New England Newcomer

[mahhhty]

I'm new to the forum and as a newcomer here is my story.

I married my soulmate. Our "courtship" was filled with fireworks, happiness, experiences, trips and fun. For the first 12 months of us dating, she scrapbooked each get together with at least one sentence, bound it with pictures and gave it to me as a present. This was our life. I never second guessed that I married the right person and I never wanted anything else.

I graduated from college in MA and moved to CT for work. A year later, she graduated and joined me in CT. I planned an elaborate proposal full of family, friends and experiences to which she said yes. Two years later, she was pregnant, we were moving back home to NH, building a house there, and both of our companies were allowing us to work from home. At the same time, she was diagnosed with a very rare kidney disorder (that her father, aunt & uncle have which requires a transplant later in life). Because of the disorder she was a high risk pregnancy. Two years later we added a second child. He came into the world with a bang, & almost killed my wife. He followed that up with a 19 day stint in the NICU.

As parents we continually put our children first, second, third and fourth. We didn't have a date night with each other until 18 months after each kid was born. Quality time, sex, shared experiences and resolution from communication was all on the decline. On the incline, was stress and careers. I traveled for 96 days between July 2013 & Jan 2014. Which she was very supportive at the time. However, each time I came home things seemed further disconnected. She was also traveling for work. Further complicating our life.

In Jan 2014, I approached her noticing that things were different and not in a good way. She identified to me that “she wasn’t happy.” She told me she wanted to discuss things with her Dad (her rock and a good listener). I tried to be supportive not fully understanding what was going on and carved out time so they could go snowboarding together. Time went by. I found out this fall that she didn’t talk with her Father until June. After more time, what I thought was her thing was definitely our thing. In Aug/Sept, she started to explain things to me. Her premises were/are:

1 - I love you, but I’m not in love with you
2 - I’m not happy
3 - People don’t change
4 - Relationships aren’t work

These premises don’t promote healthy relationships. Furthermore, she believed over a year and a half earlier, that I had an affair on business travel. It was at this point that I figured out things needed to change, but she wanted nothing to do with therapy of any kind. So, I started working on me… I went to a therapist, and also picked up DB book to improve my immediate chances of repairing my marriage. Half way through the book, I also scheduled mentoring with a DB coach. My journey and emotions have run the entire spectrum. As a person willing to make so many changes and conduct interpersonal discovery, I am angry that I never got an ultimatum or was never propositioned by her for change. On November 2nd she moved out, we are working through lawyer mediation now.

She is a private person, who doesn’t like confrontation, and is slightly stubborn. By the time I joined the conversation the seed was planted and her resolution was to remove me from the equation, & therefore, she will be happy. Similar to a WAW.

Thanks to her, I have learned more about myself (what I need/want from a relationship, my relationship viewpoints, my insecurities) in the past 3 months than I have in the last 5 years. I am re-evaluating my life, creating new goals and priorities. Investing time on re-identifying myself with me.

Don’t get me wrong, I am hurt to more core, I miss her, I love her and I am very upset/disappointed. However, it is my job to make sure that this isn’t the defining moment of my life. I have two wonderful children who need a caring, strong, supportive father. I am the only father they will ever have. It is my job to be that person.

Two ideas that are constantly on my mind:
1 - We did not choose poorly. We choose not to change as our relationship did.
2 - I can’t control her or the things she says and does.

Some days I am ready to take on the world and other days I don’t even want to look in the mirror. That is a part of grieving unfortunately. Also, it is part of detaching (I’m definitely within the last resort technique at this point).

This is an 873 word glimpse into my New England DB Story.

[Cadet]

Welcome to the board

Get out and GAL.

DETACH.

Believe none of what she says and half of what she does.

Have NO EXPECTATIONS.

Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.

You are on moderation right now on the forum.
SO post in small frequent posts until you get off of it.

Your W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.

USE it wisely.

Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon

[NH115]

mahhhty,

So sorry you are here, but I understand where you're coming from.

The post from Cadet is their standard post, and it is 100% right.

The bad news. You can't do or say anything that will "convince" your W to stay with you if she doesn't. Most of the posters on this forum are here because we want our spouses back, but only for the right reason, and that is because he/she WANTS to be with us. This question can only be answered by them, and in their own time. You will have to call on reserves of patience you didn't know you had, if you want your M to have the best chance of survival.

The good news (this list is longer)

Your mindset is excellent. You have come a long way in your sitch. I think you're on the right track.

You will grow as a person in ways you haven't even thought of yet. People don't grow through happiness and contentment, unfortunately, they grow through hardship. I liken my sitch to basic training to prepare for the remainder of my life. Your pain is real, but use it to your advantage. Don't waste your pain.

You have come to the right place! Listen to the vets on this board (not me, I'm a noob). Their wisdom has been invaluable to me. This forum has become my warm safe place where I come to vent, to ask questions, and get support. I also just use it as a space to journal. That is fantastic therapy.

My advice:

Continue to post on here. It's been a godsend to me. As Cadet mentioned, make small frequent posts so you'll get off moderation faster.

GAL and work on mahhhty. This is critical. Stay out of W's sandbox. Continue to get stronger as a man. Show her that you're your own man and will be fine regardless of what she does. Neediness and pursuit are huge turnoffs to a WAW. Do things that you enjoy and keep you busy. Take up something new that you've always wanted to do. No time like the present. Above all make sure you're a strong, positive, loving dad to your kids.

Take care of yourself! Eat well, get in shape, sleep. If you are physically healthy you'll be better prepared to handle whatever happens.

I look forward to more posts from you.

