Introduction - least creative title

[Closer2]

Sorry for not having very creative title. I'm not in the most creative of moods these days.

I am currently in what appears to be a "friendly" divorce with my wife of nearly 10 years. We have 2 children that I love more than my uncreative-self can describe. I love my wife very much (I was not good at showing it obviously).

My wife filed for divorce just before Christmas. Why is it so common for people to put such memorable stamps on the holidays?

I got the typical ILYBINILWY speech before she filed, but did know what it meant. There is an OM. I got confirmation on that NYE while at home and she was have a good time with OM. She is communicating with the OM. I'm sure the only thing that is stopping the PA is logistics.

She does not want to do any counseling or even entertain the thought of fixing our marriage. Both of us have been unhappy for a long time, but the guy in me wants to fix this. I can not even being to think about life as a part-time father.

I was not perfect in our marriage, but I never considered having an affair. I detached from our marriage and would get away from her by being on the computer, playing games, really doing anything to avoid her.

It was easy for me to detach then. Now that the bomb has been dropped, I'm having a hard time detaching. It was a massive wake up call for me. I quit avoiding her and I have started spending time with her. I actually like spending time with her now. I have become a better father during this process and spend as much time as I can with the kids and my wife. She likes the changes, but it is having no effect on our marriage.

I know these changes are a direct result her filing for divorce and her affair, but I can't imagine going back to the resentful a-hole I was before. I also know that I really need to detach from her, but I'm having difficulty doing that for a few reasons. First, we live in the same house. She is a stay at home mom and does not have a job yet. I feel dirty even thinking about kicking her out. She is great with the kids, on top of all the school stuff, etc. Second, we are getting along REALLY well. As a guy that spent the last several years hardly "doing it", I'm having a hard time saying "no". I do not want move out, but I also don't want her to leave.

I have made mistakes. I have done the begging, pleading, etc. etc. I'm stressed out because after the 60 day cooling off, this divorce will probably be finalized. My mistakes are a direct result of feeling a time crunch.

I feel like my only option is to just let her go. I'm having a hard time accepting that this process could take years. I fear that detaching will rebuild old walls between us and give her the free time to spend with the OM.

Anyway, I feel a bit better venting. I have been reading this forum for a few days and welcome any suggestions, feedback, or tips.

[Cadet]

Welcome to the board

Get out and GAL.

DETACH.

Believe none of what she says and half of what she does.

Have NO EXPECTATIONS.

Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.

You are on moderation right now on the forum.
SO post in small frequent posts until you get off of it.

Your W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.

USE it wisely.

Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon

[Ontheup]

Hey

Sorry for your situation. Very similar to mine. Cadet is spot on. You have to gal and detach. Spend time with your kids. It's tough. I'm struggling. What you have to understand is your wife checked out a long time ago. She doesn't see you as you see her. You cannot control that but you can control you. There are loads on here with same story all at different stages, some years. What you find is the sooner you detach the better it will be. The people who have managed this seem to have developed an inner calm. They no longer worry about their wife's as they realised it is futile as you can't control their actions. They work on themselves. Being a better person and parent. The end result is that you become a better person with or without your spouse. Some reconcile others don't. Thats not really the point. The whole idea is about you becoming a better person. If that's with your wife, brilliant if not you will have new found skills to make your next relationship stronger I have a long road but the shared experiences in here give me hope. Hpoirot is a good one.

Not wanting to give you false hope but most affairs fail as they are built on lies and deceit. we all know the grass is rarely greener. Try telling that to your wife though....no actually don't don't take it to mean though that your wife will come out of the fog one day and think wtf have I done. She might still not want her marriage back but on the same hand neither might you. I think if your honest to yourself you see that you weren't happy either. I was the same so why would I want that back. My ego? To protect my daughter? Going back to the same would only see the same outcome again a few years further on.

Chin up

Plenty on here who understand and give good practical honest advice.

[sandi2]

I also welcome you to the board. Your feellings will be well understood here b/c most of the population has been in your shoes. I haven't b/c I was from the other side of the fence.

So you have told us about how you feel, but not too much about the problems. Why did you detach from your W? Why did you want to avoid her?

[Closer2]

I detached years ago. I can't really pin point why. I think a lot of my frustration was due to a lack of "physical activity". I don't mean running or mountain biking.

She has always been very reserved in that area and I never felt a strong connection. However, since all this has unfolded, that has changed dramatically. I'm stupid, I know why it has changed. I'm okay with that most of the time. However I do not want to be in an open marriage and she doesn't either (I don't think).

Detaching was just easier than begging for sex. I wish I had realized then that becoming closer, talking, being interested in her was easier than detaching AND begging.

[sandi2]

I wouldn't say it's easier, but it is smarter. There is a lot of work in the alternative. It's called a good marriage.

You have to feed a M in order for it to thrive. If it suffers from malnutrition, one of the partners will eventually get desperate enough to find nourishment some another source.

[Mozza]

Cloer2,

Welcome to the boards. I'm sorry you had to find them, but given your situation, it's likely to be one of the best thing you've done.

That was the good news. I'm afraid the rest will be bad news, but it's because you need to start from a realistic standpoint and see the way out of it.

First and foremost, you're right when you say that you are only at the beginning of a long process that will take months and maybe years. The issues you describe in the M, with mutual detachment and pressure for sex, cannot be resolved within a couple of weeks. Also, the attraction to the OM is like a drug and junkies don't get off of it easily. As Cadet says, you now have the gift of time. Be patient. Really patient.

One of your first task is to look inwards at what you've done wrong. I don't see much of it in your first post. You say you begged for sex, but you blame your W for not being more interested. If she wasn't interested in sex with you, there were deeper issues. You say you were a resentful a-hole, but you don't say how. Perhaps your W gave you some clues in her ILYBINILWY speech, perhaps since then. If you were emailing each other much, look for clues there with key words such as "pain", "hurt" etc.

Consider finding an IC. I'm no therapist myself, but I do see a lot of deep issues in your initial message. Just the self-deprecating title, which is a theme that runs through your post, suggests that you may have self-esteem or "people pleasing" tendencies. The book "No More Mr. Nice Guy" is often recommended around here, though I haven't finished it myself.

Another very difficult question you have to ask yourself is whether you really want to save your M. Sure, the answer is obvious to you right now because you feel it. And you'll get the support of this community if that's what you want. But you describe yourself being an a-hole and being detached. You have to dig deep to understand why you were like this and whether this is really the W who can make you happy. This might be easier to sort out in a few months, when the initial panic wears off, but it's important. Vets have seen many people fight for months and then turn around when the WAW wants to come back. They wanted to win or they had idealized their WAW.

As for the PA with the OM, prepare yourself for the worst. It's a common pattern here that people say nothing happened, yet are crushed a few weeks or months later when they discover the truth. You say that the logistics get in the way, but people in love figure out the logistics pretty quickly, even if their respective beds are not available.

I'm not a vet, just a newbie like you, some 4-5 months ahead of you. Listen to vets like sandi2, 25yearsmlc, MrBond, Starsky309, Cadet, Wonka, LITB, Train, etc. They've succeeded at DB and are now sharing their insights. They have slightly different takes on DB, so be prepared to apply your own judgement to the conflicting advice you might get at times.

Some tips for these Boards.

- Create your signature under your profile. Look at mine for an example.
- Read the book The Divorce Remedy (DR). People will be reluctant to give you advice if you haven't done so. Plus, it's really the source of the philosophy around here.
- Don't be too cryptic, even if you're uneasy with certain topics. Sex is referred here as sex, ML (making love) or intimacy. Tens of people read you so you want to reduce the risk of misinterpretation.
- Read around to find people like you. Some are in a in-house separation like you, some have a stay-at-home W, some have a "friendly D" (like me), someone's WAW might be like yours, some LBS might be like you, etc.
- Comment on other people's posts, offering at least your support initially. Respond to people who com,ent on your thread.
- Don't become one of these people who do the opposite of DB in real life, then come to the Boards to confess, hoping it somehow cancels out. DB for real.
- Don't spend too much time on these Boards. Your sitch won't be resolved here, it will be resolved in real life. Find the balance where you get the advice you need and give back, but don't become obsessed or somehow imagine that spending all your time here means you're working on the M.

Fasten your seat belt.

[Closer2]

Mozza,

Thanks for the reply. I appreciate your response.

I have no doubt I need to find an IC. I don't feel that self esteem is a big issue for me. However, you make a good point. This situation has hurt my self esteem. Possibly more that I realized.

I think that my biggest mistake in this marriage was not communicating. I did not talk to her about anything other than basic chit chat. I don't think we ever talked about our plans for the future. We never discussed family trips, what will the kids be when they grow up, or what our future may hold. I've been trying to pin point when that break down occurred and I think it was just before our first child was born. I remember feeling that any conversation would lead to an argument. So I kept all conversations to a minimum. Since that seemed to be a good way to avoid arguments, I held steady until I got the divorce papers 8 years later.

By not communicating with her, removing myself from the marriage, I never had a true understanding of what she needed and wanted in a marriage so she could be happy. Over the past month we have been talking more than we had the past few years. I can't begin to tell you how awful I feel for my past actions. The pain I feel for not making her feel like a wife should feel, for not making her feel loved, wanted and happy hurts me greatly.

I have been working hard this past month to be more open with her and we have talked several times about issues that have brought her to this point.

She has noticed the changes I have made. I have been spending more time with the kids, focusing on projects around the house, and talking to her. She worries that they're only short term changes, which I completely understand. To me, I am really enjoying being a better father and husband.

I have been thinking about if I really want this marriage to work. Right now it's a hard question for me to answer. I dread the thought of not seeing my kids every single day of my life. I can't imagine living without my family. However, we really do not have much in common. She feels we made a mistake getting married and I am starting to think she may be correct.

I finally made it to one of the few book stores left in the world and picked up DB and DR. Reading them now.

[Closer2]

I finished DR yesterday. I moved my focus to DR while about 1/2 way through DB. DR has been very helpful and I understand much more about the potential state of mind she is/has been in.

I do have a couple of questions regarding the 180 and sandi2's rules. Due to my detaching from the marriage a few years ago, is a 180 for me taking more of an interest in her, the kids, the family?

Over the past view weeks I have been much more involved with the kids and with my W. Sometimes the involvement with my W leads to sex or just sitting in bed talking. She frequently tells me that she is proud of these changes and feels that it will help our future relationship as a divorced couple and any future relationships with a significant other.

I have stopped planning dates, I only include her in activities with the kids. She even suggested that we spend V-day together. However, just when I feel that progress is being made, she will shut down and push me away. It's frustrating for me to feel that I am having some small successes, only to have her start talking about a future apart.

Today she met with her attorney to draft the final decree.

I think it's time to do another 180 and definitely focus only on the kids and myself.

I have learned a lot from reading DR and making way through DB. I have also gained so much knowledge from these forums. I wish I had discovered these books and forum BEFORE I was married.

