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#2508234 11/18/14 05:34 AM
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Mozza 1 - 2009 near-separation, search for explanations.
Mozza 2 - OM confirmed through kids on Halloween, refocus on me rather than blaming W.
Mozza 3 - OM confirmed by W in email, strollergate, W has problems at work, unexpected blind date.
Mozza 4 - Lunch with W went well, reflections on being dumped, kids and OM

My story
After 9.5 years together, my W announced in early September that she wanted a separation. A week of pleading and begging didn't change a thing. She said I was criticizing her too much, that she was unhappy and no longer in love with me and she didn't want to live with half-emotions. A week later, she had moved out. A month and a half later, she revealed that she was going out with a coworker, met at the new job she started a month before BD (after a year of job-seeking). He's a good listener, 10 years younger than me, better-looking and athletic. He'd been courting her from week 1 and was present throughout her move. It didn't come as a surprise when she told me they were together. He left his gf to be with my W. My kids know and like him.

DBing
I accept responsibility for what I did in the M, though I don't always feel responsible for the S because the OM shouldn't have courted a married W with 2 kids and more importantly that she should have told me and resisted. In any case, the only useful path is to reflect on my changes. I need to be less critical and less dismissive of my W's emotions. She had voiced her pain several times before the BD and none of her reasons to leave me (she didn't mention OM) were new to me. I had ignored her and she was hopeless that things could improve. There was more fighting than average in the months leading to BD. She said we were incompatible.

I'm good at being silent and distant, so much that she once called me to ask why I was so hard to reach. The "no pursuing" rule is easy to apply for me because it means doing nothing. What I'm not so good is acting normal and upbeat around her and what I'm awful at is detaching. Two months after she left, I can still feel like she left 10 minutes ago, disbelieving the whole thing is happening. My kids (D6, D3) take to the separation as if nothing happened.
_________________________________________________

Success stories
Feel free to make suggestions, especially with links to threads. I wish we had room in our profile to tell our story so that the vets and other successes could give us a quick summary.

RECONCILIATION
Thornton (M) - May to July 2014
Train (W) - Reconciled in 2014
Labug (W) - March 2011 to December 2013
HopefulStill - reconciled in 2012
minkerman (M) - Reconciled after 4 months in 2008
25yearsmlc (W) - 2005 to August 2008
FaithfulH - Reconciled in 2007
sandi2 (W) - ?
MrBond (M) - Used to have another screen name
Starsky309 (M) - (ChocolateEyes, Puppy Dog Tails) - Aug 2007 to 2009 . Reconciled after dated another woman.
Butterflymom127 and FavoriteWeirdo - Thread

PIECING AS OF 2014
Crimson
T0324
Heart14
Nitty - BD in December 2013, piecing as of September 2014

LET GO
pearlharbr (W) - November 2008 to June 2010 (19 months)
Snow White (W) - 2008-2009 2008-2009. Let go when her H wanted back in.


M39 D6 D3 (at S)
S 2014-09
D 2016-09

"You can't start a fire sitting around, crying over a broken heart" - Bruce Springsteen.
Mozza #2508240 11/18/14 05:51 AM
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Surprise! And good news.

My W called my parents tonight. This was her second attempt since S and the first time she actually reached them. It was a very positive call. She talked about the lunch we had last week as being very, very pleasant and fun. She said how much we get along, especially regarding the kids (i.e. we're just not good as a couple). She reminisced about good times spent at my parent's house, saying she missed it (my mom said it might happen again in the future - argh quit pursuing! ;-)). She also talked about her recent challenges at work and dropped some information about the kids. She invited my parents to visit next time they're in town - my parents are not so hot about that.

Now, this could be her just "succeeding at S" ("OM in bed, H with kids - everything in its right place!"), but I'll take it tonight as nice baby steps. After all, how much better than this can it be while she's in a honeymoon (I guess) with the OM? It sounds like she'll have nice things to think about when things aren't so good with OM.


M39 D6 D3 (at S)
S 2014-09
D 2016-09

"You can't start a fire sitting around, crying over a broken heart" - Bruce Springsteen.
Mozza #2508254 11/18/14 08:59 AM
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Morning mozza (here anyway)

Good recap and I do like your reference list of success stories.

Something 25 said prompted this but I can't remember if I've seen a little list from you of what changes you need to make in yourself (and I'll set you the same scorecard challenge you set me). It might be a useful stock take for the start of a new thread


Both mid 30s, 2 young kids
BD 7sep14
XW moved on long ago, now living with OM1
D paperwork in progress
jim0987 #2508258 11/18/14 10:42 AM
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Another reconciliation success story...
Coach... around 7/08


http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...475#Post1599475


Justin Credible
JCred #2508461 11/18/14 09:28 PM
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Thanks jim0987, challenge accepted.

My 180s.
1. No criticism. Harder than it looks because it seeps into everything, without me realizing it. Still, I feel I'm doing well on this front. 7/10
2. No control. If it's not life-threatening, I let her do just about anything. She forgets to return some kids stuff? I buy it again. 8/10
3. No pursuing. Until the day she left home, I cried and begged and made it plain I wanted her to stay. Since her departure, it's been much easier to keep my distances and not pursue. 8/10
4. Validation. I used to be a problem-solver and now I just validate her feelings and ask questions, when she initiates conversation about something she cares about (work). 7/10
5. Less self-deprecation. It's part of my sense of humor and general perception of what is humility. Quite hard to change. 4/10

My changes
1. New clothes. Not a lot because I already have tons and they look fairly good. Still, I'm on the hunt for more.
2. Workout: 7 minute exercise daily. I can feel and see the difference after about a month. And the kids love to take part.
3. Body grooming. I now have a cleansing gel, a new body gel, anti-wrinkle care, went to a beautician, let my hair grow a little, groom body hair, wear cologne,... I've got a couple of spontaneous compliments: "You look better, not sure what it is"
4. New recipes. I've added my first deserts, among other things. I'm taking a class this Friday.
5. Daily pic on Instagram. It's a small thing, but it forces me to look around for beauty and it's a great record of my GAL.
6. Record "3 grateful things" daily to focus on positive.
7. Reading about relationships. This is new for me and comes a little late for this M...

2-3 things I want to improve about my marriage (DR, chapter 3)
This is delicate because my W has moved out and has a relationship with OM, and to her it's clearly over (I hope it's the fog).

1. Meet for an agreeable lunch at least once a month. Lunch was pleasant and she said so to my parents. Success.
2. Email about stuff that’s important and emotional. She tells me about her work issues and aspirations. At this stage, I say it's a success.
3. Have one email exchange that she wouldn’t show to her OM! Not easy because she initiatives, but I don't think she'd show him that we joked about Kim Kardashian's butt. Success.
4. Getting a positive reaction to her love language. Her LL is words of affirmation. She gave me a capital-letter THANK YOU when I wished her luck for her last day with her boss-from-hell. Success.

Looks like I need a new list. I'm tempted to go for a second round of this one though.

I'll address 25yearsmlc's questions soon.


M39 D6 D3 (at S)
S 2014-09
D 2016-09

"You can't start a fire sitting around, crying over a broken heart" - Bruce Springsteen.
Mozza #2508592 11/19/14 03:11 AM
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I need advice. I'd have to send an email to W. Usually, it would be pretty plain, but in such a sitch... I think it's self-explanatory. It's about school pics and insurance.

Quote:
Hi,

Thanks for the pic of D6. I thought I had ordered the full package, with the small and medium ones, but I might have made a mistake. Are there any left?

Also, for D3 I hadn't ordered any [she sent me tons] but I could keep a few. Do you want the rest?

For the insurance, there seems to be only 300$ available for IC. Have you used it already? [I think her sessions are covered elsewhere] If not, would you mind putting in the claim if I bring you the receipt?

It seems to be a burdensome email full of requests and veiled criticism (you sent me the wrong pics! you'll have to deal with insurance forms for me). Is there a better way to say it or should I just drop it? None of these pictures and even the money are more important than R. I'd like to have the pics for friends and family. For the insurance, we've been exchanging about it for a while -- she brought me the paperwork last week.

Some context. Today, she said she formally applied to her former boss' job. I replied "You go girl!" (in English) to which she said "Just don't call me girl - it makes me feel weird". Anyone else cringed at "You go girl!"? It seemed like a plain idiom, an encouragement. I'm not even sure why she was offended, but I didn't ask. It's possible even she doesn't know.

Her response stung, because to me it suggests that she still doesn't care one bit about me, that she'll crack the whip on me at will. No good will at all for me.

Last edited by Mozza; 11/19/14 03:12 AM.

M39 D6 D3 (at S)
S 2014-09
D 2016-09

"You can't start a fire sitting around, crying over a broken heart" - Bruce Springsteen.
Mozza #2508596 11/19/14 03:20 AM
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Hey Mozza, the email sounds good to me. I'm curious as to where the insurance is coming from? Is it through her work?

No mind reading on the "you go girl" comment, she has likely already forgotten you should too.


Me 28 W 27
T 10 M 2
No kids (fertility issues - mine)
Bomb 7/20/2014 - EA Confirmed
W moved out 9/15/14
W dating OM 11/22/14
Hoju #2508600 11/19/14 03:24 AM
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Thanks Hoju. Yes, the insurance is through her job. The job I helped her get and at which she found her OM in 3 weeks...

Perhaps she has already forgotten. I doubt it though - so much tension, so little communication between us. Anyway, I'm not responding, but I'm curious to see what the offense could have been. I'm so careful in my communications, I hate it when I hit a nerve by mistake.

Any more opinions on the email and the line?


M39 D6 D3 (at S)
S 2014-09
D 2016-09

"You can't start a fire sitting around, crying over a broken heart" - Bruce Springsteen.
Mozza #2508636 11/19/14 09:32 AM
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Sounds like youre doing well on your list. Looking at the goals for the marriage I think looking for repeat success is good (consistent actions) maybe add only one small thing.


Both mid 30s, 2 young kids
BD 7sep14
XW moved on long ago, now living with OM1
D paperwork in progress
Mozza #2508638 11/19/14 09:45 AM
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Originally Posted By: Mozza
Mozza 1 - 2009 near-separation, search for explanations.
Mozza 2 - OM confirmed through kids on Halloween, refocus on me rather than blaming W.
Mozza 3 - OM confirmed by W in email, strollergate, W has problems at work, unexpected blind date.
Mozza 4 - Lunch with W went well, reflections on being dumped, kids and OM

My story
After 9.5 years together, my W announced in early September that she wanted a separation. A week of pleading and begging didn't change a thing.


Not to be sarcastic, but can you see why a sentence like that ^^^one, is almost funny, now? A "whole week"? Bet you're shaking your head now...

but the thing is, your time line really is a darn short one. I thought you'd been here for years but that's b/c I got confused when you said the problems she mentioned have been her complaints for "5 years". Anyhow, if you are into other people's situations you need to review their timelines as well.

I can't recall ANY reconciliation that took less than several (9?) months. Most took over a year. More than half involved OM/OWs.

Holly and her h reconciled after a few Years (but I THINK she & her h were sep AND divorced, for 6 years Not exactly like a recon that one person worked towards the whole time.

In my own family, I have 2 family members who later remarried their former spouses. As far as I know, neither of my family members expected to remarry their exes. They did not "wait" for the WAS to return. They went about their lives and assumed their marriages were over for good. They worked on themselves (maybe to get back on the market??) and after a few years, they reconnected and reconciled.

So yes it happens. But they all changed/imprved so they would be better at marriage. They brought more to the table, if you know what I mean.


She said I was criticizing her too much, that she was unhappy and no longer in love with me and she didn't want to live with half-emotions. A week later, she had moved out. A month and a half later, she revealed that she was going out with a coworker, met at the new job she started a month before BD (after a year of job-seeking). He's a good listener, 10 years younger than me, better-looking and athletic. He'd been courting her from week 1 and was present throughout her move. It didn't come as a surprise when she told me they were together. He left his gf to be with my W.

Just so I know, are you working on becoming a better, more active listener? And didn't you say you began an exercise program or you are getting in shape?

I'm not saying "go compete!", but I AM saying that women need their man to be someone they feel protected by. Being strong and in shape is part of that, and being a good listener is something everyone needs to have. So, these are not hard changes to make and they'd be good for you, IMO. Is it something you are okay with?

I'll write a bit more about that later.



My kids know and like him.

DBing
I accept responsibility for what I did in the M, though I don't always feel responsible for the S because the OM shouldn't have courted a married W with 2 kids and more importantly that she should have told me and resisted. In any case, the only useful path is to reflect on my changes. I need to be less critical and less dismissive of my W's emotions. She had voiced her pain several times before the BD and none of her reasons to leave me (she didn't mention OM) were new to me. I had ignored her and she was hopeless that things could improve. There was more fighting than average in the months leading to BD. She said we were incompatible.

I'm good at being silent and distant, so much that she once called me to ask why I was so hard to reach. The "no pursuing" rule is easy to apply for me because it means doing nothing.


This is why the "rules" are NOT rules. They are guidelines, guidelines that Sandi assembled one day, and others (including me) have sometimes tweaked. They are based on the DB principles and other teachings by Michele W-Davis...

I don't know why, but many people skip the sentence that says "these are guidelines only and some won't apply..."


I don't think there's anyone for whom ALL the "rules" would apply.

But for You to say "doing nothing is easy for me -- b/c that's 'not pursuing' ***

it is also more of the same old thing from you. It's exactly why YOU should Not apply the guideline of "no pursuit".

Smothering her is the Opposite of Your problem.

Besides Mozza, as a "rule" in life, when you are at a crossroads wondering what to do, chances are great that the choice requiring More effort is the Right answer....

b/c the easier answer, IF "right", would have been handled already. When you are really torn it's usually b/c the "Right choice" is the harder one.

in your case, doing nothing is Not so much a choice, as simply more inertia on your end. No offense, but isn't that part of how you got here? Might you be able to do better/more/different?


What I'm not so good is acting normal and upbeat around her and what I'm awful at is detaching.

I don't believe Detaching is possible without GAL (the type of GAL that I hope you'll enter, is the type of

GAL that occupies your mind while you are doing it, AND involves other people as well, b/c that is KEY.

GAL for a lot of reasons, but include Detachment as one of the reasons...and Detaching will Decrease the Obsessing and the anxieties and the critical stuff that flares up when we are Not detached.(And harms our relationships in the world).

