Surving the rollercoster

[Mozza]

Hello Karma12 - Thanks for sharing your story. You patience is impressive and inspiring. 2.5 years of separation and apparently a long time reading these boards before registering. It's a good idea to join the conversation with your own journey.

I wish I had advice for you, but you fall into my blind spot. If you followed my sitch, you'll know that I can't resist being nice to my WAW when she's nice in return. I'm told repeatedly to cut her off so she feel the loss of me or at least no endorsement of her A.

I like how your H is getting closer to you, but I really don't get why he's keen to see other people especially after his failed experiment with his girlfriend. He seems to realize your worth and what you bring to him, yet the idea of having casual sex seems to be overwhelmingly attractive to him. Go figure. I'm wondering if he's worth the fight? What happened to you in these 2.5 years? Met anyone interesting? Went on a few dates?

By the way, I suggest you separate your entries into shorter paragraphs to make it easier to read and engage more people. Also, add the basic information to your signature, like mine.

Welcome aboard.

[25yearsmlc]

Karma

I'll finish reading your thread tomorrow if possible. For now let me ask you to write in much smaller paragraphs. It's a lot easier to read, at least for me.

Plus if I use your quotes, it's easier for both of us.

Have you READ the Divorce Busting or Divorce Remedy BOOK(S)?


You must. Period. They form the basis of the approach we take and the book (either or both, but the Div Remedy book is the later edition, arguably better)

has terms and techniques referred to here. But if you have not read the books, the comments here will only help you half as much.

(Besides, there are some who ask, "if someone won't take the time to read a book about how to save themselves AND their marriage, how dedicated can they be?")

What you read here will make a lot more sense once you've read one of the 2 books. Also, I suggest you consider these "rules" below which sandi assembled. They are based on the books and the Solution based philosophy espoused by the author of the books, Michelle Wiener-Davis, (aka 'MWD".)
I used "quotes" around the word "rules" b/c these are GUIDELINES and Not all of them will apply to each situation.

Some guidelines will evolve as your situation evolves, etc. So, use it as a Guide to live by while you figure out what's going on in your situation. It's not a code that you must rigidly apply to any/all events and interactions with your spouse, okay?

I copied and laminated this, and held it in my pocket for months. I read it DAILY. You may want to do the same.


1.Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or implore! This turns the spouse completely off!

2. No frequent phone calls to spouse.......let him/her be the one to call you. Then don't try to hang on to your spouse through conversation.....instead, you say good-bye first.

3. Do not point out good points in marriage or try to get him/her to read marriage books, look at your M pictures, etc. Especially, do not get him/her to read the DB/DR book. That is for you only!

4. Do not follow your spouse around the house like a puppy dog trying to get his/her time and attention.

5. Do not encourage talk about the future. They don't want to think about a future with you at the moment, so stay clear of that subject.

6. Do not ask for help from family members or friends. Don't discuss private matters with them that would upset your spouse.

7. Do not ask for reassurances (That is showing neediness and being clingy.) Show self-respect and self confidence.

8. Do not buy gifts to make "brownie points". (Can't buy his/her love and affection.)

9. Do not schedule dates together at this point. (That is pursuing.) Save for later when the R is much better.

10. Do not spy on spouse by checking emails, phone bills, etc. (Not good for you and will make matters worse.)

11. Do not say "I Love You" (It is being "pushy" and trying to make your spouse say it back to you......he/she will despise you for it.)

12. Act "as if" you are moving on with your life with or without them and that you are going to be okay. Keep a good attitude.

13. Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive at all times! In other words, be the best you can be and look the best you can look at all times. Even when wearing jeans and T-shirt, wear good cologne, b/c it does cause the spouse to take notice.

14. Don't sit around waiting on your spouse to see what kind of mood he/she is in or what he/she is going to do or say – get busy, think of things to do. Go to church, go out with friends, etc. in order to get a life for yourself without waiting on your wife/husband.....but it is okay to invite them, just don't act as if it will change your plans if they do or don't go.

15. When at home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation---then don't, wait for him/her) then, be rather scarce or with your words, but don't sound rude or too short like you are mad. If your spouse asks what's wrong....just say "nothing" and have a pleasant expression on your face. Keep it short and simple. Don't get into an argument! Stay polite and don’ t act like you are pouting. Use poise and class. This does not mean to act like you aren’t speaking, but don’t be overly talkative.