[Squiggy]

Closer, you are right to to that 180. Right now she is not really thinking about you at all. I've heard some of the same things from my WAW. The thing I've learned, and am still struggling to fully implement, is to focus on myself and my son. At the end of the day, he and I will be a constant. Your W may or may not come back to the M. If she doesn't, you need to be prepared to move forward with your life and be the best father you can be for your children.

[MrBond]

"I have been thinking about if I really want this marriage to work. Right now it's a hard question for me to answer. I dread the thought of not seeing my kids every single day of my life. I can't imagine living without my family. However, we really do not have much in common. "

BS, your M failed because you failed to sustain it. You were together for 14 years. People don't "grow" apart. When the two of you first dated, regardless of how little you had in common, you always found a way to include her in your life. Over time you just got lazy and stopped doing that.

Saying that you don't have that much "in common" is a cop out. It's what all WAS's tell themselves.

[Closer2]

Mr. Bond, you're right. I got lazy. I didn't focus on the marriage enough. I stopped dating her after we got married. I made that mistake years ago and did nothing. I am responsible for letting this marriage die and I feel like hell.

Reading DB and DR was very eye opening regarding the effort that needs to be put into sustaining a marriage.

[Closer2]

I wish I could edit this thread title.

I had a telephone coaching session with Chuck on V-Day. He gave me some great guidance on the 180 and GAL.

Due to my past detachment from the M, I am working on becoming the person she knew when first started dating (this is a 180). Communication has been a problem in the past, for both of us. I was a terrible listener, always trying to resolve her problems and being the typical "fixer". I have become a great listener in the past few weeks. I now listen and validate when appropriate.

She has been testing me lately. For example, I listened to her detail the falling out her mother had with her new husband. I did not attempt to give advice or any recommendations for her to relay to her mother. I only validated the concerns my W had for her mother. Telling her it must be difficult for her to see her mother hurting during this difficult time.

Her immediate comment was "I can tell you have changed and I'm happy for you. These changes are going to help you in your next relationship and after the our divorce".

Instead of responding to her how she expects the "old me" to respond (pleading, chasing, etc). I followed Chuck's advice and told her I appreciated her noticing.

I have also been showing more remorse and taking responsibility for causing our marriage to fail. I am careful to only do this if she is testing me and I do not spend anymore time on it than a simple "you know, I really blew this, I'm sorry".

Speaking with Chuck before any V-Day activities was perfect. She wanted to hangout at the house and for us to watch a movie together since we did not have the kids. It was great opportunity for me to practice what I have learned here, from Chuck and from DR and DB. We ended up having the best V-Day we have ever had (she made that comment and I agreed).

Last night was a bit of a backslide. She asked me how long it would be until my lawyer reviewed the Divorce Decree and if I knew when I would sign it. She also said that she is worried I will have a harder time dealing with her moving out next month since we have become closer over the last weeks. I did my best to validate her concerns and to not react like the old me. When she asked me how I would react if she goes visits the OM that she is still in an EA with, I backslid.

I tried my best to validate her wanting to see him due to my past detachment and lack of focus on our M. I tried to set boundaries, well really just one boundary... that I do not want her to see him while we are in the same house. That upset her. She felt that since we are going to be divorced soon and she does not love like a wife should and has never really loved me like a wife should, I can not stop her from seeing him.

My response was horrible, I tried to stop myself. I felt like I could see the words leaving my mouth, but I couldn't stop them. I told her it sucked to hear say that. That I still loved her and was in love with her and that didn't want to close any doors. She assured me that she is okay with closing doors and that her feelings towards me will never change.

I told her I was sorry to hear her say her that and that my love and feelings for her will never change either.

I woke up this morning refocused. I did not bring up the discussion from last night. After a meeting at our son's school. I took her back to our house and told her to have a great day. Then headed to the office. She call me and asked me to come home early since my parents are watching kids for a few hours after school. I told her since I was going in late, I would probably need to work a little later.

I am committed to DB. I know I made monumental mistakes throughout this M. My focus now is to repair as much of the damage as possible. I love her. I want to save our marriage.

[Mozza]

You did very well for a while there. I agree that last night wasn't so good. Some things you already know:

- Believe none of what they say. She's never loved you? Yeah, yeah...
- Make her doubt. Don't ever assure her of your undying love! It's the safety net for the A.
- Your message is that you know you'll be happy and are ready to move on.

Find Startsky309 around, he has great replies for establishing boundaries. He's big on respect, for instance. Also, have a look at the thread on boundaries.

It's quite amazing how much your WAW follows the script, after reading around these boards for months.

This will likely take a long time. Your behavior fits perfectly in her mental image that you're manipulating her for your own good. Honestly, she's not far from the truth this early in your sitch because, and that's just my opinion, but I doubt the changes would be permanent after such a short period. You tell her your changes are for you, but one day you'll have to believe it and not even think of her when you think of who you've become. Save yourself and you just might save your M.

[sandi2]

Are you and W still having sex?

[Closer2]

We did until about a week ago. She came down with a bad sinus infection and that derailed any physical activity. She also told me last night that she does not want to have sex anymore. She said she enjoys it, but the sex is confusing her. She also said she is worried it is confusing me. I think she is 100% correct. It is confusing the hell out of me.

Sandi2, I spent a lot of time this weekend reading these boards. Specifically focusing on some of your posts regarding sex and sleeping in the same bed as the ex. Those posts made me realize that it is doing nothing to help our R. She doesn't have any respect for me and being physical with her will not build any respect. She is in an EA/PA with another person, she has checked out of this M.

My focus now is to be the best father I can be to my children, to work on what I have learned from DB and DR (and DB forums), and listen and practice the advice from my DB coaching. GAL has finally sunk into my thick head.

[Closer2]

We had a pretty good night last night. We discussed getting the house ready to sell. She told me she wants to spend the weekends with her mom so I can spend more time with the kids. I told her that I could see that me spending more time with the kids was important to her. The old me would have said I spend a lot of time with the kids now. She just wants to go to her mom's house so she can call and IM the OM. I would have also argued that going to her mom's house every weekend is not going to help me get this house ready to sell. Guess I'll be getting help from the kiddos on that project.

She told me wants to stay in the house during the week only because she wants to be with the kids. I tried to use that as an opportunity to set some boundaries. I said she could stay if she could agree to not text, IM, or call OM while I was in the house (set that one a while ago and she has been good about it). I also asked her to avoid arguing or discussing our divorce around the kids until we are ready to put the house on the market and ease up on spending money like one of the real housewives.

If she doesn't respect the boundaries I will ask her to leave the house and will cut her off financially.

She did apologized for telling me this entire situation was my fault and I drove her to have an affair. That she felt horrible for starting this EA (not horrible enough to stop it) and for not talking to me instead of OM. She started to cry a bit and I felt that she was being honest with me. I tried to validate and said I could see how stressful this was for her and that I appreciated her telling me that. I hate seeing her so upset and crying.

After a bit more conversation, she wanted to watch the Bachelor (yay, more crazy ideas about fantasy love)and I went to my office to do some work. 15 minutes later she asked me to come and rub her back. The next thing I know, I was in the bed rubbing her back. I think I teleported back in there. DOH!

No sex though. I'm not going to lie and say I didn't try. She shot me down rather nicely. I know shouldn't have even been in there rubbing her back. I should have told her I need to get some work done. Cripes that is major weakness she knows how to exploit. I'm working on it.

[TenBook]

Closer2, pick up the book , 5 languages of love. It's really easy to read.

Before you call your W out on the boundaries, discuss that with your coach, he may have some advice.

[Sherman333]

Mozza,

Thanks for the reply. I appreciate your response.

I have no doubt I need to find an IC. I don't feel that self esteem is a big issue for me. However, you make a good point. This situation has hurt my self esteem. Possibly more that I realized.

I think that my biggest mistake in this marriage was not communicating. I did not talk to her about anything other than basic chit chat. I don't think we ever talked about our plans for the future. We never discussed family trips, what will the kids be when they grow up, or what our future may hold. I've been trying to pin point when that break down occurred and I think it was just before our first child was born. I remember feeling that any conversation would lead to an argument. So I kept all conversations to a minimum. Since that seemed to be a good way to avoid arguments, I held steady until I got the divorce papers 8 years later.

By not communicating with her, removing myself from the marriage, I never had a true understanding of what she needed and wanted in a marriage so she could be happy. Over the past month we have been talking more than we had the past few years. I can't begin to tell you how awful I feel for my past actions. The pain I feel for not making her feel like a wife should feel, for not making her feel loved, wanted and happy hurts me greatly.

I have been working hard this past month to be more open with her and we have talked several times about issues that have brought her to this point.

She has noticed the changes I have made. I have been spending more time with the kids, focusing on projects around the house, and talking to her. She worries that they're only short term changes, which I completely understand. To me, I am really enjoying being a better father and husband.

I have been thinking about if I really want this marriage to work. Right now it's a hard question for me to answer. I dread the thought of not seeing my kids every single day of my life. I can't imagine living without my family. However, we really do not have much in common. She feels we made a mistake getting married and I am starting to think she may be correct.

I finally made it to one of the few book stores left in the world and picked up DB and DR. Reading them now.

Wow... reading this really resonated with me. I think our situations are very similar. My wife in the last several years was always arguing with me about something. So I withdrew and did a lot of my own things. She wasn't interested in participating in anything with me either. Very insightful.

[Closer2]

Thanks for support Sherman. I appreciate it. I'm happy that I have broken that unhealthy pattern of pushing my feelings down and withdrawing. It [censored] that it took an atom bomb of an EA/PA and divorce to turn me around.

It's been a difficult few days and rereading my post has just reminded me of how long and difficult this process is going to be.

Our lawyers have finished the finial decree, so the divorce should be final soon. My wife has started to stay at her mother's every other weekend with the kids. She wants to start the visitation schedule we agreed on. Coming home to an empty house after a long day at work is terrible. I miss walking through to door and hearing the kid's screaming "daddy", mauling me, and making me put hand higher and higher so they can high five me.

My wife has been great. She brings up the changes she sees in me fairly often. Usually, it's little test like, "I love these changes in you, they're going to help you after we are living apart" etc. etc. I thank her for noticing and agree with her, then move to something else.

The downside to not pushing all my emotions down and keeping everything bottled up is that my wife wants me to talk to her about how I'm feeling. She even said "I find you much more attractive now that I can see you have emotions and feelings". She very good at getting me to trust her. Since it's a 180 from the old me to talk about emotions and feelings, I do. I do not talk about R or the D.

She's good at getting me to trust her. I think that can be somewhat dangerous right now. She can give me a false sense of hope.

She's still chatting with the OM. She has been respectful of my boundaries and does not talk, text, chat, facebook, etc. with him while I'm at home. I don't snoop, so I don't know what is going on with her and him. That's hard for me to deal with.

I'm doing my best to stay focused on being an awesome dad, improving myself, and letting her go. Why is letting her go so freaking hard? 3 months ago I was almost out the door.

[Closer2]

Tenbook, I have not read Five Languages of Love. I have seen the author's website and I will pick up the book.

I discussed the boundaries with my coach on our first call. However, she crossed one boundary last night and this morning. I asked her to leave the house after breaking the second boundary.

