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Time for a new Thread

Old one:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2519589&page=10

Well ... bit of an update. Dropped off S this morning, he forgot his backpack so I had to make the round trip journey to deliver it back to the W.
I have been cautious around her, according to my hurricane tracking chart her spin cycle is due any time, PMS has always created turmoil and I do not need to remind you of my Jedi Premonitions...... and wouldn't ya know it .. I received a call about 30 minutes ago. I was in a pretty good place .. have been dark with her for about a month so I decided I had shields powered up enough to take the call.
Started over the health insurance, then to the phone. And finally ... she brought up the D ... more specifically mediation. I restated my stance ... "I do not want a D, nor mediation" she went on about how were were separated and have been for a year ... I again reminded her this was not my choice. She asked if we go to mediation would I attend ... I told her I would have to think about it. She started getting emotional .. not spew but crying ... mentioned she was tired of limbo, she wanted to move on, she feels suicidal around me ... I simply listened and told her I truly was sorry she felt that way. Somehow during the conversation I did say I can only trust my gut, (I did not want to throw God or the religious card at her ... but He has a big role in this)She responded with asking "what my gut said" I told her my gut tells me that divorce is not the answer, I also felt there was not one single issue that we had between us that we could not work out. She brought up some instances over the past month where she felt I was rude and walked away from her .... I merely pointed out I was just doing what she wanted and giving her space. She told me I had a week to decide on the mediation ... I just STFU and listened for a bit and then she hung up.


So .... I actually thought I handled things well, there were some points where the hurt little boy wanted to point out OM was a big reason W and I can not work out issues .... however the bigger better person in me knows this is not truly the case nor do I feel the urge to lash out and hurt her. I have actually been expecting this, new year and all. I know in her crisis filled mind this will bring her happiness .... seems when she asked me what my gut said I sensed some doubt with her .... but we all know the MLC is all over the place so I am not putting alot of faith in that.

I do not know if this will go away (The push for D), not sure my M and me standing will outlast her crisis. I am not certain when or if W will ever come out of the tunnel. I have questions ... hard ones to face myself. I have accepted things are how they are, and have been doing my best to use this time to become a better man and continue to honor my marriage. But I am not sure when the final blow will be for me, when the D is final? I guess like all things .. worry about today ... cross that bridge when I get there. Part of me wants to just grab her .. shake her a bit and get her to understand her unhappiness comes from within, I care for her and wish she would do the work but I see her running from it. I regret the way I have handled things up to now, hindsight and lessons learned and all that.

Well ... this too is out of my hands, I continue to give my M and my W to God, I trust His plan for all this.

The Saga Continues.....


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Cali,

Many people choose to live this life superficially......guess what it is their choice to do so. Looking within is a gift, but not everyone gets to that place.

This life we live is an adventure, an absolutely incredible journey we get to take. I'm a firm believer that we need to live this life from the inside out, not from the outside in. An MLC lives life from the outside in from feeling to feeling to feeling.....doesn't leave much room for internal contentment.

Keep moving on with your life.....your doing great.

Mirage

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Hi Cali,

You said you are not sure you or your M will outlast her crisis. From what she said, I hate to tell you that this M is over. Based on my experience and others she will probably remain fixated on the D being her only route to happiness. The question you will eventually answer for yourself if the situation presents itself is do you want a new M with this person or not? This may take place before the divorce or after it. Only time will tell.

I am not sure you handled things well. You should have probably said that you don't believe that divorce is the answer, but that you won't stand in the way if that is truly what she wants. You don't have to carry the ball but don't appear to be standing in the way. This will only fuel the fire and prolong her MLC. I would seriously consider the mediation unless you have deep pockets for a lawyer. I know this is hard to accept. Somehow it does not feel like you are standing for your marriage. Are you willing to stand by forever while she is stuck on getting the divorce? If not then maybe consider this as a step in the process of continuing to move forward.

I am in the same boat and had to accept this myself. I did not stand in the way nor carry the ball. Unfortunately she chose the lawyer route and cost about $30k between both lawyers. It is less than a week now and she is already struggling and will learn the hard way.


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Originally Posted By: Lifes Twists
Hi Cali,

You said you are not sure you or your M will outlast her crisis. From what she said, I hate to tell you that this M is over. Based on my experience and others she will probably remain fixated on the D being her only route to happiness. The question you will eventually answer for yourself if the situation presents itself is do you want a new M with this person or not? This may take place before the divorce or after it. Only time will tell.

I am not sure you handled things well. You should have probably said that you don't believe that divorce is the answer, but that you won't stand in the way if that is truly what she wants. You don't have to carry the ball but don't appear to be standing in the way. This will only fuel the fire and prolong her MLC. I would seriously consider the mediation unless you have deep pockets for a lawyer. I know this is hard to accept. Somehow it does not feel like you are standing for your marriage. Are you willing to stand by forever while she is stuck on getting the divorce? If not then maybe consider this as a step in the process of continuing to move forward.

I am in the same boat and had to accept this myself. I did not stand in the way nor carry the ball. Unfortunately she chose the lawyer route and cost about $30k between both lawyers. It is less than a week now and she is already struggling and will learn the hard way.


I may have not been clear. The D has surfaced several times over the past year or so.Just to revisit this .. as its buried in my threads ....We have gone to a mediation meeting before after which she asked what I thought .. again .. I do not want D but in no way did I say I would stand in the way ... but I am not going out of my way to help either.

Seems she is struggling financially, my guess is she went through the savings that she had hid from me around BD, she consistently is looking to nickel/dime me on things .. and have me pay for all of S's incidentals. I have not pressed nor rocked the boat on this as I do not want S to miss out on things that he enjoys because W is in crisis mode. That being said .. she will be worse off financially if we do D, this will come up in mediation, I just am not wanting to waste $2000 to prove that point, but this very well may have to go to that.... and yes .... I have mentioned before part of me believes in her head she does not think she can be happy until she is D from me, I don't think this to be the case but I have voiced my concern that it makes me become the obstacle once again to her happiness.

So that being said .. I have been shopping around for apartments, found a few that would do just fine .... however if I need to come up with mediation money things could be a little tight ... again ... cross that bridge when I get there ..I am not waiting around ... there is a part of me that thinks maybe she temp-checked me with this whole push-pull game, I stated my peace and that's all I can do.


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Is this marriage mediation or divorce mediation?

If divorce, then way cheaper than an attorney.

Question for you. Why are you assuming you need to look for an apartment?

My outcome may be against the norm. I also did not agree with the divorce, but did not openly obstruct it. What I did was stand my ground on the important things. Why should she be the primary care giver and get primary custody? Why should she end up with the house? Why should I pay alimony? Those were the questions I asked myself. I decided that if she wanted it bad enough, then she can just walk away from these. In my case, I am not paying any alimony. I have the kids 5 days a week. I have full ownership of house with no financial compensation to her in the agreement. Those were her choices. Yes she is now struggling. That is part of her decision. This does not mean that I won't give her part of the proceeds from a future sale of the house. It just means that for now I am taking care of the kids and providing a roof over their heads. I didn't stand in her way, I just did not help her to get it.


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Originally Posted By: Lifes Twists
Is this marriage mediation or divorce mediation?

If divorce, then way cheaper than an attorney.

Question for you. Why are you assuming you need to look for an apartment?

My outcome may be against the norm. I also did not agree with the divorce, but did not openly obstruct it. What I did was stand my ground on the important things. Why should she be the primary care giver and get primary custody? Why should she end up with the house? Why should I pay alimony? Those were the questions I asked myself. I decided that if she wanted it bad enough, then she can just walk away from these. In my case, I am not paying any alimony. I have the kids 5 days a week. I have full ownership of house with no financial compensation to her in the agreement. Those were her choices. Yes she is now struggling. That is part of her decision. This does not mean that I won't give her part of the proceeds from a future sale of the house. It just means that for now I am taking care of the kids and providing a roof over their heads. I didn't stand in her way, I just did not help her to get it.


Mediation ... divorce

Currently I am renting a room, the apartment is for me, my new life, and my son ... I have accepted that W is in a crisis, I do not see this ending anytime soon .... I am not comfortable with my current living arrangement as I took it as a short term fix, not realizing at the time what W was dealing with.

As far as standing ground, yes the blow up 3 weeks ago I have already informed W, I will protect my rights, custody will be at the least 50-50, though at this stage I am not so sure S wouldn't be better off with me more .... but that is merely my biased opinion and one I keep to myself. We do not have a house to worry about ... but she does stand to lose a good chunk of her 401K (That I have a feeling she has pulled out and used for BIL3 lawyers) ... .she would also under the states calculator be required to pay me child support and Spousal support. This will no doubt upset her as she struggles as it is without all this.

As I told her via phone .. I would think about it. I have adopted this to clearly remove myself, get the emotions out of the way to be able to make a solid decision. The more I think about it ... meeting with the mediators is most likely going to have to happen I think for both of us. I need to continue to grow, She needs to continue her journey aswell.

Like I said .. she may/may not bring this up again with the past things, but if she insists then I do at this point think I will go along with the process.


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Cali,

I'm sorry you are struggling right now. I suppose we are all wired a bit differently, so please don't think I'm trying to be harsh.

Let your w go. Your marriage is over. Was over at BD (actually before) although the formal announcement was your official notice. Please don't clutch on for dear life. Again, this doesn't mean you can't rebuild a new R with your w should you choose, however, you have to let her go. As LT stated, standing in her way will only fuel the fire and perpetuate her feelings that you are preventing her from "happiness."

Divorce isn't sexy. It's a business decision. I'm frugal by nature and I was determined not to dump much $$$ into something I didn't believe I even though my x-ILs offered to pay for all of my costs. I spoke with attorneys (it's like the old boys club where I live) and quite frankly, I decided to not go that route as they said some rather preposterous things to me. Xh is the most passive man alive and he stated that he knew that my top concern was the kids. This isn't mind reading. My xh has said he knew that everything I did would be for them, so we hammered it out and had an attorney do the paper work.

This may not be totally DB like, but I hammered out a settlement that no attorney told me was possible. I was always the breadwinner and my concern was that I should be able to adequately care and provide for my children. Again, admittedly this may not be DB, I was not interested in hearing xh talk about how he should get to write off kids with a 90/10 split because he wanted that. Nada. Business decision .

Please don't think standing in her way helps you. You seem like a good man and a fantastic father. Focus on you and S. Live your life with authenticity.

Hang in there?!!



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Hi Cali,
Sorry to hear about W's latest move. Been there myself and it's not fun. The fact that your W said that she feels "suicidal around you" is telling. It shows how strongly the MLCer has linked their bad feelings with you. If she were at all rational she would realize that makes as much sense as saying that being around her car makes her suicidal. Your mere presence, in her mind, can cause her to want to end her life? Think about that. You don't beat her, don't treat her badly, don't bring up her past "wrongs"...in fact you are nothing but kind and understanding around her but she still links you just being there to such bad feelings that she doesn't even want to go on? You are not alone. My W has done the same. IMO it is a desperate move. It is easier for them to place blame then to look inside. Looking inward means more "bad feelings", facing up to how their own actions and reactions are just as much (or more) to "blame" for how they feel. Not an easy thing for a rational thinking person, let alone someone in MLC.

Since she left, W has been very worried about money (even though she makes over $80K a year) and has found a way to blame me. Seems until the D is final, she can't take me off her health insurance and is blaming the cost of having me still on as draining her funds! She even said she feels like she is "supporting" me! Cali, until she gets the D she so desperately wants, she WILL find "reasons" that the answer to every bad feeling she has is the fact that she hasn't done it yet. LT has been there, I am there now and so have many others. Seems like many female MLCers do this. Until she gets what she wants (in this case a D), she will link her pain to the fact that she hasn't gotten that which she has built in her mind as THE ANSWER. Hard to understand, harder to accept...believe me I know.

I wasted much time and effort thinking that maybe somehow my W wouldn't go through with it, that she would realize that D wasn't the answer, wake up in time. I was wrong and it has hurt me in getting on with my life as I should have been using the time and effort on preparing for life post D and getting my ducks in a row for the D process. IMO the more your W thinks that you will not get in her way, the better it will be. The simple saying that you don't think D is the answer will be seen as resisting what she wants.

Just be ready Cali. There may be no way to avoid a D in the end. You and I know that D isn't the answer, it seldom is. Unfortunately, in the end, there may be no way to avoid it.

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Hi Cali,

I'm going to let the vets handle this one, but I also just wanted to say a few things.

