Mozza (8) + Links to success stories

[Mozza]

Mozza 1 - 2009 near-separation, search for explanations.
Mozza 2 - OM confirmed through kids on Halloween, refocus on me rather than blaming W.
Mozza 3 - OM confirmed by W in email, strollergate, W has problems at work, unexpected blind date.
Mozza 4 - Lunch with W went well, reflections on being dumped, kids and OM
Mozza 5 - W warms up but OM set to move in in January, W's birthday email
Mozza 6 - To be nice or not to be, two trips make me feel better, office party video
Mozza 7 - Turning down lunch invite, telling W I need to move on, W emails about D

My story
After 9.5 years together, my W announced in early September 2014 that she wanted a separation. A week of pleading and begging didn't change a thing. She said she wanted to be free, alone, find her true self, that I was criticizing her too much, that we're incompatible, that she was unhappy and no longer in love with me and she didn't want to live with half-emotions. She had told me before of some of those complaints and that she was miserable. We had not yet addressed everything, we would fight more than average, and I wasn't changing fast enough, so she was growing hopeless that things would improve.

A week after BD, she moved out. A month and a half later, she confirmed my suspicions that she was with a coworker, met at the new job she started a month before BD (after a year of job-seeking funded by me). A good listener, 10 years younger than me, better-looking and athletic, he'd been courting her from week 1 and was omnipresent throughout her move. He's moving in with her in January. Our two daughters know and like him and generally take the S in strides.

DBing
I accept responsibility for what I did in the M, by being too critical and dismissive of my W's feelings. I understand that my W was looking for something she wasn't finding in the M. I sometimes understand why she left, since she was miserable, and sometimes think leaving was too strong a reaction for the situation. I tend to blame her flight reflex and unrealistic expectations for love and family life.

My stance at the moment is to let her live her life while I reflect and try to focus on me. In January, I told her I didn't want to interact beyond the practicalities of the kids because I need to move on. I'm good at being silent and distant. The "no pursuing" rule is easy to apply for me because it means doing nothing. What I'm not so good at is detach. I see a therapist since BD.
_________________________________________________

Success stories
Feel free to make suggestions, especially with links to threads. I wish we had room in our profile to tell our story so that the vets and other successes could give us a quick summary.

RECONCILIATION
Thornton (M) - May to July 2014
Train (W) - Reconciled in 2014
Labug (W) - March 2011 to December 2013
HopefulStill - reconciled in 2012
minkerman (M) - Reconciled after 4 months in 2008
25yearsmlc (W) - 2005 to August 2008
FaithfulH - Reconciled in 2007
sandi2 (W) - ?
Coach (M) - 2008
MrBond (M) - Used to have another screen name
Starsky309 (M) - (ChocolateEyes, Puppy Dog Tails) - Aug 2007 to 2009. Exposed his W's A.
Butterflymom127 and FavoriteWeirdo - Thread

PIECING AS OF 2014
Crimson
T0324
Heart14
Nitty - BD in December 2013, piecing as of September 2014

LETTING GO
Love2Surf (M) - March 2010 to 2012
pearlharbr (W) - November 2008 to June 2010 (19 months)
Snow White (W) - 2008-2009. Let go when her H wanted back in.

Validation thread

[Mozza]

I also posted in the man cave, but Mach1 kindly suggested to take the conversation to my own thread. Here it is.

I too have found this (alpha-vs.-beta male) a tough needle to thread. Despite my hard-ass image here (which is more due to strategies and tactics that WORKED for me, and that I've seen work in others' sitches) I'm actually a classic fixer/pleaser/"Mr. Nice Guy" at heart in real life.

Just want to thank you again for sharing your perspective. I like your focus on what works. You may have seen in my sitch that I trust the DB process, even when it goes against my instincts or emotions.

And while that personality type will definitely make you a lot of friends, and probably get you an eternal "Well done, my good and faithful servant" from St. Peter someday, it's been my observation and experience that it doesn't really build attraction with women and a healthy sex life, even within an otherwise-strong marriage.

Interesting. I've been thinking about that because I've never been dumped before in my life, so it worked well for me. Can't say that I had even 10% of the women I wanted though. Also, she seems to have been attracted to another nice guy. The OM has an athletic build and good looks, but I don't think he has an alpha man attitude. He looks like a pleaser to me. Also, he's 5 years younger than my W and I suspect she wants a man she can control. She didn't have that with me. I was fairly confident as a H and was mostly in charge of the R. She called me her rock. At DB, she said that this rock was holding her back, that she needed to be free.

Also, we had a good sex life. We did it 1-2 times a week, which seems good to me after 10 years and two young kids. It wasn't fireworks, but it wasn't routine either (I was in charge). Lots of desire between us. I'm still trying to figure out how we could have a good sex life, yet she could leave me so quick. Maybe it was the hormones, the physical needs that camouflaged the lack of emotional connection on her side.

There seems to be some contradictions to resolve in my sitch. I still need to figure out what kind of man I am. Looking forward to the discussions around here.

Mozza.....great questions....

This thread is gonna lock soon, so maybe if you wanna continue this on your thread, I would be happy to engage it there

[Complex]

Good luck Mozza 8.
It's scary to see how long the marathon is. And mine just started did you actually read about my new developments?^^

It's going to be so hard to keep detachment and hope in balance. They fight each other constantly.

[Mach1]

Interesting. I've been thinking about that because I've never been dumped before in my life, so it worked well for me. Can't say that I had even 10% of the women I wanted though. Also, she seems to have been attracted to another nice guy. The OM has an athletic build and good looks, but I don't think he has an alpha man attitude. He looks like a pleaser to me. Also, he's 5 years younger than my W and I suspect she wants a man she can control. She didn't have that with me. I was fairly confident as a H and was mostly in charge of the R. She called me her rock. At DB, she said that this rock was holding her back, that she needed to be free.

I wouldn't spend too much time comparing yourself to the OM. It's a pretty futile endeavor that will spin you down a cheeseless tunnel.

No need to undermine yourself, just to pump up the image of what you THINK that he is like....

As far as control, that is what the WAS is looking for, complete control over a situation in which they previously felt out of control.

Now, is that real ? Or is it perception ??

I can tell you that it is very real to your WAS.

Also, we had a good sex life. We did it 1-2 times a week, which seems good to me after 10 years and two young kids. It wasn't fireworks, but it wasn't routine either (I was in charge). Lots of desire between us. I'm still trying to figure out how we could have a good sex life, yet she could leave me so quick. Maybe it was the hormones, the physical needs that camouflaged the lack of emotional connection on her side.

How Men feel connected, is by the physical aspect of a relationship, before the emotional aspect of the relationship is felt. Women tend to be the opposite of that. They crave the closeness, and emotions before they "feel" the physical part.

Take a look, and try to see how much of that played into your marriage....

In most cases that I have read, there is a false closeness that happens right before the bomb. The WAS, in some way, is trying to see, and check off their list, that they tried "everything" , therefore, walking away was the last option for them.

There seems to be some contradictions to resolve in my sitch. I still need to figure out what kind of man I am. Looking forward to the discussions around here.

Only you can decide that.

What kind of man to you want to be ???

[Mozza]

Well, that's new.

I just sent a long handover email to my W because D6 and D3 had some issues this week. D6 has done a bit of bullying at school and D3 is not cooperative at the daycare. She was pleased with the email and after the exchange was over, she sent me a follow-up:

"Do the girls talk about me when I'm not there? Do you think they misbehave because I'm not there? What's your diagnostic?"

I don't want to read too much into it, but it's the first time she shows any concern for the impact of the S on the girls. She had even told me not to tell her if the girls complained about her absence. I had complied and I now realize it has the upside of her imagining all sort of awful things I don't tell her . As for asking my opinion, it's not even new in the sitch: she always thought I'm a good father and called me before because she was overwhelmed.

I replied right away, no games, no calculations. I certainly didn't guilt her because I don't think it has anything to do with the S. I feel oddly detached.

And I also realize that while I cut off all communications outside of the kids, I can still be funny and engaging about that bit and she'll see even more what she's missing outside of it.

[Complex]

Regarding OM comparisons:
Since I snooped I actually got insight on everything (reading text of her and best friend). Which I am by the way not proud of but it at least clarified my situation which was a huge relief and now I stop snooping.

Let me tell you this: compare yourself to her first and what you would share or talk about with your buddies, like sexual attraction and bs'ing around. Would you read much into that yourself?
I read her text and I freaked out taking everything word by word. Until people here opened my eyes. Yes there is truth in what W said. But we are humans. We get ourselves into thoughts constantly and we mess around with our friends, even if it's morally not right.

Long speech..BUT when it comes down to the really important things in life, your soul will be in control and things are in a different light. Same counts for plain "appeal" of someone who looks "better" or "worse" than you.
IT DOESNT MATTER. It's superficial.
Nothing matters but you.
Don't go that way.
I am trying to blend OM completely out. Easier said than done. 180 !!!!

[Complex]

The incident with your kids and her reaction is a step into the right direction but don't read any into this.
But good job how you handled it. It's hard to manage a situation like this without make her feel guilt of some sort and be obvious about it.

The odd detachment I feel sometimes too is a weird feeling. It's scary but good at the same time. Hard to describe..

[Vanilla]

It's just junk thoughts and temperature checking.

You did well to validate and confirm your views.

Mza, you are doing well

Vanilla

[Mozza]

Thanks a lot Mach1 for coming over and sharing your insights. It's hard to know "what kind of man" I want to be because I don't really know the parameters. I can say that I'm a lot of the man I want to be, but I have 180s that address the issues that pushed my W away. For instance, I want to be less critical and I want to express my appreciation and love more (I'd say ILY 1-2 times a year), and I want to be more present with my W. As for confidence, I think I have plenty in my couple. I have clarity of goals and morals and I can communicate them. I don't think it was an issue. Obviously, I don't want to become the opposite of the man I was just because she left me: there were a lot of things that were already right with me and I want to nurture them.
-----------------

So this week I'm running a little experiment: I won't be thinking or talking about the chances of reconciliation. I'm already dead and she's not coming back. It doesn't mean I'm giving up at all. I have the gift of time and I want to see what's the impact on me of considering that my future doesn't involve WAW as my partner. I want to see if it makes me feel better or worse, if it helps me to detach. So far, I've had moments where it felt great to be freed up from her, like suddenly the world was wide open. Other times, I felt awful because I still can't bear the thought of losing her forever. It's a change form the kind of pain I've experienced so far, which is more about that of applying DB (hiding my emotions from her, cutting off fun exchanges, etc.) and knowing she's with someone else before coming back to me.

Her request to start the D process gave me a push. I felt awful when it happened, but then I felt great for some 36 hours, like it had given me clarity, was removing me from a limbo of my own making. I'm not so good today, but I'm not worst than before she mentioned D.

[Mozza]

Special thanks to 25yearsmlc for her post about detahment and what it's like in my sitch and when WAW will have 2nd thoughts.

I think they are treasures on this board and I hope others in similar sitches will read them. It's especially good for people who have a hard time to detac or wonder if their WAS will ever see their changes.

Imagine that you are a widower, and that enough time has passed that most of your grief over the loss of your w, has subsided.

I've been thinking about this a lot. It often makes me feel good because I feel free from my W. That's where I had the idea to run a week considering it's really over for good. We'll see where that takes me.

