I thought everything was okay...(Part 2)

[MCS]

I think the second thread is sort of a rite of passage on this forum

Anyway, link to first thread Part 1

[MCS]

Well, nothing too groundbreaking this weekend.

Got some intel that W's two BFFs are 'done' with helping her in her sitch. The one BFF was guiding her through the S, but neither had any idea of OM initially. After I confronted W about OM, she talked to BFFs about the R. Not sure how much she told them, though. I guess both of them told her to drop contact with the OM, but she's not listening or talking with them about the sitch anymore. I see that W has dropped contact with almost all of her 'old' friends. These folks have been in our lives for ~15 years, so its a pretty big leap.

I guess she makes settlement on the house this week. I've asked her when she was going to come get her stuff and she seemed to deflect and said; I'll be moving things a little at a time. I said I think its best to move all at once. She said she would see when she could come. That was two weeks ago, no contact about it since.

[MCS]

Well, just got an email from the wife. She wants to come and get her stuff tomorrow. Now, its still just limited amount of things. Her clothes, some keepsakes and some household stuff. However, she said that she wanted to make it clear that she didn't want me there.

So, I've had enough of catering to her on these things. She's bought a house, switch finances, separated joint accounts, etc. with no input or consideration to me or the kids. Most everything has been on her terms and informs me after she has done it.

I sent an email back and said that I would be there and if she would like to come with someone to accompany her, than that was fine. I tried calling to discuss, but she won't (and hasn't) answer my calls, even though we have talked about increasing our communication at counseling. It seems like she just says 'yes' to everyone and then does whatever she wants anyway. That's one of the things she's done to alienate herself from a good portion of friends.

[MCS]

So, this email exchange has spun up a couple exchanges back and forth. Wow, there's some tension. I've been pretty collected on my replies, but I'm starting to get sick of her making out like I'm the one that isn't trying to work through this. She has stuff in there that tries to make me look like a bad guy in all of this.
I can see some of the stuff I reply back in there shows my frustration. I need to work on that.

She has said that she doesn't feel comfortable around me. I'm still unsure where all of that has come from. It never was an issue that she told me in the M, its just been since she has left it seems. Weird thing is its pretty much been NC after BD week. I guess hiding an A for 9 months may do that; but other than that I just don't know.

Anyway, some back and forth on finances. I can tell that there's a lot of stress in both of our conversation. She keeps doing things and gets mad when I explain that it affects both of us....like the house. I really hope that we can improve our communication, counseling is not really helping because she's doing her own thing outside of what we agree to do there anyway.

S5 told me that they went out for Ice Cream with OM, his GF and their son. Yeah, there's another boundary that she has not even given a thought of. Man my stomach turns when I here that she's around his GF and I so want to let the GF know, I feel so bad for her that this is happening under her nose. I know that would not be productive at all. Mind-reading, but I guess the chase is still on for W to prove to OM to leave his GF.

[MCS]

Went to MC today. Main goal was to go through a prelim separation agreement that I drafted up. Broke some rules of DB, because I was stuck in the moment. However, it seems like we made a lot of progress on our interactions.

Arrangements w/kids has been an issue for some time. I am struggling trusting her with the kids about things she's done, especially walking out the door. This led to discussion of R and how I feel. It got heated, then the MC took us one at a time for about 15 minutes. When we got back together, she told me that the issues in our M were not just me and she betrayed me and broke my trust for me and the kids, then she apologized. I said I'm trying to allow the trust come back to me, but its going to take some time. I thanked her for sharing those things with me. I could see that she was crying with the MC while I was not there. This is the first time that there was any remorse or apologized for what she has done in the M.

After that, we had the best conversation we've had since BD. Nothing more on the R, but arrangements for the agreement. It was so nice to have a talk that seemed like the person I've known was back.

No expectations, but feeling better about the future of our interactions whether we reconcile or not.

[MCS]

So still having a good PMA about our exchange today. I'm not sure of the next step. I sent her some follow up on the items that we talked about in the agreement. She didn't reply back at all, but I guess I assumed that would happen.

Anyway, I think its time to go dark again until counseling next week. The MC said that we need to become friendly with each other first before anything else would happen. It was a tough thing to go through today, but I'm encouraged by our interaction in the end. I'm still not sure if its a lie and she knows what to do to get me to soften up (she's done that before) but I think I just need to resist the urge to keep pushing it.

Mind reading (really just venting), but I'm also pretty sure she'll go back and talk to OM, he'll give her some bad advice, she'll believe that if she follows the advice it will get him closer to leaving his R and she will back down the friendly tone of communication.

[MCS]

So, if anyone can help me out. I'm looking for the next step...I think I'm just getting impatient because I saw the first glimpse of better interaction. Should I just hold tight or try to expand on some of the things in our weekly counseling (mediation) sessions?


So as I stated above, W had a fairly emotional apology to me @ counseling. Now, I told the counselor that this would be the first thing I needed to start to trust her, so I'm sure he clued her in on that. However, it seemed as if she hit the things that I thought it should. She accepted (some) blame on M issues, told me she betrayed me, needed to earn my trust, etc.


-------------------
She did let me in on a couple things before the apology while she was defensive it was all my fault, that I need to figure out. Some of this is I know is re-writing history (especially most of this was during A, not before,) but its how she feels right now. No. 1 here I can say I agree with her right now, especially because I'm having trouble trusting her.

1) She felt I had requirements on her in our M and now that we're separated; I'm still putting req'ts on her as a mom (I've been openly concerned in situations she's put the kids in)

2) She was overwhelmed Fall '13 and didn't feel like I helped her @ home at all. I do remember I was busy at work and kids were younger. I started do what she asked. (home earlier from work, help more w/kids.) I got confirmation from her directly and also a friend that W said I was better after that conversation and I was much better since then. However, This was also around the time when OM R started to take hold according to W.

2) Told me she 'shut down' after she told me she was unhappy last Nov. and I told her she was acting like a martyr (I did say this, I was mad at the time) I apologized later because it was too harsh and I had thought it was a 'bad day' thing at the time. Nothing much before or after that day about that argument or any other unhappiness.

3) She thought I was 'tracking' her cell phone. We had it turned on our phones for years and she started to not want to keep it on. I remember asking her why a couple times, but didn't think anything of it. I found out she told friends I was yelling at her about it (I never even was mad that I can remember, I was just confused why she was so adamant to keep it off and asked her a couple times.) This was during A time period.

[MCS]

So I talked to a friend today who had a thought on what W is currently doing with OM.

W has been spending time with OM and his GF since BD. If I believe W, he broke up the R right before she BD's in our M. So, I've thought my W is still pursuing him, trying to make him reconsider. She did tell me she tried 'anything' in July to get him to reconsider. So I'm sure there still an emotional attachment on her part still.

However my friend had a good point, maybe OM and GF are the only ones that aren't judgjng Her right now. OM knows the sitch and GF is clueless about it and see's W as a D victim right now. No one in our circle of friends knew of OM, when she left. However she was looked down upon by most people because of how she left the M, she walked out and left kids behind and went totally NC with almost everyone.

Anyway, I'm thinking my next step would be to try and walked the careful line of not judging, but still enforcing my boundaries. Not sure how to do that, but I know I need to stop the commentary on how I don't think she's putting the kids first in her life right now. I just don't know how to balance that and still protect them the way I think i need to at the moment.

[Vanilla]

MCS

If you can detach then judgement will cease. Judgement of others is a hard one because often we think we have the right and some actions are so wicked that it is in our nature to be repelled.

I have always been told to love the sinner but to hate the sin. In general judgement of others is a cancer to our soul whether that is to apply the Halo effect or to condemn.

Your W has and may still be behaving in a very wayward way, how wayward is hard to decide and truly you may never know. This is very hard but please take the higher ground with this. The resentment may hurt you more than anything, you seek to understand, to rationalise what is not to be understood or rationalised. None of the parties W, OM And OMGf are understandable. This is their business and ultimately one way or another they will resolve it. Then their actions will show it.

Trust has to be earned, love and trust are not mutually exclusive. You can chose to love and not trust, just as I don't nor probably ever will trust my H with money. You can trust her for other things, as a mum, with money, to drive to the moon, but not with your heart at this time. Trust can be fragmented and allowed in pieces. Hence when the time comes piecing.

MCS, you are a shing example of perseverance and understanding, losing judgement seems to be an excellent next step in your growth.

Vanilla

[MCS]

Vanilla,

Thanks for the kind wordS, I really do appreciate them.

I look back on the sitch and refuse to believe that this is the person that I love. When I finally was able to have a conversation this week, it renewed my hope.

I can understand how bad decisions and lies can begin to compound until it consumes and overwhelms the true person inside. I think that's where she is right now and I pray that she and her faith can get her out of this sitch. I think she can if she changes her mind that this is what is going to make her happy, I just need to have more patience than I'm comfortable that I have in me right now. I know I'll be all right in the end, I just need to work on my patience. That's where my growth will come. While I want W back for me, the kids are what is really allowing me to not get too frustrated right now. I said to someone, what's the harm in being patient 3,6,12 months to see if W can work this out for herself when it can affect the rest of your kids lives? I'm in a state with a one year wait period to file.

However, I still need to work on myself. I'm still struggling with her saying she feels emotionally unsafe around me. I partially attribute that to her pulling away for the last year as she has concealed her A. She was struggling with it, but since I was clueless, I had know way of empathizing with her. I remember when she would say things about her struggles generically, we would talk about her job, kids, house, etc. We would resolve the issues, or so I thought. I'm sure it was tough watching me 'tell her' about these things while she was struggling inside with something much more difficult. We always leaned on each other for emotional support throughout our M, so she/we didn't have the tools to deal with an emotional struggle that she couldn't tell me about. I just wish I had found out sooner so we could have addressed it while together.

For me, I know that I'm a pretty understanding guy, but I always revert to moderation and logic when dealing with issues. As you said, I need to let go of the logic and really concentrate on how she is very sensitive to my criticism right now. It's going to be tough..

[MCS]

Also, sending more smiles over to you, Vanilla. Here was the verse on my phone today.....

Consider it pure joy, my brothers and sisters, whenever you face trials of many kinds, because you know that the testing of your faith produces perseverance. Let perseverance finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything. (James 1 2-4 NIV)

[Vanilla]

Thank you
Returned x many

Vanilla

[Vanilla]

MCS

Now you have reflected, I know you have!

What precisely are your plans to release yourself from judgement of others?

Including W?

You know about the mote in the eye?

A good action plan is helpful, what is it?
Vanilla

[MCS]

You know about the mote in the eye?

A good action plan is helpful, what is it?

Vanilla,

Well I do now. Google is my friend.

Anyway, it does apply here. I think the main area that our M broke down that I was accountable for was the perception that I had requirements on her. Now, I look back and know that wasn't my intention ever, but that doesn't matter. We are where we are right now.

I can see that as we got busy with life, that my W was starting to feel that she could never 'live up' to my expectations. Now, it was quite the opposite and I always, always thought that she was a good wife/mom/professional. I never got angry when things didn't get done, especially since we did have a fairly good balance of work share with the kids and at home. However, I'm sure I'm guilty of showing that I may be annoyed once and a while. Normal marriage stuff. However, my main issue (she confirmed) with this is that I would just say that things needed to get done. I always used it as a generic statement with no expectations.

For example, if the kitchen was messy; I would say: "Oh, we need to clean the kitchen." Well, for her it was received as "Oh, you need to clean the kitchen." I can tell you there were really no expectations in what I said, I can say for me it was just listing a task that I didn't think needed to be done right away and furthermore I didn't feel like doing it at that point anyway. If I had the motivation later, I would do it. If not, I didn't expect her to do it.

Also, I knew that complacency took hold for me and I see that the positive reinforcement wasn't there from me. I guess from my standpoint that we had hit 'stride' in our lives. We had some ups and downs, but overall everything was going just fine. Well, that was from my point of view. Then as she was getting overwhelmed with things....and she felt that I expected her to do things like the paragraph above....and the intimacy was at a low, her self esteem started to drop. Well, then the friendship with OM started.

Anyway, that's the past. For now, I see that part of my struggle was that after BD, we went NC for a couple months. It was definitely dark as night. I knew that she needed 'space.' So I let her have as much as she needed. However, then she started to make some pretty hefty decisions that affected both of us without me at all. The house was the first huge one and that's when I confronted about OM. Well, OM took center stage for our interactions, until I realized that she wasn't ready to reconcile. However, since we had re-established communication; and she was still making pretty big decisions w/o me, I got reactive and guess what....expectations kicked back in. However now it was on her parenting. This was compounded with the destruction of my trust in her with me, but more notably with our kids. Especially, because from my point of view, I saw her putting OM above the kids both after BD but over the last year of our marriage. I

Well, since I put the temporary separation agreement together, I feel that those 'expectations' (really boundaries) are on paper. Before this, it didn't feel like she was honoring my verbal and email boundaries (she wasn't) and that's what got me in such a reactive situation especially as I was forced to be that way when she was making these huge decisions.

Anyway, for now my approach is to STFU with regard to her decisions, unless they violate our agreement. I debated if I could jump right into positive enforcement of her decisions; but a) I still don't agree with a bunch of them and b) if I did, at this point it would appear to be 'fake.'

Since she is just settling in the house and the holidays are coming up, I think I'm going to readdress adding some positive reinforcement after that. That's not to say, I'm going to shy away from any of it, but definitely try to keep it as reserved as possible.

So, MC (mediation) is tomorrow for us. She sent an email today saying she was going to talk about Holiday plans and her travel plans to her family. So, its good news because those both were part of the agreement. So it does look like she is honoring that right now.

Side note:

I do read over at HP thread right now and it feels to a certain extent that I'm being too accommodating if I act this way based on some of the Vets input to him. This change in me needs to happen, don't get me wrong. I'm just confused if I should be pushing for her to get her stuff out of the house and make like I'm moving on...

The difference I suppose its that, I do think that W realizes that the R with OM is over or won't go any further. So it may be that I'm in a different place in our sitch right now. IDK

[Vanilla]

I think your sitch is very different to that of HP.

To my eyes HP made the greatest changes before he and W split. He was very strong on the OM front, plus he had a lot of acceptance to do. In your sitch, it looks like the boundaries weren't set before the split and that now you will have to establish these. But actually as you are in the home with your children you can make the running.