I know how hard it is to let go, I struggle with it myself daily. I have to agree with the others in that, saying you will think about mediation or to say no, you will not do mediation, is going to be seen by her as you standing in her way and fuel her fire. She needs to be able to make decisions and deal with the consequences of those decisions without you standing in the way. It is the only chance for her to see that her unhappiness does not all stem from your marriage and you.

I have looked into mediation in California and my understanding is that it involves writing up the paperwork for the final D agreement, and then at the very end, to file. I have even heard that they encourage working the marriage out instead of proceeding with D? I may get beaten up for saying this, but it's not over until it's over Cali. It doesn't mean it will happen. And if it does, again, it is her decision to live with.

Again, I'm still learning, but I don't see anything wrong with being honest and saying this isn't what you want. But you could also say if this is what you really want, I won't stand in your way. That way you state your peace but may not be seen as the enemy.


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Just more thoughts to add....... You mentioned hormones......also, you have been doing such a great job of pulling back......she may be temp checking, to see if your stance has changed or not.....


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Hi Cali

I am so sorry to hear of your latest sitch with w - she sounds so unhappy with her life - deep in MLC and not accepting that you are not the problem.

She sees remaining m to you as the only thing left she can blame for her unhappiness and it may not be until she gets it that she will truly find out it was not the answer.

Stay strong, good luck with your apartment hunt - it will be good to have your own space, somewhere you can spend quality time with your s and it will be lovely for him to have his own room at dads :o)

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Hey Cali,
Quote:
You don't have to carry the ball but don't appear to be standing in the way. This will only fuel the fire and prolong her MLC. I would seriously consider the mediation unless you have deep pockets for a lawyer. I know this is hard to accept. Somehow it does not feel like you are standing for your marriage. Are you willing to stand by forever while she is stuck on getting the divorce? If not then maybe consider this as a step in the process of continuing to move forward.


^^^ Seems like for quite a few of us the LLRT is the the way this has to play out. My stbxw is the kind of person who HAS to actually do things to figure out if they are good ideas, bad ideas, etc.

After she ended the M in June, I took it on myself to do the needful and handle the D filing, etc. She was not making any movement on her own, and avoided it when I'd bring it up. She even stated she wasn't in a mental state to handle it. I found an attorney who "got" what I was trying to do, who "got" my CHD and actually listened to me and didn't try to turn me adversarial.

Anyway, by the end of the month she will have her "fresh start do-over", in a wee bit better financial state than me, but I can carry the load, she can't. She also will never be able to realistically blame any future financial hardships on me, and our kids know this. The welfare of the kids were the primary focus of any decision, and that includes the welfare of their mother, because she is important to them. The balancing of these things, what's best for the kids, what's "fair", what does my CHD require, etc is tricky, please think everything through to all possible logical conclusions/outcomes. You'll be glad you did smile

As much as I wanted to save my M, and tried so hard, letting her go and giving her what she thinks she wants has been a blessing in disguise, and a great act of love, for her, for the kids, and for myself.

Fear leads to the dark side...

Let things unfold as they do, as you maintain being true to yourself.

Sorry if I'm rambling, been seriously sick the last week...brain still foggy... smile






Last edited by TSquared2; 01/14/15 08:35 PM.

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The old saying about "loving them enough to let them go" really rings true. Obstruction will only lead to more anger and stress for you.

The decision to allow something to unfold is scary. Nobody can tell you what you feel is the right way to handle things moving forward but remember that we all are here to offer our support.

Sometimes not making a decision is actually making a decision.


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Hey Luke, my friend.

I agree with the others. I just wanted to say a few things, if I may.

You have told her many times that this isnt what you want. She heard you, right?

I know that this is scary. I am not going to lie, divorce isnt fun. I also know that you fear that you will no longer want to stand if it happens.

Here's the thing. When you keep on telling her how you feel, you are invalidating her feelings. You are telling her, I know the words you are saying, but they are wrong, because I want you and I want to work on the marriage. Doesnt matter what you want or what you feel, it only matters what I feel.

I also get the hanging on for fear that she will move even further away if you dont. But picture someone holding onto your pants leg as you are trying to move away. You keep shaking your leg to get them off, but, they wont go. So you shake harder and move further away, all in trying to stop them from hanging on.

When you db, you are saying, I hear you. I hear that you are saying you dont want to be married, you dont know how you feel, etc. I hear you. You dont have to agree with it, but, you do have to respect her feelings.

When you make changes it means you heard them. When you give them space…you heard them.

You also give them the opportunity to think. They arent hearing the noise of your words, because that is what it is to them at this point.

When they have time to think and they feel heard and they see changes, it gives the best opportunity for them to look towards you.

It is a mindset, you know. A choice, to really and truly let go.

It is saying that I hear what you are saying, I see that you are hurting, I understand that you need to do this and I love you enough to support you.

It is in the holding on by us, that can stop the forward motion in them. They cannot be free to take those steps, if they are looking over their shoulders at us.

An amazing thing happens when you finally do let go. They feel lighter, but, so do you. You are no longer bound by their actions or their words. You are no longer tied to their emotions you no longer have fear. And so, you are free to find your path, your voice, your strengths.

Letting go doesnt mean you dont love them, it means you love them very much.

Sometimes you just have to take a leap of faith and learn to believe that you love and honor the relationship enough to want your spouse to be happy, in spite of what may happen.

But what it really says is that you honor you, and trust in you, have faith in you. So much so that you are willing to do the work, find your way, become who you were meant to be. And that maybe, you will find your way back to each other. And if you don’t, you will be ok.

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Amazing post, as always, uR. Beautifully said.

Cali, you and I are not too far off from each other. You got this. You're so close.

The freedom is delicious.

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T2 did what I did. Remember I said I made my choices right after BD? My choices were to protect the kids, try to help her, and give the M a chance. When it came to the divorce, I had an option to get bulldog atty, or one that would put the kids above either of us. I chose the latter. I also had a choice to go after the OM. In my state, alienation of affection laws are still on the books. I chose not to.

I bought her out of the house, although I likely could have held on without that. I saw no point and it didn't line up with my values and religious beliefs. There was no point to fight the obvious and it was important that the kids saw their father as one that treated their mom more than fairly. I can look back and say that divorce isn't fair for anyone but lawyers. But I have no regrets on the stand I took in that arena.

I understand your beliefs. So does your W. If it was about you, that would likely hold weight with her. It's not and you know it.

I think by now you know that fighting it, won't change the outcome. So when you make your choices, let the chips fall where they fall. Treat her well during this. But protect your son, and your assets. If the state makes her pay the money, then so be it. Not your choice - it's the law. Don't be sorry about that consequence of the choices. Don't be afraid to fight for what is yours - more succinctly, what you can't live without long-term.

That honors your feelings, her feelings, and your sons, as well as the future. Be clear headed about things, but stick to your beliefs as well. Try not to be swayed by feelings.

And you don't need to reiterate your feelings and beliefs. They're right - it'll bring you stress and anger. You've said it in actions and words. What she does with it, she does and its out of your control.

Some rambling thoughts. I hope they help smile

AJ

PS Oh. The divorce is not a painful event. Worrying about it and the future consequences is the painful part. Just so you know smile


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I would like to thank you all ... I am not going to reply member by member because .. well so many of you have blessed me with your ongoing support I am honestly at a loss for words ... nothing I could say would do how I feel much justice. I thank you from the bottom of my heart ... truly and sincerely

So ... as I mentioned .. she had brought up the Mediation card .. at the time I just wanted to think about it, not make a rash "Well F U " type decision nor move. I thought about it ... prayed on it .. thought some more. Yeah ... Mr OverAnlayze. That being said she brought it up during her PMS cycle ... over the last year I have observed this is typically when she bursts out, spins and [censored] me in ... so it has helped to track it like a Hurricane so I can prepare and board up my windows. As I have said .. I did feel this was coming, New Year, and the fact that I have gone pretty dark. So I decided that if she let it go I would as well... but if she did bring bring it up I would tell her what I thought.

Yesterday she TM about S and his project. Seems as of late S does all his homework while he is with me, and lately he has complained it cuts into the time he and I share, he feels its unfair ... but the homework must be done. I can not force W to get it done when S is with her ... so I have been helping S and trying to make things a bit more fun during this process.

W starts in about it, how she is the only responsible one .. I realize its day 2 of her cycle and she is obviously looking for a fight. She spews here and there, I let her know I have been involved and will continue to help S, I even went further to let her know he and I will be doing his special project Sunday. More spew ... she was getting herself ramped up and started in how I will never change, since I have become Catholic her life is not up to my standards, who she has in her life is her choice, and she will not live her life under my control .. even called me a tyrant ... and finally brought up the D again.

I calmly replied that I have given it some thought, and if divorcing is what will make her happy then I loved her enough to let her go. I agreed to going the mediation route.

Truth is ..as I have stated here, I do feel like I am being viewed as the roadblock (As far as she is concerned) to her happiness. I know this is not the case, but that is how she feels and no amount of convincing or anything I could humanly do will change that. I have accepted she needs to continue her journey but more importantly I need to continue mine, I deserve better than this and I choose not to have another 2014 this year (Easily the hardest year of my life). I am glad I was able to make this choice with a calm peaceful heart, if there is a way for her to find peace and happiness I want that for her ... there honestly was a time not to long ago, I was selfishly only wanting that for her if it involved me ... not any longer. The person she has become is not the woman I fell in love with and married ... the tricky part is she looks exactly like her, which filled my head with the warm and fuzzies, I thought here and there I seen glimpses of her ... but I think that was just the magical deception she cast out to keep me close while she struggled with her internal decisions.

She called today, actually asked how I was (That caught me off guard honestly) ... I told her I was doing well ... I asked the same and she told me she has been ill for the past month and a half (This too has typically been my fault and one of the many reasons she left) She asked again about mediation, asked if I had the $$ ... I told her I am currently looking to move, but agreed to pay my portion. She started in again asking "Are you going to make this difficult?" ... I told her that I have already stated how I felt, its her choice and I respect that just as I have with all the choices she has made. I do not feel she will be happy after the mediation process( especially with the settlement that I expect will be issued) she said a few other things and I could not help but see the trend ... She was not happy, and continues to not be happy regardless of all the things she has done thinking it will lead to euphoria. This divorce however will hopefully remove me from being the source of her unhappiness and maybe she can start figuring out why she is not happy ... her issue .. but I hope one day she can find peace.

I am actually at peace with this ... end of the day I did all I could do to save my M, I think I got hung up on what I thought God wants ... I realize I can not read His mind either .... I gave this to Him long ago and still have faith He has a better plan for me, still open to see what that is and where this leads me to be honest. I have made some amazing changes in my life and continue to grow. I am excited to see where this will lead me.


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Excellent post. I salute you! I too gave my situation ove to God. I have done all I can do.


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Quote:


Truth is ..as I have stated here, I do feel like I am being viewed as the roadblock (As far as she is concerned) to her happiness.



You are.

Quote:

I know this is not the case, but that is how she feels and no amount of convincing or anything I could humanly do will change that.


You will do much better when you stop trying to convince her. Most people tend to dig their heels in when someone is trying to convince them of something it's in our nature to be contrary, especially with people whom we don't view as part of our team.

Quote:

I have accepted she needs to continue her journey but more importantly I need to continue mine, I deserve better than this and I choose not to have another 2014 this year (Easily the hardest year of my life). I am glad I was able to make this choice with a calm peaceful heart, if there is a way for her to find peace and happiness I want that for her


That gets easier the more you say it. Tomorrow it will be more true than today.

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... there honestly was a time not to long ago, I was selfishly only wanting that for her if it involved me ...


Really? You don't say.

Quote:

The person she has become is not the woman I fell in love with and married ... the tricky part is she looks exactly like her, which filled my head with the warm and fuzzies, I thought here and there I seen glimpses of her ... but I think that was just the magical deception she cast out to keep me close while she struggled with her internal decisions.


No they are not the same person are they? To be honest my wife now isn't the same person I feel in love with nor am I the same person she fell in love with.

I personally do not believe that most MLCers are intentionally evil. I think they are crazy and confused and that leads them to make choices and do things that in a normal person I would call evil.

Cali, if what you are saying is true, and I hope it is. It should show up in your attitude and display as a certain amount of detachment and freedom from spite/anger that I hope she sees. I hope she sees it and is clear enough in her head that is has some effect upon her.

Call me Pollyanna, but the Fat lady hasn't sung just yet.

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Amen, Cali.

So, Jack, when exactly does the fat lady sing, when the divorce is final? Different in every situation?

