susana47 - Intro and 180 questions

[susana4]

I just did more snooping (I know, I know, bad) in his bag and his coat and I found nothing...just kleenex, library cards, a pen, chocolate coins, some allergy medicine... The only thing was a magnet from a BBQ restaurant in the area of the city he said he went to for his friend's (male) bday dinner tonight, he said it was just the two of them. (Although I know he could be lying!) Don't know about his wallet, it's in the room he's asleep in, the last time I saw in there recently it was just bills, his cards and a picture of me, but there might be receipts. I don't like this snooping! I want to stop, I really don't like being like this, but I don't know how else I'll find out if he's having an A. Although maybe it doesn't matter if I know.

[Complex]

Hi Susanna,
I found my DB "soulmate", haha. I have been through a very similar situation. Short marriage. Similar sitch.
I hope I can help you a bit since I am a few months ahead of you with my knowledge but it's still very fresh and far from being over.

First of all, your biggest fight DBing will be getting over your control issues and the detaching.

I'm glad you found your way here so early in your sitch and that you put a lot of effort in already. I was delusional for wayyy to long and didn't acceptthe truth. I hope you do accept it bc it's important that you take it very serious what he is saying.

Regarding the snooping: I believe it's important to know where you are at BUT it doesn't change much. It can NOT influence you and your DB plan. The problem with snooping is you focus on the wrong things. A are always a symptom, not a cause of problems. There are good ways to snoop very well, I don't know if I'm allowed to promote them here tho and like I said, you don't want to really go there.

Main issue you and me are challenging is immaturity and the lack of ability for some people to commit. It seems that younger people in general don't know what a commitment means when they do, just to wake up a short time after to find out it wasn't for them. That does not make our case easier! Opting out of a young marriage with no children is much easier than throwing 20+ years away and make your own children suffer.

By the way. Expect the worst. Mozza told me recently "things usually get much worse before they get better". And that is 100% true. Otherwise we wouldn't be here.

[Train]

susana,

Saw the thread you started over in Infidelity. I figured I'd pop in over here.

I may be in a minority around here, but I'll be real honest: I believe in snooping when you're suspicious about an A. Why? Because it matters. If you confirm an A through snooping, however, then STOP after that because anything beyond that will only hurt you.

If there's an A and if there's any chance of ML with your H - and the tickle-fights suggest that could be an eventual possibility - then your health is at risk. Before you ML to him, you need to know if he's having an A. Your health is more important than your M.

I've read your entire thread now. My first instinct was: Yes. He's having an A. Your story reads almost exactly like mine when my H cheated on me in 2005, except my H was much more angry and mean when he left me. But if your H knows that he has to stay in the house with you due to financial restrictions for now, he has a vested interest in keeping things smooth for the time being.

You asked in Infidelity what our clues were. The first time my H cheated? There were none. We ML the morning before he announced he was leaving; I had NO clue it was even a thought in his mind before he sat down with me and told me he was leaving and had broken down our finances and who would be responsible for which bill. (I was even two months pregnant at the time, which H knew!) But like you, for months before BD, I had started investing a lot of myself into my work; I was consumed, and I hadn't spent as much time with my H as I did before we were M and right after. He felt neglected but never, ever let on.

He has now cheated on me twice - eight years apart - and I confronted him with the second one before I had even one shred of evidence that he was in another A. How did I know? Because of my past-research from the FIRST time it happened and because of my time here, reading others' posts about infidelity ... and they all read almost the very same. And because he started acting differently, literally overnight. He said one disrespectful thing to me - which is so far outside of his usual character - that I knew right then and there. I confronted him, and he was confessing before I even HAD to snoop. (I still snooped to find the depth of the A, and I don't regret it for a second, but that's just me ...)

When there's a seemingly instantaneous change in their attitude toward you and your M? And a seemingly instant need to end the M? If they tell you they're just not "in love" with you anymore even though they still love you ... or that they simply need a break to search for and find their "happiness"? Yeah, those are pretty fool-proof signs there's an A.

