easter."

Mine: "I don’t understand the question in the first sentence. Let me know if you would like me to address something there.

I am sorry that you feel as if I am “coming after you.” As I am the one who brought forth the alteration to your schedule, it isn’t clear me why you would feel that way. My motivation was for the children only.

I understand that you believe the Parenting Plan should take precedence. Thats fine, please resume the original schedule you came up with.

Comparing any 3 weeks isn’t a valid comparison and will always be skewed, as we have a two week rotating schedule. It will only be equal or approximately equal every 2, 4, 6 (even) number of weeks. To illustrate I took a normal three week period and attached it."

[Squiggy]

I think you did well in keeping to your boundaries and standing up for the time with your children. You're actually doing much better now than you were when you first arrived. Keep sticking to it and don't stop.

[mahhhty]

I appreciate that Squiggy.

Here is her response to my last email: "If your motivation was for the children only, then you would be fine with picking them up at 2pm on Easter (in the revised schedule) so that they can see me in them morning and avoid one-nighters."

How do I respond to this? Her logic is astounding. Apparently, I should give up my time with the kids now as well.

[mahhhty]

Definitely need some help on responding to her. Perhaps I should just ignore it. Or state please use the original schedule. However, below is my rant response. Which I probably shouldn't send.

"We were good parents b/c we collaborated on our parenting style and approach. We worked together. I would like to be able to collaborate on the schedule, without this level of reactivity and defensiveness. Your statement is hurtful, I do not understand your motivation for saying such a thing. As you know the time we get to spend with the kids is the most important thing and something we look forward to always.

My vacation day is Friday, and therefore, the change I proposed I would lose a full day with the kids, also I wouldn't get to see them on Saturday and none of that time would be made up. That was a compromise. You were obviously okay with the original schedule as you published it, if you don't find value in the change I proposed simply state that.

We have signed the paperwork, we have closed on the house, I have done all that you have wanted. Yet this remains, perhaps it is too soon to be nonreactive. I do not know your motivation to say such things. I do not understand your anger. When you are ready to tell me about all the fuel in your fire, I am ready to listen."

[mahhhty]

Just had some food and took a break. Much needed break.

I am going to go with something along these lines. "I am motivated to do what is right for the children, spending time with them and making memories. I am assuming as we did not agree that the original schedule stands."

Detaching response with no justification and no persuasion.

[SemperFi00]

hi mahhhty, just catching up on your situation. Isn't the NewEng weather fantastic lately........

for what it's worth (and I am certainly no expert - only just beginning to have to work through things like parenting schedules) your last response sounds very appropriate and respectfully detached.

Stay strong!

[mahhhty]

Thanks Semper! I took your advice. I definitely need to figure out how to better communicate with her.

My response:

I am motivated to do what is right for the children, spend time with them and make memories. I am assuming as we did not agree that the original schedule stands.

The closet is packed. Please let me know when you will be picking up the bags.

[mahhhty]

I just read Squiggy's thread. Today must be the day of troubled interaction with WAW day.

It felt easy to provide a recommendation to Squiggy but very difficult to do it in my situation. That's the hard part I suppose. I feel strong that my changes are good, but I need to spend a lot more time working on how to interact and detach.

I welcome any pointers, books or data...

[lost18]

It's always easy to give advice when you are not part of the equation.

Don't have much to offer as far as pointers, especially on the detachment, and I've read lots about it, just can't seem to apply it. Here is a link that I found somewhere that may be helpful.

http://www.livestrong.com/article/14712-developing-detachment/#JUMP4

[mahhhty]

Met the WAW at my first parent teacher conference for my D4.

Overall the conference went fine.

I pulled in right behind STBX. The first thing she says to me is "Hi. Did you sell the Jeep?" I said no it's in the shop. We go inside and wait for our turn. My STBX went to this preschool as well, and had the same teacher. While waiting, she tells me a story about how her mom asked her if she's worried about the conference. She said no because D4 is like her and they love her there. This theme repeated itself a few times. I realize that she had put herself up on a pedestal at least for the moment. All of D4's behaviors were linked to my STBX, this was slightly annoying to me, it felt a little more about talking about her rather than talking about our D4. Perhaps it was reliving "Glory Days." I'm not sure. It just seemed odd to me.

I really wanted to ask the teacher "Since W moved out, November, have you seen any kind of difference in D4's schooling?" But I didn't. I couldn't muster it, and they only had good things to say about her so I let it slide.

I looked good, felt good, smelled good (wink wink), was cordial, kept things short, as well as light, and left immediately after we walked out the door. She actually walked to the loaner and I had to redirect her.

More importantly, my D4 is doing wonderfully. I am so very proud of her and her brother! They really are the best of me.

[Squiggy]

Sorry it got so long to get back to you, man. Trust me, I completely understand what you mean by so easy to give advice, but it being so hard to do it on your own. Remember, I'm a therapist by profession and look at the mistakes I've made in my sitch! Once you mix up all the feelings into your thought process, things go out the window.

I love the positive outlook you while at the conference. No matter what WAW was doing, you were there for your D4 and supported her. You did great! Today must've been the day of positive interactions

Btw, I drive a Wrangler, fellow Jeep brother!

[mahhhty]

Squiggly, I love my Jeep. Always have. It has 177K right now and still going strong (most days).

Reading the qualities we wrote about each other and about ourselves in the marriage box, is like seeing a night and day comparison of ourselves from past to present day.

I've been angry and upset the last couple days. Thinking more about the many assumptions, decisions and actions that lead down this road. Last night's parent teacher conference and this upcoming weekend will be a great distraction as I have the kids until Monday. I am going to try my best to make it action packed.

[mahhhty]

She picked up the clothes tonight. It was interesting. She brought two candy apples for the kids for Valentine's Day. I offered that she could stop by tomorrow to give the treats to the kids in person tomorrow if she wanted. She said maybe, and then identified that she was going to try to make croissants from scratch and also recreate "The Newman" it is a speciality pizza that we used to get when we lived in CT.

I tried to validate as much as possible, and I asked no questions.

My daughter started crying while the STBX was here, so I had to attend to my daughter and the STBX texted me and left before I came back down.

[lost18]

Just checking in, not much advice just support. Also want to say that I think it's great you're so involved with your kiddos! Especially with them being so young, reading the stories on here many dads (mom's too to be fair) don't spend much time with their kids at all. You're a great dad!

[mahhhty]

Thanks Lost! I appreciate that. I was withdrawn while I was on business travel, going from a hectic work environment to home was difficult for me. Taking the business travel out of the mix, and realizing what is really important has made a big impact one me.

[mahhhty]

I hope all are dealing with V Day in their own way, but dealing with it in a fun way (if possible). I got two munchkins that are going to dress up (shirt & tie for one, and the other a dress) and we are going out to dinner for V Day, for the start of the impending blizzard.

I had an interesting conversation with a buddy and his significant this AM. They talked about the STBX's family posting things on Facebook. Upbeat posts about love and family and kids, etc. They asked me if it bothered me, and honestly, I hadn't paid attention to it... so No it doesn't bother me. They asked if I knew if it bothered STBX. I have no idea. It is her family, so obviously at this time and place I can't comment about it to her. But I would think that in such a hard time for their daughter/sister they would back off on posting how great their loves are and how wonderful their life is. I view it almost as them adding stress and pressure while she is already down. Definitely not considerate of their own flesh and blood or tactful in my opinion. In general, I don't see her "liking" these posts, but that is just a generalization. Stuff like that makes me dislike social media.

[mahhhty]

Short journal entry today... I saw another social media post. A letter the STBX wrote to hear parents, thanking them for the unconditional support and identifying that "Your marriage and the love your share is immensely inspiring."