Anyway, Cali, I'm about where you are. H finally filed, after hemming and hawing, and who knows what else for 18 months, in mid-November. We had a mediation session yesterday, and I realized we really needed that to 'break the ice.' I think we can settle everything else the rest of the way by ourselves. But, I had to do the same - really let H go. I finally managed to do that in the past couple of weeks, knowing that our mediation date was approaching. Had a really BAD week, which was followed by a really good one, in which I felt I was finally ready to let go and let him do what he felt like he needed to do. We have to set ourselves free, too, when it gets to this point. Good luck to you, and try to just go along with it. Maybe once 'it' actually starts happening for real, reality will slap her in the face and make her start to THINK. Hang in there Cali...you can do it. (Heck, if i can do it, you can too, I'm sure of it!)


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Originally Posted By: CaliGuy
W starts in about it, how she is the only responsible one .. I realize its day 2 of her cycle and she is obviously looking for a fight. She spews here and there, I let her know I have been involved and will continue to help S, I even went further to let her know he and I will be doing his special project Sunday. More spew ... she was getting herself ramped up and started in how I will never change, since I have become Catholic her life is not up to my standards, who she has in her life is her choice, and she will not live her life under my control .. even called me a tyrant ... and finally brought up the D again.


The further that you move through this process, and the more grounded that you become. The more that you will see the confusion and the indecision that surrounds her.

When you can stop reacting, you will see the inner turmoil inside of her.

The more that you move away from crazy, the more crazy will attempt to seek you out...




Originally Posted By: CaliGuy

I am actually at peace with this ... end of the day I did all I could do to save my M, I think I got hung up on what I thought God wants ... I realize I can not read His mind either .... I gave this to Him long ago and still have faith He has a better plan for me, still open to see what that is and where this leads me to be honest. I have made some amazing changes in my life and continue to grow. I am excited to see where this will lead me.


Like 3bears said above....

Live this....

Make them NOT be just more words....


Originally Posted By: LiveNow
So, Jack, when exactly does the fat lady sing, when the divorce is final? Different in every situation?



Well, I'm no Jack, but I did drive past a Holiday Inn Express last night....

The fat lady starts warming up when YOU say that she does.

Everybody gets to that point at some time or another. It will ebb and flow. Be done today, and change your mind tomorrow. It is your choice....

Just please remember ( and I think that this makes it way easier), that you aren't standing for your marriage, you are standing for you, and nobody else. You make that choice, and nobody else can ever take away from you, what you learn about yourself. What you are capable of, what your fears are, what you can overcome....

Nobody, ever....

Will be able to look at you and say that you failed.


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Quote:

The fat lady starts warming up when YOU say that she does.


Yup.

Several other times come to mind but thye are mostly extremes.

You die. They die. You are happy in another relationship. They are happy in another relationship...and those relationship ones? pffpt, we are proof that not all relationships last till death do us part, am I right?



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Cali I'm sending you a big ole hug! I feel you, I'm there living it too.
I kept thinking and hoping that time would lead my H to soften and change his mind. It didn't. My D will probably be final in the next month. And I will be Ok. And you will be ok.
It's a piece of paper that only confirms what's already happened.

Like me I think you are the type of person that can't imagine totally closing the door ever. I think that's totally ok. And if/when we find a new relationship that we realize is a good one and we are ready to make the jump- then the door gets boarded up.

Keep focusing on you and S- God has big plans for you!

Oh and I looove the new thread title!


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And if/when we find a new relationship that we realize is a good one and we are ready to make the jump- then the door gets boarded up.


Exactly.

wink


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Thank you everyone for your support and words of wisdom ... have not really been on in what seems like a week, just found myself busy ... ya know that whole GAL thing.

So ... observations ... after W last brought up the mediation, seems like she flipped a switch and is ultra happy all the sudden. I could go into a mind-reading session here I suppose but I wont ... I'm guessing its relieved pressure she felt, and maybe it has lifted some guilt too ... I don't know but there is a change as far as her mood that is for sure, at first I was not really effected but to be honest it really kinda bugged me last night and I am not sure why ... still processing it myself and know I need to get out of her head aswell as out of my own .. so I tried to just get through all that this morning and finally feel I am back to center. I suppose its just a process I need to get through, the fact she is not spewing at me is better than the alternative.

Friday I went out with a friend to dinner, was nice to catch up. After I did my gig, woke up early Saturday morning and met W and S at her work so we could do bloodwork for the medical insurance. That actually went well, she took me to her office and showed me her view and where she did her day to day grind. She had pics of S and some of his artwork posted. After she suggested breakfast, I agreed .... was a nice meal, pretty detached honestly. She did ask where I went to dinner Friday night, asked with who ... I was vague ... found it interesting she was concerned with what I was doing but other than that was nothing more than a shoulder shrug.
After ... since it was her day with S, she took him to baseball tryouts, I honestly wanted to go ... missing the family thing, but I needed to do my own thing for me. Besides ... its a lot of waiting so I decided to opt out and went home, took a shower, got on the Harley and rode to the theater to see American Sniper. Enjoyed the day
Sunday I picked up S ... he wanted to go to church with me (W actually offered to take him) So off we went, was a great mass .. one of those where the message was just for me kinda things. Talked about trusting God in what he has planned for you, and staying on your own path and not worrying about what His plans are for others who may seem lost ... yeah .. almost a goose-bump moment. After mass , S and I did lunch and then went and shopped around for his Albert Einstein costume, actually had alot of fun getting it all together and should be a riot when I dress him up in it for tomorrows presentation he has to make.
Dropped him off with W this morning, he gave me his trademark bear hug ... little can replace those .. I was not Mr PMA this morning, I had been doing pretty well but just seemed to be a little low and not sure why ... better now .. but man when those funk times hit ya out of nowhere they are kinda tough.

Softball and Football start for me soon, the GAL calendar is filling up nicely ... I have to weed through potential new employees today ... but hope to sneak in some apartment hunting time. Work has been pretty busy thankfully ... I do find I don't spend as much time reading up on MLC and obsessing, letting her go has not been easy and I honestly am not sure I have done it completely .. I know I haven't .. this too will take time I am certain, but I am also not clutching onto that rope as tightly as I once was. Good days and Bad days ... all to be expected I think.


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The feelings and non-attachment stuff has cycles, seems they get shorter, less intense and farther in-between as time goes...

You are doing very well Luke, give yourself a good dose of credit wink


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Originally Posted By: TSquared2
The feelings and non-attachment stuff has cycles, seems they get shorter, less intense and farther in-between as time goes...

You are doing very well Luke, give yourself a good dose of credit wink

Thanks TS


Yeah I notice I do not get nearly as "intense" nor for as long ... but still I find myself conflicted at times .. holding on to something that is just not there, and letting go looking towards what will be. I laughed during my morning walk at myself at the thought of I was happier when I was miserably married. Oh the irony.


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Hey Luke, you sound good.

I would imagine you had a little expectation after the mediation convo even if you didnt realize it.

That coupled with the fact that who really wants to hear that, led to your icky feeling.

These feelings will continue to be less intense as time goes on and you continue to detach.

You are doing great...:)

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Originally Posted By: uRworthy
Hey Luke, you sound good.

I would imagine you had a little expectation after the mediation convo even if you didnt realize it.

That coupled with the fact that who really wants to hear that, led to your icky feeling.

These feelings will continue to be less intense as time goes on and you continue to detach.

You are doing great...:)


I'm trying ... however I have noticed something ... I actually get a bit happy when I hear she is down/miserable ... she TM earlier about S and me letting him watch something admittedly not all appropriate on TV, was not terrible but I did have reservations ... anyways it appears kiddo is on a sugar rush and driving her crazy giving her a migraine, she wanted me to leave work and pick him up. I let her know I had meetings all day and would arrive at the agreed upon time as scheduled ... in a strange way I want her to do the work she needs and when she is all happy and giddy I know she is running from it ... when she is down I feel like .. ok .. maybe she is working on it.

I know .. hold the 2 X 4's about being in her head to much.... but I am being honest ... and it lead me to another place, in general, at work, out and about .. when people are stressed/unhappy it seems to make me happy ... maybe that's the fixer in me, something for me to work on I think.


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You know, Luke...I like you. You really are so honest about what you're feeling. Very important to do on here...well, everywhere really.

So, no 2 x 4's ? You arent letting me have any fun. LOL!

Really, I think you know it doesnt serve you well to be happy when someone else isnt. Not only because you cant fix everyone, but, also because you dont want to be that person, right?

I would think that you want your w to be whole one day, to figure herself out and find her way, even if that meant that it wasnt with you. That's the Luke I have come to know, even if you dont feel that all the time. smile

I just wanted say something about being a fixer. I know that it may seem like she changed the rules. When I was first married, I liked that my h took care of me. I had come from a difficult family and it was nice when he would make me feel loved.

Over time, though, as I grew, it started to bother me. It seemed like he was feeling as if I wasnt capable. I realized I wanted a partner. Someone who would work with me to figure things out. It seemed to me like he swooped in and fixed stuff without regard to whether I needed that.

I know his heart was in the right place. At least I hoped it was. But I began to feel more and more like he just didnt respect me, like he thought I couldnt handle things and it made me feel really small.

I would imagine it was a hard thing for him to figure out how it made me feel as I didnt express it, but, over time it really diminshed me and how I felt about myself.

I wanted him to work with me to find a solution because he respected my opinion and my abilities. The taking care of me part that I enjoyed was the little things that he would do to make me feel special and not him taking over and fixing situations and things that I was capable of doing.

The more I would try to handle things, the less control he felt he had. So, he took more and more control with things, and as a result, I lost me.

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I suspect part of it is that it's easier to deal with the hurt little girl vs. the happy-I'm-not-with-you person.

Did you ever consider how difficult it is for her to be on the fence? I think you have some experience there, no? wink

You either want her to be well or you don't. Who she's with is no longer relevant. And I think you know that
Quote:
I laughed during my morning walk at myself at the thought of I was happier when I was miserably married. Oh the irony.
In other words, you'll be fine regardless. You can't fix her - she has to go through whatever it takes to be whole. I think that's important to you, Cali.

There would be a certain sense of (short-lived ego-boosting) contentedness if she fell flat. We all feel that to some extent. That's ego talking though. It's saying, "you hurt me and I'm glad karma came back to you."

But that would be short-lived to be sure. It's not who you are. Who you have become.

Wish her the best, Cali. Let the law figure out the law (give to Ceaser?) and figure out how to best raise your son in the new life you have. And be glad you are not living that lie of a "happy" marriage or two incomplete people. Forget the rest - it's useless.

AJ


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So just a little distinction I would make Cali ( and I only know this because I have learned it myself).......

Yes your ego was enjoying the fact that she was having a hard time with S and migraines etc. BUT- that doesn't mean that leaving her to figure out how to deal with it herself is wrong- you aren't adding to her misery by not rescuing her- you are letting her grow up.

Not sure if it makes sense what I'm trying to say, but I know I would sometimes feel bad if I wasn't making a situation easier for my H ( because I'm the fixer). But I had to realize that letting natural consequences occur is not the same as trying to add to their misery, it's letting them realize what they have created.

So how was the movie? I can't wait to go see that one!


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Originally Posted By: uRworthy
You know, Luke...I like you. You really are so honest about what you're feeling. Very important to do on here...well, everywhere really.

So, no 2 x 4's ? You arent letting me have any fun. LOL!

Really, I think you know it doesnt serve you well to be happy when someone else isnt. Not only because you cant fix everyone, but, also because you dont want to be that person, right?

I would think that you want your w to be whole one day, to figure herself out and find her way, even if that meant that it wasnt with you. That's the Luke I have come to know, even if you dont feel that all the time. smile


Like I said .. I am not sure why I am that way, my old job was a very stressful place, the more stressed the owners were ... the higher my PMA went and the more focused I became. Just a personal observation ... maybe part fixer, maybe because typically I am a pretty positive happy person. And the honesty bit ... well yeah, that's just how I am, brutal or not I just have felt if you are not honest with other people, and more importantly yourself its not going to serve you well in the long run.
I thought about this since yesterday, just musing here and there. I think the key is ... I do want her happy, and I think I am equating her happiness with her not doing the work and that in turn not coming out of this ... and I truly want that for her, yes .... even if it does not include me, as painful as that still is .. it does not hurt as much today as yesterday ... so on and so forth.

Originally Posted By: uRworthy

I just wanted say something about being a fixer. I know that it may seem like she changed the rules. When I was first married, I liked that my h took care of me. I had come from a difficult family and it was nice when he would make me feel loved.

Over time, though, as I grew, it started to bother me. It seemed like he was feeling as if I wasnt capable. I realized I wanted a partner. Someone who would work with me to figure things out. It seemed to me like he swooped in and fixed stuff without regard to whether I needed that.

I know his heart was in the right place. At least I hoped it was. But I began to feel more and more like he just didnt respect me, like he thought I couldnt handle things and it made me feel really small.