Seriously, a BIG piece of why one should detach, is pure protection. It helps you heal and stabilize....so DO GAL and keep that up so you can detach and that will help you have your PMA and model healthy behaviors for your kids, etc.

Make sense?

Two months after she left, I can still feel like she left 10 minutes ago, disbelieving the whole thing is happening. My kids (D6, D3) take to the separation as if nothing happened.



First off, I didn't know how short your time line is. 2 months? Wow Mozz, you are too early to want to quit. This is a marathon, Not a sprint.


Pace yourself! Don't push for so much clarity this early on, or at least get Your Own clarity first, & situational clarity will only come with TIME....you'll fall apart if you don't become a lot more patient. A lot...

Most or even all of the effects of this sep will not be felt or experienced deeply, by the kids At This Time....but if it lasts or morphs into a divorce, the effects will come later. And you may not even know of them.

But don't take the kids adaptability personally. It may even hurt you b/c you'll think somehow it means you are not a big factor in their lives, if they are not falling apart. But that's misguided (and selfish, IF you went too far in that direction). Thing is, even if you were not a very involved dad, your kids will always love you, AND You can develop a closer relationship with them anyhow, by spending time with them.

It's not rocket science, which is a great thing about kids; they mostly just want us to be with them and be interested IN them. That takes time.

Again, don't take it personally if they seem adaptable or happy. In fact, remember to be grateful. If you really think about it, if the kids were screaming and acting out and showing intense pain in their behavior, would you really feel better? Maybe for a minute, but down deep, I know you want whatever happens, to be as painless for them as possible. But if/when your ego gets bruised, remember this...

If this "OM" is Not a moronic violent jerk or drug addict, much as we might hate conceding anything remotely good about OM, we have to remind our selves that a decent OP in our kids lives --- is infinitely better than a worthless dangerous one.


It's very premature to wonder about his future role OR theirs. Mozza, when I con template the time you have spent "catastrophizing" your future (going down the worst case scenario ad nauseum and often) and then I realize it's only been a few months (!!!)

I shake my head. Man, don't be your own worst enemy. Let this run its course WHILE You run your course, of self improvement, REPLACING the negatively programmed "I worry, therefore I am" approach of your "old self"

with a New positive optimistic 'happy that good things are around the corner' MAN....

Your new mantra will be on your phone greetings:
"I can't come to the phone right now b/c I'm busy going to fascinating places, doing fun new things, & meeting interesting new people. Leave a message!" cool

Make sense?

So don't fret about OM anymore (really, get the mental "stop sign" out and SEE it in your head and change the topic in your mind. Practice this and it will help you.

You cannot be replaced for your children, unless you "resign" from your position.

Kids NEED a Rock in their lives and they Know who their rock is...

they need a rock to land on for stability, return to for comfort or celebrations, a rock to hold onto in scary times of uncertainty, and a strong rock to spring away from at the right time, launching into their adulthood but having that rock all their lives...like a lighthouse as a guiding beacon in the dark times they'll face...

You're blessed to have the job of being their rock. Don't forget!

_________________________________________________

Success stories
Feel free to make suggestions, especially with links to threads. I wish we had room in our profile to tell our story so that the vets and other successes could give us a quick summary.

RECONCILIATION
Thornton (M) - May to July 2014
Train (W) - Reconciled in 2014
Labug (W) - March 2011 to December 2013
HopefulStill - reconciled in 2012
minkerman (M) - Reconciled after 4 months in 2008
25yearsmlc (W) - 2005 to August 2008
FaithfulH - Reconciled in 2007
sandi2 (W) - ?
MrBond (M) - Used to have another screen name
Starsky309 (M) - (ChocolateEyes, Puppy Dog Tails) - Aug 2007 to 2009 . Reconciled after dated another woman.
Butterflymom127 and FavoriteWeirdo - Thread

PIECING AS OF 2014
Crimson
T0324
Heart14
Nitty - BD in December 2013, piecing as of September 2014

LET GO
pearlharbr (W) - November 2008 to June 2010 (19 months)
Snow White (W) - 2008-2009 2008-2009. Let go when her H wanted back in.


M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
OW
DIV 2/26/2018
X marries OW 5/2016

= CLOSURE 4 ME
Embrace the Change
Mozza #2508641 11/19/14 10:21 AM
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Originally Posted By: Mozza
I need advice. I'd have to send an email to W. Usually, it would be pretty plain, but in such a sitch... I think it's self-explanatory. It's about school pics and insurance.

Quote:
Hi,

Thanks for the pic of D6. I thought I had ordered the full package, with the small and medium ones, but I might have made a mistake. Are there any left?

Also, for D3 I hadn't ordered any [she sent me tons] but I could keep a few. Do you want the rest?

For the insurance, there seems to be only 300$ available for IC. Have you used it already? [I think her sessions are covered elsewhere]

Instead of asking her something she could feel is none of your business, I suggest you just ask her if she'd mind you making the claim, and give her the receipts. In fact, maybe her use of IC is irrelevant (if they go by members), so instead of possibly being seen as prying, why not just ask if she'd let you get the claim if you bring her the receipt?


If not, would you mind putting in the claim if I bring you the receipt?



It seems to be a burdensome email full of requests and veiled criticism (you sent me the wrong pics! you'll have to deal with insurance forms for me). Is there a better way to say it or should I just drop it?


Well, yes this is a communication of a "TO DO" list that you're giving HER to do. It's not a huge "To Do" list, but I share your concern that it is one, nonetheless.

The insurance is important enough to clarify. You need to clarify it, but the way you asked her about HER IC or HER use of it, seemed weird. So drop that part but ask about the insurance/counseling sessions.

And the rest is not very important really, unless you truly need more pictures. How many more do you need? Must she actually mail them to you, b/c that'a hassle for photos. Pick your battles wisely, and don't have many battles OR REQUESTS b/c those will read as "hassles" to her.


None of these pictures and even the money are more important than R.


Great!! Problem solved....But oh, wait...Why is the NEXT sentence a reason for you to request the photos??

Either they're important enough to discuss OR not? One second You say a "normal healthy" thing, and the next sentence you seem to take it back, or backslide.

This is you "measuring" in a way. Like when you say you "own" a problem in the marriage and the next sentence you complain about your wife's flaws again, like you want to make sure we can "see" that she's more flawed than you OR you explain and defend the trait you just admitted is a flaw you are working on, only to praise yourself or it later.
And it reminded me of how you'll also say you are having success at being LESS critical...right after you cut her down again. Try to catch yourself doing it, and then it'll be easier to change. And when you replace the negative things you do NOT want to say or do, you will need to learn some new POSITIVE behaviors to replace the negatives one with...okay?

Wives sense the criticism in our h's words AND in their silence.

I'd like to have the pics for friends and family. For the insurance, we've been exchanging about it for a while -- she brought me the paperwork last week.

Some context. Today, she said she formally applied to her former boss' job. I replied "You go girl!" (in English) to which she said "Just don't call me girl - it makes me feel weird". Anyone else cringed at "You go girl!"? It seemed like a plain idiom, an encouragement. I'm not even sure why she was offended, but I didn't ask. It's possible even she doesn't know.

1) why say"cringed"? It didn't sound as if she cringed. She commented that it made her "Feel weird" probably b/c the term "girl" connotes something to her from her native tongue.

But 2) it's an idiom as YOU KNOW so, that' that.

She heard something else, b/c it's an idiom and thus carries different meaning for us than for her. I would not say she was "offended" based on her comment. And this is NOT something to spend time on. No biggie.

To me it does not sound as if She made a big deal out of it-- and even if she had, it is not a big deal. So YOU need to be clear on that and Don't make out as if it is. That just feeds the idea that you said something odd. You did not. Move on...


Her response stung,


she barely made a comment worth repeating, let alone spending this much mental energy on. No need to feel "Stung" by it. Really, let this go...



because to me it suggests that she still doesn't care one bit about me, that she'll crack the whip on me at will. No good will at all for me.


Mozza, really?

it "suggests...she STILL doesn't CARE ONE BIT" about you? SIGH cry

Here's a 2 x 4...LET IT GO. She said Nothing indicating that she does not care about you. This is just a huge over reaction on your part. I don't know if this is a trait of yours

or if you cannot see that the emotional state you are in again, colors your vision of the world. But the FACTS in the above scenario simple do NOT justify this type of reaction in you.

Get a grip. Don't spiral or sulk b/c you gave her a compliment and she didn't lap it up.

Just move on and speak in the language and way she is MOST LIKELY to respond to. Okay? Good....problem solved, let's move on now, shall we?

You can do this but you need to keep the big picture in mind AND the small stuff out of the way. Your world view has been tinted negatively and has colored things so much that it may well have been a factor in you guys getting here..

So change that trait, please.

No matter what SHE does or says or feels, you need to change your world view into a more positive one b/c YOU will be happier. Period.


Keep on keeping on


M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
OW
DIV 2/26/2018
X marries OW 5/2016

= CLOSURE 4 ME
Embrace the Change
25yearsmlc #2508646 11/19/14 11:18 AM
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Mozza

I am not going to quote the large quote again. It is the same as 25 is giving 2x4s about.

Your WAWs requests seem very businesslike and ordinary about practical issues. From my perspective as a girl, it seems that you are mind reading. This is sort of message that I could be sending to H, a practical, there is x y and z.

Stop it!
Do ordinary things in an ordinary way without creating internal drama. Mole hills and mountains ring true.

Stillness
Vanilla


Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose.
V 64, WAW


25yearsmlc #2508730 11/19/14 03:35 PM
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25yearsmlc - First, thank you so much for "adopting" me. I appreciate that you stop by and care enough about my sitch to spend some of your precious time helping me figuring it out.

I've decided to drop the pictures. Asking for them would be like saying "You're still so disorganized!" I take tons of them and these school pictures are not that good anyway. I'll have my own session with the kids. I'm still conflicted about not voicing any of my needs, be it just the kids pictures I ordered and she's not giving me, for fear of provoking any negative feeling in her.

Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc
And it reminded me of how you'll also say you are having success at being LESS critical...right after you cut her down again. Try to catch yourself doing it, and then it'll be easier to change. And when you replace the negative things you do NOT want to say or do, you will need to learn some new POSITIVE behaviors to replace the negatives one with...okay?
Are you saying I should not be critical of her at all on these boards either? And in my heart? Honest question. I find it interesting.

Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc
That just feeds the idea that you said something odd. You did not. Move on...
Thanks for this. Moving on.

Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc
Here's a 2 x 4...LET IT GO. She said Nothing indicating that she does not care about you. This is just a huge over reaction on your part. I don't know if this is a trait of yours
I never thought about it before, but perhaps overreacting is one of my traits. I did get upset quickly and could calm down much faster than her -- this was an issue because she'd been upset that I got angry and I'd be upset she wouldn't try to resolve the fight. It makes me controlling of the fights: I decide when they start and when they end. I'll note that down on my list of issues.


M39 D6 D3 (at S)
S 2014-09
D 2016-09

"You can't start a fire sitting around, crying over a broken heart" - Bruce Springsteen.
25yearsmlc #2508753 11/19/14 04:15 PM
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Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc
I can't recall ANY reconciliation that took less than several (9?) months. Most took over a year. More than half involved OM/OWs.
Thanks. I know I'm impatient. It wouldn't be good to be back together after only two months separated. I've a lot of work to do and I'm barely getting started. I feel a strong desire to change, I've figured out a lot of things, but I can't say that I feel like a new person, someone whom I trust would be different in the long run.

Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc
Just so I know, are you working on becoming a better, more active listener? And didn't you say you began an exercise program or you are getting in shape?
Yes, I'm exercising more and I can see the difference already. I've always been skinny, but now I'm slightly more fit (just one month into it). More importantly for me (and for her) is becoming a better listener. I'm learning to validate. I find it very instructive to have absolutely no choice but to listen and validate her. I can't grant myself any exception, so I really see its full impact. In a way, I'm happy we still have almost daily positive interactions, though she said she was hoping for that when she left, because of the kids.

Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc
But for You to say "doing nothing is easy for me -- b/c that's 'not pursuing' *** it is also more of the same old thing from you. It's exactly why YOU should Not apply the guideline of "no pursuit". Smothering her is the Opposite of Your problem.
THANK YOU! I'm glad you addressed this issue. I'm lost on this one. She just left me two months ago and she's with an OM. By all accounts, they seem to be very much in love. This suggests that I should clear out until things die out between them. In the meantime, I try to be a positive presence. I don't cause her trouble intentionally, I reply to her emails, be they about work or Kim Kardashian. I validate, I ask questions, I make her laugh. Should I go further and initiate communications? We had a good lunch 10 days ago, which she initiated. Should I extend the next invitation eventually?

Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc
First off, I didn't know how short your time line is. 2 months? Wow Mozz, you are too early to want to quit. This is a marathon, Not a sprint. Pace yourself! Don't push for so much clarity this early on, or at least get Your Own clarity first, & situational clarity will only come with TIME....[i]you'll fall apart if you don't become a lot more patient. A lot...
I'm not anywhere near quitting! Some people recommend taking one day at a time, but I admit that it gives me peace to think that this think will take months, a year, etc. It gives me space today, it puts any interaction in perspective. Still, I'm struggling to know what I'm supposed to be doing today vis-à-vis my W. For me, I know I need to GAL, work on my changes, etc. But in my interactions with her?

Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc
Thing is, even if you were not a very involved dad, your kids will always love you, AND You can develop a closer relationship with them anyhow, by spending time with them.
I'm a very involved dad. Always been doing my half, bathing, putting them to bed, and cooking half the time, etc. Also, we both traveled and left each other with the kids for a week or two at a time. It's in part why this all seems so natural to them. I've been taking care of them for years. The S has gotten us closer, especially D3 who's really cuddlier than she used to be with me. For that, I'm grateful.


M39 D6 D3 (at S)
S 2014-09
D 2016-09

"You can't start a fire sitting around, crying over a broken heart" - Bruce Springsteen.
Mozza #2508754 11/19/14 04:18 PM
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@25yearsmlc: By the way, I'm really curious of the differences you see between my WAW and that of MCS.

Thanks Vanilla. Yes, I need to decrease the drama.