That is difficult to read and slightly angers me.

Early on I spoke to her parents about her 4 premises (ILYBINILWY, I'm not happy, relationships aren't work & people don't change). Her own parents didn't agree with her premises, and her father described their journey as a journey that requires two people to work on their relationship and to continually fall in love over and over.

So although she believes it is immensely inspiring, does she believe that it doesn't always come easy or natural, and that somethings need effort.

I think I have been more in the anger stage of grieving lately. I haven't been showing it to her or projecting it to her. But I am upset and my head naturally defaults to thinking about this. I need to shake it. More GAL'ing I think.

[Mozza]

I would say that she's trying to obfuscate the contradiction between her behaviour and values. She's aware of it, at least at the subconscious level. Make no bones about it even though I understand why it's upsetting.

In Facebook, you can hide a person's post from your feed without de friending them. I did it a few months ago with the support of this community and it did e a lot of good. Her posts don't swing my moods anymore. You can still go to her profile. It's been 11 days and counting for me, a personal record for me!

[lnlyshp]

mahhhty,

Social media can be a tough thing to navigate during difficult times. I personally made the choice to "block" STBX on FB and other platforms because nothing she posted ever made me feel good - at best I convinced myself I didn't care and at worst, it made me really angry or hurt. I explained to her that I wasn't blocking her out of anger - just for my own good. I don't know if this is something you're interested in doing, but I think it helped me quite a bit.

I wanted to ask you about hope. I think you and I are in similar stages of D process and you commented the other day in my thread to the effect of "it doesn't have to change anything if you don't want it to." I've been thinking about that a lot lately. How do you maintain hope? I don't mean to imply your situation is hopeless at all. I guess I'm just wondering where your will to keep fighting comes from. When she filed, I think most of my hope died and when I file soon, that pretty much seals the deal aside from the mandatory waiting period my state dictates.

Thanks again and sending good thoughts your way.
- ship

[mahhhty]

Thanks Mozza & lnlyship. You are right about blocking, hiding & de-friending. I usually choose the path of least resistance, so hiding seems appropriate for me. I hate drama. I've been trying to take out the high's and low's of the roller coaster lately, I think that kind of maneuver would be good.

[mahhhty]

ship - Here is my dissertation on hope. I hope there is something in this that is useful to you. This is what I believe today in my heart & mind. Of course I maintain that this could change over time, but what in life remains exactly the same overtime?

I wanted to ask you about hope. I think you and I are in similar stages of D process and you commented the other day in my thread to the effect of "it doesn't have to change anything if you don't want it to." I've been thinking about that a lot lately. How do you maintain hope? I don't mean to imply your situation is hopeless at all. I guess I'm just wondering where your will to keep fighting comes from. When she filed, I think most of my hope died and when I file soon, that pretty much seals the deal aside from the mandatory waiting period my state dictates.

Honestly, I’ve never dived into this topic before. What fuels my hope??? I think it is for a host of reasons.

Our Story… In my opinion our story was tremendous. It was real, alive, fun, the best version of love two people could have (in my opinion or at least the best in my life). I didn’t second guess it, and I knew I wanted to be in her life everyday until the end of days. This came from a guy, who never brought girls home, never had a long term relationship, etc. I know this is true for her as well because she wrote it down in multiple places/things that I still have.

Our Kids… We have wonderful kids and we were great parents (this was actually one of her issues, that we operating at a co-parenting level). The kids are only 4 and 2, and already they have made attempts to get her here or me over there. I can see that they have a longing for us to be together already.

Happiness… I read an article about happiness as it relates to a couple’s status (together, separated, & divorced). Divorced people aren’t as happy as separated people, people who are together with their kids are the most happy. The article had stats to back it up in all situations. Her main issue was that she wanted to be happy. This does not match what I read. As a WAW she might believe she has tried everything, I didn’t step up until I saw her actions. To my understanding we are very close to the typical situation (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyty0xb7IMM). I believe that the issue and the solution (divorce) don’t match, and I believe that happiness as individuals, as a couple, and as a family is possible. I still visualize what that looks like.

Individual Strength… I believe that what doesn’t kill you can make you stronger. It doesn’t have to, but it can if you are honest with yourself, willing to put in the work and not scared to “fail.” Thomas Edison said "I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work."

Couple Strength… Similarly to individual strength, I believe that if we were to reconcile and both of us had a willingness to look into our hearts and be honest with ourselves and each other, that we could address the issues, and be stronger as a couple/family.

“For Better or Worst”… This is the worst. I didn’t need a law, lawyer, mediation, or paperwork to ask her out or to be with her. So why should I let those documents & paperwork dictate that this is over. I believed in my vows. I believed in her. I believed in us. I believe that for better or worst. This is the worst (that we have known). In reading this board alone there is a multitude of people dealing with infidelity, drugs, mental health issues, etc. Those people are finding strength in this board to continue or to reconcile. Why can’t I? Why them and not me? I believe that if I want it bad enough and I work hard enough to understand and make lasting change, it is possible. Basically, bottom line is that it isn’t over until I say its over or believe its over.

Hope… In the beginning of the separation/divorce process, I was looking for validation from friends and family for everything I was doing or not doing, and also for this outlook of not quitting. Most, if not all, don’t believe in it, can’t fathom it, and don’t want to see me get hurt and therefore, discourage it. It doesn’t make sense to most people. Somedays it doesn’t make sense to me, somedays I do think about dating someone else, look at this like a clean slate. However, most days I miss her. Most days I think about carrying her up the stairs, hearing her infectious laugh, thinking about our memories or holding her close. I don’t want the relationship we had at the end, because she is right that was a coparenting relationship. I want a better relationship, when were we can share ourselves openly, maintain our individuality, share in life & experiences and be intimate as we once were.

She was brave to go down this road and put it all on the line for something she believed no matter what the reasons. She always knew she was passive aggressive. This obviously illustrates that even further (I was no saint either). But our issues were only in this highly stressed, young parent stage of our lives, and therefore, I believe in all the other years we had. In my estimation, this is perhaps 2 out of 10 years. This isn’t who we are but it is who we are right now (or who we were right then).

And therefore, I have hope. She fell for me once. I believe there is a person in there who will fall for me again (illustrated by different happenings, especially that drunk night many months ago).

I believe anything is possible, once I am able to step up, be the father and man I am supposed to be, detach, forgive her and reclaim my life.

[mahhhty]

ship - here is another link. watch all the way to the end. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AmhQKUMh340

[Mozza]

Thanks a lot for your post on hope, mahhhty. It's nice to know how each of us see our sitch, where we find hope. It looks to me like you have plenty of good reasons to hope, now let's see how these evolve, how you handle them over time. In my sitch, I'm both willing to hope and to move on, but that second part has taken me a few months to reach and perhaps I'm not entirely there yet.

[mahhhty]

Mozza. I'm with you. I am there in words, but not yet there in mind & action. However, as you know, I have hope.

[mahhhty]

Just got out of a case manager meeting, to resolve a bunch of discrepancies with the paperwork. Although we filed weeks ago we aren't truly divorced. According to the case manager it should occur by the weekend.

I tried to be helpful, engaged, and tried to resolve all problems. However, I was not overly happy perhaps slightly grumpy.

Almost all of the paperwork had issues with it, imagine that. Perhaps we should have taken the time to do it correctly. Oh well. It didn't require any extra money so perhaps thats a good thing for another set of eyes.

On the walk out, she was upbeat, perhaps even happy, telling story after story about the kids. After a 45 second walk I had enough. When she finished telling me the last story, I interjected "Well, have fun with the kids tonight" and started walking away immediately. I think she would have loved to continue talking, but I don't know. Perhaps she is truly happy without me.

