Maybell XXV: Moving Toward the Lighthouse

[Maybell]

Old thread is probably about to lock:

Maybell XXIV

I got an email at work today that talked about growing your business, and it closed with this great, great line:

Fear is a lighthouse …

Head for it. What you want – a new job, a new life, a video blog or to make a difference – is right past the lighthouse. Your fear is leading you there.

Quick recap because 24 threads is TOO MANY for anyone to wade through:

October 2012, we're living on the west coast, experiencing the fallout of some surmountable financial issues, H accepts a job that brings us back to the east coast, near our previous home and driving distance (though still quite far) from family.

January 2013, he moves out ahead of me and the kids to start work. During his FIRST WEEK at the new job, kicks off an affair with an employee of the new company who lives in Europe.

February 2013, kids and I join him on the east coast with no idea of what we're walking into.

July 2013, OW's baby daddy outs my H. (I had the pleasure of seeing MANY screenshots of very explicit text messages between H and OW. Good times.) H asks for MC, says he wants to work things out. Hysterical bonding.

August 2013-April 2014, nosedive. H never gave up OW. I'm pressuring him more and more to commit to the marriage; he won't. Two marriage counselors, lots of lies, months of me begging, pleading, and screaming.

April 2014, he moves out. It's meant to be a three-month separation while we work on the marriage. Baby Daddy outs him again and I get a lawyer, but don't do more than very ostentatiously find out my options.

July 2014, he says "I'm not seeing OW anymore." Cue me freaking out and thinking we're going to reconcile.

October 2014, after him being wishy-washy, asking me out for lunches but total silence in between, nothing good happening between us and me just feeling strung along and anti-detached, I demand my space. Since October 2014 we only talk about kids and finances.

November 2014, a friend sends me a screenshot of his online dating profile. Also, after 12 years as a SAHM, I get a full-time job.

And here I am. I've been tremendously blessed. This is not a road I recommend for anyone, but it's the one I apparently needed to walk. Most likely H and I are through. And yet I'm still standing, and better in many, many ways than I ever was before. Hence my tag line, which I haven't changed in months and don't see any reason to change now.

[labug]

I think you're now beginning to live and believe your tagline.

I'm happy for you! ((( )))

[Lorelai]

((Maybell)). This makes me cry as I think about my own journey I must face. Love the lighthouse reference. I'm heading there. Your writing has been so encouraging and inspiring... Thank you. I know you will be OK.

[jim0987]

your summary shows the rough, long and difficult journey you've had and i wouldnt wish it on anyone. I do really think its also clear how much stronger you are and how much youve grown for it so the bits may be rough but the whole story is a positive one.

[Mozza]

Thanks for your summary. I wasn't aware of your whole journey. What an ordeal. It takes a lot of courage to do it with such strength and persistence. You might not feel strong all the time, but you've taken care of yourself and your kids and grown a lot (the job!) in the meantime. Don't think that everybody would have done so well.

I noticed elsewhere that you tend to push your timeline to the longest time possible, up to four (?) years, because of the initial detachment of your H. We could all do this.

I'd like to suggest something different: according to your timeline, you really started DBing in October 2014, when you stopped pursuing and demanded your space. That's two months ago. Since then, he warmed up a little, commented on your changes and called you mysterious. Ever the optimist, I'd suggest that you'll have a few more moths to wait before you see the full impact on your H. You'll have to keep doing it consistently, work on yourself like you've been doing, look your best for the world to see and admire, push your limits to grow. You don't feel like doing it for H anymore, right? Excellent.

[Maybell]

No, I'm definitely not doing it for my H. Anymore. (How sad is that, that I was for so long?)

I had a lightbulb moment earlier tonight.

He can't make me happy. I have to find it for myself. In myself.

Ergo...

I can't make him happy either.

So when he said he was leaving because he wasn't happy, that wasn't because of all my flaws. He could have changed gears at any time and I would have supported him. That's been the history of our entire marriage. But he decided to make it my problem. Which it's not.

That's not to say I don't have flaws. But my flaws can't make someone run all by themselves. He ran because of HIS flaws.

Betsey said earlier about the way constant criticism warps us. The week my H decided to leave, I went with the kids to go stay with my parents, who spent three days telling me how difficult and emotional I am (the week my husband announced he was leaving me!!) and told me it was my fault he was leaving because I'm too hard to live with.

Inadequacy has been a pretty constant theme of my life and I think what I've realized is we're ALL inadequate. Because all this happened in a community where I was a complete stranger, I've had to accept a lot of help from people who had no other reason to offer it than kindness. That has taught me a lot. Everybody poops, and everybody's poop stinks. As soon as you can get your head around that, it's kind of hard to not be happy. At least for me. I know and love a couple that has REAL struggles in their marriage... But there is a lot about it that I envy, too. So, why not be happy? My marriage has fallen to shreds, but my future is still very good, a lot about my past is good, and I enjoy some tremendous blessings today too. (One of those blessings is my St. John's Wort...)

So, even before I started cleaning up my act, my H's running away was still more about him than about me. When I went to visit my old church a few weeks ago, my pastor noticed me in the congregation and repeated a line from her sermon, twice, looking me in the eyes and pausing till I nodded... "I am enough."

I am.

[Maybell]

Oh, btw, Mozza, I don't think he'd call mysterious a good thing. It made him really mad. confirming about my bank account seems to have as well.

Wonder what his reaction would be if I shared what I know of his mysteries?

[Calibri]

So when he said he was leaving because he wasn't happy, that wasn't because of all my flaws. He could have changed gears at any time and I would have supported him. That's been the history of our entire marriage. But he decided to make it my problem. Which it's not.

That's not to say I don't have flaws. But my flaws can't make someone run all by themselves. He ran because of HIS flaws.

This. A million times this.

I'm starting to learn H's spew when he left, blaming me for everything. Is starting to unravel. He's starting to realize and admit that everything, is not in fact, my fault. I took a lot of it to heart but I'm starting to realize the message of what you just posted. Was I perfect? Nope. Can I be a better wife, a better person, absolutely. But I did not destroy my H. I did not destroy my marriage. H left because of his own chit. H is dealing with the fallout of his own flaws. Between this post and bug's posts to me over the past 24 hours, a lot is coming to light. /thread hijack

maybell, this is a beautifully written post. Thank you for sharing your story and providing inspiration.

[raliced]

2015 - The Year of Maybell! I'm glad to read your forward steps are gaining some momentum.

[claire7]

I started off today feeling tight in the chest...and i am ending the day feeling totally inspired by your last few posts.

((Fist bump))

You got this, MB!

[paul19510]

Great posts. I have come to many of the same conclusions over this past year. We can only fix us. And if working on ourselves isn't enough for the WAS then it isn't ....

They have their journey and we have ours. MB you sound great!!!

[Ile Guy]

I am learing the exact same as we speak about my WAW. I was blaming myself for so long. But as more friends and family learn of our separation, more and more keeps coming out. I have now decided to legally protect my children and myself legally and financially, I have no options of reconciliation. Unfortunately, It seems like she is going to have to hit rock bottom before she can come to a realization of her part in it. I was in the exact same boat... The begging, pleading, crying, tryng to keep the family intact... My first visit with my therapist he said it sounds like that when she looks at you, she doesn't see you. She sees her lies, the hurt she has inflicted and her general displeasure with herself.

Stay strong, and be positive.

Hope for the best and prepare for the worst.

Big hugs and prayers.

[Little]

High five! Blessings upon all of you!

[Dawn70]

Great, inspirational posts, Maybell. Thanks for BEING a lighthouse. Loved that reference...wrote it down and will put it on my mirror in my bathroom, my car, my computer monitor at work...any place I will see it frequently throughout the day. Thank you for being an amazing example of strength.

[labug]

No, I'm definitely not doing it for my H. Anymore. (How sad is that, that I was for so long?)

I had a lightbulb moment earlier tonight.

He can't make me happy. I have to find it for myself. In myself.

Ergo...

I can't make him happy either.

So when he said he was leaving because he wasn't happy, that wasn't because of all my flaws. He could have changed gears at any time and I would have supported him. That's been the history of our entire marriage. But he decided to make it my problem. Which it's not.

That's not to say I don't have flaws. But my flaws can't make someone run all by themselves. He ran because of HIS flaws.

Betsey said earlier about the way constant criticism warps us. The week my H decided to leave, I went with the kids to go stay with my parents, who spent three days telling me how difficult and emotional I am (the week my husband announced he was leaving me!!) and told me it was my fault he was leaving because I'm too hard to live with.

Inadequacy has been a pretty constant theme of my life and I think what I've realized is we're ALL inadequate. Because all this happened in a community where I was a complete stranger, I've had to accept a lot of help from people who had no other reason to offer it than kindness. That has taught me a lot. Everybody poops, and everybody's poop stinks. As soon as you can get your head around that, it's kind of hard to not be happy. At least for me. I know and love a couple that has REAL struggles in their marriage... But there is a lot about it that I envy, too. So, why not be happy? My marriage has fallen to shreds, but my future is still very good, a lot about my past is good, and I enjoy some tremendous blessings today too. (One of those blessings is my St. John's Wort...)

So, even before I started cleaning up my act, my H's running away was still more about him than about me. When I went to visit my old church a few weeks ago, my pastor noticed me in the congregation and repeated a line from her sermon, twice, looking me in the eyes and pausing till I nodded... "I am enough."

I am.

I LOVE this so much.

I'm standing and cheering right now.Seriously, in my bath robe.

I am so happy for you. In the future when you feel doubt creeping in (and you will) go back to this.

Let this remain your truth.

[Maybell]

Thank you, Yoda.

Here's a question... all three kids had belt tests last Saturday but S6 was sick and had to miss it. On Monday I scheduled his make up for tonight, and told H about it so he could make time for it.

H skipped it. Sent me a text saying he wasn't going to make it and asking me to let S6 know he was thinking of him and loved him. Asked me to send pictures or video.

I'm nice, I sent the video. S6 ROCKED it -- an amazing board break like he hardly ever does. It was awesome, and I'm pleased I got it on video.

H texted back, wow, that was great, please tell him how proud I am of him.

Is it too much to expect the dude would NOT delegate his relationship with his children to me?

Clearly it is.

I try to praise the 1% of effort he does make. But he seems to think parenting by proxy and only on his scheduled nights is sufficient.

If I need to seriously just LET IT GO then say so. It hurts to see him treat them that way but I will just accept him as is and quit worrying about it if that's what I must do.

I know intellectually it is. I know letting myself be disappointed by him that way is just me having expectations. But what should I do? Should I accept the tasks of telling my kids their dad is thinking of them? Should I say "Hey, tell him yourself?"

They all have means of communicating with him. Even if he said "This text is for S6, please share it with him" that would be something.

I guess it's just an expectation I have. He was so critical of my parents' lack of interest in me -- often said of my dad, "I can't imagine not wanting to talk to D11." And yet here he is.

HIS PROBLEM, not mine. But I need insight on constructive ways to respond to him.

[Maybell]

So I acted "as if" he had said "this text is for S6, please share it with him," and I gave the phone to S6 to answer it.

It was still a less than thrilling interaction but at least S6 is OK. I guess.

After two days of stomping around and snapping at people, D11 said that she wished I didn't have to work "so much." Two days a week I get home one hour after her. Three days a week I get home two hours after her. Everything else has remained the same; I makes breakfasts and see her off in the mornings, make her lunches, make dinners, we eat together, we plan our weekends, etc. If anything, we spend MORE time together because she texts me frequently throughout the day. I'm astounded that she missed me.