M39 D6 D3 (at S)
S 2014-09
D 2016-09

"You can't start a fire sitting around, crying over a broken heart" - Bruce Springsteen.
Mozza #2508784 11/19/14 05:07 PM
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Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc
And it reminded me of how you'll also say you are having success at being LESS critical...right after you cut her down again. Try to catch yourself doing it, and then it'll be easier to change. And when you replace the negative things you do NOT want to say or do, you will need to learn some new POSITIVE behaviors to replace the negatives one with...okay?
Are you saying I should not be critical of her at all on these boards either? And in my heart? Honest question. I find it interesting.
[/quote]

Mozza the one thing I've learned from my short time on this earth is that an emotion will perpetuate more of the same emotion. Meaning if on these boards and in your heart you're critical of her actions it will be harder to fake it when game time comes. It's best to in all your walks of life think and act as if the person were listening. This goes for everything not just WAW, you need to truely forgive and understand and accept your WAW for who she is.


Me 28 W 27
T 10 M 2
No kids (fertility issues - mine)
Bomb 7/20/2014 - EA Confirmed
W moved out 9/15/14
W dating OM 11/22/14
Hoju #2508839 11/19/14 06:13 PM
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Please revisit Sandis guidelines. Let W initiate interactions and respond, if you don't know what to say you can delay or defer. "I need to think about it" or " can I check my diary, unsure if I have something booked"

Criticism embeds and leaks, try observation with compassion. " I'm disappointed you feel that way" . " you must tell me sometime how you reached that conclusion" .

You write about your loving and close relationship with your children, makes me smile and radiates from your posts.

Long haul winner

Vanilla

Last edited by Vanilla; 11/19/14 06:17 PM.

Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose.
V 64, WAW


Hoju #2508871 11/19/14 06:51 PM
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Originally Posted By: Hoju
Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc
And it reminded me of how you'll also say you are having success at being LESS critical...right after you cut her down again. Try to catch yourself doing it, and then it'll be easier to change. And when you replace the negative things you do NOT want to say or do, you will need to learn some new POSITIVE behaviors to replace the negatives one with...okay?


Are you saying I should not be critical of her at all on these boards either? And in my heart? Honest question. I find it interesting.


Mozza the one thing I've learned from my short time on this earth is that an emotion will perpetuate more of the same emotion. Meaning if on these boards and in your heart you're critical of her actions it will be harder to fake it when game time comes.


BINGO^^^^....

Why would you "need" to be critical of her HERE?

The claim and the idea that we come here to "just vent" rings hollow to me. USUALLY (not always but way more often than not) people who "vent" here, stay stuck in their victimhood and anger, LONGER.

If you don't feel a lot calmer after you supposedly "vented," then it's NOT helping you at all. It's making your wounds fester and rot.

Avoid seeing her so negatively b/c it comes across HERE and I'd bet it has in your own life a lot more than you realize. Your description of how you two fight makes me think you let off steam faster but for HER, there are wounds you are not even aware of. And it wears on her. (Do you BULLY her in arguments, Not letting the matter drop when she retreats or wants to switch topics? If so, that's a lot like bullying to me. You don't have to hit someone to bludgeon them with your opinion).

When my h says a snotty thing and then drops the issue and "makes up" later, but does not SAY something to un-do his earlier comment, it still hurts me long after HE thinks "it's over"....a lot of us are that way. Don't think an apology means the comment has been rescinded AND forgotten; it has not.

Usually it's still stinging and what I mean to say is, there are many things that cannot be "unsaid", so don't say them at all. MOST criticisms are that way.

You seem to think you "SHOULD" tell her the negative things you feel as if they have value to her. They do Not.


You need to let that sink in. Unless there is an important boundary for you, (which is not about HER so much as about you)

there's NO "need" to tell her your negative opinions of her. Ever.


Why would there ever be? It's not your job to help her become her best self, that's for her church or parents, and their job ended years ago too. Giving her negative feedback will never make her feel loved. THAT is the spouses job, (not the "Oh but I'm helping her not be so flawed, you know, b/c I just want her to be her best", which is a lie that critical spouses tell themselves to justify their harping and negative focus.

Since you do tend to see things as half empty, I urge extra caution for you in this area.

Work on YOU.


It's best to in all your walks of life think and act as if the person were listening. This goes for everything not just WAW, you need to truely forgive and understand and accept your WAW for who she is. [/quote]


Mozz, I say all this^^ but not with the idea that you are "Way behind" where you are supposed to be. I say these things so you don't backslide, which is tempting and happens here, way too often. First and something you MUST get, is that forgiving her, is for YOU more than anyone else. It means letting go of the pain you feel from her, and it means that no matter what happens between you two, the Affair is not the indicator for you of happiness or feeling good about yourself, etc. IT's NOT a barometer of your self worth. Let it go.


IF you two reconcile, THEN there will be other aspects that need addressing such as her regaining your trust AND you regaining hers, and transparency, etc. For now, that's not applicable.

I want you to know that Your insights sound authentic, and you seem to be bravely looking within. I believe the most important journey in life is an inward one.


If you continue on this path, I think You will become a man that only a fool would leave.

And that matters a lot.

Last edited by 25yearsmlc; 11/19/14 06:53 PM.

M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
OW
DIV 2/26/2018
X marries OW 5/2016

= CLOSURE 4 ME
Embrace the Change
25yearsmlc #2509000 11/19/14 10:32 PM
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Mozza, I know its a different relationship but the premise works I think so go with me on this.

Would you be critical of one of your Daughters in your heart? Would you vent? Frustrated maybe, looking for some changes in behaviour probably, but critical? I suspect not.

I keep getting the song stuck in my head but the message is clear, all the stuff that makes you want to criticise - 'let it go'

Actually (Just because I always hook into metaphors) and this is entirely off the cuff, think about the film frozen as a metaphor for your situation where you are Elsa and her magic is your influence on your relationship. act out of fear and try to control then you freeze the whole kingdom, but when you act out of love everyone can enjoy courtyard ice skating in summer. Love can thaw a frozen heart. (You have two young D's I don't believe for a second you haven't seen it)


Both mid 30s, 2 young kids
BD 7sep14
XW moved on long ago, now living with OM1
D paperwork in progress
25yearsmlc #2509126 11/20/14 04:42 AM
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Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc
Avoid seeing her so negatively b/c it comes across HERE and I'd bet it has in your own life a lot more than you realize.
OK, I will try. I see how it can work. It's not going to be easy. When I think of all my faults and flaws, there's always a huge "YES BUT..." in my head and then a list of hers. I also see that I must give a negative image of her to the people around me because no matter how I try to explain that I have my own issues, they always seem to blame her in the end. All their information on the sitch comes from me, so it must be my fault. In short, my story is that she fell in love with a handsome colleague 10 years my junior who was hitting on her. He took advantage of issues in our M. I have to learn to STFU.

Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc
(Do you BULLY her in arguments, Not letting the matter drop when she retreats or wants to switch topics? If so, that's a lot like bullying to me. You don't have to hit someone to bludgeon them with your opinion).
I'll have to think about it because it appears to be the opposite at first sight. As I said, I drop the matter faster and then I try to get her to calm down, to reconcile -- she acknowledges this. Come to think of it, that's just what's happening now. On a related note, my IC suggested that this separation might just be the continuation of our R: the same dynamics.

Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc
You seem to think you "SHOULD" tell her the negative things you feel as if they have value to her. They do Not. (...) Giving her negative feedback will never make her feel loved. THAT is the spouses job, (not the "Oh but I'm helping her not be so flawed, you know, b/c I just want her to be her best", which is a lie that critical spouses tell themselves to justify their harping and negative focus.)
You hit very close to home here. It's been a big part of our R since the beginning. She was very damaged when I met her (suicide attempts among other things) and she rebuilt through our R, became a confident woman, a mom of two with a good career. I'm 5 years older and more mature, so that often gave me an advantage in assessing situations and solutions. That's how I became the "adult" in the couple, not necessarily because I liked it. But by the time she was 33, she was her own adult and there was no need for me to take charge of the final say as much as I did. As much as I wanted her success, it was always with my support. She needed to succeed by herself -- she'll probably need that to ever g out with me again confidently.

In any case, she's of the same opinion as you: she left saying she doesn't want to be under my influence anymore, even the positive one. It struck me as odd at the time, but you're shining a new light on this. Thank you.

Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc
I want you to know that Your insights sound authentic, and you seem to be bravely looking within. I believe the most important journey in life is an inward one. If you continue on this path, I think You will become a man that only a fool would leave. And that matters a lot.
THANK YOU! I much appreciate the positive encouragement. This is the worst time of my life, it forces me to doubt myself a lot when I'm already at my weakest. A little pick-me-up is very helpful every now and then. I'm glad to hear that you believe in me.


M39 D6 D3 (at S)
S 2014-09
D 2016-09

"You can't start a fire sitting around, crying over a broken heart" - Bruce Springsteen.
jim0987 #2509127 11/20/14 04:46 AM
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Originally Posted By: jim0987
Would you be critical of one of your Daughters in your heart? Would you vent? Frustrated maybe, looking for some changes in behaviour probably, but critical? I suspect not.
I'll disappoint you and myself, but yes, I'm critical of my kids, especially D6 (and a half) because I have higher expectations. In fact, I use them as a barometer of my changes. Am I a better father to them? Do I exhibit the behaviors that I promise not to show in an R anymore? For me it's more realistic to think of how I would treat a girl I'm dating. It seems to suggest naturally how I should treat my W.

Originally Posted By: jim0987
(You have two young D's I don't believe for a second you haven't seen it)
Then let me surprise you: I've never seen it! We rarely turn on the TV at home, even less since the S (I've lost interest). I know the song from D6 though. I think she's seen it at school.


M39 D6 D3 (at S)
S 2014-09
D 2016-09

"You can't start a fire sitting around, crying over a broken heart" - Bruce Springsteen.
Mozza #2509179 11/20/14 02:42 PM
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Mozza,

25 has given you tremendous good feedback!

Here are a few that I'd like to chime in as well.

Originally Posted By: Mozza

Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc
You seem to think you "SHOULD" tell her the negative things you feel as if they have value to her. They do Not. (...) Giving her negative feedback will never make her feel loved. THAT is the spouses job, (not the "Oh but I'm helping her not be so flawed, you know, b/c I just want her to be her best", which is a lie that critical spouses tell themselves to justify their harping and negative focus.)
You hit very close to home here. It's been a big part of our R since the beginning. She was very damaged when I met her (suicide attempts among other things) and she rebuilt through our R, became a confident woman, a mom of two with a good career. I'm 5 years older and more mature, so that often gave me an advantage in assessing situations and solutions. That's how I became the "adult" in the couple, not necessarily because I liked it. But by the time she was 33, she was her own adult and there was no need for me to take charge of the final say as much as I did. As much as I wanted her success, it was always with my support. She needed to succeed by herself -- she'll probably need that to ever g out with me again confidently.


^^ Oh Boy! That was the most patronizing post I've ever seen anyone post about their spouse. Really? Is that how you viewed your W? It came across as in you being the superior one and W just can't cut it without your "guidance." That is not partnership in the equal give-take sense. Being 5 years older doesn't automatically assign one as being the more mature of the other person.

I am wondering if that was the R dynamic between the two of you throughout the M. Is that true? If so, then I'd do more internal work on shedding that type of dynamic by working on your attitudes. More on this later.

Originally Posted By: Mozza

Originally Posted By: jim0987
Would you be critical of one of your Daughters in your heart? Would you vent? Frustrated maybe, looking for some changes in behaviour probably, but critical? I suspect not.
I'll disappoint you and myself, but yes, I'm critical of my kids, especially D6 (and a half) because I have higher expectations. In fact, I use them as a barometer of my changes. Am I a better father to them? Do I exhibit the behaviors that I promise not to show in an R anymore? For me it's more realistic to think of how I would treat a girl I'm dating. It seems to suggest naturally how I should treat my W.


Geee whiz. It sounds like you really do not or might not love your children unconditionally because you have those "high expectations" that may end up in disappointment and/or resentment. Good gosh, if they don't measure up to your expectations, then the unspoken message is that they are not worthy of your love. Drop this attitude. Accept them for who they are...not WHAT they are. They will do things at their own pace.

Support. Encouragement.

STFU on criticisms. Sure, I think constructive feedback is more welcome than flat-out harsh criticisms no matter how small or large they may be.

Look inward. Try to be more self-aware of those tendencies.

Wonka #2509278 11/20/14 06:50 PM
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I just heard an old Dale Carnegie speech on the radio while driving. It was so obviously true, so innately clear to me, that I forgot that some people do not know this. What He said has been empirically verified literally hundreds of times...and it's this:

People learn faster and change their behaviors FAR more effectively with POSITIVE feedback, than with negative.


So, even if you were appointed by God to "improve" the people you're supposed to love, you'd be wrong to do it your way.

As Wonka said, "Stfu with the criticisms" and when you feel the need to correct someone to "improve" them, with your uber "high expectations" (another cliched euphemism for being critical, imo), look in the mirror and work on yourself some more.

You know the old bible quote about the plank in your eye and the speck in theirs??

Mozza, Don't backslide on this b/c it will set you back a lot. I swear your kids will NOT BENEFIT by your criticism! They'll be damaged.

If you learn nothing else here today, please remember that we said this^^.

Also, the phrase "constructive criticism" seems like a contradiction in terms to me b/c criticizing people is rarely, IF ever constructive. IT's destructive. The only exception I can think of is when someone ASKS you for "Constructive feedback"...and even then you better phrase it positively.


I think you might really benefit from reading some Dale Carnegie books on "How to Win Friends & Influence People" b/c he goes into detail about this. And there is SO much research validating his thesis, and I know I benefit from reviewing it every few years...

There is just no excuse for you to keep this up b/c it's so unhealthy and so unhelpful and your own stated goals are NOT achieved with it.

So MAYBE the reality is that you just like feeling superior, and that might be the source of the critical nature you have been using. (Possibly??)

Change it. You're in charge of what comes out of your mouth. Change it asap.
Seriously.

You'll be glad you did, and so will your family.


M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
OW
DIV 2/26/2018
X marries OW 5/2016

= CLOSURE 4 ME
Embrace the Change
25yearsmlc #2509513 11/21/14 07:50 AM
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Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc


So, even if you were appointed by God to "improve" the people you're supposed to love, you'd be wrong to do it your way.

You know the old bible quote about the plank in your eye and the speck in theirs??

[/i]



A change in attitude and reading alone won't do this for you Mozza but it is a starting point. Changes in attitude aren't strong enough to provoke and help change endure. You need specific goals and to take action daily. It is what is on the inside that is important, this is an enormous opportunity for you to grow and develop as a father and as a man.

