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Originally Posted By: Elsa
I need to find a way to communicate my needs without making him feel inadequate.


smile smile smile smile smile smile

How he feels is ultimately up to him but the way we can interact can reinforce or assuage these feelings. So better maybe is to say

"I need to find a way to communicate my needs that at the same time tells him he I feel he is enough"

probably could phrase that better


Both mid 30s, 2 young kids
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Originally Posted By: MrBond
So why haven't the two of you moved back together?

The short answer is because neither of us is ready yet. I would probably be more willing to try it and see what happens, but I know that H is still really apprehensive about conflict and I'm not in a position to keep conflict from happening when I feel like my needs aren't being met. It seems like a recipe for disaster without making some more progress first.

Originally Posted By: MrBond
I don't see in your posts where you detailed your marital issues. Could you explain what they were?


I had some details in my very first post, but I can expand more here.

1. H says there was too much conflict between us. The conflict hurts him, but I'm impervious to it so I really didn't realize that it was a problem until it was too late.

2. H feels like I never had his back because he would ask me to do things for him (mostly legal work) and I would say no.

3. H feels like he has no power in our relationship.

4. I have felt emotionally and physically abandoned by H since we moved 300 miles for him to take a new job.

5. I wanted to have more children, and he was procrastinating without telling me why. (In retrospect, duh.) This was the primary source of the "conflict" that H says he left to get away from.

6. H has a difficult time with forgiveness and also with accepting responsibility (they seem to go hand in hand, don't they?). He is holding onto a lot of old baggage. For example, ten years ago I went on a business trip for a week and didn't call him until the 5th day. He has brought that up 3 times in the past year (and was validated by me every time), and yet when I try to bring up something he said or did a month ago for which there was no closure, he tells me it isn't fair. (I don't like double standards -- can you tell?)


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So, we've had a good-ish week, I think. Journaling a bit --

12/30: H calls me on the way home from work. We have not discussed NYE. He tells me that he has something that he wants to do but he doesn't want me to think he's withdrawing from me. He wants to go to [town where we went to college] and hang out with a friend. I tell him that I have always valued independence in our R, but it's hard to not see this as withdrawing from me under the circumstances (1st NYE apart in 13 years). He panics and thinks I'm telling him he can't go. (As though I have that power???) I tell him that I'm not saying that, I'm speaking from my heart. I tell him that I want him to go and have a good time, and I appreciated how he approached me about. He wraps with, "So I did a good thing, by calling you and talking to you about." And I tell him yes, that was the perfect way to do it. I tell him that I know he wanted me to say, "Yes, go have fun with your friend!" as soon as he asked. I explain that I could have done that, but it wouldn't have been sincere; however, now that we've talked I can honestly say that I want him to go and I hope he enjoys himself. H seems to feel as good about this conversation as I do. It took less than 10 minutes, and we both felt good about the outcome.

So then I say, "Hey, since we're not going to see each other tomorrow, how about I come over for a little *wink, wink, nudge, nudge* tonight." (There's a little bit of backstory here, but we've had to put off 2 planned, uh, get-togethers in the past couple of weeks.) H says, "Well, I'm going to be really busy packing and doing laundry tonight. How about another time?" ARE YOU KIDDING ME? I tried to stay calm but the conversation really deteriorated from there. We ended up on the phone for nearly two hours, going around in circles. Finally, we both agree to disagree and we apologize to each other. H promises that everything is ok. H comes over to pick up D7 for the night and acts like everything is not ok. I ask him, and he says, "It was until you said something!" Not buying that for a second. H leaves and then sends me a couple of anger-texts (which is a little out of character for him). I call him back and ask him if he would like to talk. He says after D7 goes to bed. H calls me back and we talk again. (This is the conversation I mentioned in my earlier post.) It actually goes well and at the end he makes a real attempt to give me what I need. I ask him what he would do if he were here, and he says, "I would give you a hug."

12/31: H comes over in the am to drop off D7. He gives me a huge bear hug and a kiss and says, "Happy New Year!" Later in the day I get a random text: "I love you and I'm sorry I hurt your feelings."

1/1: H calls me around 3pm, on his way home from [college town], to say hello. (Not many of those phone calls happening these days, so that was nice.) H says he'll be getting back late. H asks if I would like to get together on Friday or Saturday. I choose Friday.

1/2: H comes over for dinner and games with D7 and I. I make food from "back home." After D7 goes to bed, H says that he isn't feeling well and asks if we can reschedule the rest of the evening for the following night. I say that's fine (genuine PMA) and I hope he feels better.

One weird thing: H makes a point of mentioning that he hugged me (D7 asked for a "D7 sandwich" when he got there) and he wanted to make sure I noticed so I "wouldn't think he wasn't touching me." I wish he would just, you know, make it so obvious that he doesn't have to wonder whether or not its enough but okay, this is a start.

