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There was one gem in there though.

W felt like a second class citizen around you. Think maybe it's time to address the judgement thing?

Mr class offered his number, if I were you, I would ring and reach out.

Vanilla


Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose.
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Vanilla,

Thanks, I'm really starting to think that was what happened. I think that W really didn't know what was involved with parenting and saw MCS attentive and self satisfied as a dad, but W never seemed to 'settle' in to being a mom. W was a great mom, but struggled with her own individuality during it. Then, MCS was satisfied with his job, but W was not in hers (always had friendly competition between us.) Then W got overwhelmed and saw MCS just peachy keen in the M (around same time as friendship with OM.) That's when the resentment started. MCS made some changes once he found W was struggling, but not enough to counteract the resentment and blossoming A with OM. OM had focus on W and was just her and him having fun.

Some of this below was confirmed by W, but there has to be more than she said.

MCS thinks A went too far emotionally and W took it to the final level physically (she denies this.) MCS still peachy keen in M, but W makes a decision to be 'happy' with OM. Asks OM about it, OM says no thanks. Then W feels guilty around peachy keen MCS and is still trying to get OM to change his mind. Drops bomb on MCS and normally confident MCS is a puddle in the corner. W sees best of both worlds, show OM how much she wants R and not totally destroy or wait to see how MCS reacts to news of OM.

W leaves MCS and tries to continue to court OM. MCS finds out about OM, confronts W and says, we can still work through this. Well, W is still in fantasy land and also feels she's too far into this to situation, it's easier to continue W's current path.

Then MCS detaches, gets business and shows W MCS is moving on. W gets cold dose of reality now she's on her own for a while. Gets mad at MCS because he's just fine and W is not and then realizes how much MCS actually cared about her. W gets enough IC to come to grips with going back on her decision. MCS is a changed man, understanding that he was a good guy, but complacent in making sure W was happy in M. W realizes her M was really good and her unhappiness was within. W courts MCS, he's skeptical, but hopeful. After a period, MCS realizes that W has changed and is back to being comfortable with herself and her marriage. Sweet music, sunsets, closing credits.

(Okay, last paragraph was made up, but I needed something to make me feel better as I sit in the house with rooms with no furniture. I know the 'man above' is reading this and I want to remind him what MCS did tonight with OM and yesterday with helping W move, just in case he forgot.....)

Okay, so I guess I'm not totally detached yet.


M:36 W:37
T: 15 M:11
S6 D5
BD: 8/10/14
IDLY: 8/12/14
S: 8/13/14 (she left, I stayed w/ kids)
D Mentioned: 10/15/14
Confronted about OM: 10/15/14
EA: ~4/13 PA: ~10/13
She filed: 8/15 (not final)
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Posts: 545
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Vanilla,

Okay a cross post, but I'd like to understand what you saw that made you ask that question about judgement in the first place. Was it me questioning the decisions she's making?

I guess, I've been thinking about it and don't see it directly from me or how I think, with the following exception. When I'm comfortable with people, I do like to interact with constructive criticism, because that's how I like people to interact with me. If they have an opinion, then let me know. I've done that a lot with DB, get some range of inputs from people some pretty harsh and then make my own decisions.

I'm thinking that maybe the judgement thing would manifest itself when I don't have a good read with the person I'm interacting with and where they stand. At that point the constructive part of the criticism could be received as just criticism. My W and I always used this communication technique and we were both really open about saying what we thought. Well, if her self esteem was dropping, then she could see my communication with her as demeaning/demanding and not constructive.

I'll stress, that I don't see anything too extreme in my interactions with her or anyone. It would be something like this (a common discussion in our R)

"Hey, W what's planned for the weekend"
"MCS, I was going to go out with friends on Saturday night"
"Well, you went out the other day and I just did the bedtimes for the kids that night when you were out doing XYZ, could you go out earlier or wait until after bedtimes?"
"I guess, but I already told them that I was going to go out with them, I'll tell them you said no."
"W, that bothers me when you do that, because it makes me look like the bad guy, can you ask me before you make plans?"
"Sure, I guess"

Anyway, you can see I was 'debating' and I thought she was too, but it was times like this that she told me that I was making her feel guilty about spending time away from the family.