Achievement of material goals matters very little to the higher power within you as it wants you to achieve the growth on the inside.

At the end of your life what will matter most to you?
What your children have achieved or how personally successful they are as people. The external or the internal?
That they have a father who was brave enough to make the changes and encourage them as individuals or that they had a father who saw them as extensions of himself?

These are rhetorical questions.

Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc


As Wonka said, "Stfu with the criticisms" and when you feel the need to correct someone to "improve" them, with your uber "high expectations" (another cliched euphemism for being critical, imo), look in the mirror and work on yourself some more.

Mozza, Don't backslide on this b/c it will set you back a lot. I swear your kids will NOT BENEFIT by your criticism! They'll be damaged.

If you learn nothing else here today, please remember that we said this^^.


Mozza you speak so lovingly about your children in your posts and in the longer run that will get you through this process to being the best dad. I am not lucky enough to have children of my own but I have fostered with my first husband. We fostered teenagers mainly and the most damage I saw was because parents were controlling their kids through higher expectations.

You can channel love to your children rather than criticism. Replace one with the other, eliminating alone is not enough. Start this very moment, when you feel the need to criticize, pause, detach, feel the love and project as if acting as a prism. Say nothing, you will smile, your posture changes and love will flow.

Know your children's love language and give as they need to be given to.

Replace criticism with love.


Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc

There is just no excuse for you to keep this up b/c it's so unhealthy and so unhelpful and your own stated goals are NOT achieved with it.

So MAYBE the reality is that you just like feeling superior, and that might be the source of the critical nature you have been using. (Possibly??)


Usually we are at our worst when we are feeling inferior not superior. We use criticism to bolster ourselves, to make us higher than others. To uplift ourselves and to make us feel better. I wished that I had truly understood this earlier in my life as it would have made me stronger. In the end the strongest critics of ourselves we have are the voices inside us, those voices can assist our change, listen to them when your shadow critic feels mean and ask if it is yourself you are truly judging.

Working on ourselves is all we can ever really do to improve our interactions with others. Love Mozza and that will leak.




Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc
look in the mirror and work on yourself some more.

You'll be glad you did, and so will your family.


Apologise to your children. Simply and nicely with words your children can understand and make amends by changing yourself.

You can not change the past, its gone, when I first became aware of the damage I was doing to the people around me then I apologised and beat myself. I felt ashamed of my past behaviour.

My IC told me to say to myself: " Change has come, I used to be critical but now I am not like that any more. I have chosen to say nothing when I have nothing positive to say and I will encourage when I can."

I wished I had also added replace by love too.

I have been there and here is a much better place.

Vanilla


Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose.
V 64, WAW


Vanilla #2509745 11/21/14 09:04 PM
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This is why I love coming to the forums and miss it when I don't make it here as often. No matter whose sitch it is, there are always things that can be learned and applied to anyone here. Thank you, as always, for your insights and advice, 25.


M:35 W:31
S: 9 D: 5
M: 11.5 yrs
BD: 5/13
W moved out: 7/13
topgunmb #2510155 11/23/14 03:06 PM
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W's birthday today. Mine was a month ago and she sent me an email. I want to use that opportunity and she'd be shocked if I didn't send her my wishes. Also, 25yearsmlc made me realize that I shouldn't stick to closely to the "limited contact" guideline given that I was too distant in the R itself. One thing to consider though, is that my W is in a R with an OM for about 2 months. He spends every day at her apartment and calls her "my queen". So she's probably in love right now.

Her message was kind of sweet: asking me if I had plans, if I was taking the day off, hoping I'd have a good day and that the weather would get better. She even closed with "kisses". At the time, it hurt me because it was so distant compared to what it was in the R that dissolved just a month prior.

I'm really struggling to find the right message, tone, length, words. Let me work on it and report. Suggestions welcome.


M39 D6 D3 (at S)
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D 2016-09

"You can't start a fire sitting around, crying over a broken heart" - Bruce Springsteen.
Mozza #2510164 11/23/14 03:34 PM
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Another thing: She was upset we couldn't switch week-ends with the kids so that she'd be free this week-end. It makes it delicate to mention the kids.

I don't want to ask for her plans: I don't want to pry and I don't want to risk hearing about the OM (though she's carefully avoided mentioning him, except for the announcement).

A few options.

Impersonal
Happy birthday! Hope you're having an entire week-end of celebrations. [And then I really don't know what to add!]

Supportive
Happy birthday. I hope you're having a good day and a good year, really. I'm happy to see you take steps to be happier in your life. That's what I wish for you and hope to be able to contribute.

This one's really hard to write because it implies: I agree that you had to leave me and I'm glad you're with an OM that makes you happy. As much as I want to DB, it's beyond what I feel, even though I genuinely want her to be happy (with an improved me...). Also, it sounds like I've moved on, I've no interest in getting back with her. Knowing her, she probably doubts that already (she doubted it the DAY I stopped crying and pleading...).

I really really don't know what to write. Time to shine? It doesn't matter because of OM anyway? We're too early in the sitch? She's gone for good? It will be misinterpreted?

And for those tempted to suggest: "Write what YOU want to write", it goes along the line of: please come back, I'm sorry for everything, I've changed, we'll have a great year together, this OM is not for you... ;-)


M39 D6 D3 (at S)
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D 2016-09

"You can't start a fire sitting around, crying over a broken heart" - Bruce Springsteen.
Mozza #2510165 11/23/14 03:35 PM
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How about just "Happy Birthday!" and leave it at that? It gets the sentiment across but has the added value of being a 180 from what you'd normally do. She can wonder why you were so succinct and mysterious. wink


ME: 38
BF: 40
T: 10y, no kids, no M (by choice)
BD: 7/14/14, BF admits to PA, wants out, lies about new R.
10/1/14: I move out, BF lies about move in with OW
12/4/14: OW confronted, reveals all the lies
Little #2510181 11/23/14 04:57 PM
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Love this Little

Could add Happy Bithday, I wish you all the best things on the day and for the whole of the year coming

This leaves 'I am the best thing' unsaid.

Or similar words am sure this can be improved on.

Implying I am still the best.
Vanilla


Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose.
V 64, WAW


Vanilla #2510185 11/23/14 05:14 PM
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Thanks both!

Just "Happy birthday" would be inflammatory. She already complained that I'm curt and avoiding with her, which only reinforces connected behaviors she disliked in the relationship. Also, she sent me a longer message on my birthday, a sign of what she expects.

In the end, I sent her the supportive message. Let's see where that leads.

Last edited by Mozza; 11/23/14 05:14 PM.

M39 D6 D3 (at S)
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"You can't start a fire sitting around, crying over a broken heart" - Bruce Springsteen.
Mozza #2510191 11/23/14 05:33 PM
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Mozza -- I can't imagine wishing my H a happy birthday while he's off with some other woman. That's because I don't actually wish him a "happy" birthday, so I would feel dishonest saying it. Maybe my H will be disappointed and think poorly of me for not acknowledging his birthday, but guess what? I think poorly of him for cheating and lying and leaving and destroying my family. So I think we can call it even somewhat. I don't think that giving my H attention and Xmas gifts and tokens of love are appropriate while he's off with someone else. I know these things would make no difference in his decision-making. Nothing that I say or do will really make a difference. It's entirely up to him. The same is true of your W. If she is upset with you, so be it -- she's just trying to make you feel bad (deflecting her guilt) when SHE'S the one seeing someone else. That is messed up, friend.

Last edited by Ahoy; 11/23/14 05:34 PM.

M: 43 H: 39
D: 14
Married 15 Together 16
BD: 6/2014
S: 8/2014
OW revealed 10/2014
Instigated dissolution 12/2014, in progress
So over it!
Mozza #2510193 11/23/14 06:08 PM
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Good for you!

Something you are comfortable with and feels appropriate to say.

Peace
Vanilla


Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose.
V 64, WAW


Vanilla #2510195 11/23/14 06:21 PM
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She replied and said it was a very kind message and gave me the most extensive update of her plans for the day. I call that a success!

Ahoy: I'm not happy about OM but I do what works, not what I feel like. Eyes on the prize. And my goal right now if to be a positive presence in my W's life.


M39 D6 D3 (at S)
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Mozza #2510196 11/23/14 06:25 PM
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Result!

Vanilla


Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose.
V 64, WAW


Vanilla #2510222 11/23/14 09:28 PM
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I need advice.

What kind of contact should my friends and family have with my WAW?

When she left, she reached out to my parents, my best friend and my cousin saying that she'd like to stay in touch. A few weeks later, she expressed dismay and anger that none one had contacted her since the S (well, duh). Since then, my best friend has suggested that perhaps if he and a few others were more in touch with her, she might feel less rejected, more welcome back the day that she'd consider reconciling. She wouldn't be scared that she's a pariah in my circles.

What do you think? Friends and family stay shut or reach out to her every now and then?


M39 D6 D3 (at S)
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"You can't start a fire sitting around, crying over a broken heart" - Bruce Springsteen.
Mozza #2510225 11/23/14 09:37 PM
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If their reason to reach out to her is to help your relationship with her, they really shouldn't interfere. (I wouldn't put it in those words in telling them.). Otherwise, whatever friendship/relationship they have with her should be their own choice or business, shouldn't it? In other words, you should not be telling them what they need to do. Let them make their own decisions and leave you out of it.

If I were in her shoes, I would only want them to be my friends if they liked me for myself.......not to help me, and not based on who I was married to.




It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Mozza #2510233 11/23/14 10:20 PM
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Mozza,

I want to comment on the HBD message:

Originally Posted By: Mozza
Supportive
Happy birthday. I hope you're having a good day and a good year, really. I'm happy to see you take steps to be happier in your life. That's what I wish for you and hope to be able to contribute.


I was like..."wha...wha...WHAT?!" You essentially gave her your approval to seek happiness through OM. That was a blockhead comment. That was the message you sent out. IT is all right there. There's a way to send out a positive message without falling over yourself over it.

Remember...short and simple?

She replied and said it was a very kind message and gave me the most extensive update of her plans for the day. I call that a success!


She was being polite and extended some courtesy to you. Really. I wish you had left out this line: I'm happy to see you take steps to be happier in your life. That was a doozy to me. If you left this line out, then your HBD message would have been perfect.

Do you now see why I am shaking my head over that particular line, Mozza?

I'm with Sandi totally about family and friends.

Wonka #2510238 11/23/14 10:25 PM
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Wonka - So you're telling me that my W was awaiting my approval to be happy with OM? What difference does my message make?


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"You can't start a fire sitting around, crying over a broken heart" - Bruce Springsteen.
Mozza #2510240 11/23/14 10:28 PM
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No. What I was saying is that you pretty much gave W your "tacit" approval to pursue her "own happiness"---take out the translator: OM. You both know about the OM. It seemed to me that you just gave in on the OM and told her to seek her own happiness.

Your message and how you word it DOES MAKE a difference! The use of words and language has a powerful impact. Pay attention to how you put words together.

Wonka #2510245 11/23/14 10:36 PM
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Thanks for the clarification. That's exactly what I said and I'm very happy with my message.

I told my W that her happiness is my priority and, yes, she needs to know that it is more important to me than her being unhappy with me. That I will never suggest to her that she should come back with me if it means being unhappy. That I don't stand in the way of her happiness. And I don't know about my "approval" of her OM : it's done and I accept it -- who's asking for my approval? Did I have an approval right I didn't know about?


M39 D6 D3 (at S)
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"You can't start a fire sitting around, crying over a broken heart" - Bruce Springsteen.
Mozza #2510267 11/24/14 12:12 AM
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Mozza

Your wife knows how you feel about her A?
From a female perspective (random sample of one) I didn't read into the message you condoned OM and the A. If another female view please say.

But I wouldn't think her messages back were more than information. But they were pleasant interactions which is ordinary stuff. Ordinary and civil seems good to me. It seems from your description You did the happy b thing without sloppy cards and cutesy presents and emoting.

Easy
Vanilla


Last edited by Vanilla; 11/24/14 12:18 AM.

Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose.
V 64, WAW


Vanilla #2510290 11/24/14 01:09 AM
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Thanks Vanilla. I'm also happy with the interaction. The only direct mention of the OM I've made is in reply to her email announcement. I wrote: "Thanks for telling me". Other than that, I've never mentioned him.

I told her twice that we have to go through this (the S) for our own sake, that we'll see if we meet on the other side -- last time I said so was almost two months ago, when we first met after she left. It means I've no control over her, that we both have work to do, things to live and that we don't know what the outcome will be.

She also knows I didn't want the S, although she's prone to forget it. I don't mind that too much at the moment, because she's infatuated with the OM, so I don't want to pursue. She sends me signals that it's over for good, like announcing the OM (though she knew the kids would babble) or talking about "the next 15 years" co-parenting while separated. I just ignore it, thinking it's the fog speaking. This being said, we never talk about D.

One other thing I might clarify: Where we live and in our minds, my W is not having an A at the moment. She left me, then she got together with this OM. It's not even an OM, by our standards: it's her new BF and I'm her XH. The only time D was brushed upon, she talked it about it like it was just paperwork. We got married in court, at short notice, and to an extent to get some papers in place. Nevertheless, we held hands, exchanged rings and vows with tears in our eyes, had a few friends with us, took pictures and went for dinner. We celebrated our anniversary every year. So it's important, but maybe not like some people who are more religious or made a bigger deal of their wedding. For my W, her wedding ring was always just one ring among many (how fitting now!).

I'm clarifying this because there seems to be a view that I have some moral high ground, that she's currently cheating on me, her H. I do believe that she had an EA with this OM before she left me, but based on it, she quickly ended our R and went with him. She did it as cleanly as possible. We're no longer together so, even if we're still married on paper, to her we're simply separated for good and free to do our own things.


M39 D6 D3 (at S)
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D 2016-09

"You can't start a fire sitting around, crying over a broken heart" - Bruce Springsteen.
Mozza #2510299 11/24/14 01:35 AM
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Mozza

She is your W, S or not it's an A. A big No No A . Whether it was EA or PA before she was a WAW it was an A. It still is an A.

You are working on your M. Standing, good for you. Until you are ready to D, then this Is your M and she is your W.

You are allowed to work on you in DB even beyond A, S or D.

The vets are here for you and the rest of us give each other moral support.

Vanilla thinks you are more detached and less frantic than when she first read your thread. calmer and more circumspect. The early Mozza would not have evaluated his text , he would have just reacted. I see more space and more thought. Not going to be 100% as we learn, we grow. Wonka has a wonderful way with words and is very giving and writes so beautifully himself so his wording to be respected. But from one newbie to another you seem more detached.