1/3: H comes over after D7 goes to bed and we have sex.

1/5: My favorite day of the month (/sarcasm) -- time for the money talk! I bring it up when he comes by to pick up D7 for the night. We both acknowledge that we are not happy with the current financial arrangement -- he thinks he gives too much, I think he has a poor attitude about it in general. H suggests that we talk about it at MC on Thursday, but I say that I already have something I want to talk about. H looks at me quizzically and asks, "What do you want to talk about?" I say, "I just want to reflect back on some things that have happened over the past few weeks."

H: Good or bad?
Me: Uh, good, I guess. But we can talk more about it on Thursday.
H: I feel like you don't want to tell me.
Me: Now is just not a good time. [And it isn't. We are in the entry way with D7 between us, putting on her shoes and packing up her things for the night.]
H: Okay, now I'm nervous.
Me: Don't worry, it's nothing bad.

(The reality is that I want to talk about how I feel like he's really reaching out and doing the things I need, but I still feel like it's lacking in sincerity. I want to talk about whether or not it's working for him, because if he's resents it every step of the way it's not a tool that's going to help bring us back together.)

Before he leaves, I tell him that we should talk about the money situation in MC too if that's what he wants, or do it another time soon. I ask if he still wants to find a solution that works for both of us and he said yes.




Last edited by Elsa; 01/07/15 02:13 AM.

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Which brings me to tonight. H sent me a text a little while ago and I'm not sure how to respond (if at all).

Last night, H agreed to deposit a check in my bank account today before 8pm. When he picked up D7 tonight, he said they needed to hurry to get to the bank. D7 was being difficult and I didn't get a chance to acknowledge it at the time, but a little while after they left I texted him and said, "I forget to say thank you for going to the bank because D7 was being such a fussbudget. So, thank you."

He wrote back: "Your welcome. Sorry you worry about it."

Huh? Worry about what? That he won't go to the bank? That he will stop giving me money? That I'm barely scraping by on what I make even with his help? I have no idea what he's referring to, and it seems like a casual way to address what's increasingly becoming a hot button issue between us.


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Hello Elsa. I'm sure he meant sorry you're, as you say, "barely scraping by on what I make" and in the best way. Just assume it if you doubt it. I'm sure he was trying to be supportive and just missed. He's not getting the education we get here. Benefit of the doubt.


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Thanks, HP. I decided that it would be better to accept it at face value if I want to encourage that kind of sympathy in the future. But I'm still a little apprehensive about his meaning, but we had a pleasant exchange this morning so I think it's okay.

But.

H forgot to bring D7's backpack, and we didn't realize until it was time to leave for school. Oops. I emailed H to make sure he hadn't put it somewhere here and I just wasn't seeing it, and he replied that back that he was terribly sorry but he was pretty sure it was in the car.

It's really not a big deal. Yesterday was a goof-off day at school because there was snow and a lot kids were absent. She had no homework to turn in, and we have plenty of spare backpacks here to use in a pinch (which is exactly what we did). However, this is EXACTLY the kind of thing that H would be upset with me about for hours pre-BD -- it was example of how I was forgetful, it was an example of how inconsiderate I was, etc. I don't even think he realizes how poorly he was treating me there for a while.

Just thinking of what the MC said a few session back: I need to be a model of grace for my H.


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IMHO, both you and your H are going to have to learn how to compromise. This includes your feelings of resentment towards each other. You say that he doesn't apologize, yet he does and when he does it's not good enough for you because you feel he either doesn't mean it or doesn't get why he's apologizing in the first place.

BOTH of you need to be a little more specific. Rather than telling him that you need an apology (which is someone no one likes to be told), give him examples. Tell him the times that you appreciated when he did something and expand on that. Then have him do the same.

The two of you are communicating are on two different levels and both can't understand why the other doesn't "get it".


M-43 W-40
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Emotion, yet peace.
Ignorance, yet knowledge.
Passion, yet serenity.
Chaos, yet harmony.
Death, yet a new life.

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Thanks, Mr. Bond. I appreciate your input.

I've been here and reading but feeling a little down on myself and my own situation so I haven't been posting much. We are still muddling through. H came to me a few weeks ago and said that he was unhappy with the money situation. Despite saying that he wanted to find the "our way," he rejected every suggestion I came up with to ameliorate the situation and didn't offer anything beyond his original ask. Since one of his complaints is that I don't listen to him and just do what I want to do regardless of his feelings, I decided to drop the rope (on this particular issue) and give him what he asked for. I felt that this would be a good way to demonstrate that I'm willing to change how I interact with him in order to make him happier in the R. I admit that I also hoped it would encourage him to come around to my point of view on another issue, but I didn't try to make it an express quid pro quo.