I don't recall you saying you "never" want to talk to her about anything but the kids, but just that for now, this is what you need. Correct?

Correct. And in fact, our communications about the kids have intensified since then, as you can see in my post above. She even asked about the impact of S on the kids for the first time.

Basically, my fear is that she'll want to come back but will feel pushed away by me and not come and tell me.

IF your wife does someday want to reconcile, wouldn't you need a tad more than one probing question or gesture from her?

Absolutely. I've come to the same conclusion. I shouldn't hold the door wide open in case she has a sliver of a doubt. I should keep it shut and wait for her to knock clearly on it. It's not even a question of pride, it's about making sure that she has the will and determination it will take, and the love that I deserve.

Like you, I can't see a sudden awakening on her end, as the result of having no contact with you in person.

Like you, I don't know how she'd see the new/improved you, for her to know whether she wants to reconcile.

However, these issues and dilemmas are all moot right now. Can you guess why they are moot at this point and thus, do not matter?

The reason this^^ and thoughts of "how we can ever reconcile" and what she'll know or think about you and your new changes, are all moot at this point, is b/c You are not detached enough to be around her, without feeling crappy AND OR somehow making the situation worse.

Is that it, in a nutshell? B/C if so, then we need to help you detach FIRST and then figure out other approaches to take to do the DB work that you can do.

Yes, I agree that I'm not detached enough and that it's hard for me to act naturally like I'm moving on in front of her. One thing you should know is that I'm very self-controlled, so I've been good so far. Regardless, it would be better for me to detach. I've had a few moments where I was and things appeared much more clearly to me. I worried less about the outcome for instance and I feel like I did the right DB thing anyway. I really hope to be able to detach in the coming weeks.

Cutting off chit chat should have helped, and I think it did, but we have intensified the communications about the kids so much that she stays this constant, pleasant presence in my life. It makes me think about her a lot. It's the familiarity of her tone, of her writing style, of her concerns and quirks. It's her, whether we talk about the kids or not and I miss her.

Mozz, I don't think ANY Woman leaving a h and child(ten) could have zero 2nd thoughts. Absent abuse, every single mother is going to wonder if she's doing right by her kids, by leaving.

Good timing: she asked about the impact of S on them a few days later, a first in four months. It made me feel like she's becoming more "normal" about the whole thing, moving on from the classic "they're resilient".

WHEREAS YOU WISH she'd come to wonder or believe that

"Wow, Mozz is a changed man. He's a really good father. He is now the way I always wanted him to be. He's now truly the man I thought he was when I married him... wow I wonder if we could make it work, this time... what if I'm willing to own my part and prove my commitment to him? What would that look like? "

That^^ is what you wish for, correct?

Yes, that's what I want. More precisely, I hope and expect something like this:

"Wow, I really miss Mozza. I feel this love for him I wasn't feeling when I left. He was such a good man and a great father. He's a great partner for life. He seems to have changed so much, I wonder if we could get along better? Could it last? What would I have to do?"

When will they have those doubts or second thoughts? WHEN will they wonder if they really did right by their kids, or themselves?

(...)

But I really do believe that --Deep down, a mother of kids who love their dad, who once really did love her h as well, Will look back and wonder what might have been... I know she will.... Be ready for when she does that, b/c 10 to 1, if you keep at this, she will.

Make sense? Got this?

This was a wonderful list. Not all but many of the things applied to my sitch. It gives me reasons to believe (though I try not to think about that this week). As I wrote above, the fact that my WAW finally showed concern about the kids makes me think she's more 'normal' and hence that the scenarios described in DB could possibly apply to her after all.

[TLEE86]

Mozza, sorry for the latest development in your sitch, but 25yrs offered you some wonderful advice.

But I really do believe that --Deep down, a mother of kids who love their dad, who once really did love her h as well, Will look back and wonder what might have been... I know she will.... Be ready for when she does that, b/c 10 to 1, if you keep at this, she will.

Make sense? Got this?

^^^ is Gold. Many people have come back to R after D process starts/finishes. But the only way to give that a possibility is to keep at this, regardless of what happens now. Your W is on a high, OM has moved in, everything seems peachy so its logical that the next step is to file for D. So when you say your W hasn't rushed to D or is impulsive about this, I slightly disagree. No, she's not like some WAW's who file immediately after S or BD. But she is impulsive in the sense that OM has moved in, so she needs to file because she's trying to move on with her life and not really thinking about anything except OM. Keep at this Mozz, one way or another you will be more than ok.

[Mozza]

And I'm back there: I don't care much about the D proceedings. I don't even know why. I feel a bit distracted. So much that when I read your "sorry for the latest development in your sitch", I thought: "What? I'm feeling better. Oh yeah, the D email."

It might be my optimism or my reading of success stories, but I now see the R as being above the M. My W and I have an R, which also has a paper existence in the M. The R was put on hold, probably dissolved when she left. The M papers are never going to bring her back. In fact, I like the opportunity to show her that I'm moving on. I'm sure the actual proceedings will be difficult, but every day I feel more ready.

I don't know that I had a Card29-like turnaround, but I definitely feel more detached since she suggested that we start the D.

----
TLEE86: Good point. Perhaps she's more impulsive than I realize in pushing this 4 months after leaving. Oh well.

[zew]

I don't care much about the D proceedings. I don't even know why. I feel a bit distracted. So much that when I read your "sorry for the latest development in your sitch", I thought: "What? I'm feeling better. Oh yeah, the D email."

I understand this completely.

I think the announcement/service of a D can be very beneficial to our situations in that it forces us to let go. I found it to be a relief. My W started the D clock. That means this will eventually end. It has let me focus on my post-D planning, which has allowed me to totally stop thinking about W. I still have no idea how it will end, anything could happen between now and when the clock runs out, and anything could happen after that as well. I really don't know how I "feel" about any of the possible outcomes, other than that I have absolute confidence that I will create happiness for myself with whatever I get served up.

But the fact that it gives me the perspective, for now anyway, of moving on separately has let me totally detach, and that is a very calm and comfortable place to be. It's nice to drop the emotion and start thinking more objectively again. So I'm back to being the calm, cool and collected guy in the house again.

[Karma12]

Keep up the PMA Mozza. All you can do is keep the road home paved smooth, GAL and keep moving forward. Eventually your wife may catch up. Being stuck in limbo is the worst.

[MCS]

So this week I'm running a little experiment: I won't be thinking or talking about the chances of reconciliation. I'm already dead and she's not coming back. It doesn't mean I'm giving up at all. I have the gift of time and I want to see what's the impact on me of considering that my future doesn't involve WAW as my partner. I want to see if it makes me feel better or worse, if it helps me to detach. So far, I've had moments where it felt great to be freed up from her, like suddenly the world was wide open. Other times, I felt awful because I still can't bear the thought of losing her forever. It's a change form the kind of pain I've experienced so far, which is more about that of applying DB (hiding my emotions from her, cutting off fun exchanges, etc.) and knowing she's with someone else before coming back to me.

Mozza,

Yep, you saw this week my outcome from this same experiment. I was all over the place and I have to say that I feel that the roller coaster ups and downs have diminished to some point from before, but then there's a big drop for like 15 minutes and then I pick myself up and move on. Not sure what's better, but I think we are both trying to detach in slightly different ways.

So no spoilers, but I watched American Sniper and saw how his wife stood by him through it even though she didn't understand the journey he was taking or why he was doing it. She saw it as family first and couldn't understand why he couldn't feel that way, his withdrawal or also why he kept going back. Much different scenario, but I had so much admiration for his Wife and identified she probably felt a lot like we do now.

I actually broke down when I got back into the car, because that relationship and the fact she didn't give up on him hit home so hard.

[Mozza]

Keep up the PMA Mozza. All you can do is keep the road home paved smooth, GAL and keep moving forward. Eventually your wife may catch up. Being stuck in limbo is the worst.

Thanks for stopping by, Karma12. I find your story really interesting and I never miss a post of it. You seem very strong.

I've been meaning to tell you for a while that your prior experience as a WAW is pure gold on these boards. As you probably know, there are very few of them. Only Sandi2 amongst the vets have such experience and her insights are always enlightening. I encourage you to go around the boards and share this perspective. I thought about it when I saw this post on vasapro's thread.

Often the real threat of a divorce is a wake up call for some men. Unfortunately by the time this happens the wife has already emotionally disconnected. There usually were many warnings that were ignored or dismissed before reaching this point.

This is very much my case. How I wish I caught these things before my W gave up on me, before she met OM. They all seem so clear now, like looking back at the clues after solving a riddle. I feel like a bloody fool for arriving a few months late and paying the price for the rest of my life.

So this week I'm running a little experiment: I won't be thinking or talking about the chances of reconciliation. I'm already dead and she's not coming back. (...)

Yep, you saw this week my outcome from this same experiment. I was all over the place and I have to say that I feel that the roller coaster ups and downs have diminished to some point from before, but then there's a big drop for like 15 minutes and then I pick myself up and move on. Not sure what's better, but I think we are both trying to detach in slightly different ways.

It seems like an external shock can help to make the jump. In the case of Card29, he met someone interesting and then his WAW told him about the affair. In my case (and that of zew above), my WAW asked to start the D proceedings. It's the kind of stuff that forces you to stare in the eyes of our new reality. I don't know how I'll feel tomorrow, but today again, I realize that my fate is already sealed, that there is nothing to which holding on. Time to grab the bull by the horns. I felt good today even though I spent most of the day alone at home, which would have been a setup to cry a lot in the past. I had dinner with a friend (the engineer that reminds me of you!) and I didn't mention the D email until about 30 minutes in, while it would have been big news until about 1-2 weeks ago.

By the way, my friends, like this one, are in complete disbelief that my W could D me. They think I'm a catch and she's a fool. They don't know how things were and I don't take their judgement as a valid view of our M, but I do take solace in it and like to see me in their eyes to gather some strength as I start piecing a new me together. I hope you all have friends like this.

So no spoilers, but I watched American Sniper and saw how his wife stood by him through it even though she didn't understand the journey he was taking or why he was doing it. (...) I actually broke down when I got back into the car, because that relationship and the fact she didn't give up on him hit home so hard.

You're a courageous man to watch such a movie, especially if you knew what was coming. I simply couldn't watch it and would have teared up in the theater, no doubt.

For all LBS out there looking for a tear-free movie, I recommend The Grand Budapest Hotel. I'm pretty sensitive these days and I didn't cry or swell up once! It's on Netflix.

[LoveMyW]

I don't know that I had a Card29-like turnaround, but I definitely feel more detached since she suggested that we start the D.

Moz, I just mentioned about this on Cards thread.. There seems to have been a trigger that was involved (obviously).. For Card it was finding out that W and OM were finished, you mentioned the request to start D proceedings and my own was finding out about NBF/OM..

We could be on to something haha!!..

[Card29]

Mozza, keep going forward, even if it feels like you're spinning your wheels. You're not. And someday soon, you won't feel like a fool for realizing everything when you did. We did the best with what we knew at the time. The real shame would be not learning from this and changing.