[NH115]

One thing I forgot. You mentioned you read DB. Excellent book, but make sure you pick up DR. It goes into more detail.

[Mozza]

Welcome here mahhty - as you already know, it's a good place for support and advice. Your case is almost textbook and sounds a lot like mine. The problem is that even if it's textbook, we don't know if it means they'll come back. You'd think they'd wake up some day.

This, especially, I've heard:

1 - I love you, but I’m not in love with you
2 - I’m not happy
3 - People don’t change
4 - Relationships aren’t work

3 and 4 hurt me the most. They're false and said to build a fence around their decision.

Do you know if she has someone else lined up? You make no mention of an OM (other man). I ask because my W lied to me until I figured it out myself, but the OM was there all along.

Another thing that isn't clear: what's your goal? Do you still want to save your M? If so, how much are you willing to put into it? Or are you here for self-preservation and development?

[NH115]

Your WAW will come up with all kinds of reasons why she's not happy. I've heard those 4 things from mine before, almost verbatim. My W:

Criticized that I read books more than she does

Criticized that I play golf. Not that I play golf too much, but that I play at all. The last round I played was in 2012.

Castigated me for saying something 15 years ago about us "not deserving a vacation". I remember saying that during a time of financial stress. Never mind that we have taken at least a dozen vacations since then with my full enthusiastic support.

She's attacked my worth as a husband and as a man.

She's the one who decided to cultivate an EA with OM, but she blames me for putting her in a place where she was vulnerable. SMH

My point is that a WAS will dig up anything they can to justify why they feel the way they feel. That's where the rule about not believing anything they say comes into mind. If they have a complaint that you feel is valid, then honestly address it and work on it for you, not for her. But don't get sucked in when she's spewing nonsense. They may not know it, but they want you to remain strong, even when they're floundering.

And I hate to say it, but Mozza is right. You need to make sure there's not an OM, even if it's just in her own mind. Women aren't often willing to blow up their own family unless they think there's someone better waiting in the wings. My W says she hasn't been happy with me for a decade, but it's interesting that she didn't get unhappy enough to want to leave until after she decided that OM got her motor running back in August.

[GoatGal]

Really nice posts, Rzrback!

Regarding a potential OM:
There has been some discussion about whether or not to find out if there is another man/woman involved.
While I understand that it will cause heartache to the LBS and possibly negatively impact future interactions with the WAS, to me, knowing whether or not family funds are being spent financing an affair, not exposing ourselves to STD, and not being taken advantage of as a cuckold when you find out you're the last one to know... well, that's something each of us has to decide for him/herself.

If you decide to go on a OM hunt, check in here first.
Because if you DO find evidence of either a physical or emotional relationship, you're going to be hit like a ton of bricks and things are going to turn very ugly in your interactions with your wife.

So don't go snooping until you have more feedback here.
Don't accuse her of anything when you don't have proof. That just comes up as jealous and insecure--two big turnoffs.

Just keep observing her closely without reading much into her behavior, because she will contradict herself at every turn. Simply keep that idea in the back of your mind, because WAS are going to lie to you. And then lie some more.
Even if they think they're telling you "their truth" because they just really don't know what they want, most of the time.

Be prepared to be painted as the bad guy. It's how they justify their behavior. Because if you weren't so terrible, then they'd be terrible people for doing this to a decent person. Can't have that, so they demonize us.

Don't take her actions personally.

Someone said, I think the wise Sandi2: "Q-TIP" =
Quit
Taking
It
Personally.

Most of the time, it's not really about you, it's ALL ABOUT THEM.

But definitely own your own failings in the M and work hard to figure out what those might be. Get started on fixing them. The more you improve yourself, the less our spouses can see that person they need to leave so badly.

Talk less--DO more.


---(G)GGG

[Dawn70]

Hi and welcome. Sorry you find yourself here, but this is a GREAT place to get some awesome advice from good folks. Take what they say and use it to help you. You will get some really good input.

[Georgia Bulldogs]

When they say "ILYBNILWY", it's typically, but not always, because they have a point of comparison. It's wayward wife speak for I love someone else now.

If there is an OM is quite likely a married (or now divorcing) man, probably a co-worker (because it's easiest to hide). She's invested in getting a divorce BEFORE announcing her new found love to the world and the only reason a woman typically does this ( waiting) is because the OM is still married trying to sort out his situation without telling anyone. Perhaps he has no intention of divorcing his wife and your wife is content being his mistress.

Her accusations towards you about your suspected affair a couple years ago give her a good excuse and fill up her rationalizations and justifications just enough to allow her to divorce and abandon you.

I hope I'm wrong. Infidelity [censored]. Her illness and near death experience has likely shaken up her world view (or damaged her emotionally and physically) that she's now losing her competence.

Then again, if I'm right you have an explanation for your situation and can then make decisions about your life from there.

[mahhhty]

Wow! Great stuff thank you all very much. I am going to tackle these one by one, but I approach each and every one. Thank you!

[mahhhty]

You will grow as a person in ways you haven't even thought of yet. People don't grow through happiness and contentment, unfortunately, they grow through hardship. I liken my sitch to basic training to prepare for the remainder of my life. Your pain is real, but use it to your advantage. Don't waste your pain.

This is definitely true! I have learned more about myself and about relationships in 4-5 months than I have in 10 years. I already feel more prepared for the future, but I am still on the emotional roller coaster.

[mahhhty]

3 and 4 hurt me the most. They're false and said to build a fence around their decision.

Do you know if she has someone else lined up? You make no mention of an OM (other man). I ask because my W lied to me until I figured it out myself, but the OM was there all along.

