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A Message from Michele
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Card29 VII #2512622
12/01/14 10:34 PM
12/01/14 10:34 PM
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New thread.

Originally Posted By: Ss06
Card, I needyo find a way to inform my H of this, too. He thinks I only want to stay together for D. It's hard to convey wanting him without it being seen as pursuing. Any ideas on that??

What a challenge!!


I'm trying to think how. I don't expect there to be a perfect time that arises naturally. If I do bring it up on my own, I want to make sure I ask her if she's willing to have a brief R talk, and also not to try to get a response from her. Just make a brief statement (after she's agreed to listen) that doesn't ask her for anything, and let it go.

I do feel like that breaks DB rules. I don't see how it's possible to say something like that without pursuing, because it is the very essence of pursuit (telling them you love them, to an extent).

I'm feeling the urge to speak out because silence has led to misunderstandings before. She thought I was dating and would be cool with her pursuing dates (no I haven't said a word to her about that in a few weeks). More open communication would be a 180 for both of us (compared to pre-BD) as I didn't know she was headed for S, and she didn't know I loved her...yet I can't practice this 180 on her because it violates DBing.


I just found out a weird bit of news from WAW. She's not going to visit her family in TN during Christmas. This will be the first time since I've known her that she hasn't went down there. Whom I would consider to be her best friend, her cousin, is down there, too. I've sensed a disconnect between them lately as her cousin has texted me and told me that WAW hasn't been very responsive to her texts. I don't know if anything is going on there or not. It sound like she won't even see her mom and sister for Christmas this year. Who knows...


Me 30, STBX 30
D3
M 8 years
BD 6/3/14
S 7/26/14
Off-and-on. PA since BD. Possibly "off" since Winter 2015?
Light Switch/I'm Over Her 12/31/14
D finalized 1/10/16
Re: Card29 VII [Re: Card29] #2512632
12/01/14 11:08 PM
12/01/14 11:08 PM
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Whoops, I thought my other thread was locked. Turns out I was just logged out. Oh well, I'll move on to this one


Me 30, STBX 30
D3
M 8 years
BD 6/3/14
S 7/26/14
Off-and-on. PA since BD. Possibly "off" since Winter 2015?
Light Switch/I'm Over Her 12/31/14
D finalized 1/10/16
Re: Card29 VII [Re: Card29] #2512633
12/01/14 11:15 PM
12/01/14 11:15 PM
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New England
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DB is doing what works. If it works, do it. But monitor. If it's clear you're perusing too much and it's pushing your spouse away, stop.


ME: 38
BF: 40
T: 10y, no kids, no M (by choice)
BD: 7/14/14, BF admits to PA, wants out, lies about new R.
10/1/14: I move out, BF lies about move in with OW
12/4/14: OW confronted, reveals all the lies
Re: Card29 VII [Re: Little] #2512661
12/02/14 01:52 AM
12/02/14 01:52 AM
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I'm going to wait at least a couple of weeks to consider this. Right now she is very stressed about the end of her semester. I'd like to see her eating and feeling a little better


Me 30, STBX 30
D3
M 8 years
BD 6/3/14
S 7/26/14
Off-and-on. PA since BD. Possibly "off" since Winter 2015?
Light Switch/I'm Over Her 12/31/14
D finalized 1/10/16
Re: Card29 VII [Re: Card29] #2512668
12/02/14 02:17 AM
12/02/14 02:17 AM
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Card, it's not unusual for the WAS to isolate themselves from people they believe won't support their new ways, thoughts, direction, you know? Plus, there's a but of shame, too. Pulling away from all that is easier to them than explaining their perspective because the WAS knows there are holes in their rationality.

Little is right, do what works but in my case, pursing at all does NOT work. It pushes H away and makes me feel less strong and more reliant. I don't want any of that!


M: 37 H: 36
M: 13 T: 18
D: 7
Bomb: 6/30/14
Separation: 8/11/14

Be strong enough to let go and wise enough to wait for what you deserve.
Re: Card29 VII [Re: Ss06] #2512704
12/02/14 03:38 AM
12/02/14 03:38 AM
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Card,

I ordered the book as well, I'll be interested in hearing your thoughts. I peeked at their forum, and honestly, it all felt doom and gloom. I have enough of that going on internally, so I decided to stick here instead.

I agree with Little, try what works. Document. Change what doesn't.

Also, I'm not up to date on your stitch (I plan on catching up) but I empathize completely with wanting for the spouse to be in a better place. Especially taking care of themselves.

hang in there.


M:32,H 32
T:10, M5
BD/H Move Out: 9/2014 - extreme anger
H Mental Illness Diagnosis: 4/15
Served D Papers: 10/15
Divorced: 11/15
Re: Card29 VII [Re: Ss06] #2512705
12/02/14 03:41 AM
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SS-

Wonder if that's what H is doing. Holed up in his hotel room. He's talking to his parents who, of course, are supporting everything with rainbows and butterflies and money. He talks to his IC. He argues with me. I wonder, even though he's a private person, if he's hiding out because he's afraid others might be "wtf are you doing?"

Hmmmmm.

Sorry to thread jack Card!


M:32,H 32
T:10, M5
BD/H Move Out: 9/2014 - extreme anger
H Mental Illness Diagnosis: 4/15
Served D Papers: 10/15
Divorced: 11/15
Re: Card29 VII [Re: Calibri] #2512711
12/02/14 03:59 AM
12/02/14 03:59 AM
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Calibri, I can almost guarantee that's what your H is doing. The WAS is so lost and in genuine pain. I'm pretty sure they wouldn't admit to that though. So many feel like they finally have a true direction in their life but if they really paid attention they'd see how lost they feel and how confused they are.

Admitting that requires vulnerability but the WAS doesn't want to be vulnerable because it implies weakness. They speak firmly, act with definitive purpose and generally act as if this is what they've always wanted and that they are finally free to be their true selves.

Some don't do the work and suggesting they do it only keeps them from the real work (super hard for people like you and me). The hope is that they find their true path and in my experience that comes with space... Even from their parents and/or siblings and best friends.


M: 37 H: 36
M: 13 T: 18
D: 7
Bomb: 6/30/14
Separation: 8/11/14

Be strong enough to let go and wise enough to wait for what you deserve.
Re: Card29 VII [Re: Ss06] #2512714
12/02/14 04:24 AM
12/02/14 04:24 AM
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I have missed some of your sitch, but not once have I head anyone saying telling a WAS they wanted to make things work was a positive step.

-it is pursuing and drives them away
-it allows them to keep you as a plan B and avoid some of the consequences of their actions
-it can make you look weak/needy/unattractive to chase
-if there is a debate about whether or not R is possible, if you take the side of "it is" you force her to take the side of "it isn't".
-she knows she still has you and can keep punishing you for the pain you've caused her

Bottom line, if a WAS wants the M to work they will let you know. No M failed to be saved because the LBS didn't pursue.

Not only wouldn't I bring it up, I'd recommend mentally preparing some responses for if she temperature checks you. HINT: if she starts to talk about chances of R, she isn't ready to recommit. She is testing to see if she still has you. Don't let her know you are standing by the M.

This is what I've read here for 6 months with 100% consistency. Good luck!


Me:38 XW:38
T:11 years M:8 years
Kids: S14, D11, D7
BD/Move out day: 6/17/14, D final Dec 15
Re: Card29 VII [Re: Zues126] #2512733
12/02/14 06:45 AM
12/02/14 06:45 AM
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Calibri, I never mind someone talking about their sitch on my threads! I didn't get a chance to start the book tonight (it's 1:40 am and I just finished dishes and laundry...it's been a crazy day). From what I've learned before, though, the majority of the fight is within the depressed person.

Zues and Ss, I know you're probably right. Sometimes I need to lob a bad idea out to you guys, even though at my heart I know it's a bad idea, because I don't truly believe it's bad until I hear other perspectives on it. Pursuit hasn't worked in the past for me, no reason to believe it will in the future. And as much as I tried to find a way around it, this idea is 100% pursuit.


Me 30, STBX 30
D3
M 8 years
BD 6/3/14
S 7/26/14
Off-and-on. PA since BD. Possibly "off" since Winter 2015?
Light Switch/I'm Over Her 12/31/14
D finalized 1/10/16
Re: Card29 VII [Re: Card29] #2512735
12/02/14 07:36 AM
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Ss, I felt something you said yesterday, about just really needing WAS here sometimes. For you it was about your D7. For me, it was being thrown through a gauntlet of hoops with our home inspection. There was a moment yesterday where it looked like we'd actually lost this buyer, our first prospective one in 3 months on the market. I was just really down after fighting so hard, and over the previous 9 years, we would have shared the pain together, met for lunch on a workday, talked about something besides work or whatever was bothering us, etc. I exchanged some texts with her today, but they were just informative, updates. Not the same thing. Most of the time nowadays, I am truly fine on my own, but every once in a while there is still a gaping hole

I was thinking about my moment of weakness on our drive back to town on Sunday, when I half-hugged her. I think what led to it was a thought about something that happened exactly one year ago, on the same road. We were driving back from Thanksgiving at her mother's, same day of the week (Sunday after Thanksgiving). We got sleepy little D1 tucked into her car seat, night had just settled in, and the first flurries of the year started falling. We put on a Bing Crosby Christmas album, we smiled at each other, WAW curled over the console and held my hand, and we drove home. I still remembered the exit we passed when we started Bing Crosby, so when we passed it this past Sunday, it forced me into a flashback and yet another "I can't believe this last year really happened" thought. I forgot to thought-dodge, which led to the spiral.

Somehow, I didn't remember the end of that drive last year...us hitting a coyote and getting stranded 1 hour from home at 1:00 am (busted radiator)! I just remembered that as I was typing out that last paragraph lol

Last edited by Card29; 12/02/14 07:38 AM.

Me 30, STBX 30
D3
M 8 years
BD 6/3/14
S 7/26/14
Off-and-on. PA since BD. Possibly "off" since Winter 2015?
Light Switch/I'm Over Her 12/31/14
D finalized 1/10/16
Re: Card29 VII [Re: Card29] #2514395
12/06/14 01:39 AM
12/06/14 01:39 AM
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I was looking through emails from last December looking for a file, and I found several emails from WAW from when I was on a business trip to Europe. First time I'd ever been away from her that long. She said several times how much she missed me, how she wished she was with me, how i was her favorite person in the world. It's not making me go crazy one way or the other like it would have a couple of months ago, it just makes me smile knowing I'm not crazy or imagining that we were in a fantastic place a year ago. Who knows if we'll ever get back to that, but it reminds me of MWD's words: believe none of what you hear and half of what you see. In this case, the words I don't believe are "I haven't loved you in a long, long time" (I haven't heard those words since July, though).

Hope everyone is having a good night. I'm enjoying the warmth of my living room while it's wet and nasty outside.

One current note about WAW: today she texted me a picture of herself in clothes she just got from her mom, which actually fit her new slim figure. Her note: "My mom gave me some pants and skirts when I was there. Workin it." I just said, ":) you look great."

I've been sneaking in compliments about her figure and her motherhood (her #1 insecurity) for a few weeks now, always prompted by an opportunity she gives me.


Me 30, STBX 30
D3
M 8 years
BD 6/3/14
S 7/26/14
Off-and-on. PA since BD. Possibly "off" since Winter 2015?
Light Switch/I'm Over Her 12/31/14
D finalized 1/10/16
Re: Card29 VII [Re: Card29] #2515059
12/08/14 02:18 PM
12/08/14 02:18 PM
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On Ss06's thread (#9), we talked about her stages of PMA. I outlined them like this:

Stage 1: Sad, resentful

Stage 2: Slow build up to PMA

Stage 3: Healthy PMA (including believing that WAH is a fool to file)

Stage 4: PMA + Mindreading/assuming/daydreaming

Stage 5: You notice cracks in your dream

Stage 6: Crash to Stage 1

Then I realized over the weekend that I go through the exact same stages. I had a great PMA for a week or two. Then yesterday, WAW was texting me a lot. Told me "sorry, I'm not going to make it to church" (we haven't met there together in a couple of months, at least...). Told me she was feeling sick, was laying down, just woke up, "how are you?", etc. I saw all of that as positive signs because there was no necessary reason for her to contact me. I had D2 until this morning. Stage 4, here I come! Then BAM, Stage 5. It turns out she thought she was scheduled to get D2 yesterday, so she was contacting me to let me know she couldn't take her in the morning, then she couldn't in the afternoon because she was laying down, then she asked how I was doing to make sure I was okay with D2 for the night. Blah, Stage 1. I quickly made progress through a lot of Stage 2, though. Watching the old How the Grinch Stole Christmas with D2 for the first time (after reading her the book a couple of times) helped tremendously.


Me 30, STBX 30
D3
M 8 years
BD 6/3/14
S 7/26/14
Off-and-on. PA since BD. Possibly "off" since Winter 2015?
Light Switch/I'm Over Her 12/31/14
D finalized 1/10/16
Re: Card29 VII [Re: Card29] #2515392
12/09/14 04:42 AM
12/09/14 04:42 AM
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I get it, Card, you know I do!

Here's my theoretical fix.

It comes down to "you're already dead". I forget who said it first... Starsky, I think but it's based on one of the hard-core, die-hard soldiers in Band of Brothers when asked how he's not taken down by the horror of war and how he goes into each situation grounded, solid and without doubt... It's because he sees himself as already dead. If you're dead (divorced), you can't be killed. Live that way and everything falls into place.

So, how woukd you live if you were already divorced? Let's face it, that old marriage is G.O.N.E. OVER. There's no revving it at this point. You can only hope for a new marriage... With the same woman. But since you can't predict the future and you can only control you...

