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Mozza,

I'd suggest that you sit on the email for a while and respond later. It is not an emergency. When you do respond, keep it to ONE single paragraph using the STFU and KISS principles.

Oh and post your draft response here first so we can help you to ensure that it is in line with DBing principles.

The email is just a reflection of W's own inner unhappiness that is no reflection on you at all. All of this is ON HER. Hers to own alone.

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Hi Mozza - just a practical thought too. Can she actually leave with the kids without your 'approval?' (I'm not for a moment suggesting she would - just asking the question.)

My H and his XW are both from North America, but live in the UK. Neither are allowed to take SS abroad without permission from the other. When we travelled with him, we always needed a signed letter from his Mum. But that was agreed as part of the D arrangements I presume. It may be you need to consult a L on this area at some point.

Last edited by Toots; 01/29/15 09:23 PM.

T 13 M 7
Me 48 H 46
SS 15
BD 7.14 PA
D final 5.16 (H filed)

We receive & we lose, and must try to achieve gratitude & embrace with whole hearts whatever of life that remains after the losses - Dubus
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Originally Posted By: Toots
Hi Mozza - just a practical thought too. Can she actually leave with the kids without your 'approval?' (I'm not for a moment suggesting she would - just asking the question.)
She can't. We have shared custody. For her to take her away, she'd need the exclusive custody of the kids, which would be granted by a judge. This being said, I will gather more legal info, especially as she's going over there in July, with the kids. I want to make sure they have to come back, and what I can do if they don't.


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Thanks Wonka. Yes, I will certainly post my response here. I plan to simply validate and agree to meet. Thanks for your offer.

Originally Posted By: Wonka
The email is just a reflection of W's own inner unhappiness that is no reflection on you at all. All of this is ON HER. Hers to own alone.
I agree. Her defense mechanism (flight) is in full force again and she blames everything around here for her unhappiness. Now it's work (she's done that before), the weather and her lack of social network. These are all big challenges, I agree, but her flight reaction is not the only possible response.


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Originally Posted By: jim0987
that must be quite something to recieve. How do you feel about the email? (rather than think)
Panicky is probably the best descriptor of my initial reaction. I feared that moment since our first kiss. What if we have kids and then split? This is not exactly THE moment (where she moves), but it's one step closer.

The other feeling (and not rational thought) is hope. Silly hope. She's hitting the wall, already. Her fantasy world is crumbling. Life with OM is not good enough to offset these challenges. She's not openly reconsidering, but part of her has to realize that this is a consequence of her choice to S. At the same time, OM is practically from her country, so it can also be a joint project for them. He could be fed up of being here too, for the same reasons as her, especially as they work at the same place. No expectations, says my brain! (Yes, but... says my heart...)

Thanks for the write-up suggestion.


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Thanks sandi2. It's really nice to have your feedback at this crucial moment for me.

Originally Posted By: sandi2
Please do not have expectations! You are already wondering if she may be reconsidering D. You have to meet with her having no expectations.
Thanks for the reminder to have no expectations. I know it's best even though it's hard. I don't want to be crushed by bad news (any other reason?). You might have to remind me again...

Originally Posted By: sandi2
For all you know, OM is moving to her country. I really doubt it, but you never know. I suspect her fantasy world is crumbling and she wants to go home to her parents.
You're most likely right: her fantasy world is crumbling. And yes, she wants to go to her parents, whom she just saw in December. Her reaction, every time she goes, is to want to see more of them, to move there. But yes, OM could very well be moving with her because he's from the neighboring country. In fact, it's almost like they're from the same country.

Originally Posted By: sandi2
You need to write down questions to ask or things to talk about with her......like what are her intentions about the children! Did she not even mention them? How does she plan to finance this trip back, etc.
Her mention of the kids is that they almost never see her parents. It's implied that she wants to move with them over there. As for the move, her parents will pay. They're not filthy rich, but quite well-off and a few $10K is nothing for them when it comes to their only child. They paid for the move this time, including a complete set of appliances and furniture.

Originally Posted By: sandi2
Anyway, it's a good idea to write some notes before you talk to her, b/c you'll probably be as nervous as a cat in a rocking chair factory.
Haha! I really like this idea. I will share my notes and questions here.