Getting there in peace
Vanilla


Last edited by Vanilla; 11/24/14 01:39 AM.

Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose.
V 64, WAW


Vanilla #2510305 11/24/14 01:39 AM
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Mozza,

Originally Posted By: Mozza
One other thing I might clarify: Where we live and in our minds, my W is not having an A at the moment. She left me, then she got together with this OM. It's not even an OM, by our standards: it's her new BF and I'm her XH. The only time D was brushed upon, she talked it about it like it was just paperwork. We got married in court, at short notice, and to an extent to get some papers in place. Nevertheless, we held hands, exchanged rings and vows with tears in our eyes, had a few friends with us, took pictures and went for dinner. We celebrated our anniversary every year. So it's important, but maybe not like some people who are more religious or made a bigger deal of their wedding. For my W, her wedding ring was always just one ring among many (how fitting now!).

I'm clarifying this because there seems to be a view that I have some moral high ground, that she's currently cheating on me, her H. I do believe that she had an EA with this OM before she left me, but based on it, she quickly ended our R and went with him. She did it as cleanly as possible. We're no longer together so, even if we're still married on paper, to her we're simply separated for good and free to do our own things.


This is, by far, the craziest rationalization I've ever heard from a LBH!! OMG!!! This is mad, mad!

Really.

Contortion Word Olympics aside, I have news flash for you: This is an affair. Period.

Oh goodness. My curiosity is piqued big time:

I do believe that she had an EA with this OM before she left me, but based on it, she quickly ended our R and went with him. She did it as cleanly as possible.

Does that^^ make it okay for you, Mozza???!! You even mentioned "EA" which suggests affair.





Last edited by Wonka; 11/24/14 01:43 AM.
Wonka #2510307 11/24/14 01:45 AM
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Oh...I wanted to get back to you, Vanilla.

This Wonka is very much a FEMALE. grin grin 'See ya later, darling.' swishing my pink feather boa

Wonka #2510311 11/24/14 01:49 AM
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Sorry Wonka

Looked at your job description and read random posts sick

Just think of you as a vet!

Last edited by Vanilla; 11/24/14 01:51 AM.

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Vanilla #2510314 11/24/14 01:51 AM
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No worries. I get this a lot. We're cool, Vanilla. cool

Wonka #2510318 11/24/14 01:56 AM
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Wonka... I'm really not sure how to tell you this. Your words are hurtful. The way you express your opinion is hurting me. I've said so before and now I repeat it. I hope you'll hear me. I don't doubt your intentions, but I encourage you to review the way in which you provide, you phrase your advice. There are vulnerable people on the receiving end, people dealing very seriously with the biggest challenge of their lives, just as they're at their weakest. There will be differences of opinion and we'll have to learn to respectfully exchange and, sometimes, disagree. Again, remember the words of MWD: the best way to influence someone is to reinforce positive behavior. Negative feedback is not effective. I've learnt that the hard way.


M39 D6 D3 (at S)
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"You can't start a fire sitting around, crying over a broken heart" - Bruce Springsteen.
Mozza #2510324 11/24/14 02:04 AM
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Mozza,

Hurtful? Not my intention.

I am wondering what is it that you are feeling "hurt" by up there? Hurt that I don't agree with your view point and call it out as I see it. I still stand by my stance that your rationalization is questionable at best.

Just don't get how you are saying that your W isn't having an affair because she "made a clean break" when the facts are that you two are still married and she brought a third party in the marriage. And you seem perfectly content with that thought process.

Originally Posted By: Mozza
One other thing I might clarify: Where we live and in our minds, my W is not having an A at the moment. She left me, then she got together with this OM. It's not even an OM, by our standards: it's her new BF and I'm her XH.


If you're okay with that, then maybe we should step back and let you live your life in an open marriage and stop wasting our time here. You can't have it both ways.

The purpose of this site is to save marriages.

Mozza #2510326 11/24/14 02:12 AM
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Mozza

I think I need you to understand, hard though it is that an EA or PA in M is an affair. You are permitted to have some distress, it's horrid, hurtful and thoroughly wayward behaviour.

And it will hurt to hear that. It will hurt very much, it's truly out of order.

Taking the moral high ground could be detrimental and get in the way of your detachment. Facing our own role in the break up of our M is important so we can not get in our own way to piecing and beyond.

Rationalising OM as bf however swift the switch may help in the short term but is unlikely to get you where you want to go.

Wonka is helping you get where you need to go and I believe coming from a good place. She asks a valid question of you.

Best for you
Vanilla


Last edited by Vanilla; 11/24/14 02:19 AM.

Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose.
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Wonka #2510330 11/24/14 02:20 AM
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Thanks for your response. As I wrote, I'm sure your intentions are good. Also, I don't mind the differences of opinion, otherwise I wouldn't be here or speaking to anybody, content that I'd be with my own opinion.

I wrote "The way you express your opinion is hurting me." The content is not hurtful. You've asked for examples. I won't repeat the one from about a week ago where you suggested that my W thought I was a loser and thank g*d she had OM. This is very hurtful and can be conveyed much more gently. If I don't agree with you, it is no reason to resort to such lengths. Examples from today.

Originally Posted By: Wonka
This is, by far, the craziest rationalization I've ever heard from a LBH!! OMG!!! This is mad, mad!
There is no need to resort to superlatives, to paint my explanation as an extreme never ever seen. To make me feel like I've lost my mind. You disagree and I welcome your views, except I can't hear them after I've read that. I'm hurt and I back off.

Originally Posted By: Wonka
That was a blockhead comment.
Again, this language is not conducive to civilized exchanges of views. Blockhead means stupid person (Merriam-Webster). I'm hurt when I'm called a stupid person, not to mention that you made your comment after I had already sent my email and gotten a response, too late for any change.

I come here to reflect on my sitch, to share opinions and ask for advice on certain actions, to further my reflections about what I need to change, etc. I also attempt to contribute to others' threads. Almost everyone manages to do this respectfully and we learn a great deal from each other. I'll leave you with your own wise words:

Originally Posted By: Wonka
The use of words and language has a powerful impact. Pay attention to how you put words together.


M39 D6 D3 (at S)
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"You can't start a fire sitting around, crying over a broken heart" - Bruce Springsteen.
Mozza #2510334 11/24/14 02:29 AM
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Mozza

Please look at the underlying message Wonka is saying to you and don't get lost in the delivery.

Messages are delivered in different ways, and there are lessons to be learned from all types of delivery. We are on the site to learn and Wonka teaches.

Please listen to her

Vanilla


Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose.
V 64, WAW


Vanilla #2510335 11/24/14 02:32 AM
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As for the topic itself, I'm thankful for your views, Vanilla and Wonka. I see where you're coming from. I'm here to save my R and you can call it a M. My feelings and my actions are the same. Some people here are already divorced and continue to fight. The absence of a M doesn't diminish their fight.

The reason why I brought it up is to explain the context in which my W is living now and perhaps how I approach it. I'm not pleased that she has an OM by any stretch of the imagination. In fact, I have nightmares about it, bouts of jealousy and it makes me cry several times a day. So please, don't suggest otherwise anymore. I recognize however that I've no power over it, nor an approval right. I also clarified that I want my W to know that I want her happiness above all. That's what I want her to know, to remember when she's out of the fog. I'm betting that I can be the best husband for her and that she will realize that by thinking back more clearly about our R and by seeing the man that I'm becoming.


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Mozza #2510336 11/24/14 02:33 AM
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Mozza,

I say this with utmost sincerity and in the gentlest way possible.

I believe I've achieved one of my goals here in your thread.

Do you now see, my friend?

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Mozza,

When people use rationalizations, it is for the two main reasons:

-deflecting responsibility for one's behavior

-protecting themselves from perceived hurt/reality

The first category tends to be people like the 13-year old boy who didn't finish his homework like he was supposed to do or abusers who claim that their wives made them that way.

The second category tends to be people who are in situations that are very painful for them. It is a self-protection mechanism.

Dig deeper and ask yourself why you would want to "rationalize" your W's OM as a new boyfriend and you as just a XH. Why is that, Mozza? What are you gaining by that type of thought process? Which part of the small child in you are you protecting? What old wounds are being brought to the surface?

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Proud of you with this

Mozza keep on going this is a turning point


Vanilla

Last edited by Vanilla; 11/24/14 02:39 AM.

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Vanilla #2510340 11/24/14 02:39 AM
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Originally Posted By: Vanilla
Please look at the underlying message Wonka is saying to you and don't get lost in the delivery.
I'll have to disagree with that. It's one thing that is stressed repeatedly around here, and Wonka did it no later than tonight. Delivery matters immensely. When helping others to change, one has to be kind. Above all, be kind. It's not just for WAS, it's equally good for LBS. We come here at a very vulnerable time. We're going to hear tough assessments of who we are, how we act and how we got here. I, like many others, am ready to hear it. There are ways however that are more effective and less distressing.


M39 D6 D3 (at S)
S 2014-09
D 2016-09

"You can't start a fire sitting around, crying over a broken heart" - Bruce Springsteen.
Mozza #2510342 11/24/14 02:43 AM
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I can see why you disagree, that is my view! Let you and I agree to disagree

Wonks is concentrating on you and helping you

It is very valuable

Vanilla



Last edited by Vanilla; 11/24/14 02:45 AM.

Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose.
V 64, WAW


Wonka #2510343 11/24/14 02:47 AM
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Originally Posted By: Wonka
I believe I've achieved one of my goals here in your thread.

Do you now see, my friend?
That being mean and critical and persistent is not helpful, even with the best intentions?

As for my M, we'll have to acknowledge that we live in different cultural contexts, with different mindsets about M. I'm sure around you and in your heart, the M certificate means a lot. Where I am, which is not in the USA, a majority of babies are born out of wedlock, not because they are born to single moms but because couples don't bother to get married anymore -- they just commit. Separation rates are no higher than elsewhere. I'm certainly not avoiding the hurt of losing my W and seeing her with an OM. I face it several times a day and it is crippling. If I had never signed the M papers, my hurt and my actions would be the same.


M39 D6 D3 (at S)
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D 2016-09

"You can't start a fire sitting around, crying over a broken heart" - Bruce Springsteen.
Mozza #2510347 11/24/14 02:51 AM
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Originally Posted By: Mozza
Originally Posted By: Vanilla
Please look at the underlying message Wonka is saying to you and don't get lost in the delivery.
I'll have to disagree with that. It's one thing that is stressed repeatedly around here, and Wonka did it no later than tonight. Delivery matters immensely. When helping others to change, one has to be kind. Above all, be kind. It's not just for WAS, it's equally good for LBS. We come here at a very vulnerable time. We're going to hear tough assessments of who we are, how we act and how we got here. I, like many others, am ready to hear it. There are ways however that are more effective and less distressing.


The bolded section is for you to mull over as you reflect on your past interactions with your daughters and wife.

Originally Posted By: Mozza
Originally Posted By: Wonka

I believe I've achieved one of my goals here in your thread.

Do you now see, my friend?

That being mean and critical and persistent is not helpful, even with the best intentions?



I pushed all of your buttons with criticisms because I felt that you really didn't get it and were hard-headed at times. I think you truly get it now. That yucky feeling you're experiencing at this moment is exactly what your daughters and wife felt with your constant criticisms. Imagine for a moment how your daughters and wife felt with you. Rigid. Inflexible.

Sometimes the vets here do really see things deeply & quite clearly and take on certain approaches to get the point across. You may not agree with my approach or methods. That is okay with me. The best teachers are those who push hard and make you do the tough inner work.

DBing isn't for the faint of the heart.

Mozza #2510348 11/24/14 02:53 AM
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You did sign up for M!

Vanilla


Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose.
V 64, WAW


Wonka #2510352 11/24/14 02:58 AM
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Wonka - I had understood this the day of the DB. I've never defended my criticism of my W or Ds. If you read carefully my posts, I explain that these are not things I'm proud of, that these are things I'm working on, that I'm discussing with IC, reading about, etc. Now, if you want to point me at specific places where I said that criticism was a good way to create change in anyone, I might review my position and understand why you were, apparently, voluntarily hurtful to me. On the other hand, I can point you to a post 12 days ago where I made the exact same points I had to make tonight.


M39 D6 D3 (at S)
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D 2016-09

"You can't start a fire sitting around, crying over a broken heart" - Bruce Springsteen.
Mozza #2510353 11/24/14 03:01 AM
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Don't twist my words, Mozza.

Wonka #2510365 11/24/14 04:03 AM
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Mozza

If your W challenged you as Wonka did. How would you react?

Would you want to be happy or right?

Would that get you where you want to go?

Can you be challenged and act and respond with love?

Accept that the other person has a valid but different view?

Reflect.

Vanilla

Last edited by Vanilla; 11/24/14 04:07 AM.

Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose.
V 64, WAW


Vanilla #2510385 11/24/14 05:50 AM
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Mozz, what is the first thing yoz learn at DB-ing? You can't be responsible for the feelings of others, just your own. Drop the rope, detach...

Mozza #2512254 11/30/14 04:58 PM
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Hey Mozza, you making it okay?


It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
sandi2 #2512434 12/01/14 02:58 AM
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Thanks a lot sandi2 for checking in on me. It's really appreciated. I decided to leave the boards for a while because it had gotten counterproductive, but I came back to follow the sitches of a few people.

I've had a fairly good week, probably my best since the beginning of the sitch. I had better PMA and more perspective, especially in the first half. I had some kind of relapse in the last few days, but the average is getting better.

When I picked up the kids on Friday, D6 came with her usual load of «good news» from W's household. This time, I learnt that OM will be moving in with W by January. That's 4.5 months after they first met, so about 2-3 months into their relationship. If this is really an A that will blow up, then they might as well experience the daily routine ASAP, right?

My W keeps on emailing me random stuff during the week: stuff she wrote online for work, an article related to my work, don't throw away kids' clothes, a sexist ad, etc. I've chosen to engage with her -- you might recall that one of my issues in the couple was being unresponsive, distant -- and these emails turn into exchanges with different topics. For the first time of my sitch, I've even initiated a communication: a pic of the funny-looking rental car I got, because we had talked about it. I got an OK response, but had no expectations and no intention of making it a habit.

Of course, the dilemma is that she's very much in an R with OM. Some might think I should go dark, limit communications to kids' stuff. For now, I've decided to remain a positive presence in her life, and I don't see how my silence on such mundane exchanges would help to bring her back.


