So I am divorced.

[mahhhty]

Here's my journal update...

Lunch/Coffee time... I still have made no moves on this front. I realize it is needed there is many co-parenting issues we could talk about.

Texts... Have slowed down for the moment. However we did have a correspondence last night. She texted me, I kept it going and kept it light, then shut it down with a "have a good Monday. Good night."

GAL... My GAL is good. I'm going out, going skiing, going kayaking. Working out has suffered due to kayaking and skiing but it is still 2 to 3 times a week. At 32 my body is probably in the best shape it's ever been and my mind is sharp but cluttered with items related to her. I'm also making an effort to see my sisters kids more. I am their fun uncle. And more importantly, I'm a better dad. Capable of providing nurture, fun, imagination and discipline for my munchkins. On the negative side I have binge watched some TV shows, don't sleep all that well, and really struggle in the mornings I don't have the kids.

The Clutter... The clutter for me is the things that are always on my mind. I enjoy sports like kayaking and skiing because they get me outside of my mind and into the moment. However my mind focuses on questions. Why are there so many things left unsaid? Why did she believe her premises? Why did I not see any of this sooner? Why did she believe it was not possible to reconcile? And millions more. My engineer brain also tries to rationalize/analyze all previous interactions and current interactions.

This clutter is how I know I am not truly detached. I have no relationship with her to speak of, we rarely talk, but I know that if we were to talk more she wouldn't be talking to someone who was truly detached. Perhaps this is why I haven't moved forward with the lunch idea.

[mahhhty]

I forgot... To Sandi - I've followed your posts around the board. Your thread on LBHs and so many more are very informative. Thank you for taking the time routinely to help others. I have learned many many things from your posts!

[Vanilla]

Originally posted on Susanas thread today

At any rate, I've been trying to work on gratitude and WOA, but so far when I thank him for something he does around the house (say, doing the laundry or taking out the trash) he tends to say "don't thank me for that, it's nothing" and when I compliment him on something he'll say "no I'm not that good, that's not true." I don't know if I'm totally missing the mark here frown Or if his self esteem is really so low he can't take a compliment right now. And I don't know if that means I ought to continue with the compliments in spite of his words to the contrary.

You know what... I do the same thing. When X would thank me for something, I would say "Don't worry about it" or "You don't have to thank me." And I meant it. She shouldn't have to thank me for doing things I should be doing. HOWEVER, I liked that she noticed I was doing things, and honestly, I really did want her to thank me.

I have a slightly different spin on it... try to do something he knows you don't like, and if (and I do mean IF) he thanks you say, "Oh well I thought because you did X, a good thank you would be for me to do Y."

Just an idea!

As human beings a tiny frisson of joy every time?

What a joy to be appreciated.

Just saying..........

V

[lost18]

"GAL... My GAL is good. I'm going out, going skiing, going kayaking. Working out has suffered due to kayaking and skiing but it is still 2 to 3 times a week. At 32 my body is probably in the best shape it's ever been and my mind is sharp but cluttered with items related to her. I'm also making an effort to see my sisters kids more. I am their fun uncle. And more importantly, I'm a better dad. Capable of providing nurture, fun, imagination and discipline for my munchkins."

Love this, great job!

"The Clutter... The clutter for me is the things that are always on my mind. I enjoy sports like kayaking and skiing because they get me outside of my mind and into the moment. However my mind focuses on questions. Why are there so many things left unsaid? Why did she believe her premises? Why did I not see any of this sooner? Why did she believe it was not possible to reconcile? And millions more. My engineer brain also tries to rationalize/analyze all previous interactions and current interactions."

I'm sure we all do this...I know I do. 25 has talked about this quite a bit. I think you just need to make a conscious effort to limit the "why" thoughts. These are questions that may never get answered. I was listening to a podcast that addressed this. I wish I could remember exactly what it said but I'll try to summarize as best I can remember. Basically being stuck in the "why" questions leads to blame which leads to resentment (anger and other negative feelings) which isn't a good place to be. The best way to deal with these questions is to understand you have them and how limiting they can be but don't get stuck there. Instead, change the questions to "what can I do differently moving forward?"

Detaching is not easy that is for sure and if you're not comfortable doing lunch or coffee than don't force yourself into it. You can discuss co-parenting issues without doing that.

[mahhhty]

As human beings a tiny frisson of joy every time?

What a joy to be appreciated.
V

You are absolutely right Vanilla!

[mahhhty]

Basically being stuck in the "why" questions leads to blame which leads to resentment (anger and other negative feelings) which isn't a good place to be. The best way to deal with these questions is to understand you have them and how limiting they can be but don't get stuck there. Instead, change the questions to "what can I do differently moving forward?"