I really do want to make this marriage work. I feel guilty for the mistakes I have made, but I wasn't the only one to make mistakes. However I feel like she has constantly lied to my face time and time again.

This morning I found a letter from her OM. It was out in the open in our walk-in closet. I didn't snooping, it was just out in the open on a self. Her OM talked about marriage and how he would be the best step-dad he can be to her children (my children). More I love yous, can't wait to get married, etc.

She and I have been having regular sex with me since she filed and hasn't seen him since New Years Eve. I'll admit it, I know it was bad for me. It felt impossible to DB and still have sex with her. It has always been like a drug for me, I couldn't turn it down. After years of very little, I was pretty happy.

Now that she will be living with her mother, detaching, no sex, and minimal conversation will be easier for me. She will come home in the morning to take care of our daughter and pick our son from school. When I get home from work she can leave or she can leave after the kiddos go to sleep. I am also looking forward to spending more time with my kids without her around. I think this will be acceptable solution until the house is sold and I can move into a new place.

[Starsky309]

Tenbook, I have not read Five Languages of Love. I have seen the author's website and I will pick up the book.

I discussed the boundaries with my coach on our first call. However, she crossed one boundary last night and this morning. I asked her to leave the house after breaking the second boundary.

Very good. As hard as it is, you HAVE to follow through on the consequences. Otherwise, it's not really a boundary but more like a "geeIwishyouwouldn't."

Ending the sex is probably a good thing, as it seems to be messing with your detachment. I sure hope you were using protection when you guys were ML?

Sorry for this turn in your sitch, Closer, but it's never over until it's over. My wife and I went as far as separation, dating others, and meeting with a divorce mediator and divvying up all the holidays, birthdays, etc. before pulling back from the D abyss. It can be done. For now, however, you have to let her go and miss you.

Starsky

[Closer2]

Thanks for the support Starsky.

When I got home last night, I noticed she had packed up almost all the pictures and random kitchen stuff. I asked her why she started with pictures and random junk and not clothes? She said she was so upset all day that she wasn't thinking. She also mentioned that she broke down crying while at the pharmacy and that it all felt so real now. I wanted to ask why I didn't feel real while she was cheating on me, the attorney meetings, or when she saw me losing my mind? I didn't, I validated when it was appropriate and just listened to her. I think she's more upset about me finding that letter and ending the cake party she has been having.

I was calmer and happier last night than I have been in months. I think I feel better because I'm finally letting her go, accepted that our marriage is over, and have a plan now. A plan that does not keep me in limbo. It feels like a weight has been lifted off my shoulders. I know the the emotional rollercoaster isn't over just yet. It will get worse as she starts spending more time with the OM, we clear out the house, and deal with just general divorced life. Still, I feel really good today and I haven't been able to say that since December.

I kissed my daughter goodbye this morning, told her I loved her, and would see her soon. Told the W "Goodbye" and left for work. No texts, no calls, no emails.

[Closer2]

I have only been dark for a bit over 24 hours and it's hard. It's also pretty awesome. I felt so much less stress last night and today than I have in months.

I also did some GAL last night. W sent me a few texts during the day and really ramped them up after about 5:30. Sending me pictures of our daughter, etc. I ignored all of them, which is a HUGE 180.

Late last night she sends "are you mad?" I replied to that one with "No". She kept texting trying to get me in a conversation and I finally said "if you want to talk, come over tomorrow night". She replied "maybe".

I had forgotten I have some GAL activities planned with one of my best friends before the M.

I want to tell her that we can't meet tonight because I'll be out. Should I just remain silent? Since she didn't commit to coming over to the house, I think any mention of it from me will be seen as pursuing.

[Closer2]

I have been stressing a bit more since Friday night. My GAL plans feel through Saturday and I've had waaay too much time to think. It's dangerous for me to think.

W wants to stay at the house tonight because spring break is over and school starts tomorrow. The kiddos are going to be tough to get up and ready for school. I told her I had no problem getting them ready, but she said she wanted to stay and pulled the "my name is on the mortgage to" card (she pays zero towards it). Figured it was a "pick your battle moment".

We going to tell the kids tonight. She wants to make it sound like it's a mutual decision. I feel like we're just lying to them. I think I will tell her we need to keep it general, not mention anything about who wants to divorce. Just let them know they will be safe, protected, and taken care. We're just living in different places.

I can't get the letter her OM sent her out of my head. He said he would be the best step dad to her kids (MY KIDS!). She said it was one-sided and that she had no plans to get married. I don't believe a word she says.

I'm stressing pretty hard. I want to talk to her about her plans and her plans for the kids, but I don't see the point if she won't tell the truth.

[Joe46]

Closer, our situations are somewhat similar. I can tell you that this other male telling her what a good step dad he will be is him sweet talking your wife IMHO. I know because when I was a single guy and back in my wild days, I used that line when I was lonely. My current wife had 3 kids when we met. I had been sober for 5 years when we got together. Being a step dad is not that easy. My step kids father was a scum bag who had nothing to do with them, and it still was hard. When the real father is a good dad and still in the picture all the time, it is even tougher for the step dad. Alot of times it works out. Alot of times it doesn't. Be the best dad you can be to your kids. That is all YOU can do at this point. That is my opinion.

[Closer2]

Thanks Joe. I'm doing my best. It's difficult to put on that happy face and act like everything is perfect. I feel like I'm lying to the kids. I try to rationalize it as "protecting" instead of "lying". That seems to help. I still feel like I'm lying to them just like the W lied to me.

W is on her way home. Hopefully telling the kids will go as smoothly as possible.

Trying my best to thought stop on the stupid letter. Will not bring it up tonight.

[Closer2]

We told the kids last night. They didn't seem to think it was a huge a deal. I didn't think they would. Their only concern was the dogs and their stuff. I'm sure more questions will come. Tonight will be the first night w/o W and the kids will be with just me. A situation none of us are used to.

I'm second guessing myself for asking her to leave the house for breaking the boundaries. She did express concern because of the driving she'll have to do, but before I could say anything she said that was actually looking forward to spending more time with her mom. Plus, she get's to carry on with OM while I'm at home getting two small children to sleep solo. Then I have to hope that she shows up before 7 AM so I can get S to school and she can watch D. My plan is to keep the kids busy doing so much fun stuff they won't even notice mom's not here.

I don't think anything has changed with the A. It has only come up a few times. Once when discussing what to say to the kids. I told her I would not lie if they asked me (I know they won't ask anytime soon). She got a little upset and said she was sorry she has "feelings" for someone else. Then again this morning when she knocked her purse off the couch and the letter from OM fell out. Her only comment was that she forgot she had it and will leave it at her mom's house. I told her I would be more than happy to dispose of it.

Obviously, trying to 180 from the detached person I was has not been successful in winning her back. I keep reading Sandi's post and realize it's not at all about winning her back. It's about letting her go. I'm afraid detaching now will make her think that I have reverted back to my old ways. This time it's not about her, I'm detaching to move on and not feel so dependent on her for my happiness.

GAL has slowly improved, but it's going to be more difficult now that I need to be home at a reasonable time for her to head back to her mom's. The boxing classes I want to start taking are over pretty late on Tuesday and Thursday nights.

[Closer2]

The past few days have been a rollercoaster. W has not been staying at the house and has been coming back early to watch our D while I take S to school and go to work. When I get home we eat dinner then she heads off to her mother's house.

Yesterday, felt good. Like was getting a handle on detaching. I was focused and not affectionate to her when I got home. Reviewed what homework needed to be finished before bed, spelling test words, etc. Ate by myself then went outside to play with the kids. W hugged and kissed the kids goodbye then started to leave. I told her goodbye as she was walking away. She turned around and said "why are you being so distant?" I told her I didn't mean to be distant. I just wanted to make sure everything was ready for tomorrow morning. Then started playing with D on the swing. She left.

W started texting me while I was getting the kids to bed. I think she gave them espresso or speed because they did not want to go to sleep. I was stressing out and I had her texting me at the same time. I should have put the phone in a drawer, but I didn't. After short answers and her asking me to just talk to her, I sent a message that was too long. Far too much information about how I understand that I made mistakes, understand how important good communication is in a M, want to remain good parents, etc.

She asked me to call her and I did. It was stupid, I had a perfect excuse to not call her and I still called. It's hard not to, but I should know better by now.

I discussed how the kids miss her when she is gone (they really do miss her) and she is welcome to stay a night or two during the week (dumb!). I also discussed co-parenting articles I had read and some recommendations for difficult children. She quickly announced that she would like to stay at home more during the week, but she does not want to be physical anymore. I didn't even bring up sex. She knows that is a trigger for me. I like sex and she looks better now than I can remember. Damn my pants!

It bothered me that she took the conversation in that direction. It bothered me because I'm a master of the covert contract (NMMNG is awesome, btw). I know I shouldn't even want to have sex with someone that is in an affair, but I do. It was disappointing to hear she wants to put a stop to it, but I realize it's not good for either of us to keep at it.

She then started to spew a bit and said she feels no love or affection for me. That she never felt the way a wife should feel for her husband. I listened and did my best to validate when I thought it was appropriate. Told her I could understand that it's hard for her to remember the good times we had and the positive feels she had due to where we are today.

She then said that she never had the spark that is true love with me. I attempted to explain that love is not something magical, but a decision. We both made the decision not to nurture love in our M. I feel I was more articulate than that, but it didn't matter to her.

I changed the subject back to the kids and told her to have a good night. I had done enough damage at that point and was ready to head the sack.

This morning, so tells me to have a good day and that she has a birthday part for a friend tonight. A friend that her OM is friends with. OM lives a few hours away, but I know I would make the trip if I was him.

She sent me a text this afternoon saying that she does not want to stay at the house at all. Wants us to be platonic and start respecting the custody arrangements of the decree. I waited an hour to reply and just said "I agree".

Bad mistakes from my end. Definitely having a hard time dethatching. Going to have fun with D this weekend. I will take her to the American Girl Store and to a movie. We will have a blast.

[Mozza]

At least, you know you've made mistakes. But you knew that before they happened. So, why did you do them? How will you avoid them next time?

Go read sandi2's thread about wayward wives. Here's an extract.

Let me lump you and any other LBH'S together when I say you need to stop with the antics. They don't work, and you can make matters much worse. Which, considering she's in an A, moved away with the kids, and has the upper hand.......seems questionable, right? It's true, though, you can be your own worst enemy. The LBH can louse things up by trying all kinds of gimmicks to get her back. Ironically, it is when he drops all of that stuff and leaves her alone that works better than anything. Just stop trying to get her back, b/c it is causing you to do bad things.

[Closer2]

I made the mistakes because I'm angry and hurt. Being a recovering "nice guy", I have never done well with breakups. When she started texting me last night I was not in a good place. Frustrated with my inability to calm the kids, it was good to vent to someone about it. She can be really nice sometimes and makes me feel like we're almost dating. I let myself get suckered in again.

I will not call her. I'll come here and post, call a friend, do jumping jacks. Anything but call or text the W. I put a rubber band on my wrist today at work. Anytime I would want to check my phone, I would snap it. My wrist was bright red, but I didn't check my phone nearly as much and did not send any initiating text messages. Just one reply regarding when I would be home.