M39 D6 D3 (at S)
S 2014-09
D 2016-09

"You can't start a fire sitting around, crying over a broken heart" - Bruce Springsteen.
Mozza #2512443 12/01/14 03:43 AM
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I'm glad you're back and doing well Mozz. I like that you're communicating with W positively, DB is about doing what works first and for most. As long as you're friendly and avoid R talk it can only be good. Not to mention will add extra strain on your W and OM's R if she is regularly and positively communicating with you, jealousy is a bitch smile


Me 28 W 27
T 10 M 2
No kids (fertility issues - mine)
Bomb 7/20/2014 - EA Confirmed
W moved out 9/15/14
W dating OM 11/22/14
Mozza #2512446 12/01/14 04:03 AM
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Smart man for taking some time off.
I do want to say that I totally agree with you (and I would bet there are some silent others) in regards to this....

Quote:
Thanks for your response. As I wrote, I'm sure your intentions are good. Also, I don't mind the differences of opinion, otherwise I wouldn't be here or speaking to anybody, content that I'd be with my own opinion.

I wrote "The way you express your opinion is hurting me." The content is not hurtful. You've asked for examples. I won't repeat the one from about a week ago where you suggested that my W thought I was a loser and thank g*d she had OM. This is very hurtful and can be conveyed much more gently. If I don't agree with you, it is no reason to resort to such lengths.


Michelle also agrees that if you have a therapist you should feel comfortable with them. I would say that would also mean people on her site that are trying to help you.

I don't believe you felt heard and I do believe you felt hurt.
I can certainly understand why and I was thinking the same things you were. So you are not alone in how you felt.


Michelle says..
Quote:
You should feel as if your therapist respects you and that your thoughts and feelings are being acknowledged.
(I didn't see your feelings and thoughts acknowledged)

Michelle also says.... You Are the Experts, You Set the Goals.

You must determine what you hope will happen as a result fo seeking therapy, not you therapist.

Michelle says this: The reason I am emphasizing that YOU must identify what you want to change is that some therapists will make that determination for you if you don't.

She goes on to say... Sometimes therapists suggest that you should change something that you don't find problematic. Other times therapists suggest that what you consider the real root of your problem requires focusing on something you find extraneous irrelevant or UNCOMFORTABLE. If something doesn't feel right to you, it isn't. Discuss your feelings immediately with your therapist and, if you don't feels understood, get yourself another therapist.

Michelle also says (all of her quotes in bold)(all in DB book)..

Therapy Needn't Be Very Painful

She goes on to say... Another reason traditional therapy can be uncomfortable is that a trademark of many of these approaches is confrontation. The therapist BOLDLY confronts clients about behavior considered self-destructive or unproductive. Sometimes these attacks occur BEFORE a person is willing to deal with an issue or are totally inconsistent with a person's self-concept. Naturally, this harsh and dissonant feedback is disturbing and, in my experience, rarely effective in helping a person change. Typically, one digs one's heels in deeper when feeling attacked.

She also says... confrontation is NOT necessary during the therapy. Most people take the initiative to address issues and concerns they are willing to change. If they don't raise certain issues, it's because they are not willing or ready to deal with them. Therapists should RESPECT people's intuitive sense of direction and self-protection and follow their client's lead.

Mozza,
I would have felt the same things you felt. I just wanted you to know that you were not alone. Remember, the vets are not always correct and it is ok to question them just as Michelle says it is ok to question any therapists methods.

Good luck...


Justin Credible
Hoju #2512528 12/01/14 03:36 PM
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W random email of the day: a promotional video of her workplace where she appears. OM also appears, though not in the same scene...

(Reminder: They met at her new job in August. 3-4 weeks later, she left me and a few weeks later, announced that she was with him. He's moving in with her in January but already lives there almost full time.)


M39 D6 D3 (at S)
S 2014-09
D 2016-09

"You can't start a fire sitting around, crying over a broken heart" - Bruce Springsteen.
Mozza #2512779 12/02/14 02:37 PM
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I just had my best night in three months! I didn't wake up with a racing heartbeat because of the S, which is a first. In fact, I was half awake for a few minutes and didn't even think of the S, which is very surprising. Oh, of course, I cried a little a few times during the morning routine, but without the deep sorrow that I usually feel. This trend started last week. Perhaps it's just time healing me?

I see two more potential explanations. First, the fact that OM is planning to move in with my W in January has an unexpected consequence: I see them as leaving the romantic phase and entering routine. It's something my W needs to learn through all this and it's also something I'm less jealous of. Second, I had a fairly long email exchange with my W yesterday, in which she initiated twice and I made her laugh. I have reasons to suspect her OM isn't as witty and she's seeking this with me. I'm still kind of confused about these exchanges. I'm also aware that my mood is still pegged to my W, but I see myself as improving gradually.

I had a good evening with the kids yesterday, cooking as usual, doing my workout with them (they love it), a bit of dancing, etc. I was in a good mood. I hug them a lot and they're very cuddly. I can tell how much they love me and I want to be deserving of this. Today, I can foresee a very good evening, as we're expecting guests with two kids their age.

By the way, I had a realization last evening: I've come up with a list of surprises for my wife that could improve the daily grind (after R), such as leaving notes around, etc. It occurred to me: many of these things, I can do for my kids. Not only is it a good way to practice and become a better person, but it has real, positive impact on my kids.


M39 D6 D3 (at S)
S 2014-09
D 2016-09

"You can't start a fire sitting around, crying over a broken heart" - Bruce Springsteen.
Mozza #2512792 12/02/14 03:16 PM
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Mozza, I really feel for you man. Sounds like you're going through a lot of same things I am (especially in regards to waking up with a racing heart). Your positivity and great attitude is really inspiring to me. I'm sure you've seen this before, but you should only worry about the things you can control! It sounds like you've been doing a great job in that regard. You also sound like an awesome dad!

Rooting for you!
- lonelyship


Me 23, Her 21
1S 2
M <1yr, T 7
WAW: She moved out 11/15/2014
She started D process 1/29/15
lnlyshp #2512824 12/02/14 04:35 PM
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Thanks lnlyshp. A week ago, I've made the conscious decision of being optimistic in my sitch. It's often a struggle, but I find it more helpful and no less realistic than the pessimism that can engulf me.

A few of things I do to help my PMA.
- List 3 things daily for which I'm grateful. Comes from happiness science, focuses your brain on positives.
- Visualize. I try to imagine how my sitch will move to R. Visualization is a known technique of successful people.
- Some reading of high achievers that fell on my lap. More inspiring than anticipated.
- Spend less time on these boards! My sitch has stabilized anyway. Reading too much the struggles of other people brings me down.
- Patience. Time really does make things better. It's awful to have to go through these hard times, but they're not for the rest of our lives.


M39 D6 D3 (at S)
S 2014-09
D 2016-09

"You can't start a fire sitting around, crying over a broken heart" - Bruce Springsteen.
Mozza #2512827 12/02/14 04:42 PM
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Being positive is definitely going to have a positive affect on your life, and the I like that your seeing that some of the ideas you thought through can be applied to other situations (liek notes for your kids) and that will hopefully make those more positive.

I know what you mean about the moving to routine - it brings real world problems and if your still having regular positive interaction then that will have an influence BUT (and its a really big BUT) dont have any expectations or peg your hopes to this. you need to keep your focus on you and your positivity.


Both mid 30s, 2 young kids
BD 7sep14
XW moved on long ago, now living with OM1
D paperwork in progress
jim0987 #2513085 12/03/14 01:29 AM
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Jcred - Your message form Sunday just appeared. I guess you were under moderation. Thanks for voicing your support. It turns out that Wonka's posts were just an elaborate prank to teach me a lesson.

jim0987 - Thanks for your advice. I'm still pegged to that idea, I admit it, but I also realize that I get better over time. I've decided to be kind on myself, given the good trend, and trust that my detachment will increase over time.


M39 D6 D3 (at S)
S 2014-09
D 2016-09

"You can't start a fire sitting around, crying over a broken heart" - Bruce Springsteen.
Mozza #2513088 12/03/14 01:44 AM
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Mozza,

I had to chuckle...you give me far too much credit for this so-called "prank."

Originally Posted By: Mozza
It turns out that Wonka's posts were just an elaborate prank to teach me a lesson.


I sincerely do hope that you've shut off all criticisms and put-downs in all of your interactions with your kiddos and W. Self-awareness goes a long way in repairing the damage from them.

Best of luck to you on this front.

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Wonka, please stop.


M39 D6 D3 (at S)
S 2014-09
D 2016-09

"You can't start a fire sitting around, crying over a broken heart" - Bruce Springsteen.
Mozza #2513107 12/03/14 02:44 AM
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Mozza,

Looks like we both have had good days today. I've got a favorable PMA also, actually had a conversation with the W that seemed relaxed and cordial. Its been a long time since that has happened.

I'm not as far ahead as you in proactively addressing my mood prior to starting the day, but I think its a good idea that I'll start to try to do. I do see that I'm more relaxed and thinking about the sitch less. Did you ever think that we would be feeling this way just a few weeks ago? I'm sure we'll be down again, but its good to sit back and see how much we've grown over this in a short amount of time.


M:36 W:37
T: 15 M:11
S6 D5
BD: 8/10/14
IDLY: 8/12/14
S: 8/13/14 (she left, I stayed w/ kids)
D Mentioned: 10/15/14
Confronted about OM: 10/15/14
EA: ~4/13 PA: ~10/13
She filed: 8/15 (not final)
Mozza #2513379 12/03/14 08:16 PM
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Originally Posted By: Mozza
Wonka, please stop.


What's got your knickers all twisted? My comment was kind and to the point. Stings too much? Don't want any reminders of it so you can just sweep it under the rug and pretend that you didn't do those things to your W and kids? Then you've not not willing to do some introspection at all. Seems you're blowing smoke when there's no fire.

Once again, I do sincerely hope you've ceased all of the negative criticisms of your loved ones.

If you cannot handle this simple feedback, then I guess you're going have to learn the hard way by yourself.

I am not understanding why you want to keep your head in the sand about this matter.

Wonka #2513386 12/03/14 08:24 PM
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Wonka - That's exactly it: I'm not keeping my head into the sand about it, not at all. I've admitted it, I've said it, I've confessed to it, I've listed it multiple times. Just read my posts from the beginning. I had realized it BEFORE coming here. I talk about it with my IC. I've told you this multiple times. You're the only one on my back about this, everyone else seems to see that I've no problem admitting this and working on it. I just don't understand your insistence. What have I done to you?


M39 D6 D3 (at S)
S 2014-09
D 2016-09

"You can't start a fire sitting around, crying over a broken heart" - Bruce Springsteen.
Mozza #2513405 12/03/14 09:17 PM
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Mozza,

Just keeping things real here. I can only trust what you post here and hope you do have the humility to ask what you can do to improve your situation. Take Vertex's situation for example...he's opened up and admitted to doing some really not nice things. He's genuinely asking for assistance on some of the ways he can turn around his situation.

What I appreciate Vertex the most is that he's been very open from the very beginning and is not hiding the fact that he's done some really awful things. Vertex has outlined some things that he's taking ownership of and we all see that.

Sometimes with you, we cannot always be sure which is why we sometimes ask the hard questions. Some posters leave out crucial information that we discover later and then go "bang! that's the real problem." Then the real work begins.

Mozza, I have nothing against you. You have a lot going for you. It is the omissions or not fully acknowledging some things that gets one in trouble here in the DB forums.

We are hard at times because we do key in on specific areas that are painful and make you look at it with open eyes...not flinching away or avoiding it just simple because it's too much or too painful.

We do this to SUPPORT you in making the necessary self-improvement changes to become a better person, better father, better spouse...

I want nothing but the best for you, your kiddos and W. I do want to see your family restored. Ayep...I do very much so.

Wonka #2513440 12/03/14 10:16 PM
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Wonka - I really hope we can get past this. I see that you're very helpful to others on this forum and I need the help. I don't know what I can do to convince you that I'm not hiding anything, that I'm keen on learning from this. Look at posts like this one where I lay out what my W said when she left, or, even better, this one where I translated an entire email from six months pre-BD where she described her issues in the M. I've explained that I have not once critized my W since BD, I've shared sample conversations showing how I dealt with her anger without reciprocating. I don't know why you think that I'm less open than Vertex. But the length you went with that prank really hurt me, in real life. I had told you of the pain at the time, asked you to stop, yet you kept at it. To discover after the fact that you didn't mean what you said, that it was a prank to teach me a lesson... Well, I'm still reeling from it. I lost sleep and I cried a good deal, if you want to know. I know you feel justified because you think it was tough love, but I seriously encourage you never to do this again with someone else. There are other, more efficient ways. I believe it was an honest mistake and I want to get past it. In these darkest times of my life, I have little energy, PMA and time and I want to devote it to the right things. I'd be very, truly grateful for your help in this. I like what you write on other threads.


M39 D6 D3 (at S)
S 2014-09
D 2016-09

"You can't start a fire sitting around, crying over a broken heart" - Bruce Springsteen.
Mozza #2513447 12/03/14 10:28 PM
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Mozza,


I am so sorry for the hurt I've inflicted on you...my intent to was to demonstrate to you how your criticisms have hurt your W and kiddos deeply. Sometimes the best teachers show up to mirror back to you what needed to be addressed. That was my whole point and I do think you've had an awakening. Please know that it was not a prank or never was. I don't do pranks at all.

We will get past this because I am here to support you and do feel that you are more self-aware as you have grown quite bit over the past week or so. You may not always like my methods or approaches. However, your input has been noted and I will be respectful of it going forward.

We're good. Thank you, Mozza, for your willingness to open up and telling me what you need from me going forward. There may be times that some difficult questions may be asked and others will also do the same as a way to spur you on a path of personal growth.

Upward and onward, buddy! smile

Wonka #2513577 12/04/14 03:33 AM
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Thanks Wonka. Upward and onward.

Well, I want to talk about my sitch, but I just don't know what to say. I've entered a plateau in terms of interactions with my W. She moved out in September, I see her one minute per 2 weeks, it's been over a month I've known for sure for OM (suspected since the beginning), I've learnt last week that he's planning to move in with her in January. It looks like they'll be making it real. I'm fine with it: it will be a make or break for their R.

