T0324 ... Cinco

[T384]

I was implying to him being something he isn't ... When she said we want them to be something they aren't.

[woundedfool]

Oh, but to directly answer your question:

I don't know how I would handle the phone issue. The problem is if pressed too hard, he can just run out and get a tracfone/boost/etc. Then you get to see the "clean" phone, and he has the potential do "dirty things" on another. So who becomes the winner there?

We talk here about love tanks and filling them, I think there is such a think as a trust tank.... and yours is empty. Keep working toward filling it.

[T384]

It's just hard to fill when he's sleeping with the phone in his pocket.

I'm just going to bring it up in counseling if it continues to be an issue

[sandi2]

Hey, I said we were too much alike.  Maybe I'm not the one to ask.  

Seriously, I am trying to take into account what the fellows have said from their point of view in how men are.  We girls will never understand why they do some things the way they do!  If he sees this whole thing as defying you, then I suppose he could see sleeping with his phone as his way of controlling you.  Whether his motives are something more, we don't know, yet.  But look at it this way, maybe he's scared you will learn more about where he's working and the details involved.  He doesn't have the guts to man-up and do what you want him to do, so he resorts to this type of behavior.  (Not that you would have to have his phone to find out a few things, but I'm trying to think like a man here.   )  Apparently, he is just shutting you out his life (or trying to show you he can).

Bottom line, it would be extremely hard for me to be in your shoes, however, I do agree that letting the phone issue go is the only way to handle it....at this time.  If he's in another A, it will eventually come out.  If he's not, then he probably needs to see you letting go.....and let him act like a jr. high school girl with his phone.

My grandmother used a term "Grit and Grace" that I find fits how we need to handle a lot of things we face. 

Don't bring up any issues at this time.  Just smile and go on about your life and let him deal with his problems that he doesn't wish to include his W.  Wait and see what happens in the C session next time.  And if possible, let the C deal with what needs to be said to H, b/c you've already told the C what he's doing.  

I know it will be tough, but you have already gone through the toughest ordeal you've had to face with him.  You can do this.  ((To))

       

[Zues126]

Hey T0. Thanks for replying to my post. I want you to know as I wrote that and am writing this one I'm not giving you 'feedback' on what you should do or suggesting you do anything at all. This is just me sharing thoughts about my sitch. If it helps you understand your H any better, great. What if anything you choose to do with it you know better than I, and your H is not me. Ultimately you are the one that stood by your M, so you don't have to prove anything to us about your character.

I was thinking about the H's need to be appreciated, admired, accepted. I know that is my PRIMARY need. We guys do all kinds of stupid things thinking at the end of it there will be a good woman that says proudly to her friends and family "that's my man".

The last few years of my M my wife didn't feel that way towards me. Nor does she now. Quite the contrary, she has disdain, contempt, irritation, impatience, criticism, and frustration with me.

Now here's where it gets hard. I go to work and I am the best at what I do. I get promoted again and again and again, am in the top .1% out of the thousands that work at my company, provide for the family, and am considered "one of the best assets in my district". I'm interviewing people or running big campaigns, etc.

Then I shoot pool. I just won the biggest tournament for the year in my home state. People ring around to watch me play and I'm talked about around town as a cult celebrity.

I'm funny, very smart, deep, sensitive, (and LOYAL) and have close friends that appreciate me. I have a great relationship with my parents and my children.

So basically...everywhere else I go outside of the home I am well respected, admired, appreciated, and accepted. Then I went home and somehow I was a worthless idiot that couldn't do anything right. She never asked herself what everyone else saw in me. I guess that was too hard.

That's ultimately what caused me to pull away from her. I was done with that. It was ridiculous. And then she left. Now in her mind I'm the abusive ex husband that mistreated her. Good for her.

I'm done looking at myself through her view. It hurt me because I loved her so I valued her opinions and wanted her approval. But I couldn't get it, and finally I had to ask myself...which one of us is wrong here? Am I wrong for being the way I am? Or is she wrong for not accepting/appreciating who I am?