Then...
You're already dead.

Be the man who lives after he has already decided he is dead. You can't be killed, Card.

Go into each day living as if you're already divorced. Face that reality.

I'll admit, because I'm so good at preparing for the worst, I sometimes will allow the feeling of him saying, after all this time, "i still want a divorce, it's what's best for me". I just sit and imagine the feelings of that rake over. It's alarming really. I start to sweat, hyperventilate, panic, cry, worry... But I'll admit, it's better now than when I imagined that reality 5 months ago.

We have the power to change our stages. We can do it together.

How about this:

STAGE 1: sad, scared, resentful

STAGE 2: slow build to PMA

STAGE 3: healthy PMA with a grounded understanding that you're already dead, your marriage is put away, like way up in the attic... Maybe even at an off-site storage facility.

STAGE 4: posting, journaling, reaching out, positive self talk, encouraging others (this helps me say things to lift others up that I actually need to hear myself, much like this very post!!!)

STAGE 5: daydream about YOU, your life with D, things you want to maintain about you (things you like and want to foster and cultivate)

STAGE 6: crash to stage 1.

The trick, I think, is to realize your natural trends and alter them with purpose and consciousness.

Nothing about this journey becomes routine, I'm finding. It takes being awake and conscious all the time, lest you trip onto a hole and can't get out... And often we put ourselves into that hole because of our thinking.

The mind is a powerful thing but I do know this: thoughts create but daydreaming is not thinking. Stay grounded on your path. Watch out for snakes, holes but don't forget to notice the flowers, too. wink

Last edited by Ss06; 12/09/14 04:44 AM.

M: 37 H: 36
M: 13 T: 18
D: 7
Bomb: 6/30/14
Separation: 8/11/14

Be strong enough to let go and wise enough to wait for what you deserve.
Re: Card29 VII [Re: Ss06] #2515705
12/10/14 01:22 AM
12/10/14 01:22 AM
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Thanks for the awesome words, Ss. You've grown so much since I first saw you on here.

I don't think I've really honestly considered myself dead yet. I know the old marriage is over, I just haven't conceded that last step. And yes, I know that it doesn't mean to give up on a future with W, but I still haven't went there 100%. I have considered that moment, of course. Sometimes I feel anger, other times (when I'm feeling really good about myself and my future) I feel peace.

I also agree and am still surprised that there is no routine in this journey, even with the cycles. Every one feels different. There's no doubt I feel much better than I did over the summer or early fall, but that doesn't mean I don't have times of pure misery anymore.

Today is WAW's 30th bday. I chatted with her about it a bit last night. She's out to dinner with friends tonight. I hate the fact that I'm not celebrating with her. I was her partner, best friend, supporter, cheerleader for all of her 20's, 100x's more than anyone else in her life. To this day I have moments when I think I'm about to wake up from a dream. Six months after BD!


Me 30, STBX 30
D3
M 8 years
BD 6/3/14
S 7/26/14
Off-and-on. PA since BD. Possibly "off" since Winter 2015?
Light Switch/I'm Over Her 12/31/14
D finalized 1/10/16
Re: Card29 VII [Re: Card29] #2515944
12/10/14 05:44 PM
12/10/14 05:44 PM
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So I'm having dinner tonight at WAW's to talk about the details of the house sale, final moving, cancelling services for the house, splitting finances, etc. She also put on the agenda "discuss future plans". Not sure what that means but I have a sinking feeling about it. She has given no indication lately that she is leaning towards the M. And today I was telling her about my aunt's recent S from her H (married only a year), and I said it is "getting uggggly". She said, "Can we not let that be us?" which I mindread (yes, I know) to mean, "Can we not let that be us as we begin the D process?"

Trying to let go of those fears and get through the day

Last edited by Card29; 12/10/14 05:45 PM.

Me 30, STBX 30
D3
M 8 years
BD 6/3/14
S 7/26/14
Off-and-on. PA since BD. Possibly "off" since Winter 2015?
Light Switch/I'm Over Her 12/31/14
D finalized 1/10/16
Re: Card29 VII [Re: Card29] #2516119
12/11/14 01:06 AM
12/11/14 01:06 AM
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At WAW's apt right now. She's doing something on the computer with student loans. We haven't talked about "future plans" yet but I'm fearing the worst


Me 30, STBX 30
D3
M 8 years
BD 6/3/14
S 7/26/14
Off-and-on. PA since BD. Possibly "off" since Winter 2015?
Light Switch/I'm Over Her 12/31/14
D finalized 1/10/16
Re: Card29 VII [Re: Card29] #2516121
12/11/14 01:15 AM
12/11/14 01:15 AM
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Wishing you the best

Try to remain calm. Remember you can't change her mind only she can but your actions can help or hinder you.

If future plans means her bringing up D.. She's expecting you to react a certain way. Why not flip the coin and be cool calm and collected, 'W you know this is not what I want but I will not get in the way of you finding your way to being happy'


M 31 H 34
S 6 S 9
BD 2/14 Piecing 8/14
Re: Card29 VII [Re: T384] #2516137
12/11/14 02:06 AM
12/11/14 02:06 AM
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She wants a divorce


Me 30, STBX 30
D3
M 8 years
BD 6/3/14
S 7/26/14
Off-and-on. PA since BD. Possibly "off" since Winter 2015?
Light Switch/I'm Over Her 12/31/14
D finalized 1/10/16
Re: Card29 VII [Re: Card29] #2516139
12/11/14 02:11 AM
12/11/14 02:11 AM
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(((((Card))))))

This doesn't alter your path.

Continue to be the Card you are learning to be. Make yourself proud.

Your D is watching and learning about the future love of her life through you, your actions and reactions.

This doesn't define you.


M: 37 H: 36
M: 13 T: 18
D: 7
Bomb: 6/30/14
Separation: 8/11/14

Be strong enough to let go and wise enough to wait for what you deserve.
Re: Card29 VII [Re: Ss06] #2516141
12/11/14 02:13 AM
12/11/14 02:13 AM
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Sorry man. Just keep going and give her what she wants with grace. Whatever happens you'll be better off.


Me: 44
W: 45
S: 11
Married: 15
Together: 18
BD: 9/29/2014
OM discovered: 10/16/2014
I left her behind: 12/14/2014
Re: Card29 VII [Re: HPoirot] #2516144
12/11/14 02:25 AM
12/11/14 02:25 AM
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I'm sorry Card

Keep improving you... I know there are no words to make it better right now but we are all here for you no matter what.


M 31 H 34
S 6 S 9
BD 2/14 Piecing 8/14
Re: Card29 VII [Re: T384] #2516149
12/11/14 02:38 AM
12/11/14 02:38 AM
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I know I should have considered myself "dead" months ago, and I always knew our old M was dead one way or the other, but I never really let go so this is cutting so deep. God I can't imagine waking up tomorrow. At least right now I'm tired with a beer (about to be 2) in me, with the hopeful escape of sleep in my near future. Tomorrow morning is going to be the worst case of "tell me that was all just a dream" of my entire life. My best friend for nearly all of my 20's just officially gave up, and I never knew anything was wrong until she was walking out the f'ng door. That is so unfair. Haha life's not fair though, right?

as far as how I handled it tonight, whatever, it could have been better. A little pleading before she dropped the hammer, one or two guilt trips for her afterwards that I will regret but don't yet. No hostility, but I also didn't reassure her fear of things getting nasty between us (they won't, but I just didn't feel like coddling her).


Me 30, STBX 30
D3
M 8 years
BD 6/3/14
S 7/26/14
Off-and-on. PA since BD. Possibly "off" since Winter 2015?
Light Switch/I'm Over Her 12/31/14
D finalized 1/10/16
Re: Card29 VII [Re: Card29] #2516208
12/11/14 08:12 AM
12/11/14 08:12 AM
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Posts: 414
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Sorry Card.
Trust me I feel your pain. Just give yourD all the love you had for the W. I wish I could tell you it gets better, but I'm still stuck myself. But I'll pray for u


M40 XW35
M11 T15
S9 D5
Bomb 6/3/14
Papers del 10/3/14
D final 12/5/14

I wish I could love you and make you believe it
'Cause that's all you ever wanted
From me

Re: Card29 VII [Re: bravo61] #2516222
12/11/14 10:41 AM
12/11/14 10:41 AM
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I'm sorry. I hope you got some sleep last night.


Me42, H40
D12, S8, S7
A revealed: 7/13
Sep 4/14; Agreed to D 1/15

She believed she could, so she did.
Re: Card29 VII [Re: Maybell] #2516224
12/11/14 11:03 AM
12/11/14 11:03 AM
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gan Offline
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Oh Card. I'm so sorry. Be kind to yourself. Hugs to you.


H 37 Me 36
Together 15 years
Married 5 years
No kids
BD Apr 2014
H moved out 2 Jun 2014
Re: Card29 VII [Re: gan] #2516252
12/11/14 01:11 PM
12/11/14 01:11 PM
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Card, I'm sorry. I hope you can start to find your way through this today. Hugs.



"Don't look back, you aren't going that way"
Re: Card29 VII [Re: SunnyB] #2516260
12/11/14 01:36 PM
12/11/14 01:36 PM
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I slept last night. I don't think it's totally set in yet. I don't think it ever did because I always fiercely held on to hope for a new M. I still know it's theoretically a possibility in the future, but I don't think I want to torture myself with more hope and despair


Me 30, STBX 30
D3
M 8 years
BD 6/3/14
S 7/26/14
Off-and-on. PA since BD. Possibly "off" since Winter 2015?
Light Switch/I'm Over Her 12/31/14
D finalized 1/10/16
Re: Card29 VII [Re: Card29] #2516268
12/11/14 01:58 PM
12/11/14 01:58 PM
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Mozza Offline
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Card29, I'm really sorry for you. What a difficult thing to hear. It's just another step on the path you were already on. Some people have gone through it, others have not. It's now your choice how you approach it. The two choices are very similar: you let go, let her find her way, you detach and drop the rope, and let time do its thing for both of you. Focus on yourself. You'll find the strength.


M39 D6 D3 (at S)
S 2014-09
D 2016-09

"You can't start a fire sitting around, crying over a broken heart" - Bruce Springsteen.
Re: Card29 VII [Re: Mozza] #2516304
12/11/14 03:42 PM
12/11/14 03:42 PM
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Posts: 898
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I have D2 Christmas Eve and Christmas morning/day. WAW wants me to bring her over to her apt first thing in the morning so we can have Christmas together. She says, "Don't you think she should have Christmas morning with her parents?" No s***, she should. She should for the next 16 years! Those are my thoughts. What should I actually say to that. Why does she say she wants what's best for D2 when she has zero interest in even trying at what is actually best for D2?

Last edited by Card29; 12/11/14 03:42 PM.

Me 30, STBX 30
D3
M 8 years
BD 6/3/14
S 7/26/14
Off-and-on. PA since BD. Possibly "off" since Winter 2015?
Light Switch/I'm Over Her 12/31/14
D finalized 1/10/16
Re: Card29 VII [Re: Card29] #2516306
12/11/14 03:47 PM
12/11/14 03:47 PM
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 471
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Card: I'm sorry to hear your W has decided upon this. You can still make your positive 180s and GAL for yourself and your daughter. It ain't over until it's over.


ME: 38
BF: 40
T: 10y, no kids, no M (by choice)
BD: 7/14/14, BF admits to PA, wants out, lies about new R.
10/1/14: I move out, BF lies about move in with OW
12/4/14: OW confronted, reveals all the lies
Re: Card29 VII [Re: Little] #2516315
12/11/14 04:18 PM
12/11/14 04:18 PM
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Posts: 898
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I've been encouraged by friends to "not give up hope yet", but I really fear going down the hope route again. She sounds gone


Me 30, STBX 30
D3
M 8 years
BD 6/3/14
S 7/26/14
Off-and-on. PA since BD. Possibly "off" since Winter 2015?
Light Switch/I'm Over Her 12/31/14
D finalized 1/10/16
Re: Card29 VII [Re: Card29] #2516320
12/11/14 04:45 PM
12/11/14 04:45 PM
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Posts: 1,680
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Card -

Don't let hope stop you from moving forward but you can still have hope. I felt pretty hopeless but things change every day. Hugs


M 31 H 34
S 6 S 9
BD 2/14 Piecing 8/14
Re: Card29 VII [Re: T384] #2516349
12/11/14 06:04 PM
12/11/14 06:04 PM
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Any advice out there for how to handle the Christmas thing? Of course I want D2 to have Christmas morning with her mom and dad, but, what, are we supposed to wake up and drive to the other person's house first thing in the morning in years that neither of us are living with an SO? Maybe I'm thinking too far ahead.

And I don't think D2 really cares this year...I mean, she's two. She's going to be excited about presents. She doesn't understand the tradition yet. I just want to tell WAW, "This is what you're giving up."

I still can't believe she can't make a conscious decision to try. Look at the wealth of resources and expertise out there, all of which says our problems are fixable. Look at the rewards for fixing them. Realize that you have a H who is very patient and non-controlling. I understand the emotions, but just put your faith in something other than your emotions and grab the hand of the people who have been through it and who help people through it. Trust something other than your own emotions.


...had to get that out somewhere. Hopeless to try to actually convince her of that.


Me 30, STBX 30
D3
M 8 years
BD 6/3/14
S 7/26/14
Off-and-on. PA since BD. Possibly "off" since Winter 2015?
Light Switch/I'm Over Her 12/31/14
D finalized 1/10/16
Re: Card29 VII [Re: Card29] #2516389
12/11/14 07:02 PM
12/11/14 07:02 PM
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Posts: 2,219
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rd500 Offline
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Hi card. Sorry your so down. At the moment your W wants to be away from you. A alot of us are in the same boat. It's mind bending trying to understand why but it is what it is I completely agree about the resources available but that's not what she wants.