[Vapo]

Guys, a little hope is a dangerous thing. When you have hope, you tend to have expectations, and you should have NONE. Because EXPECTATIONS lead to HEARTACHES and our poor tormented hearts have been through a lot. Keep in mind, that we only get one heart and we should take care of it.

I found it best to give it all to the higher power and move along your own path, because move along your path you must. Do not stop, do not wait for her to follow. She might, or she might not, but one thing is certain, if you stand still you will not go forward and neither will she. Mozza knows that you CANNOT nice her back, you CANNOT LOVE her back to you. IT DOES NOT WORK! You can try, but you will just waste a couple of months of quality time that you should spend on yourself. I know I might be just whistling dixie to you, but make a note of my reply and get back to me in 3 months' time.

LOVE YOURSELF FIRST. YOU MATTER. You should be the most important person to YOU, but we LBSs tend to take care of ourselves the worst... I'm sure you can think of 10 examples of how you would give an arm and a leg to get your W back, but hardly any where you treated yourself kindly...

MOZZ, I am following you around on this board and you offer great advice to fellow travelers, but I have also noticed, that you are not so good at following your own advice. I see that a lot, also in myself...

MAHH, just be the best dad you can be, focus on yourself, improve yourself, work on becoming the man that only a fool would leave. It might not get your W back, but it will get YOU back. The new and improved YOU. And lord knows there is a lot of room for improvement in all of us and the best we can hope to achieve is to improve a little each and every day. That's how you become a great man.

Peace to you all my fellow travelers...

[Mozza]

MOZZ, I am following you around on this board and you offer great advice to fellow travelers, but I have also noticed, that you are not so good at following your own advice. I see that a lot, also in myself...

Yes, it seems so much easier to see clearly through to other people's stiches. Ours always seem full of nuances, of exceptions, of emergencies, etc. I'm flattered that you follow my sitch and posts. Please, if you see me not following my own advice, come over and call me on it. Sometimes, I might not even realize it.

Peace to you all my fellow travelers...

Thanks Vapo. Will you also share you story with us? I see that you have no signature, nor topics created. I'd be happy to know about your own travels in DBland.

[mahhhty]

Vapo -

I've sat on your response for days. Reading and re-reading. I can tell your response has merit and experience behind it, and honestly I can fathom or rationalize your response and think it may be correct, but I think for me hope is a requirement. Although I have hope, I don't have expectations. The process has taught me better than that. However, hope provides me motivation to workout, read the books, go to school on myself and our relationship and make changes in my life.

[lost18]

Although I have hope, I don't have expectations. The process has taught me better than that. However, hope provides me motivation to workout, read the books, go to school on myself and our relationship and make changes in my life.

I'm with you M-Expectations are dangerous, hope is essential to a point. Keep on doing what you're doing!

[mahhhty]

Been doing my best lately. Going out with friends. Getting her things out of the house. Going skiing. Ordered things to make the house more my home (picture frames, different pictures and artwork, etc). I have digressed a little in the area of being happy around her (part of Sandis rules). When we are one on one, I am not happy, I try to validate and follow the other rules, but my emotional state is one of grumpiness. I think its part of the anger I've been dealing with. It is interesting though, my friends tried to take her down a few pegs the other day in front of me, and I made them stop. I don't believe this is who she is, I believe it is who she is right now. Hearing the things they had to say was of no interest to me and nor did I want to hear them.

[mahhhty]

In more recent news, I am trying to do better with boundaries and received a test this AM. Any thoughts on how I handled it?

First email from her:
"Good morning. I wanted to let you know that I'm going on a trip out west this week. I have the kids staying at my parent's tomorrow night (the only night that is effected). They obviously would like to have the kids overnight every so often, but if you have a problem with that then please say so and we can change the plan.

Thanks"

My response:
"Happy Monday. I have zero problem with them staying overnight with your parents. I understand it is easier and more comfortable to arrange the schedule with your parents instead of me. According to our paperwork I should have the opportunity to keep them overnight first. I could be reading into your email, but it seems that you have already arranged it with your parents. I would appreciate that we discuss it next time prior to making plans. I haven’t seen them in 3 days and would have loved the opportunity.

Enjoy out west and have a safe trip."

[mahhhty]

We had a couple more rounds today. They seem to have gone okay. She was considerate, I tried to be more rigid than I normally am, adhering to the boundaries and paperwork we have. In hopes that she understands I need to be a part of the decision making process rather than being told the outcome. This is obviously a lesson learned from our breakdown.

These discussions are so benign compared to others in the forum and the ones we have had previously. The divorce paperwork will be signed by a judge soon, I have given her the equity and cash according to our agreements. Discussions now only need to be based on the kids.

I believe I have very little opportunity to make an impact, as the communication is at a 10 year low. Its time to do some more reading and re-evaluate my current standing and goals.

[lost18]

I read your response yesterday and thought you did a good job, when I read it again today I think I would change some things in future exchanges.


"I understand it is easier and more comfortable to arrange the schedule with your parents instead of me."

This to me sounds like you know she doesn't want to or that you are difficult to deal with. Don't put negative thoughts in her head that she may or may not have.

How about keeping it simple.


"Happy Monday. I have zero problem with them staying overnight with your parents this time. In the future if I could have the opportunity to keep them first per our agreement I would appreciate it.

Enjoy out west and have a safe trip."

Or something along those lines, maybe somebody who has more experience with this can offer some advice.

[mahhhty]

Thanks Lost... You are definitely right. These days I don't have many opportunities to interact. I am just trying to make sure I do a good job when I have an opportunity. Thank you for the input!

[mahhhty]

Last night, she did something nice for me. I called to say goodnight to the kids, but did so very late. About 35 minutes after their bedtime. She picked up the phone and I relied to her that I just lost track of time. She said no problem and that she believed they were still awake. So I got to say goodnight to them. After I said goodnight, she was trying to coax my daughter to tell me something that she had been saying throughout the day.Then STBX stated that "D4 says she has the best Daddy in the whole world." Then D4 said "I sure do, best Daddy in the whole wide world." She was so happy, it just melted my heart. I started to tear up afterwards.

I realize it is a small thing, but she didn't have to bring it up. I appreciate that she did, and texted her thank you. I see she is trying to reinforce my relationship with the kids, which I also appreciate and am trying to do for her as well.

The topic of being a good father has always struck a soft spot with me. The only time I can clearly remember STBX saying I was a good father was one of the nights we were have R talks. I don't remember hearing it from her in the previous 4 years of being a Dad. My neediness, withdrawal and pursuit were fueled in a way by the rejection I felt as her best friend, husband, partner and as a father, as seen by her. I wasn't comfortable with me, my life and/or decisions and therefore needed her approval/validation.... anyway rant over. time for bed.

[mahhhty]

Tides turn quick in these waters. My sails are deflated today, as I just received the final paperwork, signed by the judge. In the eyes of the law our marriage is over. I knew it would happen, but it still unfortunate. Irrevocable differences still makes my blood boil, although I did not put up much of a fight over it. The meaning of irrevocable is... not able to be changed, reversed, or recovered; final. However, there was never a joint attempt to fix things. That is truly unfortunate for us as individuals and most importantly our munchkins. I have them this weekend and will be going over and above to have a great weekend.

Interesting though... They day I receive the papers, I also received a custom print I ordered from the UK for my bedroom. It is William Ernest Henley's poem, Invictus. Coincidence, I choose to believe that it is not. I find solace in this poem, as its theme is the will to survive a severe test. I believe it is a good representation of the internal struggle I (we) face in our relationships as individuals.

"Out of the night that covers me,
Black as the pit from pole to pole,
I thank whatever gods may be
For my unconquerable soul.