It doesn't really matter. I am who I am so I have to appreciate myself, and I am. I'm having fun. I am playing poker now and just final tabled a nice online event. My new hobby. Took a hard beat at the end so am posting to cool down. I am crushing it at my new job. I am hanging out with my friends. And best of all I am doing amazing things with my kids.

Honestly I no longer care what my STBX's issues with me were. I looked and continue to look in the mirror, but I am who I am. I'm willing to make compromises to be in an R and hope to again someday, but I know now that I can never change into someone that will make a woman happy. She will either decide to appreciate me or not. Not because I'm awesome. Not because I'm not. Just because the only choices are to appreciate me or not, and I hope to find a woman that decides it's a less appealing life to go the road of "not".

PS- The same applies for you. You don't have to see yourself through your H's eyes. Be the person YOU want to be.w

[Train]

Zues,

I'm so glad you posted this. T, I hope you don't mind, but I want to pick Zues's brain for a moment in the hope it helps both of us with some clarity. (Oh, and fwiw, I agree with sandi ^^^, as usual.)

Zues, taking things a step further (and I recognize I'm asking you to speculate a little here because this isn't your experience):

Among the topmost needs of most men, as you pointed out in your own case, is the need to be admired and appreciated.

But in T's case (and mine and many others), we have figured that out AFTER serious damage has been done to our M. And after our Hs have left us for OW. When they come back, we WANT to meet their needs. But it's really, REALLY hard to feel or show appreciation and admiration in the first few weeks/months after our Hs have returned after abandoning their families for an A.

But if we can't meet that need? Chances are we are just starting that cycle all over again.

So what are your thoughts on that? What are some ideas you have for T for how to show admiration and acceptance and appreciation when her H is just home from an A? Or would you suggest she even tries to meet those needs of his at all right now?

[gan]

Good question, Train! Looking forward to seeing Zues' response.

[Zues126]

Hahaha I'm flattered. Just remember Dr. Phil I am not. And it's really late so I'm a bit spacey.

First off, I totally get it. What a WAS does is pretty inexcusable in my book, and to promise the moon for a 2nd chance and then do things to deliberately cause distress (hiding the phone, new car...both of these things are intentional) is just goofy to me. It really does seem manipulative. But I'm not here to mindread your H, just to try to think about the question of admiration.

I think the problem is that it's easy to let his actions portray him in such a negative light that all that can be seen is negative. Or that his actions excuse other resentment towards things that have nothing to do with the sitch but are more about who he is as a person. Like his behavior gives the right to be resentful and then it leaks into old pet peeves like how he handles money or conflict.

I think there might be a balance. Between admiration/appreciation/acceptance and still not putting up with certain crap. In a way it would be nice to convey the message "wow, what an attractive, funny, impressive, and important man you are! Gosh it sure is too bad I can't be close to you the way you're acting because man I'd love to get our grove on!"

In other words, admire the man he is and how he handles everything OUTSIDE of this vicious circle, and then neatly remove yourself from that cycle and don't get run over or hurt. That would be nice. Not sure how easy that is, but that's my brainstorm. If you could see him how his friends/coworkers/family see him, and simply set boundaries about how you'd be ok with, that might be a good step.

I agree it's a challenge when he doesn't treat those others as poorly, but someone has to break the cycle.

Sorry for what you're going through T0. I wish you the best. Remember, I type this as a single man because I couldn't make my M work. I'm doing ok, but it is awfully quiet in my single apartment tonight. And while I'm enjoying my life, I still wonder if it just feels like a nice break from a struggling R, and that in a year, two years, three years...that's when the permanence of the situation will really start to sink in.

Right now the road away from your H might actually be less painful. I applaud you for the road your on. No one can be sure where it leads, but you're walking it for the best of reasons. Thank you on behalf of your H for putting up with him. Find a way through and you might even find he turns out to be a decent guy to grow old with. Either way you will always stand tall.