Keep on becoming the best person you can be for you and your D. Hopefully your W will see what see is losing but she has to see it. You can't show her.

I'm in a similar place to you and it's crap but it can't last forever We will be happy again one day no matter what happens

Take care Re

Re: Card29 VII [Re: rd500] #2516460
12/11/14 09:21 PM
12/11/14 09:21 PM
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I have to voice my disagreement with a sentiment that some people here seem to share. It seems that some think one of our goals should be to become independently happy apart from anyone else, from relying on anyone else. I do agree that we should avoid codependency, but I also believe our purpose is to love and be loved. I re-watched Brene Brown's Power of Vulnerability speech today. Every second of those 20 minutes resonates with me. And I don't get the message of "make yourself happy and you'll be strong and nearly invincible" from it. There is definitely an element of independence in her talk, because being vulnerable means believing from the outset, without the need of confirmation from others, that you are worthy of love even with your flaws vulnerably exposed.

I am naturally an independently happy person. This caused me to believe I did't need others to feel happiness. Now I'm in the darkest era of my life and I'm realizing the flaws in my thinking. I want to warn others because I WAS fiercely independent during our M, and I think it clouded my vision within our M (how do I not know my W is so unhappy that she is considering leaving?). I got so used to providing my own happiness and just accepting any love W showed me as a bonus that I was fine going months without intimacy, without intimate conversation, without fun activities, without quality time. I was fine simply coexisting because I was providing my own happiness, completely ignorant of her own emotional starvation. And I don't believe it is healthy to provide your own happiness, fulfill your spouses needs, and not expect/require/rely on the same fulfillment from your spouse. That is exactly what I did and it ended up aiding in the destruction of my M, even though I was very, very happy. I thought that happiness came from within me and from my faith in God, but now that I've lost W, I realize in hindsight that much of it really did come from her. From the belief that she loved me, regardless of my flaws.

I know many on this board can't expect that return from their S or SO right now due to the nature of their current R. This is just a general warning and piece of advice, whether you can use it now or not in your primary R. I also know that I'm not contending with the consensus of the board, or anything. I've just seen this sentiment around and wanted to give my take on it.

This is a stream of consciousness, so I hope it makes sense.

Last edited by Card29; 12/11/14 09:24 PM.

Me 30, STBX 30
D3
M 8 years
BD 6/3/14
S 7/26/14
Off-and-on. PA since BD. Possibly "off" since Winter 2015?
Light Switch/I'm Over Her 12/31/14
D finalized 1/10/16
Re: Card29 VII [Re: Card29] #2516616
12/12/14 12:43 PM
12/12/14 12:43 PM
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Posts: 898
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Card29 Offline OP
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Very depressing rant here, skip if you're not in the mood to read anything like that.

Not enjoying life this morning. It's not so much about my W (who is apparently actively looking for dates. She said she has been "talking to people" but not really dating anyone, whatever that means). That still hurts, but it's more about finally meeting the reality of my lifelong dream crumbling. Ever since I was a kid, I wanted a wife and family, and divorce was pretty much the worst thing in the world to me. I knew I would NEVER get a divorce and I would work through anything that ever happened. I even knew I would want to stay married through an affair if that happened. Instead I was hit upside the head with a 2x4, and before I knew what happened, my W was gone, 1/2 of my D2's childhood was taken from me, and my prospects for anymore kids (I always wanted 3 or 4) were greatly diminished. Let's see, IF things go "smoothly", I will be divorced by the summer, then I'll need at least a year, maybe two, to begin seriously dating again. Then IF I've met the right girl, I would need to date for at least a couple of years to be sure I wanted to marry her, because God knows I don't need to go through this again. Then we would probably wait at least a year or two to get pregnant. That puts me in me mid-to-late 30's. That's assuming it doesn't take me years to find the right mate, which many people do.

To be honest, this has been my dream for so long (since I was 10 or 12 years old), I don't currently see the point in anything. I failed at my primary dream, I never really had major career aspirations, my primary hobbies haven't been fulfilling to me in at least a couple of years, my closest friend lives 3,000 miles away, I haven't seen him in 2 years and I'll almost certainly never live near him again (he moved back to the west coast with his family, where they were from, after he finished seminary here).

I have tons of family around me, but they're not the greatest support network. For one thing, almost none of them share the same sacred view of marriage that I do. All of my aunts and uncles have been divorced, several of my cousins have. And many of them never really loved WAW, because they knew she didn't treat me very well (especially a few years ago, when I fell out of love with her, if you go back and read my story). I'm about to hand over the keys of my dream house and move into my mom's basement, which is already crammed with my sister's furniture (she is traveling for her career right now). I thought I might stay at my mom's house for a year or so and save money, but I don't think I'm going to last that long.

I know I'm in the midst of this crisis and I'll probably feel better someday, but right now I really don't see the point in all of this. I feel like my life is already over, and although I know I won't be in this amount of pain for the rest of my life, it's like I'm just waiting for everything to be over. No, I'm not suicidal or anything, and yes I know I probably won't feel like this forever. I'm just hating life this morning. I probably need to finally see an IC to help me deal with my life dream falling apart, right?


Me 30, STBX 30
D3
M 8 years
BD 6/3/14
S 7/26/14
Off-and-on. PA since BD. Possibly "off" since Winter 2015?
Light Switch/I'm Over Her 12/31/14
D finalized 1/10/16
Re: Card29 VII [Re: Card29] #2516622
12/12/14 01:50 PM
12/12/14 01:50 PM
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Card, as someone who is about to turn 50, your timeline and analysis that your life is basically going to be over by mid-30s made me cringe smile. I had my first baby at 30, my second at 33, my third at 37. I have friends who had kids up into their 40s. I understand what you are saying, that your life is not going according to the schedule you originally thought, and that's disappointing and frustrating, you see your plans and dreams slipping away. But you are very young yet, there's a lot of time for something good to happen. Just relax and let it.



"Don't look back, you aren't going that way"
Re: Card29 VII [Re: Card29] #2516623
12/12/14 01:52 PM
12/12/14 01:52 PM
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 414
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bravo61 Offline
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Card I feel exactly how you feel. I don't know that it gets better but supposedly it does. I'll be praying for you.


M40 XW35
M11 T15
S9 D5
Bomb 6/3/14
Papers del 10/3/14
D final 12/5/14

I wish I could love you and make you believe it
'Cause that's all you ever wanted
From me

Re: Card29 VII [Re: Card29] #2516634
12/12/14 02:15 PM
12/12/14 02:15 PM
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Originally Posted By: Card29
Any advice out there for how to handle the Christmas thing? Of course I want D2 to have Christmas morning with her mom and dad, but, what, are we supposed to wake up and drive to the other person's house first thing in the morning in years that neither of us are living with an SO? Maybe I'm thinking too far ahead.


Yes, you are thinking too far ahead. Decide what you want to do this year, then you have a whole year to figure out the next one. One step at a time.



"Don't look back, you aren't going that way"
Re: Card29 VII [Re: bravo61] #2516635
12/12/14 02:19 PM
12/12/14 02:19 PM
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Mozza Offline
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Card29: It's good that you wrote this. Get it off your chest. Your feelings are real and a lot of us are going through the same thing. Divorce is rare in my family and I'm very loyal, so I never imagined being the-separated-one. I get it.

But it's also good that you wrote this because you'll look back at it in a few years and smile. It's a feeling that will be very short-lived. Every day, you'll get further away from that moment and into another one. Think of where you were 10 years ago, just before you got together with W. Now look ahead: there are 5 of these decades ahead of you. How many times will your life change? It will not be a lesser version of today; it will be a completely different life.


M39 D6 D3 (at S)
S 2014-09
D 2016-09

"You can't start a fire sitting around, crying over a broken heart" - Bruce Springsteen.
Re: Card29 VII [Re: bravo61] #2516649
12/12/14 02:46 PM
12/12/14 02:46 PM
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I think my anxiety is worsened by the fact that most men in my family (especially on my dad's side) typically don't live past 60, even though none of them smoke. I have a 50% chance of having polycystic kidneys, and heart problems run in our family. My dad and uncle died two years ago in their mid-50's from natural causes. Grandpa died early. I've always been aware of this, never really fearful of it. But I always wanted to have my kids young so I could see as much of their life as possible. I was already anxious by not having my first until I was 27 (I wanted to when we were first married, but it took WAW 5 years after marriage to finally agree). But then we had a beautiful daughter, and I calmed down, thinking everything was going to work out like I dreamed. The peak of my dream was about 11 months ago...W still in love with me (or so I thought), pregnant with #2, us settling in as parents. Everything was beautiful, it was the happiest I've ever been. Miscarriage, separation, W dating around now, upcoming divorce, 1/2 of my daughter's childhood taken from me, so I have crashed from the happiest period of my life to by far the least happy. And I really don't know how to deal with this pain because I've never been unhappy for extended periods of time. Even when my dad died, I processed it quicker than normal because he had been in bad health for a decade. He lived years longer than any doctor thought he would. So when he died, I had already pre-processed a lot of it. I'd already been through all five stages of grief beforehand. Of course I had to go back through them again when it became apparent that it was time, but it was much quicker than if someone suddenly lost their parent at that age. I was in pain for maybe a month, although of course I still miss him from time to time.

But obviously my plan was not God's plan, and I should be happy with what I have, not unhappy with what I don't get. I know that in my brain, I just can't feel it yet. And I am absolutely starved for real connection with people now. I haven't had a really close friend in a few years. WAW was my only real companion. I'm not craving a romantic relationship, I'm craving real friendship and community. I love my mom and sisters, but my mom is primarily focused on D2, my middle sister (who also still lives at home) depresses me (she is very judgmental, isolated, judgmental, no close friends anymore that I know of, has never dated even though she's pretty), and my youngest sister (who is awesome) is currently living on the other side of the country.

Another bit of anxiety I have with living with my mom is the fact that I will be even less of a dad for D2. I feel like I've already been halved once with WAW moving out, now I've realized that moving in with D2's very involved grandma will mean I'm never ever alone with her, especially during the winter when it's harder to take her outside. That is temporary, of course, and will be over when I move out on my own. Just another thing causing me grief right now.


Me 30, STBX 30
D3
M 8 years
BD 6/3/14
S 7/26/14
Off-and-on. PA since BD. Possibly "off" since Winter 2015?
Light Switch/I'm Over Her 12/31/14
D finalized 1/10/16
Re: Card29 VII [Re: SunnyB] #2516757
12/12/14 07:54 PM
12/12/14 07:54 PM
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 1,807
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HeavyD Offline
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Dear Card

My heart broke reading your post. It really did and partly because I am in the same boat. My whole life's dream has been to be married (to my soul mate) and have children. I thought that was what I was doing too. Again, same situation 2x4 upside my head and now I am dealing with a WAW who claims to have been so desperately unhappy for years and is having an affair. I still don't know what happened but have to deal with the nightmare.

It's a terribly bitter pill, and yes, I have thought it would be easier, way easier to just check out. There would at least be an end to the pain and rejection, right? The truth is we have to own this terrible time in our life, and go through the pain. Why? Because we have kids who need us. We have screwed up partners who have made really bad choices which make us all suffer but still we have to be there for our kids.

I really do believe that God has a plan for each of us and even if we can't see it now, we have to keep the faith and believe that are best days are ahead of us, not behind us.

You are not a failure, just one part of your life is not working out as you planned, try to focus on other parts that are working. I am sure you are a great Dad and you want that to continue. Make your half of your daughters time the best part of her life!

Hold on and I will be virtually holding your hand.


Was made a better person by DB'ers
Re: Card29 VII [Re: HeavyD] #2516760
12/12/14 08:03 PM
12/12/14 08:03 PM
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Posts: 1,807
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Would you like to share your email and we can keep each other supported off line?


Was made a better person by DB'ers
Re: Card29 VII [Re: SunnyB] #2516761
12/12/14 08:11 PM
12/12/14 08:11 PM
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Card- I don't know if this will provide you some solace. But there are so many here who feel the exactly same way. Myself included. IC is a good idea. It has helped greatly. Just for her to say that your line of thinking is not wrong and it is okay to feel that way. Keep going. Things have to get better. They can't get any worse right?


M:35 W 31
D's:6, 4 & 2
T:9 M:7
ILYBNILWY- Mar/14
DP Served Dec.17/14

Re: Card29 VII [Re: zed] #2516819
12/12/14 10:48 PM
12/12/14 10:48 PM
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Posts: 3,319
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Card, thought I'd stop by as we have a common friend in SS.

First of all, I am so sorry for your pain. I know it hurts deeply.

I always say you feel how you do. There is no right or wrong feeling.

So, take some time to digest all of this. Get it out. Cry, scream, pray...if you are so inclined.

Just a couple of things, though. Be sure to only own your stuff. There are two people in a marriage. She didnt have to make the choice she did.

You did the best you could in the marriage with the tools and knowledge you had at the time. Had you known better, you would have done better.

It was important that I knew whatever I did or didnt do
was never with the intent to cause harm to my h or my marriage. That mattered to me.

I saw what you wrote about happiness. Without getting into it too much, I just want to say this. Happiness is fleeting. It comes and goes. The trick is to find joy in life. If we are looking to someone else to provide happiness for us, what a terrible burden that is to put on them.

But if we find joy within us, everything else is a bonus. We want someone to share the joy with and enhance our lives.

I know that you feel that your dream has been shattered. I get that. The thing about life is that it rarely goes as we think it will. It will be different that what you hoped. But different doesnt have to mean bad.