3 & 4 were hurtful, and when I first heard them like most, I didn't take it well. I understand now that she was building a wall to support her behavior. At the time, I just didn't get it.

I thought for a long time that there was a OM. I asked her on multiple times and the answer was always No. As of two months ago her family didn't know of one either. I obviously can't continue to ask and am no longer trying to find out. Although I would love to know. I can't control that.

Another thing that isn't clear: what's your goal? Do you still want to save your M? If so, how much are you willing to put into it? Or are you here for self-preservation and development?

My goal... It has always been to save my marriage. I am confident (120%) believe that I married my soulmate. "It isn't that we choose poorly, it is that we choose not to change when our relationship needed change." I miss her and I love her. I am seeing a therapist (going on 7 weeks), stopped drinking for month (now only drinking socially as part of GAL), I've had 6 sessions with the nicest DB Coach you could ask for, and I've analyzed and overanalyzed many things I am sure (I'm an engineer but not a socially awkward one). I don't want to look back on this event and think that I should have done more. Thats why I am trying to do so much. However, what I have noticed is that as I pour myself into change, the lack of any change or confrontation of our real issues on her end is upsetting and disappointing. I know that I can't expect it, but it is disappointing, and so the last couple days, I've been able to imagine life alone.

[mahhhty]

Be prepared to be painted as the bad guy. It's how they justify their behavior. Because if you weren't so terrible, then they'd be terrible people for doing this to a decent person. Can't have that, so they demonize us.

I've definitely felt this. Her own sister apologized to me. Now I am this awful person. I get it. I don't agree but I get it.

But definitely own your own failings in the M and work hard to figure out what those might be. Get started on fixing them. The more you improve yourself, the less our spouses can see that person they need to leave so badly.

This is Cadet's gift of time. I am on it. Of course it is my perception of my own failings. But I am making the most of my new opportunity!

[mahhhty]

When they say "ILYBNILWY", it's typically, but not always, because they have a point of comparison. It's wayward wife speak for I love someone else now.

Georgia Bulldogs... I just quoted the top, but the entire post is definitely relevant. She has never been a person to lie or withhold things. However, as time went on, she withheld the affair acquisition and withheld the idea of her happiness from me. Our communication as a couple was awful (but great as parents), and our love languages were not being spoken. I am cognizant that there could be another man and I'll find out about it after the divorce. But after asking 4 times I can't ask again. I've been dealing with it by telling myself that it is something I can't control.

[mahhhty]

This is definitely the right place for support thank you all!

[mahhhty]

*********New update and need some advice on how to handle situation....

We have been doing lawyer mediation to work through the divorce, and we have been progressing through the process with very few fights or arguments. Until Child Support.

The mediation lawyer filled out the state's Child Support Guidelines form and sent us a copy before Thanksgiving, we never talked about the form during mediation and haven't had mediation since. The form identified me as the obligor, her as the obligee and at the bottom stated I should pay her $1,430 a month. As I started to educate myself on the guidelines I found a ton of areas of concern because I have the kids 50% of the time and we both make about the same (i.e. the amount, me being assumed the obligor, how can I afford this when I have the kids 50% of the time, errors in the data used, not understanding the form itself).

I tried to explain my concerns to her, but all she heard was that I didn't want to pay. She didn't her that I would actually be in the red, or that this would impact my ability to provide for the kids when they were with me.

However as a result of the stalemate, we both decided to speak to lawyers to get our concerns answered. She spoke with one and sent me an counter offer which was $250 less. I thanked her for the offer and asked her if she talked with the lawyer about any of my concerns to gain perspective. She did not answer.

My consultation with the lawyer was yesterday. The lawyer identified that 95% of the time she handles 50/50 custody cases two values on the form are subtracted from each other resulting in the payment. In this situation my payment would be $400 a month.

It isn't that I don't want to take care of my kids, it is the principal that she believes something so incorrect that it could bankrupt me.

How should I approach this with her? I am afraid all she will hear is that I don't want to take care of my family.

[Wonka]

My suggestion is to have your L communicate this to your W's L. This way, L is the authority on this and can handle negotiations with your W's L. This removes you from being the "bad guy" here and protects you.

Good luck!

[mahhhty]

Thanks Wonka... That is definitely a good way to deal with it.

[mahhhty]

Feeling a little somber tonight. The kids and I had a good day. Cut down a Christmas Tree, decorated it and the house. The house that I built with the W. Definitely tough being the one left behind.

Looking forward... I read the MLC post from a couple years ago and ordered The Solo Partner and Divorce Remedy. An early Christmas present to myself and hopefully, to my family.

Also, every night (for the most part) the person without the kids calls the one with the kids to say goodnight. Is this a good idea? Should I try to discontinue this? My kids are D4 & S2. So I think its really important for them to hear/talk to the other parent, but I'm not sure how it's affecting my path. I try to talk only about the kids. I don't ask questions about her, and I keep my answers short.

[mahhhty]

Also, every night (for the most part) the person without the kids calls the one with the kids to say goodnight. Is this a good idea? Should I try to discontinue this? My kids are D4 & S2. So I think its really important for them to hear/talk to the other parent, but I'm not sure how it's affecting my path. I try to talk only about the kids. I don't ask questions about her, and I keep my answers short.

I'm trying to go dark, so I believe this is a good idea from that perspective. However, I don't want to influence the kids relationship with their mother, unfortunately they are caught in the middle and definitely miss her at home. Thoughts?