I would imagine it was a hard thing for him to figure out how it made me feel as I didnt express it, but, over time it really diminshed me and how I felt about myself.

I wanted him to work with me to find a solution because he respected my opinion and my abilities. The taking care of me part that I enjoyed was the little things that he would do to make me feel special and not him taking over and fixing situations and things that I was capable of doing.

The more I would try to handle things, the less control he felt he had. So, he took more and more control with things, and as a result, I lost me.


I do think you are spot on with your assessment there, honestly both W and I were fixers .. just in different areas and I do think we made each other feel small. Toss in a bit of codependency and simmer on low for 24 years ..... well its a meal that has a nasty after taste.


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Originally Posted By: AJM
I suspect part of it is that it's easier to deal with the hurt little girl vs. the happy-I'm-not-with-you person.

Did you ever consider how difficult it is for her to be on the fence? I think you have some experience there, no? wink

You either want her to be well or you don't. Who she's with is no longer relevant. And I think you know that

I do want her well, I am just not so sure she will get there without doing some alone time .. not my problem nor issue really, she will or wont kinda thing and I have accepted that. I am not so sure she is on the fence, but again ... mind-reading, I certainly have no idea.

Originally Posted By: AJM

In other words, you'll be fine regardless. You can't fix her - she has to go through whatever it takes to be whole. I think that's important to you, Cali.

There would be a certain sense of (short-lived ego-boosting) contentedness if she fell flat. We all feel that to some extent. That's ego talking though. It's saying, "you hurt me and I'm glad karma came back to you."

But that would be short-lived to be sure. It's not who you are. Who you have become.

Wish her the best, Cali. Let the law figure out the law (give to Ceaser?) and figure out how to best raise your son in the new life you have. And be glad you are not living that lie of a "happy" marriage or two incomplete people. Forget the rest - it's useless.
AJ


As I posted to uR, its not that I want her to suffer for the ... you hurt me its your turn to hurt concept. Just seems to me the MLC'rs very well might rather stay in the tunnel than face the things they really need to work on .... Heck I can completely relate, looking inward and admitting your faults is hard enough, I could not imagine doing this as the MLC, like Jack said .. I dont think they mean to do the evil things, its just part of the crazy, like waking up from a dream and then realizing you actually did the things you did, would make one just want to pull the covers over their head and go back to sleep .... safer there.

The "Give what belongs to Ceasear to Ceasear" statement ... nice spin .. and yeah I have to remind myself its out of my hands often ... again my process of letting it go completely. Currently that has been my focus ... looking for a place that will allow me to be closer to S school, a place for just he and I, and allow my old blind dog .... its not an easy search but I have a few months before the house I am in will sell. Just keep at it .... my schedule is filling up GAL wise .. things are going very well in all honesty.


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Originally Posted By: daring
So just a little distinction I would make Cali ( and I only know this because I have learned it myself).......

Yes your ego was enjoying the fact that she was having a hard time with S and migraines etc. BUT- that doesn't mean that leaving her to figure out how to deal with it herself is wrong- you aren't adding to her misery by not rescuing her- you are letting her grow up.

Not sure if it makes sense what I'm trying to say, but I know I would sometimes feel bad if I wasn't making a situation easier for my H ( because I'm the fixer). But I had to realize that letting natural consequences occur is not the same as trying to add to their misery, it's letting them realize what they have created.

So how was the movie? I can't wait to go see that one!

I get your point, I think its more of a realization she is not even attemping the work from what I can see ... again .. not my problem and I constantly need to remind myself that. But the all happy in your face stuff stings .. like its "Look how happy I am without you I was right to leave" stuff ... I'd rather one just score the touchdown and hand the ref the ball ... no need to run to the 50 and spike it on the logo. Again .... out of my control, just being honest eith my feelings here, purging them and letting them out where I know I will not have them haunt me later down the road

The movie was good, I rode the Harley, I dont feel bad at all going to movies solo like this .. I have a friend who moved a bit closer .. still 5 hours away .. I would dig going with him as he is single and we have been friends since grade school ... but its all good, a nice war movie is always a welcomed distraction.


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But the all happy in your face stuff stings .. like its "Look how happy I am without you I was right to leave" stuff ...


Yeah...they do that, at first, after the decision to D is made. My youngest called her on it and how it made him feel during one of her visitation evenings recently.

From the mouths of babes...so much more effective than from ours.

Just keep venting those feelings here, keeps our sides of the street clean... wink


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Personal update

Work has been good. Really good. I took over back in January, they aquired this company 4 years ago and it failed to turn profit for 3 years, I came made some quick fix changes and by April we turned a profit ... since then more long term changes have been going in, had the sales meeting for the 3 headed monster last week, I was happy, all positive and looks like the President and CEO have faith in whats happening here and are now open to reinvest some funds, looking at new equipment this year and expanding in 2016.

That being said my latest trend of cleaning out everything has made its way to work ... my office ... and now I am instructing Shipping/Receiving and the stock room to do the same. Strange .. I never was this way but the urge is irresistible. I guess its just the fact my 24 R with W has ended, and the 17 year R with my job ended about the same time ... so everything is new and I am still cleaning out the old garbage ... physical and emotional from both places.

This morning was fun ... S has a presentation and was my job to do the costume ... nailed it. Albert Einstein ... little dude was all excited, W thanked me said he looked amazing, TM after she dropped him off from school saying the other moms showered him with compliments and said how awesome he looked. I enjoyed it, had fun with it... another memory, blessed to be his father in all honesty ... with all the turmoil that surrounds him you would never know it.

As far as me .. good day, PMA in a good place. Not much dwelling on W good nor bad .. detaching and accepting the cycles that come with it .. noticing it does get less intense and less frequent. I know I am not ready to date but I have been more open to just talking to friends, being more social and fighting my vibe that I am not approachable. I guess just getting comfortable in my new skin as I learn how to walk. Baby steps.... baby steps.


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Not much to add today .. just some babbling and journaling

I've noticed that after I agreed to the mediation, W has been a bit more chipper, maybe its the pressure off .. she was being nice lastnight as she picked up S. *Shrug* .. .no word of an appointment as of late .. will just wait and see.

I was pretty tired for whatever reason last night. Ended up throwing some stuff in the crockpot and must have dozed off around 7:30 ... woke long enough to say goodnight to S .. and went right back to sleep.

I've been looking at a few places and the more I look the more I realize I do not want a roommate ... however that would give me much better options ... I do like the idea of just S and I along with the dog in our own place .... I am pushing for that, still have plenty of time before the house sells.

All in all, I am in a good spot. I did some reading yesterday on the MLC thing ... I guess just knowing I am not crazy, this was meant to be and now all I can do is live my life, while she lives hers. Maybe she will wake up out of the fog, maybe she won't ..... just does not seem to really matter right now, I have bigger problems that I actually have control over to get past.... one of them is getting through this nice hot cup of coco without buring my face off.


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Hey Luke....you sound great!!!

I love hot coco..with whipped cream. Mmmm

I gotta good feeling that you are gonna be just fine, ya know? wink

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I have bigger problems that I actually have control over to get past
Yes, you do. And not burning your face off is a good priority smile

One of the things the MC/IC told me during my time there that stuck, "she was going to go through this, now or ten years from now." She was right about that. She was also right when she told me that I'd be done long before my ex was. Both were something I didn't want to believe but were spot on.

It really wasn't about me just like it's not about you. The question becomes, what do you want? Do you want her to be happy? (you answered that). Do you want you to be happy? (you answered that too). The rest? Well, you won't let your son get hurt and the rest is out of your control, so...

Good thought process amigo. Now go find a place to LIVE. smile

AJ


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AJ

Amen ... And yeah thinking about it and looking back. When BD hit .. I had no idea what was going on, honestly thought it was a Bi-Polar episode ... I read on some MLC that I was not the only one to have this thought, that misdiagnosis set me back some. I made alot of mistakes looking back (I'mn sure I am not alone here either), A good 7 months of them till I found this place ... and another month before the dinger went off in my noggin and I realized it was MLC all along and that started about 2 years ago as far as I can tell.

The thing I wish I would have learned .... was the fact its not a few month process ... talking years and even then no one knows if the MLC'r will emerge, when and IF they do you still have no idea what you will get (Enter Forest Gump "Box O Chocolates" here). That realization helped tremendously ... I took a place after BD that was month to month and allowed me to keep the dog thinking .. in 3 months tops she will come to her senses and all will be good .... I know right??!! lol ... oh that young CaliGuy is a riot

So yeah ... I am living MY life, for me and my S, taking care of what I can and doing my best to not get sucked into her confusion and turmoil, knowing God will do as He has done, hoping I hear and follow whatever it is He has planned out for me. I explained it to a friend the other night, If W comes out of her fog, I will basically have to approach it as beginning a new relationship with a new person, just as I would do regardless .... I am basically single, not my choice but I have accepted it. I am not giving it much more thought than that ... like I said .. I am not ready to date, and like everything else I will cross that bridge when I come to it .. no sense waisting energy on predicting the future. I do want her happy ... and if OM really makes her happy and that's what she wants .. so be it. She does not look happy, honestly she looks exhausted all the time lately but puts on the happy front regardless. I hope she finds peace and rest .... I know releasing her has helped me tremendously. I used to come into work and do nothing but read and search for the magic bullet ..... turns out it was hiding in my lap the whole time, mirror work and focus on oneself, something I actually have control over vs trying to steer the Tornado of Doom.

Looking forward to the new place, I think I found one but I can wait a bit .. put away some money (I have my eye on a new dining room set for S and I to eat dinner and arm wrestle on) and keep my other eye out for an even better fit .... but knowing I will be ok has me at peace, I am starting to like the new me, he is a good guy, great dad, and actually pretty funny most the time.


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I'm liking the new Luke a lot. smile

You know, I used to say those same things..I wish I had learned this or that sooner and I was a slooooooow learner.

Until I realized that I wouldnt have been able to hear all of it back then. It happened when I was ready and in the way I needed it to happen.

So, you know what you know now and that's a good thing. You are right where you are supposed to be. Believe it.

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oh that young CaliGuy is a riot
Yes, I think that's right smile

I'm with uR on this one. I used to look back and think, "Gee, I wish I had known this or done that, or I really should have done this or that...." Maddening drivel in the end, because really when you get down to it, I wouldn't be who I am if I had done differently. And I'm happy with me. I like me. I'm glad for the changes I made (few, but necessary and important to me).

I've given that a lot of thought over the years, Cali. I really wouldn't change a thing to be honest. I don't regret one minute spent trying to make sense of what happened. Not even after I realized that there is no way to make sense of it. I don't regret protecting my kids the best I knew how. I don't regret trying to help my ex. I don't regret the swallowing of my pride to do those things.

I knew what I could and could not tolerate. Turns out I was wrong by a mile - I could tolerate a lot more than I thought. Go figure smile I also knew that if I didn't do those things in the order and time it took that I wouldn't be able to tolerate me. I had to go through it the way I did. Ever second of it. Until I no longer needed to.

I think we're all somewhat like that. I think that's why it's different for each of us. Even when the rest can plainly see and want to scream, "Look! Just stop doing that or this and definitely that!!!"

It takes time and it's personal.

But it's worth every step, in my honest opinion.

AJ


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But it's worth every step, in my honest opinion.

^^^^^ agree 100%


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Cali you sound really good! You mentioned thinking it was bipolar disease. I did the same thing- " he's not the same, something's not right. Maybe it's his diabetes, or sleep apnea, or ADD, or depression" or any number of other things I kept trying to figure out and then FIX for him!
Yeah had no idea what was actually coming and how long it would take!

But sometimes, like UR and AJ and Eric say- I think that's how it's supposed to be. I think my hope or anger or sadness at any given time helped me get through to the next stage of growth. And it had to go the way it did for me. I see it in your posts too, the process of letting go is a slow one for sure. But you are making leaps and bounds.
I'm happy a new place is on the horizon for you. You deserve it!


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Hey Cali,
Time to make some homemade mayo, wash some lettuce, slice some tomatoes, toast some bread.... The bacon is just about ready...

wink


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Cali - I really like the part about if/when she comes out of her fog, you'll still have to approach it as starting a new relationship with a new person, just as you would regardless...never thought of it that way. We're going to start over, whether it's with our S or with someone new. (Sigh) Kinda makes me tired just thinking about it! I like your attitude, tho. You sound great. Keep on keepin' on.


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Well Happy Monday everyone ... and Thank you uR, AJ, eric, daring, TS, and LN ... yeah this process ... well its not one I would wish upon anyone, but the fact you all get it and are SO supportive has proven to be a Godsend.