Lost - I think you are absolutely right. It makes so much sense to me, but I never thought about it that way. Why questions (Why did she do this or that, why did I do this or that?) leads to blame then to resentment/anger/disappointment. Perhaps this is the funk I have been in. Its amazing how you read something for the first time and just clicks.

After reading this and reading Sandi's writeup about LBH, I think in the beginning I signed up to be the bad guy. I let her unload, and all I did was validate, cower and accept the blame. I was not myself, and honestly had not been for a long time. I think the loss of my wife and our sex life after the kids came, had a significant impact on me. Regardless, this all provided me the motivation for knowledge, introspection and change (well that and the fact I was now a LBH).

Getting back to the point, I think at the end of the day I ask the why questions to prove to myself that I am not a terrible person, and didn't solely push my wife away. I understand the way MWD identifies a WAW, is that they believe they have tried everything and that the relationship can't be fixed. I would hope on some level my X believes that she did try everything. From my perspective, I don't believe that everything was tried, b/c I felt so in the dark. I believe a combination of our lack of sex, or quality time of any nature, compounded with my withdrawal, both of us placing careers over each other, our lack of communication, her passive aggressiveness and both of us being stubborn, as well as, us being in the marriage map stage of pointing fingers, is to blame for our demise, along with a million other things.

This is nothing new for my situation. However, what is new is my response. I am going to do my best to accept, that these things will not be answered and that my understanding is sufficient. I will continue to try to learn and understand what I can do differently to promote healthy behavior and relationships. But I will no longer complain about the "why's," therefore no longer playing the blame game, therefore no longer storing resentment for a rainy day.

Thank you Lost for the support!

[mahhhty]

Just wrapped up an IC appointment. At the end he asked what I wanted to do for the future, then implied the worst is over, a plateau is imminent, and that I am more than capable to handle the plateau.

All and all a good meeting. Moral of the story... Do things that make me happy. Create flow moments with the kids, kayaking, skiing, and business ventures. Meet her with compassion, grace and strength. Always keep the kids as the primary interest. And realize that the unanswered questions, don't need answering to move forward.

With that being said, we pushed out the appointments to more than a month between sessions. I'm definitely on my way out of this chapter and ready for a new one.

[mahhhty]

It's only appropriate that I talk to the IC about piecing today and come home to this gem from Sandi.

From...
Re: For the Newcomer LBH who has a wayward wife Part 2 http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...nt=2&page=2

Yes, I would LOVE to see Sandi expound upon a "Letting Them Back Too Easy?" theme, from her unique FWW perspective.

We have to consider the makeup of the wayward mindset. In my simple breakdown, I would say there are 3 main veins that run to the wayward heart/mind. Those 3 are Resentment, Disrespect, and Rebellion. If you have ever experienced dealing with these feelings yourself, or dealt with another person who had them......you know it takes a lot of work to resolve those feelings completely.

Even if she is willing and trying to come to terms with it, the emotion and flashbacks that caused the resentment, still want to creep around inside her head. And there are trigger points that can set it into a beinge effect. If she has allowed herself to be controlled by her emotions (which, of course, waywards do) then it will prove to be very challenging for her and the H, just in different ways. However, I am a firm believer that it can be accomplished, if the WW wants to let go of it badly enough. Sadly, many don't want to turn lose of anger or whatever seems to control them at the moment, as crazy as that sounds. It requires a lot of self discipline, and which we know WW's have very little. Intellectually, they know they should do everything in their power to get rid of it. But what will it take to give them that "want to" get rid of it? That is the question that leads back to the H not being able to force her what to feel. However, he can certainly influence!

I wish I knew how to explain the dynamics in the female - male relationship. Then perhaps I could better explain why her respect for the H is vitally important, and how that respect, or disrespect, affects their entire MR. It definately affects her feelings for him (and I will get back to this in a second). If a man allows his WW back into the MR........knowing he does not have her respect, he will never be appreciated, much less admired. Unless she simply fakes it, she can't admire him. Those dynamics would also better explain why she has the rebellious attitude with him, as though she were a teenager and he was the parent. It is a very complex relationship and it leaves the H completely baffled with why she would say and do some of the things she does in her wayward state.

LBH's should not let her back too easily, with no questions, no discussions or decisions. He had better have a plan and have an agreement from her to cooperate 100% with his plan before he evers says they can reconcile......then hold her to it. Rug sweeping is no solution, period. It makes matters worse, so that route needs to be taken off the table immediately. Neither can the H "nice" her out of her waywardness. This is where I think some of the LBW's here on the board may have a problem with some of the tough love advice. B/c they would love it if their bad H was nice, especially if he had been abusive. However, these ladies are not wayward, and that's the main difference. I am telling you it does not work with a wayward woman. It stems from those three areas......resentment, disrespect, and rebellion.