[Mozza]

No advice, just my experience. I don't speak to my kids at all when they are with their mom and vice versa (we alternate weeks). They don't seem to mind at all. I know a friend who separated when his kids were 4 and 2 (now 10 and 8) and they almost never call and when they do, the kids don't like it because they miss the other parent even more.

[mahhhty]

Thanks Mozza. I'm going to see how it goes in the next couple days or maybe a week. Today was tough on the kids we are at the end of a one week stint. They really miss her. As do I. But instead of focusing on that we went swimming and out to eat.

[mahhhty]

Thanks to all the Vets, there has been a ton of older threads & success stories coming back into circulation. I am very thankful for all of this.

Consider yourself warned... I'm somewhat journaling today...

I have been spending a lot of time reading other's stories and reflecting on me to make sure I am working on the right areas and paying attention to the right things.

My son was born in 2012, and he came into the world with a bang. High Risk Pregnancy, Ambulance, NICU, Surgery, etc. With the two kids in the house, it was harder for me personally. I struggled with the two kids. I love babies and kids, but I'm not fully comfortable with babies and I think the two kids in the house was a huge adjustment for me, nor did I have any baby experience prior.

That mixed in with losing communication, being a homeowner, quality time and intimacy with the W and the increase of our careers, I believe I lost my identity and struggled with withdrawal and/or some depression. At times I felt like I lost my best friend (my wife) and was replaced by the kids. It wasn't like we worked on things together at that point (besides the kids). I was relying on her to tell me plans for the week. I even lost my sense of style and relied on her for advice. And when I did have a voice I am afraid it was more of a negative one.

There was an interesting moment in April 2013, almost a year after my son was born that I went on a whitewater kayaking trip down south with friends (this was something I used to do a lot, but haven't do to children). I wore a backwards hat and facetime'ed from TN. The first thing she said was "wow you look good," and the last thing she said was "you seem really happy."

If everything she is telling me is true (which it may or may not be, speaking basically to her telling me there is no OM), that was probably a turning point where she benchmarked me on how I looked and felt and perhaps is a point of comparison to the person she was seeing on a regular basis.

I'm going to do some hard thinking about my 180s and post them all next time.

Right now she has been on business travel for a week. So she hasn't been pushy about solving the child support issue or going to mediation appointments.

[lost18]

Hi Mahhhty, not much advice for you, just wanted to stop by and show my support.

Regarding your vacation, unfortunately in everyday life we have too much stress, kids, jobs, finances, household chores. On vacation we are able to relax and I guess are much more attractive to spouses, I think it's natural. My H has told me in the past that he liked me more when we were on vacation. If only we could live on vacation!

[Georgia Bulldogs]

When they say "ILYBNILWY", it's typically, but not always, because they have a point of comparison. It's wayward wife speak for I love someone else now.

Georgia Bulldogs... I just quoted the top, but the entire post is definitely relevant. She has never been a person to lie or withhold things. However, as time went on, she withheld the affair acquisition and withheld the idea of her happiness from me. Our communication as a couple was awful (but great as parents), and our love languages were not being spoken. I am cognizant that there could be another man and I'll find out about it after the divorce. But after asking 4 times I can't ask again. I've been dealing with it by telling myself that it is something I can't control.

I don't think you should ask her again either. Waywards lie.

I'm also not suggesting you investigate and snoop on your wife indefinitely.

I'm merely proposing that you rule out the fact that it's likely she's having an affair with another person and THAT is what is ripping your family apart versus strictly just a MLC sort of thing.

Your wife seems in a hurry to rap this divorce up and that's probably because she wants to be able to tell people (including OM's friends and family) that they started dating around the time or after she ended up divorcing. Years done the road that history will again be revised to say they met and started dating as she (they) were already exiting or divorced from awful spouses.

You mention waiting until after the divorce to find this out but were you aware the divorce process itself gives you the power and right to discovery??? IF you make an initial outside verification that there IS actually an OM (maybe hire a PI) then you can perhaps request a deposition or send some simple interrogatories asking for written or testimonial verification about the truth of your divorce. Phone records could be requested and depending no the state you could even depose the OM. You also may have the right to specifically demand that your children not be exposed to OM in the custody order.

This isn't a matter of punishing your wife. This is matter of documenting your life and protecting your children. If you end up divorced and THEN try to discover or verify she's dating someone else she'll just say she started seeing him that week or the last month and you are a crazy possessive jealous EX husband with no right to invade or questions her choices and decisions. The OM could be some perverted child molester with a criminal history but you'll have missed your opportunity to document or discover any of that and protect your children.

I KNOW you trust your wife and think looking her dead in the eye will give you some sense of veracity and that her prior trustworthiness and upstanding behavior means you should give her a lot of latitude. I also know that you think NOT trusting her will upset her but she is divorcing you and has PROBABLY been cheating on you for quite awhile and she is PROBABLY manipulating your lack of trust to make you feel bad hoping you'll stop investigating her while completely abusing you to your face and behind your back. Years from now...absent documenting the truth before the divorce, she'll rewrite your marital history to everyone around you including your children. Sure you may share YOUR side but your children won't know what to believe because there won't be any proof requiring anyone to tell the truth. The divorce will become mostly YOUR fault.

Strategically for your divorce and for your own health and sanity, please independent verify the truth about your (and your daughter's) life. It may really suck to find out I was right, but it'll be worse if you find out a year from now and find yourself already the bad guy and if you complain or talk about it THEN you'll just be the mean old vindictive ex-husband and you'll play right into the trap of it all being YOUR fault.

Finally.