16. If you are in the habit of asking your spouse his/her whereabouts, ASK THEM NOTHING!! No matter what time he/she comes home! You are giving them space and asking no questions! You enjoy your time with your kids, friends, etc. Remember, you are getting a life, also.

17. You need to make your partner think that you have had an awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you are going to move on with your life, with or without your spouse.

18. Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull back and wait to see if spouse notices and, more important, realize what he/she will be missing. (But never ask him/her if he/she has noticed any changes!!) This is important! If you do, then you have blown it.

19. No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment. This can confuse some of them b/c it is not what they expected. Show your spouse someone he/she would want to be around all the time, somebody that can be attractive and fun to be with. That somebody is you! Don't overkill in your attempts to outshine another person your spouse may be having an A with (if there is OP in the picture) to the point of looking like your attempts are "fake" b/c your spouse will see through all of that.

20. All questions about marriage should be put on hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may be a while) so this takes patience on your behalf.

21. Never lose your cool! Don't let your spouse trap you into a fight. Don't take her/his bait.....leave the room or the house for a while, if you have to, in order to avoid a fight.

22. Don't be overly enthusiastic, don't over-kill; in anything you do b/c it will come across as fake.

23. Do not argue about how your spouse feels about something (it only makes his/her feelings more negative.) Only they know how they feel!

24. Be patient......very, very patient. Give your spouse space and time. When you pull back, it will draw them towards you. It feels opposite of what you want to do, but it works!

25. Listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you. Look them in the eyes when they talk to you. Do not interrupt them when they are speaking and stop what you may be working on to look at them when they talk. This shows them that you really care about what they are saying.

26. Learn to back off, shut up and walk away when you want to speak out (or scream and yell). Sometimes the right thing to say is nothing.

27. Take care of yourself (exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil). This is for your health's sake.

28. Be strong and confident and learn to speak softly. Read self help books, inspirational books or listen to tapes. They are for you only.

29. Know that if you can do 180's, your smallest CONSISTENT actions will be noticed much more than any words you can say or write.

30. Do not be openly show that you are "desperate" or "needy" even when you are hurting more than ever and truly feel desperate and needy. This is a large turn-off for your spouse.

31. Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse, instead, focus on them.

32. Do not believe any of what you hear and less than 50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives because he/she is hurting and scared.

33. Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel.

34. Do not ask your spouse if he/she has noticed your changes. Those changes are for you and for the rest of your life...with or without your spouse. If it is just to get your spouse back...they won't last and the same problems will return.

35. Do not send several TM's or emails throughout the day unless absolutely necessary.

36. It is best to stay away from the bar scenes where other problems easily arise.

37. Do not backslide from your hard earned changes.

38. Know that in time, you really will be happy again, regardless of your spouse’s choices. Know this, believe it, and let it show.

39. Do not believe that showing your spouse your pain and misery proves your love for them. It just makes it harder to be around you.

40. Don’t worry about how the past is viewed. What matters is this day and “from this day forward.” Learn to let go of the past and what you cannot control. It’s a lot to let go of, but it is freeing.

[Ahoy]

Honestly, if I were you, after 2.5 years of separation and H living with another person, I would probably be done. But you are more patient it seems. But do you really want this person in your life? Really?
Either way, now is the time to do NC. He has to know that he WILL lose you if he continues down this path of casual dating. Only the fear of truly losing you might wake him up. Also, I wouldn't recommend this under most circumstances, but in your case I would say that now is the time for you to try dating.
He wants to date? So should you. See what your options are. You might be surprised that there are wonderful men who are not going to emotionally abuse you out there. Men that will value you. Also, this might wake him up to the reality that you are not sitting around just pining away for him. But that should not be the reason you date. The reason you date is to GAL and see how you really feel about H. Your perception might change. After 2.5 years, it's time to try something new, I'd say.

[25yearsmlc]

Karma,

Hello, welcome to the best place to be for a lousy reason.

I read your whole thread (turns out it's not very long when seen in total).

Ahoy has a great point. Plus you have enough insight into this process AND your own personal history thus far, to know that dropping the rope really TRULY must happen now.

YOU WROTE:

"He said he didn't have a girlfriend but had been on a few dates in Dec with someone. She had no expectations and that's what he wants. To do his own thing. No expectations. I listened, validated."