M:36 W:37
T: 15 M:11
S6 D5
BD: 8/10/14
IDLY: 8/12/14
S: 8/13/14 (she left, I stayed w/ kids)
D Mentioned: 10/15/14
Confronted about OM: 10/15/14
EA: ~4/13 PA: ~10/13
She filed: 8/15 (not final)
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Posts: 8,855
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OK , MCS, I was waiting for you to ask, about judgement, perhaps it's because I was nearly a WAW myself that I have some insight into this,, so I am going to call it as I see it and I am going to move into W position as the first.

I will write as if I were W for a short while.


Originally Posted By: MCS
Vanilla,

I think that W really didn't know what was involved with parenting and saw MCS attentive and self satisfied as a dad, but W never seemed to 'settle' in to being a mom. W was a great mom, but struggled with her own individuality during it.

H you are judging me, how do you know what I feel about parenting? Perhaps I didn't want to settle as a mother, perhaps I also wanted to be W. I want to fit my own image as a W and a person not yours. I weighed myself ok. Did you want me to fit my own image as a mother or yours?

Then, MCS was satisfied with his job, but W was not in hers (always had friendly competition between us.)

Perhaps I did not want a friendly competition, perhaps my relationship was the one place I wanted to let loose and not be in competition. Perhaps I wanted to be validated, loved and to let go. Instead I felt you were weighing me against yourself.

Then W got overwhelmed and saw MCS just peachy keen in the M (around same time as friendship with OM.) That's when the resentment started. MCS made some changes once he found W was struggling, but not enough to counteract the resentment and blossoming A with OM. OM had focus on W and was just her and him having fun.

Perhaps for once I felt that I was not judged. I don't care whether I measure up or not. Whether in your eyes I am an 8 out of 10 or a 3 out of 10. Just quit evaluating how I am, just doing this makes me feel scruntised. I think I walk on egg shells.

Some of this below was confirmed by W, but there has to be more than she said.

MCS thinks A went too far emotionally and W took it to the final level physically (she denies this.) MCS still peachy keen in M, but W makes a decision to be 'happy' with OM. Asks OM about it, OM says no thanks. Then W feels guilty around peachy keen MCS and is still trying to get OM to change his mind. Drops bomb on MCS and normally confident MCS is a puddle in the corner. W sees best of both worlds, show OM how much she wants R and not totally destroy or wait to see how MCS reacts to news of OM.

Perhaps, perhaps not. You can think what you like about this but you are reading my mind. Perhaps I just want to be in a safe place, a saner place, or maybe I am really in love or infatuated. At this point I don't care what it is, it's different.

W leaves MCS and tries to continue to court OM. MCS finds out about OM, confronts W and says, we can still work through this. Well, W is still in fantasy land and also feels she's too far into this to situation, it's easier to continue W's current path.

gracious, now this is going to get worse for me. I have dared to get an improved position in my life and if I go back then I will be in the dog house. Will this be in my life forever. I am not in a fantasy land and even if I were that has to be a better place than I was.

Then MCS detaches, gets business and shows W MCS is moving on. W gets cold dose of reality now she's on her own for a while. Gets mad at MCS because he's just fine and W is not and then realizes how much MCS actually cared about her.

I have never really doubted that MCS cares about me, but he evaluates me and measures me, reads my mind. I don't like it and I have said so on several occasions, am I being heard yet? How loud to I have to shout this? I need to stay away as I am uncomfortable and now I guess it could get worse.

W gets enough IC to come to grips with going back on her decision.

Yes, but I don't know if I will or not. Is it safe, if I do will I always feel evaluated on this along with everything else?

MCS is a changed man, understanding that he was a good guy, but complacent in making sure W was happy in M.

OK but is it enough, will it be reversed and how do I know that I can go back and be OK? Perhaps some things will change but will I feel that I am MCS W, an equal in my M, accepted for me?.

W realizes her M was really good and her unhappiness was within.

yes obviously, but there were causes too.

W courts MCS, he's skeptical, but hopeful. After a period, MCS realizes that W has changed and is back to being comfortable with herself and her marriage. Sweet music, sunsets, closing credits.

Perhaps MCS has changed too?

(Okay, last paragraph was made up, but I needed something to make me feel better as I sit in the house with rooms with no furniture. I know the 'man above' is reading this and I want to remind him what MCS did tonight with OM and yesterday with helping W move, just in case he forgot.....)