If I were your W then I believe I would see your expectations especially about domestic harmony and cleaning as an attempt to control and possibly passive aggressive. Your W is separate from you and you are separate from W, neither should attempt to control the other.

Respecting her space is one great step forward and going dark should be for you. Two months isn't really a long dark period and not a lot of time to make impressive changes.

During the dark time did you GAL? Did you follow Sandis guidelines? What is different about you now after the dark period that would encourage W to give you a second look?

I am sure W doesn't agree with many of your decisions either. So detach and STFU. Validate her right to her opinions and if you don't agree and they are not to your benefit get L counsel and look after your rights in this.

There is quite a lot of discussions around the forums and a number of the vets are of the opinion that MC is a waste of money and effort if W has an active EA|PA (this is evident from the discussions on HPs thread). Mediation is useful in negotiating for your children and they must come first over everything. Whilst an A or its aftermath is going on then all discussion of progress in an R is irrelevant.
I firmly believe that OM is a symptom not a cause. MC may just be smoke and mirrors.

Frankly why should W honor any verbal or email boundaries?
I wouldn't unless I believed they were reasonable and H was strong on enforcing them. But then I am not in an A or affected by one. Under those circumstances I may choose to do what I pleased.

Your trust in W, why trust her and why should you expect to trust after an A? 100% of what they say etc

I don't trust my H any further than I can throw him. I don't expect to, it's unrealistic of me to do so. He is completely out of his own self control. That is how an A makes W behave, and her R with OM may or may not be over. Even if it over then the loss of the A can make W run down cheeseless tunnels for a long time. Her decisions will be out of kilter.

I am sure the vets will chip in if I am off beam here, but in order to move from stasis MCS then you need to Tango.

I am still awaiting your plan on giving up judging others.
Go GAL
Vanilla

[MCS]

Well, interesting counseling (mediation) session. She had sent an email prior saying she wanted to talk about Holiday plans. Well when we got started, she switched over to talking about permanently changing the kids' schedules. As you know, I've been pretty leery of sitch's she's put the kids in, last week we established that I'm having trouble trusting her and it would take me a while for her to earn that trust back. Well, I guess she figured a week was enough time, so she laid right in on it.

I reiterated (again) that the best sitch for the kids was for her to settle in her house, move her stuff out of our place and then we could figure out the schedule. We talked about this in our agreement.

There's a ton of issues that I'm going to have to let go but its not conducive to the kids' school, its about 25 minutes away and will add an extra hour onto their school schedule.

Well, when I said that we should wait until the things above, she blew up at me. I stayed calm and collected and just reiterated what we discussed this and other things in the agreement from last week. She continued to get madder at me. Anyway, this went on for a while complaining about a variety of things, but they were all the emotionally tough things in a separation that she's been avoiding. So as she would complain about something, me and the counsellor would try to get some compromise, but she wanted none of it.

Anyway, the weird thing was at one part, she said she didn't want to be in the house with me because she thought I may try to get her to do something. I was joking and said, "what would I handcuff you so you had to stay?" Well, she blew up saying how insensitive that was and it makes her feel horrible and anxious, etc.

Wow, I have no clue where this is coming from. As I've said before, she has said (after BD) that she feels emotionally unsafe (which I still can't figure out) with me. I've never had anyone say that they saw that about me as a person or in our marriage nor has she ever said it in the marriage. However, I partially bought into it until OM was discovered. Now, I think its a big and only part of her justification of the A and her reason for planning to leave me to be with him. This reaction that she had was so over the top that it almost seemed an act.

Anyway, I think this anger is a reaction to the fog lifting. Life seems to be setting in for her right now. She was supposed to make settlement on the house last week, but told me today it would be next week now. So something is wrong there. I think R with OM is either over or she knows it won't ever be anything more than an A with him. Last week she seemed pretty peeved that I had the kids for Xmas eve, but she's the one that made that schedule.

I saw that this session she was in the most distress emotionally, its almost like she was trying to regain control. I think this is part of my detachment last week and I kind of figured from reading here that the next step in the death of an A is anger at LBS. That along with the vulnerability she showed last week I think caused her to start realizing what is going on.


She definitely was not happy; and struggled with her not being able to get rise out of me. The counselor said at the end that this was the best exchange that we have had over the last couple months.

[MCS]

Vanilla,

We crossed posts, but you can see that I back-slid a little at our session today. Luckily, I had the seperation agreement as a basis to lean against as she tried to get a rise out of me, but I did bring up trust and the kids. I was really trying not to do that, but she threw a curve ball at me.

I do think that my detachment is helping me and getting her a little nervous as I see that as sandi2 says, W would smooth me over with some hope in R to get what she wanted. This has happened at least two times. Its apparent that I'm not standing for that anymore.

This weekend was my first weekend that I felt truly like I was starting to GAL. I need to formalize it more, but there's not much that I'm really interested in doing right now. However, emotionally I'm in a much better place right now. I get most of my GAL at work, but I know that I need to figure something out. Problem is I'm a home-body and almost all of my friends are married w/children. So I need to make that first big step.

As far as my plan for not judging, I need to do more homework. This is another one that if I look, I only see show up in my M based on what W says, no one else seems to have any issues with me passing judgment. I wonder if its because my M was the only place I let my guard down, I don't know. I guess that I have the tendency to think about people's decisions, but never do anything to show or comment on it. Maybe in my M, I did show it too much and now with the kids its manifesting again.

I can tell you honestly, I'm still resentful that she could walk out the door and instantly her expectation (and probably reality) is that my time being with the kids for the next 15 years is cut in half. That hurts....

To look at some of the constructive criticism I've gotten at work over the last 15 years, I guess maybe I can draw some parallels. I will say that folks know that I have high expectations of people, every once in a while unreasonable. When I say unreasonable, I mean about once or twice a year at work setting a deadline that is too difficult to meet. However to be a little boastful; I've always been very engaged in my career and a high performer.

I can say that a big wake-up call for me about 1 month after S was that I was temporarily 'removed' from my position in order to give me time to work on my personal life and take care of my family. It was an all-time low in my career and I'm still fighting to get back into the mix and show them that I have control of the stuff going on at work. However, maybe this high expectation tendency goes hand-in-hand with passing judgement.

Well, the other thing that has my PMA down right now is that I'm seeing just how complex the issues my W needs to address in order to get some resolution in this. I know I'm going to be fine however this turns out; its just tonight is one of those nights that it feels like we'll need a miracle.

[MCS]

Your W is separate from you and you are separate from W, neither should attempt to control the other.

Yep, I tried to not control anything and when it got that it was affecting me, I put the agreement in place and talked through it with her. The only control struggle we have right now is the kids.

During the dark time did you GAL? Did you follow Sandis guidelines? What is different about you now after the dark period that would encourage W to give you a second look?

Well, they may be surface items now, but all of the actual issues in our daily M life that she ever mentioned I have been doing exclusively. House, Kids, balancing work, etc.

I've followed her rules on interaction, showing I'm comfortable with myself. Most of the rules I have followed. Only issue is a lot of friends know what is actually going on, not because I told them; but they figured it out. I haven't talked with them about it, but W assumes I did.

Frankly why should W honor any verbal or email boundaries?
I wouldn't unless I believed they were reasonable and H was strong on enforcing them. But then I am not in an A or affected by one. Under those circumstances I may choose to do what I pleased.

Yep, she didn't. I never understood when I first got on here why people trying to save their M would put an agreement in place...now I know. We did talk and she agreed that most were reasonable, this week she's trying to push the envelope on them again. but that's why they're there.

Your trust in W, why trust her and why should you expect to trust after an A? 100% of what they say etc

I don't trust her, but I realize I need to balance out what's good for our kids compared to what I want for the kids. They need to see their mom, they miss her and every night ask why she won't come back. My W never has told me, but they say the same things to her and ask her to come back. Her ignoring them infuriates me. Since we have struggled to have any conversations about the kids, this balance has been tough to do. Especially trying to keep my emotions in check.

I am sure the vets will chip in if I am off beam here, but in order to move from stasis MCS then you need to Tango.

Agree on that, I need to re-read that section

I am still awaiting your plan on giving up judging others.
Go GAL
Vanilla

Yep on both. I did some prelim work in the last post, but I need to think about that one more universally.

Thanks as always Vanilla.

[MCS]

So got an email from W about logistics of separation. Basically, she sent a list of the big items in the house, said she wants me to go through and add things she forgot, but will not come in the house to go through and create and inventory. Also, said any convo about it she wants a third party there.

So this is more of this 'unsafe' thing with me and not wanting to do anything without someone else. This is so out there for me. There is absolutely nothing to warrant her acting like this. I wonder if this is a ploy from L to try and make her justify abandoning the family. I don't know it's really weird. We can't even talk about the kids w/o counselor. All of our interactions have been fairly calm.

Mind reading.....This coupled with avoiding the house and everything else about her past life seems that she is just trying to move on and knows that she's emotionally vulnerable about her decision and is trying to do everything possible to move on. Almost like she's countering the DB by detaching herself.

Also, I got an Xmas card from FIL. Anyway, he wrote a note saying he was praying for me and hopes things work out somehow. It was really nice and made me cry. W was never real close to him and a lot of her issues I think were she never thought she could live up to his expectations, which is what she said about me also. Anyway, weird thing is since we have S, she has stayed w him twice when she was travelling up that way over the weekends. We never really spent time with him before, just Xmas eve. So, it's good to know that he feels that way and it is one person that W seems to have connected with at least informally after S.

So I really want to send a letter back thanking him for the card, but should I? And what should I say? I hope we can work it out too? Or just like Thank You?

[edz]

Hi MCS

My sitch is different to yours as there isnt anyone else involved but I can certainly empathise with the splitting things aspect.

I was at the apartment we shared after W left with S and when I decided to move (and she was moving back - see my thread for details) I effectively had to split everything and pack / resolve everything myself.

Of everything in the place she only went through our vinyl albums and did it in a half hearted way.

Just before moving she then started to pick at my decisions and changed her mind on what she wanted to keep and even after I arranged the move, the removals and went she was still asking why I had certain things.

In short, you are not alone in this. We as LBS(es) are being moved "away" from in their minds I think, in the books you'll see that most WASs have already done this way before we are told. I didn't get that my W didn't see me as her H then (and probably not now at least yet, maybe never) so thinking she'll see things the way we would when we got ready to move in the past was my view not catching up (as always hindsight is perfect).

She simply wanted the place sorted so she could get on (in my case so she could get out of MILs house before they strangled each other but thats another problem completely).

I know how gut crunchingly difficult this is for you to be going through, its bad enough to have significant people wanting to go but then to have to face all the historical proof of your life together just magnifies it. All I can offer you is this, I'm 3 weeks into having moved away and W moved in. I'm in no way up to my full GAL or full PMA but work on them every day (Vanilla makes sure of that!) and while I have down days having sorted that move and gone past it is the most positive thing that happened since BD. In my case it also meant seeing my S more which is not the case in your sitch but I can say that this may be hard but it will pass eventually regardless of your eventual outcome and things will become easier.

Keep posting and hang in there,

Edz

[MCS]

Edz

Yeah, I'm in the house and she left. The same fear of her second guessing everything later is with me too. Mainly its because it's total avoidance of everything for her. She has totally walked away from everything. Even the kids at first. That and she still wants the $$$ of what's left. At least that's what she said initially. I'm not letting down on this, it's part of separation. We've been in the house 10 years, so there's ton of stuff to go through. She's going to have to eventually do it anyway.

I sent her an email back saying I'm not comfortable with the approach she is taking with this. I said if she feels like she doesn't want to do it herself, ,I'll go through the stuff with some she designates. Trying to give her some options.

[okjpc]

MCS,
How is it for you being in the house still? I know for myself it's really tough - reminders of the life we had everywhere. But it sounds like you're doing ok with it.

[MCS]

Interestingly enough, it hasn't been that bad. Some on here take pictures down and stuff, but I've kept just about everything around.

So, when W left, she packed just a suitcase. She's been in the house once and got some things, but everything else is still here including almost all of her clothes. You wouldn't think at all that she's not here. She keeps saying that she was waiting for her house to get the rest of her stuff, but now that she's settling on it, it still seems like she is avoiding coming back like the plague.

She told me something about her not feeling like its her home. Again, no real clue what that means; but I think it was in reference in her telling me that she had become someone that is not the 'real her'. I guess she associates the house with her 'old life.'

[paul19510]

My stbxw did and said the same things...it appears to be a script WASs tend to go through. I used to wonder why she felt the way she did. Now i don't.

[MCS]

Yeah, I realized that for the last year or so, she 'acted' like everything was just fine. I think I know why she didn't feel comfortable in the house or me, because she was spending a lot of her time and effort trying to cover up EA/PA. I just hope she can get out of her fog now that that R seems to be over.

[Vanilla]

MCS

Changing the environment, what does it do for you?

It is lots of GAL points especially if Chums, family, come yielding a paintbrush or screwdriver, add a pizza...
It shows you've made a change to yourself and the world
It reclaims your space and freshens, great for PMA

H and I live in the same house but
1. I have painted, just white with a hint of white over white
2. Decluttered the kitchen cupboards, thrown away broken crocks, glasses and out of date food
3. Deep cleaned carpets, washed windows and curtains, scrubbed stone floors
4. Replaced light bulbs, broken lamps, sockets, cleaned lamps and shades
5. Generally repaired broken stuff
6. Removed trees which blocked light, weeded garden, replaced broken fence, winter flowering pansies
7. Took down pictures of 'us' and replaced with pictures of family including H grandchildren
8. Swapped pictures around
9. Got a cleaner and gardener to maintain
10. Repainted wooden window sills
11. Put the house on the market

Next (thanks gg) shoes and clothes

Why?
I am showing acceptance, I want a new life with or without H
Stopping memory triggers
It's great GAL
Good for my PMA
Looks and smells better
It prepares for moving

Fits my interpretation of Sandi guidelines perfectly and can create a new vision of home which may make your W comfortable with.