Of course, he is still a WAH and despite claiming that he is trying, he wants our M to work, he wants to meet my needs, etc -- I'm not seeing many changes and certainly nothing akin to what I gave him on the money issue.

We keep coming back to the same issue and I really think it's becoming my hill to die on, so to speak. We talked about it in MC last night and I'd like to get your input.

The gist of it is: I need comfort (physical and emotional) and companionship from my H. He needs space. I say those two needs are equal; we are both asking something from each other. H says that he is not asking anything from me. He thinks he is taking what is rightfully his as an individual, but I don't have the right to demand comfort and companionship from him (or anyone). (And I'll go ahead say that intellectually, I'm not sure that I disagree him. But we are not two people having an intellectual discussion; we are two people trying to save a marriage. It doesn't sit right with me that H characterizes his needs as inherent while mine are optional.)

We both have two very specific incidents in recent memory that are triggering this for us. Mine happened a couple of years ago, well before BD. I had noticed H was not affectionate, never seemed to touch me, etc and I had said something to him a few times. Each time, he said that he would work on it and I would get a few awkward arm pats for a few days but then he would stop trying. One night we were in our bedroom getting ready for bed and I brought it up again. I said, "It feels like you don't even want to touch me." And he said, "Sometimes, I don't." And I just crumbled. Literally. I fell on the floor and cried. And he just sat there like there was nothing he could have said or done, like he had no role at all to play in that event. And then later, rather than tell me, "I'm really sorry that my words hurt you so much," he used the incident to justify why he couldn't tell me the truth about how he was feeling. Because if he'd told me that he was leaving outside the presence of the MC, I might have fallen on the floor and cried and THAT would have been too much for HIM to bear.

So this comes up in MC last night. The MC is trying to get me to see H's perspective, which is that he was frozen in that moment and couldn't act because he was emotionally blocked by his own pain. And I'm saying that I get that, I really do, but that's not the marriage I want to be in. I give my H grace all the time, but I can't in this situation. I can forgive him, but he needs to accept responsibility for his role and ask for forgiveness. He can do that at any time and I will forgive him. But, this isn't something that I'm able to be gracious about.

And then I turn to H and say, "H, how would you feel if [MC] was asking you to see Your Thing from my perspective? Because we've tried to have that conversation before and you've told me that you will never be able to see it from my perspective." H agrees that is true, but then goes on to say that His Thing is different because of the aforementioned "right to not be perturbed." H then explains to the MC that His Thing is an incident that happened right before BD, when I stood over H while he was laying down and yelled at him that he was weak because he wouldn't talk to me.

The MC then says that he disagrees with H because they are the same. H says, "But I didn't hit her, I didn't abuse her by not picking her up off the floor." The MC says, "But she didn't hit you either. You could have done something worse, sure, but so could she. The reality is that you both needed something from the other person in those moments that you didn't get. You needed her to leave you alone, and she needed you to pick her up. Those are the same thing."

I have no idea whether or not H is going to change his perspective on this. I honestly don't think I can. Thoughts?

Last edited by Elsa; 01/27/15 05:15 PM.

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Wow Elsa. He is just not really willing to try at all. That could change, but if he's really not willing to even TRY to see things from your perspective, that sounds really immature and selfish. Is that the kind of person you want as your partner in life? I applaud you for trying to make it work, but don't put his needs before yours. Make sure you are taking care of yourself and planning for your future, either way things turn out.


M: 43 H: 39
D: 14
Married 15 Together 16
BD: 6/2014
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OW revealed 10/2014
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Quote:
H agrees that is true, but then goes on to say that His Thing is different because of the aforementioned "right to not be perturbed." H then explains to the MC that His Thing is an incident that happened right before BD, when I stood over H while he was laying down and yelled at him that he was weak because he wouldn't talk to me.


This sounds like my STBX. And I lived with it for a REALLY long time, and I would have continued to live with it till it became clear to me that he just doesn't care. And now? There is NOTHING he could do to get me to trust him again. Because now, and for the future, this is a deal breaker for me. A caring spouse sacrifices -- SOMETIMES. And recognizes the other person's sacrifices with appreciation. That is my new deal breaker.

I don't know what real piecing looks like so I don't have advice for you. But that is how I feel from my own perspective. It feels TO ME like he is using the MC to try to get YOU to change your deal breakers, not for the two of you to figure out how to be happily married to one another.

I don't remember what your H is so hurt by? What are you taking responsibility for, and what has he taken responsibility for?


Me42, H40
D12, S8, S7
A revealed: 7/13
Sep 4/14; Agreed to D 1/15

She believed she could, so she did.
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