She says: "Of course I missed you, you're my mom."
Me: "The way you treat me I can't always tell."
Her: "Yeah... sorry about that."

Interesting evening. I enjoy time spent with my kiddos.

[Old Dog]

Good for you Maybell. You are an inspiration to me.

[Maybell]

A little more update on the kiddos...

Last night D11, S8, and I were talking about counseling/therapy. I asked S8 if he wanted to see someone every week rather than just the school counselor when she can fit him in. He said yes, definitely. So I'm going to reach out to the school counselor for some referrals.

D11 keeps insisting she's fine and I've been trying to initiate short bursts of conversation from time to time when we're both relaxed. That has included me being a little more open and honest about how I'm feeling -- trying to model communication skills in a positive way for her. I think it's working; last night we talked about things and I asked her how she felt about her dad being gone and she said, "That's your business." I said, "Yes, it is, and that's a good healthy way to see this problem. But it's your business that you don't live with your dad right now, and if you feel like you need help with that I'd like to know so I can make that happen." She said again that she was fine and I let it go.

Then she asked me if I was still writing (fiction). I said, not for a long time, because I've been so unhappy that I didn't feel able to write. She said "I think you should write about all this. That would be better." I said, "better for me or better for my stories?" And she said "Both." I said I thought she was probably right and that I would think about that. Then I kissed her good night.

I am impressed by my girl's wisdom here. I have to say, the beautiful way our family life has blossomed since he left is really thought-provoking. I had been trying to submit to the leadership of someone who didn't want to lead where I wanted to go. Or who maybe didn't want to lead at all.

When Cadet I first saw the message about the "gift of time" I didn't realize what it could mean. It really has been a gift, with the senses of surprise and slow unwrapping built in.

[claire7]

Maybell,

I think you are doing such a great job with your kids. Keep in mind-- being the parent of an 11 year old is super hard. And *being* 11 years old... I think that's harder. I have taught over 1,000 11 year olds in my career. They don't always tell you what they are thinking-- they don't always have the words or skills for that-- but they notice what you do and say. So, even if you think she's not listening, she is. And even if you think that what you say doesn't have an effect on her... it does.

[labug]

As I say, not all gifts are wrapped in pretty packages and tied with a bow, some appear as Sh!t Sandwiches.

Now that you've reached a new level of letting go, how about having a talk with H? No shame, no blame, just the facts about how much you're willing to foster his R with his children.

Your boundaries.

Then let it go. He is an adult, he can do this if he chooses to.

A note about resentment, my bugaboo. Don't invite it in. If you're doing anything for any reason other than it's what you want to do or believe to be, in light of your values, the best thing to do, stop doing it. Make choices that are yours because doing anything less than that is fertile ground for resentment to grow. Knowing your boundaries, stating your boundaries and maintaining your boundaries is key. People can't respect our boundaries is they don't know them.

Many of us fear setting boundaries because 1) we want to be liked and 2) we might have to defend the boundary. My answer to that:
1) it's better to like/respect yourself 2) it's better to be surrounded by people who respect your boundaries. Let those who don't fall away.

I hope you don't picture Yoda in your mind when you think of me but I leave you with this: “Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.” <(-.-)>

[Maybell]

Horrible, horrible night with D11.

It's not very nice to be told that I should go kill myself because I said she couldn't have goldfish crackers.

[Georgiabelle]

I'm sorry, Maybell. I can totally relate as I had a similar day with D9. Grrrr...

[Maybell]

Closed it out with a save. D11 is starting to thaw some. Makes me sad/heartens me to see her crying quietly rather than just insanely angry. Maybe she will learn to open up a little.

And then we had a long conversation about God.

Parenting is HARD.

[okjpc]

Maybell,
Thank you for your postings. There is some really good stuff here. And i relate to the kid troubles. My S5 spent most of the morning telling me he hates me, no one likes me, I'm stupid, I smell like a butt, etc. My D7 just kept sticking her tongue out at me and harrumphing every time I tried to talk to her.
They're having a hard time with the S and the changes and have to take it out on someone, I guess.

And labug, thanks for the Yoda emoticon! I'd never seen that before.

[Maybell]

Labug, you called it. Not doubt so much as yearning. But it's stupid.

So the Christmas lashing out and the money comment have really rattled me and I've been thinking about how to address those in a way that makes me feel safe without incurring anymore spew.

So I started reading about the pursuer/distancer dynamic to see if spew was the normal accompaniment to adjusting the dance. This led me down a merry road of books that lead to reconciliation, which took my brain with it and reopened my heart to that possibility.

Realistically, there is no possibility of reconciliation at this time. He is not in a place where he can even handle the relationship with his children, let alone with me, considering our history. I am seriously starting to doubt if he will ever be.

This may be an aside, but I have to put it out there, FWIW... the psychic told me he's moved on to #2, and one of my guy friends said he thinks he has too, but if he has there is no evidence of it in the credit cards that I can read. He shows up very little in the credit card statements at all -- and yet we're out a chunk of money and I can't figure it out. Another reason for me to move a legal separation into place.

When we have this discussion and I tell him what I want to do, he's going to snap at me (again) for telling him there's no such thing as legal separation in our state -- which is true, I explained to him how it works, and neither one of us was ready to deal with legal documents at that time. But he has forgotten that part (because I said something about legal separation a few weeks ago and he snapped at me then too), and if he hasn't done his own research to understand how it works in our state then it's not really my responsibility to educate him. But I do kind of fear the conversation. I'm also really anxious about what will happen with the house.

I'm not sure where I'm going with this post, but I felt a pressure in my chest that needed to be released. When I told my friend about the Christmas/bank account conversations she said that I was supposed to stay under his thumb till he was ready to deal with me, and that the fact that I'd gotten a job, made my own holiday plans, opened the bank account and declined to pursue him. Why would he want me under his thumb when he has made it so clear he doesn't want me at all? To feel one-up (to use the term from The Passion Trap)? Because he's insecure in his standing in the world and needs to keep me under him so he doesn't hit rock bottom?

I'm not sure where I'm going with this, but his behavior is confusing to me and I am anxious about Christmas. I'm not getting him a present but I did let the kids get him a few stocking stuffers and we aren't buying all the xBox games he asked for -- because they have their own ideas of what they'd like him to have and I'm honoring that.

[labug]

MB, explain in more detail the call about the bank acct. I'm not getting the importance of it to you. Not saying it's not important, but I'm not standing in your shoes so I'm not feeling what you're feeling.

((( )))

Today's the Winter Solstice, write down things you want to leave behind as we enter the Season of Light. Throw them one by one into the fire and let them dissipate with the smoke.

If they start niggling at you again remind yourself that you've turned them over to God, your higher power, whatever.

Free yourself.

[Maybell]

He had a hissy fit about Christmas Eve because I said I had plans for that evening and didn't want the kids & I to go out to dinner with him because I have plans. He had them for Thanksgiving the whole week, and will have them during the day Christmas Eve because I have to work, and will have them the weekend after Christmas as well. So he's only missing dinner with me that evening. He'll see them a lot. When I said no to dinner he demanded to know what my plans were and that I didn't need to be "so mysterious" -- that I could be specific about what my plans were because he has a right to know where his kids are on Christmas Eve. So I told him. Then he wanted D11 to not participate in my plans and also said he would take the boys away from me on Christmas Day to play the video game he bought them.

I said no, he was NOT to do that because he'd had them for Thanksgiving and Christmas was mine. Then he pitched more of a fit and said that "I know things aren't conducive to things being much of a "family" Christmas right now, but I'm doing everything I can to try to make this one at least as normal for them as it can be, and for it to involve us both equally." (which I notice wasn't at all a concern for him when he excluded me at Thanksgiving.) He also claimed to be the only one trying to make Christmas nice for them at all.

So we smoothed that over with some validating and mutual apologies.

Then the next day he asked if I had gotten a separate bank account for my new paycheck and that he had a "right" to know what I'm making and how much is in my bank account because he's treated things as shared and I ought to as well. So I told him my salary, confirmed I have my own account, and told him how much cash was in it. Then I said that if he had anything more to say about the finances we should reserve that for an in-person conversation when the kids weren't present. He answered another element of that email but didn't respond to the finance part, which I took to mean he DOES have more to say about it but is respecting my request to do that in person.

I had told him before he even moved out that if I got a job I wanted to have my own bank account so that I could feel more like my own person and he'd said he understood that. Given how things are going I do feel very insecure about his intentions and any mention he makes about money exacerbates that.

Looking it over again I can see that maybe he didn't mean for that to be nearly as threatening as it feels to me, because he can't understand that I no longer see him as trustworthy and because I've seen so many examples of SAHM's being left in dire straits.

I need to be legally separated to address some of that fear. I am afraid that this new H who snaps at me and seems to expect me to be available at his request is going to try to back me into a corner about taking steps to feel more secure. He's going to see it as a personal insult on his integrity. Which I feel he has very little and he has said (even post-BD) that he has lots of integrity and is a very honest person. I guess, in short, that I'm afraid my changes are about to be tested and that even if they stand firm that I will be made to suffer for it in some way.

I behaved very badly in the months leading up to his departure. To a certain extent, I'm getting what I dished out.

I suspect that things are going to get worse before they get better and I'm not looking forward to it. I've been through enough. I'm ready to spend my time on people who are happy that I care about them. People who don't lash out at me because of their own choices.

Thanks for the idea about celebrating the solstice. I think I'm going to go do that now.

[Lorelai]

Great idea, LB. I am going to do that tonight. Maybell, your posts are so helpful. I've been taking so much from the boards and not giving back. I'd like to be better about that.

[Maybell]

I will say that last week he asked me if "we" still have the old space heater because he's afraid the floor of the laundry room is too cold for S8 to sleep comfortably. I said I didn't think "we" did and he said he didn't think so.

At least he's concerned about their well-being when they're present.

Kids opted to not buy him any video games for Christmas. They got things they thought he would enjoy IRL. They were very thoughtful and demonstrated that they really understand him, which is nice.

[labug]

He had a hissy fit about Christmas Eve because I said I had plans for that evening and didn't want the kids & I to go out to dinner with him because I have plans. He had them for Thanksgiving the whole week, and will have them during the day Christmas Eve because I have to work, and will have them the weekend after Christmas as well. So he's only missing dinner with me that evening. He'll see them a lot. When I said no to dinner he demanded to know what my plans were and that I didn't need to be "so mysterious" -- that I could be specific about what my plans were because he has a right to know where his kids are on Christmas Eve. So I told him. Then he wanted D11 to not participate in my plans and also said he would take the boys away from me on Christmas Day to play the video game he bought them.
I said no, he was NOT to do that because he'd had them for Thanksgiving and Christmas was mine. Then he pitched more of a fit and said that "I know things aren't conducive to things being much of a "family" Christmas right now, but I'm doing everything I can to try to make this one at least as normal for them as it can be, and for it to involve us both equally." (which I notice wasn't at all a concern for him when he excluded me at Thanksgiving.) He also claimed to be the only one trying to make Christmas nice for them at all.

There's a lot of charged language in this. Hissy fit, demanded to know, he would take the boys away, pitched more of a fit. Was it really that charged? Or is that the story you're telling yourself? I don't know that answer, just asking.

So we smoothed that over with some validating and mutual apologies.

So let's put this on the fire and watch it go up in smoke.