Knowing the truth allows you to address the problems in your marriage honestly. Perhaps your marriage and family CAN be recovered someday, even after the divorce IF you know the truth. If you and your wife divorce and the secret affair remains a secret she may never consider recovery with you because she'll think you could never forgive her if you knew the truth. Plus, she'll want to go to her grave holding the secret and realize reconciliation with you built upon a lie would be pointless. Thus, discovering the truth also increases your odds of reconciliation.

If I'm wrong. So be it. It's not a crime to hire a private investigator nor is it unhealthy to attempt to verify the truth about your life and try to narrow down the problems in your relationship with your wife. People with nothing to hide don't sweat being investigated or questioned.

[mahhhty]

Georgia B -
I've been thinking about this since you wrote it. I can see it's value and how it would be potentially liberating. I can also see the breakdown in trust (if in fact she is not lying, which is possible). I do fully agree that knowing the truth allows me to efficiently address the problems in the marriage honestly. I appreciate the advice. I'm not sure which way I am going to go yet.

[mahhhty]

Update... journaling... again...

I haven't seen her since Thanksgiving morning at her parent's house, when I was picking up the kids. Where our parting gesture was a hug. The hug was received. I went in one armed and she came in for the real thing.

Days before I was at a wake with my parents and sister's family. She came to pay respects and gave all of my family a hug, but didn't give me a hug. I was hurt by this, and decided I would "Be the change I wish to see in the world" - (Gandhi).

On the 5th, I took off my wedding band after reading some posts. Her's is already off. I took mine off bc it shows that I am not holding on (basically arguing with her), and I don't think keeping it on helps me get where I want to go.

Yesterday she returned from a 6 day business trip. Which was nice. It was like a mini-vacation. Where I didn't have to deal her constant pressure of D tasks. As of last night, we are emailing back and forth again to work through items. I'm trying to keep the emails light and upbeat, I'm thinking/re-reading prior to sending, trying not to be impulsive, and I'm not arguing with her (as I can't control your opinion).

I've been thinking a lot about identifying all of my 180s. Here is what I'm on.

180s:
- I am re-identifying with myself... bc I lost my identity as an individual
- I am more present... bc I was withdrawn
- I am trying to be happier... bc I wasn't
- I am trying to learn about relationships... bc I wasn't knowledgable
- I am trying to be more aware & appreciative... bc I was passive & assuming
- I am trying to be more laid back, compassionate & understanding... bc I was judgmental, high strung & stressed
- I am trying to be more attractive... bc I was loosing fashion sense from working at home
- I am working out consistently... bc I have always struggled with long term dedication
- I am traveling less and working on my startup more... bc I was traveling a lot and bc I want the independence of my own business (one of my dreams)

In short, my goal is to be happier, healthier, and to be a better Father, Son, Friend and hopefully Husband.

I have been focusing on:
- GAL
- Sandi2's Rules
- The Serenity Prayer
- "Be the change you wish to see in the world" - Gandhi
- "The finest steel has to go through the hottest fire." - Nixon
- With time comes clarity
- "Act as if by showing that you will be happy regardless of S's choice. You show strength by finding some new friends/activities aside from spouse. Actions speak louder than words." - Someone in the forum, much smarter than me

I am struggling but getting better with GAL & going dark. However, I am really concerned if we spend more time together that I will backslide.

It's a cold, rainy day in NE. I miss her.

Good day for Otis...
"...They are lonely, Lonely and feeling blue..."

[lost18]

On the 5th, I took off my wedding band after reading some posts. Her's is already off. I took mine off bc it shows that I am not holding on (basically arguing with her), and I don't think keeping it on helps me get where I want to go.

I was thinking about doing that after Christmas. Of course I like your reasoning better than mine. H took his off a couple of years ago because he broke his finger. My big concern is my kids, they still don't know this is going on. Although, I'm sure they know something isn't right.

Good post, you sound like you are doing really well with DBing!

[mahhhty]

My big concern is my kids, they still don't know this is going on.

That is tough. I don't think either decision is right or wrong. But it may spook the kids prior to Christmas. My kids are much younger, and don't understand that piece.

One thing my wife did was take hers off and leave it off for extended periods. She'd take it off washing the dishes and then wouldn't put it back on for 4-5 hours. Or take it off while sleeping and put it back on at noon. Perhaps something like that would be mysterious enough to make him start thinking.

[mahhhty]

I'm fairly certain I backslide today. We are still unable to come to common ground in regards to child support.

She made a counter offer a week ago. I countered today, and she disagrees. I'm afraid its going to go to lawyers and then to court. She is living in a world where she believes I am responsible to pay for her lively hood. We have both made counter offers, which I guess is a start. It was interesting at one point, she started to break down and tell me that she only has $300 in savings. I responded saying I don't have money to close on the house refinance, also I have borrowed money from my sister and parents. She cut me off and basically said "Don't tell me that, I don't care." Or at least that's how I took it.

I need to get better at interacting with her one on one. From what I can see, she is classic WAS, and is now hitting rock bottom. She saw a doctor because of hives last week, which he said was due to stress. She looks for me to solve her problems but in the way that she wants.

In backsliding, I think I:
- talked about the future, and the need for us to communicate for our children
- I analyzed her thinking, and tried to identify why it was wrong
- I wrote the following in an email. I am sure this is bad and shouldn't have been said. "Divorce is not the solution to anyone's problems. We as individuals and as a coparents will always have issues until we address them. Divorce takes a couple with communication issues and burdens them with the most emotional decisions of their life, which makes it exponentially harder to communicate. Especially, if you’ve been communicating poorly in the past. You are latched to me, whether you like it or not for the rest of your life. I can tell in your emails and phone calls that you despise me, and that hurts. You have notions of me as a person, father, a husband. Resentment is in me to. But we have got to start communicating for our kids."