A 180
A tidier
Vanilla

[MCS]

Vanilla,

Yeah, I actually have been doing stuff around the house, its always been something I've enjoyed. I've upgraded stuff, added under counter lights, all kinds of other things. What I meant in my post that the W's stuff is all still here.

[MCS]

Also,

It looks like the environment is going to change. W sent an email that SIL is coming over tomorrow to go through our stuff. I guess, it was an option that I gave her, but still is ridiculous that we are at this point.

SIL is actually the best person I could think to do it. She's close to both of us, has lived with us before and the last I talked to her ~3 months ago was just as concerned with my W's actions as most people.

I'm kinda mad that W asked her to do this, but that's not my responsibility. I realize that this is probably as tough for SIL as its going to be for me. I just need to keep a PMA and lighthearted through it.

[Mozza]

Not sure why you're mad? You are separating and you offered this option. Your W just went with it. I wonder if you were hoping she'd say "Fine, I'll do it myself". Don't get into a power struggle with your W, some passive aggressive way of making her do things without asking directly. It's destructive, but more importantly it's not something you would want in an actual relationship.

Also, be very, very careful not to let on too much to your SIL. Everything you say will be reported to your W, as close as you may feel to your SIL. Act as if your W is in the room: you didn't want this separation, but you're moving on, you look happy. The payoff will be much higher than in your interactions with your W because it will be reported by a third person to her. "He looks great, like he's moving on." The idea is to give her the impression that you're coming on top, that you're attractive and have an interesting life. This will be extraordinarily difficult, but a crucial step in your sitch. Go for the Academy Award. Courage.

[MCS]

Mozza

Thanks, you're right. I guess I did have some expectations that W would have started to deal with some of the things she needs to deal with for working her emotional issues. The avoidance of everything in her old life is wearing on me. That combined with this whole feeling unsafe with me is starting to affect me. A friend of mine keeps explaining it as the fact that she is threatened by me. Although it's not how I think of threatening. She says that W is confused and probably struggling. When I act as if I'm moving on, its causing just the reaction that is needed for DB. I guess the word unsafe is what was getting to me, but really it's probably that I'm going to be just fine when she is feeling she is struggling, IDK.


Also, thanks for the 2x4 for what my should be mood in it. Since I had someone that I sort of trust and was seemingly seeing things the way I see it in the R, I probably would have pushed the DB aside because it wasn't directly with the W. That would have been a bad move.

[Vanilla]

MCS,

I am not as negative about SIL as Mozza is. I do agree be careful, but is your chance to shine.

I am going to paint this wall lime green with purple dots, what do you think SIL?

If I am going to refresh the bedroom/kitchen/hallway what would you and BIL suggest? Can I talk to you about new drapes. I value your opinion and BIL on ........"
Guaranteed you wiill get some practical help AND present PMA with an opportunity to do more.

"I would like to thank you and BIL for your help in this, can we arrange lunch with (kids) if any?"
Etc

An 8 Sandi guidelines interaction, I have started measuring my interaction in Sandi guideline points!
Vanilla

[MCS]

Vanilla, Mozza,

Thanks, yeah it should be interesting. SIL texted me this morning and obviously made an attempt to try and make this as smooth as possible. Asking when the best time was to stop over and all. Much different than email from W to me that had it listed in pretty much legal date, year, time, etc.

So I called SIL back with a PMA and said I was flexible anytime and asked a few questions like are we just going through stuff or moving it, etc. She also said she wasn't sure, she just found out yesterday that this is happening.

Then we texted back and forth and already smoothed stuff over about the value of the stuff in the H. Knowing SIL, I think I can tell that she's annoyed to be doing this, she texted "So, my purpose is to go through the list and see if you to agree to her assessment of value of items" Anyway, don't want to mind-read her, I already know where she stands.

How this all started when W and I talked, W wanted half the $$, so I said we needed to assign value to everything before she would take it to keep track. I texted SIL, that I don't care about the value, just it seemed as if W did based on what she sent me. SIL said SIL knows what W wants and value doesn't need to be assessed then. I'll need W to send me an email directly at some point on that to cover my behind. Anyway, typical thing in all of this, lack of communication. W refuses to talk w/me outside of mediation. I'm trying to walk the careful line of being strong and confident in this almost exclusively through email communication. I've always said email is a horrible communication tool as you can read text with a context of any emotion that you feel at the time. That part makes it harder

[MCS]

Vanilla,

Also, house is in tip-top shape for SIL. I do think I agree with you that I need to drive home the changes in the house that I'm going to make now that W is not here.


Thanks for your response, its helping me out like always. I've already got some things put aside that are W's for when SIL comes.

[MCS]

Well, that was fun.....

I guess it went as good as could be expected. Only a couple things W wanted that I didn't agree with. SIL definitely made it clear that she was not the one to negotiate, which I was fine with.

Her and I went through a couple closets to box W's stuff. At one point I asked her if W would want something and she said, "its your call, if she can't get the courage to do this herself" (I definitely censored that comment)

Anyway, SIL is definitely not agreeing with W, we didn't talk about the R at all really. She just said she is doing whatever she can to help us out. Funny thing is, there's two other friends of ours that W took advantage of that said the same thing at first. She said I look like I'm doing good, but she can tell its tough for me. She pointed at me referring to the weight I had lost.

They only thing I said was "Well, this is her decision, so I need move on right now." I did say that I wish that W would have more communication with me about kids, house, property, etc. since we only talk 30 minutes a week.

When she was saying goodbye, I could tell we both were at the point we were going to lose it and had a hug, a 'talk to you later' and then she rushed out the door. Good thing because about 2 minutes later, I cracked. Feeling better now, but definitely it hit me again about what it going on.

Well, next step is to get the furniture she wants out. Of course W scheduled something already when I'm at work (along with an appraiser) even though we have an agreement that we would not enter the other person's residence. I guess we can talk about that on Tuesday during counseling (mediation.) So much for written agreements right now.

[Vanilla]

MCS
Stick to the agreement and ensure W does.

Otherwise change the locks, the date and time should be agreed by the two of you.

By the way, you did really well with SIL, who sounds very grounded and straightforward. The whole thing is truly difficult but MCS, it is as good as it gets.

Proud of you

Vanilla

[MCS]

Yeah, SIL is a great gal. She's had a tough life, single mom, dead-beat baby's dad, stressful job, etc. She's always looked up to W, so this is especially tough. I heard that SIL Said when this all started that she can't help W, because she can't commiserate that W had anything bad in her life compared to most people. Also heard she said she would kill for someone like me in her life and doesn't understand why W is doing this. It was a good boost for me earlier on in the crisis.

Yeah, I'm struggling with W upholding the boundaries. We tried verbal and that didn't work, now it's written but not legal, hopefully it doesn't go further cause it gets really expensive. It's just W says whatever to get me and/or counselor to be appeased and does whatever she wants anyway. Just trying to let that stuff roll off my back as long as it doesn't affect kids, finances or property.

Thanks again for the pep talk. It really wasn't too big of a deal going through it with her, but it stinks that we're at this point. I guess I'm really worried that W will stick to her decision even though she knows it's not going to make her happy. She's a very determined person, one thing that attracted me to her; but a lot of times is so determined she causes herself to self-destruct. I guess I need to leave that up to faith.

[MCS]

So, I'm getting so upset that W doesn't communicate with me at all w/o being at counsellor (mediation.) it's so annoying, I just can't let it go. she said she wants to communicate more especially with the kids. She wanted me to send pictures of things with the kids. I've sent 10 over the last few weeks and have gotten no response at all. Today, sent an email and asked a question, no reply. At one point she sent me an email that if I need to get in touch with her, send her a text and she will determine if it's important enough to get back to me.

Any suggestions? I guess it's why I had to put the agreement in place, but it still is really frustrating.

[Vanilla]

Do you think that the more you chase for communication, the less W communicates. Time for small thank you gift for SIL, something for the family I think.

I would pull back a little and stop chasing. She will decide if it's important enough?

She wanted you to send pictures, you have sent 10, try a 180 don't send any and see what happens. I would take the pictures though and have them as memories for you.

Limit your questions to the children and very important things.
MCS enjoy your life, go GAL and enjoy your children.
Regards
Vanilla

[MCS]

Thanks Vanilla,
I didn't even think about gift for SIL, great idea. I sent her a gift card.

Yeah, the communication (email) that I initiate is like 1x per week, usually she'll send me something 1x and I'll respond back to those.

so as far as pictures, right after she left; I sent her some pictures of S5's first week of school back right after she left and she didn't respond back then. So I stopped sending, then she told me she thought I was witholding stuff about kids from her. So that's when I started sending stuff again like I said above.

Yeah, I've only sent her important stuff, bills, kids, etc.

Anyway, you're right. I need to detach more. Not only is this wearing on me, it's ruining my PMA. This is not the person I married. I'm just sick of the drama and the rejection. I don't expect her to be a W right now, but at least we need to work out the business part of separating and she is running from nearly all of it. I need to GAL. Kids come back tomorrow, so happy about that.

[Mozza]

So, I'm getting so upset that W doesn't communicate with me at all w/o being at counsellor (mediation.) it's so annoying, I just can't let it go. she said she wants to communicate more especially with the kids. She wanted me to send pictures of things with the kids. I've sent 10 over the last few weeks and have gotten no response at all. Today, sent an email and asked a question, no reply. At one point she sent me an email that if I need to get in touch with her, send her a text and she will determine if it's important enough to get back to me.

Any suggestions? I guess it's why I had to put the agreement in place, but it still is really frustrating.

Don't expect your W to adjust to your expectations or demands, no more than you'd expect a giraffe to climb a tree. Don't expect it at all. It won't frustrate you then. Take note of how she acts and adjust accordingly. To me, it's not difficult at all; like some technical challenge that I don't take personally. She doesn't follow up on commitments? Noted. She doesn't respond to texts and emails? Noted. Don't give her the pleasure of disappointing you.

Also, note that you are still trying to control her. There's a hint of "it's a matter of principle" in your reaction. Does that suggest that you wouldn't be any different if she came back, forcing her to react a certain way at a certain time to avoid your criticism or anger? Practice letting go: it will be good for you in your next relationship, with her or another.

[MCS]

Yeah, it's tough. Most of the stuff I say here is just on the board. Doesn't get back to her, but I guess if I'm frustrated I still feel that way regardless if she knows.

Got a reaponse today. She gave me her plans on moving. That's good. Only issue with the whole thing is after SIL separated everthing she wants a 'credit' of not dividing our stock account. Says I got the more expensive stuff (i didn't ask for anything really, I just agreed with what she wanted to take) If I say nothing on that it will work out in the end, I guess. Just another thing to note after agreeing with her that the value of the stuff didn't matter, than this.

Well, better PMA today. I've got the kids back, a fire in the fireplace and dinner in the oven. We're all sitting on the couch just chilling. Call that a win.

[MCS]

Vanilla,

Thanks for the idea of the gift for SIL. She texted me a thank you this morning and I said no problem, she didn't have to do what she did. She then texted me again that she was pretty upset with W that she had her do that when she thought she was coming down (they live far away) to hang out with W. SIL said she had "some words" with W on that and it wasn't fair to her or her son. All I replied back was "I know, not much of this makes sense at all."

Man, I hope W gets out of her fog. In a weird way, it's comforting that other folks see how different W is from the person we all know.

[Vanilla]

What's this credit?

There maybe a boundary issue coming up here.

Glad you have someone grounded like SIL around, I believe in gratitude anyway. It's a core belief of mine.

Regards
Vanilla

[MCS]

Well, its good that I've read through others sitch's and sandi2 posts. My WAS is progressing through the stages to a tee. I can tell she's at the point that the fantasy of what she is doing is starting to break down and the ability to focus the cause of the anger at the LBS is starting to diminish. I think she's starting to come out of the fog maybe and the anger about the sitch in general is taking hold.

So at counseling (mediation,) she was livid today about agreement about our stuff that SIL made. I said that this was her decision to send SIL. I offered multiple times to sit with W, W and someone else together or someone in place of W. She said yeah, but SIL didn't choose what W wanted her to. I tried to validate, but said this was the approach she wanted. We could start again, if she really wanted to.

At one point, she got really angry and snapped "This isn't fair" I replied "Nothing about this situation is fair." She then changed from angry to more reserved and said "Your right, there's not much fair going through this"

I said that we can try to improve our communication in order to work these things better. She said she wasn't ready to communicate with me directly. I said that's fine, but we also don't need to finalize this stuff (property/money) separation now. I said we can slow down, we're not getting D tomorrow. Our S is working out from a daily activity perspective right now and we can wait to work some of these things out prior to D. I then said "You made it clear that you wanted us to be S and I'm listening to you. I'm moving on, you made a decision and I'm trying to honor it."

Anyway, it was another weird session that she came in really angry and then changed her mood when she saw that I was still calm and collected. It really seems like she's struggling with this. I just need to make sure that I don't get too business and the path home would be too hard for her.
___________________

Vanilla,

As far as a 'credit,' she had sent me an email saying that since I chose the more expensive stuff in the house, that she wanted to not split our modest stock account equally.

[MCS]

Went back and read my interactions with W from last week. She was definitely in the same place that she's in this week, but even more pronounced. ANGER

I saw the same reaction when I appeared calm, she kept increasing the rhetoric until she hit a point and then backed down. After that, we had somewhat of an interactive conversation. I guess it will be like this for a while.

Also, she did say at one point today "The kids keep begging me to come back home, but there's no way I can see that happening" Probably not the best response, but its actually progress that she's acknowledging that they are struggling.

[Vanilla]

MCS
Do nothing more. Keep the stock account intact as it is, there are compromises you can make for S and his education perhaps. In the future, there is no hurry.

The ball is no longer in your court. You handled the interaction very well indeed, let her keep on with the cheese less tunnel until she finally tires of it. And she will, eventually. No volunteering or being generous will help. You have set your boundary, this was the way she chose, you agreed. W hasn't had the result she wanted, you offered to modify, she flaked. Now wait, keep quiet, repeat the boundary if needed but don't offer anything further.

Keep on becoming only a man a fool would leave.
You need time and you have it

This can turn overnight see Rzr thread.
Vanilla

[MCS]

Vanilla,
Yeah you are right I think I'm pretty comfortable with the situation right now because it's following the script that other people say on here. I think right now I just need to make sure that we are at the point that her and I Do not do anything too rash decisions anymore. think that she understands that if we rush this and do it without communicating that we are both going to be very upset. I guess that's all I can hope for right now and just let it go.