So, try not to get ahead of yourself here. The first thing you need to do is to forgive yourself. That is really important. Then forgive her.

That gets you to acceptance. Thats where you need to be. Doesnt mean you have to like it, but, you do need to learn to accept what is in this moment

You know, C, I believe there is always hope until we decide there isnt.

Having hope doesnt mean that you stop living your life. It doesnt mean that you are waiting for it to change. It just means that you are not ready to completely shut the door on the possibilities.

You may get to that place one day. You arent there now.

You dont have to decide anything today.

This is going to hurt. There isnt anyway around that. But you will not always feel the way you do right now.

I see a lot of strength in you, Card.

Take this one day at a time. One moment if you need to.

No one knows what the future holds. Except that it holds you.

You will be ok. I know you know that.

Try really hard not to go back to places you have already worked through, ya know?

I get that trying to understand the whys and hows make you think that you will feel better knowing them. The truth is that you wont really ever know because they are her feelings and thoughts.

All of this is hard and it's heartbreaking. But it is also so powerful.

When we begin to understand that we have control over our part of the journey - whether we quit or not, whether we grow or not, whether we accept or not, man, what power we have. What an opportunity we have, what great lessons we can learn.

When it gets really tough, take some time, back away, regroup, find some peace in whatever way you can at that moment.

When you are ready, get back on your path. Dig deep, find your footing, stand strong.

You have power in all this.

You have choices you can make. You can choose how to behave, what to feel, how to love.

I will tell you this. No matter what happens, you will not regret that you stood if you do the work.

You will not regret that you were someone who loved so much you were willing to let her go.

When you look back at this time, you will see that you acted with dignity and courage and strength. That matters, C.

Remember to be kind to yourself and to believe that this was a journey you were meant to go on.

You will get through this.

Re: Card29 VII [Re: uRworthy] #2516830
12/13/14 12:01 AM
12/13/14 12:01 AM
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Card -

I just wanted to stop by and empathize with what you're feeling and going through. I was there not too long ago. There is light at the end of the tunnel. Pick yourself up and go do something for you. As much as you don't want to you have to keep yourself out of the dark place that your mind wants to take you to.

We're all here for you


M 31 H 34
S 6 S 9
BD 2/14 Piecing 8/14
Re: Card29 VII [Re: T384] #2517017
12/13/14 07:05 PM
12/13/14 07:05 PM
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It means a lot for you guys to spend the time leaving me good words. I know things will get better. I know that in my brain but I don't believe it right now


Me 30, STBX 30
D3
M 8 years
BD 6/3/14
S 7/26/14
Off-and-on. PA since BD. Possibly "off" since Winter 2015?
Light Switch/I'm Over Her 12/31/14
D finalized 1/10/16
Re: Card29 VII [Re: Card29] #2517072
12/14/14 01:14 AM
12/14/14 01:14 AM
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 3,319
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uRworthy Offline
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Hey Card. Perfectly understand to feel as you do. Take your time in working through this.

But know this...I have been around here a long time and I know that you will be ok. I have not one doubt.

This really isnt new information, right? She wanted a divorce. So, your path is the same.

Your daughter needs her daddy. She needs him to be her rock, her touchstone because her mommy is kinda lost right now.

You will get through this. Your life may be different, but, you get to make it yours.

Re: Card29 VII [Re: uRworthy] #2517324
12/15/14 03:37 AM
12/15/14 03:37 AM
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Long post but some really important convos between WAW and me today.

Well today was interesting and exhausting. Today was my big move day, moving of the big stuff out of the house. I had a few friends helping throughout the day, but WAW was there the whole time. She offered to help. I debated on accepting it, but a lot of the stuff she is keeping, so we needed to move it to her apt anyway. Yeah, I know, don't help them move. But we already had the uhaul, most of the move was mine, and I just felt "what do I have to lose at this point?"

It was a little awkward at first. Then she found out that a specific girl, let's call her Rachel, from work (along with 2 or 3 guys) were coming to help. I had told WAW stories about rachel for the last couple of years. Like how all of the guys think she's hot and act like teenagers after she leaves the room. To be honest I was never involved with those convos at work. But WAW would always give me a seemingly joking glare anytime Rachel's name would come up. She is the HR admin, so she would always mail out stuff about health insurance, company social events, etc. When WAW would open mail with Rachel's name on the letter inside; she'd joke that my "GF" was writing to me (yeah, those hot 401k letters...). When she found out she was coming today (along with her BF!), she was legitimately jealous and bothered by it. For one, I always thought we were both joking about the Rachel stuff. Secondly...wth??? You just told me you want a divorce and you're encouraging me to date. I flat out told her I was really surprised she cared. So that was the first slightly interesting thing.

throughout the day we had R talks. They were mutually initiated. I asked her what she really wants in life, she said she didn't know. I asked her if she wanted a family, she said yes, but that she wasn't dying to have more kids or anything. I told her about a change of heart I've had relating to a sermon from church a few years ago. The pastor said we should always value our R with our spouse over R's with our children. I never told W, but I disagreed with that. Since BD I've realized how wrong I was. I neglected my M and that is seemingly going to really hurt my D2 in turn (not to mention complete destruction of M). I told WAW about all of that today in the context of the convo.

She also said she wanted to start going to church together again, but in the context of post M. She said it was important for D2 that we do things like together (again, after M). I expressed confusion. She said it was important to do things together as a family. I told her I agreed that being together as a family is a really important, that that's all I want, but didn't go as far as agreeing to post-M normally family activities. I didn't bring it up, but what the heck...if she starts dating someone, what, he's going to sit with us at church too? I really think this is the foggiest area of her mind right now...her biggest fear in all of this is for a nasty post-M relationship between us like her parents had. I've expressed before that I don't want to be friends if we get a D (not that I want to be enemies instead). I don't know why she's so concerned about family activities if she doesn't want to give a try at all towards keeping the actual family together. I did not mention that thought to her.

Later, after we were finished with the portion of the move that required help, WAW and I were riding back to the house to move some smaller things. I asked her if she wanted to talk about anything else. She said no, but a moment later she asked if there was something specifc I wanted to talk about. There was. I confessed the porn addiction I had for our entire M. She knew about my problems in the early years, but she thought Id stopped. I lied to her for years. She was really hurt by that news. It kind of surprised me how much it affected her. I told her I thought what she didn't know wouldn't hurt her, but since BD I've learned exactly how much damage porn can do to an M, especially the intimacy of an M. She said it explained a lot. I told her her that I am in the healthiest sexual place of my life, no porn in the longest time since I first saw it as a teenager. I told her its one of the main reasons why I am so hopeful that things would be different between us. She didn't openly shoot it down. I validated her hurt feelings throughout the rest of the day. We had lots of laughs, we ended up really needing more help but had to do everything ourselves. at the end of the day we were completely exhausted. A couple hours after I last saw her, I texted her to ask how she was feeling (since her back had been sore, etc). She said she was hurting. I asked "about porn?" and she said yes. She said she wished id told her a long time ago, that we could have worked through that (I didn't mention that Id told her many times back in the day, that she reacted with judgment and shaming, which helped lead to my decision to just hide it from her). I validated, expressed deep regret again. She then asked if Id ever had an affair. I told her no, that the only "relationship" I ever had was the very light EA (a couple of flirty comments) last summer which she already knew about. She basically said she didn't know if she believed me and didn't think I'd tell her if I had, then told me good night. I validated her having doubts since I had confessed to such deep, long term lies today. That was the end of the convo.


Me 30, STBX 30
D3
M 8 years
BD 6/3/14
S 7/26/14
Off-and-on. PA since BD. Possibly "off" since Winter 2015?
Light Switch/I'm Over Her 12/31/14
D finalized 1/10/16
Re: Card29 VII [Re: Card29] #2517414
12/15/14 03:07 PM
12/15/14 03:07 PM
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Vapo Offline
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Card,

we have not had a convo yet, but you are one of my watched posters and I often check in on you. I found it funny how a lot of us have great advice when it comes to other people's, and when it comes to our own situations we lack the courage to follow our own advice.

So my suggestion is, if you stepped in someone else's shoes, what would your advice be?

Re: Card29 VII [Re: Vapo] #2517428
12/15/14 03:52 PM
12/15/14 03:52 PM
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Very good points, something I've thought about several times. We're detached from each other's sitches, so we can think more clearly.

Trying to look at my sitch from a 3rd person perspective, I should continue to (try to) detach and talk when she wants to talk. She texted me late last night and we exchanged a few more thoughts, then she texted me again this morning. At the end of the convo today, she thanked me for finally being honest, that if nothing else, she's glad it makes more sense, but that "the basis of how I feel and what I want haven't changed". I asked her to just take her time, that I didn't expect her to change her mind overnight. I expressed my hope for our possibilities, that wasn't bad between us just because that's the way it was, that the roots of all of our problems are fixable. She said she has thought about it for months but will continue to think.

I don't really know what all of this new information will do for her. For now I know I do not want to give up hope. We have had more R talk in the last 24 hours than we had in the previous 6 months, so it's a lot for her to digest. I am praying for her heart to soften.


Me 30, STBX 30
D3
M 8 years
BD 6/3/14
S 7/26/14
Off-and-on. PA since BD. Possibly "off" since Winter 2015?
Light Switch/I'm Over Her 12/31/14
D finalized 1/10/16
Re: Card29 VII [Re: Card29] #2517472
12/15/14 06:08 PM
12/15/14 06:08 PM
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Mozza Offline
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This is a very interesting development. Your honesty might work in your favor. I had not realized your W was unaware of what had happened.

Originally Posted By: Card29
I asked her to just take her time, that I didn't expect her to change her mind overnight. I expressed my hope for our possibilities, that wasn't bad between us just because that's the way it was, that the roots of all of our problems are fixable. She said she has thought about it for months but will continue to think.
You realize this is pursuing, right? The risk is that as soon as she opens up just a little, she'll see you rush in and clams up. And yes, that's rushing in. IMO, it would be better not to show anything when she says those things. Give her the impression (1) that it's safe to open up, that you won't immediately think that she wants to reconcile; (2) that she needs to go further if she wants to make you react.

See the advice of the vets around here: let her come to all these conclusions herself. She knows were you stand VERY WELL. If ever she doubts that you want back together, it will work in your favor, though I think she's months out of thinking so.


M39 D6 D3 (at S)
S 2014-09
D 2016-09

"You can't start a fire sitting around, crying over a broken heart" - Bruce Springsteen.
Re: Card29 VII [Re: Mozza] #2517501
12/15/14 07:41 PM
12/15/14 07:41 PM
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I hear you, Mozza. I do think I overdid it some yesterday, but I felt like it might help that she have some food for thought. I will let her think. She just reiterated to me that she hasn't changed her mind. I'm not discouraged too much by that, though, because I know it will take time for this new information to have a real effect, if it does at all. If she wants to initiate R talk, I'll talk. Otherwise, back to DB-style communication.

Last edited by Card29; 12/15/14 07:47 PM.

Me 30, STBX 30
D3
M 8 years
BD 6/3/14
S 7/26/14
Off-and-on. PA since BD. Possibly "off" since Winter 2015?
Light Switch/I'm Over Her 12/31/14
D finalized 1/10/16
Re: Card29 VII [Re: Card29] #2517627
12/16/14 02:36 AM
12/16/14 02:36 AM
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Card29 Offline OP
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Earlier today, for the first time since BD, she asked me how I think she "failed" as a wife. First she asked me if I thought she was a good wife. I think she was feeling insecure after the porn confession. I told her that she's a wonderful wife, told her about some of my favorite qualities of hers. But then she asked for specifics of things she could have done better. I told her that she took her frustrations out on me for a long time, even ones that had nothing to do with me, and that drove me away for her for a long time. She agreed. I didn't mention anything else, didn't want to pile on at once. Others things include meeting my shortcomings or failures with anger and/or shaming. I think I could have overcome my porn habit a long time ago if she had met me with love on the topic. Instead she just expressed her disgust. I was already ashamed of it. More shame wasn't going to fix it. I also think that's why my accountability groups never helped. Those didn't pull me away from porn with love. They just made me want to avoid even more shame. And eventually, the shame of confessing slip-ups grew larger than the shame of actually looking at porn. So the lies began.

Then I was so ashamed after viewing porn, I didn't feel like I deserved to sleep in bed with my wife, so I would sleep on the couch. That robbed us of our only intimate connection time. We used to talk for hours in bed, no TV, no phones. That disappeared. Then when when we were close, or we did have sex, the intimacy kept dwindling. It turned into "let's get this over with" for her, it turned into "why can't we do this more often??" for me. She told me today she felt violated during sex for much of our marriage, which hurt to hear. not because I forced of pressured her, just because there was no intimacy.

I pray everynight that WAW's heart softens, because I truly believe we can build a new marriage. Look how much I've been able to piece together, and we've barely had more than a couple of convos on the topic. I just imagine what we could do if she actually committed, we were able to go to Retrouvaille or something, go to a good couples counselor. Maybe someday

Tonight was more bitter than sweet. Last night in my house. D2 is with me. It was her first time seeing it without furniture (I have two air mattresses, that's it). She was most confused when we went into her room and her bed was disassembled. She was a little upset. It bothered me because I realized she had slept in her first bed for the last time already (items an infant-through-2 bed, convertible). Eventually I had to leave the room from her and cry for a few seconds. The rest of the night has been good, though. Watched Classic grinch again (she knows the song now), now she's sleeping next to me on one of the air mattresses.


Me 30, STBX 30
D3
M 8 years
BD 6/3/14
S 7/26/14
Off-and-on. PA since BD. Possibly "off" since Winter 2015?
Light Switch/I'm Over Her 12/31/14
D finalized 1/10/16
Re: Card29 VII [Re: Card29] #2517636
12/16/14 03:15 AM
12/16/14 03:15 AM
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,319
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Wonka Offline
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Card,

I think you and W had a very honest exchange. This is to be applauded for opening up for the pair of you.