When I got home tonight I chatted with W and D for a bit. W said she was so sorry for everything and hated that I was hurting. I totally faked it. Told her I appreciate her concern, but I'm actually okay and looking forward to spending time with the kids and doing stuff for myself. Then I took D to the store for some groceries. W hugged and kissed D and said nothing to me.

Had a fun night with D.

[T384]

Post here...

Don't backslide because of your frustrations, it's like starting all over. Use the 24 hour rule if it's not an emergency so you can gather your thoughts. I too often would reply to texts out of emotion and regret it an hour later.

Take a deep breath and post here. Oh and a lot of us have kids too! We know how it is. My boys challenge me on a regular basis. Today for ex one threw sand at the other and got it in his eye and he had a huge meltdown. Deep breaths!

[Mozza]

Well done. This is all for you: you're the main beneficiary of your self-control. Even if you're angry and hurt, you need to remain under control if you want to make up for past mistakes and stand a chance. Do what works, even if it doesn't make sense for now. Your rubberband sounds like a good idea, an example of how you're truly taking the means to do the right thing. Also, it's good that you start by faking it, but you'll have to get there eventually. They smell it on us that we fake it and we're not really all that convincing. Also, it so much easier when it's genuine. I'm not there, but I have moments and they feel great. The earlier it comes, the more chances of R.

Hopefully, you understand that things will get worse before they get better, and you're ready to go through them without panicking or backsliding. This is hard.

[Closer2]

Thanks T and Mozza. D is asleep and we had a really fun night. She such a sweet kid. I want to wake her up just to hangout with her. She's sharp for a 4 year old.

She kept asking why I had a rubber band on my wrist. I didn't tell her so daddy doesn't backslide and call or text mommy. Hopefully she never has to learn DBing terms.

Now that D is asleep, I realize that W is most likely seeing the OM for the first time since I discovered the A. Starting to feel pretty bad. Snapping the rubber band like a loon.

[Closer2]

She's on her way home to get her workout clothes (she looks hot now, BTW).

Hardly any communication this weekend. I think the first time in 10 years we haven't talked everyday. Kind of mixed feelings about that. I was bummed, then happy. This rollercoaster isn't a fun rollercoaster.

I'm leaving the house while she's here. EJECT! EJECT!

[Closer2]

I asked W to leave the house and cutoff money after she broke two boundaries (no contact with OM while I was at home and no artifacts of the A in the house) a week or so ago. She agreed and requested that I start paying her the amount we agreed on for child support. I was good with that.

Last night, she seemed to have forget everything discussed last week. W came home and spent the night, which I was okay with. It's a long drive for her and hard to get to the house every morning to take care of D while S is at school. Also, our D was sick over the weekend and she wanted her mommy near.

I was okay with this for a day, two days max. However, she acted as if she is staying here until the house is sold.

She also asking for money in addition to what we agreed upon. We agreed that I would give her the child support amount while she is out of the house. Our divorce isn't final and I know anything I give her is not "legally child support".

I have no problem paying her back for anything she spends on the house or kids. I have a problem with expensive salon visits, tanning, clothes, starbucks, etc.

She just asked me "why am I cut off again?"

WTF? Let's see, oh, maybe because you're having an affair and have fired me as your husband.

First, I feel like I need to make it clear that I do not want her living here full time. It's really nice though because she does a ton of stuff. She's also been very nice to me, but I feel like I'm living with an alien that has taken her form.

How do LBS handle finances?

My suggestion to her was to get a job. Hellfire was rained upon me. I don't she'll be getting a job soon.

I don't want to finance her affair, but I also don't want to be a jerk about money. Things are fairly smooth now and this has the potential to stir up everything.

Thanks for any suggestions.

[Mozza]

My suggestion to her was to get a job. Hellfire was rained upon me. I don't she'll be getting a job soon.

I don't want to finance her affair, but I also don't want to be a jerk about money. Things are fairly smooth now and this has the potential to stir up everything.

She leaves the M and then doesn't want to get a job? Am I getting this right? How does she expect to pay for her bills?

We see this with a lot of LBS: afraid of "stirring up everything" of rocking the boat, of causing awkwardness, etc. This is indicative, in my opinion, of a much deeper problem with the LBS, one that is about self-perception, standing firm and earning respect. Your W's finances are no longer your problem. You're not being a jerk, she is, and you're being fair. Her life, her money. She won't tell you, but it will make sense to her as well. When she raises hell about anything, it's with the objective of having you backing up. The only way to her goal is over you so she'll see how tall you stand. State your fair position, then leave the room.

In my opinion, each day she spends at your place should be cut off from her weekly check. Align the incentives.

[Closer2]

Thanks Mozza. I feel that I have been more than fair. I couldn't believe it when she texted me that I was being unfair, she needed more money, doesn't know why I cut her off. I almost asked her if she had been drinking.

I have made it clear to her that I'm not going to be her gay boyfriend. I'll either be her husband if we're married or co-parent of children if we are divorced. Not her BFF.

I don't even give my friends money and I would never ask my friends for money. Sure in an emergency I would, but tanning and starbucks are not an emergency. I don't make enough money for them to be emergencies.

WAW entitlement is crazy.

[Mozza]

Again, can you clarify her financial situation for me?

[Closer2]

She has been a stay at home mom for the past 4 years. No current income. She has told me that she will not get a job until summer is over and the kids are back in school (August). She will be receiving child support.

Currently living with her mother. Mother covers rent, utilities, etc. W's only expenses are her debts, groceries, and other personal items.

When she worked, she was an admin/assistant. I have suggested part-time work in order to ease back into work life.

[Closer2]

W came back home for a few days. She told me she missed me and missed the kids. Maybe she came back to make sure her plan b was still pining for her, I don't know. However, I allowed her to suck me back to a place that I can't stay away from...sex.

The next day she was up and down. A total rollercoaster with being physical and not being physical. She loves me but feels no connection to me, etc.

I know it may be frowned upon on here, but I was okay with being physical and proceeding with the divorce. My plan was to continue learning, start GAL more, focus on my personal issues and things I needed to do be a better husband and father.

Her EA (PA not confirmed) really wasn't an issue for me. I guess it would have been if the guy lived in the same city, was in this city all the time, or even had a car. It feels strange for me to say that. I think about it, but I don't let it consume me anymore.

Anyway, this morning I had enough of the rollercoaster. She was very distant this morning while I was getting ready for work. She told me that she didn't know if she could stay in the house any longer. I tried to avoid the conversation and asked her if we could discuss it later because I had to get the kid to school and myself to work.

She called me at work and asked me to have my attorney send her the final changes to the decree. She told me again that she didn't know if she should stay at the house, she was confused, etc.

I realized that I didn't want her at the house just for sex. I didn't want her at home because I can't handle the kids. I wanted her at the house because I can't detach. It's impossible for me to detach when she is here and we are close. I am focusing too much on her and not enough on myself.

I agreed with her. I told her that I really do understand how it's hard for her because it's hard for me.

She sent me a text apologizing for calling me at work and talking about leaving the house and that we could talk about it tonight. Honestly, I had no desire to discuss it any further with her. These few days have proven to me that I will never be able to truly focus on myself and becoming a person I am happy with unless I let go of my W.

As she was walking out the door with our daughter, my son became very upset. He said that he hates divorce and we shouldn't do it. I let her try to calm him down a bit because I was afraid I would start agreeing with my son. After a bit, I whispered in his ear that we needed to go get ice cream and he calmed down. W thanked me for helping and told me that she would call me tonight. I told her she didn't have to call me, he'll be fine.

Divorced dad's must keep ice cream shops in business. We had a great time getting ice cream and hanging out. I'm looking forward to spending more quality time with my kids. We always did stuff as a family and I regret not doing more stuff with just the kids.

Letting her stay in the house and sleep in my bed was a mistake. If she asked to stay here again, I will let her. She will not sleep in the MBR though.

[Mozza]

This started not so good with the sex, then peaked real good when you told her to leave the house, but ended with a bit of a downer when you said that you'd let her stay at the house again, though not in the MBR.

You are absolutely right when you say that you need some distance from her in order to detach. It has done wonders for me. I'm in a much better place since I even cut off the email communications beyond the kids. I stopped following WW on social media too. Don't underestimate how much good this can do to you.

I don't understand why you'd let her stay at the house again. Can you clarify? Is it to be Nice?

[Closer2]

Thanks Mozza. I appreciate your feedback, advice, and questions.

You gave me too much credit though. I DID let her stay in the MBR. I will let her stay in the house if she asks. Her name is on the mortgage, she awesome at cleaning, and the kids miss her. She will not be in the MBR next time. If I have to sleep in boxers soaked in ice water, she will not be in the MBR.

I let her stay earlier in the week to be nice. It's a long drive for her to make every day. She has to be here at 7 AM if D stays with me. If D is with her, she picks up our S at 2:30 and stays with the kids until I get home. Also, because I knew I would have sex. I'm not proud of it, but it's the truth.

When our son finishes school we'll sell the house. The house should sell quickly and life should be easier (so to speak). She'll be at her mother's house and I'll have a new living arrangement.

I've been bad about texting her in the past. Rarely do I send the first text, but I do enjoy goofing around with her. I was really good at making her laugh. That's over now and has been for a few days. Emails are official/legal stuff only. I deleted my Facebook a few months ago and life has improved greatly since that day. I nuked all my social media accounts unless they are work related. I have no idea what W is up to in the social media world and I have no interest in finding out.

Final DB coaching session tomorrow morning. LRT and detaching will be my focus.

[Closer2]

My final DB coaching session was helpful. I'm a bit confused about how to handle contact with W going forward though.

My coach felt that cutting off money and asking her to leave the house may have been perceived by W as being controlling. Like I was trying to punish her. That she may view it as "more of the same old Closer2".

He made a good point that reminded me of an article by MWD regarding sex with a WW. The good thing about it is that it is challenging her beliefs that is not emotionally available to me. It's normal for her to pull back shortly after and tell me that we should stop, she doesn't have an emotional connection with me, etc, etc. He said that is the script. I should validate and be patient with her at those times. Basically keep doing the 180s from the Closer2 that she is divorcing. That is the Closer2 she does not have an emotional connection to, not this Closer2.

After my coaching session, I received a few texts from W. I replied in a much nicer tone and not with just one word answers. I also told her to have a great weekend and to enjoy her time with her friends.

W replied, "I'm so happy to see how you have changed. You're next relationship is going to be great." I didn't tell her that want a new relationship with her, that I don't even think about anyone else. Instead I thanked her. No contact since.

I think I am starting to understand the difference between loving detachment and general detaching. I detached during our M and she did from me. Communication was cold between us. I still love her, but I'm too dependent on her. I still feel that I need her to be happy. By detaching from her in a loving way, I will find happiness on my own without being cold and distant. I want her to know that I still care about her without her feeling pressure from me.

I'm not great with this emotional stuff and it's hard for me get my thoughts from head to the keyboard. I feel like I'm understand DBing better every day.