I need to get better one on one. I have to stop trying to convince her that I am right. I have to come to terms that I am not always right. And I have to accept that at the end of the day its not about being right or wrong, but our perceptions of what is.

[mahhhty]

My buddy heard an interview on NPR that he told me about.

NPR was interviewing a specialist in relationships. The specialist stated at some point in everyone's lives they will be wholeheartedly convinced a divorce is the only way. What they need to come to terms with is that they could be wrong. People convince themselves by turning feelings into thoughts. Feelings are feelings, they are not thoughts. Thoughts can be rationalized and accepted as the truth after thinking about it. The problem here is when people skip steps. They accept feelings as the truth, and therefore no longer keep them in check.

Thought it was interesting.

[lnlyshp]

That is very interesting. I wish I could listen to that interview (or rather, that my W would!) I've always thought that unless there is abuse, drugs or something extreme in the relationship that it could always be repaired or rebuilt. Hope that is true for both of our situations, mahhhhty

[mahhhty]

Rough couple of days. My birthday is tomorrow. First one in 9 years that she won't be involved in. We have been going back and forth with Child Support. I feel like I'm being flexible. She feels like I'm not being flexible enough. I feel like a bank. Even her mom chewed me out today and told me that she won't let her daughter hit rock bottom. I feel bad that the STBX is hitting the bottom. I couldn't say anything previously to get her to stay, I have to come to terms with the idea that I can't say anything to change her mind or make her see anything.

I think I am trying to hard. I need to detach.

If we got the lawyers involved I would be detached. But what about the cost due to the adversarial relationship. Would it cause too much pain to every overcome?

[Georgia Bulldogs]

Rough couple of days. My birthday is tomorrow. First one in 9 years that she won't be involved in. We have been going back and forth with Child Support. I feel like I'm being flexible. She feels like I'm not being flexible enough. I feel like a bank. Even her mom chewed me out today and told me that she won't let her daughter hit rock bottom. I feel bad that the STBX is hitting the bottom. I couldn't say anything previously to get her to stay, I have to come to terms with the idea that I can't say anything to change her mind or make her see anything.

I think I am trying to hard. I need to detach.

If we got the lawyers involved I would be detached. But what about the cost due to the adversarial relationship. Would it cause too much pain to every overcome?

It's LESS adversarial to some extent because your objective disinterested attorney is doing the hardcore negotiating versus you personally. The bonus is if they get upset you just blame your attorney. "It's not me...it's her/him". PLUS, you'll know it's a reasonable fair deal. In the end, it likely won't cost YOU more money to use an attorney. Just her ...since she can't rip you off.

[Georgia Bulldogs]

In Jan 2014, I approached her noticing that things were different and not in a good way. She identified to me that “she wasn’t happy.” She told me she wanted to discuss things with her Dad (her rock and a good listener). I tried to be supportive not fully understanding what was going on and carved out time so they could go snowboarding together. Time went by. I found out this fall that she didn’t talk with her Father until June.

Are you SURE her father went??? This sounds like a wayward spouse lie. If you know for certain her dad was there, would her dad cover for her? Did she spend a lot of time NOT with her dad? Were you able to reach her consistently?? Did she happen to coincidentally run into someone she knew from high school, college or work???

The trips purpose was to talk to dad and she didn't....so what was the REAL purpose???

I just hate seeing you negotiate a divorce with a terrorist that is likely lying to you AND trying to rob the family's bank as well. If she's wayward your children your protection from her and the OM. They need more time (and custody) with you the sane parent committed to their happiness and you should be fighting for HER to pay you alimony and/or child support while she pursues her wayward lifestyle.

I keep checking back in for the time bomb post telling me I was right OR wrong but closing your eyes and ears from the truth while negotiating your own divorce is just so devastating when you finally discover she lied to you this whole time and OM moves into your home with your wife, children and your child support.

[mahhhty]

Thanks Bulldogs. I am on the brink. I do know her father went on those trips, but I do wonder if there is someone else.

[mahhhty]

Merry Christmas Fellow DB-ers. I wish you all the best reaching your goals!

[mahhhty]

I haven't journal-ed on here in awhile.... Here is the update... My birthday was a week ago tomorrow. I barely got a happy birthday from her. She did get two presents from our kids for me, a $10 tin of assorted popcorn and a movie. Not exactly, what I have been used to in the past.

In the past couple days she reneged our agreement for Christmas Eve and Christmas. She was supposed to come to the house for both Christmas Eve and Christmas Day, but she slipped out of both of those behind an argument that it would be too confusing for the kids. I maintained my cool and responded via text with "I think everyone has some level of confusion with this. We will have to live and learn. It is Christmas, and the kids would want u there (my house, or old home), and therefore I would like u there for them. The kids are resilient. We can explain it to them. However if this isn't something u want or are willing to handle, let me know." She never responded.

However, tonight she did respond back after some logistics posts asking me to go to her parents to see my nieces. This is something we had decided a few weeks ago was not acceptable (she was feeling like an outsider in her own family, and hasn't been receiving support from them), so I have tried to distance myself. And therefore, respectfully decline the invitation.

This part is my real DILEMMA... I have read DB and DR, I have read 5 other books about relationships and communicating. I even read one about divorce. I have had 7 DB coach sessions with an amazing mentor, as well as 8 IC sessions. I stopped drinking for a month, to get my mind right, and I've worked out almost every other day since the beginning of November. I lost 2 inches on my waist, gained some definition and I'm almost to a 6 pack. I've stopped being a YES MAN at work and have put the kids first and foremost, and I truly have become a better more active father. On top of that I'm reconnecting family, friends and with myself and doing more of what makes me happy.