I can't remember, have you read No More Mr Nice Guy? Because this:

By the way, my friends, like this one, are in complete disbelief that my W could D me. They think I'm a catch and she's a fool.

is practically a quote from the 1st chapter of the book. I had the same thoughts and convos with friends before I read it. It's not to say you're not a catch! You are because you're so willing to change.

[Mach1]

Thanks a lot Mach1 for coming over and sharing your insights. It's hard to know "what kind of man" I want to be because I don't really know the parameters. I can say that I'm a lot of the man I want to be, but I have 180s that address the issues that pushed my W away. For instance, I want to be less critical and I want to express my appreciation and love more (I'd say ILY 1-2 times a year), and I want to be more present with my W. As for confidence, I think I have plenty in my couple. I have clarity of goals and morals and I can communicate them. I don't think it was an issue. Obviously, I don't want to become the opposite of the man I was just because she left me: there were a lot of things that were already right with me and I want to nurture them.

Not knowing who you are, and what you are, is quite common around these here parts Mozza.

It is the "getting lost in the relationship" that a lot of guys do over the course of a long term Marriage, or relationship.

I think that the line that gets "fuzzy" for us, is that fine line between Love and Obligation. Do we do certain things because we love ?

Maybe we do at first, and then the Primal aspect of our Manhood takes over, and we do certain things be we feel more of an obligation rather than a Love for our spouses...

So which is it ?

What do we change ?

What do WE do differently for our future ?

And I think that is where the DB rubber meets the road.

The TRICK....

Finding out how you define Mozza, and finding out who you really are within....

You don't make the changes just because your wayward spouse "wants" those changes made....

That just perpetuates more of the same "getting lost in' behavior...

Of the conversations that you had with her...what are the things that she said, that upset you the most.

You know the ones....

When she was talking, and the hair stands up on the back of your neck....

What were those things ?

Because those are the things that YOU don't like about yourself...

That burn, or sting (as it's called round here), those are moments of growth, waiting to happen.

What books have you read ??

I recommend reading the 5LL for starters...

A few others, yet that will do for now...

[Mozza]

Thanks Mach1. That's a lot to think about. My IC is also focused on who I am and what I want. I see him today.

I have read T5LL. The language I speak is acts of service and the language my W understands best is words of affirmation. The language she speaks is physical touch and the one I understand best is quality time. Yes, lots of mismatch and I wish I knew that before. Not only would I have adjusted my language, but I would have understood better that I have higher than average expectations for focused attention and forgiven my W more easily when she didn't give it to me.

I'm reading The Year of Magical Thinking by Joan Didion right now and next in my list is NMMNG. I have read DR, of course.

[Mach1]

Thanks Mach1. That's a lot to think about. My IC is also focused on who I am and what I want. I see him today.

Well, what else do you have at the moment ??

Except the TIME to heal, to learn, and to grow...

Lemma ask you this. IF, she was to call today and want to make this work....

Are YOU in a place with yourself to support that ???

Or would be very quickly back into old behavioral patterns, only to repeat this down the road in a few months ???

Are you willing to sacrifice YOU, just to say that you are married ??

Cause I think that you have already taken that route....

I have read T5LL. The language I speak is acts of service and the language my W understands best is words of affirmation. The language she speaks is physical touch and the one I understand best is quality time. Yes, lots of mismatch and I wish I knew that before. Not only would I have adjusted my language, but I would have understood better that I have higher than average expectations for focused attention and forgiven my W more easily when she didn't give it to me.

NMMNG is a great read too.

I have a couple others when you are done with those..

Co-dependent no more
The journey from abandonment to healing

Also, please make sure that you read for fun too. Don't let this crap consume you from the inside, by only feeding what is on your plate today.

The future is pretty bright Mozz, and just because you have rainclouds this day, there will be sunny days too...

I also want you to keep 5LL on your reading list down the road. The first time that I read it, was shortly after my bomb, and it read to me as a laundry list of how I F'ed up my marriage. The second time I read it, was down the road a few months, and it took on a whole different meaning for me.

I found out that the way that I receive love, is differing from the way that I show love.

Don't beat yourself up about it either. A lot of us would have been much different if we only knew....

You did the best that you could with the tools that you were working with at that time...

Now, is the time to reload your toolbox....

[Mozza]

Lemma ask you this. IF, she was to call today and want to make this work.... Are YOU in a place with yourself to support that ??? Or would be very quickly back into old behavioral patterns, only to repeat this down the road in a few months ???

I believe it's too early for her to come back, even from my own perspective. I'm changing every day and I'm learning, sometimes about myself, sometimes about relationships and people in general. I test how much I've changed by observing my behavior with the people around me and I feel I still have some way to go.

It's because I'm aware of this, and that my W herself has her own journey, that I've accepted to go NC except for the kids, turning down her invitations to lunch and banter emails. I have the gift of time.

Are you willing to sacrifice YOU, just to say that you are married ?? Cause I think that you have already taken that route....

That's new to me, though it does sound like what my IC is telling me. He's saying that I'm passive aggressive so I pushed my W away with my unpleasant behavior because I didn't have the guts to leave her and I wanted her to do it. Of course, he uses more subtle wording. I can't say that I buy it yet. He says I resist because being single again confronts me to my fear of women and sure, I'm no Casanova. Still, it's heavy stuff and I don't like how I feel I have to accept it or prove it with my resistance...

Co-dependent no more
The journey from abandonment to healing

It's interesting that you recommend Co-dependent no more. Is there something in my sitch that makes you think we were co-dependent? On the surface, at least, we were very independent. We'd take separate holidays, would see friends separately, could take care of the kids alone for weeks on end, etc. In fact, it's this distance that create an atmosphere of "partnership" that made my W say that there was no love and couple anymore. She wanted more connection.

Also, please make sure that you read for fun too. Don't let this crap consume you from the inside, by only feeding what is on your plate today.

I just finished reading Gone Girl!

I also want you to keep 5LL on your reading list down the road. The first time that I read it, was shortly after my bomb, and it read to me as a laundry list of how I F'ed up my marriage. The second time I read it, was down the road a few months, and it took on a whole different meaning for me.

Yes, I love re-reading a book later. It's often like a new one. And yes, T5LL read like a list of things I've done wrong...

Mach1: I like that you started commenting on my sitch. You bring a new perspective at the right time, just as I'm moving the focus back to me. Can I ask you if there's something in my sitch that attracted you?

[Train]

Mozza, someone may have mentioned it already - or perhaps you've already read it - but in addition to DR and 5LL, "His Needs, Her Needs" was a GAME-CHANGER for me and my M.

It's a great read for how to "affair-proof" a M.

Some of these books, when our spouses are wayward, are painful to read ... many times because, like you've pointed out, we'll kick ourselves for not knowing the information BEFORE it could be too late.

But these books have nuggets of gold that will make us better partners to our spouses - if/when our Ms are reconciled - or to another person down the road.

[Mach1]

Co-dependent no more
The journey from abandonment to healing

It's interesting that you recommend Co-dependent no more. Is there something in my sitch that makes you think we were co-dependent? On the surface, at least, we were very independent. We'd take separate holidays, would see friends separately, could take care of the kids alone for weeks on end, etc. In fact, it's this distance that create an atmosphere of "partnership" that made my W say that there was no love and couple anymore. She wanted more connection.

Well, I didn't say that you were...just that it was a good read...

So, how do YOU feel about it ?

Mach1: I like that you started commenting on my sitch. You bring a new perspective at the right time, just as I'm moving the focus back to me. Can I ask you if there's something in my sitch that attracted you?

You answered your own question ... ^^^

[jim0987]

Hi mozza,

Thanks for keeping checking in on me. I've not had much I can really add to yours as your getting much better input than I can offer.

I just wanted to say though that I have read a whole bunch of relationship type books since BD (like 30). And there is a lot of good stuff - but NMMNG was the one that had the biggest impact on me, it was disturbingly accurate in all but a couple of things. It might not resonate with you but I think you'll get a lot out if it.

[Vanilla]

Mozza, someone may have mentioned it already - or perhaps you've already read it - but in addition to DR and 5LL, "His Needs, Her Needs" was a GAME-CHANGER for me and my M.

It's a great read for how to "affair-proof" a M.

Some of these books, when our spouses are wayward, are painful to read ... many times because, like you've pointed out, we'll kick ourselves for not knowing the information BEFORE it could be too late.

But these books have nuggets of gold that will make us better partners to our spouses - if/when our Ms are reconciled - or to another person down the road.

I am going to be controversial (really V?), imho we can put in place all of the strategies we like to protect our M and it may make only a superficial difference. This is control, the idea that an M can be made bullet proof. MLCers and WAS do what they do, irrespective of all the strategies that LBS have. As part of a strategy, then train has his answer, it worked for him so recommended to try.

Of course if we are better SOs for ourselves that is good for us but I doubt much of it would make a difference in many sitches. This makes the LBS more burdened because if they had done X or Y then things would be different. I doubt it.

This is not pessimism but removes yet another burden from the LBS. Release.

V

[Train]

Train is a "her." Which means, Vanilla, you haven't read my story (or even my mere signature). Which also means you don't know what worked for me. Or why. Or how.

There's no magic bullet. And maybe I'm reading your post wrong, but to suggest I'm saying a LBS can make a bunch of superficial changes and "keep" his/her spouse is unfair. And it's a slap in my face considering the heavy-lifting I've done in my own life and in my M. It's also discouraging to suggest that NOTHING we do could change a particular outcome of our M. Of course it can! MWD: "It takes ONE to tango."

Read the book, Van. And maybe you, too, will understand.

I like "controversial." But let's try to be factual and knowledgable before attempting to throw someone's offerings and experiences under the bus.

Sorry, Mozza. I don't want to start drama here. But I stand by my suggestion to you and wish you the very best.

[MCS]

V,

I'll throw in a quick counterpoint.

I agree and see in my sitch that there probably was little I could do, this was inevitable at some point. However, I tell people about the similarities of people on the board here and came up with this assessment.....it's called 'divorce busting.' So, we all find our way here because 'WE' want to save our marriage and since it has the D word in the title, most sitchs are pretty dire by the time we get her.

W and I did a bible study called 'Saving your marriage before it starts' prior to getting married (I may have happened to pack that book with all her books when I was helping her pack the house;) ) So, same thing, got there by the title

Anyway, so the demographic here is people trying to 'control' the outcome. Once we get here, we see that the real progress is internally and letting go is the toughest thing, so we are going to find comfort in self growth books and all.

However, I agree it's not going to prevent some sitchs. It's like Drivers Ed., it doesn't prevent you from getting into an accident; but it does help give you the tools to maybe avoid some.

[MCS]

Train,

I got a different meaning from V's post. I think what V was trying to say is that LBS can spend a lifetime trying to figure out what "they" did wrong in the marriage and V was just saying that sometimes reading these books holds us in those spots. I can tell you V is one of the best here when it comes to personal growth for this or her next relationship and looking within herself to see what can change to make her a better person.

[Train]

Perhaps.

I read the words "controversial" and "control" and got something entirely different from it, MCS.

Speaks for how we all see and speak things differently, I suppose. Which just reenforces my book recommendation. And, strangely, that was ALL it was ...