I don't know what or how one validates a h dating OWS and Not expecting expectations...

He's saying in effect, that he wants to cake eat. At least he's honest about it.
While I've seen a lot around here these many years, I won't pretend to be a MC.

I'm just a DBer who had things go her way, after learning through many many mistakes on my end and finally HEARING what people were telling me, enough to implement it.

Can you allow him to cake eat, with the proviso that he's NOT likely to want to commit to you again, ever?

B/C that IS an option for some people. What if you decided that a weekend "bf" is something you could handle from your ex h?

You can decide that Karma. You really can. I know how it sounds, but hey, it is what you have now except you haven't joined his bed. So I ask, why not?

I'm serious and I'm not being snarky. I'm simply asking you to dig deep and decide if you can "casually" (or not so casually) date your ex h,

while knowing he'll date OWs and he may "fall" in love with one of them and then you'd probably lose him totally.

Because if you know that you cannot do this^^, IF you realize you only coped with the past 2 years b/c you assumed things were improving and moving towards a truly restored marriage,

then you must accept that you were mistaken. He's NOT interested in being married to you enough at this time, to choose you. And he hasn't been for the past 2 years.

That might sound like a death knell of the R to you. It's not.

So far, you simply don't know what he fears or risks or is willing to risk, b/c thus far, he's pretty much known you are around and as you say, "passively pursuing" him. Another way of saying that is you are "waiting" for him.

The only route you have NOT truly given your attention to, is moving on.

You can move on and not "give up". in 2006 I believed my m was over. I told my sisters there was a "10% chance of us making it" and I came to accept that. I also changed a lot and felt pretty happy about where my new life was heading.

I felt that h was losing a lot more than me in the end and that I'd be more than alright. I also dated and met 2 attractive men who were good company. Though in the end most of the dating confirmed for me that h was a well suited mate, it also reassured me that I would not be "all alone" if we divorced. That removed a lot of the sting and fear...I felt empowered by this.

But you have to move on as if you are an "aunt" to SD. And an old friend of his -- you can be warm, upbeat, busy GAL and happy

and NOT with him. I would date AND OR act as if I am, if I were you.

The only thing that's not happened in your situation to know if there's a way to get him to commit, is for you to let him know (thru actions NOT words)

that he's losing you to OMs --b/c he won't do what OM's do every day, the mature thing which is to CHOOSE.

I see your ex as having these options...

1) "I'm an adult and thus, I cannot always 'just date'. I must make a choice at some point in life. Karma's the best I'll ever hope to do. I choose to commit to her AND I'll keep my commitment."

[[ ** I don't think he'll make this^^ choice unless he feels the cost of Not making it, i.e. losing you for good AND to OM. For some reason, a lot of men get awakened/competitive when OMs are around. Many don't wake up til then. Maybe nothing is as attractive to them, as a woman they cannot have...]]

OR

2) "I will keep Karma as the 'aunt' to my sd and friend --but I like playing the field and or looking for younger OWs, so this is as much as she and I will have and I'll stay on my hunt"

AND OR

3) "I'll keep on eating cake b/c I'd bet Karma will take me back in the event I change my mind later. Why wouldn't she? She's not dating anyone. So there's no one treating her better. AND

We get along and she loves SD--which I am subconsciously using against her b/c I know she's still in love with me--AND I can keep dating around, having sex with whomever and maybe, just maybe, in my 'shopping around', I'll find someone better/younger/newer, who 'makes me feel' better about myself.

THEN - I'll commit...to OW, to the extent I'm capable of."

Karma, drop the rope big time. Do you want to know how or do you have that?

Also, please let me know what your 180s and GAL are.

You seem to intuitively get a lot of this DB stuff. However, in terms of concrete actions and following the "formula" (= just a guideline, and it evolves just like our r's do. So nothing need be rigidly followed unless you put it as your "DB approach")

I'm not sure what your 180s are. Maybe that's what you are asking?

Without knowing that, here are my suggestions.

Keep doing whatever personal work you are doing, like working on temper or organizational skills or whatever his complaints about you were, that you think were valid, keep doing.

This way, he'll know the marriage he left would be an improved marriage if he were to truly return. Because No WAS returns to a marriage they left,

unless....they believe that marriage can be better/different than before.