I also feel a lot better about myself right now and where I am in the situation. In saying that I still need to go back and look and figure out what you asked me on how I can let go of judgment of other folks. I didn't forget about that, still been thinking a lot about it.

[Vanilla]

MCS

I hadn't forgotten the judgement question either, so was planning to ask you if being on this site had changed anything at some stage.

By involving ourselves with those who are different to us, ages, sexes, sitches, backgrounds and knowing that they give us help, understanding, support, 2x4, we expose ourselves to love. This site is overflowing with love and connection, despite the pain there is growth and love. The real non judgmental stuff. There will never be judgement when there is a connection to love. I believe in the stuff, boodles and boodles of it, there is no shortage, it pours from every thread. Love isn't a cake with a limited number of slices, there is more than enough to go round and more coming.

One of the writers that I often offer to beginners at Gamanon is Mike George, he is about spiritual development and writes about Love Actually. If I were to offer you any book then it would be that one. The practice of active love is contained within and the letting go of judgement and attachment. This is not any kind of book on M or D but on spiritual growth and is beautifully written. Sadly there is as yet no Ted talk on his work.

I will leave you MCS to keep mulling on this.

Your fellow traveller

Vanilla

[MCS]

W came over today to go through her things prior to move tomorrow. I was cordial, talked a little to her friends and helped them a little. She's getting a crew to move the stuff out tomorrow. W definitely was quiet through all of it, didn't say too much at all. I know why she didn't want to do this, I think it's next chapter of reality hitting her. Her overall attitude was pretty miserable from what I saw, interacting with friends only to provide them directions.

[Vanilla]

MCS

Let reality hit in full. This is W and this is her choice, time for her to learn that actions have consequences.

Kindness

Vanilla

[MCS]

Yep, reality provided. I keep thinking back to a sandi2 post that said, don't try to force WAS to deal with their decisions, real life has the habit of doing that for them anyway.

[MCS]

So, stuff out of the house....W had some friends, 2 friends we knew together 2 that I've never met or really heard her ever talk about before.

So, I was pretty peeved that she brought someone to help her from our church, a decent acquaintance of both of ours, and obviously she was talking bad about me with them.

He asked me at one point when he first arrived if 'this' was something we were working on. I said, it was a surprise to me that she was unhappy and that she didn't want to work on M. He then said W told them that W felt like a 2nd class citizen around me. Judging by his look, it was almost like he knew he didn't believe that about me and was asking to see what I would say. All I said to him was "I'm the same person at home as I am when you see me" At that point, I started to tear up and I said; I just hope she works out what she needs to and I'm trying to support her in that. I think at that point he realized that there's something amiss in the whole sitch.

It took everything I had to not truly defend myself. Most of our closer friends have been seeing both sides and have come to their own opinions. This person, I care what he thinks about me, but I know I just had to stop and let it go. Saying anything else would not be good.

Well little did I realize, it didn't take long for others to figure out truly what was going on. A guy that I had no clue who he was came up to me at the end and said. "I didn't realize what I was getting into tonight. I now see what's going on. My W did the same thing to me, dropped the bomb on Xmas eve. Don't talk to W for the next month, she'll be angry no matter what you do or say." Then he gave me his # and told me to call him if I needed to talk to someone. No clue who he was, but a classy act to say the least.

So I was kind, helpful and had a good PMA. I realize now that did more than anything I could have said to show people the person I am. OM's BFF was there, I'm guessing W didn't know that I know that he is friends with OM. I've never met him before. Anyway, I have no clue how much he knows about W and OM, but I'm guessing he's having some doubts about what W says about me, but it doesn't matter.
_____________________
No rest for the weary...

Stuff's out, time to hit ikea this weekend to start getting settled back in to MY house. Here's the list

Add more under cabinet lights in kitchen
Paint ugly coffee table lurking down the basement for 8 years for Family Room
Buy a kitchen table
Replenish [some] of the kitchen utensils (I had no clue how to use 90% of what we had anyway)
Paint master bathroom. Sea-foam green....gone. Man-ly gray on its way
New bed frame in guest room
[Try] to expand my clothes from the 1/3 of the walk-in closet to the WHOLE closet as well as try to figure out what to do with a whole other dresser

[Mozza]

I'm impressed. You spoke with your actions and accomplished more than anything you could have said. I'm also impressed at the restraint you showed with your church friend. It will speak for you much more than if you defended your case.

You've accomplished a lot today. This is a marathon. You're doing well. Enjoy your shopping.

(It all makes me wonder what my W told her colleagues when they came to move her out of our apartment. I think it's very little, like "we're not compatible and it's complicated", but I wonder, especially that a month later, she was openly with one of them...)

[MCS]

Thanks Mozza,

Yeah not trying to keep score, but it was apparent that W's attitude toward me was much different than my attitude to her. She was very rude one-on-one w/ me. At one point I said "what do you need next" and she said "for you to get away from me." I just walked away.

However, she couldn't tone it down enough when others were around that it wasn't apparent how she was treating me.

Anyway, its done. I don't want to be in an R with the person she is acting like right now. The people that love her the most see the same thing, like SIL. I just hope she can work this stuff out within herself. That's where faith comes in that this is truly beyond my control.

I've not detached enough, but my IC and I went over my goals that we established from right after BD. I've accomplished all of them to the extent that I have control, so now its just a waiting game. The goals were

1) Establish stability for S5 and D4 (got it)
2) Re-establish some communication with W to discuss non-R things (as good as I can get it right now)
3) Understand what caused W not to share with me troubles in M (hiding A)
4) Understand why W left w/o wanted to work on M (Understand some issues in M, but also understand affect of A)
5) Understand how to teach the importance of M commitment to S5 and D4, if this ends in D (Long term goal, but DB is the first step)
6) Try to work on R with W (Opportunity is there for her if she wants it)

[Mozza]

Interesting. I would have phrased #4 differently because to me the answer (why no work?) is obviously OM. The question, at least in my M, is why was my W vulnerable to OM? I blame some of her upbringing and perspective on love, but mostly I know that I left the door wide open for an OM. She told me multiple times that she wasn't happy in our couple and I was way too slow in addressing her concerns, just having heart-to-heart discussions, reducing the criticisms, etc. Well, you know my sitch.

I find it more healing when I think of what I've done wrong to get me here. It gives me back some control. Also, no healthy reconciliation talks will start with you (us) laying thick on them about falling for an illusion, betraying their W vows, etc. This will come much later, ideally from them. Our opening lines will have to be about our faults, about what we've understood.

If you look at Card29's thread, there's a great conversation with his W about the impact of his porn addiction on his M. It opens plenty of floodgates, even though it starts with W laying it thick on him for his failings. I've been following your sitch for a while and I'm yet to really understand what you did to get here. Everything you shared seemed pretty tame, especially compared with what your W is saying and how she's acting. Sure, she's in the fog, but is she really making it all up? Remember that things look very different to the aggressor and victim. The treat and harm are way worst on the receiving end.

Quick anecdote: In 2009, the day after my W lifted her threat to leave me, I told her she'd have to regain my trust that she wouldn't do it again (ha-ha-ha). Her reaction was more or less: "Come on, aren't you being a bit dramatic?" She had no idea of what I had gone through, while it was the greatest pain of my life.

Perhaps you're an unlucky great guy. Everyone around me is stunned that my W left me. Apparently, I'm hot chit and I didn't know it (or my friends are family are just nice to me). But I know how I failed her and I wasn't that hot as a H. So I would rephrase Q4 to focus it on your shortcomings, regardless of OM and A.

[MCS]

Mozza,

I hate to say it but I still can't peg any one or even a couple things onto how our M fell into this. I truly thought that everything was okay and actually that this was one of the better years in our marriage. We traveled a lot, had more family focus, more spontaneity in what we did, etc.

I know a good part of my W's past before me and she does have a lot of stuff that never fully got resolved with IC over the years. I wonder if there was PPD after our daughter was born which brought some of this back into light. But that's her and not the question about me.

I'm a pretty introspective guy and look at my own faults a lot even prior to this and I know that I have issues to address, but the sum of those parts doesn't equal the whole.

I've had a couple theories, but they've all been shot down by the vets. That's one of the reasons I high-jacked your thread, because of what 25years said about multiple A. It could be that it is that all of these things affected it, but I'm still not sure. Especially how she's acting right now with interactions. One of the other things is that in my sitch, this OM had been going on for quite some time; so I think a piece of it is guilt. I don't think she's told me everything and is fearful to my reaction if I found out. I paved the path smoothly on this already when I confronted about OM, but I think there's more she's not saying.

Here's the things for me that I know contributed and I need to change:

1) I was complacent in focusing on our marriage and us as a couple
2) When the kids were born, I saw my role as a dad first, husband second. I treated her that way too, mom first
3) I focused too much satisfaction on my work life
4) Her and I struggled with boundaries when it came to time with or away from the family
5) I was too quick to solve her problems instead of just listen
6)I didn't validate or react with enough changes when she told me she felt overwhelmed
7) I never reacted to changes in our communication method after we had kids. (I voiced my feelings, I thought she did too)

IDK, I don't want to sound like I'm trying to scapegoat. But I really don't know exactly the combination of things that did this.

[MCS]

Well, shopping weekend started off with a bang...

Bumped into OM while shopping. Before he saw me, heard him talking to someone else about our sitch. Just talking about W and her new place. Then I heard him say something about MCS not letting W have kids. Now, I can say I'm not sure exactly what he said. I did say to W to get settled in new place before we should talk about week-on/week-off (which I don't agree with in the first place.) But just to clarify, W has kids as I type.....

However, it sounded something like "MCS told W that she couldn't have kids unless she got a house." Well, that's BS. She didn't even talk to me between the time she left and the time she bought the house. MCS think W is lying to a lot of people that don't know MCS about how bad of a guy MCS is. That and talking in third person is addictive....

Anyway, then I walked around the corner and it went like this:

"Hey, OM. What's going on?"
(with look of fright) "Oh, Hi MCS, what are you up to?"
"Just shopping for some kitchen stuff."
"Oh"
"You staying in town for Xmas, OM?"
"Yeah, family lives here."
"Oh, well have a Merry Xmas"
"Yeah, you too"

So, good thing is obvious the R is still on the down low or over, because I don't think he'd be talking about W the way he was if he was thinking of moving in. (remote fear of mine)

Second, it's a good thing OM's GF was not there, because that temptation would have been just a little too much for MCS not to slip.

Oh well, I guess I passed the test from the man above. Hopefully, he's proud of me.

[TLEE86]

MCS, congrats on how you handled that run in with OM. I know personally I would not have been able to do that and it just shows how much you've grown to be able to say the things you did.

Think about it from a 3rd person POV. You just wished your W's OM Merry Christmas and sounded cordial and polite. That takes some (censored) balls...rather than jump down his throat. Keep up what you're doing and continuing to take the high road

[MCS]

Thanks a lot, It's a lot easier to not feel guilty when the person that you are betraying is acting like a jerk. I think that's part of the issue with W's interactions with me and over the last year.

I'm a pretty laid back guy and to boast, generally very caring and in tune with people's emotions. I've been that way for a while, but really have to be that way at work since I have a lot of people with various backgrounds on the team of people I lead.

In saying that, that's why it's so weird that W says she feels emotionally unsafe with me. I can say that when I confronted her about OM and she just kept lying to me, I lost my temper and yelled at her on the phone. Mainly because I was so mad that she left me and her family in a lie and had no plans to tell anyone what was really going on.

In saying all of this, I am passive aggressive, so maybe that's part of why I can stay even-keeled in times like this. I also knew whatever I said to OM would
A) get back to my W as soon as I was out of site
B) maybe, just maybe start having OM 2nd guess some of the things my W says about me.

[Vanilla]

Nice interaction with OM, MCS, that is DB in style and class. A lesson in detachment and poise.

There will be some contributing factors by you, but I am very sure that there are sitches (like mine too) where frankly it's the WAS that just goes dancing to a different tune. It sure wasn't my actions that triggered it but it was what I did next that really caused the damage.

My major reactions 'screaming banshee' and 'plain Vanilla' were my main problems that drove the final nail in the coffin of my M. Pure anger, fear and pain and that's ugly, completely out of character for Vanilla. H responded with total vitriol and abuse. Have you ever seen the dementers in Harry Potter? Well there you have it! Screaming banshee v dementer. Made for a happy home. Not.

I did not have DB then nor calmness. It's surprising the difference that 6 months of DB can make in one's life, I will never be like that again. I sense the same is true of you MCS, and you have moved to that detached space more smoothly.

Groovy Cool
Vanilla

[Vanilla]

There was one gem in there though.

W felt like a second class citizen around you. Think maybe it's time to address the judgement thing?

Mr class offered his number, if I were you, I would ring and reach out.

Vanilla

[MCS]

Vanilla,

Thanks, I'm really starting to think that was what happened. I think that W really didn't know what was involved with parenting and saw MCS attentive and self satisfied as a dad, but W never seemed to 'settle' in to being a mom. W was a great mom, but struggled with her own individuality during it. Then, MCS was satisfied with his job, but W was not in hers (always had friendly competition between us.) Then W got overwhelmed and saw MCS just peachy keen in the M (around same time as friendship with OM.) That's when the resentment started. MCS made some changes once he found W was struggling, but not enough to counteract the resentment and blossoming A with OM. OM had focus on W and was just her and him having fun.

Some of this below was confirmed by W, but there has to be more than she said.

MCS thinks A went too far emotionally and W took it to the final level physically (she denies this.) MCS still peachy keen in M, but W makes a decision to be 'happy' with OM. Asks OM about it, OM says no thanks. Then W feels guilty around peachy keen MCS and is still trying to get OM to change his mind. Drops bomb on MCS and normally confident MCS is a puddle in the corner. W sees best of both worlds, show OM how much she wants R and not totally destroy or wait to see how MCS reacts to news of OM.

W leaves MCS and tries to continue to court OM. MCS finds out about OM, confronts W and says, we can still work through this. Well, W is still in fantasy land and also feels she's too far into this to situation, it's easier to continue W's current path.