And though you likely won't find a line of people here telling you HOW to snoop, I can tell you that jacket-pockets and wallets will likely get you nowhere. It's in the cell phone. The text messages and call logs. In the event the phone is password-protected, the phone bill can give you some good clues; they text relentlessly, day and night. Secret texting apps on their phone. Snapchat. Maybe e-mails. But again: if you're going to snoop, do it to confirm an A for your health and well-being. Then stop.

The reason I'm harping about a possible A is because you asked in Infidelity what the clues are. I'm not saying your H is having an A. You don't know, and I don't know. But you asked, so I'm responding in kind. In the interest of not repeating myself on the boards, I'll post here what I posted to another poster, Barry, the other day about why I feel confirming an A is so important. This will make this post super-long; my apologies for that. And keep in mind this post was to a man instead of a woman - and he is struggling with GAL and all more than you seem to be. But the overall idea in the post stands, regardless.

I'm hoping the best for you, susana, and I'm really hoping your H is the exception and not the rule. Hang tight, tough and strong. No matter what, you're surrounded by the best of the best around these boards. We'll stand with you through *whatever*, okay?

If you could look through my posts from the first time I was here 9 years ago, you would have seen a vet named kml drop on my thread and be the first to say: "Your H is having an A." And you'd see my response was: "I guess that's always possible. But I am 99 percent sure he's not. That's just not the kind of person he is. He isn't a womanizer."

And I kept on about my DB efforts, gobbling-up ANY scraps my H would throw at me as I continued trying to be his warm, validating, supportive "friend."

Boy, did I feel stupid when I found out, just a couple months later, that H *was*, in fact, cheating.

I'm not telling you that your W is 100% having an A. I don't know, and you don't know. But you asked what clues you had given to make people think your W is cheating. And that's what I'm going to address here:

Actually, Barry, the good news is: Your situation - as is usually the case here - sounds JUST LIKE everyone else's story. The bad news is: In probably 99% of those stories, an OW/OM is either known about or later discovered.

What we know through lots of our own experiences - and also through reading stories here for years - is that "ILYBINILWY," 9.5 times out of 10, actually means: "I'm cheating." We call that "script" because it is what they allllllll say when they're cheating and abandoning their Ms. Even through my own pain, I've always found it almost comical how they all say the very.same.things, even a country away. It's almost a science!

Why does it matter whether she's cheating? Because, well, it does. And, IMO, in pretty big ways if you want the best chances to save your M.

In DBing without an active A (with exception of the LRT), you are encouraged to become the kind of man your W likely feels she lost during your M: Attentive, validating, warm, loving and supportive. If your W is simply bored or angry or disconnected with you, then making those changes is likely, over time, to create a positive difference in your M, even if you're S.

The problem is: If you become that person while W is having an active A, my experience has been that it doesn't only NOT help your efforts to re-attract your W ... it actually pushes her even further away.

IF your W is in an A, then she's in what we call a "fog." She's not at all in love with you. In fact, you repulse her right now. Her brain is pumping out all kinds of chemicals that make her feel literally addicted to OM. He's like a drug. And if you're being all nice and sweet and warm and kind and validating, it's likely going to turn her off. Because in her mind, you look pathetic ... mainly because she's comparing you to someone else who is a lot more assured and confident.

In more detail: If she's in an A and you choose to "Plan A" her (if you try to be her friend ... if you take-to-heart her complaints about you and try to "fix" yourself only to show her you're changing ... if you placate her and act sweet as syrup around her to "show" her your new-found "changes"), she's GOING to be even more repulsed by you. Because she's looking at YOU, scurrying around to make changes FOR her and practically begging to be her "friend" - when you're actually her HUSBAND - and then, on the other hand, she's looking at a manly, attentive, confident man who showers her with affection and attention. And, what's more, she's "in love" with him.