Update time. Sorry ... alot to get out.

Friday, I have been really keeping busy at work, getting areas more organized before we ramp up and get busier. Sales meeting projections look for us to have a record year, work is going very good. So towards the end of the day I check my emails .. work and personal ... and there it is .. my spidey sense was on that morning as W looked at me strangely as I kept things short as I have over the past couple months. I received an email from the Mediation Office stating W had contacted them that afternoon and initiated the process. I emailed back stating I understood ... but financially I was not prepared (Just found I had to pay 1k in taxes) I get a reply that W has agreed to pay for mediation, and the balance of what I owe will be part of the final settlement. I then received my "packet" aka homework to fill out. Seems these guys move fast ... strikes me as the equivalent of a drive-through divorce.
As good as I have been doing, admittedly this was a gut punch, I was first upset, then sad, then mad ... strangely ... I went through the cycle of emotions in about 30 minutes then I arrived at a place of acceptance and peace. I knew this was coming, and I know its most likely a necessary step as much as I never wanted it.
So I gathered myself and picked up S and he told me all about the Book Fair he wanted to go to on Sunday, we went home as we typically do. W showed up and looked tense and on edge, S and I were PMA I walked them to the car as if nothing happened.

Saturday W dropped off S for a few hours (we had set this up prior) so she could go get her hair done. S and I went to the store for groceries, its amazing ... just going out to do stuff like that we have a blast ... "Child beatings on isle 4" was in full effect as we were smacking each other around .... I swear I turn into a 7 year old around him far to often ... but .. its just my way. W arrives a few hours later hair all done. I ahve noticed she gets her hair done twice as much now as she did pre MLC, she also has new clothes constantly. Just observations. So I walk them out to the car .. W asks if we can talk .... Oh boy ... Shields up to Max, Jedi training manual handy..... Ok .. Go. First topic was the misunderstanding on the taxes, she did not understand my email nor I hers .. so we settled that out and I assured her I would put in the money in Feb, I was just not happy with the screw up and late notice that the $$ was due as I was looking to use that for the new place I would be moving into. Then she moved into letting me know she was going up to see BIL3 in March and I would need to take S, again no problem I just asked she give me a heads up on the date so I could make arrangements on getting my Friday gig covered. And ... finally the Mediation talk comes out. I was calm, cool ... told her I have emailed the agency, received my packet and would fill it out. She is obsessed that I do not take all of "her" money ... that she wanted to divorce amicably ... well ... ya know provided she gets her way. I told her I was not looking to get one over on her but I would also not accept anything less than what the state says I am legally entitled to, and I told her I was well aware she was not going to like this situation. She then started spinning a bit ... telling me if I finished my degree none of this would have happened. Again ... I validated but also told her that life happens and I always did the best I could. She then started rattling off dates, Jan 26th ... I am not certain as this is a new one but I think its in reference to the miscarriage date. Then she said I was never there for her .... This one I calmly told her .. "I made alot of mistakes, but that one ... no .. sorry .. I was always good about that, I was always there for you 24/7" With that her and S left .... S said they took a really long walk around our old lake.

Sunday... W TM that S wanted us both at the Church/School for his open house and mass. So I arrive, W ofcourse is always late, the church was packed .. by the time they arrived it was standing room only. During mass it felt like W was checked out for portions and engaged in others. So towards the end the Eucharist portion starts, W has S ask me if I was going up ... I am not Catholic just yet so I just get blessed often, but with the large crowd I opted to not go ... W seemed flustered with this and took S. So here was an eyebrow raise for me, you are not to receive the Eucharist if you are committing "mortal sin" (Adultery) ... W has not gone up in a long time, when she did she and OM were broken up. However I don't think they are at the moment. So they make their way back and W looks at me ... the guilt and shame on her face looked like a little kid who just did something wrong. I kept the poker face, prayed for her after ... and realized just how gone she truly is.
Later we did the book fair ... went into his class and checked all that out ... walked her to her car and off she went.

So S and I get home, he read his new book as I cleaned up a bit, got the car all clean, put things away ... then he and I took his new bike out. He has been struggling riding it and became frustrated ... we let it sit for a bit .. but I figured .. beautiful day and had nothing planned. We figured out it was the gears that had him all messed up .. set it to 2 and whammo .. off he went ... rode the thing all over I was so happy and proud .. the smile on his face ... ugh ... nothing better. He told me as we were going back home "Dad that was so much fun!" I cooked, we had dinner .. watched a movie and got ready for bed. He called W as usual ... they talked a bit ... she asked how I was, shocked me .. she has not asked about me in months ... I let it go .. who knows why. As S was about to fall asleep ... he asked me if we could ride bikes again soon .. you could not chisel the smile off my face ... looking forward to going to our lake for a nice ride this weekend ... I could care less about the SuperBowl, yeah ... man I have changed.

So ... I have a stack of paperwork to fill out for mediation, in a strange way it has hit at the perfect time, I will know for certain where I stand financially and this will help me get a place that I will not have to stress about later, S and I are really looking forward to this ... strange .. I have never had a place all to myself ... ever. Lots to do this week ... new life is not waiting around lol


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Hey Luke, I know no matter how prepared we think we are, when the divorce is started, it still hurts.

So you processed all those feelings pretty well, just know they will come back around some again.

In her mind, she has to do this because what she has tried hasnt worked as she still isnt happy.

I would like you to think about something. You are pretty flexible regarding her asking you to take your son. I know you do if for him.

The thing is that she has to live her choices, too. She told her you had to watch him while she goes to her brother's. I know you want the time with him. But I dont want to see her taking advantage of that.

She wants to end the marriage. That means that Cali isnt going to be there whenever she wants, right? Not at punishment, just because that's the way things go when divorces happen.

Great job with the bike...man, that is such a great feeling, isnt it? He will always remember that day, Luke. Lucky you that you got to be there.

You are doing so well, my friend.

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Originally Posted By: uRworthy
Hey Luke, I know no matter how prepared we think we are, when the divorce is started, it still hurts.

So you processed all those feelings pretty well, just know they will come back around some again.

In her mind, she has to do this because what she has tried hasnt worked as she still isnt happy.

I would like you to think about something. You are pretty flexible regarding her asking you to take your son. I know you do if for him.

The thing is that she has to live her choices, too. She told her you had to watch him while she goes to her brother's. I know you want the time with him. But I dont want to see her taking advantage of that.

She wants to end the marriage. That means that Cali isnt going to be there whenever she wants, right? Not at punishment, just because that's the way things go when divorces happen.

Great job with the bike...man, that is such a great feeling, isnt it? He will always remember that day, Luke. Lucky you that you got to be there.

You are doing so well, my friend.


Yeah you are right about the being available to much .. especially when it comes to S. I felt that Saturday, but I selfishly took it as its a bonus 4 hours I don't get with him .. and I know when he is with her he is alone playing in his room as she is doing who knows. He tells me this, so its all I have to go on.

As far as the feelings ... yeah .. its a serious gut punch and I still am in denial to a point, I never thought in a million years her and I would end up this way .... well that was before I discovered aliens can take over ones spouse via possession of the soul .... still SMH every now and then ... but I have faith this will all be for the best in the long run.

If anything .... I was given the gift of time .. I know here its so cliche... but looking back (I even mentioned this with W Saturday very briefly) I was more concerned avoiding a fight with her than I was sticking up for me and doing what I felt was best. I lost me, lost my spark, I have slowly started to regain that ... its been almost 3 years ... part of me wonders if I myself did not spin into a mini MLC episode and her leaving me shot me out of the tunnel a bit. Who knows ... but what I do know, I am starting to figure out this "life" thing out ... I have my priorities locked down, I am taking control of MY life for the first time it seems and it feels good. I like the new me, and I am really at a place I do not need anyone to complete me, I would love to share "all this" preferably with my wife ... but honestly ... she isn't someone I can trust, nor someone I really want to be with at the moment in her current form. I do hope she finds peace, and not that fake peace she seems to be in and out of lately ... I can see it on her face, must be exhausting .... maybe she figures it all out one day ... and yeah the little hurt boy in me wants her to realize someday she had a guy who loved her completely ... mess and all ... loved her enough to let her go. Who knows when and if that will happen, bottom line ... I look in the mirror everyday and see room to improve, reflect on all the improvements I have accomplished and realize I have done all I can do to save my M and family and sometimes your best just isn't good enough, I did all I could and that's fine by me, I will walk my walk with dignity and accept this is how its to be.


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Beautiful, Luke. Really and truly.

It has really been an honor to watch you walk your journey. I believe with all I have that this is one we were meant to go on.

You are a very special, man, my friend.

I have no doubt that you will continue to grow and learn. That's what really matters.

You will find a place that feels right to you when you are ready regarding what you allow her to do and what you dont.

As long as the decisions are made with clarity and honor, you are ok.

Cant wait to see where you land, sweetie.

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Cali- While I read your posts, I smile and nod my head because I so relate, I am so there with you. Although different things are happening in our sitches, we seem to be in very similar places on our own journeys. I am really proud of the way you handle things, I think you are doing great.

I am the same with my H, I let him drop the ball on his parental responsibilities over and over. But its not for H, it's for S. I feel he needs me and my stability right now. I figure once I feel things settle a little and H can pull himself together a bit more, I will need to put my foot down. I guess I am waiting to make sure I am comfortable that the time is right.

Stay strong, I am looking forward to you finding a nice place for you and S smile


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Hey Cali- I'm sorry to hear about the mediation. I know all too well that feeling of getting an email with papers in it. Over time it does get better. You cycle through those emotions a lot, and each time a little less intense.
I identify so much with your thought that many times you did things to avoid a fight and lost yourself in that process. I did the same. I didn't stand up for myself and getting the respect and treatment I deserved. Crazy to think as I'm very strong. But somewhere we all got sucked into the vortex of day to day. We have an opportunity now to love ourselves as much as we did others.
I know in my heart God has big plans for you and regardless of who it's with- you will find joy.


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BD1 dec 2012 not sure going to work
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uR- I am at a loss really ....Thank you from the bottom of my heart..... I constantly think about the sitch and realize ... no way I would have made these changes without all this happening ... there is a part that will time from time yell at God saying "Ok .. I changed, I am all better, make this go away" but I know there are still things that need to be done, I don't understand it right now as I know I am still in the middle of the storm, one day I hope to look back and realize this was how it had to be.

mleigh- Yes our sitches are very similar, there are differences but out time lines seem to be linked somewhat. Its strange, there are times I am at peace, other times it hurts ... but I know I have to just "be" ... don't get to high, and avoid getting to down. I would do anything for S, was a time I would do anything for W but I have to hold myself back for both our sakes ... I read its like letting them go riding a bike .. you have to let them be free and see what kind of tree they can run into.

daring- Yeah .. was a gut punch, and I still can not believe its going down but I know that logic part of my brain knows this has to happen. Maybe she gets a sense it all can really be over ... maybe the freedom releases me in her mind as the blockade to her happiness ... or maybe she is just better off with OW and he fills the needs she has now ... I do not have the answers, all I know is this is part of the process and it has to happen. I am slowly finding me ... dusting my old self off and combining hi mwith the new version, I like him so far.


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Just a little update.

Dropped off S this morning, I was fighting the "Bleh's" ... but went into fake it mode walking up the stairs. S was amped up as he typically is with me, W still reads me like a book.... I told her I was fighting the headache (Wasn't a lie .. but did not tell her about the Bleh's) I asked how she was .. she said she strained her neck planking. I hugged S goodbye, W and I talked briefly about his birthday dinner that he wanted us 3 to have next week, trying to figure out where ... short but pleasant.
She TM me asking if I would be taking him to a B-day party of his friends that is scheduled Sunday (SuperBowl) I told her I could, I just need the adress .... she sent it ... I told her after he and I were going to the lake, shared how he told me this morning he wanted to ride his bike 20 miles to school this morning. She asked I send pictures of it when we go ... so I sent a video I took last weekend. She replied "Wow, I'm so proud of him, sorry to miss that"

I thought about that ... just as I was working .. of all those little things I will miss while he is off with her .. things she will miss while he is with me, shame really ... but .. not my choice, I've done all I can do, and time will tell what happens with all this. So I started filling out more of the mediation paperwork, there is a section of things I would like to discuss ... I put alot there. S school, its private and expensive, I want to make sure he is still going to go there, and that the costs are 50/50 ... there was a bank account that is now empty, again ... that needs to be addressed. Just alot of things .. things she will be upset that I have called her out on .. but she has gone through a good chunk of money that A) I am not wanting to be responsible for ... B) That was marital $$ and should be put back. As I thought about this ... I went into my life insurance policy ... W was 100% beneficiary, with her latest demonstration of financial responsibility I changed it ... she gets 25% and S 75% when he becomes 18. If I go ... I want him to have something to show for it ... not trusting she would be good with that money at the moment.