[T384]

Thanks you guys and gals

Zues- I really appreciate you're insight. I agree he needs to be admired and appreciated but I am struggling to find that balance. He stopped sleeping with his phone In his pocket after our MC session and now the last week it's in his pocket every night. I havenf said a word. It is eating me away - I am trying not to let it but I am just dumbfounded about it. I know if I bring it up it will lead him to throwing that I'm controlling and whatever else he feels like saying.

It is hard for me to admire while he's acting this way. My C told me I have the difficult task of being happy so H doesn't see me as negative (which he told the counselor I'm a negative person) but not being a doormat. Him seeing me as a megative person really bothers me. I know it's just how he feels but like you described yourself H is the only person that views me that way. I have great relationships with everyone else in my life.

I truly feel that H does not know how to handle his emotions. He moved out of his house when he was 15 because he and his father did not get along. He felt like the odd one out and his parents doted on his older brother. His dad was not involved In any activities he did and they fought constantly. My family was very different. I grew up in a loving home with a very involved family. So when H first came into my family he had to get used to hugging my family, them telling him they love him, Etc. His family is not like that. He does talk to his mom but his dad and he have no real relationship. Sure they talk when his family comes down to visit 1-2x a year but that's it. I've never heard FIL tell H I love you or am proud of you. Quite the opposite actually. A few years ago when we were at dinner FIL was making comments about H saying he never finishes a project (kind of true) and that he just walks away from projects or jobs when things get hard instead of sticking it out. it was a really awkward dinner but really shed some light on their relationship for me. H and I talked a lot about it that night and I was sad for him that his father couldn't be happy for him of the life we have created. We were pretty successful for our age at the time.

Anyway, I believe that H gets miserable easily. So this job he hates. He told the C he hates waking up to go there everyday. So in his eyes the job = me. He is there because of me. He had to quit his other job with his 'friends' because of me. So when one thing in his life is miserable he cannot isolate that.. Instead it radiates into all aspects of his life and he just shuts down. Then I get pushy what's wrong? Why are you so quiet? And he shuts down even more.

So now I am just STFU. I am not asking what's wrong I'm just being in a good mood and keeping it light. But I would be lying if I said seeing that phone in his pocket every night doesn't bring down my PMA dramatically because there's no good reason to hide it. Short of following him I really don't know how else to find anything out. There is nothing on Facebook at all.

So Zues- thank you for your insight. It sounds like your W lost a great man.

[T384]

Just journaling a little. Not too much to update around here. More of the same. H's phone is still not left out at night. I've kept my mouth shut about it.

I worked the last few days and made sure to kiss H when I got home (180).

He has not been working at ex boss - so he says. He has been looking for some extra work through friends. I did not inquire.. I called him on my way home to see if we needed anything at the house and just asking what they were doing. He said he was at a buddy's shop picking up some side work. I said oh that's good. He said Ya I haven't worked at X boss I've just been talking to A (a friend of H's who took he worked with at ex boss. They have remained friends). I just said oh that's good and dropped it.

Last night we took the boys to Monster Jam with some of our friends. H seemed to have a good time. Well we all did! He is still not affectionate towards me but he does kiss me good morning and good night and says ILY. The only thing I have initiated was the kiss when I get home from work. Other than that I only reciprocate what he does.

I keep re-reading Sandi's rules and went through DR again. I'm trying to tailor what I'm doing to My situation. I would be lying if I said I didn't thiink he was setting me up for another BD. Before BD I wouldn't have thought twice if his actions but now I am skeptical of anything he does. I feel like he's saving money behind my back and is going to leave again. I know I'm mid reading and trying to work on these feelings but I'm trying to keep it realistic that any of those things are a possibility. I would feel a ton better if he wasn't so secretive of his phone.

Anyway, today I am getting out of the house. H is just sitting around and I asked if h e wanted to take the boys to do something and he said sure but hasn't moved. So we are up and getting ready to leave. We are going to pick out some flowers for the yard and get lunch.

So thats it for now. just trying to keep quiet and be happy.