Originally Posted By: sandi2
I'm sure she will ask about the D paperwork, so just tell her what they said. You don't have to express your desire about not having it done right now. Wait and see how she responds. She knows you don't want the D, so don't volunteer to tell her again. That was what I was trying to say in the last post.
All I can say is that "we don't have to do it right now, but she knows that and already told me. She's asking me: can we do it right now anyway? So in a way, I can't avoid telling her about my preferences.

Originally Posted By: sandi2
And "if" she is having second thoughts about it, I have a feeling she may let you know when she meets up with you. But Mozza, don't get into a conversation with her before you have time to think about it.
Any tip on how I can have this written on my hands without her seeing it? wink Can anyone tell me what is the "arc of R" starting from there? I mean that if I can see that certain steps will happen later, it will help me to be patient at this moment where I see a small window of opportunity.

By the way, in the episode of This American Life about the marriage reconciliation, the WAW called her H after 1 year to ask about his impending wedding. She wishes him well, hiding the fact that she wants to R because she thinks it's too late. It's him who takes the initiative to say that he will call it off if she wants to R. That's how the R started.


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Get some legal advice Mozza. She may want to move but that doesn't mean she gets to move the kids. They usually have it written in the separation of divorce agreement that neither parent can leave the country with the children without permission from the other parent. Even at the border they will ask you for a letter of consent. Be cautious if you think there is a chance she will try and take then illegally.


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Accept what is...let go of what was and have faith in what will be.
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So, I need to respond to her email... As requested, here's my draft for feedback.

Thanks for your message. I'm sorry to hear that you're going through these difficult times. Of course we can meet to talk. How do you want to go about it? Lunch next week?

When we meet, my plan is to listen and validate, to just to let her spin her wheels. She lives in the moment and can change her mind soon afterwards. See the godmother episode where I decided not to bring it up again and it never came back. This move is a much bigger issue, but the current moment is very rough for her. I can't imagine she thinks I'll be moving to her country so soon, years earlier than we had planned and now that we have separated. As she wrote me, we always knew we'd have to negotiate and compromise.

We had a short email exchange yesterday about kids' clothes. She wrote me a one-line response that I couldn't understand. She replied. "Sorry. Really drunk... Too much stress: bottle of wine with me." Again, she wasn't drinking before DB...

------------
The latest I'm feeling is a desire to save her. I want to hug her, to tell her I will listen. I've this savior syndrome with her. It's hard for me to think that she'll have some awakening by herself and realize that her issues are within her. She hasn't so far.

Much of what she complains about can be fixed without leaving. She can seek out new friends, she can make do with the weather like everyone here, she can live on her salary (average around here), her parents can come or invite her (they go on expensive 3-week holidays around the world twice a year), she can have a new attitude towards her job or seek another one here. It tells me, once again, that she hasn't changed one bit and is using the same old defense mechanisms that got her there (blame and flight). Part of me wants to tell her: "So, are you happier than you were before S?"

I also realize better that her outreach is not an attempt at R. Some may recall my baseball analogy for the WAS. They're a ball that's just been hit deep into the left field. They go up and up, looking like they'll never come down, but gravity still applies and they start to go down. Our role is to stay deep and wait for the ball to come within reach. See if it goes above the barrier or falls in our glove. Running towards the ball is useless. To me, this is the moment where the ball just passed its highest point and starts coming down. I need to stay put and let it come down.


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She just sent an update and it leans even more heavily towards moving back to her country. It's about the fact that D6 doesn't seem to connect with her maternal grandparents and that a friend of hers here is likely to move out, leaving her with almost no one here. Actually, this friend is my upstairs neighbor. I'm kind of worried that they hear me cry and report it to WAW.

But the clincher is that she asks me to reply to her saying that we need to have this open dialogue otherwise we'll need to get lawyers involved, which she'd rather not. I really don't like that comment.

I'd like to reply to her tonight or tomorrow morning. I'm tempted to go with:

Thanks for your message. I'm sorry to hear that you're going through these difficult times. Of course we can meet to talk. How do you want to go about it? Lunch next week?

(By the way, I didn't wait for the lawyer comment. I was just busy and thinking about your message.)


I hate the idea that she'll think she got me because she brought up lawyers. I wish I responded earlier.


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It looks okay to me. I don't think you need to hold off very long before sending it. She seems ready to push back, if she has to.

Keep your cool, Mozza.


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