[Mozza]

Ghandi (1982) - A few quick DB notes

I chose to watch Ghandi in search of a role model. We've heard around here of James Bond, Rhett Butler and Clint Eastwood (we're short on women, right?). I wanted someone who's attitude and strength would inspire me. Ghandi is likely the most well-known human in history, given that he had such an impact in Asia where a majority of the world population lives, but also changed British Empire on which the sun never sets.

Gandhi was a man of tremendous internal strength, marching to his own drum, who never took the easy road to achieve impossible goals. He is a supreme example of the Stockdale paradox: in the face of adversity and terrible odds, he never wavered and took relevant action to achieve his goals. His stubbornness is out of this world, often throwing off his adversaries and allies alike. He displays such self confidence and moral clarity, along with clarity of thought and speech, that people around him are compelled to listen and be convinced. It might be the script, but Gandhi appears as a man of few, precise words, projecting confidence and leaving the audience with much to think about.

But the most DB aspect of his life is his setting of boundaries. Along with nonviolence, it seems to be at the center of his teachings. He simply states that certain things are unacceptable to him and his peers and that they won't abide by it. When the British impose a rule to force Indians in South Africa to be fingerprinted, he refuses to fight back, he simply states that no Indian should accept to be fingerprinted. He won by stating his boundaries and staying calm in the face of provocation, going to great lengths to keep his allies in line.

[Mach1]

Be the change, that you want to see...Gandhi

One of my favorite quotes of all time, and a mantra that helped me see MY role in the world...

[Mozza]

Thanks Mach1. Here's a top 5 of inspiring quotes by Gandhi for people going through a trial like ours.
_________________

The weak can never forgive. Forgiveness is the attribute of the strong.

Strength does not come from physical capacity. It comes from an indomitable will.

Action expresses priorities.

Nobody can hurt me without my permission.

We should meet abuse by forbearance. Human nature is so constituted that if we take absolutely no notice of anger or abuse, the person indulging in it will soon weary of it and stop.

[Mach1]

So...

Which of those would best describe how YOU wanna live your life ???

[Mozza]

Action expresses priorities.

This has been one of the biggest awakenings in my sitch. I'm a talker and I tend to make promises, to describe myself a certain way, etc. Now I make a conscious effort and just do, letting others find out who I am. It's not just with my WAW, but with my friends, colleagues, family, etc. It feels like a change that has already happened in me, notwithstanding my M status.

[Vanilla]

Train is a "her." Which means, Vanilla, you haven't read my story (or even my mere signature). Which also means you don't know what worked for me. Or why. Or how.

I apologise if I offended you that was not my intent. But I would point out that there was no male/female comment in my post. It was written neutrally. But I note I did say him for which I apogise that was an inadvertent slip. I did change Wonka's sex at one point too. So this is a slip I have made before which I need to watch.

There's no magic bullet. And maybe I'm reading your post wrong, but to suggest I'm saying a LBS can make a bunch of superficial changes and "keep" his/her spouse is unfair.
In fact I am saying the exact opposite of this. Some superficial changes may make a difference but in general superficial is in my opinion not enough change to have a great impact.


And it's a slap in my face considering the heavy-lifting I've done in my own life and in my M.

I have made no comment about you or your M in my post other than to acknowledge this book worked for you nor was I intending to.

It's also discouraging to suggest that NOTHING we do could change a particular outcome of our M. Of course it can! MWD: "It takes ONE to tango."

That is not what I am saying either.

Read the book, Van.

I have read the book, I own a copy of it


And maybe you, too, will understand.

I did not find the book as helpful as you apparently have. This is a valid view. If you found the strategies useful that is very good, but for me some of the content missed the mark.

I like "controversial." But let's try to be factual and knowledgable before attempting to throw someone's offerings and experiences under the bus.

With due respect presenting a different view says nothing about your offering or experience. A different view is merely that a different view, it does not devalue another person merely because a view is different from another's. No offence to you was intended at all, and I believe I come from a good place in this. Just because I disagree with your view does not mean that I devalue you. My post does not discuss you as the person and I am discussing the book.

Sorry, Mozza. I don't want to start drama here. But I stand by my suggestion to you and wish you the very best.

Your view is as valid as mine, just different.

It was not my intention to offend you, just as your post is not (I hope) intending to offend me or diminish my different view. I feel that I have a right to take a different stance and to say so.

Vanilla

[Vanilla]

Train,

I got a different meaning from V's post. I think what V was trying to say is that LBS can spend a lifetime trying to figure out what "they" did wrong in the marriage and V was just saying that sometimes reading these books holds us in those spots. I can tell you V is one of the best here when it comes to personal growth for this or her next relationship and looking within herself to see what can change to make her a better person.

You have explained it better than I can. Thank you MCS.

Vanilla

[Vanilla]

Mza

Ghandi is one of my role models for life, I admire Nelson Mandela and our own peace broker Mo Molem who despite having and dying of terminal cancer was a main architect of the peace in northern Ireland.

I had the great privilege of being in the vacinity of the last two of these as they travelled through their lives (albeit briefly) and both had enormous presence and peace about them.

Vanilla

[Mozza]

I've stayed quiet and tried to focus on my resolve, but it's not been easy.

I called a lawyer. I already got some clarifications. I chose to mention my hope of reconciliation, as I see it as something my "agent" should know. She was obviously trying to handle me gently and said that there are steps in accepting a D, starting with hopes of reconciliation, then anger and finally mourning the R. I asked her if she's seen reconciliations and she said only 3-4 times in 26 years of practice.

My WAW just asked me to book 10 days with the kids in July, for a vacation. They'll go abroad, to a wedding in OM's family. It hurts because we've been to weddings over there together and we have a wonderful family pic from it. Now I just see how she'll be with OM -- her parents will also meet them over there -- and living the life that was mine so recently. And the destination itself is just wonderful, with beautiful beaches.

I was crying on the shower today and saying out loud: "Wake up! Wake up!" Usually, it is directed at my WAW but today, for the first time, it was directed at me. My M is dead and I've such a hard time accepting it.

[Georgia Bulldogs]

Why are you "booking" this vacation and paying for it????

[Wet]

... I was crying on the shower today and saying out loud: "Wake up! Wake up!" Usually, it is directed at my WAW but today, for the first time, it was directed at me. My M is dead and I've such a hard time accepting it.

Hi Mozza, Your marriage is not dead until you say it is. You may not have a relationship right now but with the work that you are doing on yourself, using DB, continue keeping the focus on yourself and not the relationship, or what WAW is doing. Easier said than done.

I am sorry that you have to go thru your WAW scheduling a vacation with the OM. I get the crying in the shower thing. What can you do that will let you spoil yourself? Tell us something that might be fun to do just for you.

[Card29]

Mozza, those are totally normal feelings. It feels like you will never get past it. You will. You are very strong and going through even worse than I went through. I had the benefit of ignorance until WAW's A was over. I would have been just as crushed (or worse) before I had my lightswitch moment. But you know what, after I made it through everything, after I mourned our M, I was *not* crushed by the news of her A. Yes, it probably helped a little knowing that it was already over. But it would not have crushed me completely to know it was still going on. That is true detachment. There are efforts, of course, that you can make to help you towards detachment. But the most important ingredient is time. Keep trying to GAL, give it time, and you will be there (hopefully in the near future, too!).

At that point, you can look at your WAW's trip as HER life while you are excited about things in your OWN life. It's hard for you to believe in or empathize with this sentiment right now, but OM is not taking YOUR life. There was a time when your life was with WAW, traveling with her, seeing her family. That time is over. But your life is not over. This is the dawn of the next chapter in your life. It could end up being with WAW. It could be with a new woman, and her family, and trips/activities/conversations/interests with her. It could be as a single man, with a group of friends and your awesome children. It could be a new hobby. It could be a new job or career that you are a year or two away from discovering. If you follow DB and the advice here, it may or may not be with WAW, but it WILL be something that you will eventually be thankful for.

In the meantime, we're here, buddy! Find a good shoulder to cry on. Anyone you trust besides your children, of course. For me, it was an aunt.

[Karma12]

Mozza

Try not to focus too much on what your W is doing with the OM. Our imaginations can be ten times worst than what is really happening. I thought my H was happy and life was great with is OW. In fact the fantasy relationship soon became a nightmare. He was so stressed he was having anxiety attacks.

The M may be dead for now. Who knows what the future holds. All you can do is focus on you and your kids. Plan your own holiday. Create new memories.

Take it one day at a time.

[MCS]

Mozza,

Yeah, this is horrible. My D4 keeps asking about going back to Disney World because one of her friends is going soon. We went as a family this past June and had a great time. Every time she says it, I think back to that time and realize how good my life seemed then but how crazy it was about to get. It stinks.

As you saw, one thing that helped me is coming to the realization that I don't want W back as she is right now. I still love her, but in order to protect myself; I needed to look at her for what she has done and stop explaining away all of the decisions she made. Of course, that put me on a couple weeks of anger, but now I see myself more detached and not caring what's going on as much as I was.

[Vanilla]

Mza

June is a lifetime away. If you know the dates then plan something fabulous for Mza at that time. A challenge or trip perhaps.

Your L said that she had few memories of reconciliation. Well how many DBers in there? None I will bet. Each one of us here has the support and experience of fabulous friends to have the best chances of R. To stand, to work on ourselves and to GAL., to grow we encourage each other.

Besides, it is like asking a doctor how many sick patients he has!

Hugs to Mza.
V

[Mozza]

I want to give you all a group hug.

This was a lonely day for me as my parents were not available to talk. I call them sometimes 2-3 hours in a day - we'd almost never talk before BD, so that's a gain. I decided to come here and share today's difficulties and you rallied. I'm very, very grateful you're there. I'm touched by your intentions and kind words.

To get better, what I need for now is to recognize that my M is dead. Yes, it may be reborn down the road. You know me, I'm an optimist. But now, this hope is my focus and is keeping me from focusing on myself, where my attention should be. Make no mistake: I keep DBing, but closer to the spirit of saving myself first.

I was talking to a friend about how to detach and he observed that the first step is to want to detach. I agree that I feel tremendous resistance in my heart and mind to even wanting to detach. Yet, I know it's a pleasant feeling. And I need to realize that detaching is not giving up, it,s not closing the door. It's acknowledging the reality and doing my best with the rest of my life. I want to take more steps towards at least wanting to detach, so suggestions are welcome.

I finally talked to my parents tonight and I made clear to them that I wanted to enter the acceptance phase, that I no longer want to analyze every move and word from my WAW to guess if she's having regrets. They agreed, which was hardest for my mom who really thinks (and wants?) that WAW will return. But this is a big step for me because our conversation have an influence on my thinking and mood.

---------------
GAL of the day: Played badminton in the evening. It's not much and I was not in the brightest of moods, but I did it and I'm glad. I also had a chat with a friend who's moving in my city in a few months. This will be good. Tomorrow, I'm having dinner with a close friend. I'll try to buy a pair of ice skates for D6. I'm also talking to a second lawyer... Hang in there, PMA!

[Karma12]

Good for you Mozza. You are doing what it takes to heal. I too am an optimist! Live, dream discover!

Read my thread. This MLC crap...it's one thing to hurt us...but the poor kids. Grrrr

[Sotto]

Hi Mozza

I haven't posted much on your sitch, but I do often read about what you are up to....and I have so much admiration for you. You're irreppressible - like the duracell bunny! You work so hard at it all - and keep you keep plugging away at things.