Okay, so I guess I'm not totally detached yet.

No MCS I think you are very attached. If you were detached there would be no judgement of Me, no evaluation . on ordinary things, there would only be love and love needs no judgement. MCS would leave his judgements at the door.


MCS whether your judgement gives W a Full score or a minus one, relate to W with full active love and acceptance. Not attachment.

Of course my comments above are about how I, Vanilla would feel as W, it is only Vs interpretation and there are many others. They won't be Ws actual feelings and thoughts of course, but it's what I see and saw. It is uncomfortable to do this as it brings up some of my own feelings about being judged and criticised and ideally I would recommend that you see this in W shoes for yourself. I do so from a good place so I want us to be good on it. So take what you will from it.

MCS I know you are thoughtful and I was expecting you to keep on thinking about this as something obviously resonated. It is just my view. You are in my thoughts and prayers.

Just one final thought: a grey bedroom? How warm would that be to returnt to?

Your friend Vanilla

Last edited by Vanilla; 12/20/14 10:33 AM.

Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose.
V 64, WAW


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Vanilla,

MCS is picking his jaw up from the ground and crying his eyes out right now. You said some of the exact things she said to me. So its easier for me if I talk to Vanilla as I would love to talk with my W.......

I understand what you are saying here, but I don't understand 'why' you are saying it. That's what I don't get, why do you feel that way. I'm not trying to judge, I really am not. How do I show acceptance about things, yet still actively participate in working things out; accept things but still have the opportunity to voice my concerns. How do we have open communication? I never meant to judge you. I've always seen you as my equal in life, we complelented each other. I thought we would talk about things and come to a consensus together. We used to do that before kids and life caught up with us and I don't know what changed that we can't don't it anymore. I don't want to do that anymore if that makes you unhappy. I want you to be happy, I want you to be comfortable. What can I do to help you feel that way?

__________________

Wow, just wow Vanilla. It stings, because for the first time I can see someone in my wife's shoes. I never thought she felt this way until after she left and it is so painful seeing someone else feel that way to. What can I do now about it.

What happened to you, Vanilla that you didn't become a WAW?

How do I change this?

I think I did okay with W the last couple days, but I'm struggling with discussing arrangements about kids with W. I'm deeply hurt with what she did to the kids and I'm trying to balance that out with her desires for what she wants with them. I don't agree, but I'm scared to tell he that because of how she's been feeling throughout this, just like you have above. How do we have that conversation and me discuss my feelings about the kids and not show judgement?

Vanilla, thank you so much for this....please help me change


M:36 W:37
T: 15 M:11
S6 D5
BD: 8/10/14
IDLY: 8/12/14
S: 8/13/14 (she left, I stayed w/ kids)
D Mentioned: 10/15/14
Confronted about OM: 10/15/14
EA: ~4/13 PA: ~10/13
She filed: 8/15 (not final)
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 545
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Also,

it was a gray bathroom, not bedroom. You got me thinking on that one. I wasn't going to do it this week anyway and I can't stand painting smile


M:36 W:37
T: 15 M:11
S6 D5
BD: 8/10/14
IDLY: 8/12/14
S: 8/13/14 (she left, I stayed w/ kids)
D Mentioned: 10/15/14
Confronted about OM: 10/15/14
EA: ~4/13 PA: ~10/13
She filed: 8/15 (not final)
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 1,720
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Originally Posted By: Vanilla

Of course my comments above are about how I, Vanilla would feel as W, it is only Vs interpretation and there are many others. They won't be Ws actual feelings and thoughts of course, but it's what I see and saw. It is uncomfortable to do this as it brings up some of my own feelings about being judged and criticised and ideally I would recommend that you see this in W shoes for yourself. I do so from a good place so I want us to be good on it. So take what you will from it.


Thanks Vanilla for your insights - we can only comment from our own perspective but i found around the boards when someone with similar experience is able to communicate how they would have felt it gives us a much better chance at having the empathy we really need to understand how we need to change.

I'm glad you posted this as it helps me as well


Both mid 30s, 2 young kids
BD 7sep14
XW moved on long ago, now living with OM1
D paperwork in progress
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Originally Posted By: MCS
Vanilla,

MCS is picking his jaw up from the ground and crying his eyes out right now. You said some of the exact things she said to me. So its easier for me if I talk to Vanilla as I would love to talk with my W.......