Now, which of those two men sounds more attractive? (Surely I don't have to tell you.)

So the SHORT answer to why an A is relevant is: Because before you would be able to get to work on busting a D, you'd need to work on busting an A.

SOME of the work is the same. But, IMO, a lot of it isn't.

This is all from my own experience (which includes busting two As, 8 years apart, and now piecing with my H):

Fighting against an A takes A LOT of backbone, willpower and determination. And NO FEAR. It takes you digging deep to find your (ahem) testicles and your strength. It takes you being willing to firmly tell your W that you will NOT live in an open M (if, in fact, you're not willing to) and then being willing to back that up with actions. (And it.is.not.easy.)

Simultaneously, you have to incorporate all those "normal" DB principles: be confident and upbeat and, yes, even neighborly, and put forward the BEST Barry you can be. You DO need to listen to W's marital complaints about you if she offers them. And you need to work hard on fixing those things in yourself and *for* yourself because you want to be the best man you can be for - God willing - your W when she comes around. Or for the next woman you meet.

And, no matter what - affair, or no - you have to be willing to let your W go and start facing a possible future without her, as bad as that hurts and as impossible as it feels right now. GAL will help you A LOT with that ... and with detaching from W's words and actions while she's wayward.

Your goals: GAL and detachment. Those are life-savers right now.

[susana4]

Hi Susanna,
I found my DB "soulmate", haha. I have been through a very similar situation. Short marriage. Similar sitch.
I hope I can help you a bit since I am a few months ahead of you with my knowledge but it's still very fresh and far from being over.

First of all, your biggest fight DBing will be getting over your control issues and the detaching.

I'm glad you found your way here so early in your sitch and that you put a lot of effort in already. I was delusional for wayyy to long and didn't acceptthe truth. I hope you do accept it bc it's important that you take it very serious what he is saying.

Regarding the snooping: I believe it's important to know where you are at BUT it doesn't change much. It can NOT influence you and your DB plan. The problem with snooping is you focus on the wrong things. A are always a symptom, not a cause of problems. There are good ways to snoop very well, I don't know if I'm allowed to promote them here tho and like I said, you don't want to really go there.

Main issue you and me are challenging is immaturity and the lack of ability for some people to commit. It seems that younger people in general don't know what a commitment means when they do, just to wake up a short time after to find out it wasn't for them. That does not make our case easier! Opting out of a young marriage with no children is much easier than throwing 20+ years away and make your own children suffer.

By the way. Expect the worst. Mozza told me recently "things usually get much worse before they get better". And that is 100% true. Otherwise we wouldn't be here.

Omg Complex, you really are my DB soulmate! haha. I'm also living abroad, away from my home country (in my H's home country). Is your visa situation ok btw? I really hope it is. I didn't move here for H though, I moved here years before (and my visa's tied to my work *but* that was meant to change soon, I was planning to leave my job and switch my visa which is another piece of the mess we're in now). I'm so glad you found my thread, Complex! I've been looking around the board for someone in a similar sitch, but most I've found have been married a lot longer/are older. I still find I have a lot to learn from them too, but I was curious if there was anyone else in a short marriage and younger in age, because I think it is really a different dynamic. Definitely seems much easier for the WAS to leave without kids, and I also feel like if we separate that is it because we will have no reason to speak (no kids, don't own a house together). Also yes, I definitely feel I'm also facing immaturity and commitment issues. I don't really understand how someone can not think it through beforehand, and just wake up one day after a short time, but that does seem what's happened... *sigh*

Yes, detaching and control is definitely the hardest for me. Was it for you? How did you handle it?

How did you find out about the OM? Like I said, I didn't feel good snooping, but I'm also having trouble not, now I've got it in my head I just want to find out.

[susana4]

susana,

Saw the thread you started over in Infidelity. I figured I'd pop in over here.

I may be in a minority around here, but I'll be real honest: I believe in snooping when you're suspicious about an A. Why? Because it matters. If you confirm an A through snooping, however, then STOP after that because anything beyond that will only hurt you.