A colleague once said to me that my gravestone will say - "God, but she tried!" And I think the same is true of you my friend. With all of the work you are doing, you will get there I'm sure. Not sure where "there" is for any of us. But I know it is a good place :-)

[Mozza]

Thanks a lot, Toots, for your very kind words. In case it can help others, let me explain in a nutshell where this energy comes from.

First, it seems to me that our nature defaults to pessimism and that to be realistic, one has to counterbalance with a dose of optimism. Just look around here: anyone who suffers a setback immediately says "it's over!" Or they will list the multiple reasons why it can't work out: W said she's done, she found someone, she moved out, she moved away, she cut off contacts, etc. Yet, all these things are also found in successful reconciliations. And there are multiple reasons why it can work out: she's still in touch, she broke up with OM, they have kids, things were good before OM, etc. But they don't list them. In any case, I have reached or I'm nearing the point where I realize that it's useless to make these assessments: I've no control over it and it doesn't change what I have to do, which is to work on myself.

Second, another shortcoming of our brains seems to be that we can hardly cope with uncertainty. It plays out strongly in situations like ours. I mentioned it earlier, but it's like the patient who says "I'd rather know today that I have cancer than wait another day for the test results!" Of course, this makes no sense. As the vets keep repeating, a normal sitch takes 9 to 24 months and gets really bad before it gets better. I'm four months into it. Let's not panic, let's enjoy the gift of time. To me, that's the "Be patient" mantra of DB. As I quoted Gandhi above: Strength does not come from physical capacity. It comes from an indomitable will. It seems that anyone who has accomplished anything worthwhile has shown such indomitable will, so let's do it.

Finally, there's a reason that touches upon what you said: we will get there. Right now, reconciliation is the only positive outcome that my heart will accept. But I also know that as time passes by, my outlook evolves. Already, the shock is receding and I have moments of peace. They will become more common. I won't be in that state of shock for the next 40 years. In the near future (I don't like to think in timelines anymore), either my WAW will come back or I will reach a new place where I will be happy again. I will not become that person, mentioned somewhere here, who cries in the driveway of his ex 12 years later. Even better: this sitch has opened the likelihood that I will experience romantic passion once again in my life, be it through reconciliation or a new R with a new person. That's also a gift.

One more thing: when I feel defeated, I try not to write too much about it because I don't want to "preserve" it. I don't want a passing feeling to taint the next few hours or day or weeks. When I feel good, I talk about it and refer to it later as evidence that I can reach this place.

I understand very well how people can feel defeated or distressed. I experience it too. I'm only sharing my ways to cope with this right now knowing that in the end, we will survive this and be happy again.

[Zelda09]

Thanks, Mozza. I follow you a bit and find your words and philosophy here comforting. I'm just starting to get glimpses of the hope and brightness that has everything to do with my future, whether or not H chooses he wants to be part of it.

[stacey9]

Thank you for that Mozza, I find it so helpful. I always read your posts as you offer such good advice to everybody here.
Take care

[Mozza]

I spoke to a second lawyer just now. She immediately recommended mediation because we are cordial, in agreement on most things and have little to fight over at this point (I hope!). I mentioned to her that, despite the circumstances, there's hope of reconciliation on my side. She said that all it changes is that if the mediator senses that there are chances of reconciliation, she might recommend steps that would lead us to this, such as counseling.

So my question is: How can I, if at all, send the signal to the mediator that I'm interested in reconciliation, without failing at DB by telling the same thing to my WAW?

[Faith2b]

Wow thats a great question. Well I guess you cant conceal feelings. I have learned that being vulnerable through this experience has been very helpful to me and my sitch. I feel like it may be a fine line because you dont want to come off like the Sandi's 37. But I feel their is some value to being able to stay true to what you want. Being a man of purpose in different areas in your life to me makes sense that you would want to keep your marriage. Yes I know you love her yes I know that things seem very bleek but I believe that being the man to keep his marriage strong even after such a trajedy shows your strength. I think you would be a fool to not stand up for your marriage. This of course can be said in many ways without saying.

Just try and keep looking from a different perspective. Pretend like you have Mivchelle Weiner beside you!! How would you feel coming into the meeting with her beside you?


I hope this is helpful

[MCS]

Yeah you know I had a problem with this. But I would think something like Wife I will support you in that decision that you've made or something like that may give a little bit of indication that it's not a two-way street as far as divorce is concerned.

[Karma12]

I think that at this point a mediator is not going to be able to guide your wife to counseling. Sometimes the divorce takes all the pressure off and with some time and distance the WAS is then able to reflect back. You will always be connected through your children so who knows what the future will hold. I don't think there is anything wrong with letting a mediator know a divorce was not your choice but you won't stand in the way of it.

[Vanilla]

Mza

Your attitude, tone and actions will say it for you. It will leak from every pore in your body, your body language, alertness eye contact and appropriate nodding.

Your attentiveness to W, your strength, detatchment and willingness to validate.

Oh and the look of love, your willingness if W is no longer A. Your concern for your children and that you want them to be with M and D. If a D is inevitable, you will with regret work to the best possible position to co parent your children, who come first.

Would that be better than words?

V

[Mozza]

Thanks Karma12, Vanilla, Faith2B and MCS. I've come to the conclusion that there is nothing to say. There will certainly be an opportunity to show, through my attitude and behavior as Vanilla said, that this is not my decision. My WAW will have to say the words and show the will to make that happen and I will offer no resistance.

------

This week's podcast by This American Life is about... reconciliation! It's called "Reunited (and it feels so good)".

Stories about getting back together with your spouse, your country, your...Brahman bull. And how it never goes the way you think it's going to.

It was quite a shock for me, a fan of the show, to see this topic pop up because I've been hoping for, oh about four months, that they would cover it. The first story is about marriage reconciliation:

The story of an Iranian couple who were unhappily married for 27 years. He had a temper. She never really loved him. So they split up, got divorced. And then, two years after that, to everybody's surprise—especially their grown-up children—they fell in love and married each other again. And this time, everything was different. One of their daughters, Nazanin Rafsanjani, tells the story. (26 minutes)

It's both a very unique story and one that will be very familiar to all of us. I hope many will get to listen to it.

[Card29]

Listening to it now. It is astounding how similar they are, even from such a different culture. Even the WAW's initial period of freedom and happiness, and the LBH's turn towards self-help relationship books.

[sandi2]

So my question is: How can I, if at all, send the signal to the mediator that I'm interested in reconciliation, without failing at DB by telling the same thing to my WAW?

Why do you see it as failing at DB if you don't tell your WAW (again) that you still want to R?

[dingo]

What is the benefit of the mediator recommending counseling?

[Vanilla]

Loved the link, very interesting discussion.
Glad the couple got together and such a waste of years of loving.

Someone will make a movie of it!

V

[Mozza]

Why do you see it as failing at DB if you don't tell your WAW (again) that you still want to R?

Because it would be pursuing? Also, I'm repeatedly told here that I shouldn't do it. I reason that she's not receptive anyway as OM just moved in and she's asked to start the D proceedings. I have the gift of time. Finally, as I said above, and Vanilla suggested, it will be obvious from my behavior with the mediator. If he asks why we're D, I will let WAW answer for instance.

I also saw this on Gogofo's thread .

She said to drag out the D process as much as possible, time is on my side.

I wonder if I should do the same. When WAW offered to start, she said she didn't mind if I preferred to wait. I said I'd check a few things and get back to her. I was told here to go along with her schedule and a friend who has a good DB instinct told me that I should drive the whole thing t show her I was moving on with force. But I feel it would be better to wait a few months so that either the A plays out or at least I'm at a more comfortable place to negotiate the settlement. I also would prefer reality to hit her after the high of her A has dissipated a little.

I'm not sure why I still have the reputation of having told my WAW that I want to reconcile. I mention here my desire to do so, but to hear I never do. I told her when she left (Sept 20) and then the closest thing was two weeks ago when I said I'd rather not meet with her because I need to move on. I'm not sure which way it cuts. In fact, I have several observers who are puzzled as to why I cut communications, never send a signal that I want to reconcile, ok the D proceedings, etc. I don't want to send anyone down my 8 threads, but I really wonder why people think I've told her several times.

[LisaB]

Hi Mozza., maybe what they mean is that she knows you want to r not because you told her but because of the facts of the situation. She left. She assumes you didn't want her to. Etc. We discussed this before. But of course I don't know what people mean. Just guessing.

I love This American Life. Going to listen now! Thanks for the tip!

Hugs!

[Vanilla]

Mza

Your W will have her own reasons for the speed she wants to move. You have yours, if you want D, take action yourself, if you want M or a chance to stay M then let W take her own action. My stance would be W, we have children they need us both, D is not my choice for us or our children but I will not get in your way.

This is way too important to play a complicated hand.

What does Mza really want?

V

[sandi2]

Moza, if you don't want to take the lead in D proceedings, then don't. You should not do it as a tactic to get your W to change her mind at the last minute. The only reason you would pursue a D is b/c it is what you want for yourself. If that is what would be better for you, then do it.

It seems obvious that you don't really want to do this. Are you trying to force yourself to turn loose? You beat yourself up b/c you told the mediator you still want to R........and then think you fail at DB if you don't tell your W. (Like she doesn't know.). I am getting a little dizzy.

[TLEE86]

Echoing what sandi said...if you don't want a D, don't file...from day one, I've felt you really don't want a D, and really love your W and have hopes and really want to reconcile..ask yourself why are you thinking of filing. For you? Or to try and control the situation and force W into a decision, whatever that may be.

[Sotto]

Hi Mozza, I'll chime in here and echo what everyone else has said. I think you shouldn't file for D unless you are truly, truly done. I have an image in my mind here of Starsky moving his lawn, tears streaming down his face knowing that he was truly done. That may not be the best example, as I know Starsky had filed earlier, and then he and the fetching Mrs S reconciled. But it has stayed in my mind of what feeling 'truly done' feels like. I'm a ways from being there yet, and from your posts, it doesn't sound as though you are there either.

I would go for the 'this isn't what I want, but if it is what you want I respect your wishes and won't stand in your way' stance. Then don't enable a D at all, work with the longest timescales you can, without obstructing and see how things unfold.

Toots x

[gan]

I've been going back over your posts, Mozza, to figure out where you were thinking you might file. I couldn't find it. Did you say that?? If you are thinking along those lines then I just wanted to remind you of this little conversation:

Which of those would best describe how YOU wanna live your life ???

Action expresses priorities.

This has been one of the biggest awakenings in my sitch. I'm a talker and I tend to make promises, to describe myself a certain way, etc. Now I make a conscious effort and just do, letting others find out who I am. It's not just with my WAW, but with my friends, colleagues, family, etc. It feels like a change that has already happened in me, notwithstanding my M status.

Would filing be in keeping with this view of who you want to be? Doesn't seem like it from what I hear in your posts.

[Vanilla]

Mza

Interested to hear your thoughts and musings

V

[Mozza]

Thanks to all of you for your great input. I've read all of it several times.

Some clarifications. I've no intention of filing myself. I think the confusion comes from the friend's recommendation that I take control of the process, to show WAW that I'm really moving on. And it goes without saying that I don't want to D and that I still love my WAW too much for my own good. Finally, I haven't spoken to a mediator yet, just a couple of lawyers who could represent me if need be.