Then the next day he asked if I had gotten a separate bank account for my new paycheck and that he had a "right" to know what I'm making and how much is in my bank account because he's treated things as shared and I ought to as well. So I told him my salary, confirmed I have my own account, and told him how much cash was in it. Then I said that if he had anything more to say about the finances we should reserve that for an in-person conversation when the kids weren't present. He answered another element of that email but didn't respond to the finance part, which I took to mean he DOES have more to say about it(mind-reading) but is respecting my request to do that in person.

I had told him before he even moved out that if I got a job I wanted to have my own bank account so that I could feel more like my own person and he'd said he understood that. Given how things are going I do feel very insecure about his intentions and any mention he makes about money exacerbates that.

I think you handled this beautifully and it's another one of those things you can let go of unless or until he brings it up again.

When we make boundaries some people are going to get chafed. It's OK, that's their choice. You're not responsible for his emotions. I know, that's a difficult pill to swallow 'cause it appears you've lived your married life feeling responsible for his emotions.

Looking it over again I can see that maybe he didn't mean for that to be nearly as threatening as it feels to me, because he can't understand that I no longer see him as trustworthy and because I've seen so many examples of SAHM's being left in dire straits.

As I've said to my IC many times, "It is really all about me and my stuff, isn't it?"

I need to be legally separated to address some of that fear. I am afraid that this new H who snaps at me and seems to expect me to be available at his request is going to try to back me into a corner about taking steps to feel more secure. He's going to see it as a personal insult on his integrity. Which I feel he has very little and he has said (even post-BD) that he has lots of integrity and is a very honest person. I guess, in short, that I'm afraid my changes are about to be tested and that even if they stand firm that I will be made to suffer for it in some way.

Wow, where does all that come from?

You're a strong woman, if he does that, you can handle it.

What I would try to avoid is creating a narrative in your mind to which you react. I'm not saying stick your head in the sand and let him run amock but rather be honest about how much of this is him and how much is created by your fears.

You don't want to create a self-fulfilling prophecy. I've seen it happen here and IRL and that prophecy manifests from our worst fears. What we resist persists, what we focus on grows, the wolf we feed becomes the strongest...

I've been through enough. I'm ready to spend my time on people who are happy that I care about them. People who don't lash out at me because of their own choices.

That will never happen. Becoming a person with strong boundaries involves pushback. Kids, partners, employers, employees, friends will all test us, just as we will test them.

Let them lash, you are teflon.

I hope the Solstice idea was helpful. It's a beautiful thing to realize we are in charge of us.

We can throw off the chains.

[Maybell]

I could probably count on my fingers the number of times he snapped at me in seventeen years, and half of them were in the last two years we were together. He almost always shut down rather than lash out. The few times he actually expressed displeasure I tried to really do what he wanted because it told me he really meant it. And yes, I did take a TON of responsibility for his feelings. I know better now intellectually, but it's a hard habit to even identify, let alone break.

Which is also why I felt anxious at the idea of his lashing out at me.

On the other hand, lashing out is WAY healthier than bottling for years on end. It feels more honest even when I feel shaken and a little scared. (Fear is a lighthouse!) so that's something.

Where does my speech about his integrity come from? Two years of lying about OW, lying in therapy, making speeches to his affair partner's baby daddy about how the *baby daddy* ought to be a man his daughter can look up to, changing his FB page to keep his friends in the dark about his behavior, not telling anyone we're separated, and signing up for online dating while married. Sigh. Someone tell me what I'm here for???

The Solstice idea was nice. A weight went up with the smoke. I put a little dried sage on the flame too, which is supposed to be cleansing. I'm keeping that idea handy.

I've been reading Harry Potter aloud to my kids since H moved out and we've just started the seventh book. It's the one where Harry has to wrestle with the idea that Dumbledore had dark secrets in his past, and we just finished the scene where Dumbledore's most devoted friend and a malicious gossip-monger are arguing over what happened to Dumbledore's sister.

One of the themes of the book is Harry's inclination to give greater weight to the testimony of the more negative speaker, because he can't believe that goodness and badness can exist in a single person. (I've founf that all of Rowling's books deal with people in varying shades of gray, but that's another post). Anyway, the Harry thing tonight has got me thinking about what my H's side of this situation could be.

I'm really struggling to understand it. Is it because I never understood him well because he didn't express himself in a way I understood? Or was I really awful? But I have my own side to that, and while I acknowledge there were times and ways I was difficult, we both kind of laughed about being pains in our own particular ways. Or is it MLC and a thing that just descended on us? Or is he truly fatally flawed?

Unknowable at this stage.

But the Harry thing is maybe useful in reminding me to keep an eye on the grays in our circumstances. And to watch from a distance without judgment (which I haven't done yet). And to not be like Harry in books 5 & 6, when he was constantly snapping at people.

(I'd really like to be like Fred or George Weasley...)

Anyway, thanks for listening to my ramblings...

[Maybell]

Oh, and btw, all you fellas contemplating exposure of the A/OM... My story:

Baby Daddy exposed to me three times. It did NOT bust the affair but it did drive it underground for a time and ultimately led to H moving out and leaving MC.

Baby Daddy threatened to beat my H -- and has the means and temperament to do it -- H laughed at him. Mattered not at all, and H attempted to teach Baby Daddy the Fine Art of Quality Manhood to boot.

If H had lost his job over this, maybe it would have stopped the affair (because his means of communication with her *might* be reduced) but it would definitely have caused hardship to me and my three kids.

Behold, the glories of exposure. Don't bother.

[mustardseed]

I love your Harry Potter musings. There is always lots of gray. I have a hard time with understanding the gray. I can love too much and I can hate too much, but getting to the point of accepting that he is who he is, and right now he isn't for me is very tough for me. I spend the weekend away from him hating him--called the lawyer to make an appointment (but she wasn't in the office so I will have to call again tomorrow, and then I saw him and my heart warmed again. Why? He isn't being nice to me, but he isn't being nasty. My paranoia from the weekend that he was hanging out with other women subsided as soon as I came home and it was almost like that was enough to make me second guess my decision to file. Who cares if he is having an A or not? Who cares if he still is capable of being a decent human being in certain situations? Those are not reasons to stay in a marriage.

I think I need to go back to goal setting. Not to save my marriage, but to end it. I was doing that over the summer and I was in a really good place. But then he reeled me back in just long enough for me to forget those goals and this last heartache has sent me into a bad pattern of focusing more on him than me. Because I am so angry, and bitter, and resentful, and impatient and I feel the need to hate--to block out any hint of gray or white and just see the black. But all I am doing is making myself miserable.

[labug]

Where does my speech about his integrity come from? Two years of lying about OW, lying in therapy, making speeches to his affair partner's baby daddy about how the *baby daddy* ought to be a man his daughter can look up to, changing his FB page to keep his friends in the dark about his behavior, not telling anyone we're separated, and signing up for online dating while married. Sigh. Someone tell me what I'm here for???

Ahhh again, we miscommunicate I was asking where does all that fear originate and why you think you can't deal with his possible actions.

Only you can answer why you're here but whether the marriage is saved of not, you can still be a success story.

You're well on your way.

[Underdog]

Hey folks!

In response to Bug's teflon comments and observations, this is a passage I got in my inbox yesterday from the Daily OM:

There will always be factors and people that we cannot control; how we respond can determine the quality of our lives.

There are many stories of spiritual masters embracing the presence of an annoying student in their community. There is even one story that documents a teacher paying an irritating person to live among his students. From an everyday perspective, this is difficult to comprehend. We generally work hard to avoid people and things that we find annoying so they don’t bother us.

From a deeper spiritual perspective, however, irritation can be an important teacher and indicator that we are making progress on our path. Being able to remain centered and awake even when we feel uncomfortable is much more impressive than doing so in an environment where everything is to our liking. No matter how good we are at controlling our circumstances, there will always be factors and people that we cannot control. How we respond to these experiences to a great degree determines the quality of our lives. The goal of spiritual development is not to learn to control our environment—which is more of an ego-driven desire. And while having some measure of control over our external reality is important, it is when we are confronted with a person or situation that irritates us and we can choose not to react that we know have made progress spiritually. It is when we have mastered our internal reality that we will have become the masters of our lives.

The more we try to eliminate annoyances, instead of learning to handle them gracefully, the further we get from developing the qualities that come with spiritual growth, such as patience, tolerance, and acceptance. It is often in the presence of people and experiences we find annoying that we have an opportunity to develop these qualities. Fortunately for most of us, our lives offer an abundance of opportunities to practice and cultivate these traits.

And in regards to Harry Potter, I love the gray you point out. I live in a gray world. Some things are black and white, but most things are really double edged swords. BTW, I'm pretty sure Harry, Ron and Hermione were snippy because they were hormonal teenagers!

I'm really struggling to understand it. Is it because I never understood him well because he didn't express himself in a way I understood? Or was I really awful? But I have my own side to that, and while I acknowledge there were times and ways I was difficult, we both kind of laughed about being pains in our own particular ways. Or is it MLC and a thing that just descended on us? Or is he truly fatally flawed?

Well, we're *all* flawed. We are a sum of our upbringings and experiences. Those flaws have a way of getting in the way of healthy relationships. So maybe all of the above?

I think I told you that I used to be a horrible crazymaker? A crazymaker is someone who creates drama to manage it - for a variety of reasons. Mine was that it was the only way I could control outcomes. I'd set the fires so I could put them out, so to speak. I didn't even know why or even when it originated, but it was something I learned when I was young. I drove my BF's crazy, and I drove my XH absolutely insane. He despised it. Yet, I couldn't see it. I saw it when I was ready to see it. And I had to dig deep to figure out why and what need and fear it was addressing. And then I stopped doing it. I live a relatively drama free life now, and I absolutely hate it when it drops in my lap. I've become drama intolerant.

And yes, I did take a TON of responsibility for his feelings. I know better now intellectually, but it's a hard habit to even identify, let alone break.

Have you considered addressing this topic all by itself with a qualified counselor who works with addicts and co-dependents? Codependency is its own addiction. Bug and I have both had to do this work. The only way out is through. There's hope, Maybell!

On the other hand, lashing out is WAY healthier than bottling for years on end.

Actually, my former IC would disagree. They are both completely inappropriate responses to fear. Both are hurtful. Bottling is emotionally dishonest, but lashing out is a cruel way to manage anger. Passive aggressive or a rager? Who'd want to choose one? They're both scary.

Where does that anger come from, Maybell? It's telling you something is not well and needs to be addressed. Yes, your H is deceitful. I understand that one. But that teflon Bug mentioned can come into play. His behavior choices are not you or an indicator of who you are or your value system. Can you blur some of those lines so that you can get to a gray here?

Hugs, and Merry Christmas!

p.s. Choose George instead of Fred!

[Maybell]

Lord, when it rains it pours.

I got an email tonight from that almost abusive definitely bad news boyfriend from 22 years ago. I have literally not heard from since I was 20. Why tonight? I don't like that he knows my married name.

Seriously, I do not create this drama. It finds me. Why????

[vossy]

Ignore it. You don't have to respond.

[Maybell]

Oh, I did. It just was a shock, and the timing is very strange.

[gan]

And if you can...LAUGH about it!

[Maybell]

I kind of sorted of laughed... But that was a pretty terrible two years that left a lot of scars and was a contributing factor in my reluctance to return to the west coast when my H moved us there. I'm not thrilled to know XBF knows who I am.

[Maybell]

Ok, Betsey, Labug... I've been contemplating your messages this evening.