[Mozza]

Is it just me or is the advice of DB coaches generally gentler than what is advocated on these boards?

Closer2 - Keep giving the impression to your W that you're moving on. Yes, all these changes are going to be great for your next R. In fact, I suspect she is temp checking to see if you'll resist because there was no apparent reason for twisting the knife like she did.

[Closer2]

Mozza, I thought she may have been temp checking. In the past, I would have resisted, but I didn't this time. I think my response of "thanks" was good.

She came home today. I thought she was going to drop off the kids then leave. She had a cup of coffee with me, then changed to go workout. She brought her overnight bag, but I don't if she plans on staying the night.

I don't even want to ask her.

[TenBook]

Awesome discovery on detachment (more of the same) and loving detachment. I also discovered the difference between 180 where you pander and cater to her out of dependence and 180 out of independence.

So much pain and confusion we get confused on the above. Closer would you mind sharing that article on sex and the WW?

[Closer2]

Hey TenBook, I think the article was actually a MWD on youtube. I tried to find it an link it, but there's so many videos and I haven't been able to find it. I'll keep looking.

I've been reading and watching so much, it's all blending together. I need to take a break for a bit.

W is back in the house. We're being "neighbors". I haven't asked her to move out of the MBR. I don't think I will. Things are pretty smooth. I'm keeping my mouth shut and being neighborly.

Oddly enough, I was reading your WW, DB and DR thread and something Starsky posted make me really, really think about my entire M.

"Am I in love with this person as she is, or am I in love with some IMAGE of what I THINK she should be?"

I'm in love with the image. She will never be what I think she should be. She has never been what I think she be. I KNOW I can't be what she thinks I should (reality TV/movie romance).

I feel different. A mix of happy that I understand why I was hanging on so tightly but sad that I know it's time to let go. Throw on some guilt because neither of admitted this before we got married. Still, I'm happy we have 2 amazingly awesome kids. I'm not sad that my kids will have divorced parents. We'll be great co-parents.

[TenBook]

I don't know anymore.

All I can see is how much we all share in common as LBS, even down to the timelines.

Maybe in an afterlife of some sorts, we LBS all get together and finally meet and laugh over our former lives. I'm going to purposely not think about the WAS side of that equation.

[Closer2]

I agree TenBook. It never ceases to amaze me how similar many stories on this board are. From both the LBS and WAS, WW side.

These boards are a great resource for education. It's also nice to also know that I'm not the only one struggling with D, infidelity, and DBing.

The downside is that I know my W is fairly early in her EA. The fog is thick and her desire to take the R with OM is strong. It's difficult to be around her and put on the happy face. She has lied so much, I believe everything that comes out of her mouth is a lie. Why would anyone want to be with a person like that? Why do I.

Today I'm feeling very stressed with having her back in the house. All she talks about it is the D, selling the house, repairing the house, who gets what. Everything is focused on us having separate lives. I try to engage those conversations as if they are a business discussion, but I think she sees through that. There's so much I want to say to her, but I don't.

Tonight the kids are staying over at my parent's house. It's holiday tomorrow, so no school and it's "my weekend" with the kids. Since she goes to her mother's house every Fri, Sat, and Sun, I thought we could spend tonight clearing out the house. She had made plans to go out to dinner with friends. I know I should feel anything, but I do.

I need to vent a bit. Last week, she asked me if she could come back to the house. I know I probably should have said no. She offered to help prep for the sale and to help with the kids. Seemed like a good deal to me.

She hasn't done ANYTHING as far as house. She's home all day. She never misses a work out, tanning, or Dr. Phil. She picks up the kids from school and has them for 4 hours. I know they can be a handful sometimes, but let me at least put my bag down before you start. I know they make you crazy when they're picking and fighting with each other. I know it's hard to FB msg your OM when need things like food or drinks. So, you worked out, went tanning, and watched Dr. Phil. Awesome day!

Meh, I feel no better.

[TenBook]

I have no proof of this but hear me out. Losing a M requires a grieving process. I believe that the LBS will go through that when a D is finalized but the WAS has a crutch in another person. When that R breaks down and it has a 70% chance. The WAS has to start the whole grieving process again. Maybe even start to mourn the loss of their original M.
So, maybe we LBS suffer now, but maybe the WAS suffers more later. I would hate to go through 2 major breakups in a short period.

[HeavyD]

I would like to think this is true - however just a speculation on my part. It just makes sense, which is a scary thing, becuase nothing has made much sense over the past few months.

[Cadet]

I have no proof of this but hear me out. Losing a M requires a grieving process. I believe that the LBS will go through that when a D is finalized but the WAS has a crutch in another person. When that R breaks down and it has a 70% chance. The WAS has to start the whole grieving process again. Maybe even start to mourn the loss of their original M.
So, maybe we LBS suffer now, but maybe the WAS suffers more later. I would hate to go through 2 major breakups in a short period.

This is true.
And the WAS can become the LBS later on too, and have to go through it for a third time.

[Closer2]

Happy Easter DB.

Just returned "home" from the parents' house. Kids a had a great time searching for Easter loot. They crashed like a couple of strung out addicts on the way back to our house.

I had to put on the happy face as EX had a little Easter hunt set up for them. No hug from me this time. I'm trying to be upbeat and distant at the same time. No flirting from Closer!

I have been dreading her being back at the house this week. I feel like an idiot for letting her pull me back into this effed up situation every week. Having her here is great for the kids, but isn't good at all for me. She knows how to pull me back in. She's all business until I flirt with her or get close. As soon as I make the first move she reciprocates and gets "very: friendly and BOOM, I'm back to square one.

My plans for this week are:
1. Do not go to bed when she does.
2. No flirting, hugs, back rubs, etc. (bad!!)
3. No texts or call unless someone needs stitches or something is on fire.
4. I'm starting any conversation. Not engaging any emotional/personal

Arrrgh, she just walked to the laundry room in nothing but boy shorts and a hot sports bra.

Seriously, she's the devil.

[TenBook]

Hi Closer. I'm going to suggest a book, Breakup because it's Broken. Get the audible version.

When I listened to it, I got real hurt. Maybe it isn't the right thing to do, but it broke through my barriers on denial and gave me strength to detach.

[Closer2]

Ok, I was snooping. Found all of her texts over years to the OM. Talking about marriage, etc.

Do I confront her, ignore it, tell her to leave the house right now?

There are no boundaries. She's acting like she's not seeing this guy and she just lying right to my face. Her entire family is helping her lie to my face.

This [censored]. I just want her out of my life.

[Mozza]

Ouch.

Starsky309 had a similar situation in his sitch. Hopefully, he'll come around here to advise you. You can find his recent posts and post beneath them to call him here. Tell him I sent you

In short, he found the evidence of the A, then just told his W: "Stop. We both know you're lying and it's disrespectful", then left the room. Or something like this. He certainly did not tell her the extent of what he knew, and especially not his sources. Let her guess: if you are strong, you don't need her to validate that you are strong. This can't be easy for a Nice Guy but you gotta do it and become it.

I hope you realize that when you say "There are no boundaries", you say "I have no boundaries". They're yours, not hers. You need to define boundaries that you can enforce. For instance: my boundary is that if you insult me, I'm not engaging with you anymore. It's clear and I can enforce it. My boundary is not "If you insult me, you will have to apologize." See the difference? I can't enforce this one and I just look like a fool when you refuse to apologize. My boundaries control my space, not yours.

So, what are your boundaries? Can you enforce them? And instead of giving us example of boundaries you cannot enforce, make sure you think longer about boundaries you can enforce.

[Closer2]

My boundary was no texting with me in the house. No artifacts in the house.

I'm asking her to leave tonight.

[pilot]

Just read up on your sitch. Your recent post about finding text messages over "years" to the OM talking about marriage? Did I read that correctly as in she has been talking to this guy for years discussing marriage? I was under the impression her A was fairly new.

You do not have to show her what exactly you found out, and how. It is best to let her guess what you know. Knowledge is power and you do not want to handicap your future ability to gain more knowledge. I do agree with the comment Mozza made referencing Starsky. Calmly let her know she is lying, and she knows she is lying. Remind her that you made it very clear the boundaries and she broke them.

[TenBook]

Closer, I wish you strength and resolve.

[Closer2]

She has been talking about marriage with OM since Nov. She saved the text messages in a document. Every single one she's ever sent him in emails, text, FB chats. Almost 1000 pages..crazy. They've been friends since high school so most of it was just chit chat. It looks like the EA started about the time she told me back on D-Day. D-Day was in Dec and she told me the A started in Oct. That's about the only part that was truthful.

I'm really glad I found out. I knew there was more to the A than an EA. I haven't snooped in weeks, but I've had this feeling lately that there's was more going on than I knew. My hunch radar was going off the charts.

It hurt like hell to read what I did, but it has certainly given me the strength I need to just let her go. I don't have much hope left, if any. That's not as hard to accept as I thought it would be. When I started posting here, hope was what kept me going and working on my self. I feel better mentally and physically now, than when I first discovered DB.

I like the changes I've made and I know my kids are happier around me. Even my STBX pointed out the changes I have made when we talked tonight. She said she feels attracted to me now and is feeling feelings she didn't feel two months ago. I don't think she's blowing smoke about the attraction, but she thinks I'll hang out and be plan b.

I feel less attraction and love towards her. I don't know her anymore and I don't like the person she has become.

I'm setting her free. She can go.

[Closer2]

Just posting here because I can't sleep. Rewatching Breaking Bad again. Maybe I should find a new passion like Walt did?

Do people that find texts or letters from a cheating spouse typically read all of them? Do they read just enough to know that there is cheating?

It's hard for me to read 900 pages of teenage love text messages between my wife and another guy. She was so miserable and so mean anytime they discussed me. I never talked that way about her. I was a bad husband, I know I was. I was disconnected. She would push me away and eventually I just stopped trying to be close. We had separate lives in the same house. I had no idea how to fix it and didn't even know if I wanted it fixed. If only I had picked up DR or DB before she dropped the bomb. The downward spiral was so obvious. I don't know if I'll be able to let go of the tremendous regret I feel. Why didn't I work harder to save my M? For her and for my kids.

To hear her say last night that she has started to have feeling for me again and is confused was bitter sweet. I felt great that she feel an attraction and love, but it's not enough for her to stop her affair and focus on our family.

I did tell her that if she is willing to devote 110% to our M, to build a new M, I would devote 110% with her. That it would take time and it wouldn't be easy, but I would like nothing more than to give it our best effort. I knew it wasn't a good time to say that last night, but I wanted her to know that I'm willing. I also wanted her to know that it wasn't something to be taken lightly. From reading Sandi's post about R, I knew it was too early to even consider R, but I wanted her to know I still haven't give up completely.

Today was very different than the tears from last night. The spew that came out of her today was evil. She is going to try to deny the 50/50 visitation. Something we agreed on months ago. However, I caved and let her have expanded basic visitation because I thought she was coming out of her "EA" and didn't want to make her go nuclear. The decree hasn't been signed approved by the court, so I can change it. I have a feeling that she will do mediation and well end up in court. I can't afford court, but I'll figure something out.