The only pending thing is: What do I do with her random emails? Right now, I respond to them because I want to be a positive presence in her life, something that will slowly replace the memory of our M that she took when she left. She seeks my presence through these emails, and I never initiate. I was too aloof during our R, so I make the effort (easy, now!) to be responsive.

I also have a good idea of what happened, what lead to BD. On my end, I was too critical of my W and she felt uncomfortable and undervalued around me. She voiced that several times to me and I failed to change. As for her, she openly dreams of everlasting romantic love that the daily grind can't deliver. My analysis isn't over, but it has matured in the last couple of months and I feel less urge to explore the reasons, the causes of my S.

I guess it's time to focus on myself. I've been fairly good at it so far. I see an IC ever since she used the S word, before the BD, and I find it helpful (though slow). I read books like T5LL and DR. I GAL a lot: I see a lot of friends, I accept every invitation, I took a cooking class, I started working out, I learn to cook new stuff, I'm a single dad every second week, etc. Maybe I need some more down time to think about what I want for myself. I don't even know where to start with this question.

My challenge is detaching. My moods are still pegged to my W's every (perceived) move. I feel I'm getting better over time though, but not all that much. I guess less than 3 months, with all the shocks, is still a short time.

Thoughts welcome...


M39 D6 D3 (at S)
S 2014-09
D 2016-09

"You can't start a fire sitting around, crying over a broken heart" - Bruce Springsteen.
Mozza #2513603 12/04/14 10:07 AM
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Quote:
Thoughts welcome


I think many times we make simple things more complicated than they really are.

Women are attracted to happy, confident and emotionally strong men who seem to be going somewhere with their life. A man who lets a woman be who she is. A man who loves life.

Be that man. I would let her wonder what is going on and not show her all my cards. Set her emotionally free. Let her see emotional strength.

Absence is to love as wind is to fire...

It blows out the weak and kindles the strong.....

Keep it simple...... You're doing fine. Seek peace in your life.


Justin Credible
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Mozza,

It blows that your W is involved with OM. While in the initial stages of their A, the focus will be on each other. They will block out all other stuff around them...even you as the H. frown

Originally Posted By: Mozza
I also have a good idea of what happened, what lead to BD. On my end, I was too critical of my W and she felt uncomfortable and undervalued around me. She voiced that several times to me and I failed to change. As for her, she openly dreams of everlasting romantic love that the daily grind can't deliver. My analysis isn't over, but it has matured in the last couple of months and I feel less urge to explore the reasons, the causes of my S.


Then you can do 180s on them when you interact with W. Speak softly and look W in the eye. Try to be supportive of her when appropriate such as boosting her (i.e., she gives a presentation..just say "I know you'll knock it out of the park! You're very good at this."). Be sincere when you do this. When it veers into OM territory, look past the OM and don't even acknowledge him. I never did until recently with Ms. Wonka. Grrrrrr...fingernails on a chalkboard!

Do you know what W's possible LL are? Most of the time our LL are in pairs. Mine are QT and PT. What I mean by this is that when I receive them--QT & PT, my love tank is very full. There's a difference in giving and receiving LLs.

Wonka #2513768 12/04/14 07:30 PM
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Thanks a lot Wonka. I really appreciate your thoughts. I feel a certain sense of withdrawal, now that there's much less to say about my sitch, yet I still think about it almost all the time.

I do feel better overall. Through my pain, I feel strangely optimistic. I realize that from the outside, my sitch must look like it's getting worse, but to me it's following the arc that I imagined at BD and the one that many successful reconciliations followed. I thought there was an OM to explain why W was in such a rush to leave (a repeat of 2009) and I think she found someone with whom it can't last (too little in common). Of course, it will start strong and they'll feel they're made for each other for a little while. Moving in together is going to normalize their love, according to the research I read. High expectations won't be met. Then she'll either settle with him nevertheless, rich of a new maturity, or realize that there are better options, including the new and improved Mozza.

Also, the more I read around here, the more I think that as much as I hurt my W and that I need to become a better man and H, I've much less to be forgiven for than some. It's doable. I give my couple a ridiculously high chance of reconciliation of 7/10 and I made the choice to be optimistic. It's a marathon.


Originally Posted By: Wonka
It blows that your W is involved with OM. While in the initial stages of their A, the focus will be on each other. They will block out all other stuff around them...even you as the H. frown
That's why I'm puzzled by her random emails. Why would she try to make me laugh, to get my reaction, to send me useful stuff, if she's so involved with her OM? Where does she find the interest for me? One thing to note is that she's not from this country and her network has been reduced by 95% now that she left me. All she has left are her colleagues (20-something who go out together) and a couple of older friends. She was (is?) upset that my friends and family are not really contacting her.


Originally Posted By: Wonka
Originally Posted By: Mozza
I also have a good idea of what happened, what lead to BD. On my end, I was too critical of my W and she felt uncomfortable and undervalued around me. She voiced that several times to me and I failed to change. As for her, she openly dreams of everlasting romantic love that the daily grind can't deliver. My analysis isn't over, but it has matured in the last couple of months and I feel less urge to explore the reasons, the causes of my S.

Then you can do 180s on them when you interact with W. Speak softly and look W in the eye. Try to be supportive of her when appropriate such as boosting her (i.e., she gives a presentation..just say "I know you'll knock it out of the park! You're very good at this."). Be sincere when you do this. When it veers into OM territory, look past the OM and don't even acknowledge him. I never did until recently with Ms. Wonka. Grrrrrr...fingernails on a chalkboard!
That's encouraging because that's what I've been doing. When she initiates, I'm supportive. I even check my sense of humor to make sure it never diminishes her (I'm self-deprecating and it can extend to others...). She's in a "girl power" phase and is very assertive. She's in charge and doesn't give an inch. I accept that and never get in the way. In fact, I'm happy about that and would have welcomed it in our R. It also seems to be very typical of WAWs, from what I read around here, especially as she felt she was walking on eggshells around me. Really, if she wants to justify her departure on my behavior, she has to rely on the past, because I haven't given her much to chew on since she left. In fact, she seems to be enthusiastic about our contacts, even calling my parents to tell her how well we get along. My fear: she thinks this is evidence we're fantastic co-parents and not meant to be in a couple.

I have never acknowledged the OM, apart from two exceptions. When she announced their R by email, I replied simply "Thanks for telling me." Also, before being the offical OM, he came to help her move her remaining stuff. I said "Hi", walked past him and didn't talk to him for the rest of the hour. I noticed she's also careful never to mention him and they don't seem to have appeared together on social networks.


Originally Posted By: Wonka
Do you know what W's possible LL are? Most of the time our LL are in pairs. Mine are QT and PT. What I mean by this is that when I receive them--QT & PT, my love tank is very full. There's a difference in giving and receiving LLs.
Yes, I read T5LL and it's clear to me that her principal receiving LL is Words of Affirmation. I now recall the many times she told me "You need to TELL me X". She'd sit on my lap and ask "Do you love me?" and I'd dismiss her with a quick "Of course". Her second receiving LL would be physical touch. We had desire and frequent sex until the end, but mostly she's the kind of girl always seeking a hug. She'd tell me: "Why do you hug the kids and not me?" and I had no response (working on it with IC -- he thinks maybe I didn't love her after all?!). Her giving LLs were probably PT and Gifts, but it's less clear to me.

My principal receiving LL is Quality Time. Sometimes I need complete and undivided attention, which she would rarely give me towards the end, leading to arguments, in part because I didn't realize I'm special in that regard. As for the LL I give, I believe it's Acts of Service: I'm a very involved father (50% of childcare, cooking, cleaning...), I give her the freedom to go out, including holidays alone, I'd spend much time helping her find a job, etc.

As you can probably tell, we spoke of love past each other a lot...


M39 D6 D3 (at S)
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"You can't start a fire sitting around, crying over a broken heart" - Bruce Springsteen.
Mozza #2513775 12/04/14 07:45 PM
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Mozza,

Can you please give me a quick run-down on the timeline of BD, your discovery of the OM, your current status, etc? This will help me give me some ideas on the next steps for your sitch.

I do see hope in your sitch.

Wonka #2513795 12/04/14 08:42 PM
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Oh thanks, that's exciting. DB really starts in 2014, but here's some context.

Feb 2005: We meet in her country, at our workplace. Start dating in 3 weeks (check for patterns!).
Sept 2005: We moved to the US (neither our country). It's the first time she lives with a BF.

May 2007: We decide to have a baby.
March 2008: Our first daughter is born. 5 months maternity leave. W happy to go back to work.

May 2009: W has an A with a sweet-talking, married colleague. EA first, then PA during business trip. He disappoints and she wakes up, preferring to keep our family together. She confesses A to me, I forgive her, we move on. Not much is done for lasting changes.

May 2010: We get married, mostly for visa reasons, at 3 weeks notice. We have a small ceremony at city court, matching outfits, pictures, 7-8 friends, meal, etc. W insist it's a M for love, not for papers (I agree!). Pictures go up in the house.

Jan 2011: We decide to start paperwork to move to my country (she initiated the idea). Painful bureaucratic process takes its toll.
Sept 2011: Second daughter is born. W very very attached to her. 4 months maternity leave. She develops some anxiety not long after. Gets some medication.

June 2013: We move to my country. I start my company, she's jobseeking and freelancing. It's a career change for her, I'm supportive. She spends over a year mostly at home and discovering this new city, which she prefers to the previous one. She develops an adaptation trouble and takes anti-depressants for it, but says she's happy with the move. We argue more often and intensely, sometimes in front of kids, which she dislikes a lot. Love tanks empty.

Aug 2014: W finds a job in an exciting startup full of people in their 20s. They go out several times a week, drink at work, have chess games and Playstations, etc. True startup.
Sept 2014: W announces she wants S. Wants to be alone, not in a couple. Acknowledges that "work" has made her see a better life. Two weeks after first mention of S, she's in her own apartment (move paid by well-off parents) a quarter-mile from my apartment. Colleagues, including OM, do the heavy lifting. I'm not involved.
Oct 2014: OM is confirmed when D6 tells me at Halloween that OM is there 4-5 days a week including in the morning. He was giving gifts, invitation, compliments from day 1. He's handsome, athletic and 10 years my junior. I'm not surprised. I say nothing. A week later, W emails me the announcement saying she "owed me the truth" and I should do the same if I meet someone, because of the kids.
Nov 2014: D6 announces that OM will move in with W in January. I suspect love but also financial reasons.

The separation arrangement is not in writing: we agree on just about everything: kids 50/50, alternating week, we don't have a car or house, we always kept separate accounts, etc. Kids continue to go to the same school and daycare. We now have separate wardrobes for them. Barely need to communicate and when we do, it's cordial (Thanks! You're welcome!). W will go to her country for Holidays and I keep the kids for 2.5 weeks.

We had some tensions in the first weeks because she was dealing with S and also issues at work (too much work, nasty boss). I never argued back and she calmed down. She invited me for lunch twice: first one (Sept 30) we were a mess, second (Nov 5) just after OM announcement is the near-perfect DB lunch with chit chat and laughs. She contacted my parents to say she missed them and that she and I get along so well. She sends me those random emails and engages in banter. She told me and other people have told me that she doesn't really talk about the S and when she does, it's a somewhat "official version" about us being incompatible. She says she doesn't want to look back because she's going forward.

Anything else might be useful? I'm very grateful for your attention.


M39 D6 D3 (at S)
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"You can't start a fire sitting around, crying over a broken heart" - Bruce Springsteen.
Mozza #2513849 12/04/14 11:32 PM
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Thanks, Mozza. I will need to think some more about your sitch before responding in more depth.

1) Do you still want to save your M?
2) Have you had any consultations with a DB Coach?

Wonka #2513851 12/04/14 11:35 PM
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1) Yes, I still want to save my M.
2) No, I've not had any consultations. I've read DR.

Thanks a lot for your brain power.


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Mozza #2513973 12/05/14 04:55 AM
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A few notes about what makes me think this is a sort of MLC, even though my W is only 34. I've read very little about MLCs though.

My W said during the BD talks that maybe she had her kids too young after all, even though she's the one who was ready first to have a baby and I agreed a month later (W gave birth at 27). My W even told me she was quoting me about being too young, but I have no recollection of saying that. She's been treating the kids as work more than people since she left, putting them to bed very early for instance (D6 noticed).

She's high on the youthfulness of her colleagues. When I asked her what age are her colleagues, she replied: "My age: 30, 28" (she's 34).

The lifestyle she bought into is not conducive to kids, like the one we had created for ourselves, with lots of other families. Her colleagues don't have kids. Few seem to be in long term relationships. They go out a lot. They have activities together outside of work, such as charity runs, etc.

She brags about drinking more alcohol. She has been doing so since she started this job and seems to bring it up every opportunity she gets. She would drink less than a glass of alcohol per month since 2005, after a similar episode where she decided that drunk = fun, until she threw up a few hours later.

She changed her clothes into something sexier, though not dramatically. But she now has boots with heels and a few dresses, which she never wore before (even though I would have liked it). And don't get me started on her S&M Halloween costume! ;-)

And of course, there are the good looks and age of her BF (5.5 years her junior).


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Mozza #2514061 12/05/14 02:20 PM
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Mozza,

I can tell you right off bat that your W isn't in MLC. Just a WAW who wants the fun, youthful lifestyle without any responsibilities. Silly girl.

Wonka #2514260 12/05/14 06:50 PM
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Well, that's that then. She's having fun, that's for sure. Don't know how long it will last. She just emailed me again telling me she's overworked, she doesn't even like what she has to do and she didn't get the raise she was hoping for. Her BF is moving in in January and I just saw the posting online to sublet his current apartment. It's getting real. Not good for my PMA...


M39 D6 D3 (at S)
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"You can't start a fire sitting around, crying over a broken heart" - Bruce Springsteen.
Mozza #2514348 12/05/14 10:13 PM
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Hi mozza. Remember before you said that them moving in might speed up the end if the A - it will get real quickly and if its fun she wants that might not last that long.

You seem to be doing a really good job on identify your things and working on them. Try and concentrate your PMA by remembering that.


Both mid 30s, 2 young kids
BD 7sep14
XW moved on long ago, now living with OM1
D paperwork in progress
jim0987 #2514391 12/06/14 12:49 AM
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You're right, jim0987. Thanks for the reminder. My parents calmed me down with the same talk.

Tonight D6 said: "I asked mom what her dream drawing would be and it's her, OM, me, D3 and her parents in a park."