In the fell clutch of circumstance
I have not winced nor cried aloud.
Under the bludgeonings of chance
My head is bloody, but unbowed.

Beyond this place of wrath and tears
Looms but the Horror of the shade,
And yet the menace of the years
Finds and shall find me unafraid.

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishments the scroll,
I am the master of my fate,
I am the captain of my soul."

- W. E. Henley 1875

[mahhhty]

Had another good session with the IC today. We have been spreading out our sessions as I feel myself coming into my own. Today we talked about my anger. And he asked whether it is anger or disappointment. And I'd have to say it's disappointment not anger. The emptiness or hole that exists causes me to be in a bad mood. Regardless, that is part of this, and I have to keep marching through it.

We also talked about the pre-wedding homework, and the fact I identified myself as short tempered and she identified herself as passive aggressive. He believes it makes a lot of sense, knowing what we know now. It was an incredible piece of foreshadowing. He asked if I know what she is doing now. And I don't. I have not a clue. I hope she is working through her situation. I wish I could help in someway, but I know I should not and honestly I can't (as we have little interaction).

At the end, we did discuss me asking her out to lunch. That was an interesting conversation. He believes it will be a good opportunity to connect with her and try to work on developing our new co-parenting relationship. It will also give me face time with her to improve our situation. The thought of it was a difficult one. I'm not sure I am ready for this kind of interaction. I have learned a lot but don't have a ton of practice implementing the techniques (validation, de-escalating conflict, etc). I would hate to have a negative interaction. But it would give us a chance to discuss how we want to handle certain situations, the ability to express thanks (for situations like the other day with the late phone call), and get on the same page about the kids. It does have merit, but I'm still a little raw.

[Sotto]

Hi Mahhhty - maybe you could start smaller than lunch....coffee?

[mahhhty]

Coffee... that sounds more do-able. Thanks Toots. I'm not sure how ready I am for something like that (without any backslides or negative issues). I'll look to see if I believe there is any potential.

[lost18]

My counselor continues to suggest that I do/say things that I'm not ready for either. I agree with toots on starting small, but whatever and whenever or if you decide to do that make sure you have no expectations (easier said than done!)

Also, have some sort of plan in place. Do you want it to be friendly? or is there something (coparenting plan) you are trying to achieve. Also, have an out if things go south...just a suggestion.

[mahhhty]

There have been a bunch of random things to catch up on.

Coffee time...I've made no move on the coffee/get together front. I'm going to wait a little longer.

Her business travel.... Social media enlightened me that she was on business travel to a western ski town. One that I have friends in and asked her to go to multiple times and we never went. This is absolutely no reflection on her, most likely it is a coincidence. It is just a crappy one from my perspective.

Texts... I've noticed that out of 7 days in the week, I am getting texts 4-5 days of the week. Since she has been back from travel, I've received them in back to back days and they had nothing to do with the kids immediate care or the divorce. I'm definitely dark. I don't initiate any calls or texts to her. I return calls if needed and return some texts but not all.

GAL... I'm back lifting at a better pace and with a new routine. My back pain is gone. I've been skiing multiple times, and with the warm weather streak, I'll be kayaking this weekend. I've also been buying a lot of new things. New pictures and an "art line" for the munchkin's creations, to transform the dinning room. New art, bedding, frames for the master bedroom. I've definitely been busy.

I've been thinking about trying to record all the pieces of the story, my understanding at least, as well as, what I can learn from it and what I have changed in me or am trying to change. This would be in the form of an essay or perhaps a letter. But my understanding at this moment is that I won't be sending her any of these letters.

[mahhhty]

With daycare in full swing and no vacation days, I only see her every other Friday. Today was one of those Fridays. She came in very pleasant with a smile on her face, obviously excited to see the munchkins. I was pleasant but reserved, we have very little eye contact or discussions.

Today I asked her to sign the escrow check and had a check for half of it ready to give her (from the refinance). She honestly didn't even know about the check, but her half was around $950. This is the third check I have given her half of that was unexpected to her. I have no problem giving her that money b/c it is the right thing to do. What I have a problem with is her not even saying thank you. I think I also have a problem that she didn't say thank you for the $5K discrepancy in the CS paperwork, and also that she didn't say I'm sorry for her piece of this until the drunken night when she wanted to hook up (which she doesn't remember).

I have little insight into her life and don't pretend to know what is going on. But the sense of entitlement and lack of common curtesy bothers me.

I am detaching at a snail's pace. I don't feel the heart racing anymore and haven't for many weeks, I just feel the dull emptiness that is my relationship with her.

On the phone during the nightly "good night talks" with the kids, I am doing better, and crack at least 1 joke that she laughs at every time. However, in person I am slightly passive, bad at small talk, don't always say good bye to her, and usually fact based.

I'm flirting with the idea of blowing off the work day and going skiing.

[mahhhty]

Went skiing yesterday, going whitewater kayaking today.

While skiing I had the goodnight talk with her and the kids. It's obvious to me that I do so much better in those situations. She even was bringing conversation to the table. A good example was her promoting d4 to ask me questions about electricity. D4 asked how it worked and X identified that I could tell her. Then we starred joking that electricity was magic and I am a magician. It was fun family like conversation. So I know my name is being thrown around over there which made me slightly happy.

I've often thought if I could manufacture a moment, a kiss, it would throw her world upside down, and perhaps challenge her ideas/feelings. But that is pursuit, and not part of the game plan.

Time to go get wet!

[lost18]

Hey M, stopping by. I haven't been posting much lately but know I'm still in your corner. It's good you have a plan...I think maybe I need a more solid plan too!

Sounds like you are doing great with GAL! Sounds fun!

[mahhhty]

I've been on work travel all week. I head home tomorrow and get to pick up the munchkins. I miss them. The nightly phone calls don't do our relationship justice. I need to keep pushing the start ups forward to get out of my current position.

Tonight, I saw a family of four walk out of the restaurant to their car... the Mom was walking hand and hand with the father and her son. While the Dad was walking hand and hand with the Mom and daughter. I pray that those days are still in my future. I miss my family. I miss my wife.

[mahhhty]

Here's my journal update...

Lunch/Coffee time... I still have made no moves on this front. I realize it is needed there is many co-parenting issues we could talk about.

Texts... Have slowed down for the moment. However we did have a correspondence last night. She texted me, I kept it going and kept it light, then shut it down with a "have a good Monday. Good night."

GAL... My GAL is good. I'm going out, going skiing, going kayaking. Working out has suffered due to kayaking and skiing but it is still 2 to 3 times a week. At 32 my body is probably in the best shape it's ever been and my mind is sharp but cluttered with items related to her. I'm also making an effort to see my sisters kids more. I am their fun uncle. And more importantly, I'm a better dad. Capable of providing nurture, fun, imagination and discipline for my munchkins. On the negative side I have binge watched some TV shows, don't sleep all that well, and really struggle in the mornings I don't have the kids.

The Clutter... The clutter for me is the things that are always on my mind. I enjoy sports like kayaking and skiing because they get me outside of my mind and into the moment. However my mind focuses on questions. Why are there so many things left unsaid? Why did she believe her premises? Why did I not see any of this sooner? Why did she believe it was not possible to reconcile? And millions more. My engineer brain also tries to rationalize/analyze all previous interactions and current interactions.

This clutter is how I know I am not truly detached. I have no relationship with her to speak of, we rarely talk, but I know that if we were to talk more she wouldn't be talking to someone who was truly detached. Perhaps this is why I haven't moved forward with the lunch idea.