Here's what I intend to do. I will reply to her message that after making some verifications, I'd rather we wait a few more months before starting the procedures, unless she has a reason to get started now. There's no real benefit to do things right now as the D cannot be official before October. What I wish to say but won't is that the law has a 1-year delay so that cooler minds prevail.

My preference would be that we wait until October to even get started, but I suppose from her immediate request that she won't wait that long. Also, I'm a bit concerned that postponing any of this will keep me hoping too much, or even that it will prevent the M from dying so that the R can be reborn (as Karma12 suggested).

What do you think?

------------------
GAL Report: Had D6 and D3 for the week-end and escaped the city to go to a chalet with friends with kids the same age. We went snow tubing on Saturday, sledding and skating on Sunday. A great fun was had by all and we built lasting memories. When I picked up D6 on Friday she said how much she was happy to see me and one of the things she mentioned was that we do so many things together.

The dark spot is 3 hours of anxiety-induced insomnia from Saturday to Sunday, thinking about my WAW. I've been meaning to take her to such a place for years and I missed her greatly. D6 even caught me on the verge of tears at the snow tubing (didn't realize she was there) and asked if I was sad. I composed myself immediately and said "No, I'm fine".

My resolution is to be more active than usual this week to forget the pain and generally be in a good mood because I feel good about myself. I want to go to bed earlier too. I did all of this last night and now I want to get Monday morning right.

[Karma12]

Hi Mozza!

You are building great memories with you kids. Mine are adults now and they love to reminisce about fun things we did while they were growing up. It's ok to let your D. Know you had a sad moment but are ok now. Girls especially are very intuitive they know when you are sad. It's good to show them IMO that boys have feelings too! Lol

Thanks for stopping by my thread. I appreciate your advice and support. You are right and I do feel like I am moving in a new direction towards D. It feels like enough is enough you know what I mean? Some days are better than others. Today it is Sunny and mild outside. I'm going to go for a run and then head to Hot Yoga.

[Mozza]

WAW told me that she's looking for a new job. It's relevant in our sitch because, as you probably all remember, she was unemployed for over a year while I paid all expenses and supported her in other ways while she was going through this career reorientation. It took her a month after she found the job to run off with a new colleague. They now live and work together, so they see each other 24/7. Since she left me, about her only friends left are her colleagues because she's an immigrant here. They are young (late 20s) and free and she adopted that lifestyle when she left me.

When she started this job, it was the greatest thing in the world and a few weeks later (after she left me), it started to go downhill. She used to keep me abreast of the developments, but I've shut that down too. In any case, this is also a pattern with her (fantastic in the beginning, leaves job hating it) that I've observed some 5 times over the last 9 years. No self-awareness in any of these. Each time is THE right one.

She's not telling me more than that, saying that she'll give me the details once we meet.* As you may also recall, she's sorta keen for us to meet, but I turned her down saying I needed it to move on. Of course, I'd like to know the details, but I'm not taking the bait. Also, I have a bit of a savior syndrome when it comes to her job-seeking (I revised her written test to get into the current job...) and I'm afraid she'd tap into it.

*She did email me more details a little later, explaining that it was her own choice because the place doesn't treat their staff right.

-----------------
GAL Report I had a very productive day yesterday, which is unusual for a Monday and made me feel great. I got in touch with several clients, which is what I should be doing more regularly. I went to bed early by my standards and had a fairly good night. I've decided to take better care of myself, to be more disciplined and see how that affects my mood. Most of January was pretty bad and I feel it made me more vulnerable.

[Maybell]

WRT discipline: My boss has a point system for client outreach that she uses to make sure she's staying on top of her growth goals. Activities have different point values based on their impact on growth/new client acquisition. If she makes her point goal at the end of each week she/we get a reward on Friday. So far, so good (rewards are small but morale-boosting). It's kind of like Vanilla's GAL scoring system.

Good job!

[Mozza]

I have to respond to her suggestion that we start the D proceedings.

As discussed above, I'm not ready. Emotionally, I'm too vulnerable and it's awfully difficult for me to look into D information. This being said, I'll get over it if it's necessary. Also, I feel that this is rushed and that we need to cool down for a longer period. The D can't be official until October 2015 anyway. Of course, I hope that her A will fail in the meantime. It's been only 4 or 5 months for them, so the next 6 could be crucial.

She asked me two weeks ago and I said I'd be checking a few things. I called lawyers and did some online research to understand the process and my rights. Today, she emailed me about the insurance* and asked for an update on the D paperwork. So here's what I want to respond.

So I've check and there's no rush to get started. I'd rather that we wait a few more months, get closer to the earliest date. Is that ok?

What do you guys think? I'd like to send it today, since she asked for an update and it's been two weeks I've asked for some time to do research.

--------------
* A quick note about the insurance. For 8 years, we've been on my insurance and I've paid hundreds of dollars every month to cover the entire family, never asking her for a cent even though she worked. I paid the out-of-pocket expenses for the two births, which were thousands of dollars. Now, she's paying a few tens of dollars monthly and she's asking me to pay my share and that of the kids. I understand that she's tight financially and I will go along with it because our circumstances have changed. It just reminds me that trying to make everything "fair" can make things really complicated... D [censored].

[Calibri]

I would remove the "is that ok" part from the email. You don't need to ask her permission. If you don't want to move forward yet, just say I'd rather wait a few more months.

Just my .02.

[sandi2]

Why are you so determined to tell her this is not what you want? Has it worked in the past? If you are not ready to pursue with D papers and you feel rushed about it.....why are you doing it?

How do you see her reacting to that message? "Oh what a relief! I was so afraid he would really go through with a D. But guess what, he doesn't want a D, after all. I was so mistaken, b/c I thought he did!" Not likely. Stop trying to fix this with yet another message, hoping it will change her mind.

[Mozza]

Thanks sandi2. I'm not sure I understand though.

She wrote me, two weeks ago, asking if I was ready to start the D papers, saying she could wait if I'm not. So now I have to respond anyway. She reminded me today.

I explained above why I'm not ready — not detached and some hope that the A will end in the meantime. Now, if you and others here feel that it would be better to just go with her schedule, then let's do it. I can control myself.

Are you saying I should not delay or that I should phrase my desire to delay differently?

The reaction I expect is: "OK, maybe he doesn't want to D after all. Fine, I can wait." Then we go on with our lives and in a few months she realizes that she made a mistake and wants to work on the M. So I hope that time will change her mind, not the message.

Don't shoot me, I'm just being honest!

[Mozza]

WAW just unpinned the grenade.

She wrote me a long email telling me that she's thinking of going back to her country because her work sux and she hates the weather here. A few selected sentences.

Things haven't been so good recently. Work is very stressful and I see little chances of improvement. [then she lists all that is wrong at work]

It turns out that the social network for which we came here was really your network. I feel isolated, far from my parents while I get though this crisis and my friends are far away. [then she lists the limited social contacts she has]

And the weather... it's horrible! [more about how she's affected]

I can't imagine staying here for years in this situation - far from my family, my support. [she mentions her parents are getting old and never see the kids]

I don't know what to do about all of this. (...) [This city] was our joint life project, but without our joint life, I hardly see myself having the energy and will to adapt. Also, all the other events that happened between our arrival in 2013 and now. [I don't know what this cryptic sentence refers to. OM?]

We've always known that we'd have to negociate our lives around the fact that we come from different countries. The separation makes this discussion even more crucial. (...) We have the advantage of being in good terms and cordial, so let's try to talk.

I don't know yet what to think exactly of this email, but it's a turning point. It's what I didn't want to hear for several more years. Our international M and now D was a ticking bomb. We just moved here, to great cost. Obviously, I don't want to move away to her country, where she only has her parents and a couple of friends (no large network). Over there, I have nobody outside of her.

I'm sure you'll tell me not to mind read, but I will share what immediately went through my mind.

- Things really aren't as good as they appear from the outside.
- The high has worn off quickly. Even the love high doesn't seem to offset the downs of the job, isolation and weather.
- There are no mentions of OM in this, I presume because it is a taboo between us. Perhaps it's embedded in the cryptic sentence.
- It's typical of her to run away from her problem. A pattern through her entire life as far as I can tell. Not resolved.
- I don't know if it's only bad news. Could she be reconsidering?

My plan now is to respond to her email, validate that things must be hard the way she describes them and then accept to meet with her, likely next week. I'll do that within the next few hours. She wrote 3 hours ago, but I just saw the email.

[sandi2]

Are you saying I should not delay or that I should phrase my desire to delay differently?

No, that's not what I'm saying. I didn't understand why you were pushing through the D and saying it wasn't what you wanted. Just forget that for the moment. You need to respond to her latest news. Contact her and agree on a time & place to meet so that you two can talk face to face.

Please do not have expectations! You are already wondering if she may be reconsidering D. You have to meet with her having no expectations. For all you know, OM is moving to her country. I really doubt it, but you never know. I suspect her fantasy world is crumbling and she wants to go home to her parents.

You need to write down questions to ask or things to talk about with her......like what are her intentions about the children! Did she not even mention them? How does she plan to finance this trip back, etc.

Anyway, it's a good idea to write some notes before you talk to her, b/c you'll probably be as nervous as a cat in a rocking chair factory.

I'm sure she will ask about the D paperwork, so just tell her what they said. You don't have to express your desire about not having it done right now. Wait and see how she responds. She knows you don't want the D, so don't volunteer to tell her again. That was what I was trying to say in the last post.

And "if" she is having second thoughts about it, I have a feeling she may let you know when she meets up with you. But Mozza, don't get into a conversation with her before you have time to think about it.

[jim0987]

Hi Mozza,

that must be quite something to recieve. How do you feel about the email? (rather than think)

Dont be in too much of a rush to reply. A considered response tomorrow is probably better than a rushed response tonight/today

if you do feel you should reply today then something short and validating that buys you time might be the best bet.

Something like (better scripters please improve)
'Thank you for taking the time to write this and share your feelings in this way. I sorry to hear that you are feeling this way.

I appreciate that you would like me to respond quickly but so that i can fully take in what you've said i just want to take a little bit of time to compose my thoughts. I hope you understand.

I'll respond more fully tomorrow but I wanted to let you know that I've seen this.

Take Care

Mozza'


Needs some work but it gives you some headroom without feeling pressured to deal with all of the email straight away. prepare the elephant as it were

[Wonka]

Mozza,

I'd suggest that you sit on the email for a while and respond later. It is not an emergency. When you do respond, keep it to ONE single paragraph using the STFU and KISS principles.

Oh and post your draft response here first so we can help you to ensure that it is in line with DBing principles.

The email is just a reflection of W's own inner unhappiness that is no reflection on you at all. All of this is ON HER. Hers to own alone.

[Sotto]

Hi Mozza - just a practical thought too. Can she actually leave with the kids without your 'approval?' (I'm not for a moment suggesting she would - just asking the question.)

My H and his XW are both from North America, but live in the UK. Neither are allowed to take SS abroad without permission from the other. When we travelled with him, we always needed a signed letter from his Mum. But that was agreed as part of the D arrangements I presume. It may be you need to consult a L on this area at some point.