Originally Posted By: Card
Then I was so ashamed after viewing porn, I didn't feel like I deserved to sleep in bed with my wife, so I would sleep on the couch. That robbed us of our only intimate connection time. We used to talk for hours in bed, no TV, no phones. That disappeared. Then when when we were close, or we did have sex, the intimacy kept dwindling. It turned into "let's get this over with" for her, it turned into "why can't we do this more often??" for me. She told me today she felt violated during sex for much of our marriage, which hurt to hear. not because I forced of pressured her, just because there was .


Did you try to validate your W's feelings and own up to your role in this? This is BIG, BIG! Did you ask any open-ended questions on what it would look like to her? The intimacy and sex FOR her.

Re: Card29 VII [Re: Wonka] #2517660
12/16/14 04:32 AM
12/16/14 04:32 AM
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I did validate and I avoided making any comments about her shaming reactions because I want her to know it was MY problem, MY fault. Right now shes still reeling. I have not asked an open-ended question. With the way our convos have went lately, I'm guessing I'll have a chance to, though. She sent me a text tonight (really late, hours after she's normly asleep) saying:

Quote:
When we were first together I used to feel pressure to please you sexually to get you to stay. I did things all the time bc I thought that's what I needed to do. And now knowing that for the next 7 years you were fulfilling yourself with pornography instead of me, and thinking about it when we were being intimate..I feel so used. And violated.


She then said she was going to bed, and not to respond. I did not.


Me 30, STBX 30
D3
M 8 years
BD 6/3/14
S 7/26/14
Off-and-on. PA since BD. Possibly "off" since Winter 2015?
Light Switch/I'm Over Her 12/31/14
D finalized 1/10/16
Re: Card29 VII [Re: Card29] #2517664
12/16/14 04:51 AM
12/16/14 04:51 AM
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Posts: 7,319
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Wonka Offline
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Card,

How about this....just a suggestion.

W, all of this had to be very difficult for you to share this with me and it was a brave thing to do. It took some guts to speak up. I have given your comments some serious thought. I want to be sure that I understand you correctly. Are you saying that you feel devalued by me sexually? That sounds like a really awful place to be in and I thank you for bringing this to my attention. I want to and do to take full responsibility for this unacceptable behavior by not repeating it ever again.

You do not need to answer right away. I can imagine that this is a very difficult and painful topic for you. I am here to talk when you are ready. Hopefully we can have some dialogue that is healing for both of us.



My suggestion is to send this tomorrow morning.

Last edited by Wonka; 12/16/14 04:55 AM.
Re: Card29 VII [Re: Wonka] #2517760
12/16/14 03:19 PM
12/16/14 03:19 PM
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We texted again this morning. I basically communicated what you recommended, in my own words, expressed my sorrow for causing her to feel like that. She answered the open ended question with:

Quote:
I'm saying that without the emotional intimacy I felt like I was being used as a sexual object then. That's why I always just left when you were done. Now I feel used and violated.


I validated again, then I reiterated that I learned about some of the damage that porn can and has done over the summer, and since that time I've been doing everything I can to stop permanently, both looking and thinking about it. I ended with "I'm always here to listen".


Me 30, STBX 30
D3
M 8 years
BD 6/3/14
S 7/26/14
Off-and-on. PA since BD. Possibly "off" since Winter 2015?
Light Switch/I'm Over Her 12/31/14
D finalized 1/10/16
Re: Card29 VII [Re: Card29] #2517763
12/16/14 03:27 PM
12/16/14 03:27 PM
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Posts: 7,319
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Wonka Offline
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Card,

This is a good first step. I would suggest that you call our friend, GoatGal, to come over and help you through this process as she has been through this kind of pain. GGG is over at the MLC forum.

You might ask W what does emotional intimacy look like for her and you want to hear her out so you can understand better on how to meet her needs.

Re: Card29 VII [Re: Wonka] #2517776
12/16/14 03:59 PM
12/16/14 03:59 PM
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 898
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Card29 Offline OP
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I will do both of those things. Thank you so much for your input, Wonka. I referenced your Validation Cheat Sheet before I made any responses this morning.


Me 30, STBX 30
D3
M 8 years
BD 6/3/14
S 7/26/14
Off-and-on. PA since BD. Possibly "off" since Winter 2015?
Light Switch/I'm Over Her 12/31/14
D finalized 1/10/16
Re: Card29 VII [Re: Card29] #2517798
12/16/14 05:00 PM
12/16/14 05:00 PM
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Card29 Offline OP
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She just texted:

Quote:
I feel like this invalidates our entire marriage.


I feel like it was very destructive but I don't believe it invalidates the entire thing. There were lots of good times, there was some intimacy, just not enough. I didn't say any of that to her. I just asked, "Would you mind saying more?"


Me 30, STBX 30
D3
M 8 years
BD 6/3/14
S 7/26/14
Off-and-on. PA since BD. Possibly "off" since Winter 2015?
Light Switch/I'm Over Her 12/31/14
D finalized 1/10/16
Re: Card29 VII [Re: Card29] #2517808
12/16/14 05:32 PM
12/16/14 05:32 PM
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Her response:

Quote:
You chose porn over me for ten years. I begged you not to sleep on the couch. You made a decision not to give this up. Which led to our lack of talking and connection and then our sexual issues. Simply the lie and deceit prob contributed a lot to the dist between us. I feel like you've been cheating on me the entire time we've been together. You clearly made this choice over me time and time again.


More validation from me


Me 30, STBX 30
D3
M 8 years
BD 6/3/14
S 7/26/14
Off-and-on. PA since BD. Possibly "off" since Winter 2015?
Light Switch/I'm Over Her 12/31/14
D finalized 1/10/16
Re: Card29 VII [Re: Card29] #2517815
12/16/14 05:58 PM
12/16/14 05:58 PM
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Mozza Offline
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I'm very impressed with this exchange. It's like your W finally feels safe to open up, knowing you will be separated anyway. Don't waste this opportunity by suggesting between the lines that if she accepts your confession, you should be back together. She knows very, very well that you want her. If she could doubt that for a second, it would only play in your favour. Keep confessing and validating. I know it's very hard for you not to pursue, but it's the first of the 37 rules for a reason. You can do it.


M39 D6 D3 (at S)
S 2014-09
D 2016-09

"You can't start a fire sitting around, crying over a broken heart" - Bruce Springsteen.
Re: Card29 VII [Re: Mozza] #2517828
12/16/14 06:35 PM
12/16/14 06:35 PM
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I am trying to apply all of my DB knowledge right now. Definitely avoiding pursuit. She is now asking me about everything, if I ever had an affair (I said no, she doubts it, I validate her feelings of doubt), if I was a virgin when we met as I told her (I was), asked if I went to strip clubs, etc.

I'm not having any expectations, especially after she told me she wanted a divorce after a 5-month separation (it wasn't heat of the moment at all). I know that if this does turn the tide, it will be a long way down the road. I just need to find a healthy way to have hope. I need to read all of uR's posts


Me 30, STBX 30
D3
M 8 years
BD 6/3/14
S 7/26/14
Off-and-on. PA since BD. Possibly "off" since Winter 2015?
Light Switch/I'm Over Her 12/31/14
D finalized 1/10/16
Re: Card29 VII [Re: Card29] #2517829
12/16/14 06:40 PM
12/16/14 06:40 PM
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Wonka Offline
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Originally Posted By: Card29
She just texted:

Quote:
I feel like this invalidates our entire marriage.


I feel like it was very destructive but I don't believe it invalidates the entire thing. There were lots of good times, there was some intimacy, just not enough. I didn't say any of that to her. I just asked, "Would you mind saying more?"


To a woman, yes it does. The emotional intimacy is sacrosanct for women so for men engaging in porn to the near exclusion to the martial relationship is very, very destructive and devastating. You only need to read through GGG's threads to get a glimmer of how porn impacts a woman and the marriage.

This is HOW your W feels....don't be too dismissive of her feelings.

Re: Card29 VII [Re: Mozza] #2517833
12/16/14 06:47 PM
12/16/14 06:47 PM
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Wonka Offline
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Mozza,

Originally Posted By: Mozza
I'm very impressed with this exchange. It's like your W finally feels safe to open up, knowing you will be separated anyway. Don't waste this opportunity by suggesting between the lines that if she accepts your confession, you should be back together.


Absolutely not. It is not that simple. Card has to work really hard to regain his wife's trust long, long before contemplating a reconciliation. It is not for Card to suggest that they "should" be back together after he confesses and is transparent about his porn issues. Ironically, it's W who is holding the cards here. And rightfully so.

Re: Card29 VII [Re: Wonka] #2517835
12/16/14 06:51 PM
12/16/14 06:51 PM
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Wonka: We're saying the same thing. I told Card NOT to suggest they should be back together.


M39 D6 D3 (at S)
S 2014-09
D 2016-09

"You can't start a fire sitting around, crying over a broken heart" - Bruce Springsteen.
Re: Card29 VII [Re: Card29] #2517836
12/16/14 06:51 PM
12/16/14 06:51 PM
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Card,

You're doing really good. Easy does it. You two won't resolve this problem that's been years in the making in one week.

You might want to join a porn addiction group online to get support in trying to work with your W in regaining her trust.

Keep going, buddy.

Re: Card29 VII [Re: Card29] #2517875
12/16/14 09:19 PM
12/16/14 09:19 PM
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uRworthy Offline
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Hey Card. I am going to be really honest here. It does you no
good if I'm not.

I think your conversations have given her a lot to think about. I am glad to see that you are letting her lead on this. She needs to work through this in her own way. Its really important that she does.

This has to be about her. She keeps saying she felt violated. The fact that she keeps repeating it leads me to believe that she isnt feeling validated on this.

It is best to keep it simple,"I am so sorry you are hurting. It was never my intent to make you feel that way. I was wrong to look at porn and put it before my wife. I know that caused a great deal of problems between us."

It is really important that she feels heard. This is really, really difficult for a woman, C. Its why she is asking if she was a good wife. She feels that it is her fault in some way.
That it was because she was lacking.

Originally Posted By: Card29
I told her that she took her frustrations out on me for a long time, even ones that had nothing to do with me, and that drove me away for her for a long time.


I would imagine she was frustrated with the way your marriage was and knowing what you did. Be careful there.

Originally Posted By: Card29

I think I could have overcome my porn habit a long time ago if she had met me with love on the topic. Instead she just expressed her disgust.


I know you didnt say that to her, but, I am concerned that you are thinking that. It sounds as if you are blaming her. I would imagine it would be very difficult to meet that topic with love. It is a very hurtful act that clearly made her feel as if she wasnt enough.


Originally Posted By: Card29

She told me today she felt violated during sex for much of our marriage, which hurt to hear. not because I forced or pressured her, just because there was no intimacy.


A woman needs intimacy before the physical, C. She needs to feel connected, loved, cherished. She didnt feel that.

As I said, this has to be about her right now. There should not be anything from you to imply that if you got back together, things would be different. She will think, "Yea, right."

You need to show her that you have changed. She needs to see something different than what she has seen before. And she needs to see it over a long period of time. She needs to feel heard.

Her trust has been broken. You have to earn it back. You do that with consistent actions over time.

Let her lead. Do not get pulled into convos like the one about whether she was a good wife. That just leads to problems. No matter what you say right now, she is going to think she wasnt a good one because she wasnt enough.

Treat her respectfully and with dignity. Show her compassion, strength and honor.

You can do this, C.

Last edited by uRworthy; 12/16/14 09:22 PM.
Re: Card29 VII [Re: Wonka] #2517876
12/16/14 09:30 PM
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Originally Posted By: Wonka
Card,

You're doing really good. Easy does it. You two won't resolve this problem that's been years in the making in one week.

You might want to join a porn addiction group online to get support in trying to work with your W in regaining her trust.

Keep going, buddy.

I did about 4 months ago, and the things I've learned and practiced from that have helped more than anything I've tried since I was a 15 year old kid first discovering porn. I tried will power for years, I tried accountability groups, I tried internet filters. Will power can only work for a few weeks at most, LOL at internet filters (where there's a will, there's a way), and accountability only gave me more shame, which just made me lie to accountability partners (friends from church, etc.). I am the sexually healthiest I've been in my adult life, still a long way to go.

Tonight, WAW is very hurt and angry. Tonight was supposed to be her's with D2, but she asked me to get her from school "Because I think I will really upset D2 if she's over here." I asked if she's crying a lot and she said, "Not your concern." I simply said Okay and agreed to get D2.


Me 30, STBX 30
D3
M 8 years
BD 6/3/14
S 7/26/14
Off-and-on. PA since BD. Possibly "off" since Winter 2015?
Light Switch/I'm Over Her 12/31/14
D finalized 1/10/16
Re: Card29 VII [Re: Card29] #2517881
12/16/14 09:44 PM
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Card, not sure why you asked if she was crying a lot.

Leave her to sort this out. She is working through it. You need to let her.

You are going to see more anger, I would bet. Dont try to fix it. Listen, validate and then listen some more.

Re: Card29 VII [Re: uRworthy] #2517890
12/16/14 10:29 PM
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Originally Posted By: uRworthy
This has to be about her. She keeps saying she felt violated. The fact that she keeps repeating it leads me to believe that she isnt feeling validated on this.

It is best to keep it simple,"I am so sorry you are hurting. It was never my intent to make you feel that way. I was wrong to look at porn and put it before my wife. I know that caused a great deal of problems between us."