[mahhhty]

I forgot... To Sandi - I've followed your posts around the board. Your thread on LBHs and so many more are very informative. Thank you for taking the time routinely to help others. I have learned many many things from your posts!

[Vanilla]

Originally posted on Susanas thread today

At any rate, I've been trying to work on gratitude and WOA, but so far when I thank him for something he does around the house (say, doing the laundry or taking out the trash) he tends to say "don't thank me for that, it's nothing" and when I compliment him on something he'll say "no I'm not that good, that's not true." I don't know if I'm totally missing the mark here frown Or if his self esteem is really so low he can't take a compliment right now. And I don't know if that means I ought to continue with the compliments in spite of his words to the contrary.

You know what... I do the same thing. When X would thank me for something, I would say "Don't worry about it" or "You don't have to thank me." And I meant it. She shouldn't have to thank me for doing things I should be doing. HOWEVER, I liked that she noticed I was doing things, and honestly, I really did want her to thank me.

I have a slightly different spin on it... try to do something he knows you don't like, and if (and I do mean IF) he thanks you say, "Oh well I thought because you did X, a good thank you would be for me to do Y."

Just an idea!

As human beings a tiny frisson of joy every time?

What a joy to be appreciated.

Just saying..........

V

[lost18]

"GAL... My GAL is good. I'm going out, going skiing, going kayaking. Working out has suffered due to kayaking and skiing but it is still 2 to 3 times a week. At 32 my body is probably in the best shape it's ever been and my mind is sharp but cluttered with items related to her. I'm also making an effort to see my sisters kids more. I am their fun uncle. And more importantly, I'm a better dad. Capable of providing nurture, fun, imagination and discipline for my munchkins."

Love this, great job!

"The Clutter... The clutter for me is the things that are always on my mind. I enjoy sports like kayaking and skiing because they get me outside of my mind and into the moment. However my mind focuses on questions. Why are there so many things left unsaid? Why did she believe her premises? Why did I not see any of this sooner? Why did she believe it was not possible to reconcile? And millions more. My engineer brain also tries to rationalize/analyze all previous interactions and current interactions."

I'm sure we all do this...I know I do. 25 has talked about this quite a bit. I think you just need to make a conscious effort to limit the "why" thoughts. These are questions that may never get answered. I was listening to a podcast that addressed this. I wish I could remember exactly what it said but I'll try to summarize as best I can remember. Basically being stuck in the "why" questions leads to blame which leads to resentment (anger and other negative feelings) which isn't a good place to be. The best way to deal with these questions is to understand you have them and how limiting they can be but don't get stuck there. Instead, change the questions to "what can I do differently moving forward?"

Detaching is not easy that is for sure and if you're not comfortable doing lunch or coffee than don't force yourself into it. You can discuss co-parenting issues without doing that.

[mahhhty]

As human beings a tiny frisson of joy every time?

What a joy to be appreciated.
V

You are absolutely right Vanilla!

[mahhhty]

Basically being stuck in the "why" questions leads to blame which leads to resentment (anger and other negative feelings) which isn't a good place to be. The best way to deal with these questions is to understand you have them and how limiting they can be but don't get stuck there. Instead, change the questions to "what can I do differently moving forward?"

Lost - I think you are absolutely right. It makes so much sense to me, but I never thought about it that way. Why questions (Why did she do this or that, why did I do this or that?) leads to blame then to resentment/anger/disappointment. Perhaps this is the funk I have been in. Its amazing how you read something for the first time and just clicks.

After reading this and reading Sandi's writeup about LBH, I think in the beginning I signed up to be the bad guy. I let her unload, and all I did was validate, cower and accept the blame. I was not myself, and honestly had not been for a long time. I think the loss of my wife and our sex life after the kids came, had a significant impact on me. Regardless, this all provided me the motivation for knowledge, introspection and change (well that and the fact I was now a LBH).

Getting back to the point, I think at the end of the day I ask the why questions to prove to myself that I am not a terrible person, and didn't solely push my wife away. I understand the way MWD identifies a WAW, is that they believe they have tried everything and that the relationship can't be fixed. I would hope on some level my X believes that she did try everything. From my perspective, I don't believe that everything was tried, b/c I felt so in the dark. I believe a combination of our lack of sex, or quality time of any nature, compounded with my withdrawal, both of us placing careers over each other, our lack of communication, her passive aggressiveness and both of us being stubborn, as well as, us being in the marriage map stage of pointing fingers, is to blame for our demise, along with a million other things.

This is nothing new for my situation. However, what is new is my response. I am going to do my best to accept, that these things will not be answered and that my understanding is sufficient. I will continue to try to learn and understand what I can do differently to promote healthy behavior and relationships. But I will no longer complain about the "why's," therefore no longer playing the blame game, therefore no longer storing resentment for a rainy day.

Thank you Lost for the support!

[mahhhty]

Just wrapped up an IC appointment. At the end he asked what I wanted to do for the future, then implied the worst is over, a plateau is imminent, and that I am more than capable to handle the plateau.

All and all a good meeting. Moral of the story... Do things that make me happy. Create flow moments with the kids, kayaking, skiing, and business ventures. Meet her with compassion, grace and strength. Always keep the kids as the primary interest. And realize that the unanswered questions, don't need answering to move forward.

With that being said, we pushed out the appointments to more than a month between sessions. I'm definitely on my way out of this chapter and ready for a new one.

[mahhhty]

It's only appropriate that I talk to the IC about piecing today and come home to this gem from Sandi.

From...
Re: For the Newcomer LBH who has a wayward wife Part 2 http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...nt=2&page=2

Yes, I would LOVE to see Sandi expound upon a "Letting Them Back Too Easy?" theme, from her unique FWW perspective.

We have to consider the makeup of the wayward mindset. In my simple breakdown, I would say there are 3 main veins that run to the wayward heart/mind. Those 3 are Resentment, Disrespect, and Rebellion. If you have ever experienced dealing with these feelings yourself, or dealt with another person who had them......you know it takes a lot of work to resolve those feelings completely.

Even if she is willing and trying to come to terms with it, the emotion and flashbacks that caused the resentment, still want to creep around inside her head. And there are trigger points that can set it into a beinge effect. If she has allowed herself to be controlled by her emotions (which, of course, waywards do) then it will prove to be very challenging for her and the H, just in different ways. However, I am a firm believer that it can be accomplished, if the WW wants to let go of it badly enough. Sadly, many don't want to turn lose of anger or whatever seems to control them at the moment, as crazy as that sounds. It requires a lot of self discipline, and which we know WW's have very little. Intellectually, they know they should do everything in their power to get rid of it. But what will it take to give them that "want to" get rid of it? That is the question that leads back to the H not being able to force her what to feel. However, he can certainly influence!

I wish I knew how to explain the dynamics in the female - male relationship. Then perhaps I could better explain why her respect for the H is vitally important, and how that respect, or disrespect, affects their entire MR. It definately affects her feelings for him (and I will get back to this in a second). If a man allows his WW back into the MR........knowing he does not have her respect, he will never be appreciated, much less admired. Unless she simply fakes it, she can't admire him. Those dynamics would also better explain why she has the rebellious attitude with him, as though she were a teenager and he was the parent. It is a very complex relationship and it leaves the H completely baffled with why she would say and do some of the things she does in her wayward state.

LBH's should not let her back too easily, with no questions, no discussions or decisions. He had better have a plan and have an agreement from her to cooperate 100% with his plan before he evers says they can reconcile......then hold her to it. Rug sweeping is no solution, period. It makes matters worse, so that route needs to be taken off the table immediately. Neither can the H "nice" her out of her waywardness. This is where I think some of the LBW's here on the board may have a problem with some of the tough love advice. B/c they would love it if their bad H was nice, especially if he had been abusive. However, these ladies are not wayward, and that's the main difference. I am telling you it does not work with a wayward woman. It stems from those three areas......resentment, disrespect, and rebellion.