[Mozza]

Hi Mozza - just a practical thought too. Can she actually leave with the kids without your 'approval?' (I'm not for a moment suggesting she would - just asking the question.)

She can't. We have shared custody. For her to take her away, she'd need the exclusive custody of the kids, which would be granted by a judge. This being said, I will gather more legal info, especially as she's going over there in July, with the kids. I want to make sure they have to come back, and what I can do if they don't.

[Mozza]

Thanks Wonka. Yes, I will certainly post my response here. I plan to simply validate and agree to meet. Thanks for your offer.

The email is just a reflection of W's own inner unhappiness that is no reflection on you at all. All of this is ON HER. Hers to own alone.

I agree. Her defense mechanism (flight) is in full force again and she blames everything around here for her unhappiness. Now it's work (she's done that before), the weather and her lack of social network. These are all big challenges, I agree, but her flight reaction is not the only possible response.

[Mozza]

that must be quite something to recieve. How do you feel about the email? (rather than think)

Panicky is probably the best descriptor of my initial reaction. I feared that moment since our first kiss. What if we have kids and then split? This is not exactly THE moment (where she moves), but it's one step closer.

The other feeling (and not rational thought) is hope. Silly hope. She's hitting the wall, already. Her fantasy world is crumbling. Life with OM is not good enough to offset these challenges. She's not openly reconsidering, but part of her has to realize that this is a consequence of her choice to S. At the same time, OM is practically from her country, so it can also be a joint project for them. He could be fed up of being here too, for the same reasons as her, especially as they work at the same place. No expectations, says my brain! (Yes, but... says my heart...)

Thanks for the write-up suggestion.

[Mozza]

Thanks sandi2. It's really nice to have your feedback at this crucial moment for me.

Please do not have expectations! You are already wondering if she may be reconsidering D. You have to meet with her having no expectations.

Thanks for the reminder to have no expectations. I know it's best even though it's hard. I don't want to be crushed by bad news (any other reason?). You might have to remind me again...

For all you know, OM is moving to her country. I really doubt it, but you never know. I suspect her fantasy world is crumbling and she wants to go home to her parents.

You're most likely right: her fantasy world is crumbling. And yes, she wants to go to her parents, whom she just saw in December. Her reaction, every time she goes, is to want to see more of them, to move there. But yes, OM could very well be moving with her because he's from the neighboring country. In fact, it's almost like they're from the same country.

You need to write down questions to ask or things to talk about with her......like what are her intentions about the children! Did she not even mention them? How does she plan to finance this trip back, etc.

Her mention of the kids is that they almost never see her parents. It's implied that she wants to move with them over there. As for the move, her parents will pay. They're not filthy rich, but quite well-off and a few $10K is nothing for them when it comes to their only child. They paid for the move this time, including a complete set of appliances and furniture.

Anyway, it's a good idea to write some notes before you talk to her, b/c you'll probably be as nervous as a cat in a rocking chair factory.

Haha! I really like this idea. I will share my notes and questions here.

I'm sure she will ask about the D paperwork, so just tell her what they said. You don't have to express your desire about not having it done right now. Wait and see how she responds. She knows you don't want the D, so don't volunteer to tell her again. That was what I was trying to say in the last post.

All I can say is that "we don't have to do it right now, but she knows that and already told me. She's asking me: can we do it right now anyway? So in a way, I can't avoid telling her about my preferences.

And "if" she is having second thoughts about it, I have a feeling she may let you know when she meets up with you. But Mozza, don't get into a conversation with her before you have time to think about it.

Any tip on how I can have this written on my hands without her seeing it? Can anyone tell me what is the "arc of R" starting from there? I mean that if I can see that certain steps will happen later, it will help me to be patient at this moment where I see a small window of opportunity.

By the way, in the episode of This American Life about the marriage reconciliation, the WAW called her H after 1 year to ask about his impending wedding. She wishes him well, hiding the fact that she wants to R because she thinks it's too late. It's him who takes the initiative to say that he will call it off if she wants to R. That's how the R started.

[Karma12]

Get some legal advice Mozza. She may want to move but that doesn't mean she gets to move the kids. They usually have it written in the separation of divorce agreement that neither parent can leave the country with the children without permission from the other parent. Even at the border they will ask you for a letter of consent. Be cautious if you think there is a chance she will try and take then illegally.

[Mozza]

So, I need to respond to her email... As requested, here's my draft for feedback.

Thanks for your message. I'm sorry to hear that you're going through these difficult times. Of course we can meet to talk. How do you want to go about it? Lunch next week?

When we meet, my plan is to listen and validate, to just to let her spin her wheels. She lives in the moment and can change her mind soon afterwards. See the godmother episode where I decided not to bring it up again and it never came back. This move is a much bigger issue, but the current moment is very rough for her. I can't imagine she thinks I'll be moving to her country so soon, years earlier than we had planned and now that we have separated. As she wrote me, we always knew we'd have to negotiate and compromise.

We had a short email exchange yesterday about kids' clothes. She wrote me a one-line response that I couldn't understand. She replied. "Sorry. Really drunk... Too much stress: bottle of wine with me." Again, she wasn't drinking before DB...

------------
The latest I'm feeling is a desire to save her. I want to hug her, to tell her I will listen. I've this savior syndrome with her. It's hard for me to think that she'll have some awakening by herself and realize that her issues are within her. She hasn't so far.

Much of what she complains about can be fixed without leaving. She can seek out new friends, she can make do with the weather like everyone here, she can live on her salary (average around here), her parents can come or invite her (they go on expensive 3-week holidays around the world twice a year), she can have a new attitude towards her job or seek another one here. It tells me, once again, that she hasn't changed one bit and is using the same old defense mechanisms that got her there (blame and flight). Part of me wants to tell her: "So, are you happier than you were before S?"

I also realize better that her outreach is not an attempt at R. Some may recall my baseball analogy for the WAS. They're a ball that's just been hit deep into the left field. They go up and up, looking like they'll never come down, but gravity still applies and they start to go down. Our role is to stay deep and wait for the ball to come within reach. See if it goes above the barrier or falls in our glove. Running towards the ball is useless. To me, this is the moment where the ball just passed its highest point and starts coming down. I need to stay put and let it come down.

[Mozza]

She just sent an update and it leans even more heavily towards moving back to her country. It's about the fact that D6 doesn't seem to connect with her maternal grandparents and that a friend of hers here is likely to move out, leaving her with almost no one here. Actually, this friend is my upstairs neighbor. I'm kind of worried that they hear me cry and report it to WAW.

But the clincher is that she asks me to reply to her saying that we need to have this open dialogue otherwise we'll need to get lawyers involved, which she'd rather not. I really don't like that comment.

I'd like to reply to her tonight or tomorrow morning. I'm tempted to go with:

Thanks for your message. I'm sorry to hear that you're going through these difficult times. Of course we can meet to talk. How do you want to go about it? Lunch next week?

(By the way, I didn't wait for the lawyer comment. I was just busy and thinking about your message.)

I hate the idea that she'll think she got me because she brought up lawyers. I wish I responded earlier.

[sandi2]

It looks okay to me. I don't think you need to hold off very long before sending it. She seems ready to push back, if she has to.

Keep your cool, Mozza.

[Karma12]

Really be careful Mozza. I wouldnt be agreeing to her leaving the country with the kids. I highly suggest getting legal advice.

You are still vunerable and she knows how to manipulate you.
Don't try and rescue her. Look out for yourself.

[Mozza]

She emailed me again.

Now she says she wants to review our 50/50 agreement on finances for the kids. She says she can't pay it this month. Two days before the deadline. It's about 15-20% of her salary to cover most of kids expenses (except food). She probably thinks that I make more than I actually do. I'm a freelancer and since the S, my productivity and income have decreased dramatically.

This means that our gentlemen's agreement will not stand much longer. We'll have to get stuff in writing, put out budgets on the table. Perhaps a separation agreement or a divorce altogether.

She firing from all guns now: moving away, divorce papers, finances. It might just be honest concerns. It might be that she's upset I reduced communications drastically in the last month. She's told me that life is not so good for her now. She might be looking for someone to blame.

I feel my sitch is slowly turning into that of HPoirot. My wife is pushing my buttons more than ever, things are not as rosy for her as she expected, she's finding ways to blame me for it, she's insistent on communications, she no longer respects our agreements. This happened in two weeks.

Keep cool, Mozza.

[Karma12]

Yes Mozzarella keep cool....but get your ducks in a row. Go seek legal advice. Know your rights. Protect yourself and your kids.

Now the party is not so fun and she may come looking you to bail her out or finance her. I believe in being fair but shenalsomhas to feel and deal with the choices she has made.

Now is the time to maintain your cool. Do not give her anything in writing or otherwise that she can hold against you.

For now you have to continue to detach and let her continue her journey. These are her life lessons. Good luck! Stay strong!

[jim0987]

Hi mozza. I sense you already know exactly what you need to do. It's tough anyway just know there's a bunch of people behind you here

Personally I think it's a phase/test that all WAS have to go through at least once - if things aren't as rosy as hoped it has to be because the LBS is making it so hard after all those LBS are so awful thats why they left. I think they have to go through this stage but I how they come out of it and what damage they do while they are in it are big variables.

You're doing good mozza.

[gan]

Hang in there Mozza. Have you read Crimson's story? Yours reminds me of his a little. See Crimson - rounding the bend.

[Mozza]

Thanks everyone. I much appreciate your time and feedback. I read all of it more than once and think a lot about your perspectives.

Karma12 | Yes, I will get legal advice. I'm already in touch with lawyers. Also, we've lived abroad so I'm familiar with the procedures for a single parent to leave with the kids, with the approval of the other parent. Also, she gave me the passports of the kids last week for another purpose. But I need to prepare for her July vacations abroad.

jim0987 | I also hope it's just a phase she has to go through. She's still keen on being on good terms, but she's also pulling the covers on her side. When she writes that she can't pay her half or that she can't imagine living her several more years... So, of course she wants to be on good terms because she wants something from me.

ganb8te | Thanks for the lead. I read Crimson's story some time ago and I just went to ask for an update. What is it that makes you associate his stitch to mine?

_________________

My WAW's moods have always been very changing. One week, we'd have the greatest M and she was so happy to have found me. The next, she couldn't understand why she had been unhappy for so long and we needed to fix that. I'm barely exaggerating. So I want to let this storm pass as much as I can. She's likely affected by the cold and minimum daylight, like she was when we were together. I don't know if she's back on her antidepressants that she stopped taking when she left me (she wanted to be "herself").

I want to shorten my response time to 24 hours. I feel it's just inflammatory with her and I don't see what I gain from it. I understand how it feels not to receive a response to an important email.

[Complex]

I'll pray your S won't get toxic. That must be very hard but why don't you consider legal separation? At this point you should put yourself on the safe side. But it's a big step even in a S.
Google for divorcesource...I found this site, it's very very helpful and has a very good approach on all questions around D that matches the DB ethics, plus Michelle's books are linked there.
Hope it helps.

[Mozza]

I've agreed to meet WAW on Tuesday for lunch.

She's been looking for multiple ways to meet me and now she's found it. It's fine with me. You know that deep down, that's what I want, even though I'm told it's no good for the sitch. I'm also very controlled and can behave in the right way, even if I feel different, as I've done before.