If there's an A and if there's any chance of ML with your H - and the tickle-fights suggest that could be an eventual possibility - then your health is at risk. Before you ML to him, you need to know if he's having an A. Your health is more important than your M.

Thanks for coming over to my thread and thank you so much for your insights! You're right Train. I'm very paranoid about STDs anyway, so whatever I happens, I will be keeping this in mind for sure.

I've read your entire thread now. My first instinct was: Yes. He's having an A. Your story reads almost exactly like mine when my H cheated on me in 2005, except my H was much more angry and mean when he left me. But if your H knows that he has to stay in the house with you due to financial restrictions for now, he has a vested interest in keeping things smooth for the time being.

You asked in Infidelity what our clues were. The first time my H cheated? There were none. We ML the morning before he announced he was leaving; I had NO clue it was even a thought in his mind before he sat down with me and told me he was leaving and had broken down our finances and who would be responsible for which bill. (I was even two months pregnant at the time, which H knew!) But like you, for months before BD, I had started investing a lot of myself into my work; I was consumed, and I hadn't spent as much time with my H as I did before we were M and right after. He felt neglected but never, ever let on.

He has now cheated on me twice - eight years apart - and I confronted him with the second one before I had even one shred of evidence that he was in another A. How did I know? Because of my past-research from the FIRST time it happened and because of my time here, reading others' posts about infidelity ... and they all read almost the very same. And because he started acting differently, literally overnight. He said one disrespectful thing to me - which is so far outside of his usual character - that I knew right then and there. I confronted him, and he was confessing before I even HAD to snoop. (I still snooped to find the depth of the A, and I don't regret it for a second, but that's just me ...)

When there's a seemingly instantaneous change in their attitude toward you and your M? And a seemingly instant need to end the M? If they tell you they're just not "in love" with you anymore even though they still love you ... or that they simply need a break to search for and find their "happiness"? Yeah, those are pretty fool-proof signs there's an A.

Interesting. One of the weirdest things I've found about this whole situation is how it came seemingly out of nowhere. How could he just drop this on me, never having said he was unhappy before? How could he have been acting like everything was normal up until the second before he told me? It really did come out of nowhere, and not in the sense of what some people experience, the "oh I knew we had problems but I didn't know it was this bad." No, I really thought he was happy, so did all my friends, and weirdly so did all his friends (even the week before he dropped the bomb, I had one of his friends come up to me and tell me how lucky H was to have me, how happy he was since we've been together, etc.). And then--all the sudden, a massive change of heart seemingly overnight!

I have read a few articles on affairs but none of the signs seem to match (acting more distant, less or more interest in ML, spending more time outside the house etc.). Well, he's done those things post-bomb drop but not prior. He also didn't give me the ILYBINILWY speech. I did ask him to be honest with me, and tell me if he just wasn't in love with me anymore, and he said he's definitely still in love with me (he was quite defensive though). All he could say was he just "doesn't feel himself anymore" and "this doesn't feel right" and "it's hard to explain."

And though you likely won't find a line of people here telling you HOW to snoop, I can tell you that jacket-pockets and wallets will likely get you nowhere. It's in the cell phone. The text messages and call logs. In the event the phone is password-protected, the phone bill can give you some good clues; they text relentlessly, day and night. Secret texting apps on their phone. Snapchat. Maybe e-mails. But again: if you're going to snoop, do it to confirm an A for your health and well-being. Then stop.

Now that I have this in my head, I sort of feel compelled to snoop, but like I said, I don't have access to his phone or laptop (password protected). We get both of our phones through work (we work in the same company) so all the phone bills are sent to them. He works in IT so all his devices are password protected like a fortress.

This morning he left his phone in the bathroom accidentally and I was in there for about half an hour, but no texts or notifications came through. I did try and guess his password but didn't get through. Weirdly, he didn't act paranoid that his phone was in there, and when I came out, he didn't go in and try to grab it or anything. Although I noticed later, he was spending a lot of time texting and he came up to me to give me a hug and locked his phone screen before doing so.