There are some things that time eventually heals, but I personally do not believe time, alone, can heal matters of this nature. Time, coupled with good counseling can help with
a big part. However, before a woman can begin to resolve these problems, she has to be willing to work at leaning how to let go of the past and stop blaming her H for everything. in her frame of mind, I believe she has to have some type of guidance from an unbiased source........and preferably, professional. I don't mean attending MC with her H, either. She first needs help just for herself. If she has a spiritual leader, I would recommend spiritual counseling, b/c these are matters of the heart. Once she begins to deal honestly with her feelings......and is seeking to learn new skills, the couple stands such a better chance at reconciling. And then the couple should attend a good MC or a highly recommended M program, support groups or something that will help guide them through Piecing. Just leaving a couple to figure it out on their own is not the healthiest of choices. The main ingredient there is willingness from both sides.

I believe a woman cannot hold on to these three issues toward her H and/or the M, and have a warm, loving, sexual desire for him. These strong, negative feelings will surface almost daily in some sort of fashion. Some women may be HD enough they will want the act of sex, but they use the man as if he were some type of object in order for her to receive pleasure. Some women may play along and just tolerate the sex, but she doesn't feel the attraction and desire for him. And that's not to mention those who use sex as a way to manipulate the H. She may go through the act of ML, but that's all it will be. I can't give any scientific proof, IJMHO, that it is impossible for a woman to have that kind of inner contempt for her H.......and be able to feel attraction/desire for him. I believe that is the true source for a lot of SSM.

She has to find appropriate means to help her resolve this mindset in order to have peace within herself. By that, I mean her meeting with her new friends at the bar is not the guidance she should receive to resolve her bad feelings. Even if she were to move on to another relationship, this mindset toward her H, consequently affects her ability to have complete contentment in her life, IMO. She may try to ignore it, deny it, and act otherwise......but it still lives in her heart and it is a dark, cold leach that [censored] away at the core of her spirit. So, just imagine how it would be for the LBH to allow his WW to return to the MR too easily, instead of her doing the necessary work, first.

When or if a LBH lets his WW back into the MR too easily, it is comparable to dismissing someone who is pregnant. She is pregnant and must go through a laboring process. (The pregnancy/labor metaphor is applicable to many things. I used it in the last thread illustrating Piecing the M back.) In the pregnancy stages, the H notices when things become uncomfortable for her, she is grouchy, complains, nothing suits her, etc. Her hormones are wacky, so she does some weird and out of character stuff. The H usually does whatever he can to make things easier for her. In time, she starts to experience contractions, and things go into high gear. She may, or may not, turn to a professional for help. The labor can be long and agonizing, and most H's wish there was just something he could do to take her pain away. His role during that time should be to show her he is emotionally strong, stable, and confident. She doesn't need to see him crying or begging her for anything. He doesn't show her how afraid he really feels. He doesn't start acting like a crazy person and screaming along with her, or reacting to her contractions. He doesn't even get upset when she screams, "This is all your fault. I will never let you touch me again".

This may not have been the greatest anology off the top of my head, but I hope some of you will see that the main message here is to let her go through the labor process. The H is making a bad mistake to let her back into the MR without her doing some work on herself. Why would a man want a woman to be with him and have those terrible feelings toward him? There are no short-cuts and those unresolved feelings will surface!

[mahhhty]

Happy Friday People. As a part of GAL, I am in control but I am [censored]-face. I went out with a best buddy tonight. We watched March Madness and drank too much. Honestly, it felt good.

He's very reserved and was a good friend to the X, as such he has never opened up. Being a little tipsy gave us both latitude to discuss things. I thought it was productive for our relationship, but didn't give me any other intel about my old relationship with her.

Regardless, we had fun. I could talk rationally (I think) about her, without emotional compromises.

[mahhhty]

Oh. I forget. The real reason for the post was that today was the other in every other Friday, and I saw her. She came to pick the kiddos.

Exchange was pleasant, cordial, nice, upbeat, she looked good, I tried to look my best, etc. Then tonight when I called to talk to the kids, I ended up talking to her more, which was a first. It seemed that she wasn't passive, but forward in talking with me.

However, as can be expected this is all under a microscope because of our lack of daily communication.

Anyway, I've had these lyrics suck in my head...

From My Music...
Well, I met an old man
Dying on a train.
No more destination,
No more pain.
Well he said
"One thing, before I graduate
Never let your fear decide your fate."

From My Daughter's Music...
Don't matter where you come from
Don't even matter what you are
A dog, a pig, a cow, a goat
Had 'em all in here
(we had 'em all in here)

And they all knew what they wanted
What they wanted me to do
I told 'em what they needed
Just like I be telling you

You got to dig a little deeper
Find out who you are
You got to dig a little deeper
It really ain't that far

Both EQUALLY important!

[mahhhty]

Lastly. Really I am done after this.

I RE-read Part 2 of Sandi's LBH today. Again... The piece about Resentment, Disrespect, & Rebellion. Is spot on for my situation. I can point to MULTIPLE instances of each. Sandi - write a book. I would buy it!

[mahhhty]

Okay. I lied. I'm not done. I do not understand why I have 70 replies with 1994 views? Can someone explain this? Or is it me? Am I writing the 70 replies and then checking 1924 times... its possible I guess.

It would seem that many people look at my thread but no one responds. If you are reading this, feel free to comment. Please set me straight, or just let me know you exist.

[gogofo]

Mahhhty, I follow along but don't have much advice for you. It seems we are in very similar circumstances, about the same age, same timeline, both D'd (yours on my XW b-day).

I don't know about you but I suspect you are having trouble with closure or even understanding what happened in the M. It also seems that you are understanding more since Sandi started the WW thread.

The resentment, disrespect and rebellion were going on with my W too. I remember at one point her telling me out of the blue that she was smoking and I was just going to have to deal with it. I knew she was. When we first started to date she would smoke when she would drive and I hated it. She quit but I guess since we had separated she decided she was in control and started smoking again. It also seemed like every time we got a little closer together she would get nervous and act out or bring up something like the smoking. The funny thing was that around October she quit on her own because she got sick of it, she even had a vaporizer and quit using it to. In my eyes it just seemed childish.

So you are not alone, I too am trying to right my ship and sail into smoother waters. I have been following Sandi's advice on the WW thread and interacting with my XW as minimally as possible.

Hang tough, we will all make it through this.

[lost18]

You know I'm with you on this M! I try to offer as much support to you as I can, I just feel lost and sometimes feel my "advice" isn't that great!

Keep going with your GAL!

[mahhhty]

Gogo - You are definitely right. From what I can tell our stories are similar. I will check in on your situation soon, and come up to speed. Sandi's LBH thread has been really helpful, and is a good way to keep things in perspective. I'm looking for those smooth waters as well.

Lost - THANK YOU! I do know you are with me! I love your advice, don't second guess that its not valuable, another opinion/understanding is always valuable!

[rd500]

Hi. I read all the posts but don't really have any sage advice All we can do is to try to detach. For me it's very hard so I know what' it can be like for others. The one thing I have learnt it to STFU , I do mess up sometimes but mostly I do ok. It also helps to accept that the M is over. Maybe not forever but for now. Act as if this is the way and with time the detachment will happen. You have to let go of what W is doing or what you expect her to do. Just worry about being the best you that you can be.

Take care. Rd

[lost18]

Hey Mahhhty, everything going ok? Hope you are out GALing!

[mahhhty]

Lost - as always thanks for checking up on me. RD & Gogo, thanks for looking in and sharing.