BUT as I go down this path. Two things really bother me. Most people I have spoken with about my changes and my future don't believe it is possible to reconcile things with her. They do not see the possibility, which bothers me.

Also, as I go through this process, I get angry that there wasn't an ultimatum moment. She didn't even want to speak with a therapist at any point. She degraded their position, saying things like "I don't believe in it," or "why do you need someone else in the room to hear what I am saying to you." The irony here is that in our State it is required to do a Child Impact Seminar which is run by a therapist. Months ago when she took the course, she called me after stating that the course was helpful. Here is the woman who doesn't believe in therapists telling me a therapist is helpful, only b/c it now suits her purpose.

[Mozza]

I know it's bothersome that your friends don't see reconciliation as possible. MWD reminds us that it's a personal decision. If you still have hope, stop seeking validation with them. Make it your own. Know also that it's natural for your friends to want to spare you the hurt of unmet expectations. Don't be upset at them. They won't live with the consequences so they go for the quick fix.

I forget: is there an OM? WAS who are in a rush often have something lined up, which would explain the lack of ultimatum. This being said, you'll have to explore further to know if there was one. I said there wasn't for months until I found the smoking gun: an email telling her she's like to find a way to take a break. My brain had erased that memory even though it was recent. It might happen to you.

You should be happy with your changes. I'm impressed. I'm sure your friends are too. Now your task is to integrate them in your lifestyle for yourself, not for your W. As long as you think: "She should come back because I made all these changes", it's not changes that will remain once she's back. It has to become you, not just the BDing you. If you knew today she's never come back, would you continue your changes? Detach until you can say yes.

[mvg]

Mahhty,

We're unfortunately living parallel lives. 31 days ago I was a happily married man and today, waiting to be served as she's got a lawyer already for the D. I'd have to agree about the OM. When I checked in with my wife a month ago, she just "needed to be alone." A week later that was "I need to date other guys." A week later? " I have feelings for him, we've kissed and I haven't love you for 12 years."

This information hasn't done me any good, especially living in a no fault divorce state. I expect to be divorced within 60 days...I wish I never knew about OM. Just my .02

You're not alone, this is the worst pain imaginable. Hope to hear that you're doing well with your kids. That's all any of us really have right?

Happy holidays and keep going.

[mahhhty]

Mozza - Good stuff for a rough night. A lot to think about but definitely helpful.

As long as you think: "She should come back because I made all these changes", it's not changes that will remain once she's back. It has to become you, not just the BDing you. If you knew today she's never come back, would you continue your changes? Detach until you can say yes.

I am definitely guilty of this. I think I am still guilty of grieving, and therefore am not fully committed to the new me. But you are definitely right.

[Mozza]

The reason I know it too I well is that I am in the same position. Only, I know I'm not there yet. It takes patience, even for ourselves.

(By the way, your signature is a little confusing. Who was unhappy and wants a D? It reads like its you. If it's W, put quotation marks of use "W is unhappy".)

[mahhhty]

Thanks Mozza.

She did renege on our agreement about Xmas Eve and Xmas. But then this morning she turned around and agreed to come over to see the kids. Before she came over her father called and invited me to go to their house for Xmas with my in laws. She originally invited me "Because I know you want to see your nieces" (this obviously isn't a very good reason). For her reasoning and because of our previous conversation (where she identified that she didn't want me to go) I said no thank you. Anyway, her father invited me and I spoke to her when she came over and said that I would go.

It was rough, awkward and difficult. It threw me through a loop. I also saw her in a different light. It seemed to me as forced happiness. This is not the girl I married.

Detach. Detach. Detach.

[mahhhty]

Just heard this....

"Some people lose sight of what is important, but that doesn't mean they can't find their way again."

[lost18]

Hope you're doing ok.

[25yearsmlc]

Georgia, please don't take my quoting your post as a slight. I do disagree with a lot of this but not all - and simply think this is the best way to show a difference in opinion.

(Plus, you're a Bulldog and I went to Auburn, so there's that... WAR EAGLE )

When they say "ILYBNILWY", it's typically, but not always, because they have a point of comparison. It's wayward wife speak for I love someone else now.

Georgia Bulldogs... I just quoted the top, but the entire post is definitely relevant. She has never been a person to lie or withhold things. However, as time went on, she withheld the affair acquisition and withheld the idea of her happiness from me. Our communication as a couple was awful (but great as parents), and our love languages were not being spoken.
KEY IN ON THIS^^^ b/c frankly, even if there is an OM, this LL matters a lot.

FTR, I'm NOT big on snooping unless you KNOW it'd be a definitive deal breaker for you. If you are POSITIVE of that, snoop away and then file if you find an OM.


(But IF it is not, then why bother?) You're not under the same roof now anyhow.


I am cognizant that there could be another man and I'll find out about it after the divorce. But after asking 4 times I can't ask again. I've been dealing with it by telling myself that it is something I can't control.

I don't think you should ask her again either. Waywards lie.


I don't think you should ask her again b/c it does not matter AND OR help YOU to ask. Asking so often is all about YOU , not about how "way wards lie".

And if there is no OM ---what would it take to convince you that there ist one?

Then if you keep on asking , I think a slight chance exists that you'll have pushed her into an idea she had not fully contemplated. It certainly makes you look needy/petty and jealous and NOT focused on what she'd like you to focus on. I wonder what SHE would say if she were here...