The reason I'm harping about a possible A is because you asked in Infidelity what the clues are. I'm not saying your H is having an A. You don't know, and I don't know. But you asked, so I'm responding in kind. In the interest of not repeating myself on the boards, I'll post here what I posted to another poster, Barry, the other day about why I feel confirming an A is so important. This will make this post super-long; my apologies for that. And keep in mind this post was to a man instead of a woman - and he is struggling with GAL and all more than you seem to be. But the overall idea in the post stands, regardless.

I'm hoping the best for you, susana, and I'm really hoping your H is the exception and not the rule. Hang tight, tough and strong. No matter what, you're surrounded by the best of the best around these boards. We'll stand with you through *whatever*, okay?

Thank you. ((())) The support on these boards is the best thing! It's so nice to know there are people who are or have been in a similar situation and who are supportive.

I asked my best friend again and she is really convinced he's not having an A. She thinks he would have told me by now.

If you could look through my posts from the first time I was here 9 years ago, you would have seen a vet named kml drop on my thread and be the first to say: "Your H is having an A." And you'd see my response was: "I guess that's always possible. But I am 99 percent sure he's not. That's just not the kind of person he is. He isn't a womanizer."

And I kept on about my DB efforts, gobbling-up ANY scraps my H would throw at me as I continued trying to be his warm, validating, supportive "friend."

Boy, did I feel stupid when I found out, just a couple months later, that H *was*, in fact, cheating.

I'm not telling you that your W is 100% having an A. I don't know, and you don't know. But you asked what clues you had given to make people think your W is cheating. And that's what I'm going to address here:

Actually, Barry, the good news is: Your situation - as is usually the case here - sounds JUST LIKE everyone else's story. The bad news is: In probably 99% of those stories, an OW/OM is either known about or later discovered.

What we know through lots of our own experiences - and also through reading stories here for years - is that "ILYBINILWY," 9.5 times out of 10, actually means: "I'm cheating." We call that "script" because it is what they allllllll say when they're cheating and abandoning their Ms. Even through my own pain, I've always found it almost comical how they all say the very.same.things, even a country away. It's almost a science!

Why does it matter whether she's cheating? Because, well, it does. And, IMO, in pretty big ways if you want the best chances to save your M.

In DBing without an active A (with exception of the LRT), you are encouraged to become the kind of man your W likely feels she lost during your M: Attentive, validating, warm, loving and supportive. If your W is simply bored or angry or disconnected with you, then making those changes is likely, over time, to create a positive difference in your M, even if you're S.

The problem is: If you become that person while W is having an active A, my experience has been that it doesn't only NOT help your efforts to re-attract your W ... it actually pushes her even further away.

IF your W is in an A, then she's in what we call a "fog." She's not at all in love with you. In fact, you repulse her right now. Her brain is pumping out all kinds of chemicals that make her feel literally addicted to OM. He's like a drug. And if you're being all nice and sweet and warm and kind and validating, it's likely going to turn her off. Because in her mind, you look pathetic ... mainly because she's comparing you to someone else who is a lot more assured and confident.

In more detail: If she's in an A and you choose to "Plan A" her (if you try to be her friend ... if you take-to-heart her complaints about you and try to "fix" yourself only to show her you're changing ... if you placate her and act sweet as syrup around her to "show" her your new-found "changes"), she's GOING to be even more repulsed by you. Because she's looking at YOU, scurrying around to make changes FOR her and practically begging to be her "friend" - when you're actually her HUSBAND - and then, on the other hand, she's looking at a manly, attentive, confident man who showers her with affection and attention. And, what's more, she's "in love" with him.

Now, which of those two men sounds more attractive? (Surely I don't have to tell you.)