This past week I was really wrapped up with work and the side job. We made some progress and I'm really trying to make the most of the opportunities. It is really consuming work and helps forget about life as it was. I believe I have come to terms with many things, a ton about myself through the journey and learning. All and all I have felt pretty good and been in a good state of mind.

At the end of the week my Aunt died. It was troubling and had been for sometime for her. The wake was yesterday and the funeral today. As far as I know my X knows nothing about it.

Yesterday, she called around 7 PM to say goodnight to the kids. I missed the call and texted her back, around 745 when I was leaving the wake. I said "Sorry about the phone call. I was at a wake." I received no response from her.

Tonight she called at 643 PM, while we were eating after the reception (my sister's family (of 5), plus me and my 2 munchkins and my parents, basically 5 under the age of 5). It was busy. I didn't hear the call. I saw it at 650 or so, gathered the kids in a quiet room (my nephew also wanted to talk to "his Aunt) so we went to a back room and called back at 709. 10 seconds into the conversation, I receive a text from her: "I would like to say goodnight to the kids. This is not okay."

We proceeded to have a conversation to the best of our ability, as any 1 person can do with a 5, 4 and 2 yr old. As the conversation progressed, I could tell she was crying. We hung up.

Then I went to write many things in a text to her. But basically edited everything out and only sent "I received this text after we had been talking to you." And she did not respond. There were many things I wanted to write.

The "this is not okay" statement bothered me greatly, and with me on the phone she choose not to mention anything. And the fact she was crying also concerns me.

Just as I know nothing about her life, she knows nothing about mine. And yet she always air's on the side of blame and acquisitions. Giving me no flexibility, communication, compassion or understanding. But I do believe she expects it from me, when it suits her. I am not attempting on any level to keep the kids from her, or from preventing them to talk to her. Last night was the only night we have missed a conversation with her, and it was for a wake. As identified by herself, she is passive aggressive. And the more I think about that in this situation, the more it fits and contributes to many issues. Obviously for all these reason's she on some level does not trust me, would rather continue to be a victim and therefore, have resentment and blame towards me.

As for the crying. I have no idea, why? Perhaps she didn't want to talk to Dalton. Perhaps, she was that upset with me

I would like to text her back, but I honestly have no idea what to write. Thoughts?

[lost18]

Why is it so easy to read about another situation and know what to do but so difficult when it's your own. (talking about me not you!)

Do not text her again. As far as how she thinks, feels or acts, you can not control her. She doesn't trust you? There is nothing that YOU can do to change that. What you can do is act the way you know is right and be trustworthy. As much as it [censored] she is unable to treat you like you want her to right now, YOU however, can treat her the way you want to be treated and be the better person. In the end, regardless of the outcome, you have to live with yourself and you will now you did the best you could do.

As for the crying...who knows, maybe she stubbed her toe!

[mahhhty]

Why is it so easy to read about another situation and know what to do but so difficult when it's your own.

I hear you Lost. I feel the same way. It is much more difficult when it comes ourselves.

[mahhhty]

For some reason, I have dived into the issues I had with the X on the sex front. I believe that this was part of both of our love languages. Which we really lost sight of especially after the 2nd child.

This basically summed up a lot of it.

"The person with higher desire usually approaches his spouse with openheartedness and vulnerability. Saying things like "I miss you" and "I want to have sex with you." But when those pleas for connection are met with unresponsiveness, as they often are. Then that vulnerability quickly turns to anger and contempt. Anger is not an aphrodeciact. Anger leads to sexual withdrawal. Sexual withdrawal leads to heightened anger. Heightened anger leads to sexual anorexia. And on and on. Then both people wait for the other person to change. And that is how relationships go down the drain. So what are they supposed to do. Here is what they are supposed to do. He needs to get a grip on his anger, regardless of if he feels short changed or not. Apparently, he needs to spend time with her, talk with her, and be present in her life. He needs to recognize that it is those things that will turn her on. And what does she need to do. Adopt the Nike philosophy and just do it..." - MWD, MWD TedX Talk

Then both people wait for the other person to change. This piece really spoke to me because this was also stated in the Marriage Map material that I read. In regards to the 7 year itch period. The period within a marriage in which a lot of finger pointing occurs. Of all the divorce's that occur, 50% are during this period. Unfortunately, my family is part of this statistic.

He needs to get a grip on his anger, regardless of if he feels short changed or not. I am getting a grip on my anger, taking the initiative to understand what I need to be happy, how I can be happier, and how I can live the life I want. I am learning to STFU, Detach, and GAL for me and my kids.

She has withdrawn from most social media, and therefore I know less than nothing, but the other day she retweeted a picture which stated, "Guys, close your eyes. Imagine you have a daughter. Imagine she is dating a guy just like you. Did you smile? No? Then change."

This was very upsetting to me for obvious reasons. Disrespect, Resentment, Rebellion at its finest. I have been thinking about this a lot lately. I believe she may be stubborn, passive aggressive, and be feeling like a victim, enough to not learn from this and therefore never meet the piecing criteria to move forward together. I don't understand her actions, her feelings or her life in anyway, and have very little exposure. I believe her original premises to mean that she believes getting rid of me will make her happy, regardless of what is in her path to do so. After all she only sees the kids 50% of the time. She made large sacrifices to not address our problems, in hopes of being single and happy, without the foresight that new problems would be created. Unfortunately, according to MWD MWD, Does divorce make you happy? Obviously, I am mind reading, but this feeling/thought/idea is helping me detach further. Realizing, that I need to move on for me. I know less than zero about what she is doing.

That is my journal entry for today.

I know I NEED to have a coparenting meeting with her to discuss:
- The gift/happy time syndrome with the kids (the idea that we feel obligated to buy the kids things so they want to keep seeing us, and perhaps even prefer one parent over the other). This is obviously not a good behavior. We can not give the kids everything they want all the time. It is not healthy.
- Potty Training our S
- Soccer for our D
- How to react when the kids, say they "miss Mommy" or "miss Daddy" what the expectations are?
- Promote their relationship with the other parent

Perhaps after Easter I will address this with her.

Journal Entry done. [drops mic exits stage left]

[Mozza]

Mahhhty - Your post is heartbreaking. I welled up.

The retweet was very hurtful, I'm sure. You must wonder what kind of an awful man you were. My WW keeps blogging and talking about women empowerment and girl power since she left me. It stays on my mind for hours and days (I stopped following her though). She left saying that she would be a model (of strength?) for our two daughters. It makes me feel like cr@p.

It's good that you don't know what she's doing. In my case, the slightest contact or bit of information brings me down.

What you need is to focus on yourself. It's not news, but my approach to it has recently changed: instead of just being busy, I try to find things that I really enjoy. You know, like when it's your birthday and you wear your favorite clothes and eat your favorite food. But every day. This week-end, I wore a tie with jeans because I love it, but never dare to do it. I felt great.

Finding what I love is a process, made harder by habits, and sometimes I remember stuff that I love that I had set aside. I feel like now is a time of permissions, of doing things that intrigued me, that amuse me, that scare me even. Hopefully you can find your way there.

[MrBond]

"This was very upsetting to me for obvious reasons. Disrespect, Resentment, Rebellion at its finest."

Doesn't seem "obvious" to me. You're still trying to mindread her. Not everything she's going to post or write about has to revolve around you.

Let it go. You're only getting yourself mad for no reason.

[claire7]

I had never seen those YouTube clips of MWD. (I've seen her TedXtalk, but not those short clips). Man, I wish I could smack my H over the head with those. I feel sad that I didn't find DB earlier. But at least I'll bring new R skills into my next R. That's a good thing. Thanks for sharing that clip.