She wants to come over tomorrow to get some of her stuff and drop off the kids. I better try to get some sleep.

If you read this, thanks for reading me rambling vent.

[TenBook]

Just posting here because I can't sleep. Rewatching Breaking Bad again. Maybe I should find a new passion like Walt did?

Do people that find texts or letters from a cheating spouse typically read all of them? Do they read just enough to know that there is cheating?

Don't to it Closer. It'll only torment you.

It's hard for me to read 900 pages of teenage love text messages between my wife and another guy. She was so miserable and so mean anytime they discussed me. I never talked that way about her. I was a bad husband, I know I was. I was disconnected. She would push me away and eventually I just stopped trying to be close. We had separate lives in the same house. I had no idea how to fix it and didn't even know if I wanted it fixed. If only I had picked up DR or DB before she dropped the bomb. The downward spiral was so obvious. I don't know if I'll be able to let go of the tremendous regret I feel. Why didn't I work harder to save my M? For her and for my kids.

Stop blaming yourself. An A is the worst act of betrayal. You are the one working on saving your M. You didn't take the cowards way out and just had an A. You took the high road.

To hear her say last night that she has started to have feeling for me again and is confused was bitter sweet. I felt great that she feel an attraction and love, but it's not enough for her to stop her affair and focus on our family.

Those statements are their to hurt you or to make her feel better by making you feel better. We have all been victimized by these statements. Stop the lies.

I did tell her that if she is willing to devote 110% to our M, to build a new M, I would devote 110% with her. That it would take time and it wouldn't be easy, but I would like nothing more than to give it our best effort. I knew it wasn't a good time to say that last night, but I wanted her to know that I'm willing. I also wanted her to know that it wasn't something to be taken lightly. From reading Sandi's post about R, I knew it was too early to even consider R, but I wanted her to know I still haven't give up completely.

I said the same thing. And what was told to me was that you are basically giving her 100% control. When I saw the look on my W's face it was not one of hope, but one of disgust.

Today was very different than the tears from last night. The spew that came out of her today was evil. She is going to try to deny the 50/50 visitation. Something we agreed on months ago. However, I caved and let her have expanded basic visitation because I thought she was coming out of her "EA" and didn't want to make her go nuclear. The decree hasn't been signed approved by the court, so I can change it. I have a feeling that she will do mediation and well end up in court. I can't afford court, but I'll figure something out.

Don't let those ray's of hope manipulate you into losing custody!

She wants to come over tomorrow to get some of her stuff and drop off the kids. I better try to get some sleep.

If you read this, thanks for reading me rambling vent.

This is hard for you, hard for anyone. But if you know that she really is gone, you will realize all those contradictory actions and statements are only their to in the end, hurt you. I too will try to follow my own advice

[Kramer]

I'm sure that I'm in the minority here, but I read every message between wife and OM. Yes, it was extremely painful, but it allowed me to see the depth of her deceit and how far gone she is. I tend to idealize our marriage and latch onto all the good times, while forgetting about all the heinous things that she has done in this affair. I need to see how badly she was talking about me, and her disrespect and disregard, to refocus my thoughts.

Don't get me wrong, I don't do this all the time. However, it has helped when I start to have a pity party.

[Mozza]

I don't know how you guys do it. I never read anything between WW and OM and the smallest thing I know hurts me. Sure, I'm curious to see what was going on, but it seems like reading these exchanges would only keep me in the past and thinking about WW, which would be counterproductive on so many levels. My job now seems to focus on myself, the present and the future. I'm not all that good at it, but I go at length to avoid situations that make it harder.

Why didn't I work harder to save my M?

Because you didn't want to be M with her but you didn't have the courage to leave her? This is the provocative suggestion that my IC put to me early in our consultations. I resist the idea to this day, but it does give me a different take on the S, so I share it with you.

I did tell her that if she is willing to devote 110% to our M, to build a new M, I would devote 110% with her. That it would take time and it wouldn't be easy, but I would like nothing more than to give it our best effort. I knew it wasn't a good time to say that last night, but I wanted her to know that I'm willing. I also wanted her to know that it wasn't something to be taken lightly. From reading Sandi's post about R, I knew it was too early to even consider R, but I wanted her to know I still haven't give up completely.

I don't understand these "buts" where the LBS state that they know what they should avoid, yet give a reason why they did it anyway. I find them on the threads of many Nice Guys who are trying to save their M, yet they make no sense. The professions of love, the pursuing, the confirming-the-door-is-wide-open, it's all counterproductive. It makes it more likely that she'll go and less likely that she'll come back. It's in DR, NMMNG and Models. Sandi2 is at a loss to understand why LBS can't get it in their heads. She's started threads to explain it, she asked the question and answered them, she's shared her experience. Yet, so many LBH just want to tell WAW, one last time, that the door is wide open because they don't want the WAW to think that they are moving on. But that's exactly what she should think to have second thoughts. Anyway, it's all very very basic DB and it's been explained a million times around these boards. I guess I'm so puzzled by these statements because I work so hard to rein them in, even though I want to write them, say them, sing them, carve them. I do it because that's the only thing that doesn't damage my sitch further. Perhaps it's a matter of self-control? Or you just don't really believe that's how it works? Or that your sitch is different?

[Closer2]

Thanks TenBook, Kramer, and Mozza. I really do appreciate the advice and/or comments. I've never been one to talk about stuff going on in my life or emotional stuff. That was a big problem STBX had. That's changed recently and it just posting here helps tremendously.

I'm not reading the chats anymore. I know what I need to know.

Mozza, I never wanted to leave her. I didn't have the guts to ask for help. We would talk, both of us would make short lived changes, then we be back in the rut again. It was text book stuff. I keep stuff bottled up too much. I still do. I'm working hard not to keep everything inside because it explodes out eventually. Just like NMMNG states.

I don't understand the "buts" either. I feel like I have this new piece of Ikea furniture, I really want to build this and it's going to be awesome. Only, I don't I have the instructions. I've read the instructions. I have the tools. I know what parts need to be in place, but I can't get the damn thing together to save my life. Thinking of my M as cheap furniture probably isn't healthy, but my point is I ask myself why I said what I said shortly after I said it.

I have a hard time STFUing when I get rolling in conversation or a debate. I feel like I'm trying to sell her on me. Like she's a hard nosed client and I'm going to win this deal because that's what I do.

I can't do that with a R. I know I can't talk her back to me. I'm going to have to work on having the internal buzzer go off when I sense myself wanting to try to reason with her convince her. I must be better about choosing my words carefully and not letting my emotions take over when I talk with her. Self-control is a big issue in those instances. The only think I can control I myself, I need to repeat that to myself over and over.

It's hard work. This is by far the hardest thing I have had to deal with in my entire life. People that have been divorce multiple times are crazy. Maybe they're just used to it.

[Closer2]

Hello DBing board. My situation is getting out of control. I'm having a very difficult time with this divorce. STBX will not respect my boundaries. The first time she did not respect them, I asked her to leave. She did and she would return home at 7 AM to care for D4, pick up S9 from school. Then leave after I got home, sometimes she would leave after the kids went to sleep.

That was very hard on the kids. It was hard on me because of how much it upset the kids. It was also difficult for me detach when I would see her every morning and every night.

STBX became very upset after a few weeks. She asked me to let her come back to the house. She promised to she would respect my boundaries and told me she understood that I wasn't punishing her, but protecting myself. I felt relieved that she could see I needed the boundaries in order to get through this divorce.

Then last week, I found all the FB chats she has been having with OM. It was clear that she did not respect ANYTHING about me or boundaries. She lied about not having sex, not going to see him, not texting him while I was in the house. Every boundary was mocked by her.

I realized last week I have no control of this situation. She is gone and she will hurt me with no remorse. She will do what she wants to when she wants.

Yesterday realized that I can't live like this. I asked her to leave the house and if she did not leave, I would. She told me that she knows she has made terrible mistakes and she wants to refocus on the kids and the house. She wants to help me get it ready to sell. That she will not leave to go visit OM anymore until we sell the house. She said that even though she knows I'll never believe her, she really does want to stop hurt me.

I listened and validated. I told her I don't think I can trust her right now, but I do want to get the house sold. If she really did want to stop hurting me, she needs to stop lying. That's the only boundary I have now. Just stop lying. Go off with OM, call him, text, just don't lie about it.

Again, she assured me she wouldn't lie. She wanted to work together with me and try to rebuild a relationship so we could be good co-parents.

Then she says that she'll be out of town for the weekend.. WTF???? She's going to OMs to tell him all of this on Saturday and spending the day with her sister on Friday.

She calls me today to see if D4 can stay at her sisters. I ask her to put D4 on the phone so I can talk to her and tell her I love her. STBX busts into tears and tells me she is at OMs.

Wow, not even a full 24 hours. She is sick. I am just as sick for even thinking she was being honest about helping me with the house and not wanting to hurt me. If she had told me she was going to see OM on Friday it wouldn't have made it any worse than leaving on Saturday. Why did she even lie about it? I don't get it. I just don't get it.

Her mother, sister and friends help her pursue this relationship with OM. I dread that my D4 is going to learn that to be happy you just have be selfish in life. Crush those you swore to protect if it makes you happy.

The divorce is almost final. Should be stamped by a judge next week. I'm struggling with what to do. I need to go dark, fully detach. For my sanity I have no other choice.

Should I move out? She has no job and she can't make the house payments. She can get the money. She won't make the repairs needed on the house even if she has the money though.

Should I stay in the house? Change the locks? I can drop off D4 at my parents everyday and have them pick up S9 from school. I can pack her clothes and put it in the driveway for her pick up.

I know I need to detach. I know people can do it when they are in the same house. However, everyone that must live in the same house and tries detach understand the difficulty. I have tried many times throughout this situation. I understand that I have made mistakes and I have given her way to much slack. She has abused me because of that. She thinks I will give in to whatever she wants because I have shown her time and time again that I will. She doesn't understand just how completely finished I am with her. My breaking point has been reached.

[MrBond]

"Then last week, I found all the FB chats she has been having with OM. It was clear that she did not respect ANYTHING about me or boundaries. She lied about not having sex, not going to see him, not texting him while I was in the house."

And so what are your consequences going to be?

"Every boundary was mocked by her."

Actually she's not mocking them. She can't give up what she's doing.

"I realized last week I have no control of this situation."

This is true and you shouldn't control the situation. You can only control yourself.

"She is gone and she will hurt me with no remorse."

This is a notion you're going to have to stop. She's not "hurting" you. Those feelings of hurt are what you do to yourself. She is living her life the way she wants to same like you and everyone else. In fact, she's not thinking about you but herself. Doesn't mean that she's intentionally hurting you.

"She will do what she wants to when she wants."

She has a right to just as you do.

So if you say she crossed YOUR boundary, then you need to implement what YOU feel is necessary. But it's not about you.

[Closer2]

Mr. Bond, thank you for replying. Very thought provoking.

I asked her to leave the house the first time she didn't respect my boundaries.

After several discussion, crying from her, begging from the kids, I let her come back.