So the SHORT answer to why an A is relevant is: Because before you would be able to get to work on busting a D, you'd need to work on busting an A.

SOME of the work is the same. But, IMO, a lot of it isn't.

This is all from my own experience (which includes busting two As, 8 years apart, and now piecing with my H):

Fighting against an A takes A LOT of backbone, willpower and determination. And NO FEAR. It takes you digging deep to find your (ahem) testicles and your strength. It takes you being willing to firmly tell your W that you will NOT live in an open M (if, in fact, you're not willing to) and then being willing to back that up with actions. (And it.is.not.easy.)

Simultaneously, you have to incorporate all those "normal" DB principles: be confident and upbeat and, yes, even neighborly, and put forward the BEST Barry you can be. You DO need to listen to W's marital complaints about you if she offers them. And you need to work hard on fixing those things in yourself and *for* yourself because you want to be the best man you can be for - God willing - your W when she comes around. Or for the next woman you meet.

And, no matter what - affair, or no - you have to be willing to let your W go and start facing a possible future without her, as bad as that hurts and as impossible as it feels right now. GAL will help you A LOT with that ... and with detaching from W's words and actions while she's wayward.

Your goals: GAL and detachment. Those are life-savers right now.

Thanks for sharing your advice, train. I do sort of feel like I need to know if there's an OW because I feel like it will impact how I handle the situation. However, I don't really know how I can find out if he's having an A or not. I feel exactly the same as you did though, "oh, I'm 99% certain he's not." But then my gut might be lying to me. It's so confusing!

[Ggrass]

Mine met his soul mate, the day it all hit the floor.

How lucky is he? Some folks wait all, their life for that to happen.

Oh he was traveling to ow town for 3 months for legit reasons, I knew about and just happened to camp not 5km from her house, before he had even met her.

Fancy all that, the moon and stars aligned and she fell Into his lap.

[gan]

Hi Susana,

There's a few of us er younger LBS around who don't have kids - LisaB, Calibri, Little and myself for starters. If you do separate - and I hope you don't - then it's true, it does seem to mean less contact. On the down side, that makes it harder to show your changes. On the plus side, it's easier to detach when you don't see your WAH all that often.

I'm still floating in ambiguity on the OW front myself so can't offer any specific advice there. It's great that Train is on to you - I'm sure she'll have some great advice for you moving forward.

Stay strong.

[Complex]

Does he have an iPhone? If he doesn't encrypt his backups it's easy to get everything out of his phone through a program that can read backups or even the phone without the passcode (but it needs to be connected to the computer and backed up there once before).
You could also check his mileage on the car and compare it to to distance of the places where he said he was going.
Cheaters can be very confident about not getting caught by the way.

About detaching, to be honest with you. Only time is doing it for me. Time is healer number 1. But you have to GAL. With GAL you'll start to see 'another' life out there. And you have to open up to someone, therapists, friends, family.

I asked myself over and over again if I married the right person, bc it's so early in the marriage and there's no commitment from W anymore, and the working on things period was way too short for being married and why would someone do this to you anyway that made you a promise with the best of intentions. Your M is even shorter.
Did you do some soul searching what actually happened that he might have changed so fast? Usually changes don't come over night.

[susana4]

Gg - that sounds like a likely story! :P Oh dear...

[susana4]

Hi Susana,

There's a few of us er younger LBS around who don't have kids - LisaB, Calibri, Little and myself for starters. If you do separate - and I hope you don't - then it's true, it does seem to mean less contact. On the down side, that makes it harder to show your changes. On the plus side, it's easier to detach when you don't see your WAH all that often.

I'm still floating in ambiguity on the OW front myself so can't offer any specific advice there. It's great that Train is on to you - I'm sure she'll have some great advice for you moving forward.

Stay strong.

Thanks ganb8te, it's good to know there are younger younger LBSs with no kids, I'll have a look at their threads. That does make sense about detaching being easier. I do think if we S that is it, I'm not sure I'll hold out any hope after that.