There are some things that time eventually heals, but I personally do not believe time, alone, can heal matters of this nature. Time, coupled with good counseling can help with
a big part. However, before a woman can begin to resolve these problems, she has to be willing to work at leaning how to let go of the past and stop blaming her H for everything. in her frame of mind, I believe she has to have some type of guidance from an unbiased source........and preferably, professional. I don't mean attending MC with her H, either. She first needs help just for herself. If she has a spiritual leader, I would recommend spiritual counseling, b/c these are matters of the heart. Once she begins to deal honestly with her feelings......and is seeking to learn new skills, the couple stands such a better chance at reconciling. And then the couple should attend a good MC or a highly recommended M program, support groups or something that will help guide them through Piecing. Just leaving a couple to figure it out on their own is not the healthiest of choices. The main ingredient there is willingness from both sides.

I believe a woman cannot hold on to these three issues toward her H and/or the M, and have a warm, loving, sexual desire for him. These strong, negative feelings will surface almost daily in some sort of fashion. Some women may be HD enough they will want the act of sex, but they use the man as if he were some type of object in order for her to receive pleasure. Some women may play along and just tolerate the sex, but she doesn't feel the attraction and desire for him. And that's not to mention those who use sex as a way to manipulate the H. She may go through the act of ML, but that's all it will be. I can't give any scientific proof, IJMHO, that it is impossible for a woman to have that kind of inner contempt for her H.......and be able to feel attraction/desire for him. I believe that is the true source for a lot of SSM.

She has to find appropriate means to help her resolve this mindset in order to have peace within herself. By that, I mean her meeting with her new friends at the bar is not the guidance she should receive to resolve her bad feelings. Even if she were to move on to another relationship, this mindset toward her H, consequently affects her ability to have complete contentment in her life, IMO. She may try to ignore it, deny it, and act otherwise......but it still lives in her heart and it is a dark, cold leach that [censored] away at the core of her spirit. So, just imagine how it would be for the LBH to allow his WW to return to the MR too easily, instead of her doing the necessary work, first.

When or if a LBH lets his WW back into the MR too easily, it is comparable to dismissing someone who is pregnant. She is pregnant and must go through a laboring process. (The pregnancy/labor metaphor is applicable to many things. I used it in the last thread illustrating Piecing the M back.) In the pregnancy stages, the H notices when things become uncomfortable for her, she is grouchy, complains, nothing suits her, etc. Her hormones are wacky, so she does some weird and out of character stuff. The H usually does whatever he can to make things easier for her. In time, she starts to experience contractions, and things go into high gear. She may, or may not, turn to a professional for help. The labor can be long and agonizing, and most H's wish there was just something he could do to take her pain away. His role during that time should be to show her he is emotionally strong, stable, and confident. She doesn't need to see him crying or begging her for anything. He doesn't show her how afraid he really feels. He doesn't start acting like a crazy person and screaming along with her, or reacting to her contractions. He doesn't even get upset when she screams, "This is all your fault. I will never let you touch me again".

This may not have been the greatest anology off the top of my head, but I hope some of you will see that the main message here is to let her go through the labor process. The H is making a bad mistake to let her back into the MR without her doing some work on herself. Why would a man want a woman to be with him and have those terrible feelings toward him? There are no short-cuts and those unresolved feelings will surface!

[mahhhty]

Happy Friday People. As a part of GAL, I am in control but I am [censored]-face. I went out with a best buddy tonight. We watched March Madness and drank too much. Honestly, it felt good.

He's very reserved and was a good friend to the X, as such he has never opened up. Being a little tipsy gave us both latitude to discuss things. I thought it was productive for our relationship, but didn't give me any other intel about my old relationship with her.

Regardless, we had fun. I could talk rationally (I think) about her, without emotional compromises.

[mahhhty]

Oh. I forget. The real reason for the post was that today was the other in every other Friday, and I saw her. She came to pick the kiddos.

Exchange was pleasant, cordial, nice, upbeat, she looked good, I tried to look my best, etc. Then tonight when I called to talk to the kids, I ended up talking to her more, which was a first. It seemed that she wasn't passive, but forward in talking with me.

However, as can be expected this is all under a microscope because of our lack of daily communication.

Anyway, I've had these lyrics suck in my head...

From My Music...
Well, I met an old man
Dying on a train.
No more destination,
No more pain.
Well he said
"One thing, before I graduate
Never let your fear decide your fate."

From My Daughter's Music...
Don't matter where you come from
Don't even matter what you are
A dog, a pig, a cow, a goat
Had 'em all in here
(we had 'em all in here)

And they all knew what they wanted
What they wanted me to do
I told 'em what they needed
Just like I be telling you

You got to dig a little deeper
Find out who you are
You got to dig a little deeper
It really ain't that far

Both EQUALLY important!