Then MCS detaches, gets business and shows W MCS is moving on. W gets cold dose of reality now she's on her own for a while. Gets mad at MCS because he's just fine and W is not and then realizes how much MCS actually cared about her. W gets enough IC to come to grips with going back on her decision. MCS is a changed man, understanding that he was a good guy, but complacent in making sure W was happy in M. W realizes her M was really good and her unhappiness was within. W courts MCS, he's skeptical, but hopeful. After a period, MCS realizes that W has changed and is back to being comfortable with herself and her marriage. Sweet music, sunsets, closing credits.

(Okay, last paragraph was made up, but I needed something to make me feel better as I sit in the house with rooms with no furniture. I know the 'man above' is reading this and I want to remind him what MCS did tonight with OM and yesterday with helping W move, just in case he forgot.....)

Okay, so I guess I'm not totally detached yet.

[MCS]

Vanilla,

Okay a cross post, but I'd like to understand what you saw that made you ask that question about judgement in the first place. Was it me questioning the decisions she's making?

I guess, I've been thinking about it and don't see it directly from me or how I think, with the following exception. When I'm comfortable with people, I do like to interact with constructive criticism, because that's how I like people to interact with me. If they have an opinion, then let me know. I've done that a lot with DB, get some range of inputs from people some pretty harsh and then make my own decisions.

I'm thinking that maybe the judgement thing would manifest itself when I don't have a good read with the person I'm interacting with and where they stand. At that point the constructive part of the criticism could be received as just criticism. My W and I always used this communication technique and we were both really open about saying what we thought. Well, if her self esteem was dropping, then she could see my communication with her as demeaning/demanding and not constructive.

I'll stress, that I don't see anything too extreme in my interactions with her or anyone. It would be something like this (a common discussion in our R)

"Hey, W what's planned for the weekend"
"MCS, I was going to go out with friends on Saturday night"
"Well, you went out the other day and I just did the bedtimes for the kids that night when you were out doing XYZ, could you go out earlier or wait until after bedtimes?"
"I guess, but I already told them that I was going to go out with them, I'll tell them you said no."
"W, that bothers me when you do that, because it makes me look like the bad guy, can you ask me before you make plans?"
"Sure, I guess"

Anyway, you can see I was 'debating' and I thought she was too, but it was times like this that she told me that I was making her feel guilty about spending time away from the family.

[Vanilla]

OK , MCS, I was waiting for you to ask, about judgement, perhaps it's because I was nearly a WAW myself that I have some insight into this,, so I am going to call it as I see it and I am going to move into W position as the first.

I will write as if I were W for a short while.

Vanilla,

I think that W really didn't know what was involved with parenting and saw MCS attentive and self satisfied as a dad, but W never seemed to 'settle' in to being a mom. W was a great mom, but struggled with her own individuality during it.

H you are judging me, how do you know what I feel about parenting? Perhaps I didn't want to settle as a mother, perhaps I also wanted to be W. I want to fit my own image as a W and a person not yours. I weighed myself ok. Did you want me to fit my own image as a mother or yours?

Then, MCS was satisfied with his job, but W was not in hers (always had friendly competition between us.)

Perhaps I did not want a friendly competition, perhaps my relationship was the one place I wanted to let loose and not be in competition. Perhaps I wanted to be validated, loved and to let go. Instead I felt you were weighing me against yourself.

Then W got overwhelmed and saw MCS just peachy keen in the M (around same time as friendship with OM.) That's when the resentment started. MCS made some changes once he found W was struggling, but not enough to counteract the resentment and blossoming A with OM. OM had focus on W and was just her and him having fun.

Perhaps for once I felt that I was not judged. I don't care whether I measure up or not. Whether in your eyes I am an 8 out of 10 or a 3 out of 10. Just quit evaluating how I am, just doing this makes me feel scruntised. I think I walk on egg shells.

Some of this below was confirmed by W, but there has to be more than she said.

MCS thinks A went too far emotionally and W took it to the final level physically (she denies this.) MCS still peachy keen in M, but W makes a decision to be 'happy' with OM. Asks OM about it, OM says no thanks. Then W feels guilty around peachy keen MCS and is still trying to get OM to change his mind. Drops bomb on MCS and normally confident MCS is a puddle in the corner. W sees best of both worlds, show OM how much she wants R and not totally destroy or wait to see how MCS reacts to news of OM.

Perhaps, perhaps not. You can think what you like about this but you are reading my mind. Perhaps I just want to be in a safe place, a saner place, or maybe I am really in love or infatuated. At this point I don't care what it is, it's different.

W leaves MCS and tries to continue to court OM. MCS finds out about OM, confronts W and says, we can still work through this. Well, W is still in fantasy land and also feels she's too far into this to situation, it's easier to continue W's current path.

gracious, now this is going to get worse for me. I have dared to get an improved position in my life and if I go back then I will be in the dog house. Will this be in my life forever. I am not in a fantasy land and even if I were that has to be a better place than I was.

Then MCS detaches, gets business and shows W MCS is moving on. W gets cold dose of reality now she's on her own for a while. Gets mad at MCS because he's just fine and W is not and then realizes how much MCS actually cared about her.

I have never really doubted that MCS cares about me, but he evaluates me and measures me, reads my mind. I don't like it and I have said so on several occasions, am I being heard yet? How loud to I have to shout this? I need to stay away as I am uncomfortable and now I guess it could get worse.

W gets enough IC to come to grips with going back on her decision.

Yes, but I don't know if I will or not. Is it safe, if I do will I always feel evaluated on this along with everything else?

MCS is a changed man, understanding that he was a good guy, but complacent in making sure W was happy in M.

OK but is it enough, will it be reversed and how do I know that I can go back and be OK? Perhaps some things will change but will I feel that I am MCS W, an equal in my M, accepted for me?.

W realizes her M was really good and her unhappiness was within.

yes obviously, but there were causes too.

W courts MCS, he's skeptical, but hopeful. After a period, MCS realizes that W has changed and is back to being comfortable with herself and her marriage. Sweet music, sunsets, closing credits.

Perhaps MCS has changed too?

(Okay, last paragraph was made up, but I needed something to make me feel better as I sit in the house with rooms with no furniture. I know the 'man above' is reading this and I want to remind him what MCS did tonight with OM and yesterday with helping W move, just in case he forgot.....)

Okay, so I guess I'm not totally detached yet.

No MCS I think you are very attached. If you were detached there would be no judgement of Me, no evaluation . on ordinary things, there would only be love and love needs no judgement. MCS would leave his judgements at the door.

MCS whether your judgement gives W a Full score or a minus one, relate to W with full active love and acceptance. Not attachment.

Of course my comments above are about how I, Vanilla would feel as W, it is only Vs interpretation and there are many others. They won't be Ws actual feelings and thoughts of course, but it's what I see and saw. It is uncomfortable to do this as it brings up some of my own feelings about being judged and criticised and ideally I would recommend that you see this in W shoes for yourself. I do so from a good place so I want us to be good on it. So take what you will from it.

MCS I know you are thoughtful and I was expecting you to keep on thinking about this as something obviously resonated. It is just my view. You are in my thoughts and prayers.

Just one final thought: a grey bedroom? How warm would that be to returnt to?

Your friend Vanilla

[MCS]

Vanilla,

MCS is picking his jaw up from the ground and crying his eyes out right now. You said some of the exact things she said to me. So its easier for me if I talk to Vanilla as I would love to talk with my W.......

I understand what you are saying here, but I don't understand 'why' you are saying it. That's what I don't get, why do you feel that way. I'm not trying to judge, I really am not. How do I show acceptance about things, yet still actively participate in working things out; accept things but still have the opportunity to voice my concerns. How do we have open communication? I never meant to judge you. I've always seen you as my equal in life, we complelented each other. I thought we would talk about things and come to a consensus together. We used to do that before kids and life caught up with us and I don't know what changed that we can't don't it anymore. I don't want to do that anymore if that makes you unhappy. I want you to be happy, I want you to be comfortable. What can I do to help you feel that way?

__________________

Wow, just wow Vanilla. It stings, because for the first time I can see someone in my wife's shoes. I never thought she felt this way until after she left and it is so painful seeing someone else feel that way to. What can I do now about it.

What happened to you, Vanilla that you didn't become a WAW?

How do I change this?

I think I did okay with W the last couple days, but I'm struggling with discussing arrangements about kids with W. I'm deeply hurt with what she did to the kids and I'm trying to balance that out with her desires for what she wants with them. I don't agree, but I'm scared to tell he that because of how she's been feeling throughout this, just like you have above. How do we have that conversation and me discuss my feelings about the kids and not show judgement?

Vanilla, thank you so much for this....please help me change

[MCS]

Also,

it was a gray bathroom, not bedroom. You got me thinking on that one. I wasn't going to do it this week anyway and I can't stand painting

[jim0987]

Of course my comments above are about how I, Vanilla would feel as W, it is only Vs interpretation and there are many others. They won't be Ws actual feelings and thoughts of course, but it's what I see and saw. It is uncomfortable to do this as it brings up some of my own feelings about being judged and criticised and ideally I would recommend that you see this in W shoes for yourself. I do so from a good place so I want us to be good on it. So take what you will from it.

Thanks Vanilla for your insights - we can only comment from our own perspective but i found around the boards when someone with similar experience is able to communicate how they would have felt it gives us a much better chance at having the empathy we really need to understand how we need to change.

I'm glad you posted this as it helps me as well

[Vanilla]

Vanilla,

MCS is picking his jaw up from the ground and crying his eyes out right now. You said some of the exact things she said to me. So its easier for me if I talk to Vanilla as I would love to talk with my W.......

I understand what you are saying here, but I don't understand 'why' you are saying it.
because that is how I feel. My feelings are my feelings to understand not yours. Stop, manage your own feelings. Just validate "W these are your feelings and you are entitled to have them, and I may never understand and it's ok."

That's what I don't get, why do you feel that way.
because I do, and perhaps I may never know myself

I'm not trying to judge, I really am not.
then stop mentioning it and quizzing me. It makes me feel judged which is also my feeling

How do I show acceptance about things,
STFU about it, just trust me to handle it.

yet still actively participate in working things out;
stick to your own feelings, I guess you have lots of those. Stop managing mine

accept things but still have the opportunity to voice my concerns.
Voice your concerns is right and I will voice mine

How do we have open communication?
Not at the moment thank you. Things aren't clear enough for me. When and if I am ready I"ll let you know

I never meant to judge you.
May be you didn't, but I felt as if you did. More validation and STFU. Stop trying to control my feelings, they are mine

I've always seen you as my equal in life, we complelented each other.
maybe, but what about what I thought?

I thought we would talk about things and come to a consensus together.

Maybe, but how much of my views did you take into account? Perhaps it's my fault and I should have held out for what I wanted more.

We used to do that before kids and life caught up with us and I don't know what changed that we can't don't it anymore.
I am not in that place

I don't want to do that anymore if that makes you unhappy.
there you go trying to manage my feelings.

I want you to be happy, I want you to be comfortable.
that's good, I want to be happy and comfortable

What can I do to help you feel that way?
Nothing, they are my feelings. Don't do anything. Manage your own. Validate me, accept me and let me have my own feelings

__________________

Wow, just wow Vanilla. It stings, because for the first time I can see someone in my wife's shoes. I never thought she felt this way until after she left and it is so painful seeing someone else feel that way to. What can I do now about it.

DB in all its glory. Validate Ws feelings and STFU

What happened to you, Vanilla that you didn't become a WAW?
I was so close to it, but I am older, in a shorter M, I have the 12 steps and I found DB

How do I change this?
By standing, stop judging others, reading improving. This applies to the guys at work, the dreadful driver on the road, MIL, OM, S, the cleaner.

I do think this is an easy change to make, it's one of realisation, when you catch yourself being critical of another person for who they are, realise that it's none of your business.

Manage the behavioural interaction (boundary) not the person. Never judge feelings, there are really no such things as feelings just states of mind and body. In fact the body can only really have one state at a time. So if you are in a judgement angry or critical state, go do something that changes it. And I don't mean toys and prams, I mean dance, paint, run, hug your S.


I think I did okay with W the last couple days, but I'm struggling with discussing arrangements about kids with W.

the vets will help you with this more, but they do say be friendly and matter of fact

I'm deeply hurt with what she did to the kids.
Stop, reflect, don't judge.

and I'm trying to balance that out with her desires for what she wants with them.
thats her place to know, do what you want to do and that is enforce proper boundaries

I don't agree,
that is your right

but I'm scared to tell her that because of how she's been feeling throughout this, just like you have above.
STFU and manage your own feelings, if there is something in the kids interests put that first.


How do we have that conversation and me discuss my feelings about the kids and not show judgement?
At this stage, I think you can't have that conversation.

Vanilla, thank you so much for this....please help me change
dearest one you are doing that all by yourself, it is only my post which resonated and caused release in you. There will be a time when you will return the favour when I get stuck.

May I recommend a spiritual book by Michael George about Love Actually. I think you would find it inspiring.

Can a couple of the vets please just check in and ensure I have expressed ok.
Projecting peace of mind to you
Vanilla

[HPoirot]

Thank you Vanilla for the time, effort, and thought you put into your posts here. I'm often make myself so angry with my W that I forget the empathy you showed in your words.

[Vanilla]

MCS

Just one small thing to say left and it is what Sandi said to me, nothing, nothing you have said or done warrants W being wayward. That behaviour is her decision alone and totally unacceptable.

Vanilla

[Vanilla]

Also,

it was a gray bathroom, not bedroom. You got me thinking on that one. I wasn't going to do it this week anyway and I can't stand painting

Warning to Vanilla, please clean your glasses.

My bathroom is painted, guess? Creamy Vanilla!


Vanilla

[MCS]

Vanilla,

Sorry its been a little bit of time before I replied. Big GAL weekend, pretty much got the house back to normal before the kids come back tomorrow. Its funny, I realize how much comfort I got out of the house the way it was. It was subconscious as I was shopping, but I pretty much got similar things to replace what she took.

So, I read through your posting from yesterday and learned a few things.