It is really important that she feels heard. This is really, really difficult for a woman, C. Its why she is asking if she was a good wife. She feels that it is her fault in some way.
That it was because she was lacking.


I will make sure to validate her any chance I get. Thank you for the insight.

Originally Posted By: uRworthy
Originally Posted By: Card29

I told her that she took her frustrations out on me for a long time, even ones that had nothing to do with me, and that drove me away for her for a long time.


I would imagine she was frustrated with the way your marriage was and knowing what you did. Be careful there.


That's true. She asked, so I told her very simply without too much emotion behind it. I'll have those conversations with her only if she really wants to talk. Like you said, right now this is about her. But in case you didn't follow my sitch very closely, she has battled depression for years, even before I met her. I'm sure the lack of intimacy made it worse. I'm definitely not bringing up her depression right now. That is for a totally different conversation, if it ever gets there. She is trying to deal with it, seeing a psych and taking meds. I would love to support her, I know I can't fix it. I didn't bring it up, though, because I know she is very insecure and the last thing I want is for her to feel guilty about her depression.

Originally Posted By: uRworth
Originally Posted By: Card29
I think I could have overcome my porn habit a long time ago if she had met me with love on the topic. Instead she just expressed her disgust.


I know you didnt say that to her, but, I am concerned that you are thinking that. It sounds as if you are blaming her. I would imagine it would be very difficult to meet that topic with love. It is a very hurtful act that clearly made her feel as if she wasnt enough.


I definitely do not blame her. It wasn't just with porn confessions - she met just about any failure or limitation of mine with anger, judgment, etc. For example, last Christmas we decided to try to sing Christmas songs to D2 while I played them on piano. I normally play by myself. I was a little nervous, so I kept screwing up, and she got extremely mad and just left the room after a couple of minutes. That kind of thing happened regularly.

But I definitely understand your point that it might be impossible for her to meet the porn topic with love. She obviously sees it on a similar plane as having an affair, which I would not expect her to react with love towards. Hopefully this is a moot point, though...if my current flight away from porn succeeds permanently, I would never have to worry about how W reacts to a porn confession again.

Originally Posted By: uRworthy
A woman needs intimacy before the physical, C. She needs to feel connected, loved, cherished. She didnt feel that.

As I said, this has to be about her right now. There should not be anything from you to imply that if you got back together, things would be different. She will think, "Yea, right."

You need to show her that you have changed. She needs to see something different than what she has seen before. And she needs to see it over a long period of time. She needs to feel heard.

Her trust has been broken. You have to earn it back. You do that with consistent actions over time.


Here's my plan for that: I will continue to focus on myself, focus on my 180's (no porn or inappropriate thoughts ... intentional, thoughtful listening ... no angry outbursts ... validations of her feelings ... "No More Mr Nice Guy"). I will continue to utilize and practice my new traits in everyday life, not just when I'm around her (which isn't that often right now, except for this week, moving week). I will not try to simply think of what she needs to see and act that out. That won't last, and she can see through BS from me.

Originally Posted By: uRworthy
Let her lead. Do not get pulled into convos like the one about whether she was a good wife. That just leads to problems. No matter what you say right now, she is going to think she wasnt a good one because she wasnt enough.


So if she brings it up again in this context, my strategy should be to validate her feelings, briefly validate her as a wife, but primarly put the blame of my behavior back on me?

Originally Posted By: uRworthy
Treat her respectfully and with dignity. Show her compassion, strength and honor.

You can do this, C.


Thank you for the kind words, and for spending so much time and putting so much thought into your responses.


Me 30, STBX 30
D3
M 8 years
BD 6/3/14
S 7/26/14
Off-and-on. PA since BD. Possibly "off" since Winter 2015?
Light Switch/I'm Over Her 12/31/14
D finalized 1/10/16
Re: Card29 VII [Re: uRworthy] #2517891
12/16/14 10:29 PM
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Originally Posted By: uRworthy
Card, not sure why you asked if she was crying a lot.

Leave her to sort this out. She is working through it. You need to let her.

You are going to see more anger, I would bet. Dont try to fix it. Listen, validate and then listen some more.


I guess I was just trying to show her that I know she's hurting. Clumsy attempt, I admit

One thing I've noticed...this feels a lot like when I confessed my problems to her early in our relationship. She was extremely hurt for at least 2-3 days both of those times. And of course back then, she was in love with me, so we began to heal together, and it led to some really good stretches (porn-free, intimate, etc.). My bad strategies at quitting porn never worked, though, so it sent me back down the same spiral.

Last edited by Card29; 12/16/14 10:31 PM.

Me 30, STBX 30
D3
M 8 years
BD 6/3/14
S 7/26/14
Off-and-on. PA since BD. Possibly "off" since Winter 2015?
Light Switch/I'm Over Her 12/31/14
D finalized 1/10/16
Re: Card29 VII [Re: Card29] #2517915
12/16/14 11:53 PM
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C, I like your plan. smile

I know you arent her, but, do you have any idea why she met any failure or limitation of yours with anger or judgment?

I apologize. I did not know your w suffers from depression. I am sorry she does.

I suffered from depression for many years until I finally found what I needed in order to feel better. It took a lot of hard work, perserverance and trial and error with different meds and finding the right therapist.

Depression feels like you are swimming in mud with 300 pounds of weight on your back and no shore in sight. Some days just getting out of bed takes enormous effort. You know something is wrong, yet, you dont know exactly what that is. You feel unworthy and less than and cant understand why the feelings wont go away.

Sometimes you feel as if you would do anything to get the pain to stop.

When all this happened with my xh, I was very, very small. I went into my therapist's office and squeezed into the corner of the couch. I proceeded to tell her it was all my fault. I was a horrible wife and he was right to want to leave me. I felt so badly about myself.

Now, that wasnt true, but, its how I saw things at the time.

Depression comes out in different ways with different people. Sometimes it is anger, sometimes it is frustration, sometimes you cry all the time or become apathetic.

It isnt something that you can snap out of. It is very real, very debilitating and life changing.

I do hope she finds the right help. She has a long road ahead of her.

If she asks again about being a good wife and you feel you have to answer. "You were a great wife. We both could have handled some things better." Because there isnt ever going to be answer that is enough for her. If you go on about how good she was, she is thinking...not good enough that he didnt look at porn. If you say what things were wrong with her..you feed into her feelings of being unworthy. It just isnt a good convo to have now.

I know you want to fix it for her, but, you cant. This is something she needs to work through in order to come out the other side.

You keep working on you. Give her space.

Re: Card29 VII [Re: uRworthy] #2517922
12/17/14 12:19 AM
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Thank you for your thoughts on depression. I'm so glad to hear you were able to work through it. I didn't know anything about depression before I met her. When she first told me about her depression, when we were first dating, I said, "Yeah I feel sad sometimes, too." I totally didn't get it. I regret that I didn't try to learn more about depression pre-BD, but from what I've learned, it seems there isn't a whole lot I can do for her in that regard, anyway.

Originally Posted By: uRworthy
I know you arent her, but, do you have any idea why she met any failure or limitation of yours with anger or judgment?


I'll never know for sure unless we piece and possibly reconcile, but here are a few of my thoughts:

- Her depression. It was hard for her to be joyful or loving. As we've discussed, a portion of that behavior can be attributed to the lack of intimacy due to my faults, as well.

- I was her only "safe" outlet of frustrations. She is an extremely professional employee and would never go off at work. She is distant from most of her family. She only had a couple of close friends throughout the last 10 years. I did not stand up to borderline verbal abuse, so it was a "safe" outlet. Of course that only explains why she took it out on me, not why she needed to take it out on anyone to begin with.

- Just like me, she did not learn good marriage and/or communication skills during her childhood. Her parents grew distant, then her dad had an affair and left the family. Parents fought like cats and dogs, or at least her mom was very hostile towards her dad.


Me 30, STBX 30
D3
M 8 years
BD 6/3/14
S 7/26/14
Off-and-on. PA since BD. Possibly "off" since Winter 2015?
Light Switch/I'm Over Her 12/31/14
D finalized 1/10/16
Re: Card29 VII [Re: Card29] #2517940
12/17/14 01:12 AM
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Hey Card,

Well, there is a LOT here... is there something specific you wanted some insight about?

I understand how your W reacting to your porn use in a shaming way, instead of in a compassionate one, didn't help your recovery at the time.

But understand, it wasn't her job to help you feel better about something that was hurtful to her. IF she gets to a place where she is willing to work with you on that, then that's something she'll need to learn. She was hurt, and that's how hurt people react.

I don't think most women would flip out if they found that their partners looked at porn on occasion. But the situation you described is different.

When there is secrecy, lying/hiding... when it because a guilty-pleasure that you're unwilling (or unable) to give up, when you know it bothers your partner, yet you keep doing it and just hide it better, when it starts having a negative impact on your relationship in general (secrets will do that) and your sex life in particular, (she felt like she was just a body/parts), then yes. It's a real problem.

For me, I began to feel like my H was really only interested in my body, not me as a person. AT ALL. Any compliments were very vulgar... I never heard "You look beautiful". I got a leering..."NICE BOOBIES!!!!"

It was very objectifying. And over time, degrading. I really started to feel like I wasn't even there in bed. I started to disassociate myself from the experience because it became that unpleasant. I didn't understand why at the time. I loved my H, and yet I was feeling more and more repulsed.

It has taken hindsight and information to finally understand what was going on.
For lack of a better word, in this situation the woman becomes a masturbation tool. (Sorry for the frank wording folks, but that's the REALITY of this situation.)

I felt exactly like that ^^^^. And it did NOT make me feel loved AT ALL. I felt used, and dirty, and I didn't know why.
And when I complained about the disconnect, I was told I wasn't attractive to him, or I wasn't enthusiastic about acting out his fantasies.

And let me say--he was not the LEAST bit interested in changing any of his repertoire to please me. Not ever. Any attempt was once, and half-hearted at best.
He just wanted what he wanted.

Lucky for me, I'm easy to please, if you get my drift. smile

But still, it became unbearable.

Sorry for the TMI, but just so you understand how we wives start to feel.
When guys are over involved with porn, it SPILLS OVER into HOW THEY TREAT US.

And not in a good way.

---(G)GGG


Me 54 Him 63
M 23 T 29
0 Kids
Funny Farm of Rescues
12/12 OW--
5/13 ILYBINILWY: A denied
9/13 Proof OW: ENDED
2/14 Got D papers on my BD
I kicked him out for my sanity
9/14 He wants to "talk"?



Re: Card29 VII [Re: Card29] #2517948
12/17/14 01:27 AM
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GGG,

Thank you for sharing your experiences here for Card's benefit.

Originally Posted By: Card29
We texted again this morning. I basically communicated what you recommended, in my own words, expressed my sorrow for causing her to feel like that. She answered the open ended question with:

Quote:
I'm saying that without the emotional intimacy I felt like I was being used as a sexual object then. That's why I always just left when you were done. Now I feel used and violated.


Now that you've detailed how your H's porn addiction affected you and your M, could you please guide Card on the some of the ways he can communicate to his W in an empathetic way that he's heard her and what are some concrete steps he can in healing this rift for his W?

Let's say that Card is your H what would YOU like to hear and see from him that shows you how serious and sincere he is about this issue. What would it take from Card to make you feel heard? What steps can Card undertake to repair the rift?

What would it look like to you, GGG?

Re: Card29 VII [Re: Wonka] #2517950
12/17/14 01:35 AM
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Card,

I'm not suggesting that you engage in heavy talks with your W all day/night this week. Step back for a while and allow her to process her own emotions. I'm putting forward questions to GGG to get the ball rolling for your benefit as I think she'll be a valuable resource for you.

Re: Card29 VII [Re: Wonka] #2517952
12/17/14 01:37 AM
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GGG your post was spot-on. You are brave to give all that words, and you nailed it perfectly.



"Don't look back, you aren't going that way"
Re: Card29 VII [Re: SunnyB] #2517962
12/17/14 02:08 AM
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GGG, that is exactly what I was looking for. Great perspective, and thank you for the honesty. Whenever you have time, I would greatly appreciate your advice as Wonka is asking.


Me 30, STBX 30
D3
M 8 years
BD 6/3/14
S 7/26/14
Off-and-on. PA since BD. Possibly "off" since Winter 2015?
Light Switch/I'm Over Her 12/31/14
D finalized 1/10/16
Re: Card29 VII [Re: SunnyB] #2517964
12/17/14 02:13 AM
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Okay... I'll need some time to think about it.

But let me say that words will mean little, beyond a heartfelt apology for your actions. When the time is right, per your peanut gallery here.

But a sincere apology consists of stating the ways you believe you hurt her, based on what she said.
"I am so deeply sorry for having made you feel...whatever she felt"

You take FULL RESPONSIBILITY for your actions 100%. No, she's not perfect, but right now this is about how YOU made mistakes.

No deflecting, no "buts", or "becauses". You did what you did, you caused her pain, and you regret your actions.

No excuses: "I didn't know it was hurting you..." because after the first go-round, you DID know. "I didn't have the right help/support/info..."
While that may be true to some extent, it shifts the blame.

If you didn't have the right program, then it was your responsibility to find another one, and another one...until you got it right.

You stopped trying and started hiding.

You show REAL REMORSE for harming your relationship.
You RECOGNIZE the harm that it has done by sharing more with her, ways it caused distance between you that might not have occurred to her.

You TELL THE TRUTH. If she blows up, take a break, then you keep telling the truth. Her getting angry or crying is not am excuse to quit unless SHE wants to stop talking about it.
You answer all her questions, no matter how it pains you.
But be sensitive--you will feel under attack and there will be a tendency to think:
"Okay. You want to hear all the gory details? Here ya GO!!!"