It is SO weird that XBF would email tonight when I haven't spoken to him even one word since 3 years before I met H. And then I thought of what I wrote right above about XBF and how I totally shoved that gigantic ball of poo under the rug and never really dealt with it, and maybe somehow the universe is directing my attention there with this strange email. (So strange I thought it must be a prank.)

I need to think on that. Some of it hurts so deeply I don't even want to write about it. Which I know will shock you given how much I've spilled my guts. There's definitely stuff there to be dealt with.

I am Teflon. I felt threatened by what my H said. But now I feel zen again. I have a couple of plans in mind so I think I'll be ok.

Betsey your message on RPP's thread was very generous. I'm sorry for the pain of losing your brother and thank you to you and Labug for your generosity in helping me and others keep it together, especially over the holidays.

I have an appointment with a new IC, but I may backburner that till S8 gets some therapy, because he's actually requested it.

I hope someday I'm like the two of you.

[labug]

When we help ourselves, we help our kids. I say this as a mom who put her needs on the back burner for far too long.

Put the oxygen mask on your face first.

((( )))

Merry Christmas!

[Underdog]

Maybell,

Thanks for your compassion... And Merry Christmas!

My brother's death has certainly affected my mood. I'm trying, though. Now only if D17's presents show up. They were supposed to be here yesterday. Yikes.

But since we've been having forgiveness discussions, thought it would be good to share my story for today. I don't know if I have mentioned that my brother's ex wife and I have had estrangement for awhile. We compared notes at the funeral and figured out that he had lied to all of us and created the rift so he could protect his lies. I told her that there were two last straws with me with my brother: he borrowed $550 for airline tickets to a yoga camp and promised me a quick payback that never happened (it was my saved book money for D20); and then I found out he had paid someone $500 to rough up someone who owed him money. My X-SIL was devastated when I told her he had told me she wouldn't give him the money to pay me back. I told her I knew it was not true, but that I'd like to bury the lies with him and start over. We buried our hatchet.

This morning, I got a text from her that read, "Chris came to me in a dream and wants me to send you a gift. Follow the instructions on the text, and don't be afraid. Merry Christmas from heaven." I then got a text that had me follow instructions to deposit $400 into my account. It made me cry.

I think I'm going to use this to create a gift stream of consciousness to build the bridge between us and use it as a means of creating good memories in his name. He's no longer a drug addict, and I will use this as an instrument of peace.

Good will to all, and a special hug to you, Maybell.

Betsey

[SunnyB]

Betsey, what an incredible story. And what a powerful example of what can happen in our lives when we forgive. Merry Christmas to you!

(And I hope the presents showed up! One year when D16 was little, her special Barbie did not make it by Christmas Eve. As we were opening presents on Christmas morning, the doorbell rang and a courier delivered the Barbie. We told her it was an elf, the Barbie had fallen off the sleigh. She totally believed it and was happy as a clam all day.)

[Wonka]

Oh Bets! What an incredible story.....thank you for sharing it here. Merry Christmas to everyone here.

[mustardseed]

Merry Christmas. As bittersweet as the holiday can be, the message of hope and peace that the season brings always helps put things into perspective. We may not get everything we want this Christmas, but I truly believe we always seem to get what we need.

[Maybell]

Merry Christmas!

So H was here till about 4pm. He parked himself in a chair for most of the day. At least it wasn't the chair he always sat in before he moved out. Devoted himself to the kids. Spoke to me a very little. Didn't help with food or clean up. hesitated like he wanted a hug as he left but I didn't take any notice.

I didn't give him anything. But I did direct D11 to choose a gift for him that he'd been excited about during the summer and he seemed to like it. Boys gave him gifts of their choice which were nice. And I made sure there was stuff for his stocking.

I didn't get my perfume after all. He gave me this funky Buddha activity. The box says "master the art of letting go." That was unsettling at first but I think it was meant to be just a relaxing activity. Also a very very cool book that I was happy he'd remembered.

Owing to holiday prep I've gotten three hours of sleep the last two nights so I actually fell completely asleep on the couch two different times today. That never happens. I could sleep now.

Today was polite but distant. The most time I've spent with him since he moved out. There were a couple of moments when I would have liked to have made things a little closer, but then I thought of him and OW (and caught him texting when I woke up from my naps) and I thought, well, that would be pursuit and I'll just let him walk this path without me.

It was a weird Christmas but better than last year. And now I have most of a year to move closer to a great Christmas in 2015.

One of the plot points of the Doctor Who episode I'm watching turns on CyberDanny's emotional inhibitor being activated and the Doctor's fear that it will make him forget he loves Clara and kill her. It's resolved when the Doctor remembers, "Love is not an emotion. Love is a choice." And then Danny saves the world.

I've been wrestling with what to do with that observation. I think the only thing to do is to choose to love myself.

Merry Christmas, cyber friends!

[LoveMyW]

Your day sounded like it could have been a lot worse Maybell!!..

I drew some similarities between my day and yours, so it still seems like a script!!.. It was the longest chunk of time I have spent with W since S, and (mindreading here) I'm sure she had been texting NBF during the day..

Oh well, her choice!!.. I'm looking at the positives that I got to spend the day with her, my boys and the rest of my extended family whom I love and cherish.. Where was new BF??.. Who cares, he wasn't involved, invited nor thought about by W's family yet I was..

Score 1 to me!!..

Merry Xmas!!..

[Maybell]

Feeling hurt and less detached today. I think he and I might really be over.

He graduated from college in 3 years so he could get started on his adult life. I think I was part of that push for early achievement. I don't think he had any clue what grown-up marriage would be like and not much desire to engage in one. I've never been very important to him.

He is not a thoughtful person. He didn't help AT ALL yesterday. Except to play with the kids a little. He's like that everywhere. Waiting to be served. Never helps with the dishes at his parents' house or anywhere else. Never helped with the kids or anything. Would walk into their house, greet them, and then start reading the paper once he'd gotten his beer. In seventeen years I don't think he ever once helped with the dishes after a big family meal at their house.

Our financial condition is beginning to deteriorate. I saw an indication that he may have been on a date in the statements. (I know we're not supposed to snoop but the cash has dropped so much and so suddenly that I was trying to figure out why.)

I don't think I am broadly codependent. I think I've been trying to compensate for my H's lack of emotional involvement for years. Yesterday I saw him more clearly and I saw a guy who was willing to ask for big things but not to give little things. I asked for THREE things. All small. All things my daughter knows how to find. I received one of them, because it was electronic. One of my gifts was from D11, but none of them were from my boys. That kind of hurt. He didn't try to foster their ability to show me loving gestures. They give me plenty of loving gestures anyway without his guidance but it says a lot about him. His gifts were from each of the children, and they were very excited to share them with him.

I think what I'm feeling now is just blow-back from having been around him so much yesterday. I'm working hard to be detached but today I'm exhausted, yesterday I was even more exhausted, and I'm just feeling emotional.

What am I supposed to do with that Buddha gift? I don't want to use it. I don't want ANOTHER thing to set out when I'm trying to clear my life of things that don't serve me. But he chose it for me on purpose. (I think it was in a clearance bin, though).

He really hasn't understood me in a long time and the words to help him understand are stuck in my throat because of how he's treated me.

On another note, I talked to my mom a couple of weeks ago and when she asked what i wanted for Christmas I said I'd like a bag for work. I asked, very hesitantly, if I could choose it because (all I'd wanted to say was size, shape, and color)... and that's as far as I got before she launched into a HUGE tirade about how she wasn't going to buy me some tacky cheap crocheted thing and that I shouldn't think so little of them and on and on and on. It was very ugly, heated, and long, and I just sat there on the other end of the phone trying to get a word in edgewise to defuse the whole thing and I never could. I don't even remember how it ended or how I got off the phone. It was awful. So I didn't choose a bag because after that I felt like every time I laid eyes on it I'd just remember the tongue-lashing I'd received, and I didn't get anything from my parents for Christmas either. Nor did I send them anything. I tried to text a few times but they ignored em, I called twice after that but they declined my calls so I haven't spoken to them in a couple of weeks. I don't feel like I've been treated very fairly by them and I'm tired of making the effort. D11 asked me if I'd ever treat HER that way if she went a few weeks without calling and I said of course not, I couldn't imagine behaving that way.

I want to change my life NOW. I want my H to either man up and return to the marriage or LEAVE. I want to know how to treat my parents so I don't keep walking into these booby traps, and I would like to keep them at serious arms length too. I just want to settle into a life that is MINE from this day on (not in this house) and be OK. I want to be happy.

I'm ok, just tired and emotional from the holidays.

[SunnyB]

Maybell, you had a big day yesterday. I hope you can just rest today.

Put the Budda thing in the Goodwill pile. If it's from one of your kids then give him a hug and tell him you took it to the office. And please go buy yourself what you want.

What happens if you ask your H for help? Yesterday after dinner H disappeared to the recliner but he came back and helped clean up when I asked him to.

The big red flag for me in your post was the declining financial position. If that's true, get out now. File today.

Hugs to you today.

[raliced]

Maybell,

I have to agree with rpp - I don't like the sound of the financials at all. It's very expensive to maintain two households and your H sounds like his own establishment is at a pretty high level. It's only worked in my sitch because the OW is subsidizing STBX. If he was living on his own it would have to be in dramatically reduced circumstances.

I'm sorry your day yesterday was wearing. I understand being frustrated that he didn't help kids acknoweldge the day for you. Getting something for my parents was a huge part of the day for me when I was a kid.

I know you were planning on seeing a new IC - maybe they can help you with strategies to deal with your parents. YOu should feel very good that your daughter is able to see how inappropriate their behavior is at such a young age She must have a great mom!

[claire7]

Maybell,

Yes, holidays really stretch our emotional limits. Sometimes we put So.Much.Weight onto these days...

You've had a tough few days. I'm so sorry for that exchange with your mom.

I have to second rppfl's thought about asking for help. My mom is a notorious martyr-- never asks for help, but then expects everyone to magically know what she needs help with, and then gets so passive aggressive when my dad doesn't help.

Some people are really good at jumping in to help; I'm not, but I've learned to at least ask to help. But I'll be honest about myself-- sometimes I feel like I'm all thumbs when I try to help in someone else's house. I've dropped food on people while trying to help serve... I've dropped dishes while trying to help clear the table... I've messed up in other ways! I'm always embarrassed by that and therefore sometimes hesitant to offer to help.

Not sure if there will be opportunities with your H, but certainly opportunities to teach your kids, if they don't yet have those habits, and most likely there will be opportunities in your next R, whoever that will be with, to be more assertive in this area. What do you think?

[Old Dog]

I'm sorry you're having a rough time Maybell. I thought I was but, you trumped me :-) no doubt loads of others have as well.

I'm at my mums now and at least I don't have any of that palaver to deal with thank goodness.

We could all do with a happy new year. Let's all resolve to make it one.

Hugs to you all. (Not so) Old Dog xx

[Maybell]

Took the kids for a long walk. Took them to see a movie. Now they're playing Legos and will be leaving for H's place in an hour or so.

"Cheese. Hats. Boxes. Those things don't make you you. YOU make you you."

It really made me see how my choices can make me.

This has been hanging on the wall of my home office for several years:

"Discipline is just choosing between what you want NOW and what you want MOST."

What I want MOST is to be a kind, loving person who never treats anyone the way my mother has treated me for the last several months. Who is as lovely, kind, smart, and competent as people seem to think I am. Who becomes adventurous, frugal, confident, and self-sufficient.