1) I can start to see my judgmental thinking as I read your responses. Since you were doing it 1st person, I found myself thinking. WTH; how can you leave your M without even understanding how you feel and how come you can't even tell me what you're feeling right now....then I had the lightbulb go off in my head. I always thought that was me being 'logical' but it really is being judgmental.

2) Your responses helped me realize that I can't even remember when my W would respond back in any way to let me know how she felt or didn't feel. I did get complacent with gaining comfort talking with W about the day, kids, etc. But what I'm talking about is the deep emotional stuff. I felt like I was sharing how I felt, but she wasn't sharing how she felt. Classic WAW responses, but looking back through it, we did have discussions; she just kept most of the emotional stuff to herself.

3) That gets me disappointed and having doubts in being hopeful, especially since she says she had EA's before in our M. This one's been going on for over a year, I guess the other ones were a while ago; I didn't realize them at the time. I knew she was good friends with these people, but that's all that I figured it was. My 'best' friend is a woman and W and I have always been just fine with that friendship, so I didn't see an issue with her being good friends with men. (diatribe starting...)

I guess there was a hint of an EA of my friend to me one time when she was having M troubles. She was (very) drunk and said something to me about how she should have married me, I responded that we were good friends that are very similar people, R takes people that are different to work well. Told her she's got a great H, that cares a lot for her and this time in her M would pass. Well, it did. She actually talked a lot with my W about her M and W helped her through that time. Since I was uncomfortable in the discussion that night, I told my W what our friend said and let my W know what my response was.

When W talked to me about OM and the EA; I validated and reminded her of our friend's comment to me and said that this can happen to most people. My W's response was, "Well yeah, but MCS and friend never took it anywhere" Not the exact quote, but it was weird because it almost seemed like she was trying to be self deprecating on her own actions.

Back on topic....

However, I do look back at the times she said she had EA's and they were in times that we were having stresses, not M but life. I'm wondering if this is systemic and I just didn't see it. W may have felt for a while she couldn't emotionally connect with me to the level she needed me to. Ugh...

4) I understand there is no excuse for waywardness, nor is there any excuse (besides abuse) for a spouse to up and leave the M and furthermore the kids without trying to work things out. However, W has done that; there's nothing I can do about that. I don't blame myself for that. However, 25years said something a bit ago on a thread "A WAS never goes back to the M that they left." That resonated for me, because while I believe (myself) the waywardness caused her to leave w/o working on the M in hopes to capture OM; I've been struggling to identify what I needed to change to show her that our M would be different.

5) Went out to dinner with one of my good friends tonight. Anyway, we were talking about the sitch and he said to me. "I can't believe that W doesn't see the changes in MCS. MCS has done a total 180, not that there was anything wrong with MCS to begin with, but its amazing what MCS has done over the last couple months." He didn't go into specifics, but it actually troubled me a little bit, because I don't feel like I've changed that much and if I did I'm still not quite sure what was wrong with me to begin with. I mean, I'm much more in touch with my religion than I was; but I feel like the same person, values, views, etc. I guess I have re-prioritized my life and the biggest thing is that I'm much more empathetic and talk about my emotions. I don't know, he used the term "180" which got me thinking DB; so it made me be a little introspective

I guess, he was saying in a round about way, "MCS is becoming a man that only a fool would leave" I guess I'll end on that tonight. Still work to be done.

[jim0987]

Sounds like your doing well.

getting your head round what can seem judgemental is going to be really really good for you and is certainly something I need to work on.

[Vanilla]

Vanilla,

So, I read through your posting from yesterday and learned a few things.

3) That gets me disappointed and having doubts in being hopeful, especially since she says she had EA's before in our M. This one's been going on for over a year, I guess the other ones were a while ago; I didn't realize them at the time.

When W talked to me about OM and the EA; I validated and reminded her of our friend's comment to me and said that this can happen to most people. My W's response was, "Well yeah, but MCS and friend never took it anywhere" Not the exact quote, but it was weird because it almost seemed like she was trying to be self deprecating on her own actions.

MCS, please don't validate an EA or a PA. Poor behaviour and boundary infringements are enforced instead. "W it is inappropriate for you to be engaging in a PA, and if we have issues then we need to be helped with this" wording needs help.....
In the same way I STFU on the abusive language and then correct boundary infringement. If H has a valid point and it's put across in a non abusive way then I validate and even apologise. I did that today.

However, I do look back at the times she said she had EA's and they were in times that we were having stresses, not M but life. I'm wondering if this is systemic and I just didn't see it. W may have felt for a while she couldn't emotionally connect with me to the level she needed me to.

EAs are inappropriate at any time! MCS all we can do is create an environment in which it is possible for connection, we can't insist on it!

4) I understand there is no excuse for waywardness, nor is there any excuse (besides abuse) for a spouse to up and leave the M and furthermore the kids without trying to work things out. However, W has done that; there's nothing I can do about that.

agreed

I don't blame myself for that.

It's perfectly good I think to see how we contribute to that and blame isn't helpful. It's all done with, all we can do is deal with today.

However, 25years said something a bit ago on a thread "A WAS never goes back to the M that they left."

I read the same thing, but interpreted it differently. I read it to mean that a WAS would not want to go back to an M in which they were uncomfortable. This is a different interpretation. I saw this as a positive as the LBS would want a different M anyway. However we can ask 25 what he meant.


That resonated for me, because while I believe (myself) the waywardness caused her to leave w/o working on the M in hopes to capture OM; I've been struggling to identify what I needed to change to show her that our M would be different.

I think you just did!

5) Went out to dinner with one of my good friends tonight. Anyway, we were talking about the sitch and he said to me. "I can't believe that W doesn't see the changes in MCS.

She will, just about everyone will tell her. If you can manage the judgement issue and replace that with detachment then that is a real biggie. Trust me it will give you a lot of peace. I have had to learn to deal with my H in this way, not judge that which he does but learn to manage the boundary on it.

"MCS has done a total 180, not that there was anything wrong with MCS to begin with, but its amazing what MCS has done over the last couple months."

This is a wonderful gift of friendship and validation, someone you can ask about previous issues.

He didn't go into specifics, but it actually troubled me a little bit, because I don't feel like I've changed that much and if I did I'm still not quite sure what was wrong with me to begin with.

Frankly if it has changed and the past is unchangeable, let go of it, acknowledge and live in today. Make the insights work for you today. You can always ask.


I mean, I'm much more in touch with my religion than I was; but I feel like the same person, values, views, etc. I guess I have re-prioritized my life and the biggest thing is that I'm much more empathetic and talk about my emotions. I don't know, he used the term "180" which got me thinking DB; so it made me be a little introspective.

yes, MCS from my perspective, vast changes, mainly openness and that sense of humour has developed. MCS is an insightful and thoughtful man. These tools will help MCS be an even better dad.

I guess, he was saying in a round about way, "MCS is becoming a man that only a fool would leave" I guess I'll end on that tonight.

Yes absolutely.

Still work to be done.
A lifelong process for every human. thank goodness!

I am glad we are good on this.
Peace
Vanilla

[Mozza]

It's not too late. Go ask your friend what changes he saw in you.

[MCS]

Sounds like your doing well

Yeah, I guess I'm doing okay. I'm not sure if it's because it's close to Xmas, but I find myself being a little more emotional the last day or so. Not horrible, but I see myself with emotional swings that I've not had for a while.

Well, wife dropped off the kids today and for the first time in a while, it seemed like she was in a neutral mood towards me. Before, she avoided me like the plague. We weren't chatting up a storm, but talked a bit about Xmas travel plans and I gave her a few things she left behind. On the way to her car she said "Merry Xmas." I'm feeling good about that, no huge signs but it's the first step to us at least being able to talk to each other.

[MCS]

So another day and another non-PMA day.I guess its not that exactly, but its like its hitting me all over again.

I'm finding myself mad at her for just up and leaving. I read other threads here and see that my W gave me no clues, in fact I think she covered up and acted like this was all okay. Case in point was my father's day present, which was 2 months before BD and 1 month before the 'final' OM rendezvous. She got me a canoe. Actually, she said it was more of a family present since we could all go out together and spend the days together. Then there was our trip to WDW in June, great time with the family. Then there was the date night we were supposed to go on the weekend after BD. A concert we had been planning to go to for months. Even the night of BD, we were hanging out in the hot tub, life was good....kids were in bed, we were just talking, it was a nice night. I even commented on how good our lives seemed to be at the time. She said nothing...until later that night when she said she was checking out of the marriage. I just look back and it feels like my W tried to cover these things up with OM, her dissatisfaction of her M, ugh, it just is getting me mad.

I think this may be a response to my wife being neutral about me yesterday. I guess it was easier to think the alien had abducted her, because it was not the person I knew at all. Now that I saw 1 time that she was somewhat normal, I'm backsliding....or it could just be the holidays...or the fact she finally took her stuff....IDK, but it stinks

Family is coming into town tonight and tomorrow, so hopefully that will be enough distraction to get me back on track...

[Complex]

Just read through your thread.
Makes me feel I'm off well I can't imagine this happening after so many years.
Something I read in an article yesterday that helped me a lot: The problem a lot of us have is we don't take martial leadership. It starts with inducing communication in your marriage. There's so many people out there that do not communicate in their marriage. Maybe it's a character thing. But we should share our feelings with our spouse, good or bad. And not wait with it. That is our responsibility, that's what we promised each other.
If we fail doing that it can only go downhill. It's a connection we need. Honesty trust and respect!
If the spouse isn't doing this we have to take responsibility and be in charge.(Women like that anyway I guess). we have to be strong, in charge but nice and not cater, beg, cry. So much easier said than done.

Hope you have a nice Christmas time. It's probable the worst time of the year for us be strong, enjoy the people that love you and the ones you love, think positive, eat well

[Mozza]

It you read my sitch in the last 24 hours you probably put me in the category of the people who were warned, with good reasons. Yet, my W was also giving me positive signals such as a family trip to see friends out of town, taking couple and family pictures, going on two dates, etc., this less than two weeks before BD. The positive signals are just business as usual for them because they are not ready to act or speak up. It's their way of keeping control, perhaps because they may change their mind. It seems normal to me.

I wouldn't be surprised if your reaction comes from her warming up a little. Sandi2 just wrote to someone else that LBS quickly turn into WAS when their spouse comes back too fast, because they haven't processed the situation. I know I still feel upset as soon as I imagine my W attempting a return of some sort. It takes time for us, not just for them. It's a tough situation and it can't be done too quick. Let's hang in there!

[okjpc]

MCS and Vanilla, thank you for the back and forth! I hadn't checked in on this thread for a few days and just caught up. Excellent stuff in here that I needed to see.

[MCS]

Mozza,

Yeah, I'm not sure what it was, but you're right I read that note from your wife about your sitch. I guess it's just I almost feel used right now. I'm definitely sticking with it, there's no doubt about that. Not that it matters now, but my IC asked at one point if I thought W wanted me to figure it out. I look back and the few times that I did see her upset, I don't know if it was about our M or the A. I remember asking a couple times and she wasn't straight forward in why she was down and I'm sure that at that point I started to answer for her or give her reasons she should be happy. I've discovered that about myself. However, knowing my W, I'm sure it was a moral struggle. But I guess you're right, regardless she didn't think she could tell me and I need to take a little ownership in that.

Okpjc,
I've been reading your sitch a little but haven't stopped in recently. Hope your doing okay. It seems like you are a few months behind me. I'm really thankful that Vanilla has given the insight that she has provided for me. It's taken me a while to hone in on where I need to change. As she said, not fundamental changes in MCS, but changes that I need to develop to say the least. Funny thing is, early on in the sitch I said to my IC that it felt things i needed to work on were more situational, but I could only figure out examples of past conversations. I couldn't figure out the fundamental change, which is what Vanilla helped with. it is the single most resonating thing about myself that I've learned here and I'm so thankful to her for that.

[MCS]

But we should share our feelings with our spouse, good or bad. And not wait with it. That is our responsibility, that's what we promised each other.
If we fail doing that it can only go downhill. It's a connection we need. Honesty trust and respect!
If the spouse isn't doing this we have to take responsibility and be in charge.

Thanks for this hope your Xmas is good also.

So during an early counseling before I knew about OM, my W said to me that she knew exactly how I felt in the M. I would tell her how I felt, what was good, what was bad and so on. I fired back (wrong move) that that's why I thought she was telling me how she felt. I thought we were both telling each other. That's how M should be and I see that is as a couple did not share that on her side. That's where my complacency really messed things up, since I felt okay, I assumed she did. In the remote case I asked or she seemed upset, the emotional trust wasn't there for her to speak her mind. As the year went by and she was more entrenched in the A, I'm guessing it further divided us emotionally.

[MCS]

So another fun interaction with the W. She came to pick up the kids for Xmas this afternoon. Well, MCS household was in full Xmas mode, family was over, presents and wrapping paper everywhere, family all staying somewhat out of the way, but the driveway was full of cars. Anyway, kids came up and wanted to show W all there Xmas loot since they were so excited. W was cordial, but when S5 asked her to come see something in another room, she declined. Not a big deal....Then the fun started. Nothing too bad, just stuff I didn't want to deal with on Xmas

Our families live in the same general area, about 200 miles away from where we live. Anyway long story, but we were throwing around the idea to do a kid exchange somewhere up by our families. I left my plans open to go up with family or stay close to home, just because I didn't know about kids. As W was walking out, she said she needed to be back down near home for Monday morning (when we normally do the exchange) Anyway, I said I could get them Sunday night before she would travel back home. She said, well can I have them longer since you'll have them an extra day since you're getting them earlier. I said I needed to think about it, that I could just meet her back down at home since I wasn't committed to staying with Family Until New Year's Day (next exchange). Anyway, wished her a Merry Xmas and said to drive safely. She said thanks and it was generally an okay conversation (they have seemed to be getting better and more relaxed)

Well, she called me about 2 hours later (first call in about 3 months) and said she was going to travel down on Sunday so she could have Xmas at her place. Which was weird because she said she was going to have it there today, but at some point decided instead to drive kids 250miles to her mom's. Not sure why, but oh well. I wish the kids could have stayed at least at a house playing with their toys, but nothing I could do, nor did I say about that. Then she said she'd keep the kids for the couple days after that so I could stay w/ family and get the kids when I got back later in the week. I asked her if we could talk tomorrow since I had my nephew in the car with me and she was on speakerphone. As soon as I said that, she just hung up on me, didn't say anything at all.