She TM me later actually asking about my headache ... I just shake my head ... not sure where this is coming from, not reading into it nor going to let myself get sucked in.

I sent some of the mediation paperwork off, I still need to gather some more on the bank accounts and loans. Looking into pulling my car off the auto insurance, still need her to release my phone so I will have my own account back. I also need to get the copy of our taxes for mediation. Just lining up my cute yellow little duckies .... and then its all up to her if she wants to proceed with the D

The apartment hunt has been ... well .. going. I need to house the polar-bear sized dog ... that has proven to be a hurdle .. I also need a garage so I can not pay the rent on the storage container .. roll that money into the rent. still .. its more than I wanted but I can swing it ... I have time, I do not see the house selling right off, and even when it does I have 45-60 days as the owner is looking to place a contingency plan to give her time to buy and move into a new place.

So ... moods .. I have been in a funk the past few days .. but at work I am ok, stay busy ... the lows are not as low nor as long... but the last few nights I have been waking up around 2 ... thoughts of the sitch ... get back to sleep pretty fast ... but the annoying part is I have been waking up about 20 minutes before my alarm ... grrrrrr ...lol


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Hey Luke, the blehs are going around, Im afraid.

Let me get the business part out of the way. Dont know how it works where you live, but, where I live, any monies spent, as long as you are married, even if separate, is gone and does not have to be repaid. Any debt incurred, is half yours.

I learned that the hard way. Trust me on that. I hope it doesnt hold true where you are.

But you should absolutely be fair in what is coming to you and what is coming to her. Nothing wrong with protecting yourself.

Now, about how you feel...all normal feelings. The reality of the legal finality of your marriage in its present form, is gonna sting some. No way around that.

And yea, you and she are going to miss out on some stuff with son and that su*ks. Without a doubt.

But that being said, he will be ok. I know you know that. And so will you be.

Its ok to sit with a funk for a bit, as long as you dont live there, right?

There is still more to your journey. I can promise you that one day you will see completely what it has all meant and why it has to happen on your end. Cant know why it happened on her end.

I wish you could see what I see, Luke. How far you've come, how much you've changed and grown. Man, is it cool.

Keep walking the path that you're on...it's the one that leads you home. smile

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I would make the argument that when the separation started that and debt incurred by you is yours and any she incurred is hers. As long as the agreement is written that way then the court will agree to it. So, it is worth fighting for. I just went through this and that is what happened. And this is in a state that still favors women in divorce. Regardless of how things generally go, if you can both agree to it then the court will favor that.


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Originally Posted By: Lifes Twists
I would make the argument that when the separation started that and debt incurred by you is yours and any she incurred is hers. As long as the agreement is written that way then the court will agree to it. So, it is worth fighting for. I just went through this and that is what happened. And this is in a state that still favors women in divorce. Regardless of how things generally go, if you can both agree to it then the court will favor that.


Well I was thinking the same thing. We are in mediation and she still has no idea I bought the Harley ... which I will fully take on and have no thoughts that would be her debt in any way ... just as I feel any clothes/cameras she has bought (and its been considerable) would be my debt ... I would think thats not going to be an issue .... but MLC and all ... and her selfish entitled ways might prove otherwise ... time will tell. She said last week she wanted to do this amicably and I blurted out ... "Amicably as in your way?" ... I thought it was funny but seemed she assumed they were one in the same .... which in turn made me find it more hilarious.


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Update ...

She seems to be softening up lately ... the moods ... just in general ... maybe the mediation and her nearing freedom is a reason .. who knows. I picked up S from school and on the way home he starts in asking what he can do when we get to my place (He has about an hour before W picks him up on her days) SO I ofcourse pick character building things like .. pick up dog poop in the back yard ... anything to avoid him jumping on the video game as he gets upset he has to quit mid game when she arrives. He asked if he could ride his bike .... I smiled and said sure ... such a nice thing to see him really take to it, its now fun for him and took me to my childhood when a bike meant freedom ... I rode mine all over the place.
So after the ride W shows up as I was cooking my dinner, I walk them out ... S is bouncing all over the place full of pride as he is riding his big boy bike finally... she asks me how I am .... asks about my headache (I have been getting them off and on for a bit ... I am sure its vision related but have to wait a month to save some $$ for the frames) I assured her I was fine, S and I had a nice time ... she blurts out "What if its serious, what if its cancer" ... I was like ... really? Last time when I didnt know .. actually thought it might be serious as the Dr scared the crap out of me .. I went in for every scan test you could think of ... the W in full MLC glory was more concerned I increased the life insurance policy .... ironically I just moved a good chunk to make sure S would have it yesterday.

So I go back inside and have my dinner at the table alone .. Chicken Fajitas ... this guy can cook, I realized that I used to cook all the time before BD, I mean like 5-6 times a week, I loved it ... the past year, maybe 2-3 a month ... Just never felt comfortable in someone elses kitchen ... so I started thinking about how that would change, S was talking the other day about all the stuff we cooked together and was looking forward to that ... I must admit I am too ... new place can not get here fast enough.

I watched a few shows .. jumped in the shower and noticed W TM "are you awake?"... was about 10 or so .. I figured eh .. I am not really wanting to stay up and get into anything with her at the moment ... I am officially asleep. laugh So I jump in bed and drift off .... phone rings at like 11 ... guess who... I thought maybe there was an emergency ... nope .. she apologized for waking me up, again was asking about my headache .. I told her I was fine just needed to sleep, told her goodnight and hung up the phone. I went to bed thinking .. really? Just a week or so ago she was making sure I knew she didnt care about me ... now she is all over me over a headache? MLC ... I will compose a song about you one day and horribly sing it in the shower for all to hear.
I woke up before the alarm ... again ... look at my phone to see what time it was ... still had 45 min, and there was a 1:00 TM from W "Anxiety attack, can't sleep" .... I got up and put my lunch together ... cleaned up a bit ... I TM her back letting her know I hope she got some sleep. Went into work ... she replied that she didnt sleep much .. apologized for waking me.. she was going to keep S at home and was going to try to rest a bit.

I am not going to mindread, its dawned on me its impossible to do so, that head is a forest full of creepy crawly things. Looking at the calendar its not her PMS season ... laugh and mock at me tracking her PMS but its proven essential in scheduling me getting my spew jacket dry cleaned... That is due to hit around S birthday. Maybe she is/has been processing things ... maybe not I have no idea, time will tell. I have some documents for the mediation to ask her for but there is a part of me wondering if that is what has her spinning a bit. I stayed back thankfully .. was not eager to jump and fix/rescue ... her sandbox, her journey.

So ... today I have a couple quick things to do in the office .. will shop a bit more for apartments ... keep at my project Clean-Sweep in the back .. I am in a good place today.


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Hey Luke...if I had to guess, I would say she is spinning over the mediation. I have seen that many times. Where they have doubts come over them as it gets more real.

But, thats a guess because I cant get in her head. Nor would I want to cuz its crazy all up in there.

She seems to feel as if she will still have you to go to when she is feeling anxious or upset. Just an observation.

The spinning..is just that. Be prepared for spew to come back...it's just how this goes.

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W TM me ... "Can I ask you a question?"

Uh oh ... me 25 min later "sure"

W"Can I call you?"

So she calls, asking me about her TV, evidently the sound will randomly go out ... not sure what it is but I know S and her have complained about it periodically. I am the type of guy .. born and raised poor ... I fix it .. I know .. SHOCKER right??? Well with my Jedi training here .. I refused to even offer though the words have been on my lips since I heard there was an issue. I get a kick out of fixing things .. always have. But as she is talking about it ... I ramp up the shields realizing ... danger danger .. she could have asked about this at anytime over the past few months ... something is up.

So then she says something about me not wanting to come inside her apt. .... true .. I have stayed out since before Thanksgiving. She started in about not being allowed to be a part of what S and I have been doing, bike rides, walks with the dog ... all that stuff. I told her she was free to come by and grab the dog/bike and go with S whenever she would like provided I am home .... she quickly said her car will not fit the bike, and she is not strong enough to walk the dog ... Um.... not my problem. Then she busts out with "I am alone" ... I told her that I am sure that's hard, (I don't really believe it as she has done this countless times I didnt say this) ... the push pull is in full effect but this time I felt it and told her my boundaries. She pushed back a bit ... but I told her how I felt, I am a single father, S is my #1 priority and I am not going to introduce anyone into our world whom I did not trust. BAsically expanding on how I actually feel ... Its a matter of when I feel I am ready to date again and that includes dating my W .... at this point I am not ready and I do not feel she is anywhere close.

That being said ... maybe she is starting to work out some of her issues, I still think the D will be pursued and she will require alot of time to get to where she needs to be IF she can get out of the fog .... but filing out that paperwork (I am still not done) did make things very real for me ... might have had similar effect on her ... she has not shown interest in doing things with S and I in some time.


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Originally Posted By: uRworthy
Hey Luke...if I had to guess, I would say she is spinning over the mediation. I have seen that many times. Where they have doubts come over them as it gets more real.

But, thats a guess because I cant get in her head. Nor would I want to cuz its crazy all up in there.

She seems to feel as if she will still have you to go to when she is feeling anxious or upset. Just an observation.

The spinning..is just that. Be prepared for spew to come back...it's just how this goes.



Yeah ... I agree ... but thankfully I am getting better at staying far enough away from the vortex to let her spin without sucking me into it.


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Wow Cali. She is very consistent with a spew, then a pull back in and a cry for help.

I think you are handling it really good, especially the mediation. She needs to know that things are and will be different now, that you won't run to her rescue as needed. It's time for reality to hit her, and I think it is.

It's crazy to think how their minds must spin, it really does not sound fun. Stay strong, stay the lighthouse. I love your humor, you are a funny guy! smile


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Originally Posted By: mleigh4
Wow Cali. She is very consistent with a spew, then a pull back in and a cry for help.

I think you are handling it really good, especially the mediation. She needs to know that things are and will be different now, that you won't run to her rescue as needed. It's time for reality to hit her, and I think it is.

It's crazy to think how their minds must spin, it really does not sound fun. Stay strong, stay the lighthouse. I love your humor, you are a funny guy! smile


That she is ... she is also consistent in letting me know when OM is in the "off again" position ... I used to bite like a alligator when she would do this. Not any longer. I think truly the concept of accepting I am single and treating her as I would any woman who might take interest in me has helped me stay detached .... sure admittedly I ramped up just a bit with the "Can I Call you?" as my Spidey-Sense went bonkers ... but I stayed calm, had boundaries.

She has been TM over $$ the past hour, saying she was at the bank ... ironically its where I am headed as we have to provide statements on the accounts ... I can only guess she is doing the same. Her MLC brain is not making sense ... S Birthday party is coming up and I have offerent to pay half .. she is struggling with simple math ... last I checked half of #315 was not $287 that she thinks I should pay. smh

Ok .. off to the GAL ... yanno .. go to the bank and get my statements .. hopefully score the statements of that "lost joint savings account" that had about 6k in it.


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So yeah ... as I suspected the bank proved my suspicion correct. Upon BD W emptied the joint savings account ... well .. ok thats not all entirely true, she left 21 dollars in it but ran with 7.5k. In a way I want to confront her, just to watch her lie to me about it and then see her expression change when I show her the proof .... She moved out Nov 8th and emptied the account on the 12th apparently during her lunch hour. Confronting is not going to do me nor her any good at this point ... its not even about the money, never has been with me. But the constant lies and betrayal will motivate me not to budge as far as negotiations in the financial nor custody matters. Surprisingly I am not really that upset about it ... then again .. I pretty much knew all along. I thought it was about 5k ... and I know there is not much I can really do .. but I do have her signature on the receipt and its all in cash. She has swore she never stole from me, I am guessing in her MLC mind this was her money all along.

Ironically during that phone call earlier she seemed to not understand why I told her I did not trust her ... this was more toward the line that she was alone and has been for awhile ... yet she had told me a month ago S witnessed her and OM kiss ... so I am not sure what "alone" means to her ... shrug

So ... I have the bank statement portion done, the IRA done, I have the rest in my office I think ... I just need a copy of out taxes that W has in her possession and I think that's all I have left to submit.


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Too bad you did not anticipate her taking the money and moved half of it to another account. I had a gut feeling about my wife when I was in the hospital and had my parents move half our checking account out so I could cover home mortgage, etc. Of course she cried foul and said she needed the money for her expenses of getting a new apartment. Tried to use it at the beginning of divorce. I showed the fact that the bills were covered and that she had not planned on paying them.