Throwing myself on the railroad tracks of a cr@ppy marriage because I chose poorly 18 years ago and didn't have the nerve to face it sooner is not good discipline.

I'm having kind of a rough day. I don't want to change my direction; I think I'm right in how I've aimed myself. But I wish my circumstances were different and that my H was the person I thought he was. I really don't think he is.

Heading for the lighthouse. Sad and scared, but heading for the lighthouse anyway. I hope he finds happiness.

[Maybell]

Claire, I ask for help when I need it. I've been doing a lot of asking in the last year. This is not an area where I need to be more assertive. The only times he ever bought me flowers was when I said I needed more help and that i couldn't do it all by myself. He'd buy me flowers and do better for about a week and then give up on everything again.

My H is a taker. He also went a LONG time demonstrating his lack of respect for me. Like, if it was his turn to wash the dishes and the dishwasher was running, he'd just stack them on the counter and refuse to do it. Like, he could be sitting there next to me with the bed covered with laundry to be folded and he'd wait to go to bed so I could fold it all by myself. If I gave him his own clothes to fold he'd just lay it on the dresser or on the floor and not do it. We had a cat so leaving it out for the cat to nest in was a bad option.

The only gap left by his leaving was taking out the trash and doing the finances. He's still doing the finances (which I'm hoping to take over at least halfway once I get this separation dealt with) and S8 has taken over the trash. EVERYTHING ELSE is the same.

I used to value him. I used to miss him and wish to figure out how to be closer to him. Now I see this guy who idolizes Walter White and Saul from Breaking Bad and I see his Tinder profile and the texts he sent to OW and I remember how he says he liked being "flirty" (explicit) with her and that he couldn't be "flirty" with me -- as if he'd ever tried -- and I think, WTH? He doesn't know me at all. He completely abandoned me emotionally and he blames me for the lack of passion?

I think I'm just sad at being so stupid. I wish this day were over.

[Maybell]

How could I have handed him so many different ways to hurt me after BD? Why didn't I pick up my dignity and tell him to treat me right or get out? When I look back now at all the things I let him say to me without protest, things that were incredibly cruel and unfair, and I let them pass just because he said them calmly... I want to kick myself. How could I have let him treat me that way?

I'm cycling back through hurting from those things. Hurting from how my mom has treated me and from the completeness of my knowledge that she and my dad never really liked me for who I am. Also seeing that I do put up shields in certain places and I can see people reacting when they bounce into them sometimes (including a little bit with H yesterday and today when he picked up the kids just now, but he doesn't deserve for me to lower them) and it feels almost impossible that I can ever be ok with keep them lower.

I don't think I'm really so difficult to love that I deserve the three people who are supposed to love me most in the whole world to turn against me this way. I don't think it's really on me. So why is this my life? Or is it really on me? If I were easier to love would I be loved more by the people who promised they did?

[Maybell]

I'm going to close on a hopeful note and try not to come back here again today.

The sermon where my pastor told me "You are enough" went like this:

The parable of the wise and foolish virgins, the wise ones being the ones who had brought extra oil to light the way of the bridegroom into the wedding, and the foolish ones who didn't. The bridegroom was delayed and everyone fell asleep waiting for him, so by the time his arrival was announced the oil in the lamps was running low. The foolish virgins begged the wise ones to give them some of their oil but the wise ones said, no, then there won't be enough for any of us. Go out and buy more.

The foolish virgins went out and tried to buy more oil, but by the time they got some the bridegroom had arrived and the gate was shut and he wouldn't let them in.

The moral of the story has always been taken to mean, be prepared, but my pastor said that was a pretty trite lesson to be handed down for 2000 years. She suggested that the bridegroom had closed the doors on the foolish virgins because instead of trusting that it was their presence that was required more than the service of the lamp bearing they had let themselves be distracted from the essential task at hand -- seeing in the bridegroom -- by the trappings of their service -- having more oil in the lamps.

She said that if they had had more confidence in their personal importance (in the sermon, to God) that they would have enjoyed the wedding party and not been shut out.

"I am enough" is a powerful statement, she said. It's humble -- because it recognizes that we could be more, and would like to be more. It recognizes that we are given everything we need to satisfy God, and that when we are with people who truly care about us, we are enough to satisfy them too, even if we don't have enough oil in our lamps. Showing up in love is what is called for. We don't have to be anything particular -- not dressed in a fancy dress, not skinnier or smarter or prettier or more giving -- we just have to be honestly and truly willing to be the best we can be in any given circumstance.

I am enough.

I think I'm going down to that church on Sunday morning.

Happy Boxing Day, friends, and tomorrow is a better day.

[mustardseed]

That is a wonderful message. I am enough! And so are you!

[claire7]

Yes, a wonderful message.

You are more than enough, i know lots of people who would agree with me.

I'm sorry I've missed the mark with you lately...especially on my latest post. Keeping you in my thoughts and wishing you a peaceful start to the new year.

[labug]

Feeling hurt and less detached today. I think he and I might really be over.

He graduated from college in 3 years so he could get started on his adult life. I think I was part of that push for early achievement. I don't think he had any clue what grown-up marriage would be like and not much desire to engage in one. I've never been very important to him.

He is not a thoughtful person. He didn't help AT ALL yesterday. Except to play with the kids a little. He's like that everywhere. Waiting to be served. Never helps with the dishes at his parents' house or anywhere else. Never helped with the kids or anything. Would walk into their house, greet them, and then start reading the paper once he'd gotten his beer. In seventeen years I don't think he ever once helped with the dishes after a big family meal at their house.

Our financial condition is beginning to deteriorate. I saw an indication that he may have been on a date in the statements. (I know we're not supposed to snoop but the cash has dropped so much and so suddenly that I was trying to figure out why.)

I don't think I am broadly codependent. I think I've been trying to compensate for my H's lack of emotional involvement for years. Yesterday I saw him more clearly and I saw a guy who was willing to ask for big things but not to give little things. I asked for THREE things. All small. All things my daughter knows how to find. I received one of them, because it was electronic. One of my gifts was from D11, but none of them were from my boys. That kind of hurt. He didn't try to foster their ability to show me loving gestures. They give me plenty of loving gestures anyway without his guidance but it says a lot about him. His gifts were from each of the children, and they were very excited to share them with him.

I think what I'm feeling now is just blow-back from having been around him so much yesterday. I'm working hard to be detached but today I'm exhausted, yesterday I was even more exhausted, and I'm just feeling emotional.

What am I supposed to do with that Buddha gift? I don't want to use it. I don't want ANOTHER thing to set out when I'm trying to clear my life of things that don't serve me. But he chose it for me on purpose. (I think it was in a clearance bin, though).

He really hasn't understood me in a long time and the words to help him understand are stuck in my throat because of how he's treated me.

On another note, I talked to my mom a couple of weeks ago and when she asked what i wanted for Christmas I said I'd like a bag for work. I asked, very hesitantly, if I could choose it because (all I'd wanted to say was size, shape, and color)... and that's as far as I got before she launched into a HUGE tirade about how she wasn't going to buy me some tacky cheap crocheted thing and that I shouldn't think so little of them and on and on and on. It was very ugly, heated, and long, and I just sat there on the other end of the phone trying to get a word in edgewise to defuse the whole thing and I never could. I don't even remember how it ended or how I got off the phone. It was awful. So I didn't choose a bag because after that I felt like every time I laid eyes on it I'd just remember the tongue-lashing I'd received, and I didn't get anything from my parents for Christmas either. Nor did I send them anything. I tried to text a few times but they ignored em, I called twice after that but they declined my calls so I haven't spoken to them in a couple of weeks. I don't feel like I've been treated very fairly by them and I'm tired of making the effort. D11 asked me if I'd ever treat HER that way if she went a few weeks without calling and I said of course not, I couldn't imagine behaving that way.

I want to change my life NOW. I want my H to either man up and return to the marriage or LEAVE. I want to know how to treat my parents so I don't keep walking into these booby traps, and I would like to keep them at serious arms length too. I just want to settle into a life that is MINE from this day on (not in this house) and be OK. I want to be happy.

I'm ok, just tired and emotional from the holidays.

You might like the Buddha thing. What bothers you so much about it? Remember sometimes gifts don't come wrapped in pretty packages...even if they're wrapped in pretty packages.

I've been thinking for a while that you just don't like your H very much at all. And that may seem like a "well, duh" thing but it isn't. I was plenty angry at my H for a long time but I knew that he really was a good person, he did stuff that drove me nuts but that was my issue. He really was and is a good person.

Question, why didn't you ask him to help? Also, I thought there was going to be a time set for how long he was going to stay.

Your H may be a dud. Are you ready to file?

[Maybell]

I used to like him a lot. He stopped sharing himself with me. When D11 was a toddler. Then I had to remind him to spend time with me and try to be connected. It just got harder and harder. There were periods when things were close but they're hard to believe in now. Now I don't even know how to connect anymore because I'm so hurt that he refused to turn towards me in the marriage and then had the affair and made it seem like I was boring and uninspiring and that he can't feel passion for me. And I was so lonely and he just wouldn't try to connect with or cherish me. Wouldn't take me with him on any of the amazing places he went. Wouldn't try to do more than dinner and a movie when we did go out. He taught me to love baseball when we were newly married but after d11 was born never took me to another game, in spite of my asking, till she was 8 or 9.

I *want* to like him and believe in him. I *want* to forgive him for everything that went with the affair. There was so much pain dished out during that year-plus.

I'm maybe being irrational about the gift. Maybe he's trying to say something to me. When I did yoga really intensively he said it "made a huge difference" but he didn't spend a lot of time with me then so I don't know that it made any difference. I was put off by the "master the art of letting go" emblazoned on the front of the box. I'm doing the best that I can.

[Maybell]

The kids asked him to stay later.

When he was lashing at me for saying no to Christmas Eve dinner he was a bit scathing about "Maybell can't handle spending time with me or whatever" and my reactions here today seem to show that's true. My hurt today is on me. He wasn't bad yesterday but it hurts that we don't connect.

It is very hard to think of him as a good person in the aftermath of the affair. For all our personal similarities, Labug, I do think that my having dealt with the moves and the affair make a significant difference. If doing the dishes at his parents' house or being more attentive to his mom was all that was required for me to file, we'd never have made it to kids.

Sometimes I think I belong in the MLC forum.

[Jefe]

Maybell, I don't know that I have anything useful to say other than I completely recognize the pain that you're in right at this very moment.

I've got a lot of built up anger and resentment towards my wife. Some founded, some not founded at all; all of it completely useless to my healing and absolutely destructive to any future reconciliation.

Holidays are tough. Don't make any decisions about anything now.

I wish I knew the right thing to say. Then again, if I did I probably wouldn't be in the mess I'm in, myself.

Merry Christmas, Maybell.

[labug]

It is very hard to think of him as a good person in the aftermath of the affair. For all our personal similarities, Labug, I do think that my having dealt with the moves and the affair make a significant difference. If doing the dishes at his parents' house or being more attentive to his mom was all that was required for me to file, we'd never have made it to kids.

He may not be a good person. I don't know that.

I also don't think every marriage should be saved but I think every person here can save themselves.

I had a reply written but I think robx said it all back in 09 in a post entitled The Quick Solution and being unique.

Everyday users on this forum will post an unknown number of replies & questions dealing with their relationships & marriages and every post boils down to some variation of...