So I guess she's angry at me?!? I guess because she wants to keep the kids longer, I don't know. I'll text her tomorrow and see if she wants to talk, but I'm guessing she won't.

This thing with the kids is so stressful, we are not on the same page with regards to them at all and if she doesn't get exactly what she wants, she either blows up at me or does something like this. Once upon a time, I'd start questioning her about why she didn't do Xmas for them today, or say they should stay at home, Etc. I'm learning to let that stuff go, but we can't even have a conversation about them....Ugh.

[MCS]

So, got an email today from W's uncle that lives on the other side of the country. They never really talked, but once every couple years at family events. I guess he had my email address instead of my W's.

Anyway, he addressed it to her and referred back to a wedding that W attended a couple weeks ago. He said that he was sorry that he didn't get a chance to talk to her, but was concerned because W looked pretty stressed. Asked W to give him a call to talk.

Not that it matters, but I'm guessing he finally found out the sitch when he called W's grandfather for Xmas since it was weird because the wedding was beginning of Dec.

All I did was forward it to W, didn't add anything at all.

Anyway, I'm guessing the W's family is circling the wagons about our M, which I'm glad is happening. A good portion of the W's family is D and over the years, they've always seen us as a happy couple.

In addition to this, I got an Xmas card from FIL saying that he prays that somehow this can work out. I talked about SIL the other week, she's trying to talk with W. I know MIL has tried to talk to W about what's going on. W's grandfather sent an Xmas card to my house addressed just to W.

Then there was that guy that approached me when W was moving out.

I know that W needs to make her own decisions, but it's comforting that it seems that her family is trying to work it out with her. It also helps my PMA that I'm not the person that W perceives me to be, that doesn't matter for anyone else in the sitch, but it does help me when I start to believe the spew that she sends my way.

[Vanilla]

MCS

Interactions with W just seem a little like cross schedule stress. I would simply take the high road, the best for the kids so they travel least.

Love the way you handled the email. Classy.

Peace dearest

Vanilla

[MCS]

So, I got a text from a friend today saying that she was thinking about me over the holidays and said she hoped I had a holiday that I deserved. After thinking about it for a few minutes, I replied back that the kids had a blast and that's all that I really wanted. It was a tough Xmas for me, but looking back the kids were so happy and I need to realize that is all that matters right now. I'm actually really proud of how I'm being their parent, their stability, through this. Just like my sitch, I don't think I've fundamentally changed my parenting, but some tweaks I've made have definitely helped them and myself through this.

MCS

Interactions with W just seem a little like cross schedule stress. I would simply take the high road, the best for the kids so they travel least.

Yeah, I suppose you are right. I guess the thing that irked me was that she just hung up on me....but that's the small stuff. I guess, I need to look glass half full and she actually called in the first place. No contact since then, I guess I'll text her tomorrow and see if she'll let me know what her plans are.

Vanilla, I hope your holiday was as good as could be expected. Thanks a lot for all of your support on here, I've been feeling a lot better about my place and role in the separation because of your help. I feel like I'm more focused on things for myself than I was before which is just what was needed. I think this is going to be a long haul.

[Vanilla]

MCS

Thank you for the accolade. Several DBers have really helped me, so we pay it forward for each other on these threads.

My holiday was more of the same, but at least peaceful. Not a dark time, DB is calming my sitch and I am becoming more detached as I cope with each new hurdle. I dare say dark times will come. Calm before the storm with a compulsive!

But for today, it's ok, one day at a time. Thank you for asking.


Vanilla

[MCS]

So, some very, very small baby steps. Its weird just saying these things about my M, since less than 6 months ago; I'd never thought I would be in this spot. That's life, I guess

-I texted W about plans with the kids yesterday and she texted me right back. It is one of the first times I can remember that I initiated a conversation and she replied less than a few hours later. I did the 80% rule and send her a reply just saying "Thanks."

-She dropped off kids today and didn't rush out of the house. We chatted a very little bit <5 minutes. I may be reading into it, but there was an awkward pause. One of those that would happen when you first meet someone and neither has something to say, but is waiting for the other to continue. This is very different than just a couple weeks ago, that she would drop the kids in the door and rush to her car w/o saying anything at all. I count this one as a small step.

- I got a policy change on my insurance that said my status was D. She had pulled her name off the account. I knew she was going to remove her name, but the D caught me by surprise. I called and Insurance said it didn't make any difference and switched it to separated. When I asked W today, she said she told them S, but they just put D since it didn't make a difference. Another, that just a couple weeks ago she would try and not answer the question at all, she seemed pretty cordial answering it and didn't seem annoyed that I asked the question.
__________
-Back to reality, kids said that W had OM and OM's son over to exchange Xmas gifts. OM's GF was not there. It doesn't mean anything at all, but I was hoping and praying that the change in attitude was because of NC with OM. Oh well....

[Mozza]

MCS - Just rejoice in the baby steps and have no expectations. Also remember that good mood generally means that things are good with OM. I'm glad things are warming up a little between the two of you, but be careful not to be too dependent on the slightest signal for your mood. You should focus on yourself and create the means for you to be happy.

[MCS]

Mozza,

Thanks for the insight, it is what I needed right now. I'm actually okay with the sitch right now. I'm at the point that I think that she just needs to figure out herself.

I definitely had GAL this weekend, going up to visit my parents and redoing their bathroom. It hadn't been upgraded in 30 years and they both are having problems with mobility, so they were really happy that it got done. It was weird sitting there with them and just me; no kids or W. I almost felt like I was living back home.

In all of this, my main struggle has been the complete shutdown of our communication. I think that W was in self-protect mode, in that when we talked the other month when I confronted her with OM, she told me that she was unsure of her decision. I backslid and used that to push the R talk which caused her to shut back down. I haven't been able to see if that comment was genuine or appeasing me to protect OM since she has been so NC since then.

I think I know better now to take her cues on how fast to move. If not about the R, at least so that we can have conversations about the kids.

I can say that I'm in a place where I know that I will be happy with having someone that I love and loves me back at some point. I said on a different thread; right now I pray that that person is my wife. However, not the person she's been the last couple months. That's where my faith that the man up above is controlling the outcome and hopefully growing her and I. I just need to sit back, let him work and try not to mess anything up along the way.

Not to get Holy Roller, but I have had a sense since the beginning that this is part of the story of my life and there's a plan for it. Life has been pretty easy for 35 years. A couple speed bumps; but never something to this magnitude. I've always appreciated that and don't think I took it for granted. However, the last couple months have been really influential, although painful, in developing who I am.

[MCS]

So please someone tell me that kids exchanges get emotionally easier. W just picked up the kids and it has taken all the wind out of my sails. I went from having fun playing video games with them to feeling like cr@p. I don't want to do this for the next 16 years......

W was back to being short and visibility annoyed. Hardly said a sentence to me. She will not walk more than 2 steps in the door. S5 asked her to see some of his Xmas presents and she said no, again. That would take walking further into the house. I just don't get it at all.....

Uggh, this stinks. New Years is a tough day in our family, my younger sister passed away 4 years ago and today is her birthday. Hopefully she's looking down and understands what's going on between W and I and what the outcome will be.

I had a dream about W last night. It was the first time that I can remember that it was a good dream. It was like she finally realized that she wanted to reconcile. W came up to me, gave me a hug and whispered in my ear ILY. I remember the feeling that I got in the dream that everything would be okay, it was just going to take a while. Here's to hoping that dream comes true.

[MCS]

So, I'm getting a little anxious about my tactic here. I've tried to be in 'sit back and wait' mode about everything. I guess I'm fine with that for our R, but our lack of interaction about our kids is just troubling and not the precedent I want to set. She's expecting 50/50 custody, but seems like she feels we don't need to communicate at all about them.

So, I want to be prepared for what I think will be the next step in whatever our MC (mediation) session will be.....kids schedule.

I'm debating forcing her to talk about some of these issues, but it's not very DB. So I'm conflicted. At first, she lost almost all my trust about her and the kids based in what she did with them before BD w/o me knowing, how she handled BD with them and the things she exposed them to during early part of separation (the text message was the biggest one.) it seems to have gotten better, based on what the kids say to me, but part of me thinks that she's just doing it because I told her these were things she needed to do. I.e. Put the kids first when she has them.

We have not been able to agree on a schedule really since the beginning. I can tell you how she left and just walked out and disappeared on the kids for a week really is still a deep wound for me. They were so scared and confused and still are.

She has pushed to do a week on/week off for the kids. I think that's too long for them to be away from the other person. However, I don't think we are in a place to have an open discussion about it. Ever time I try to talk about it with her, she blows up and says I'm witholding the kids from her. Right now, I have the kids during the school week and she picks up Friday from school and drops them off at school on Monday.

I've been kicking this can down the road per se, because I have been trying to wait to see if our communications about the kids could improve, but it really has not improved at all.

--She had OM and his son over at W's house while the kids were ther, which was something that I've requested her not to do, especially because she tells me there's no R with him. It's not a big deal, so I won't confront her about it, it's just something that we've talked about

--She's asked to share pictures and stuff about the kids, I've sent her about 10 pics and I've got none, not even responses to the pics I sent

--She's never called, texted or anything to ask about the kids

--Her place is ~1/2 hour farther away from school and daycare, so the kids have earlier wake ups and longer commutes to/from

--She hasn't answered any of there questions about what has happened to mommy and daddy and why she doesn't want to be with daddy anymore

--When I bumped into OM at the store, I overheard him talking to someone about how I am putting conditions on her having the kids (something to this effect, I couldn't hear everything) like getting into a house


Anyway, this is all seemingly small stuff, but the total lack of communication about their well-being, activities, Etc. I'm still not comfortable with. My brother and his XW never established any type of communication about the kids and now 8 years later it is coming back to bite them as my niece is using them against each other. I don't want to be in that situation.

[Vanilla]

MCS

This is going to be a long road. You are the Tango king without a Tango queen. So be it, you will have to accept this. Ultimately it is what you do and the way you do it.

Keep sending the pics, it's a great thing and younger kids love having their pics taken so it's fun.

Kids hand over, this is going to be up to you to manage, I would suggest distraction and anticipation.

When fostering, handover time was very tough and often the way to manage with younger children was use of anticipation, deciding on a meal, helping to cook, a new game or TV show. Even decorating a room, sewing, and a particular favourite murder in the dark (hide and seek). Some of the other parents will have more modern ideas for you.

Anticipation is telling the kids what they are going to do when they arrive, "been waiting for you to arrive because we are making pizzas for supper or I want to watch Frozen" next time you come we are going to karaoke. When you come back from mums next time then we are going to the park. Followed by a text or call "looking forward to the park tomorrow or we will have a picnic". Your kids are at an age when they love this. Putting away decorations, going to the tip with the old Xmas tree was fun for granddaughters, spent time talking about recycling, almost anything can be fun at that age. Especially cuddles, tickles and hugs. Bed bouncing, pillows, hidden chocolates and clues to surprises. Even bath bubbles and toasty dressing gowns with melted marshmallows each, discussions on why marshmallows toast.

The key is contact whilst the kids are away from you, there is a solution somewhere to this. Children come first MCS over your feelings. I suggest you find a way to communicate with the kids whilst 'bypassing' W. An early evening text to W " I would like to ring for a 10 mins to talk to kids, to say goodnight to them. This will be 6:45 on the landline." Simple, no talk to W, but connection with kids, almost every day. Then anticipation kids D loves you sleep well, school today?, next time you come I am planning a picnic. Preferably call before bed. FaceTime would be better. Leave it to W if in due course she follows your example when the kids are with you, she will. Limit the talks to once a day unless it's a birthday or other event day. Fix a time, build a habit around it, a routine.

MCS, you can do this, settle for the longest time frame and be glad if issues resolve sooner. Kindness, gentleness and putting your precious children first, last and in the middle. There are wonderful dads on this board and dads becoming so, as well as single moms growing and developing as people and finding their lives enriched as a result.

Time is your friend
Vanilla

[MCS]

Vanilla,

Thanks, like always your words make me feel better. I agree that there needs to be contact with the kids while they are at the other person's place. I think that will help the kids as well as W and I.

_________

Some journaling about how I'm feeling right now. I'm definitely in a funk the last couple days.

I think part of my problem right now is that I'm having trouble accepting this is going to be a long haul, regardless of the outcome. I'm doing okay day to day, but I'm having trouble thinking about my future without getting upset or anxious. Like I said, I know I'm going to be happy at some point; its just the road to it seems so intimidating.

I compound that with thinking about the kids future's. I thought W and I were so in sync about how we were raising our kids and the values that we were instilling. Then this happened and even that is upside down. I don't know how she could be 'okay' with the kids having separated parents w/o trying everything possible to keep us together.

I just feel like I'm in a funk and just 'getting by day by day.' I've never had that feeling in my life. I've always had something to look forward to and understood what I needed to do to get there.

It's just that I feel so lonely when the kids aren't around. I know, GAL; but I've never liked 'getting out' of the house. I'm just lonely and need an emotional connection to someone

My W was my BF and everyone else was a distant second. Even up to the nigh of BD I felt this way. That's how blind I was about what was going on. This affects me on so many different levels. I'm missing all parts of my M right now, the friendship, the intimacy, the partnership, the waking up next to someone, helping each other out, depending on each other as parents, all of it.

That's the thing, I'll sound spoiled; but I want that....and I don't want to wait. I'd like that to be my W, but a little part of me is starting the temptation to look elsewhere. Nothing horrible, just stuff I never have done before. Giving someone a second glance, seeing if there's a ring, wondering if they have kids. That makes me even more scared. I don't like feeling that way and I dread if it ever would get to the point that I'm looking for someone else. I hate to say it, but I empathize with W in that case about how w/o EN being met, some of these things start to seep in.

I was so content in my M, its so horrible that she was next to me all those days and nights and I didn't know she wasn't happy. I so wish I knew, I would have moved mountains to make her happy. Its still a part of why I'm still in this. For all of this pain, I still love her and want her to be happy. With all my heart, I don't think this is the path for her to do it, but I don't know.