You need to write down questions to ask or things to talk about with her......like what are her intentions about the children! Did she not even mention them? How does she plan to finance this trip back, etc.

Anyway, it's a good idea to write some notes before you talk to her, b/c you'll probably be as nervous as a cat in a rocking chair factory.

Thanks for the idea, sandi2. My general take is that my WAW changes her mind regularly and sometimes I need to let things come and go without cementing any of it. That's what I did with the request to change a godmother and it worked well as she never brought it up again. In this case, I suspect a few more weeks, a change of job, and the idea will be off the table.

So to me, at issue is her attitude towards her challenges and her usual flight reaction. I do not want to hide it under some logistical problem because then if we resolve them, it implies that she/we can just move. Then the problems will start again. In fact, it's entirely plausible that if we were to move to her country, the problems would resume within 1-2 years and she'd want to move again (for instance, she doesn't get along that well with her parents, which she tends to forget when she's away). The kids and I can't follow her around for the next 15 years.

My plan is to listen to her and validate. I agree that all that she faces is difficult: she has less money, much less friends, her job environment is harsh, the weather is cold, etc. I disagree on the reaction however: no need to move abroad.

1. What has she done to address the problems she shared? (friends, money, job, weather)
2. What does she see me and the kids doing if she were to move to her country?
3. What would be the challenges of living in her country?
4. How does she suggest that we'll calculate a share of expenses other than 50/50?
5. Why does she want to start the D proceedings now, 8 months ahead of time?

I will not mention OM, although he's involved in each of these topics, as a boyfriend, coworker and roommate of hers.

Off to GAL!

[Karma12]

Sounds like you have your head on straight Mozza. I've heard so many horrible stories of one spouse running off with the kids. I could never fathome that. The children need both their parents.

[Karma12]

Mozza can you read my thread and give me some advice on a text. Thx!

[sandi2]

I'm not debating the questions you wrote down, but if I were in her shoes, I would probably think #1and # 3 were really none of your business. However, maybe I am not seeing it. I suppose in her case, it would depend on the mood she's in. Truthfully though, shouldn't you just ask about questions that directly affect the children and you?

[Mozza]

Thanks sandi2. On questions 1 and 3, she already volunteered a lot of information about what friends she sees and at what frequency. I don't expect any pushback but if so, I'll move on.

I'm concerned to make it a logistical discussion rather than a philosophical one. Of course, we can move. We could all move to any country that will accept us. But the question is: should we and if so is this the right moment? The answer is very obviously no for me. If I tell her that, I'm afraid she'll just harden her resolution.

She says that she hasn't made a decision but she was saying the same thing about S. Yet, a day after mentioning it for the first time as an option, she wanted to discuss the logistics.

This whole thing is a very volatile mix, especially now that the stabilizing factor of the M is gone.

[Karma12]

If you are settled and have a job where you are now living would you want to move? If the kids are in school and settled right now would more changes benefit them? If as you mentioned earlier she changes her mind and wants to move again then what? You follow her around for the rest of your life?

From what I've read so far you appear to be the stable one at this time and she is a bit all over the place trying to find herself and figure herself out. Eventually she will ( hopefully) settle more and be more balanced. Too me then moving if you all want to would be something to discuss. If she I just running to get away all the problems will keep following her until she deals with them.

What happens if at some point you decide to date and meet someone you like. Most likely they will not want to follow your ex wife every time she wants to move.

I think if she did decide to move it wouldn't take long for her to decide she wants to move again if she has issues with her parents. You have already said this was likely. My advice to you would be to think long and hard about where you want to live and where you think life would be best for you and your kids.

[Mozza]

Thanks Karma12. In true clickbait fashion...

TOP 10 REASONS WHY I DON'T WANT TO MOVE

1. We just arrived here 1.5 year ago and were set for 5-10 years. She is the one changing the agreement. We spent a great deal of money to move and we had several reasons to do so, most of which still exist.

2. The kids have a vast network here, with my extended families and numerous friends. Lots of kids their age. Both of my WAW's parents are first-generation immigrants, meaning that WAW has no extended family in her own country. She left her country at 17 years-old, meaning that she also has a very thin network of friends (like 2-3 people).

3. The kids have been at the daycare and school for 1.5 year. They have their friends and habits. They are both thriving.

4. I have no friends or family over there. Why would I move to placate her and have her live the "dream life" in her country while I'm alone in a very difficult transition period that she has imposed on me? She dumps me, then complains she has no friends so we need to move to a place where she has friends and I don't. SMH.

5. Her parents are getting old, but my parents are the same age. For reasons I won't get into, her parents are likely to live longer than mine. Also, her parents still work full time while mine are retired and have plenty of time for the kids. They can't babysit for two days in a row while my parents will do it for two weeks with pleasure.

6. Money. It's expensive to move. She has not a care for money in general because she's always got more than she earned -- either her parents or I paid thousands and tens of thousands of dollars per year to sustain her lifestyle. She knows her parents will pay for her part of the move. Oh and her country is so darn expensive.

7. It will not solve her issues, which are within her. She flies in the face of difficulties. She'll have the same reflex over there. I can't start a moving circus for the next 15 years. BTW, as usual she'll be convinced that THIS TIME, it's for good, everything will work. It always is. It was for her job 6 months ago and look: she wants to leave the place already.

8. Yes, it's cold here, but winter is depressing in her country. I lived there and hated it. So did she, by the way.

9. A tiny detail: I might not even have the right to live in her country. I'm not a citizen there. As a family, we'd have figured it out, gotten me residency. But once divorced, how do I even request residency? Go to the back of the long line.

10. I'm getting my business off the ground (or I was...) and I can't move to a place where I have no contacts, no business network.

I don't know how she can even entertain that she can, within 4-5 months, get into an A, renounce her vows, take half the kids, and plan a move where she'll be happier but not me. Picture me with my jaw on the floor.

Again: I don't want to make that conversation about the logistics of moving (when? where? what school?). This is framing the discussion as if we are going to move as soon as we clear these hurdles. I don't accept the premise that we should move anytime soon.

What I need is to find a way to present the situation (staying here) as a result of her decisions, not as my refusal to move. It will be almost impossible to deflect her anger completely, but it will be a start.

[Karma12]

I think if you made an agreement and a plan to stay where you are for at least 5-10 yrs and it cost $$$ to move and your kids are set up and happy then she would be hard pressed to find a judge that would say yes you can move and take the kids.

Kids need stability and continuity. If she wants to move she can move and come back in the Summer to visit the kids. I would be fighting her tooth and nail with this one. I would get a lawyer and have it pushed right off the table.

[gan]

ganb8te | Thanks for the lead. I read Crimson's story some time ago and I just went to ask for an update. What is it that makes you associate his stitch to mine?

Sounds a bit to me like reality is setting in for your W.

In Crimson's rounding the bend thread he speaks about having laid down a boundary asking his W to not send correspondence from L to him because he is trying to heal....then she starts communicating about how much of a difficult situation she's in (she paid $$ for a lawyer and was pinning that on him), that she hates it where they are living...then out of the blue he gets a text "I wish we could move away and start over. Somewhere cool."

[Mom22]

Hi Im weighing in on uour post,
First of all your situation is no fun, Im so sorry!

I agree that you should NOT move as it would be bad for the kids and you.
As far as trying to find a way tobring that accross.... You did a pretty good job in your point-by-point review. Kids are settled, with friends. Your parents are retired and are much more available to babysit, you have just built network here for your business and the previous move cost money abd the next one will too (and though her parents can help w money yours cant). Moving would only be to accomodate her. Its not a 45min drive its a life decision and evrn if you were together I d not consider it.
You need yo think about whats best for the kids and you now. Someone needs to. She will get angry no matter how you bring it accross, Im afraid Try to remain calm. Some things you need to pit your foot doen even if she will then walk awsy.
You can not give up your life for her.
Hug.

[LisaB]

Hi Mozza,
While it is impossible for me to know why she is suddenly making these requests and being unhappy and difficult, it does sound like she is still searching for that thing that will make her happy.

Therefore it is best for you to keep calm, let her vent and make her "plans", be the voice of reason but don't necessarily try to convince her of anything. I think you are on the right path.

You need to know your rights and protect yourself legally, which you are doing. Good. I wouldn't get too concerned over these new ideas of hers, as you said it is very much like her godmother ideas early in your story.

Let her tell you her concerns and ideas. Calmly give your reasons why you don't agree. Know your rights and don't worry too much about it for now. She can't take the kids and I don't think she would anyway. Probably she is just venting and looking for happiness.

Just like this OM, she is looking for something, someone, a change that will make her happy. But we are learning that you have to make your own happiness and contentment from within, right?

You are doing well Mozza. Remember to stay calm, don't argue, don't let her get you upset. Don't give her a reason to say "that's why I left Mozza". Be cool, calm and confident. Show her your best side.

Big hugs, Lisa

[Mozza]

ganb8te | Thanks for the clarification. I went to look a bit around his thread. I find it interesting that, mirroring my international situation, he had an embryo situation made the whole thing way more complicated, especially as his W was keen to move forward with getting pregnant before reconciling (!).

Mom22 | Thanks for your support. In a way, I'm aghast that she can even bring this up now. But I'll remain calm.

LisaB | Thanks for your support. Ideally, I'd like her to state my reasons for staying, through responding to my questions. Just "Why would I move there?" The one thing she can do without my approval is move there alone. What upsets me a lot is her rush to change things now, in the middle of this D storm (she's always been like that: can't live with uncertainty). She's not thinking anything through and I already get mad imagining her answering "Dunno" with a shrug when I ask her important questions. Why start the D proceedings now? Why is there a 1-year waiting period for D? What would I do in your country? Well, if she does, I'll just observe that she still has a lot to think about.

______________

I realized that some might think my sitch is getting bad. Funny, that's not really my impression.

In short, I feel it's on track, either way.

It's early (almost 5 months) and all sitches get worst before they get better. I had seen this OM coming from afar, so it was not a step back. I've embraced the fact that they quickly moved in together (routine galore!). I give myself high chances of getting a D before R. I had even predicted that she'd ask to move to her country after he trip home for the Holidays. She's starting to crash: the fantasy world is just reality after all. It's all going according to plan.

Also, I feel better than a few months ago. I now know that my life might be different, but that I will be happy. I've seen divorced people having a great time and good relationships. I still have my kids, if part time. So I see that DB is about saving myself first and I know that it will happen in due time. Or I might get my M back and, hopefully, this would also make me happy. Let's all keep in mind that this is not a forgone conclusion, as much as we want it.

I say this also to all of you who might feel in the dumps. I know we encourage everyone to live in the present, but remember that you're going through a phase and that the future of everyone here will be better than the present.

_________________________

Slightly off-topic...

Lots of people wonder if they should keep their wedding ring. I've taken mine off when she left home, 9 days after I accepted that I couldn't keep her from leaving. It was not a difficult decision for me. I didn't even noticed when she took hers off because it was just another ring for her (she has lots).

This just crossed my mind: I wish I asked my W to take off my wedding band herself on the day that I accepted the S. Pull it from my finger herself. Make the symbolic gesture of taking the M away from me. In any case, it's been long on my mind that if we ever get back together, she will be the one putting it back on my finger. I don't see a big ceremony, but I see it as an important, symbolic gesture.