"What should I do? I've read the other threads on this forum but my situation is unique..."

Bottom line, nothing in this world is new anymore. As much as you think your situation is unique, it really is a variation of quite a few common themes that you see posted & replied to regularly in these forums.

You may have heard the term, "WAS script".
Well "script" implies that the WAS (man or woman) will say & do things that are common for a person that wants to leave a relationship/marriage. My personal favorite is "I love you but I'm not in love with you anymore". Impressive that with so many unique marital situations that this particular statement re-occurs on a regular basis.

What else is not unique in many of your situations: TIME.
In most if not all of your respective situations, it has taken months and more probably years for your relationships to get to to their current status. It took alot of time to get to where you are, it took alot of time for the damage to accumulate to a point where your spouse made a decision to leave the relationship and you all have to realize that it's going to take a long time to get your relationship back if that's even a possibility.

Guarantees... there are none. Know this. Accept this.
You can do everything right in your current journey of busting your divorce and still not get your spouse back. There are no guarantees in life. No one knows what tomorrow will bring and you can't predict or control the future. But.... (and you know I like big buts) you all have a chance. As long as your heart beats, as long as you have a spring in your step, a smile on your face and the willingness to improve yourself and be the kind of spouse you would want to have (change begins & ends with the person you stare at in the mirror everyday) then you have a chance, a very good chance - it's not a guarantee but it's better than nothing at all.

You all come here looking for a solution. Years of marital problems, personal neglect, spousal neglect along with countless other issues and you all come here looking for a solution because your spouse has told you in one way or another "I've had enough and I don't want this marriage anymore."

This happened to all of you in one way or another and I don't care how "unique" your situation is, your spouse finally communicated to you in person that they wanted to leave you or they had an affair with another person which pretty much indicates the same thing.

So what prompted you to action? Crisis, fear of loss. It was only when you were faced with losing something that you finally decided to act.

Regardless of how "blind" you might have been during the marriage/relationship, you all had some clues & indicators that your spouse wasn't happy. You just thought you would plug along as you have been doing, thinking that your spouses would get out of their funk eventually and just be loving & caring. Maybe some of you felt that the other spouse had to change because they had "changed" into someone you didn't recognize anymore and you weren't going to fix anything until they fixed it, it was their responsibility, their fault, since they are married, they had an obligation to do something as well. Yes this is all very "unique".

Here is also something "unique".... you all want an answer NOW.
How do I do this? How do I respond when they do this? What is my next move? Should I do this and employ this tactic? What do I say when they do this? My personal favorite: How do I GAL when they've moved away and won't even notice my changes?

Yes you're all very "unique".

You all want to fix your relationships now, something that is also "unique". I want results now, I NEED RESULTS NOW! Read those words, think about the times that you yourself may have even said those things or something similar or even just thought about it. Reflect on how needy you've become, how insecure you've become, how unattractive that behavior really is: ME, ME, ME, ME, ME!

I've said it before, consumerism isn't just alive & well at the shopping malls. It's alive & well in your relationships. I want something new, improved, better, faster, stronger, and I want it NOW! It took years to create the problems that you are a part of but you all want a fix now. The microwave isn't fast enough, the car isn't fast enough, high speed internet isn't fast enough, the computer definitely isn't fast enough and there aren't enough hours in the day. Do any of you recognize the recurring theme here? You all want what you want and you all want it NOW!

Well your marriage isn't a microwave dinner and you aren't going to be able to nuke it and make it ready in 30 seconds. The sooner you realize this, the sooner you can start doing the real work which takes time, effort, consistency of action (which builds trust) and the willingness to do things that you haven't done before, something that the "old" you wouldn't have done because the "old" you was boring and not willing to adapt & change.

You want to be efficient at cooking dinner, go for it.
You want to be efficient at work, go for it.
You want to be efficient at doing the laundry and taking care of your homes, go for it.

When it comes to your relationships and repairing the damage that took years to build up and destroy your marriages, there is no 30 second nuke button to hit. The repair process takes time, it takes a long time to heal a heart, it takes a long time to rebuild trust, it takes a long time to fix a relationship because it took a long time to break it.

This is a common fact for you all of you. This process will take time, alot of time. Trying to implement a quick fix will actually slow down your progress - that is the only guarantee I can provide to all of you. Trying to force your relationship to heal at a quicker pace will cause more damage. You will inevitably reveal to your spouse how selfish you are and that the only reason you want to recover this relationship is for you and not for them and they will see through that.

The "BS-meter", all of your WAS's are equipped with this piece of equipment, if you're not sincere in your efforts they will be able to tell and it will erase any progress you've made and even set you back a few steps.

Slow is fast, Fast is slow - tattoo this to your foreheads if you can't remember it.

I can't count how many situations I've read in these various forum posts where the LBS is making real progress, their WAS is warming up to them again, calling them, interacting, communicating, smiling, spending more time, doing things together, emailing, texting, etc. And after 1 or 2 days/weeks, the LBS figures it's time to press the WAS for marriage counselling or talking about the relationship and reconciliation. It took a few years to damage your relationship but you figure after a few weeks of peaceful interactions with your WAS that it's time to force them to make a decision about reconciling with you. You are all very "unique" in this respect. You all do this or will do this in your own "unique" ways.

Here's a novel idea.... the WAS that left you because they didn't want to be with you is suddenly spending more time with you, suddenly communicating with you more often, doing things with you, smiling with you, is comfortable with you. Keep doing what you're doing! Don't bring up relationship talk, talks of reconciling, enjoy the moment! Stop worrying about the future, you don't know what tomorrow will bring so stop worry about tomorrow, enjoy today if today is the day your WAS wants to talk with you and share a drink or a meal with you or wants to do something with you & the kids. Be humble and appreciate the time you have with them, don't hasten the process and demand that things have to change and that you need to reconcile at this moment. Consider this a form of dating even if it isn't officially labeled as such. Stop forcing your spouses to have to be with you. If you have to force someone to love you and be with you, do you really want to be with those people? If those same WAS's make moves towards you, to communicate, to spend time with you & your children, to come over, to share a meal, etc. Enjoy that time you have with them, celebrate a success internally with yourself that you were able to accomplish something of such a grand nature when this WAS originally left you and never wanted to interact with you anymore. Stop asking for more, start appreciating what you have and stop believing that you deserve more than what you have - truth be told no one deserves anything, you get what you get in life because you placed yourself on that path to get the results you received. Stop believing you are entitled to something, entitlement breeds resentment and that will lead you down a path of anger & disappointment and poor results.

Rebuild yourself, change yourself for you first. Become a better person for you. Reclaim your individuality. You were an individual before you were a part of this relationship with your WAS. It was your individuality that made you attractive, learn what it is to become you again, enjoy being you, continue pressing forward, personal development is a lifelong process, don't be lazy with yourself, be the best you that you can be.

The repair process is slow, anyone preaching a quick fix does not know what they're talking about.

There are also many methods to possibly accomplish the herculean task of repairing your marriage, "busting your divorce". Many of us will have many ideas on what you can do to accomplish this task. None are guaranteed to work, remember there are no guarantees. But if you fail to act, you are acting to fail and will achieve those results. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over & over again and expecting different results. So one piece of advice that will be common to all of you, do things differently from what you are doing now and please stop whining and saying "I can't do this", "I can't do that", it's that same attitude that got you into this mess to begin with - you can do it, you just don't want to do it and it's that same attitude that prompted your WAS to leave you.

You all have questions, you all want advice, you all have pain, you all claim to love your spouses but your past actions with them might indicate otherwise, you all want your spouses back - and yet you all claim to have "unique" situations.

Give yourself the time to find those answers to those questions, give yourself time to improve yourself for you first and then your children, don't change for your spouse - that is definitely the wrong thing to do, remember the "BS-meter" that I mentioned previously. Give yourself time to heal from your pain, admit to yourself that if your spouse has hurt you, they may not be able to do anything to rectify that with you, you in the end have the ability to forgive them for what they may have done, that is within your control and that is your choice. Allow them the same courtesy, to heal within their own amount of time, allow them the choice of forgiving you and realize that no one owes you anything.

If you pray to GOD (and if you don't maybe you should but then again, that is YOUR choice), pray for CLARITY so that you have a clear mind that your vision is restored so that you can see clearly enough to know what you want and know what you have to do. Pray for the CONFIDENCE to take action on the choices you make and pray for WISDOM to choose wisely.

Stop praying for a quick fix to your problems, it doesn't exist.
There is no QUICK SOLUTION.

And if you want to truly be "UNIQUE", start by doing things that you normally wouldn't do, start by letting go of the need to control others and realize that you can only control your thoughts & actions. Respect your WAS's decision to leave you, you gave them reason to do so, if you want them back you will need to give them a reason to come back and that doesn't mean calling them and making them feel guilty for their actions. You want the reason they come back to you to be because they want to be with you and you can only promote that kind of feeling in others by making changes in yourself that would allow that kind of environment to exist and know that the changes you make in yourself aren't being done for your spouse, they're being done because you ultimately want to live a great life and you realize how you were living before wasn't great.

If you want to be "unique", and this is for all of you and especially those of you that feel like doormats in your current situations: Grow a spine and start to stand up for yourself. It’s impossible to truly love yourself & draw self esteem from within if you are letting people walk all over you. Every time you let someone treat you badly your self esteem drops just a little bit. If you can't respect yourself, how can you expect others to respect you, how can you expect others to love you?

If you want to be "unique", and this is for all of you that happen to unfortunately be in abusive relationships: Love yourself and respect yourself enough to let go of the people that don't value you or the relationship they have with you - it is one of the toughest lesson's you will ever learn but also the most rewarding.

I wish all of you "unique" db'ers a good day,
hopefully some of you saw yourselves in the examples listed above and hopefully you have some additional clarity into what you are currently doing

The rest of the thread is here http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1867000&page=1

Maybell, you are worthy. If I've been hard on you it's because I see your worth and your strength.((( )))

[claire7]

Maybell,

I'm so sorry that you are hurting so much right now. And I'm so appreciative that you took the time to post on my thread. I read back a few pages on this thread, and found lots of great advice from labug. Man, she asks tough questions!

This is a good time of year to sit back and reflect, and set goals-- but maybe not to act on anything just yet. Because it's also a really emotional time of year-- for everyone.

[Maybell]

Thank you, Labug. That's another one I'm going to have to print and come back to.

That was a lot of time I spent with him yesterday. It's like during the summer when I would go on all those tirades about I'd might as well just file now. Only three months of distance has made it possible for this to be a one-day festival of emotion, kept mostly contained and not communicated to him as it was during that time.

I am a better person with and for the kids. Trying to have stronger boundaries has led to the backlash with my mom, which weakens me in other ways. I was NOT a whole person when H and I got married, though I made a heroic (and largely successful) effort a few years in to be more whole.

If I were my H I would not want to be married to me now. I would not have wanted to be married to me in the last 2-3 years, maybe. I would like to become a woman only a fool would leave. And I appreciate your honesty because it's true, constructive, and kind at the same time.

I've got to think on all this. Today has been rough.

[lost18]

I want to change my life NOW. I want my H to either man up and return to the marriage or LEAVE.

This is so me right now. I hope you're doing better. Every time I read you're posts I see me. A lot of what you say is the same way I feel. I read your posts the other day about feeling inadequate, weird because that was the word I finally used to describe how I felt in my marriage and as a mother.

A new year is coming, I hope we can all start fresh!