I'm sorry, its just been a rough vacation. I guess since I'm out of my routine and I don't have work to occupy my mind during the day. Kids come back tomorrow, IC in the morning and then MC (mediation) on Tuesday. I'm both anxious and scared for that. We've been on a three week break, so I'm not sure what its going to hold.

[MCS]

A little journaling,

Went to IC today. She's been listening a lot over the last couple months but not really giving me things to 'work on.' Well, today she told me that I'm getting paralyzed making decisions for today based on not knowing how they would affect the future. She said part of the issue of why I feel this way is that W is making decisions based on 'now' and I'm continuing to look in the future.

It actually sums up how I feel pretty well, she actually rattled off exactly what I said in the posts above about how I'm so nervous about how the future will play out. She said that's where faith needs to come in. Its tough to hear that, not because I don't have faith, but I think its the next step in relinquishing control

She told me to write two letters to be read in the future about how I'm feeling and what I'm doing about the sitch. One is for me, one if for my kids. I'm going to tackle that this weekend. I think its so I can start to see for myself that I've done everything I can do right now

_________

---A friend at work said she saw W with the kids at a store, W doesn't know this friend, but the friend said that D4 was out in just tights and flip-flops in 30 degree weather. W would have never done that before. I'm not going to say anything about it, but I have noticed based on what the kids say and other things, that she has pretty much changed her parenting style to laissez faire with the kids. It kind of reminds me of the beginning of that movie Big Daddy, if I were to make a parallel

---Also heard that when she dropped off Xmas presents at a friends that she was saying that it wasn't much because money's tight....because she's having to pay 2 mortgages. Funny, I keep trying to take my mortgage or at least pool ours together, but she won't do it. I guess she wouldn't be able to complain to others that she's the victim in this. That's a recurring theme I've seen over the last year, she stretches the truth to make her look like she's always getting the short end of the stick. This is something that the MIL has always done and my wife hated it. Now she's doing it....ugh. It was a time like this a year ago that she was complaining that nothing ever goes right in her life, that I dropped "Stop trying to make yourself look like a Martyr." One slip up a year ago, because that's what it seemed she was trying to do. That's when she tells me she shut down on our M.

---Got a 'catch-up' email on the kids from her. it said "Kids did fine, no issues" That was it. I think she's anti-DBing my DBing.

[MCS]

D4 Quote of the Day.....

"Daddy, can you just go get Mommy and bring her back home? We can come with you...."

If only it were that easy....this tears me apart.

[Mozza]

D4 Quote of the Day..... "Daddy, can you just go get Mommy and bring her back home? We can come with you...."

Aouch! Sorry to hear...

What's the arrangement now? Doesn't your W have the kids half the time at her own place? I'm fascinated that a kid as young as yours expresses such awareness. When I tell people that my kids take the separation in strides ("it's cool!"), they respond that D6 and D3 must be too young to realize, but your kids are young and they get it.

It's no comfort, but as I told you before, it's another kind of pain when your kids don't seem to mind not seeing either parent half the time.

[MCS]

Mozza,

Yeah, D4 is pretty in touch and emotional for her age. This is compounded with part Drama Queen. So sometimes its difficult seeing from what side its coming from especially when its at a time that she knows that she can get a little leverage, like going to bed.

Anyway, S5 is much more reserved and doesn't talk too much about the sitch. He does say that he wants Mommy to come back when he prays and when he's upset.

It was funny, tonight S5 was experimenting with the middle finger (must be from school) and I caught him putting it up under the pillow. I scolded him and he said "Daddy, are you going to leave?" Well, D4 had just said the thing above and I said, "I would never leave you, S5." Then he said "I meant the room to go downstairs" oops, minus one for Dad.

W slipped a couple weeks ago at MC (mediation) saying that "The kids keep begging me to come home, but I don't see that happening" She then caught herself that she expressed some vulnerability and not addressing their needs and quickly switched the subject.

Yeah, the arrangement is still weekends with her, weekdays with me. She did have them some extra time the last two weeks because of the Holidays. However, she's been pushing week on/week off, which I'm not too comfortable with agreeing to. IDK, its something I'm struggling with.

[Mozza]

Thanks for the clarification. As you know, I alternate weeks and it's the model I see most often around here. I've been advised to have them over for dinner in the middle of W's week (for kids under 4 yo), but after letting me do it twice, W doesn't allow it anymore. Anyway, it works really well for us. The kids are happy and they love the stability of it.

You reminded me that D3 has added something to her nightly routine: she asks me not to leave her, not to go to work for instance. I always reassure her that I'm staying at home with them all night long. It might be an impact of the S, but kids can easily latch on any routine, so I don't know.

[MCS]

Yeah, thanks. I think something like you have as long as there's a visit or dinner sometimes during the week might be good. I asked the MC and he said there was no ideal formula or timeframe, biggest thing was that the two parents were civil to each other. When they bad mouth the other is when kids have problems like they're in the middle trying to referee.

[MCS]

I need help.....

I was reluctant going to MC (mediation) today because I was worried that the wife would really start to push changing the schedule with the kids now that she's in a new house. Well I was right, the first thing she says what she wanted to have the kids week on week off. The issue with this is I don't think that this is the best thing for the kids, but anytime I try to talk to her about it she gets angry and tells me I'm withholding the kids from her. So I tried today to talk to her as gently as possible and let her understand that I don't mind changing the schedule but I don't think a full week on and off is a good idea.

The issue is as soon as I say that she just will not talk to me about anything and will not have a conversation about what is good for the kids and how we both feel. She is really, really timid talking to me, to the point that it appears almost like someone who has been victimized. I will say this has never ever happened, there's never been any sort of violence, anger anything at all in our marriage. So the marriage counselor, I think, realizes that and is trying to get us to talk outside of counseling but she refuses. I try to have a conversation during counseling and she's not interested. I'd like to just sit back and give her space but she's trying to make me make these decisions about long-term solutions for the kids. I just don't know what to do. I said today that I'm fine changing the schedule so that she can have more weekdays if she wants to be involved with their school, but she keeps saying that the week on week off is pretty much what she wants. I'd like to talk to her about maybe having the other person pick up the kids for dinner once or twice a week or something like that but she wants no contact at all with me.

It is truly like I don't know this person at all. All I want to do is to talk about the kids and have an interchange but she refuses. So that gets me more reserved about making any decisions with the kids because she won't even tell me how to communicate with her and have a conversation. All she does is say if I have something to talk about with the kids to email her. Then I found out today that she's telling people that I refuse to let her see the kids. This is BS, everything that she's asked for I've tried to accommodate. I just don't know where to go from here that she wants me to make decisions about the future of our kids will not talk to me at all about it.

[Mozza]

Have you done any research on the ideal time split for the kids? Maybe there's a help line where you live? Google it. Also, you can find info online about the time split. I'm concerned you've painted yourself in a corner with W and won't change your mind on principle, regardless of what you find.

Your W's attitude is baffling, from what you report. All I can advise is to take note of it and not expect anything different. She's definitely not herself. Look at Card29's W who's attitude in the last few months suddenly made sense when she revealed her A. Yours will have a different explanation, but I mean that you don't have enough info to make sense of it. Still, it's really strange that you have one of the most"fearful" wife yet no explanation even for the S. I really wish we'll know more one day!

[MCS]

Mozza,

I understand what you are saying, but I think my main concern is the total dysfunctional communication that we have.

At first, I had some huge trust issues, I actually thought the first weekend that she left then wanted the kids after disappearing for over a week and didn't want to tell me where she was taking them or when she was going to bring them back that she had some sort of emotional breakdown and I was actually fearing for their safety. That was a horrible feeling. Mainly I felt there was something seriously wrong, because the BD was so unexpected for everyone and she went from 0-60 within a day would start to work on Reconcile than change back day after day during BD week (found out later she was talking to OM each day at work.) Then weeks later, I found out about OM, and all of the things she did with the kids to put him first before, during and after the S and that then wrecked my trust even more.

I've told her this at mediation and said that it would take a while for me to begin trusting her because she's admitted that she's been deceiving me and everyone else over the last year (as well as other EA's that I had no clue over the last 15 years.) I have felt my trust in her is getting better but to be honest; she's so different I'm not sure if what's she's doing is being done upon advice from her Lawyer on how to counteract 'abandonment.' I was told by her BF that she never realized that she could be accountable for that by just up and disappearing. She literally looked into my D4's eyes, said bye and got in the car and disappeared for days. As far as abandonment, she' doing exactly what she would need to come back from totally leaving the kids behind....keep paying bills, make an effort to be with the kids, try and make the time a true 50/50 and go to counseling.

So over-analyzing, mind-reading, trying to make sense of it all below. I haven't shared most of this on the board, because it doesn't matter in DB, because its in the past. But for the most part, I've pieces this together knowing the W and her personality, how our M was before/after kids and the M for the last year, and some things that she said to me when we did connect. I've come up with this....


So, she pretty much admitted to me that for the month prior to BD; she was trying everything to get OM to leave his GF and be with her instead. The hotel room, texting pictures, buying stuff for him, etc. I think he said 'no' and W decided that instead of facing me on this A that ended and I had no clue, it was better to leave. We never talked about how infidelity would affect our M ever, but her BFF got cheated on and when she found out did an accelerated D. I also think she thought leaving me would push him over the edge to leave GF. Then the House purchase (within 1/4 mile of OM) and ~30 minutes from D4 Daycare and S5 School was another push to make it easy for him to leave. There's a bunch more pursuit I saw when I was trying to figure this all out that definitely showed that she was 'all in' on trying to get him.

I think not confronting me about the A for over a year is where the 'fear' and 'paranoia' came in about me, she held the secret from everyone including BFF's. I think if she felt that if she told me I'd go ballistic, I'd tell everyone what happened and she'd get a Scarlet Letter. Well, after I told her I knew about OM (and screwed up and told her our friends had to convince me that there was an A,) she told me 'everything' (which I'm sure is not everything) and I said "Ok, I understand that we got into this....let's try to see if we can make it work." Which caused her to open a little, but then realize she wasn't ready to give up on him (I said I didn't want to be 'Plan B') or ever prepare to go back to our M. So, now that's still not working and she still thinks if I find out more of what and how long things have happened that I'll go ballistic, (or worse yet for her, say I'm still willing to work on M) but doesn't want to tell me because she's still thinking there's no turning back.

Anyway, to me it seems we still have that emotional connection to share things and it makes her vulnerable to opening up more than she's comfortable doing, so she's avoiding it at all costs. Then, she's a very motivated person to follow through on what she starts and I think that's where she's trying to keep herself convinced that she left all because of me and not because she tried to start a formal R with OM and it fell through. Found out today she stopped talking to BFF's again about the sitch and has moved on to 'other friends' that are helping her out (i.e. OM and GF)

Lastly, I think I struggled with what went wrong in M because at first I was looking at the last year. Well, I look back now at the time the A started and it was a rough 6 months or so for the M. I was busy at work, she was overwhelmed, kids were a handful, etc. I remember her telling me things to change and I did, but I think the A had taken hold by the time I changed and she was starting to emotionally check out even though M got better (confirmed by W through a friend.) At that time, its seems like depression may have started to kick in because of what she was doing and her self esteem dropped because she was leading 2 lives. So even though I changed, it was too late and when she BD'd she said she felt guilty all the time when she's around me (which I think was a symptom of hiding the A.) But I bought it during BD and it was an easy out of the M for her because I was so clueless.

Anyway, sorry but today, it's good to write this down. Days like today I start to believe that I'm the horrible person she says I am; but looking back through here; I have a responsibility in the destruction of our M, but not solely. That helps my mood tonight, I guess.

[MCS]

Mozza,

I talked to the MC about an 'ideal' schedule for kids that age. He said there really is none, but to maintain consistency.

Also, I'm being a Debbie Downer today, because there were a few good things about our session.

A) MC suggested that we bring in the kids to a session. Mainly because W says kids a resilient and fine. I say they're doing okay given circumstances, but emotionally struggling. W said that them telling us things about getting back together was most likely them trying to manipulate us to get what they want. I half agree sometimes, but that's not the case all the time. S5 came home from school today with a drawing of Mom, Dad, S5, D4, Dog. With one roof over all of us. He said, look Dad, I made this picture for Mom....Mommy's back home with us and we're all together.

B) while in the beginning of the session she said she felt our level of communication was just find for us co-parenting, by the end with the MC prodding; she admitted that when we talk together it reduces both of our stress and tensions about the sitch and talking helps us clear up miscommunications

[jim0987]

Hi MCS. Sounds like a difficult position. I'd love to have great advice for you.

My wife won't budge on anything kid related (just says that she is standing up for herself and spouts some stuff about research she's done - usual implys I'm unstable at the same time). Its very difficult to agree with someone who won't negotiate.

As for the fear/trust thing it makes it so hard and everything way more tense than it needs to be, which then triggers whatever the fear was

[edz]

MCS / Jim

this is a difficult one. Jim you know the time I've had so far and theres a long road ahead, MCS not sure if youve read through my thread(s) but as a precis I didnt have the best relationship with my s due to distancing with my w and the usual nonsense we convince ourselves is important until we realise it isnt. One of the main reasons W quoted in leaving was the (lack of) relationship with my s and him not knowing where he stood with me. I've worked very, very hard on that and have gone from w keeping s away for 4 weeks to him now staying with me at least once a week for a night, very occasionally 2.

Anyway thats background but my point is that w is very, very controlling as she puts out feelings that she's still being convinced the obvious changes in me are permanent and that those that affect s wont flip back. Any time I raise discussion on s visiting for more than one night she says she doesnt want "to set a precedent" for him (always emphasised) so he wont pester her to stay with me. Interestingly whenever the subject of week on/off is raised its by w who then strikes it down as being in the far future. Me I've only mentioned it the once way,way back in August in a fog when I hadnt seen him.

I suggested councelling for s, offered to set it up and us all go so it was clear this wasnt an agenda thing, no dice from w.

So enough of my waffling, I think your idea of councelling sounds good, keep it very open and I'd suggest - only suggest - that you let the councellor and kids drive the discussion that way its clear this is only about them and their wellfare and happiness which is clearly what everyone wants.

Only my .02 of course.

Take care

Edz