I don't know what to do now. I want to distance myself from her. I want to go dark. I need to go dark. I can't go dark when we live in the same house.

I want to be better about not letting her actions have an effect on me. It's hard. Wow is it hard.

She just sent me a couple of texts. The first text said, "I am having a breakdown. I can't handle anything. Take kids. whatever". Second text said "I will pay for you to live somewhere else and will forgo seeing him for 7 weeks. He already knows."

I'm not even sure what those mean or how to respond.. "Yay!" I'm not going to respond.

[MrBond]

Have her leave again. She's at that critical stage where she's thinking she might hit bottom. These are the consequences of her actions so whatever you do to protect yourself is a part of that.

[bravo61]

closer,

she is spinning out. LET HER!!! that is part of her journey, don't take her troubles on yourself!!

that is what is stressed here, for you and the WAS-actions!

she will spew when she sees you next, you know that right? do you have a plan? better start thinking about what you want to convey that is best for you and your kids.

best of luck

[TenBook]

Closer! I've been there. Don't let her spin out confuse you for hope. You cannot take what she says as reliable. She calls you from the OM house.

You need to detach from this situation and get your head clear. You need to stop conversing and get stable. This is fresh. It's new. You will adapt but right now is confusion and panic mode.

Get clear. Now. Keep posting. Advice and support is here.

I'm cheering for you and I know what you are feeling.

Get a hold of yourself now. Whatever you have to do.

[Closer2]

Thanks everyone. I picked up D4 from SIL. SIL and BIL both expressed disgust with STBX. It was a great discussion because I had been distancing from them. I felt that they had STBX's back and only believed her side of things. They don't and they are very against cheating. I hand plans to discuss things with them, SIL unloaded to me how upset she is by her sister's actions.

I told the truth. Nothing nasty or mean. Just the truth of what has happened since D-day.

I know they won't cast STBX out, I don't want them to. I'm glad they know the truth and I'm glad they feel disgusted by her actions.

Hanging out with the kids tonight. Trying to figure out how to deal with this on Sunday night.

Tenbook, our marriage is over. I have no R ideas or interest now and can't imagine them in the near future. My focus is going dark and selling the house. I am moving on. I feel no love for her anymore.

[TenBook]

Closer my brother. Our marriage is OVER. I too need to sell our house, get signed up for daycare, and moving on. We are not alone.

I feel no love for my STBX. I love my children and I love myself too much to go through this.

No more Mr. Nice Guy.

[Closer2]

I feel much better now. The kids wanted to stay at my parents house. Which worked out well because I needed to get D4 a birthday gift. I'm taking her and S9 to the aquarium tomorrow for a "daddy's private b-day party for d4" party.

I decided last week that I can't do the big party with the STBX. There is one friend of hers that as really been encouraging the A. This year I feel more comfortable removing myself from the situation. I don't think I'll keep separate parties going forward. I like seeing the kids have fun with friends. I also don't like that I'm allowing myself to miss time with my kids because of people that have no value to me. Maybe next weekend I'll feel differently. Tomorrow we will have fun.

It also feel better after talking to SIL and BIL. I was so sure that they had taken her side. It was nice to see that they did not. SIL and STBX are very close and I completely understand that she will support STBX. It was just nice to hear that she didn't agree with how STBX is handling this. My kids love their aunt and uncle and their cousins. I feel much better about my kids spending time there.

It was funny to her SIL talk about how STBX and MIL are both acting crazy. STBX's father died five years ago and since then MIL has been acting crazy. Joining dating sites, going on cruises with guys she just met. She even married a guy after dating him for a short time in Oct. and filed for divorce from him last month. The time MIL married this guy is the same time STBX started her A. MLC trigger maybe?

Thanks for the support. I feel better. I still don't know how I'm going to deal with everything on my own. Selling this house, kids, work, and getting STBX junk out of here. I haven't even though about what to say when she wants to come back to the house and get her stuff.

[Closer2]

Just an update and doing some journaling. Had a great time with D4 and S9 at the aquarium today. My daughter is scared to death of sharks, but she enjoyed seeing them at the aquarium. We had a great time and can't wait to go back.

I sent the STBX a text today. Nothing crazy. I told her we need to talk about the getting the house sold and child care. I know I shouldn't text her, but she needs to help me with this house. I need her to meet with the realtor during the week, be here while the roofer and flooring guys do their work. I can take off some work, but not enough.

She replied that she has not been able to calm down since yesterday and has had a mini-breakdown. She is willing to help and will be at the house in the AM to watch D4, work on staging, repairs, pick up S9, and leave when I get home.

She may not be pleased that I packed all her remaining clothing for her. Maybe she'll be happy that she doesn't have to, who knows.

I'm going to do my best to treat this as a business deal. As if I'm flipping a house with a business partner. I know I have to detach more. In the past, she would pull me back with a look, a hug, or brushing against me. She would always lay on my chest and talk to me at night. That made it near impossible. AT least that will not be able to happen now.

Since Friday, I feel different. Before Friday, I thought I could see a shadow of the girl I feel in love with. I thought she was confused and torn between me and OM. I was stupid. After Friday, I know I can't believe a word she says. I know she doesn't feel anything for me. Boundaries are a joke to her.

If she helps me get the house sold..great. If she does not, I'll figure something out. I can do this. I can treat her like a neighbor.

I was reading in another thread. Sandi2 posted that the STBX needs to be dumped. She's already dumped me, but I feel like I'm dumping her.

[Bob723]

I'm going to do my best to treat this as a business deal. As if I'm flipping a house with a business partner. I know I have to detach more. In the past, she would pull me back with a look, a hug, or brushing against me. She would always lay on my chest and talk to me at night. That made it near impossible. AT least that will not be able to happen now.

Since Friday, I feel different. Before Friday, I thought I could see a shadow of the girl I feel in love with. I thought she was confused and torn between me and OM. I was stupid. After Friday, I know I can't believe a word she says. I know she doesn't feel anything for me. Boundaries are a joke to her.

If she helps me get the house sold..great. If she does not, I'll figure something out. I can do this. I can treat her like a neighbor.

I was reading in another thread. Sandi2 posted that the STBX needs to be dumped. She's already dumped me, but I feel like I'm dumping her.

Closer2,

Again, thank you for posting in my thread. I haven't gone thru your entire thread but I started at the very beginning and have read most of your posts and some of the replies.

Presuming my WAW does not change her mind about the D, we will nost likely have to sell our house, too. It's so sad as she is very creative, it has her personality written all over it.

Please, do not refer to yourself as "stupid." Most of us, whether there is another person involved or not get mixed messages from our leaving spouse. I have fallen for it, too.

You are on the right track by thinking of this as a business deal. I believe thinking of her as a neighbor or co-worker, etc. will be a good step in moving forward. I know...it's very hard to do but you seem like the type of guy who can do it!

Take care,

Bob

[Closer2]

Thanks Bob. I appreciate the reply and words of encouragement. I think I remember you writing about how your wife painted clouds in the MBR. I imagine it is hard with all the personal touches around the house. I wish you, and everyone that has found this website only the best. No one should have to go through what we are going through. All of us that remain dedicated to our families and try so hard to the best we can with a terrible situation should feel good about ourselves. I forget that sometimes.

STBX texted me on her way back from OM's. It's a more than a couple hours drive to OM's. She eventually called and I answered. She burst into tears and told me that she hates the person she has become, is tired of lying, wants to focus on the kids and the house. She told me that she knows I don't believe her and she will show me with her actions. She said she is tired of OM and he has agreed to no contact until the house is sold.

I told her this is hard on all of us. I appreciate her concern and her telling me that she will focus.

Do I believe her? No. Not at all.

I think she has almost hit bottom. She's on her way over to talk and I really don't know what I'm going to say to her.

I have no idea what she wants to talk about and I'm trying hard not to mind read. The only think I want to talk about is selling the house and how the kids are going be taken care of while I'm at work. I would prefer if all the apologizing, crying, etc. that has been coming from her for the past few days would stop. BGP time for her. I'm done with this and she can either help me with the house and the kids or not. It's going to get sold and the kids will be taken care of with our without her.

Ok, I feel better now. Venting here helps. I CAN DO THIS!!!!

[pilot]

Do not mind read and be careful about reading too much into her one conversation on her drive home from OM. Remember, her life is a roller coaster just as yours is. And it is quite possible she just had an argument or disagreement with OM. It is going to take her much longer to get over OM than just a drive home from his house. Now I am not saying discount everything, just be careful about reading too much into it.

[Closer2]

Thanks Pilot, I appreciate the feed back. I have several of your posts and I have learn a lot from reading them.

I only referenced her getting upset not because I hope for R. I don't see an R. If I did, I would be very cautious and I know it would take much, much more than a couple of tears.

I mentioned it because I think she may have hit bottom. Maybe not rock bottom, but she's close. I would like to see that happen not for R, but so she can be focused on selling this house.

I want to move on. To do that, I need to make sure that:
1. The kids are taken care of while I'm at work.
2. This house gets sold.

I do not want to live here. Too many memories and it's over an hour from my office. I know it seems like R is what I'm hoping for, but it's not. I'm truly hoping to get through this D and just be done.

This is definitely a 180 from how I felt a week ago. I don't have the anxiety or nervousness I had when I was hoping to R. I feel very determined and driven to move on. No more Mr. Nice Guy. Just I'm going to be an awesome father and sell this house guy.

[Mozza]

L

I know it seems like R is what I'm hoping for, but it's not. I'm truly hoping to get through this D and just be done.

This is definitely a 180 from how I felt a week ago. I don't have the anxiety or nervousness I had when I was hoping to R. I feel very determined and driven to move on. No more Mr. Nice Guy. Just I'm going to be an awesome father and sell this house guy.

Why is it that you don't want to reconcile anymore?

[TenBook]

Closer... have you been talking your experiences out with any safe friends?

[Bob723]

Thanks Bob. I appreciate the reply and words of encouragement. I think I remember you writing about how your wife painted clouds in the MBR. I imagine it is hard with all the personal touches around the house. I wish you, and everyone that has found this website only the best. No one should have to go through what we are going through. All of us that remain dedicated to our families and try so hard to the best we can with a terrible situation should feel good about ourselves. I forget that sometimes.

You're welcome Closer! What a great memory you have - you are correct about the clouds. It is hard with all the personal touches.

You reminded me of something -- we should feel good about ourselves!

WE CAN DO THIS!

Bob

[Closer2]

Mozza, I should stop saying I don't want to reconcile. I feel like it's too early and she's too deep into the affair. However, it's been 6 months and based on the discussion today, she's bottomed out. It's amazing to watch the script unfold. She was crying, apologizing, she said she felt like a drug addict and hates the person she's become. She never mentions reconciliation and I don't either. She only said she will not go see OM and she needs a break from him.

Tenbook, my safe friends don't get DBing. They can't believe I haven't booted her to the curb or walked out. They do a great job pumping me up by commending my commitment to her and the kids. So that's good.