You will need to show she took the money and also any finacial issues this may have caused as things move forward.


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I know right? At that time I was still dazed and confused, had no idea what I was dealing with. Laughing to myself thinking ... I have only figured out the MLC issue existed about 5 months ago. Our entire M I worked, deposited my check, came home .... we would discuss big purchases or if things were tight, but I really only had a guess as to how much we had at any given time (Something I honestly am happy happened, as I will never be in the dark about finances again regardless who I am with). Then the alien abduction happened and they pretty much took it all, I figured .. ok, 24 years of being together, we will figure it out ... I took a month to month rental .... had no idea.

I was thinking about it last night. I of course have heard of MLC, I do not think I am alone in the belief that it happened to guys in the 40's and consisted of buying a red sportscar and lustful thoughts/actions towards women nearly half their age. Then the 2x4 of reality smacked me in the face and I discovered here, there was an issue that seems lost in the medical world. I wondered .... how many people have gone through what we are going through without this knowledge .... I mean you are married for a bit and BAMM the WAS/MLC'r goes off the deep end and is spewing at you like no other, without knowing about the fog, tunnels, OP's being almost an 'accepted' part of this craziness .... just knowing I was not the only one was the beginning to me accepting the journey ... or "Walk of dignity" as I call it in my mind. My heart goes out to all of those here .. past and present but even more so for those who make this journey without any explanation nor closure.

Of course then for fun .. my mind wandered into the double MLC at the same time scenario, I day dream like that sometimes. laugh


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Originally Posted By: CaliGuy
I was thinking about it last night. I of course have heard of MLC, I do not think I am alone in the belief that it happened to guys in the 40's and consisted of buying a red sportscar and lustful thoughts/actions towards women nearly half their age. Then the 2x4 of reality smacked me in the face and I discovered here, there was an issue that seems lost in the medical world. I wondered .... how many people have gone through what we are going through without this knowledge .... I mean you are married for a bit and BAMM the WAS/MLC'r goes off the deep end and is spewing at you like no other, without knowing about the fog, tunnels, OP's being almost an 'accepted' part of this craziness .... just knowing I was not the only one was the beginning to me accepting the journey ... or "Walk of dignity" as I call it in my mind. My heart goes out to all of those here .. past and present but even more so for those who make this journey without any explanation nor closure.


This is so true... I had the same perception of MLC until it happened here in my own home with my W. In our case -- we are a same-sex female couple, so I really had no warning that this could happen to us... I mean, like you said -- this happens to men in their 40s, right? Instead, I am looking at my W, who definitely seems to have been possessed by an alien, and seeing everything except the little red sports car... But that may show up next week, who knows... And when I say possessed by an alien, I mean it -- complete 180 in terms of personality and even the look in her eyes is different. I can now reflect back and see when I think the depression started to begin to set in (but I wasn't aware enough to understand that was what was happening until BD), and then I can look at photos of her over time and see the change in the eyes and the change in her smile in the photos. Unreal.

I did some more Google searching yesterday (trying to find info on brain chemistry and MLC/depression) and came across a psychology article that basically called MLC a myth with no basis in medical fact. I got so angry at that article because it's quite clear from the experiences we are all sharing here that this is happening, and it's happening to men and women -- and straight and gay men and women. I feel for all of us here -- and keep all of us in my prayers.


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I have followed your sitch here and there I have some time today so I will head over and catch up on yours .... and yeah ... MLC holds no punches and does not care who it is nor who it effects. Like you said ... total 180, and ... the more I read, the more I learn and observe ... its not that I have cracked the Di Vinci Code or anything but there is a vague script, it wasn't till I came across HB 6 stages that things started making sense and I could figure out somewhat of a timeline. I am not sure what one thing triggered it .. but it was BIL incarceration along with my fathers death that happened all about the same time and that's when things really started to move downward. She spewed for a solid year before BD ..... as far as I can tell at the current time she is Replay/Withdrawal. Obtaining that information brought me out of a stuck spot in my journey ... where I thought it was what I did ... sure I contributed don't get me wrong .. but I felt it was 100% my fault and I believe all the spew she had about why we couldn't be together, she hadn't loved me for 2, 4, then 10 years.... the things she said hit hard and hurt ... thankfully I found a Spew-Jacket on sale. laugh


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Yep -- so crazy how similar all of our sitchs are. Of course, we can all recognize our own contributions to issues within our Rs/Ms, but for many of us those issues were not deal-breakers... Just common issues that, had we and our Ws/Hs had the right tools, we could have easily navigated more successfully. But the more I learn, the more I realize that even with the right relationship tools and the best intentions, a MLC can wreck major havoc in the best of Rs/Ms.


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Just commenting on your posts about MLC. Many in my life seem to have no idea just how real MLC is. In the beginning, when I would cry MLC, I would get that pity look of poor Mleigh, looking for something to explain the simple fact that H has fallen out of love with her. Sometimes I myself have wondered, could it be that simple? But, so many don't see the day to day spin we see in our spouses. The change in their eyes, the change in friends, the change towards their own children, the change in spending and material things.... It's when I look at the whole enchilada, that I see this is much deeper than marriage problems. There is more going on here.

I too wonder how many marriages go through this without having the knowledge and support we do? I think it includes all of those divorced people who have told me, they regretted their decision to D, that they wish they had tried harder. I hear it over and over. Without this group, I believe I may have given up by now. I don't know for sure. but I do know this group has given many of us our strength and courage to approach our situations with the utmost goal of coming out of it as better people. For ourselves and our children. We learn to step back and honor our spouse and marriage by giving them the space they so need.

I feel so blessed to have found this comfort zone, for all of us. Hugs!!


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Originally Posted By: mleigh4
Just commenting on your posts about MLC. Many in my life seem to have no idea just how real MLC is. In the beginning, when I would cry MLC, I would get that pity look of poor Mleigh, looking for something to explain the simple fact that H has fallen out of love with her. Sometimes I myself have wondered, could it be that simple? But, so many don't see the day to day spin we see in our spouses. The change in their eyes, the change in friends, the change towards their own children, the change in spending and material things.... It's when I look at the whole enchilada, that I see this is much deeper than marriage problems. There is more going on here.


Thats the thing right there^^ We LBS of the MLC variety are in a tough spot ... not only did the aliens take our spouse ... we can only pick and chose things we can talk about.

In my sitch ....
John-"Hey Cali hows it going with the wife?"
Me "Oh ... pretty rough, she emptied the bank account,moved out into a condo and took everything with her ... is in deep love with her boyfriend, and tells me how much she hates me but I am standing here being the lighthouse"
John-" WTF is wrong with you?"...walks away.

Ok ... I laughed anyways.
Yeah ... I know this is not a widespread deal, only a small percentage (I pray) go through this .. most likely even smaller know about the true MLC ... I mean can you imagine before the internet what people went through?? We have the gift of information, its not a magic bullet in the sense it fixes our WAS ... but it does help us know we are not alone, we have support, and the hidden trick is working on ourselves to come out of this stronger and better than ever.

I've spent all morning getting my paperwork all scanned .. .its set and ready to go. If this is the next step in the process ... so be it I am ready. Its crazy, I actually like having control of my money, I was terrified of this after BD thinking I would never make it. Turns out ... Knowing what I need vs what I want .. I don't want as much anymore, and the irony is God has blessed me with this new job that I am making more. The things I will splurge on now ... its stuff S and I do .. like the Monster Trucks this weekend (Whopping $15/ticket), not a new gadget or some frivolous thing. I am really digging the new CaliGuy and where he is headed.


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You gave me a good laugh. Yes, we have to be careful what we say to people. When we break down the reality of our switch, people look at us like, are you crazy? You put up with this why?

You sound good Cali. You have lots of us here rooting you on. You are handling things with dignity and class. Be proud of yourself.


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Ok, Luke, that made me laugh out loud. My sense of humor takes me a long way in life. If you have ever heard any of my stories when dealing with my MLCer (who by the way, still is the reining champ of craziest MLCer - of which I am so proud. LOL), you would know that I have a really good one.

Yep, praying for you, rooting you on and waiting on the other side with the bacon and coffee...

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Wait, reining champ?? I mean, he's a good one, but champ? I don't talk much about mine, but I *think* I could give you a run for the money... smile (as could many here)

Never mind, it's yours for the taking, uR wink

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I am really digging the new CaliGuy and where he is headed.
Same here. More importantly, so is your son and heck, let's be honest, so is anyone you come into contact with to be sure.

And yeah, nobody would believe the junk of an MLCr or the amount of time it goes on. I got tired of talking about it after a while and that surprised me. Few of the people I interact with get it. Only two people I know do. The rest? They flat out don't get it. And the people here of course. It's an elite club to be sure.

Sadly, it seems the ones that have it the worst are the kids frown That's why we're at the ones to help them. The LBS has that honor.

Is what it is and I wouldn't change a thing. wink

AJ


"Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter" MLK
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Today I am wise, so I am changing myself."
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You're right, AJ. Many here could give my MLCer a run for his money...Ok, yours can have the title. I'm a giver that way. smile

Enjoy! LOL!

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Ok -- if I could reveal ALL of the details here of what my MLCer is doing right now (exactly how far she traveled for this "silent retreat" trip) -- I might be able to give you all a run for your money on craziness! The few people who I have told the truth to have literally laughed out loud and said "Are you serious?! She went where?!" Fortunately -- whether it's the Grace of God helping me or the medication -- I am able to laugh about it as well because it's so freaking absurd.

But back to another point made by CaliGuy here and on my thread...

When we become aware of what this is and what it is doing to our spouse, we have the opportunity to make some lemonade out of some very sour lemons... We can become better, stronger, happier versions of ourselves. We can become better parents. We can become better friends. We can become better spouses/partners -- either for our MLCer if/when they come out of this or for someone else in the future. We don't have to let this defeat us -- although, in the first days after BD many of us do feel as if our world is being ripped apart... especially for those of us who thought we had a really solid, happy marriage. I too am amazed at what I have endured over the past 3 months... I know there is a long road ahead, but I am determined to not let this kill me. I am leaning on God now more than I have in my entire adult life -- and it feels REALLY good. It feels right.

There is a great song by Christina Perri called "I Believe" and at the end of the song there is a line that she repeats that I love so much right now -- because this is how I feel: "This is not the end of me. This is the beginning."


Me 48, Her 50
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Lol ... part of me wants to write a few of the "Epic" moments down .. but then its kinda sad and mean to do so ... but there are times you do have to laugh at a few of the things they do just to stop from getting furious.

So yesterday I TM W telling her I need a copy of our tax returns (One of the items on the Mediation list to provide) She says she does not know where it is .... that I need to contact our accountant .... I thinhk .. ok no problem. Then I am thinking .. is she going through with the mediation or not .. did she pay for it already, I really have no idea what is going on and I smirk .. I have not had a clue with her and MLC'ville since I woke up and realized I inwillingly moved there with her.

So I contact Scott (accountant) and let him know I need a copy, he asks for my addy .. no problem its on its way .. he goes as far to wish me well and good luck. He is her family's acct and from what W said will not be doing my taxes to avoid conflict .. I understand that .. and all good there.

I pick up S and on the way home I get an email from the Mediator .. wanting to schedule the appointments. There are 3 total from what I see. First we both have our own independent one on one meeting ... then the first joint meeting ... and I assume a final meeting that is TBD. Ironically she gives me 2 dates ... first is S B'day (Ummmm yeah ... not going to do that on his birthday tyvm) second is Feb 12th with our joint being sometime on the 16th ... I told her my time on the 12th and said anytime on the 16th which puts the ball in W's court.

Being stubborn I chose to not let it mess with me and S's night .. we went out for dinner, had his favorite dish .. home and watched our shows together. W TM to have him call a bit later as she was jumping in the shower "buring up" .... this has been a health issue for her for some time, ironically one of the catalysts for her leaving (So she said) as I added to the stress causing these issues .... so I imagine the D stress is setting in .. and by the looks of her this morning I dont think I am far off .... she looks stressed.

I got to work, changed my lifeinsurance stuff to draw from my account vs the joint, called on the car insurance that will not be up for review till May, took a delivery out ... and used that chance to stop off at the container I rented out during BD to assess what I had in there (less than I thought/imagined) and to pull out my tools (I can keep those here at the plant) and I pulled out some yard equipment and a lawn mower that I sold to the girl in the office.