Underline this whole convo with how much you love her, always did, that she is beautiful and desirable and how your actions in no way diminished that.
It was about you and your issues and not her at all.

That if you had it to do over again, with your eyes wide open, you would never, ever mistreat her like that again.

Because it was mistreating her; it was detrimental to the bond between you and it eroded so much emotional intimacy.

You tell her how you can see how it was destructive, to yourself (the shame), to her, (her self-esteem and sexual/emotional connection to you), and to your marriage, (because a healthy partnership cannot exist when there are secrets.)

There is a difference between secrecy and privacy.
The first destroys R, the second is a healthy personal boundary.

Don't confuse the two.

Now all this ^^^ is just the talking part.

It means exactly nothing without a serious plan in place to get healthy and rid yourself of this crutch.

For her to pay any attention to what you say, you HAVE to prove you're serious.
Long term.
And don't expect her to turn cartwheels when you're just starting the road to recovery.

Anyone can START a path to recovery.

What she's going to be looking for is long term, consistent change, and PROOF of this change.

Willingness for 100% transparency, no more lies (which are the worst, really), accountability---all done ON YOUR OWN without her asking.

No wife wants be be in a situation where we're the "police". It's horrible.
We want you to do it on your own and the results will speak for themselves.

---(G)GGG


Me 54 Him 63
M 23 T 29
0 Kids
Funny Farm of Rescues
12/12 OW--
5/13 ILYBINILWY: A denied
9/13 Proof OW: ENDED
2/14 Got D papers on my BD
I kicked him out for my sanity
9/14 He wants to "talk"?



Re: Card29 VII [Re: Wonka] #2517965
12/17/14 02:20 AM
12/17/14 02:20 AM
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Originally Posted By: Wonka
Card,

I'm not suggesting that you engage in heavy talks with your W all day/night this week. Step back for a while and allow her to process her own emotions. I'm putting forward questions to GGG to get the ball rolling for your benefit as I think she'll be a valuable resource for you.


I don't know about WAW, but I'm a little mentally exhausted. I hope she's like me and needs at least a 24 hr break to process. I'm not initiating anything right now

The last thing I said to her, earlier this afternoon, was an explanation of why I have read and followed NMMNG, which she found on my counter one day this fall and remarked at the subtitle (How to Get What You Want in Love, Life and Sex). She's made jokes about it since then, how I'm trying to play the field now. It was lighthearted prior to this revelation. I figured if she remembered it now, it would deepen her doubts, but if I beat her to the punch, my explanation might seem more genuine. Here is what I said:

Quote:
Also, in case you're wondering about that No More Mr Nice Guy book, I got that without any thought of sex. It was recommended to me by people from my support group when they learned about some of my tendencies (people pleaser [especially women, like {name of my minor EA partner from 2 years ago}...playing piano for them, etc], conflict avoidance ... those behaviors led to resentment, passive aggressiveness, distance, etc). I was just as surprised as you when I read the subtitle of the book (how to get what you want in love, life and sex). It is not a pick-up book, or anything. It's about being a man. I basically went the opposite of my dad when he was drunk...aggressive, loud, didn't care about others' feelings. That is a big thing that shaped me. It doesn't mean I'm trying to become a jerk, but there are times when I should be more assertive, and especially more open and honest. If I had been, we may have talked about this a long time ago.


Her response was "Maybe". Not sure if that means maybe we would have talked about it, or doubting that I didn't get it to hook up with women. I didn't ask.


Me 30, STBX 30
D3
M 8 years
BD 6/3/14
S 7/26/14
Off-and-on. PA since BD. Possibly "off" since Winter 2015?
Light Switch/I'm Over Her 12/31/14
D finalized 1/10/16
Re: Card29 VII [Re: Card29] #2517969
12/17/14 02:49 AM
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Hey Card,

She's going to think what she's going to think. Let the book stay there, maybe she'll pick it up and see for herself it's not about picking up women. smile

Anyhow, the long post above ^^^. I was just going to jot a few things down, first of which was to echo what Wonka said.

Now is probably not the time for any real discussions. You'll need time to really think things through and try on the words to see how they fit you.

The biggest thing is--for the future--she needs to feel SAFE with you.
That means she can trust you not to hurt her.
Once we get burned, it's hard to trust.

So expect to bend over backwards demonstrating how she can trust you.
That you have integrity and are honest as the day is long.

Even now, separated from my H, I have told him I expect no less from him. That I will continue to be upfront and honest about my actions and intentions, and I expect him to be a man of his word and to treat me with kindness and respect.

He's had his moments, but I have always pushed back when he has crossed the line. And just in the last few days, I see he is being kinder and more considerate of me.

Whether or not we get back together, this speaks volumes to the kind of man he is trying to be. It's a process, and it means a lot to me to see him making improvements.

--(G)GGG

Re: Card29 VII [Re: GoatGal] #2517971
12/17/14 02:55 AM
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Thanks for following up, GGG. That's going in my journal


Me 30, STBX 30
D3
M 8 years
BD 6/3/14
S 7/26/14
Off-and-on. PA since BD. Possibly "off" since Winter 2015?
Light Switch/I'm Over Her 12/31/14
D finalized 1/10/16
Re: Card29 VII [Re: Card29] #2517972
12/17/14 03:01 AM
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Originally Posted By: GoatGal
I don't think most women would flip out if they found that their partners looked at porn on occasion. But the situation you described is different.


I will say that even when my W found out about it the first time, when we had only been dating for a year or so, she was extremely upset then, too. I don't blame her, I'm not saying she's wrong. I agree that it is very wrong, I always have, even while I continued doing it. Just saying here that it is an even bigger deal to her than most women.


Me 30, STBX 30
D3
M 8 years
BD 6/3/14
S 7/26/14
Off-and-on. PA since BD. Possibly "off" since Winter 2015?
Light Switch/I'm Over Her 12/31/14
D finalized 1/10/16
Re: Card29 VII [Re: Card29] #2517983
12/17/14 03:29 AM
12/17/14 03:29 AM
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 1,174
Mid-Atlantic, USA
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GoatGal Offline
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Well... I did say "most" smile

However, you did marry her knowing how she felt. She has a right to that feeling and many women do feel like that even about the casual viewing. I don't share that view, although I certainly understand it.
You are using other women for your gratification, instead of turning to her. That can be painful. And how can we compete with a never-ending parade of enhanced bodies and crazy combinations of activities?
I can see why she might feel like that.

But beware, this could sound as if you are blaming her for not being open-minded enough, and making it about HER shortcomings--not that I think you are--but the fact that she didn't like it even back then, it's irrelevant, know what I'm saying?

So--knowing you were marrying a woman who was very upset about your porn usage---what was your way around that in your mind?
(Because there had to be a workaround, especially since it got out of hand by your own admission.)

Re: Card29 VII [Re: GoatGal] #2517992
12/17/14 03:53 AM
12/17/14 03:53 AM
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Mozza Offline
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I really like this conversation and I see it referenced in other threads, so please know that your honesty is having an impact here, so it must be the same for your W. In fact, it's obvious from her answers.

I said before that I'm impressed but the truth is that I'm also envious. Those moments of openness and honesty are those we fear the most yet they are the ones that provide the greatest satisfaction. There's nothing I'd want more just now than to tell my W what I learned and where I failed her. Not all of us find the right time and channel to do so.

I like especially what you and GoatGal are saying about your W's standards. Perhaps she was more shaken than the average woman, but that's who you decided to marry so you had to live up to her standards. It's even more true now as you're not in a strong negotiating position. She's made clear that this is a deal breaker for her.

Many of us might think that we didn't deserve to be separated because we were not that bad, but the truth is that we were judged by a jury of one: our spouse. It doesn't matter if 99% of spouses would have gladly endured our shortcomings: we chose a specific person who came with their set of expectations and, if we want to be with that person, we have to meet them.

Thanks for the life lessons and good luck with this conversation. Remember though: no expectations.


M39 D6 D3 (at S)
S 2014-09
D 2016-09

"You can't start a fire sitting around, crying over a broken heart" - Bruce Springsteen.
Re: Card29 VII [Re: Mozza] #2517997
12/17/14 04:13 AM
12/17/14 04:13 AM
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Posts: 898
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Card29 Offline OP
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I hope we can all learn together. I know I've learned just as much in other threads as I have my own.

Ad far as the timing and channel for this conversation...I had been waiting months for the opportunity. It never really came, so after she told me she wanted a D, we finally split our finances, and I was finally officially moving out of the house, I figured there never was going to be a perfect time, so I came out with it. Her reception has shocked me. I knew porn used to really bother her, but I thought this was going to be a 10 minute conversation. I just thought she deserved to know, but I was also hoping it would give her hope in change. I'm not pursuing or expecting that change of heart, though. It has been very hard to hear how much it still hurts her, but I'd take this reaction over indifference.


Me 30, STBX 30
D3
M 8 years
BD 6/3/14
S 7/26/14
Off-and-on. PA since BD. Possibly "off" since Winter 2015?
Light Switch/I'm Over Her 12/31/14
D finalized 1/10/16
Re: Card29 VII [Re: Card29] #2517999
12/17/14 04:20 AM
12/17/14 04:20 AM
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 1,174
Mid-Atlantic, USA
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GoatGal Offline
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Mozza said:
"I said before that I'm impressed but the truth is that I'm also envious. Those moments of openness and honesty are those we fear the most yet they are the ones that provide the greatest satisfaction. There's nothing I'd want more just now than to tell my W what I learned and where I failed her. Not all of us find the right time and channel to do so."

This is so good I'm going to steal it for my thread because I wish I'd said it!

Re: Card29 VII [Re: GoatGal] #2518122
12/17/14 03:25 PM
12/17/14 03:25 PM
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Card29 Offline OP
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I'm coming down from the "high" of radical honesty. WAW has went a bit quiet. Now I'm just nauseous about the logistics of moving out of my house. I have to be out by tomorrow night, still quite a bit to do.


Me 30, STBX 30
D3
M 8 years
BD 6/3/14
S 7/26/14
Off-and-on. PA since BD. Possibly "off" since Winter 2015?
Light Switch/I'm Over Her 12/31/14
D finalized 1/10/16
Re: Card29 VII [Re: Card29] #2518126
12/17/14 03:29 PM
12/17/14 03:29 PM
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Card29 Offline OP
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Also trying to avoid slipping into expectations and/or wishful thinking.


Me 30, STBX 30
D3
M 8 years
BD 6/3/14
S 7/26/14
Off-and-on. PA since BD. Possibly "off" since Winter 2015?
Light Switch/I'm Over Her 12/31/14
D finalized 1/10/16
Re: Card29 VII [Re: Card29] #2518194
12/17/14 06:31 PM
12/17/14 06:31 PM
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 898
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Card29 Offline OP
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One bit of info from the chaos of the last few days that I wasn't able to respond to was my WAW's comment that in our early days, she felt like she needed to perform with me (frequency, variety, etc) in order for me to want to stay with her. I had no idea she felt that pressure, and it was not necessary from my perspective. I loved her because we just clicked. The time I spent hanging out and talking with her were my favorite times of anything else in my life at that time, and I was generally happy to begin with. From the start, she understood me better than anyone I'd ever known, even my own parents and siblings. I was swept up with that.

The sex actually was almost a negative for me at first. I was a virgin and intended to wait until marriage, and I was perfectly content with that. I actually felt pressure from her to have sex...I didn't feel abused or anything, and as we started doing more and more things with each other, I became more open to premarital sex. But I was never super comfortable with it. Our sex life started to decline before we were even married, but I was okay with the lack of sex because I figured the less we did before marriage, the better. So I never even wondered why we were struggling. The distance had already begun...by then we were in our apartment together, and I was looking at porn at night in the living room, then sleeping on the couch out of shame.

Reading through some of the emotional needs books, I definitely think I have a higher preference than most men to affection. Obviously most of us need it to some degree, but instead of my primary needs being Sexual Fulfillment and Recreational Companionship, I think my top two are Affection and Recreational Companionship, with Sexual Fulfillment a close third. Until this week I wasn't able to understand how WAW and I could have the same top EN (Affection), but not fulfill each other. I won't pretend to fully understand already, but I believe some of it can be attributed to distance/lack of communication due to shame & clouded perception of intimacy due to porn use on my part, and (I believe) lack of self-esteem, quick self-judgment due to depression on her part.

Thoughts? And how should this communication look in a convo with her? With everything we talked about the previous 2-1/2 days, I want to give her plenty of time before furthering the discussion, unless she initiates.


Me 30, STBX 30
D3
M 8 years
BD 6/3/14
S 7/26/14
Off-and-on. PA since BD. Possibly "off" since Winter 2015?
Light Switch/I'm Over Her 12/31/14
D finalized 1/10/16
Re: Card29 VII [Re: Card29] #2518201
12/17/14 06:42 PM
12/17/14 06:42 PM
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 898
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Card29 Offline OP
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OR, is it even a convo worth having at this point, since it is about such early days? Does it fall under the umbrella of the convos that I should avoid, which uRworthy alludes to, ones where I am trying to validate her as a wife? I feel like what I just talked about is more about my perspective, not about me trying to convince her on her perspective.


Me 30, STBX 30
D3
M 8 years
BD 6/3/14
S 7/26/14
Off-and-on. PA since BD. Possibly "off" since Winter 2015?
Light Switch/I'm Over Her 12/31/14
D finalized 1/10/16
Re: Card29 VII [Re: Card29] #2518235
12/17/14 07:54 PM
12/17/14 07:54 PM
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 3,319
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uRworthy Offline
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Card, I think if she really needs to talk about something, in order to work through it, that you should do so with the understanding that you have to be careful about how you respond.