[Maybell]

Preliminary thoughts after a night of hard sleep (and I need more)

1) yes -- more time is required -- I am hurt and not capable of much generosity. Need to take time to heal from that.

2) him same. I do not understand where his hurt comes from and that's frustrating. But it may not be all me.

3) I've been praying for clarity like mad. If the reluctance I feel to end this marriage is my clarity then I need to pray for patience too. And spend some time in my journal spelling out all the things I feel hurt about so I can acknowledge them and begin to let them go. If it's not then I need to pray for courage.

Thank God Christmas is only once a year. I can't spend this much time with him again for a long time. It would kill all my progress.

[mustardseed]

I'm with you Maybell. I just want to move on with my life, and he is my donkey (or shall we say ass) that refuses to budge. He just dug his heals in the sand and said, "I'm not going any farther with you" but hasn't done a darn thing about it.

So my choice is to just hang around in that spot, making the most of it while he figures it out (DBing) or taking what things I can and charging ahead alone (filing). But one more month of this living situation and I think I'm going to explode. Yet I have an appointment with the lawyer Monday and I am still not sure what I am going to do when I get there. I've been hiding in my bedroom since yesterday morning. Today I have to make it appoint to get up and out and GAL.

[mustardseed]

Also, about patience. It is the hardest part of all of this. But if you can get yourself to a peaceful detached place it is easier because then your focus is off your marriage and instead on you and what you can do right now for yourself. With or without him. Let his part happen in the background. Think of all of the things in our lives that require patience and how we deal with it.

Long lines: I text my friends or play games on my phone. Traffic: I listen to podcasts or audiobooks. On hold on the phone: I google or clean or do something. Whenever we need to be patient we figure out other places to focus our attention so that the experience is so much more pleasant. It's the same thing with your marriage right now. You can't control the timing of things, but you can make the most of it.

[Maybell]

Stop worrying about the future, you don't know what tomorrow will bring so stop worry about tomorrow, enjoy today if today is the day your WAS wants to talk with you and share a drink or a meal with you or wants to do something with you & the kids. Be humble and appreciate the time you have with them, don't hasten the process and demand that things have to change and that you need to reconcile at this moment. Consider this a form of dating even if it isn't officially labeled as such. Stop forcing your spouses to have to be with you. If you have to force someone to love you and be with you, do you really want to be with those people? If those same WAS's make moves towards you, to communicate, to spend time with you & your children, to come over, to share a meal, etc. Enjoy that time you have with them, celebrate a success internally with yourself that you were able to accomplish something of such a grand nature when this WAS originally left you and never wanted to interact with you anymore. Stop asking for more, start appreciating what you have and stop believing that you deserve more than what you have - truth be told no one deserves anything, you get what you get in life because you placed yourself on that path to get the results you received. Stop believing you are entitled to something, entitlement breeds resentment and that will lead you down a path of anger & disappointment and poor results.

OK. So I think my H does want to do some of these things. He accepts every invitation I have made (or pretty close). He was really angry when I said no to his invitation to Christmas Eve dinner. He has (probably unconsciously) used language to make it seem like the door to R is still open.

I am not capable of walking through that open door at this time. I'm not trying to hold on to all the hurt, but I did suppress a TON of it for a really long time while I was begging and pleading and now I have to experience it and put off meeting him where he is because I can't get there at this time.

Christmas Day was much harder on me than I realized at the time. When he walked out the door I felt relieved that I had made it through as calmly as I had. Was as friendly to him as I would have been to a neighbor visiting (maybe slightly less).

The fact is that my pain is part of today. I would like the door to be open for the future but at the moment I think I have other fish to fry. I won't be able to enjoy his company or whatever as this excerpt describes while I'm still processing through my own feelings about the relationship. I'm just not that good.

I think the IC I have the appointment with isn't going to be a good fit. I already don't feel confident about her. I think I'd like to cancel that appointment and keep looking around for someone who sounds strong and confident. I don't think this is me avoiding my issues. I think this is me trying to avoid getting burned for the 3rd time.

Am I on the right track again?

[Jefe]

Sounds like it to me. If you don't jive with your IC, change quickly.

If you still have any resentment towards H, it will be almost impossible to try and reconcile. You've got to work through that first. You have enough insight to your own feelings that I believe you are doing better than you think.

[Georgiabelle]

Maybell,

I'm sorry you are having a difficult time. It is such a challenging time of year.

From the outsider's perspective, I think you are being too hard on yourself. You make it sound like no way could your h have possibly loved you the last few years. Perhaps you could have done things differently, however you were doing the best you could at the time. And just a reminder, while you can't change him, it is worth saying that your h has his own issues. You are not responsible for his issues and it sounds like you are trying to take blame for things that are not your responsibility.

Labug said something that really resonates with me and probably many others. Every marriage can't be saved (and I'm not advocating D or saying to file) and the reality is every M shouldn't be saved. Honestly (and it pains me to admit this) I believe I fall into the latter. It doesn't exactly make my day to hear that, however I have been told by mutilple people that I seem like a burden has been lifted off me and that I glow. Even though that surprises me, at my core, I know they are right. Ugh!!! My xh is not a bad person rather he is mentally ill and plays the victim in life. It's who is he and who he was for our M.

I didn't mean to hijack. Sorry-I do that sometimes. Just wanted to let you know you aren't a * bad* person. You are worthy of love.

[Maybell]

Thanks, GB, and it wasn't a hijack. Everybody's story is instructive. It gives new perspective on the different ways we can and do respond to things around us.

I have no idea if our M can or should be saved. That's what makes me wobble so much. Yes, he has his own issues, and I struggle sometimes to remember that, and sometimes I'm so angry with him I focus on those without thinking of mine. I'd like to be more objective. Robx was right, but also a bit harsh in laying blame for the separation on the LBS.

Healthy people deal with their issues in more ways than avoiding, cheating, and running away.

I know ways I behaved that he didn't like. I don't think any of them were so significant that I deserved to be ignored, cheated on, and abandoned. I think had he been healthier I also would have been healthier. I think some of my unhealthy behaviors were an effort to compensate for some of his unhealthy behaviors. But I struggle to remember that with some of the messages here about change yourself first, be a spouse only a fool would leave, etc.

I'm MUCH better today than I was yesterday. I slept REALLY late this morning -- later than I EVER do, even when the kids were tiny, and I've been moving kind of slowly today, just trying to be kind to myself.

Thanks for the reassurance, GB and Jefe. I appreciate your checking in with me.

[Maybell]

What makes a marriage or relationship good? It's more complicated than meeting needs or speaking one another's love languages, isn't it?

[gan]

Funny - I was going to post something similar, only in terms of compatibility. Many books poo poo the term but I wonder?

A good relationship to me is...supporting and encouraging each other so that we both can feel fulfilled in life. Meeting needs and LL play into that, but so too do things having similar values, similar goals etc

[KGirl]

Similarly to what Gbelle said, you don't need to take on 100% of the responsibility for what happened. But it's probably not 0% either, but rather somewhere in-between. All we can do is recognize our behaviors and attitudes that contributed, and work on those. Yes, our H's have their own issues, and we can't do anything about them, and who knows what % of the contribution those are (trying to define it will get us nowhere productive). If you do everything within your circle of influence and he does nothing/is still uninterested... now you're ready for the next things that come your way I do agree that the emphasis on how we have to carry 100% of the effort right now, etc., makes it feel like it's all us that is the problem... but it's really not. That's just the only thing we have the power to fix. Our H's issues are theirs, but it's good to keep in mind that those are there, too, and the collapse of our M's is not all our responsibility.

There are probably a gazillion books and websites out there about what makes a relationship "good" And the real answer is going to vary a lot from person to person and couple to couple. To me, it involves hearing the other person and respecting and acknowledging their point of view (which I think manifests itself in meeting R needs and speaking love languages), honest and open communication, and some shared values and goals. I think I've read in books or articles that working together towards those values and goals is key. I have friends whose spouses have very different interests and hobbies than their own but at the end of the day they still enjoy spending time together, have some shared values about what's important in life and who they would like to be as adults, things like that. "Compatibility" is kind of a mysterious term. I don't think it has to mean you both like camping, or dogs, or whatever, but moreso how you communicate and view the world, maybe?

[labug]

Similarly to what Gbelle said, you don't need to take on 100% of the responsibility for what happened. But it's probably not 0% either, but rather somewhere in-between. All we can do is recognize our behaviors and attitudes that contributed, and work on those. Yes, our H's have their own issues, and we can't do anything about them, and who knows what % of the contribution those are (trying to define it will get us nowhere productive). If you do everything within your circle of influence and he does nothing/is still uninterested... now you're ready for the next things that come your way I do agree that the emphasis on how we have to carry 100% of the effort right now, etc., makes it feel like it's all us that is the problem... but it's really not. That's just the only thing we have the power to fix. Our H's issues are theirs, but it's good to keep in mind that those are there, too, and the collapse of our M's is not all our responsibility.

There are probably a gazillion books and websites out there about what makes a relationship "good" And the real answer is going to vary a lot from person to person and couple to couple. To me, it involves hearing the other person and respecting and acknowledging their point of view (which I think manifests itself in meeting R needs and speaking love languages), honest and open communication, and some shared values and goals. I think I've read in books or articles that working together towards those values and goals is key. I have friends whose spouses have very different interests and hobbies than their own but at the end of the day they still enjoy spending time together, have some shared values about what's important in life and who they would like to be as adults, things like that. "Compatibility" is kind of a mysterious term. I don't think it has to mean you both like camping, or dogs, or whatever, but moreso how you communicate and view the world, maybe?

I was going to post but K beat me to it. This girl's go IT!

[LisaB]

Thanks for sharing this Robx post Labug, and thanks Maybell for sharing on Ganb8te's thread. Very good info and food for thought.

[Maybell]

Several of us have talked about meeting single friends to make GALing easier. Well, I've met several... I'm finding it tricky. Most of these women are WAWs. The few that are LBS are either bitter (oh, so bitter) or so private we can't approach one another. It's really hard for me to feel sympathetic to a WAW. And they seem so sad and confused.

Is this my future post-M?

[claire7]

Wow maybell. I've had a very similar experience. It's hard to talk to the WAW friends. Just such a different perspective that I have trouble understanding. (Though in all cases, the LBS did not become someone only a fool would leave).

I wish there was a way for some like-minded folks here to meet up. Oh well. Virtual support will have to do.

But wouldn't a weekend retreat or conference be terrific? !

[SunnyB]

Wow that never occurred to me. I don't know who I
thought these people would be. That's a little discouraging.

[Maybell]

Claire, yes, the LBS didn't become someone only a fool would leave. So depressing.

Which makes me wonder if my "future soul mate" (as the psychic claimed) is going to be a cheater or a dud?

On a somewhat lighter note, the psychic read the sister of a friend of mine -- she and her H are in serious trouble, both have had affairs. The psychic "read" the affair in her aura right away and spent probably 20 minutes telling my friend's sister that she had utterly ruined her karma, that affairs are never fate or accident, that they are always a choice and that the cheater will have to really work to correct their karma or suffer for it for life and into future lives. She was HIGHLY offended.

I'm on the fence what I think of the psychic business. She told me I'm an empath who has to protect myself from other people's negative energy. That kind of rings true for me (and explains the responsibility I took for his feelings in my marriage). She spent a lot of time telling me what protection to use to cleanse myself of other people's energy.

I wonder if *thats* why I always have such blowback after I spend time with H? His bad juju is polluting my aura?