[mahhhty]

Mozza - Thanks for the support! And the tie idea! I used to wear them a lot more before I worked from home. My GAL is decent, but that would help kick it up. I have some other ideas I need to move out on soon as well.

Mr. Bond - First. I love your no nonsense approach. Second. You are right. It is time my mind reading and pity party ended.

Claire - Glad you liked those. There are more out there. Under YouTube pages for MWD and twoofusorg.

[mahhhty]

Starsky posted this in the Re: Guide for LBH who has a Wayward Wife

This serves as inspiration and a reminder to read more Greek & Coach.

What Greek says Coach did to win her back:

I will tell you what Coach did to win me back - after I left our home and filed for D. He stopped doing all the other things that got me to the point of walking out of the door. He stopped trying to arrange my reactions. He stopped trying to control what I would think or do. He stopped telling me how I should feel. He stopped telling me what would happen if... He dropped the rope and said WITH HIS ACTIONS: "Greek, I can see that you are hell bent on leaving for reasons that you have made abundantly clear to me. Some of those reasons have merit and I will deal with them for my own sake. But I can't keep you here and I won't try. The action I will take is to work on areas in my life that have contributed to the difficulties in our R and other R in my life; I will begin to take care of myself in a way I have neglected for some time now (GAL); I will handle protect myself against the legal action you took against our M; I will conduct myself with strength and honor." This was and is totally attractive! It's strong. It's confident. It's respectful - both of me and of Coach.

It's not about 'doing nothing.' It's about doing what works - putting the ACTION in the right place.

Greek

[MrBond]

They were a great couple. Unfortunately Coach passed away about a year ago. But their posts live on.

[lnlyshp]

mahhhty,

I am finally caught up on your sitch. The retweet seems like it would be incredibly painful to see - I've seen my STBX post similar things. Like MrBond said though, it may be that the post was not about you. You know her best, of course. I just think that the LBS has a natural tendency to take everything the WAS does personally. I know that I do. I may have given you this advice already - but I would recommend unfriending/blocking her on social media. I personally made the decision to do so when I realized that nothing she ever posted made me feel better. I was apathetic at best and incredibly hurt at worst. Just a suggestion - may not be practical in your sitch.

Best of luck my friend,
- ship

[mahhhty]

Need some advice. W came to pick up the kids today (I'll pick them up tomorrow). She told me that she'll be with her family all day and asked if I would want her to drop the kids off or if I would like any to pick them up at the grandparents and then she add a "so you can see everyone and see what the grandparents got the kids."

I responded with a whatever is easiest comment. I am planning on asking via text tonight or tomorrow AM for her to drop them off. Is that the right course of action or should I go to a family event? The last time I went she tried to sneak out bc she was crying (at Xmas, see first thread).

[mahhhty]

Happy Easter everyone! I hope you all had a wonderful weekend!

Yesterday's dilemma resolved itself fairly easily. Just proved I need to detach more.

[lost18]

What did you decide to do?

My advice would have been to do what YOU feel is best for you and don't over analyze anything.

[gan]

mahhhty - I'm not very familiar with your sitch but I noticed your comments re sex. I agree that the dynamic that MWD describes is an accurate reflection of what goes on between a high(er)- and low(er)-desire spouse. The Nike slogan bit - I don't find it a very useful recommendation though (as the lower-desire spouse). It certainly didn't help me crack through the issues though I know a lot of therapists say this is the solution.

If you are looking for some more books to read, you might want to check out the stuff by David Schnarch. His books really awakened me to the dynamics in play in relationships (there is a high and low-desire person on every issue in a relationship...not just sex; the low-desire person controls the outcome (just like we are seeing with our WAS now); it takes an act of integrity for the low-desire person to overcome their issues and move the issue forward). In this way, sex is just a manifestation of a larger dynamic. We all have to work through our issues...

[mahhhty]

Good Advice Lost. I know sometime it is hard to know how I really feel in the moment, and an issue I have is that my mouth speaks before I truly think. In bad situations I am learning to control it, but in easy situations I still speak first.

An example of this was the Saturday before Easter. The convo went something like this....

Her: Would you like me to drop of the kids or do you want to come to my parents to see all the kids, and to see what everyone got for easter.
Me: I guess, whatever is easiest.

I have to get better at that.

Then I thought about it, and I believed it was a bad idea, so I texted her asking to drop the kids off. She didn't respond. The lack of response frustrated me, but I let it go, as I was going kayaking anyway. On the way home from kayaking and about an 1 hour before pick up. I wrote another text stating I would pick them up. I did this b/c I had absolutely no idea where she stood on the matter and b/c I was running late. Unfortunately, it was wishy washy but in the end all was fine.

[mahhhty]

If you are looking for some more books to read, you might want to check out the stuff by David Schnarch. His books really awakened me to the dynamics in play in relationships (there is a high and low-desire person on every issue in a relationship...not just sex; the low-desire person controls the outcome (just like we are seeing with our WAS now); it takes an act of integrity for the low-desire person to overcome their issues and move the issue forward). In this way, sex is just a manifestation of a larger dynamic. We all have to work through our issues...

gan - apparently you know me fairly well. I love to read and to learn. I will check these out. Your take on the "lower desire spouse" issue as more of an overall philosophy rather than just about sex, is an idea I have not seen yet. Although I do believe it makes a lot of sense. I believe this idea applies to my overall situation as well. I can recall multiple instances where I brought up items/topics that I wanted to discuss and I received no feedback, no resolution, no discussion of any sort back. The lack of collaboration and lack of our love languages definitely would inspire me to discuss the topic again with more vigor and passion, however, the results were the same.

Thank you for reaching out. I'll check out Mr. Schnarch.

[Bob723]

Hello mahhhty,

I wanted to check in with you and see how you are. I might check out some of David Schnarch's books,too. It sounds like gan really thinks his books are good!

Take care my friend. Please let us know if you find his books helpful for your situtation.

Bob

P.S. I am on this forum now.

[mahhhty]

I'm going to end this thread with this....

All the adversity I've had in my life, all my troubles and obstacles, have strengthened me... You may not realize it when it happens, but a kick in the teeth may be the best thing in the world for you.
Walt Disney

[Mozza]

Always nice to hear from you, mahhhty.

Her: Would you like me to drop of the kids or do you want to come to my parents to see all the kids, and to see what everyone got for easter.
Me: I guess, whatever is easiest.

I'm sure you'd benefit from being and appearing more decisive and in control. "Whatever" is not the word of a decisive man. You have your life, your priorities, your preferences. The wishy washy stuff is not just confusing, it's unattractive to a woman. So when you have a choice, you make a clear decision and communicate it. This is not just about how to answer your ex by the way, it's about your real thought process. The reason why you say "whatever" is probably that you give very low priority to your own needs, versus that of others. I'm sure deep down you have a preference. Perhaps it's that she drops them home because it gives you extra time for cleaning. Perhaps it's meeting the family, as she offered. But I bet you silence these personal preferences before they even reach your consciousness because you don't think them worthy. Well, they are from now on. Look for them inside of you and express them without shame. It will make you and everyone around you happier.

[lost18]

This is why I love this board. That is a great pov Mozza. New goal for you mahhhty is to be decisive in circumstances that require it!

[mahhhty]

Mozza & Lost - You are right! This is my issue.... "The reason why you say "whatever" is probably that you give very low priority to your own needs, versus that of others."

Thank you both!

[Cadet]

Why is it so easy to read about another situation and know what to do but so difficult when it's your own.

I hear you Lost. I feel the same way. It is much more difficult when it comes ourselves.

Because you are DETACHED from other peoples sichs!

Please start a new thread.
Thanks

New thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2556823#Post2556823