As in the discussion about whether she was a good wife. That conversation really had no way of turning out well, imo. No matter what way you went with it.

So, keep those conversations short and bring it back to how she feels.

I think a lot of this she just needs to say out loud as a way of dealing with it.

Do mindful listening and validating as much as you can.

You want her to get to where she needs to be on her own in her own way.

Answer truthfully, without fingerpointing. She needs to feel heard.

I am not surprised that she is quiet. She is processing a whole lot.

Re: Card29 VII [Re: uRworthy] #2518303
12/17/14 11:52 PM
12/17/14 11:52 PM
Joined: Sep 2014
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jim0987 Offline
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Card, I just watched a TED talk which made me think of whats happening in your situation at the moment. You might find it interesting

its by Bruce Muzik and its called The big secret nobody wants to tell


Both mid 30s, 2 young kids
BD 7sep14
XW moved on long ago, now living with OM1
D paperwork in progress
Re: Card29 VII [Re: jim0987] #2518325
12/18/14 01:08 AM
12/18/14 01:08 AM
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 898
C
Card29 Offline OP
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Today she helped me move more stuff out of the house, no serious talks like yesterday. In fact she acted like nothing is wrong. There's no way she has processed it all already, right? I am a mess tonight. I love this house, I already miss it. I miss my family that I haven't had in 6 months, really a year if you count her being completely consumed with school and work last winter and spring. I pray and hope and we are able to heal and reconcile someday, but I don't have high hopes for that chance at the moment. Early in this process, I think I was sad for the past that I was losing. Now I'm much more upset about the potential future with one intact family that is probably lost. I know that shouldn't be my focus, but it's hard not to. I'm kind of glad I'm out of beer so I can't turn to a bottle tonight.

Jim, thanks for the recommendation. I'll check that out. Have you watched Brene Brown's the Power of Vulnerability?


Me 30, STBX 30
D3
M 8 years
BD 6/3/14
S 7/26/14
Off-and-on. PA since BD. Possibly "off" since Winter 2015?
Light Switch/I'm Over Her 12/31/14
D finalized 1/10/16
Re: Card29 VII [Re: Card29] #2518336
12/18/14 02:31 AM
12/18/14 02:31 AM
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 3,319
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uRworthy Offline
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You know, C, while your confession had a huge impact on her (and no, she didnt process it yet), I know it must have had one on you.

Owning up to a secret that was kept for that long and seeing how it affected her has to be weighing on you.

Add moving and the holidays and I am not surprised you are sad. So, go easy on yourself right now.

The thing of it is...you dont want to go back to that marriage. That was not healthy for either of you.

This journey was bound to happen. Your choice to do the work speaks volumes about who you are.

There is always hope as long as you hold onto it. You get to choose when there isnt any.

So, be kind to yourself right now. You have dealt with a lot of emotional stuff the last few days.

No one knows what the future holds. You need to continue of your path of becoming your best you.

Leave her to her journey. Enjoy your child and sort things out.

You will get through all of this and come out the other side.

Believe it.

Re: Card29 VII [Re: uRworthy] #2518338
12/18/14 02:52 AM
12/18/14 02:52 AM
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 898
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Card29 Offline OP
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Thank you. I definitely do not want to go back to the old marriage. That's kind of what has me even more anxious now...here is a detached look at how my mind has been spinning the last couple of days:

I can clearly see some the roots of our problems, I can see that they're fixable, I'm doing everything I can to fix my "bad roots", every expert and veteran who studies marital problems says our particular issues are permanently fixable, she wants affection, I want affection, she wants what is best for D2, she wants us to be together as a family on Christmas Day and at church because that would be good for D2...all of that should add up to wanting to at least try to reconcile, right? So when she shows that she still is not interested in reconciling, I'm devastated.

Just trying to survive this housing transition and go from there.


Me 30, STBX 30
D3
M 8 years
BD 6/3/14
S 7/26/14
Off-and-on. PA since BD. Possibly "off" since Winter 2015?
Light Switch/I'm Over Her 12/31/14
D finalized 1/10/16
Re: Card29 VII [Re: Card29] #2518350
12/18/14 03:36 AM
12/18/14 03:36 AM
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 3,319
U
uRworthy Offline
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I can clearly see some the roots of our problems, I can see that they're fixable, I'm doing everything I can to fix my "bad roots", every expert and veteran who studies marital problems says our particular issues are permanently fixable, she wants affection, I want affection, she wants what is best for D2, she wants us to be together as a family on Christmas Day and at church because that would be good for D2...all of that should add up to wanting to at least try to reconcile, right? So when she shows that she still is not interested in reconciling, I'm devastated.

Just because you can clearly see some of the roots of your problems, doesnt mean that she can, right? I mean, she just go the news of what you had been doing for years. Surely you didnt expect her to go, oh ok, no problem, we can just forget all of that and start new.

Maybe right now she doesnt think they are fixable. Maybe she needs to do this before she can. Maybe she is still reeling from the info and is trying to sort it out. Who knows?

You sure did tie all of that up with a nice bow, but, it isnt that easy, Card. I know you know that. Those problems run deep.

Doesnt mean she wont feel that way one day. It is just how she feels right now.

Doesnt mean you shouldnt continue on your path of healing and figuring out you.

Consistent actions, sincere words, and giving space is what she needs.

Worrying has no affect on the outcome. But moving forward, letting go and making changes may.

Re: Card29 VII [Re: uRworthy] #2518356
12/18/14 04:13 AM
12/18/14 04:13 AM
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Posts: 898
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Card29 Offline OP
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Man I love your comments.

I just saw this somewhere else, almost wondered if you wrote it: "At some point you have to give up hope for a better past."


Me 30, STBX 30
D3
M 8 years
BD 6/3/14
S 7/26/14
Off-and-on. PA since BD. Possibly "off" since Winter 2015?
Light Switch/I'm Over Her 12/31/14
D finalized 1/10/16
Re: Card29 VII [Re: uRworthy] #2518357
12/18/14 04:17 AM
12/18/14 04:17 AM
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 898
C
Card29 Offline OP
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One step at a time right now for me. Next step is find my toothpaste. It's buried somewhere amongst a couple dozen boxes and bags in my new home (which happens to be my old home).


Me 30, STBX 30
D3
M 8 years
BD 6/3/14
S 7/26/14
Off-and-on. PA since BD. Possibly "off" since Winter 2015?
Light Switch/I'm Over Her 12/31/14
D finalized 1/10/16
Re: Card29 VII [Re: Card29] #2518364
12/18/14 05:06 AM
12/18/14 05:06 AM
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 273
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NewB3 Offline
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Originally Posted By: Card29
Thank you. I definitely do not want to go back to the old marriage. That's kind of what has me even more anxious now...here is a detached look at how my mind has been spinning the last couple of days:

I can clearly see some the roots of our problems, I can see that they're fixable, I'm doing everything I can to fix my "bad roots", every expert and veteran who studies marital problems says our particular issues are permanently fixable, she wants affection, I want affection, she wants what is best for D2, she wants us to be together as a family on Christmas Day and at church because that would be good for D2...all of that should add up to wanting to at least try to reconcile, right? So when she shows that she still is not interested in reconciling, I'm devastated.

Just trying to survive this housing transition and go from there.



I remember feeling the same way. I knew my WAW was stressed and seeing what was coming, but nothing changed her mind on R. It is devastating. I know once I left, her stress level went way up. Being a single parent, selling our home, waiting for a bite to find another home for herself. Well, now that we each have our own place....we shall see.
Hang in there. Post here as a journal, ask questions as need. Always expect the worst and you will never be disappointed 😃


Me43/WAW43..M 4y..S1 11/S2 4..Bomb2/2014..Dfile 5/2014..Settlement signed 8/20/14..D final 8/29/14
I moved out 10/10/14..WAW got D she wanted. I wanted R. No waiting,just no boundaries in her way.
Re: Card29 VII [Re: NewB3] #2518429
12/18/14 01:49 PM
12/18/14 01:49 PM
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 898
C
Card29 Offline OP
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Woke up this morning not feeling particularly good about myself. And I hadn't thought about one small detail regarding my new arrangement that I am going to grow tired of very quickly...my mom's house doesn't have a fenced-in back yard. So no more letting the dogs out in the morning while I get D2 and myself ready. I have to walk them. I really don't have time for that. Additionally, I couldn't find their collars this morning (buried somewhere), so I had to try to stand in the backyard with them off of the leash. Predictably, a particular one of my dogs ended up running off. So then I had to put the other one and wander around the street looking for her. Still a lot to do my old house, which all has to be done today. But I can't even begin working on the rest of it until about 6:00 pm tonight. I'm just overwhelmed right now.

Last edited by Card29; 12/18/14 01:50 PM.

Me 30, STBX 30
D3
M 8 years
BD 6/3/14
S 7/26/14
Off-and-on. PA since BD. Possibly "off" since Winter 2015?
Light Switch/I'm Over Her 12/31/14
D finalized 1/10/16
Re: Card29 VII [Re: Card29] #2518454
12/18/14 03:08 PM
12/18/14 03:08 PM
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 898
C
Card29 Offline OP
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I have never felt the need to control anyone, and especially not W. But now that we're going through this, I'm realizing that I have a fear of lack of control with her decision to stay in this marriage, especially after she made it clear that she wants to move on after several months of separation. I'm not acting on the fear, except for occasional pursuit, and it is hurting me more than anything. Trying to let go.


Me 30, STBX 30
D3
M 8 years
BD 6/3/14
S 7/26/14
Off-and-on. PA since BD. Possibly "off" since Winter 2015?
Light Switch/I'm Over Her 12/31/14
D finalized 1/10/16
Re: Card29 VII [Re: Card29] #2518458
12/18/14 03:19 PM
12/18/14 03:19 PM
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 2,219
R
rd500 Offline
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Hi Card29, sorry your so down, her decision, is just that, hers. None of us can control our spouces and even if we could , to what end. Our spouces are making (rightly or wrongly is our opinion) decisions for themsleves and thats all they want to do at the moment. For me, and it took months, it was accepting that W has to travel down her own road, its incredible hard on me and the kids but she HAS to do it. If not it will raise its head again. People only accept help and advice when they want it and at the moment most of our WAS do not want it. If your W wants a life with you then you can both decide on working on your R. Its crap but thats what we all face. Pick yourself up as soon as you can and deal with the sitch as best you can. I wish I could offer better advice/news but this is our reality. take care rd

Re: Card29 VII [Re: rd500] #2518468
12/18/14 03:31 PM
12/18/14 03:31 PM
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 898
C
Card29 Offline OP
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That's all anyone really can say to me. It is the best advice. I just don't know why I need to keep hearing it in order to be sane. I thought I'd accepted it back in September, but I guess my hope (expectation?) that her heart would change for the good set me up for a massive crash, which I'm experiencing now.


Me 30, STBX 30
D3
M 8 years
BD 6/3/14
S 7/26/14
Off-and-on. PA since BD. Possibly "off" since Winter 2015?
Light Switch/I'm Over Her 12/31/14
D finalized 1/10/16
Re: Card29 VII [Re: Card29] #2518473
12/18/14 03:43 PM
12/18/14 03:43 PM
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 24
D
dil Offline
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Posts: 24
I feel for you buddy. I'm in the same boat right now. After a few months of separation, W still wants to D and has now said to me that she sees her life happier being on her own. That was really tough to hear...But I've picked myself up again realizing that I can have a good happy life too, with or without her. Just hang in there. Get those feelings out and I think you will feel better sooner than you think.


Me:31 W:28
No Kids
T:14 M:8
BD:09/24/14
Separation 09/25/14
Re: Card29 VII [Re: dil] #2518536
12/18/14 06:28 PM
12/18/14 06:28 PM
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 898
C
Card29 Offline OP
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Just bleached my favorite jacket by unknowingly cleaning bathrooms using a bleach-based cleaner. Having too crappy of a day to take on more crap, so I'm choosing to laugh at this flub.


Me 30, STBX 30
D3
M 8 years
BD 6/3/14
S 7/26/14
Off-and-on. PA since BD. Possibly "off" since Winter 2015?
Light Switch/I'm Over Her 12/31/14
D finalized 1/10/16
Re: Card29 VII [Re: Card29] #2518540
12/18/14 06:37 PM
12/18/14 06:37 PM
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 628
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zew Offline
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Card, that can be fixed with a little more bleach to make a nice camo pattern, or a lot more bleach to get a more consistent washed out look.

You trendsetter, you.

Re: Card29 VII [Re: zew] #2518559
12/18/14 07:40 PM
12/18/14 07:40 PM
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 3,319
U
uRworthy Offline
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uRworthy  Offline
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LOL, Zew...I like your style.

Card, Im sorry you are struggling so much right now. This really is tough stuff.

Here's the thing..it's all about acceptance of what is at this moment, with the knowledge that it will not always be like this.

I know it suckks. I know it is hard to see right now, but, you will be ok. You will be happy again.

So, you had hope. Nothing wrong with that. You can have it. You just dont want to live in it, ya know?

To me, having hope is living your life in the best way you know how and leaving the door open to the possibilities.

It's accepting what is and knowing that the future isnt written yet.

It's believing in you and your ability to rise above the struggles.

What can you do to make your present situation a better one?

I can think of a couple. Set some boundaries with your mom. Make walking the dog part of your exercise. Make new memories with your daughter.

Mostly, though, believe that life can be tough, but, it can be amazing, too.

You have been given a wonderful opportunity here...to become who you were meant to be. That probably wouldnt have happened had this not occurred.

And yea, I know, you wish you could have learned it in a different way..but, then, it would have been a different journey.

This is the one you got...what are you going to do to make it matter?

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