Your job is to show that it can be. Was your love life something that could use a bit more spark? What is it that you believe YOU must work on?

And open your mind to the possibility that while you could tweak a few things some more - he may be one of those guys who CANNOT or WILL NOT commit and keep his vows. Ever. (He did not marry the mother of his only child. That says something.)

So if he's not capable of fidelity, determine now how you feel about that.

And IF he is capable, we won't know that until he sees the true cost of Not being faithful, which is losing the best thing to ever happen to him; you.

Til you are ready to let him lose you, (or at least act like it),

you probably can't know if he can really be faithful to you long term. He sure isn't in a hurry to make anything happen with your r, either way. That's not adult behavior. He's not making a choice. Do you see that? His choice" is to Not make a choice. His "choice" is to stay in neutral and not get in gear. Even for his D, whom he probably feels he has served well, by inserting you into her life. Like HE did her a favor there...

Sorry Karma...that might hurt a lot to hear. Hey, at least you two don't hate each other and you have a lovely SD in your life.

Other suggestions:

Be a lot more mysterious, GAL big time, be a bit distant --- b/c you are always on your "way out to meet a new interesting person, go to a fascinating place and OR doing something FUN"....!!

Remember that "rule" that says YOU have had an awakening. YOU ARE DIFFERENT.

(Hey, that = "new and shiny"...might be sparkling enough for him to investigate a woman like...you).

Figure out for real, if YOU really want HIM as your partner. How much unreliability can you handle? And deceit? What about that?

I'm Not saying "go get your anger back"!! I'm saying "from this day forward, what can you handle from him, long term?"

You need to know that pretty darn soon, b/c you have already invested a lot of time, in a R that has stalled.

Please Keep posting and keep on keeping on.

[Karma12]

Wow thanks for the amazing responses. Mozzarella, Ahoy and 25yrs. sorry for the Long thread. It was a long story and difficult to make more concise. Lol

To clarify, when we won custody of my SD it was only a year before we split up. It was the only real family she had known. She was so upset when I left that she slept with me every night in the weeks before and was unable to go to school for two days after being told. My H father died a year before we split and he truly appears to be in a MLC. The therapist that my SD was seeing during the the year falling our told my H after we spit up that he wasn't engaging with his daughter so it was no wonder he wasn't engaing well with me. She told him SD would be very upset by our split. H behaved totally like a man in MLC he was not spending the time with SD he should have after fighting to win custody. If I was to decide if he was the man I wanted in my life based on the last three years I would say No. I honestly felt like I didn't know the man he was during this time. Since the summer I have seen more of the man I used to know and that in part is what was drawing me closer. He has been making more efforts with my SD and was I thought getting closer to me too. There was no lack of physical connection in our marriage. H has said he still attracted to me in that way. I thought we were moving slowly in a positive direction.


I agree with what you said 25ys he is wanting to cake eat. There is no urgency or fear of loss because he thinks I'm still here if he decides to recommitt. I really got that message when we talked. What I meant in regards to validating is he used to accuse me in the past of lecturing him. This time when we talked I listened to what he said without lecturing and I validated a couple of things he brought up about our past life. I get the mindset of a WAS because I was one. I left my first marriage after 11yrs. My four kids were 3-9. I was single for 10 yrs before meeting my present H.

You all asked if I have dated and yes I have been on a few dates. I havent met anyone that I felt a spark with yet. I'm quite happy doing my own thing but would like to eventually have someone in my life again. I do believe that at the right time the right person will walk into my life. I just have to stay open so I recognise it when it happens.

I have read DR at least three times as well as many, many other books. I have also read a lot on these boards and I do understand most of the lingo. I think that I've read DB many years ago when it first came out too. As far as GAL. I live in a very cool condo in a village kind of concept. It's in an outdoor mall with all the shops below the condos. Helps prevent the feeling of isolation as there are coffee shops and people everywhere, I walk to do most of my shopping. My gym is across the parking lot. I go to the gym often, run outside 3-4 times a week and practice hot yoga 4 times a week. I go out for dinner or drinks with friends or family. I like to hike, ski ( I'm a real novice) snowshoe travel. I went on a cruise last year and I am planning two trips this year. I haven't stopped living my life.