I'm on my phone, so it's harder to type. I think I did pretty good today when we talked. I rocked the hell out some validation, didn't focus on the negative, didn't play the victim. I was strong and confident. I normal flip on the nice guy switch when she cries, not today.

[Bob723]

I'm on my phone, so it's harder to type. I think I did pretty good today when we talked. I rocked the hell out some validation, didn't focus on the negative, didn't play the victim. I was strong and confident. I normal flip on the nice guy switch when she cries, not today.

Closer,

Good for you . . . keep it up!

Bob

[TenBook]

Hi Closer,

I hope that this is the beginning of a turnaround but I went through that and my STBX's break from the OM just ended up in going back to him.

But I heard the same things. So, I hope I'm not being toxic to you by telling you my own jaded experiences.

[Closer2]

Thanks guys.

TenBook, I don't want to be toxic to myself, but I don't think this is a turnaround for our marriage. I believe this turnaround for her to do what she needs to do to end our marriage and be with OM. She said that she is dedicated to getting the house in order, to the kids, and to me. She said that she will not see OM for 7 weeks and he was okay with that, he understood. How is she dedicated to me? Sounds like she's dedicated to OM.

She did ask me what she needed to do to trust her again. That I could look at her phone anytime. I declined her offer. I don't feel the need to see her phone because we're still getting divorced. I didn't say that to her because I'm avoiding an R talk. There is no R now. I told her I would need to think about it because right now I just don't know.

She said she would show me through her actions.

What actions?

Getting the house ready to sell, getting the kids ready to move into her mother's.

Awesome, your actions to separate me from my kids and your life are the perfect way to show me how I can trust you. Why didn't I think of that?

I wasn't sure if she was serious and I should see that as an action to build trust or if she was insulting me. I found it kind of insulting. I didn't push back because I wanted to process the situation a bit more.

My head is all effed up now. During our M I was a nice guy. I kept my emotions bottle up because I didn't want to rock the boat. She has told me that sometimes she wasn't even sure I had emotions (so you thought I was a psychopath?). After reading books like DB, DR, and NMMNG, I am definitely more honest about my emotions and how I am feeling. However, I don't really want to share that with her right now. She has been having her emotional needs filled by someone else, she has lied constantly, and I can't be open with someone I don't trust.

I really need to get some more coaching. For now, I'm going to distance myself and just monitor the situation. I don't want to pressure her, but I also don't want to be crushed. I think I need to keep focused on this as a business deal.

How do I trust her again? Is this a sign of R, but because I have been avoiding discussing R she feels that I'm onboard with D? Am I right to think that it's to early to ask for NC with OM?

At least I have some GAL activities planned. I need to plan more because right now I feel like I'm over thinking. I need distractions. I need to focus on myself.

[pilot]

It is good you are able to keep things "business like" if even only in appearance to her. I would say this is not a sign of R because she has not made any indication that is what she wants nor has expressed any regrets about her actions. Good for you for not jumping at her offer for transparency. That being said, remember to keep the path home paved smoothly. Keep being the best person you can and make sure you keep all of your changes visible to her and limit your backsliding. Dont read too much into moving forward with selling the house. If nothing else it could be a chance for you to show off the new you, and more importantly the happy detached you. Whether or not she keeps away from OM for 7 weeks is really out of your control.

[Closer2]

She has expressed regret. She seemed broken yesterday. I have never seen like that. It was different than when I discovered the affair. When I discovered the affair, she was upset she got caught. This was different.

She told me that she hates the person that she has become and she wants to change. I don't want to trivialize what she said or how she feels. I'm cautiously optimistic. I still don't trust her.

[u-turn]

Hey Closer,
I feel like I've been there, first the regret that she got caught, then the regret that she let herself down, but nothing further.

I would definitely tread lightly with this - much caution. Sometimes it just seems self-serving for them.

[Bob723]

Hey Closer,
I feel like I've been there, first the regret that she got caught, then the regret that she let herself down, but nothing further.

I would definitely tread lightly with this - much caution. Sometimes it just seems self-serving for them.

Hey Closer,

Reading your posts today, I can see why you feel so confused. As u-turn put it tread lightly. Somehow you have to try to find a balance between that and keeping that road home paved smoothly.

I like the fact that you were not reacting, taking time to think things through!

Good for you.

Bob

[Closer2]

Hey Closer,
I feel like I've been there, first the regret that she got caught, then the regret that she let herself down, but nothing further.

I would definitely tread lightly with this - much caution. Sometimes it just seems self-serving for them.

You're right U-turn. It's just self-serving.

Last night, she asked me if she could get the wifi password and I hesitated. She instantly said she didn't want it if I was going to have a problem with it. She then asked me again what I needed to trust her. I was honest. I told her that I can't trust her as long as long as she is having an A, she is divorcing me, and she is removing me from the daily lives of my children.

She became upset and stated again that she feels terrible, broken, ashamed. All her lying and deceit finally caught up her with last weekend causing her to have a breakdown. She has noticed how much I have changed and sees that the changes are real. She feels awful that she kept lying to me while I have been working so hard and she doesn't want to do it anymore. OM has agreed to NC while she....

The "OM has agreed to NC while..." just made everything she said b.s. in my mind. I was at a loss for words.

Maybe I shouldn't have told her what I needed to trust her. I was nervous about that, but it kind flew out of my mouth. She's doing everything she can to make me happy, but I know she's just manipulating me in order to avoid confrontation.

The kids are happy to have her home. I'm happy that she keeps telling me she is going to work on the house. I'm not happy it's hard as hell to detach with her at home.

Take it slow. This is a business deal. We're selling a house. We're co-parents.

[Closer2]

It's so calm around here it's unnerving. W has been respectful and seems to be serious about the temp NC she has self imposed. She has been much more affectionate, which I don't mind. I worry about cake eating. I do like cake though.

I'm feeling much better because she seems to have at least poked her head out of the fog. At least she understands that she has responsibilities with the house and kids.

She made dinner reservations for us this weekend. I suggested maybe another time, we have too much work to do. She asked me why I wanted to cancel and to be honest. I told her I felt like it was a "date night" and didn't feel up for something like that right now. She got a bit upset that I didn't feel like going on a date with her. I'm really trying to be more honest and direct. I don't know if that was the best response though. Still, I would rather pay the price and deal with any repercussions from honesty then to let my resentment build.

It's almost our 10 yr anniversary. I have plans to go out of town that weekend to see a friend. Haven't said anything to W about it because it hadn't come up. I don't think I should unless there's a reason. Could not saying something be considered passive aggressive? Could it be seen as a chance for he to get with OM?

[pilot]

You are definitely in a tough spot. On one hand, you may be correct. She may just be cake eating. On the other, she may really be second guessing herself. If she is cake eating, then declining her offer to have a dinner 'date' was the right move. On the other, if she was really having second thoughts, it could have been a chance to have a nice friendly evening together.

From my experience, you probably did the right thing. Months after my W and I separated (we were living in separate towns) we had a few date nights. These nights things seemed like we were back to our best of times together. But even though these nights were really nice, and 'felt' good, the truth remained there was a lot of distance between where we used to be and where we were then. Those nights may have served as a reminder to her, and me, of how things used to be. But until the underlying issues in our M were addressed, they were really nothing more than a brief emotional timeout.

I hope some others with experience chime in soon with their thoughts for you.

[Closer2]

Thanks Pilot. I had her cancel the reservation.

She's become more much more distant since the "meltdown" at the end of last week. I have been focusing on being upbeat and having good PMA. I know it's mind reading, but I feel like she thinks I'm okay with everything. Like I'm a doormat.

She keeps asking me what she needs to do for me to trust her again. I lied and told her that her actions will build trust. I feel like a liar because I don't know how to answer the question. I want to answer her question with a question. Why? Why do you need me to trust you?

She has lied about having sex with OM. Lied about seeing him almost every weekend since dday. However, she has been very honest about not loving me and wanting to divorce me.

I don't want to give up, but I think I should start respecting what she has been honest about. I haven't been GAL like I need to. I haven't been DBing enough the past week and need to refocus.

The decree may be finalized next week. Once it is, I'm moving out.

[pilot]

She has lied about having sex with OM. Lied about seeing him almost every weekend since dday. However, she has been very honest about not loving me and wanting to divorce me.

I don't want to give up, but I think I should start respecting what she has been honest about. I haven't been GAL like I need to. I haven't been DBing enough the past week and need to refocus.

If she is lying about everything else, how do you know she is being honest about the above?

[Fogg]

Closer

I can understand your hesitation about things, so go at the pace your comfortable with. If shes serious about wanting you back she will do what it takes to make it work. I also don't see a problem answering her question about the trust with what you said, you honestly don't know right now. Maybes its time that you need and to see her consistent actions that will do it, maybe not.

That 10 year anniversary is rough, I had to experience it earlier this month but not in the situation your in now so I can emphasize with you on that. Keep being awesome.

[Mozza]

You shouldn't project that you're ok with her wayward behaviour. You should project that you'll be fine without her and that you have a lot thinking to do regarding her actions. Keep her guessing.

It's ok to respond to her with a question: Why do you want me to trust you? Why do you feel you have to lie to her? Do you think it's the DB way?

Keep your GAL and DB at maximum level. This appears to be a crucial time.

[Closer2]

Pilot - her actions tell me she is not lying.

Fogg - That's a good point. She does not want me back. She has been clear about that. I keep DBing and trying to be focused on saving the M. Why? If she asks me what she can do to earn my trust, I will ask why.

Mozza - I'm not doing a good job projecting that I'll be okay without her. She's not guessing. I know that I'm trying to friend her back into the M. It's not working. I felt that I had to tell her something. It was a NG move from me. I didn't want to rock the boat by being honest.

My coach instructed me to focus on 180s that showed her we do have a connection and I was not as detached from our relationship as she thought I was. He even commented that it was a bit different LRT. It was very successful in the beginning. We really did start to reconnect. Her connection to the OM is still too strong and her focus is with him now.

[Closer2]

Readjusting my 180s. I think I lost focus after discovering the text messages and then her breakdown.

I feel like I had major backslide for almost an entire week. Due to her telling me that her focus was being at home and the kids. I saw that as a chance to get her back. I tried to show her how great it is at home. I should have continued to focus on my life without her.

I did not slowly and quietly approach the squirrel. I ran at it throwing nuts screaming "EAT SQUIRREL, NUTS ARE GOOD. LOVE ME SQUIRREL!!!"

Maybe not that dramatic. I freaked out the squirrel though.

[TenBook]

There is a silver lining in backsliding.

Your next step is a familiar one. You just need to take it.

[Closer2]

Had a good night doing some GAL tonight. Get home and the kids are excited to tell me about their night. I walk into my D5 room and W is FB msging with OM.

I know I should have walked away, but I asked her to stop. She then started to tell me that she is sick of me being concerned about who she is talking to. I told her I was only concerned about her talking with OM while I'm in the house. Something she promised she wouldn't do less than a week ago. It wasn't even something asked, she told she wouldn't do it.

She left the house tonight. The decree should be finalized this week. I'm going to find an apartment this week and move out. I have to get out of here.

[Cadet]

New thread

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...452#Post2561452