[claire7]

Grab some sage and cleanse everything right up!

[zew]

Claire, I see what you did there... After seeing the psychic, you want her to cleanse with some sage...

[Maybell]

This was on Poirot's thread:

watching Joel Osteen on TV. He's talking about letting go and moving forward. I'm not religious... but I like and recommend him. "You may have had an unfair past... but you don't have to have an unfair future. Move forward." Good stuff.

I learned a few days ago that one of my uncle's has just been diagnosed with a second round of cancer, and this time it is definitely terminal. There are pictures of my cousins celebrating what is likely his last Christmas with him that look really happy.

Twenty? years ago this uncle had an affair and divorced his first wife (my cousins' mom) in a VERY acrimonious divorce. So acrimonious that my cousins had to have separate wedding arrangements to accommodate both their parents. So acrimonious I've never seen or heard from my former aunt since.

In a statistics-defying turn of events, my uncle married the OW, helped raise her two young children, and had two more children with her. She's by his side now, for his final Christmas. When I was a kid, his rages terrified me. He looks like a different man now. And is clearly dearly loved by all six kids and all the grandkids.

My youngest uncle also was divorced by his party-animal first wife (no kids). He was so crushed. Married a few years later the BEST woman and is still living happily ever after today.

Endings can open doors to amazing beginnings.

I've had a rough day. Big BD sobs bubbling out of me from time to time all day and I'm not sure what I'm crying over. Though I have made up my mind that it's time to move forward, to tell him we need to separate the finances and prepare to sell the house. I'm done playing lady of the manor. I want to be myself.

[HPoirot]

Hello Maybell. That is exactly what Osteen was talking about. The trick is DBing... letting go of the hurt and the one who hurt you. Framing BD as the best thing that ever happened to you, then move forward to the promise of something better. That's all. Best to you. Just keep going.

[SunnyB]

Maybell I've become a big Joel Osteen fan the past few months. I listen to him on XM radio. There has been more than once that his message hit me right between the eyes, just what I needed to hear at the moment. I especially appreciate his message that a past failed relationship doesn't define your future. I find that very encouraging.

[Underdog]

Maybell--My BFF and I (both Catholic) are huge fans of Joel. We both find it oddly comforting that the message we hear is what we need. And actually, my pastor has the same ability in his homilies. I love how that happens. If you keep your heart, mind and soul open, the messages are all around us for the taking. How beautiful is that?

Hope your week is going well, and happy New Year-

Betsey

[Maybell]

Thanks, Betsey!

I've been getting helpful messages from all over the place, so if it's time for me to open my mind to Joel Osteen then I am willing to do so.

I took the kids to see an amazing light display this evening and we had SUCH a great time. Then we got home and somehow D11 just fell to bits. Turned into a gigantic temper tantrum. It threatened to turn really ugly. But somehow... It cut short. I don't know if it was me or her that made it stop, but somehow, it slowed and then stopped. Thank God. Truly.

I worry so much about her. She's all locked up in herself. If I try to talk seriously to her she does everything she can to divert me. She behaves utterly absurdly trying to keep me from talking to her. It works with H. He laughs and "forgets" to hold her accountable (she told me this).

She was demonstrating her Daddy Distraction techniques and laughing and her eyes filled with tears. I asked her what was wrong and she said she didn't know and didn't want to think about it. Started cutting up again. I said, "you don't have to talk about it a lot. If you can just say to yourself X is bothering me you'll feel better." She said No. And I dropped it. The bell was rung.

She weeps at the idea of counseling, it scares her so much. I worry about her.

Had a pleasant, shallow exchange by email with H today about boys' upcoming birthdays. He initiated. Nothing to report.

My MIL gave me a very generous Christmas gift. H said, "she's trying." I forgive her. Shes unhappy in her own marriage; not a great resource for her struggling son. My FIL tried to call the house last night while I was out. He hasn't called here in eight months and it makes me wonder what's up. Que sera sera.

I don't know if I have a long haul in me. If we have to sell this house that we closed on after he started the affair... I don't know if I would have it in me to let him into my life again if I have to go through that because of his selfishness. I can't really remember what I really value about him. when I think of so many of our years together I don't feel like he ever valued me. I'm not willing to live with so little anymore, now that I've taken the hit. He'd have to be a mostly brand-new person for me to be willing to be in a relationship with him. That doesn't hurt the way it used to. It's just sad.

D11's tantrum tonight went differently than in the past. That tells me a lot. I really have changed. I like it. I hope someday I'm with someone who cares about and appreciates me. I don't expect it to be my H.

[HPoirot]

Hello again Maybell. I now get help from the Joel Osteen too. Tape all his shows on the DVR. You may not know if you have the long haul in you now. But you know how you'll feel much better after you put on some Joel. And I like that you like how you've changed. Inspirational. Better is coming for you Maybell.

[claire7]

Maybell,

I just wanted to say that I can empathize with what a painful place you are in. Congrats on all the positives-- it sounds like your approach with your D is working and things are moving in a positive direction. I loved the advice you gave HP for his son. 11 is a really tough age to parent (or teach, in my case), but probably way harder to BE.

Letting go releases a whole new kind of grief.. but you will get through it.

Hang in there.

[SunnyB]

Maybell I loved your post. It sounds like you are seeing positives in a lot of ways--your D, your MIL, even the bland exchange with H is a bonus, honestly. You seem to better with a little distance. Hope you have a great day today!

[Maybell]

Just having a moment in the mall parking lot. It's kind of embarrassing. I don't know what set it off but I'm so angry with H. He never even asked about NYE. I'm happy to be with my kids but I'd like to kick the SOB today for being such a chitty husband and a cr@ppy dad and a self-absorbed entitled a-hole. I wish I were already divorced from him so I didn't have another house sale and move in front of me.

I want to say I hate him but I wish I were just indifferent. I wish I could kick him or break all his dishes and rent goats to eat all his clothes. He doesn't deserve my pain.

[Maybell]

AND I just got an email from him saying he wants us to schedule a time to "talk about all the stuff we've been avoiding talking about."

I hate him. I hope karma gets him good.

[Wonka]

Maybell,

H is not causing you pain. It is self-inflicted by keeping your hand on the hot stovetop. Remove your hand from the coal-hot stove and you'll feel better. How?

He doesn't deserve my pain.

Change the narrative in your head from victimhood to awesomeness! Change your thoughts and your emotions will follow. We assign emotions in response to people and events. It is a choice. However, it doesn't mean that you deny those feelings. Acknowledging them informs you of what needs to be worked on or to delve further toward self-actualization.

[Maybell]

My MIL send me a weirdly large gift that I was trying to exchange but couldn't because the packing list isn't in the box and I left the store and fell to pieces. I've been doing so well till today. I don't like setbacks.

Also I need to find a better lawyer and now it's more urgent. And the child support I can expect will just barely cover my daycare costs and I don't know if the child support can be adjusted to reflect this expense because I wasn't employed when I last meeting my L and I don't know how that's split. And I don't want to have to live through selling another house. I just don't have it in me anymore.

[raliced]

Deep Breath Maybell,

You can do this! Of course, I am not a lawyer and don't know what state you live in, but in mine, if it gets to court, they take into account who "gets" to work because the kids are in childcare - which in this case would be both of you - so I think its reasonable to expect he would need to contribute more for that.

Find that lawyer and talk about options - including how much you are dreading selling that house. Maybe they have some suggestions that would allow you to move before it is sold so that you don't have to deal with all the stress of keeping it walk through ready.

When you interview lawyers, make sure you stress how important prompt feedback is for you, since that sounds like something that adds to your stress level.

Hang Tough Maybell! The year's almost over!

[Faith2b]

Hello Im not sure if this helps but me and my exh had an arrangement that he pays for child care and medical. he pays me childsupport as well but all the expenses that come with child care are his resposibility. Also this can be worked out in mediation. Or yoou can sit down and write what works for you alot of times lawyers with drag their feet but it will be well worth energy to write and send what you need to your lawyer to get things moving. Also I say never leave the house. If you fall on tough timesok. But call and let your mortgage company know what going on just keep everything moving wethr you cna pay or not. Eventually things will work out. We just sold our marital home Im very upset about it but hey I will get money back from the sell and I foound something it may be a two bedroom with my three babies but hey it works for now and I no longer have to worry about a huge house. I can actually GAL hope this is helpful.

[Faith2b]

Also the comment "He doesnt deserve my pain"


No he doesnt pain is a natural thing its yours alone. Pain can be beautiful it forces you to grow. It forces you to except that their is something missing. Its only tragic to have pain if we miss the message it is trying to give us. We all have choices. To GAL will be to take the good and the bad and become one with where you go!! The pain will only last for a while. The maturity gained from your struggle will be lasting. This jorney will be worth it pain and all dont forget that!! Strive for the answer its there!

[Maybell]

The thing I'm angriest about is that except the kids, it's all HIS life choices (moves, frequent job changes, not spending time together, how he handled the MBA) that put the most stress on our relationship. And then he decides HE's overwhelmed and dissatisfied and walks away leaving ME with the worst of the consequences.

I am better off alone. He was never a real partner to me.

[Maybell]

Faith, I've been growing and growing and growing for years. I'm tired of growing. I just want to flower. Or hibernate for a bit.

[Calibri]

Maybell,

I think you are flowering. It may not seem like it -- but you're blossoming right before our (and your) eyes.

Today is tough (I'm having a tough day as well). You're tougher.

Hugs to you and wishes for a peaceful evening.

[T384]

Hugs Maybell. I may not comment because you are usually more insightful and already receive great advice but know that your H is a fool. He may never figure that out

Remember, we may not choose the obstacles that are placed in our path but we do choose how to conquer them

Happy New Year!

[Faith2b]

I can totally relate abut job changing and constantly moving. I understand being drained and tired. But we have to make a choice to break away and take care of ourselves everything depends on it. Their is two people in a relationship yes. But it only takes one to truly take care of their selves even if that means asking yourself daily how can I GAL for me today. Its like brushing your teeth daily you have to do this. Taking care of you must be the first waking question...What does Maybell need to make this day be as peaceful as possible for myself and then that will be the light that the kids and the hubby can find save haven in.

[Faith2b]

You have to fight to choose yourself you cant get tired when you think this way. The first step is GAL and it makes more sense to me now. This whole thing that is just a horrible stage in our lives dont forget is only temporary. Remember though the tired times can be resolved think of you and how you can restore peace within through prayer yoga exercise. We can never be tired of saving our own selves first even before we save the marriage. How can we even save a marriage when we cant save ourselves just think about it we can do this!!!!

[Maybell]

I GALed like crazy for years before he left. I have been GALing like crazy the last year. I have a new full time job after having been a SAHM for 12 years. I am just getting through the holidays. I am physically TIRED because I don't get enough sleep or exercise since I went back to work (I ran a half marathon a year ago, for pete's sake!) and I wobbled because I hit a roadblock in a weird place. I woke up today in a happy mood and I will be happy again before I go to bed. I have a wonderful weekend planned with my kids.

I won't be saving this marriage. I have done everything I can do. His attention is elsewhere. I will be working towards taking care of myself. But the work that needs to be done to make that happen is very large and I'm ANGRY that it needs to be done because I wanted to RENT and he insisted we BUY and he started the affair before we even closed on the house and now I'm going to have to pack and move because of his selfish choices and cowardice.

Faith, I appreciate your support. I have been at this a LONG time. Sometimes I wobble. It's a dip on the way to the next high.