All in all ... I am good. My ducks are staying obedient and keeping themselves in a row. I have noticed some emotions that I know I just need to process ... sad/andger/bitter ... not bad but I still need to get through them, I caugh myself saying something to S and thought ... wow .. ok I need to watch that. Self aware, I refuse to get through this anything less than dignified. I know Hurricane Spew is coming, she will not like the settlement agreement, and view me even more as the obstacle in her path.

I think of how adamant she was about trying to get me to believe she is alone (no OM) ... but I know better, I think she may have even told him to cool it so she can get through this, the guilt must be eating at her .. the real her anyways if there is any of that left inside. Just observation/Speculation and ramblings ... have to let it out here ... as I would never share this with anyone.

Finish my lunch and shop for the Apt some more... S and I were talking about it last night, I am not sure who is more excited about it. Its "Our" place I told him, he has started a list of the dinners he wants there, and told me he will wait till we move there and its just us. Kid kills me.


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M16 T26-S8
BD Sept13



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Yea, Luke, those feelings come back around and through for some time. You wouldnt be human if you didnt have them..

Otherwise, you sound great, my friend. Seems like son is doing well, too. Speaks volumes about you that he is.

And yea, watch those comments...thats still his mommy. He will appreciate it in the years to come. Trust me on that.

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I agree, Cali. You sound good and you sound like you're taking care of business. Having it in your mind that you'll get through with dignity and grace? Priceless! I can honestly say that's the right approach, but don't forget you'll be tested along the way smile

uR's right - the feelings come and go. You have tooled up and learned how to deal with them better. Ninja ranking wink They still come and go as you are ready to deal with them (like it or not) and will for a quite some time. But they won't stay long, amigo.

uR - no thanks. I abdicate that and it's all yours. Was just pointing out the similarities in various situations. Don't want people feeling alone in their journey wink

One thing Cali. Keep an eye on what you're sharing with son. I know you know, but wanted to stress how important that is and will continue to be. His mom is oscillating all over the place trying to keep a lid on things. He needs a parent that's engaged and there for him. He will for his life. It shows him how to be a man in this world and a man of God. What he sees from you is important, yeah? smile

AJ


"Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter" MLK
Put the glass down...
"Yesterday I was clever so I wanted to change the world
Today I am wise, so I am changing myself."
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Gotcha Aj. I know you know that is never my intent. smile

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Thank you uR and AJ .... I am not sure if its the fact I am handing the blows better, or maybe its the fact I have taken them so long I am developing MLC Whale-skin-blubber, maybe a bit of both.

Yesterday W TM about her TV .. again not my problem and I have done better about letting her figure her own stuff out. she also TM that she could pick up S .... for whatever reason this week she took time off and stayed home with S, took her car into the mechanic, and somehow was off early friday. I am not sure what she is doing with work ... again ... not my issue just an observation. She then calls ... I thought maybe it was S wanting to talk to me since I didnt pick him up which is a rarity. Was W talking about the TV and the issues ... I have been Mr. Fix-it my whole life ... I have had ... well ask uR ... some issues NOT trying to fix things ... you may laugh but in my office at work I actually have my large Craftsman roll away tool box ... yes .. IN my office laugh .... so after talking to her I realized it was an easy fix (well atleast for me), in the back of my head I asked myself ... if she were just a neighbor how would I handle this? I told her I would swing by on my way to work so her and S would be able to watch a movie.
I arrive ... and she looks a wreck, honestly ... like she is not sleeping or eating. She gives me "the look" .. uh oh .. shields up ... she says "Can I give you a hug?" ... I was like ... WTF? First words out of my mouth, I mean its like they leaped out on their own ... "I don't think that would be appropriate" I am not sure who had the more stunned look on their face .. her or me .. .I gave her a neighbor one arm hug ... as she was crying.... awkward !!!!
So ... moved past that .. onto the TV, I made it a point to have S help, gave him important jobs to do ... got everything all fixed up in about 15 minutes and said goodnight to S. W walks me out .. seriously flashing the big brown eyes, trying to get me to return what I will just call "The love look" ... I held my poker face realizing this is our game .. the push and pull.

She TM thanking me for fixing the TV, made a joke .. I replied with a simple .. "Your Welcome" I worked and .. well Mr Analyzer ... I thought, maybe she is having doubts, she is confused, I think OM is out of the picture but have no idea, I know she seems to be terrified of being alone ... and I realized with the MLC it must be brutal to be trapped alone with your thoughts, I think she is using people .. OM, me, S to avoid actually facing those issues she is going to have to work on to emerge from the fog. Then ... the little scared boy inside is thinking .. maybe she doesn't want D and wants me back ... I hit him in the face with a sledge hammer.

I woke up this morning, just laid there for a bit ... checked my emails, and there it was .. 1 hour old .. confirmation from the Mediator on all our scheduled visits (individual sessions on the 12th, joint on the 16th ... Happy Valentines). I admittedly spun for a bit, sad ... then went to anger .. I said aloud "One minute you want to hug me .. the next you are plotting your divorce?" Again ... I realized that is the scared little boy I babysit from time to time .. hit him in the face a second time with a larger hammer. I jumped on the Harley and rode to the office and it hit me .. that hug to her might be closure, or an "I'm sorry we didn't make it" .... for me its definitely a LL and it means "I love you still, I am trapped in here somewhere don't give up", I just needed to get out .. and get these thoughts down because I need to deal with ^^ this ... its a problem for me and a gateway into the walls of detachment I put up .. she somehow knows this even in MLC-ville.

I pick up S in a few hours, taking him to the Monster Truck event downtown. W asked if she could take S to a birthday party (I had planned on taking him) I told her that would be fine ... but I promised he and I would go bike riding after. She then got a little testy with a "So I can not watch him riding his bike?" .... I wanted to say .. sure you can .. go buy him a bike like I did, as of late she has been refusing to pay for anything like the bike, his baseball, chessclub, math club .. things he has always done but she is to "poor" to afford .. yet was ready to buy a TV on the spot. MLC ... oh how I loath thee. So I told her, as I have in the past, she is free to do as she wants, we will be at the lake, I will be the one scratching my head in confusion.

So that brings me current. Helps just to get this out, release it. I am going to sit alone with God for a bit just to find center as I know I am not there right now. This divorce thing is what she needs, thinking if she is single maybe the guilt wont be so bad, her H is the thing in between her and happiness, I understand that much. I have been following her and her tunnel crawl, if I had to guess ... she is somewhere at the end of replay, withdrawl ... hard to know as she is not really sharing alot of information and I do not see her often.


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M16 T26-S8
BD Sept13



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Actually, I think your wife is still in replay/depression. Others may disagree w/me...but she's still doing some of the replay stuff. She's having a difficult time sleeping. The demons are coming to visit each night when things are quiet. I'm not surprised to read that she looked a wreck. The mask was down and she was vulnerable at that time.

I'm glad you fixed the TV for her. It shows her that you have class and have taken the high road. As for the hug, she was glad you came over and were willing to help her and your son out. They tend to forget themselves at times and do things like hugs or call you by your special pet names.

As for her spending....yep, MLC has a way of creating the urge for spending and they do become selfish in all ways, especially when spending money on others.

I'm sorry you received the mail concerning the mediator. At least you now have some idea of the dates.

Continue to come here and write out your frustrations. It does help to document it all and then a year or so down the road you can come back and see just how far you've come.


Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to.
The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
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Hey Luke, you a Mister Fix-it? Perish the thought. LOL!..Seriously dude, you have tools under your desk? LOL!

I like the way you are stopping yourself from going to a bad place. Good on you.

So, here's my take, for what it's worth. I've been around here for along time. I have seen this many times. When divorce becomes real, it makes them spin. So her asking for a hug, yea, thats part of it.

Part of it is her maybe being not sure a bit. Part of it is that she doesnt want to be alone. Part of it is that she wants to make sure you'll be where you left her. And when you give an indication that you may not be...more spinning.

When they want back in, you know it, without a doubt, or at least you should.

She is a mess, Luke. Must be hard to be her. When I spoke to someone who came through a crisis, he said that he literally felt as if he was losing his mind at times. And yea, say it with me, not your problem right now.

Hurting people hurt people.

So, best to keep those shields up right now. That poor scared little boy is getting the cr@p beat out of him...LOL!

You got this, Luke. Keep going.

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Thank you Job... I think I only watch where she is just so I can decide which shoes to wear with my spew jacket.

Yeah I think you are right, might be replay/depression... I had scheduled to pick S up at 4, she TM a bit ago asking if I wanted to come over, prior to my Jedi training I would have jumped at this, I opted not to, told her I had some errands to run.... Actually went for a ride, spotted a alteration shop... Dropped off my riding jacket to have the zipper replaced... Woohooo!!

W TM during " Ok. I'm not in a good place. Please just come get him. "
I told her I had to go home and then would be over to get him... She replied he is fine, ... Then replied with "How about I just drop him off at the lake and you meet us there? I need to get out. ". Maybe she too checked the email and it's set her off like it did me, or could me her cycle setting in early ... Not sure ... I had my shields charging as I was out on my ride

The ride cleared my head, listened to a sermon the calmed my soul... I have noticed with all this... As you all told me, the feelings and emotions still come... But not as bad and not as long as they once did .... I am so thankful for that ... And the never ending generous support you all give ... Thanks is not close to being enough ... But it's all I can offer at the moment till I find that bacon you all stashed around here somewhere

Last edited by CaliGuy; 01/31/15 11:19 PM.

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Thanks uR

Lol... The tools.. Seriously it's a 5ft roll-away smack dab against a wall in my office like it was an art piece ... I told you.. I can fix anything ... Lmao

Yeah, she must be having doubts and second thoughts .. And I'm sure this will be followed by more, with some lashing out I between to demonize me a bit so it justifies her actions ... That's the trend I've noticed in my own sitch ... And others

She's gonna have to face her stuff ... Meanwhile I plan on writing my Father of the Year acceptance speech because let's face it ... I'm an awesomer talker guy... And S & I have really been having s blast doing the GALs that I sucked him into with me.

I thought about it today, there is literally nothing I can do to help her, that hurts... And more hurt that she was basically stolen from me and S ... No one to blame, it just happened but man it's brutal to watch someone you love hurting as bad as she is... And you can't duct tape them to a chair and say " ok, you are in a tunnel... Here is a cool helmet with a light thingy, here is a shovel, this is a GPS tracker... Dig yourself out in time to join the family for a sane dinner mkay... Thanks"


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I hear you on the hurt you feel that you cant help her. I remember looking at my xh and feeling so badly for him. He was a mess. He was in a frenzy running out to meet the ow. He couldnt find his keys fast enough. But he caught me out of the corner of his eye and thats when I saw it. It was fleeting, but, there. All at once I saw fear and a deep, deep hollowness in his eyes.

While I dont believe I was a true fixer, I did have fixer tendencies to a degree and I ached to try to figure out a way to help in the beginning.

It doesnt work that way, Im afraid. It actually cant work that way. Because we cant possibly know the depth of the demons they are chasing. We cant know because they dont know. They cant come through until they figure it out. When we get involved, we slow down the process.

This is a solo journey of theirs. A really tough one, to be sure. But a necessary one if they ever expect to be whole one day.

So, you can have hope for her and compassion. But you cant do a thing for her.

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Oh ya, she is spinning alright. And once again you handled it with such class. Way to go Cali.

Your description of MLC being in a ditch with a shovel is exactly how I too see it. I see us walking with our S, on a path, then boom, they fall into the ditch. We sit up top, legs dangling, coming up with all sorts of ideas to get them out. But they don't listen, they are too busy digging, looking for all the other possibilities and options in there. They don't see us at the top anymore. This is why it is so important for us to stand up and keep walking on that path. No use just sitting there, who knows which tunnel they will take or when they will come out?? Right?

Sorry to hijack, I just had to share smile


Me 48 H 46 S 11
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H moved out 2/15
-live in the present, enjoy the beauty around and within you, explore your new future-
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Cali your analogy about duck taping them to a chair and giving them the tools they need cracked me up!
You sound good- I know what a tough place you are in but as usual you are recognizing it and regrouping as necessary. Sounds like some great times with your S too- so important!
As far as your W maybe having second thoughts- she may be. But as it seems to be with my H, it's not enough for them to change paths at the moment. And the more I get through this the more I think it's not time for them to change paths yet. They're still squishy in the middle and need some more oven time.

Hang in there dude- keep your spew gear up to specs and at the ready. Once you stand up for yourself in D proceedings the weather gets a bit stormy!

Last edited by daring; 02/02/15 02:54 AM.

Me 41 H 40
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S 19,16, 8 D 13
BD1 dec 2012 not sure going to work
BD2 sep 2013 seeking a D
Filed oct 2013, D Feb 2015
Life is about daring greatly, about being in the arena- Brene Brown
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