I understand what you are saying here, but I don't understand 'why' you are saying it.
because that is how I feel. My feelings are my feelings to understand not yours. Stop, manage your own feelings. Just validate "W these are your feelings and you are entitled to have them, and I may never understand and it's ok."

That's what I don't get, why do you feel that way.
because I do, and perhaps I may never know myself

I'm not trying to judge, I really am not.
then stop mentioning it and quizzing me. It makes me feel judged which is also my feeling

How do I show acceptance about things,
STFU about it, just trust me to handle it.

yet still actively participate in working things out;
stick to your own feelings, I guess you have lots of those. Stop managing mine

accept things but still have the opportunity to voice my concerns.
Voice your concerns is right and I will voice mine

How do we have open communication?
Not at the moment thank you. Things aren't clear enough for me. When and if I am ready I"ll let you know

I never meant to judge you.
May be you didn't, but I felt as if you did. More validation and STFU. Stop trying to control my feelings, they are mine

I've always seen you as my equal in life, we complelented each other.
maybe, but what about what I thought?

I thought we would talk about things and come to a consensus together.

Maybe, but how much of my views did you take into account? Perhaps it's my fault and I should have held out for what I wanted more.

We used to do that before kids and life caught up with us and I don't know what changed that we can't don't it anymore.
I am not in that place

I don't want to do that anymore if that makes you unhappy.
there you go trying to manage my feelings.

I want you to be happy, I want you to be comfortable.
that's good, I want to be happy and comfortable

What can I do to help you feel that way?
Nothing, they are my feelings. Don't do anything. Manage your own. Validate me, accept me and let me have my own feelings

__________________

Wow, just wow Vanilla. It stings, because for the first time I can see someone in my wife's shoes. I never thought she felt this way until after she left and it is so painful seeing someone else feel that way to. What can I do now about it.

DB in all its glory. Validate Ws feelings and STFU

What happened to you, Vanilla that you didn't become a WAW?
I was so close to it, but I am older, in a shorter M, I have the 12 steps and I found DB

How do I change this?
By standing, stop judging others, reading improving. This applies to the guys at work, the dreadful driver on the road, MIL, OM, S, the cleaner.

I do think this is an easy change to make, it's one of realisation, when you catch yourself being critical of another person for who they are, realise that it's none of your business.

Manage the behavioural interaction (boundary) not the person. Never judge feelings, there are really no such things as feelings just states of mind and body. In fact the body can only really have one state at a time. So if you are in a judgement angry or critical state, go do something that changes it. And I don't mean toys and prams, I mean dance, paint, run, hug your S.


I think I did okay with W the last couple days, but I'm struggling with discussing arrangements about kids with W.

the vets will help you with this more, but they do say be friendly and matter of fact

I'm deeply hurt with what she did to the kids.
Stop, reflect, don't judge.

and I'm trying to balance that out with her desires for what she wants with them.
thats her place to know, do what you want to do and that is enforce proper boundaries

I don't agree,
that is your right

but I'm scared to tell her that because of how she's been feeling throughout this, just like you have above.
STFU and manage your own feelings, if there is something in the kids interests put that first.


How do we have that conversation and me discuss my feelings about the kids and not show judgement?
At this stage, I think you can't have that conversation.

Vanilla, thank you so much for this....please help me change
dearest one you are doing that all by yourself, it is only my post which resonated and caused release in you. There will be a time when you will return the favour when I get stuck.


May I recommend a spiritual book by Michael George about Love Actually. I think you would find it inspiring.

Can a couple of the vets please just check in and ensure I have expressed ok.
Projecting peace of mind to you
Vanilla

Last edited by Vanilla; 12/20/14 06:25 PM.

Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose.
V 64, WAW


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Thank you Vanilla for the time, effort, and thought you put into your posts here. I'm often make myself so angry with my W that I forget the empathy you showed in your words.


Me: 44
W: 45
S: 11
Married: 15
Together: 18
BD: 9/29/2014
OM discovered: 10/16/2014
I left her behind: 12/14/2014
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MCS

Just one small thing to say left and it is what Sandi said to me, nothing, nothing you have said or done warrants W being wayward. That behaviour is her decision alone and totally unacceptable.

Vanilla


Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose.
V 64, WAW


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