D3 said: "We went to the pool as a family: mommy, OM, D6 and me."

This impression of having been replaced overnight, after being there through so much as a husband over almost 10 years, is very hard to bear. While imperfect and willing to recognize what I did wrong, I struggle to understand how what I did went beyond "for better or for worst", why it was deemed unrepairable so quickly. I'm trying to stay positive, but sometimes I really look forward to reading what hope Wonka sees in my sitch... It seems like such a done deal on her end, with no reason to hold back on anything.


M39 D6 D3 (at S)
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"You can't start a fire sitting around, crying over a broken heart" - Bruce Springsteen.
Mozza #2514393 12/06/14 01:26 AM
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Mozza,

After thinking about your sitch a bit, I can now see that W clearly sees you as a friend. Not H.

If you really want to save your M, it's high time that you really pull back and stop being so available/helpful to W. We see this quite bit where the WAW slowly replaces the OM in the H's place as a father. This is where you really need to put W in her place and tell her in no uncertain terms that you are their father.

I am all for respectful and cordial exchanges when it comes to children. The problem I am seeing right now is that your W has given no thought to the consequences of her choices of abdicating her responsibilities as a wife. Yeah, her position at her company is her responsibility and I do see her sobering up after realizing what precarious position she put herself with her boozy/partying antics with her colleagues at the company. She pulled back because she knows that she was skating on thin ice as an employee. The unspoken threat is hanging over head and she knows it. Very much does know this knife could come down at anytime.

With you, W does not feel that she's not skating on thin ice in the marital department. Why should she given that you and W are so friendly? There's no perceived threat of loss given that you two are so chummy. Haven't you gotten any sense of that from reading HPoriot's threads? This is textbook case of the W knowing full well what happens if she continues with the OM--loss of HP, loss of S11, and loss of the happy family unit. And frankly many, many sitches have turned around when the W or H senses losing their spouses forever--for real. In fact, many times it happend literally at the 11th hour.

Have you communicated in any way to W that you do not want a S nor a divorce?


Last edited by Wonka; 12/06/14 01:28 AM.
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Thanks a lot, Wonka. I was really looking forward to your ideas. This is a new perspective, as so far I've tried to stay as a positive presence in my W's life. I see where you're coming from and I'll think more about it. I'll get back to you with some questions, if you don't mind.

In the meantime, I'd like to answer to your question about whether my W knows that I don't want an S. It's somewhat complicated and I don't know if she knows anymore.

I have told my W at the end of the BD talks that I didn't want to separate, but I couldn't keep her from leaving. That evening, I was collected and not crying for the first time in a week. At the end of the conversation, I told her that even if I looked different, I felt the same on the inside. She thanked me for telling her because she wasn't sure. One week of bawling and pleading and she doubted the whole thing after a mere 90 minutes of calm. Where does she stand after 2.5 months of not pursuing?

The day she was leaving, I hugged her, crying my heart out and telling her "my love, my love..." repeatedly. She was totally unfazed, waiting for the show to be over. In tears, I asked her if "all options were open" and she replied "Yes, but we shouldn't base our lives on this." This is the last time and way I clearly told her I didn't want to separate.

We had lunch 10 days after she left (Sept 30). She was a mess and wanted to talk about our emotions in the S -- she said she was sad, insomniac. I was guarded, afraid of R talks. I told her we needed to live through this and see if we'd meet on the other side. She agreed. She had also told me at that lunch that she was only looking ahead.

In early November, she called me because I was not responsive enough and she did a temperature check, asking me how I was taking the whole thing. I told her it had been a difficult time, but that I had realized I needed to pick myself up. I had no choice but to move on since she had made the decision. She left a silence afterwards. I didn't ask her the question because I didn't want to do a temperature check. The following day, she sent me an email announcing OM and asked me to do the same if I met someone.

In late November, my best friend (whom she really likes and misses) wrote her a birthday email and she replied saying "Just like I told Mozza, I need to go forward, otherwise... Well, just like him, you know." I don't know what to make of this "otherwise" or the suggestion that I refuse to look back. Does she think I'm happily moving ahead?

All through this, she's planning Christmas next year, telling me that she'll move away from my country in a few years, that we have 15 years of co-parenting left before the kids are grown up, etc. Everything she does and says suggests our M is over for her, except that she (and I) never talk about D. She was reluctant to talk about D during the BD talks, as if this was some bothersome paperwork. There's a year of delay after the physical separation where we are anyway.

In our R, my W felt I had abandoned her emotionally, that I was withdrawn. I now realize we just spoke different LLs. She told me during the BD talks that "she didn't know I loved her this much". It's possible that she thinks I was done with her and that she's done us both a favor by leaving. As per BD, when I meet her, I'm upbeat. I've been afraid of telling her anything suggesting I miss her for fear of pursuing and pushing her away.

My W is very afraid of rejection. I don't know if she'd have it in her to come back, not knowing I want her back.

One last thing: in 2009, when she wanted to leave me because she thought I'd never forgive her short A, I pleased and cried and it worked. She said she realized how much I loved her (among other factors) and it made her rethink her decision. I haven't played that card since BD, especially since she's been so detached from me and getting involved deeply with OM. She seemed to be in a different place, completely detached from me.

Hm, this was longer than I expected... This question is very much on my mind as you can tell.


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Mozza #2514430 12/06/14 03:30 AM
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Mozza,

Here's your homework. Read up and study.

Success Stories

psst...there might be a pop-up quiz coming down the pike wink

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Done! I read the five success stories in your post.

Train - This short thread is during the piecing phase. Not clear how she got there.

Mighty - It was also after her husband was showing signs of wanting to piece. He was breaking up with his pregnant girlfriend. I explored her older threads but wasn't sure what I was looking for.

Rain - I read the thread from Feb to Nov 14 where she recaps. It looks like her H was very afraid of losing her after all and that's what brought him back. It looks like her H had 4 (!) OWs. Another inspiring thing is that her H had decided that he didn't have a chance with Raine, and that's something that might be happening in my sitch.

Crimson - Interesting that his WAW was in a serious relationship with someone else, but this R failed on its own. Fascinating that he went through D before piecing. Scary, too.

Heart14 - She sounds like the same factors got her to DB, but they never separated. It was short though.

Many of these were MLCs, yet you say that my sitch is not an MLC. Are you sure it applies?

Awaiting orders!


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Mozza #2514585 12/06/14 09:27 PM
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Mozza,

What are some of the common themes that you see in those threads?


Last edited by Wonka; 12/06/14 09:28 PM.
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1. Patience, persistence. Many LBS seem to have given up before things turned around.

2. The WAW turned around when they realized the worth of their LBS.

3. Many LBS were reluctant at first, wary of their WAS.

4. There were As, some quite serious and long lasting.

(Back to decorating the Christmas tree with D3 and D6!)


M39 D6 D3 (at S)
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Mozza #2514876 12/07/14 09:18 PM
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I saw my W for one minute yesterday, when I dropped off the kids. She gave me a hug with slow kisses on the cheeks. My hand lingered for one second on her back. It was cordial as usual, I told her what was in the suitcase and started to turn around when I realized she was leaning in for more cheek kisses. I went for it, of course. My, how I miss her. Seeing her was so... familiar. Her cheek was so soft. Oh my...


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Mozza #2514881 12/07/14 09:40 PM
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I see that you've had your Wet Noodle moment, Mozza. That's a no-go! But you knew that anyway and still fell for W's female wiles.

What's with the men around here??? confused confused

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Wait, what have I done wrong? (serious question) I looked upbeat in person. She leaned in to kiss me when I arrived and when I was leaving. Was I supposed to stand back and avoid her kisses?


M39 D6 D3 (at S)
S 2014-09
D 2016-09

"You can't start a fire sitting around, crying over a broken heart" - Bruce Springsteen.
Mozza #2514889 12/07/14 09:54 PM
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Yep. Your W is in an A with the OM and she's keeping you in your place as her plan B.

Are you okay with sharing her with another man, Mozza? Are you okay with being in an open M?

Wonka #2514891 12/07/14 10:00 PM
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Of course I'm not ok with either. It tortures me that she's with someone else. I hate the two options in front of me: either she's gone for good, or she comes back after taking this "romantic holiday".

So you're saying I need to be cold and distant with her? No niceties and banter, no touching, etc.? Won't she just say "Mozza is a jerk" and hate me for the rest of our lives? It seems like her OM was quite nice to her when he stole her from my M. How do we get to "I want to be with Mozza" with this strategy?


M39 D6 D3 (at S)
S 2014-09
D 2016-09

"You can't start a fire sitting around, crying over a broken heart" - Bruce Springsteen.
Mozza #2514911 12/07/14 10:55 PM
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Its a question that perplexes me as well. so i'm hoping you'll get a good answer

my guess is that it comes down to a mixture of things including:
- she needs to respect you to find you attractive and that means not looking weak ('wet noodle')
- people want what they cant have so she needs to think she cant have you (you become the forbiddent fruit)
- you have to defuse the negatives before the positives can have a meaningful affect

but i have to say that when one of the complaints was about distance or being cold it does seem weird that more of this might turn things around. I dont know anyone who has fallen for the person that pays them no attention. guess thats why they say this is counter intuitive


Both mid 30s, 2 young kids
BD 7sep14
XW moved on long ago, now living with OM1
D paperwork in progress
jim0987 #2514916 12/07/14 11:10 PM
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Hey Mozza! I know Wonka will have a better reply for you but I will say that you don't need to be cold and distant. You need to show WAW that she can't have you be fun and friendly unless she gives up OM and tries to work on the relationship with you.

That means being polite but distant. No hugs and kisses. For example, if she tries to hug you, let her but don't really reciprocate. If she gives you her cheek to kiss, ignore it. Let her chase you.

Sure she might get angry and hurt and say "Mozza you don't want to hug me? See that is why we are not together, you are so distant! blah blah blah" To which you quietly and calmly respond "W, we are separated and you have a boyfriend. I don't want to hug and kiss you while you are with another man." or something like that. I'm not a vet so I don't know exactly what to say but you get the idea...

And jim,
Originally Posted By: jim0987
I dont know anyone who has fallen for the person that pays them no attention. guess thats why they say this is counter intuitive

people fall for the person who ignores them all the time!!! That is so common! Ever heard "people always want what they can't have"? smile

That's my 2 cents.

Hugs!
Lisa

LisaB #2515186 12/08/14 07:42 PM
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Thank you jim0987 and LisaB! Much to say but I'm at work with a client. Also, I think Wonka just replied to this on HPoirot's thread.

Originally Posted By: Wonka
HP,

I am firmly on Sandi's side on this one:

Originally Posted By: Sandi2
Well, I may get switches in my Christmas stockings for saying this, but I would just have to say, "Sorry, too little too late". Then walk away. That is a truth dart that really needs to penetrate.

You see, this is just a taste she will need to experience. She has to see for herself that you are through with her. You have decided you won't take whatever crumbs she decides to leave for you. She needs to see what it must have been like for you. (Only she can't really feel the same as you did.) That is why it is important that you don't cave while she's applying this pressure.

That ^^ is the crux of the whole matter: not accepting crumbs from WAW. I hope every LBH reads this and lets that sink in in their wet noodle minds. HP, no it will signal the death knell of the M. Instead, it will signal the death knell of the Wet Noodle HP and show your W that you mean business when it comes to your boundaries.


M39 D6 D3 (at S)
S 2014-09
D 2016-09

"You can't start a fire sitting around, crying over a broken heart" - Bruce Springsteen.
Mozza #2515204 12/08/14 08:21 PM
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Mozza, thanks for sharing! I love the advice on HP's thread. He has so much excitement and drama it is almost more enthralling than a movie. I feel for him.

Wet noodles no more!!! Although I think in the case of us too nice women, we need to embrace our bitch side. laugh

Hugs, LisaB

LisaB #2515206 12/08/14 08:28 PM
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Mozza... shut down the hugs and kiss kiss. Maybe say "Really?" You know that's the right thing to do. She has to know you are not her friend. Frustrate her. Women can thrive on drama... positive or negative. It is a part of attraction. You know that.

LIsaB... Thank you for the kind sentiment. I have noticed how my thread is like a tragic hard drama everyday. I can't imaging what's coming in just 30 minutes. Get ready, though, for my threads to be full of happy GAL and quiet living next week from the condo.

Last edited by HPoirot; 12/08/14 08:30 PM.

Me: 44
W: 45
S: 11
Married: 15
Together: 18
BD: 9/29/2014
OM discovered: 10/16/2014
I left her behind: 12/14/2014
LisaB #2515214 12/08/14 08:42 PM
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Agreed: HPoirot is stealing the show these days. I love especially the play-by-plays with his W.

HPoirot: Yes, the tough love approach is working well for you, but your W is so engaged, I don't know how it works with a W that has moved out and is about to move in with her OM! Is she really afraid of losing me me?!

12 pages? Time for a new thread. See you all over there.

Mozza 6


M39 D6 D3 (at S)
S 2014-09
D 2016-09

"You can't start a fire sitting around, crying over a broken heart" - Bruce Springsteen.
HPoirot #2515216 12/08/14 08:42 PM
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HP you are doing so well and are an inspiration to lots of us here. Keep it up! And I do look forward to your exciting and enthralling tales of GAL soon! smile

Mozza #2515230 12/08/14 09:08 PM
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Mozza,

Originally Posted By: Mozza
Thank you jim0987 and LisaB! Much to say but I'm at work with a client. Also, I think Wonka just replied to this on HPoirot's thread.

Originally Posted By: Wonka
HP,

I am firmly on Sandi's side on this one:

Originally Posted By: Sandi2
Well, I may get switches in my Christmas stockings for saying this, but I would just have to say, "Sorry, too little too late". Then walk away. That is a truth dart that really needs to penetrate.

You see, this is just a taste she will need to experience. She has to see for herself that you are through with her. You have decided you won't take whatever crumbs she decides to leave for you. She needs to see what it must have been like for you. (Only she can't really feel the same as you did.) That is why it is important that you don't cave while she's applying this pressure.

That ^^ is the crux of the whole matter: not accepting crumbs from WAW. I hope every LBH reads this and lets that sink in in their wet noodle minds. HP, no it will signal the death knell of the M. Instead, it will signal the death knell of the Wet Noodle HP and show your W that you mean business when it comes to your boundaries.


This ^^ answers your earlier questions on what you are doing wrong. Exactly.

Can you do this with your W? Pull back and stop acting like a slobbering puppy around her.

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