Our marriage went down fast and suddenly. I had no choice but to put on my big girl panties and move forward. It was not easy but I did it with dignity and grace. I knew intuitively that Hubby needed to walk alone and had some self discovery to do. I was more of a distant neighbor up until the last four months. Only chatting about SD and not spending time together other than a quick exchange. He initially was the one making efforts to get closer which I respnded to. I thought the fog was lifting I'm still single so maybe? Neither of us had filed for divorce.

25yrs I think your are correct and my struggles have been with the 180's. I agree I have to drop the rope and show through my actions. I tend to feel the need to explain myself. I am not interested in dating H if he wants to date others. The flirting between us and the time spent is not what I will be doing going forward. He told me he thinks I'm amazing, I've always taken care of myself, I'm attractive, fit, funny, caring. A year ago he forgot all of those things. He had me packed away. I guess I got my hopes up seeing some changes coming from him.

Opps getting long winded again! Lol thanks again for the feedback I really appreciate it.

[Karma12]

Mozza,

I just re read your post. I have read your thread and will go back and check it out again. I have been more friendly with my H because I thought we were moving towards reconnecting. Previous to the last four months I was not unfriendly just more friendly neighbor like. I won't be as friendly now and will be going back to being friendly neighbor. Otherwise I will be letting my H cake eat. Why would he move forward if I'm giving him all he needs without having too. I know that if I ever want a committed relationship with H. I won't get it continuing as I have. Now I need to pull back and drop the rope. When you are engaing with your W leave her wishing she could have more time with her. If you tell yourself ( when you catch yourself)!being "too" friendly that you are actually preventing her from missing you and prolonging the process it may help you be more of a friendly neighbor. Ask yourself if I text, call, chat too long am I getting closer to my goal or am I actually pushing my goal further away. That short term gain feeling you get from contact won't help in the long run. ; )

[Karma12]

I'm off to GAL now. Taking my dog for a run and going to hot yoga. Cheers!

[Little]

HOT YOGA. Love it. I know it's temperature hot, but it makes me think of something else. LOL.

Have fun!

[Karma12]

Little you made me laugh! I could use a little of the other Hot too. Wink wink. Lol
I have this problem called personal values that stops me from having casual relationships.

25 yrs I have am rereading your post and each time getting more out of it. I know and knew already a lot of what you are saying. It is helpful having someone else say it.

Just back from my run. The one benefit of being on my own is I can do what I want when I want. Hot Yoga is at 8pm. a great way to finish the day.

[Karma12]

Back from Hot yoga.....always feel better after.

I'm pretty sure my H was in a depression when we split. He was checked out of life ( other than work) not just me. He had stopped seeing his friends, stopped seeing his sister. ( parents are both gone as are mine) He didn't go out and GAL. He was never as active or social as I was but he literally was spending every day in his office in our basement from the am until 8pm other than picking up SD from school. I was the one being the parent to SD and taking care of everything around the house. We had gone to an Xmas party at his friends and he withdrew and was down in there basement with all the teens. He shut down from life. I was worried and had tried to get him to do things and spend more time with me and SD. He had lost his job as a broker and I think this took away part of his identity. He took a job ( without telling me) that involved travelling to Eastern Europe for ten days every six weeks. Every time he went I felt he was moving further and further away from me. I felt like a switch went off in him and he had shut off emotionally when it came to me. I was very confused and hurt. We had finally got SD and the family he wanted and he checked out.

He has said that he knew I wasn't happy and figured I was going to eventually leave so he detached. His only complaints were that I nagged him too much. I reminded him when we had coffee the other day of all the things I had suggested to try and keep us connected that he had dismissed. I told him how I had worried about him and felt the emotional switch off. He said you know you did try and I wasn't . Most of all of our problems are my fault. I'm not proud of my behavior and I don't know why I did some of the things I did. You didn't deserve it. I think I am in a MLC.

When we chatted a few days ago at coffee it is the first time he has ever teared up when it came to me. I could see his confusion and he was not making sense. I want to date others and not have to have any expectations. I want you in my life I still have feelings for you, I am still physically attracted to you. I've thought of us getting back together. I'm scared of failing. I don't want to hurt you again. You were my rock. I don't want to be strangers. I want to know what's happening in your life.

I left him with some food for thought as well as I have been thinking about what he said. He knows I've been on a few dates but has not had to face me moving on with someone else. He does still have a way to go out of his MLC tunnel. I see that. I will be pulling right back and will be more mysterious.