A lot more women leave marriages without OPs, than men. Statistically speaking it is a rare woman with children who simply leaves her h and marriage unless something essential, INSIDE the marriage, was missing. And she did not believe it would come back...

OR, less often but still not rare, is the woman who is missing something within HER...

You can probably state with some certainty, that she's NO 'serial cheater' so if there is an OM, now, how does that change your path of self improvement?

To ME, the biggest reason NOT to snoop is b/c if there is an OP, the growth and path that the lbs had been on, radically alters.

Now, suddenly - the LBS was a GREAT SPOUSE (what 'issues'?) and it's ONLY b/c of the OP that their WAS is now a "cheating lying scum bag" and

POOF! There goes the self improvement and here comes the self righteousness.



I'm also not suggesting you investigate and snoop on your wife indefinitely.

I'm merely proposing that you rule out the fact that it's likely she's having an affair with another person and THAT is what is ripping your family apart versus strictly just a MLC sort of thing.

I submit there are other options than these 2^^^...far more...it's just not this^^ simple.


Your wife seems in a hurry to rap this divorce up and that's probably because she wants to be able to tell people (including OM's friends and family) that they started dating around the time or after she ended up divorcing. Years done the road that history will again be revised to say they met and started dating as she (they) were already exiting or divorced from awful spouses.


Wow, massive mind reading of a woman none of us knows...and IMO, Not helping.

You mention waiting until after the divorce to find this out but were you aware the divorce process itself gives you the power and right to discovery??? IF you make an initial outside verification that there IS actually an OM (maybe hire a PI) then you can perhaps request a deposition or send some simple interrogatories asking for written or testimonial verification about the truth of your divorce.


TO WHAT END???? ADULTERY IS NOT RELEVANT TO CUSTODY IN ANY STATE-- (absent dangerous or sexual conduct in front of the children). You want to claim she's unfit as a parent??

You want to sue her for adultery as grounds for divorce? Okay in a FEW states that is an option...here are the D laws in NH, which I believe you reside in.

"The vast majority of divorces in New Hampshire are no-fault.

It is possible, however, to state a cause for divorce in New Hampshire for one or more of the following reasons:

impotence,
extreme cruelty,
adultery,

(If adultery is charged, the “co-respondent” must be named in the petition, i.e. the person with whom your spouse is committing adultery),

conviction of a crime punishable for more than one year of incarceration,

treatment by one spouse of the other that could seriously injure health,

abandonment by one spouse of the other for a period of at least two years,

when one party has been in an habitual drunken state for a period of over two years, or

when one party joins a religious sect or society that believes the relations between husband and wife are unlawful and who refuses to cohabit for a period of 6 months or longer.

How To Prove Adultery
There is most likely no such thing as a pleasant adultery case because names, dates, places, paramours, and the like have to be brought out in the open. If your spouse no longer cares about what you know and is open about the affair, you're lucky. You can then catch your spouse flagrante delicto, which means you have essentially caught your spouse in the act and may not have to worry about hiring detectives. However, you may still need a detective to prove your case in court. There is still a need for a corroborative witness, such as a mutual friend or neighbor, who has no stake in the matter except telling the court what he (she) witnessed.

You REALLY want to do this?^^^^ And if so, why? To assign blame? What purpose does that serve? She's not asking to sleep with you so NO argument about an STD fear can be made...

IF it's about money and a lot of it, then maybe I could see it...but I don't see it in this state. IT does NOT change custody and you already are splitting it evenly, right?



Phone records could be requested and depending no the state you could even depose the OM. You also may have the right to specifically demand that your children not be exposed to OM in the custody order.


Unless he is a danger to the kids (and here we are, assuming there IS an OM)...I've never seen ^^ this work. Ever.

This isn't a matter of punishing your wife. This is matter of documenting your life and protecting your children.


Sorry but I So disagree with this assessment^^ that I can barely not capitalize everything.
It does NOT protect your kids at all,

unless your w is 1) having an affair, AND 2) introducing them to the OM
AND 3) the OM is somehow very morally deficient....AND dangerous,

in which case your w has a lot of problems you are glossing over and have not mentioned at all here.

If you end up divorced and THEN try to discover or verify she's dating someone else she'll just say she started seeing him that week or the last month and you are a crazy possessive jealous EX husband with no right to invade or questions her choices and decisions. The OM could be some perverted child molester with a criminal history but you'll have missed your opportunity to document or discover any of that and protect your children.

Wow,^^^ that is some wildly baseless & negative projecting going on...yeah, I'm a L and I have seen this happen, maybe 2-3 times out of oh, 400 times...

Never in an educated career woman, however and never with someone who sounds otherwise pretty normal...are there ANY indications that your wife would over look such a glaringly deviant behavior in OM and expose them to your kids?

B/C you may as well accuse her of being an UNFIT total hosebag scoundrel while you're at it...

and any pretense of a decent relationship going forward, will evaporate. There ARE risks to this "Scorched earth" policy, which is what I see it as.


I KNOW you trust your wife and think looking her dead in the eye will give you some sense of veracity and that her prior trustworthiness and upstanding behavior means you should give her a lot of latitude. I also know that you think NOT trusting her will upset her but she is divorcing you and has PROBABLY been cheating on you for quite awhile and she is PROBABLY manipulating your lack of trust to make you feel bad hoping you'll stop investigating her while completely abusing you to your face and behind your back. Years from now...absent documenting the truth before the divorce, she'll rewrite your marital history to everyone around you including your children. Sure you may share YOUR side but your children won't know what to believe because there won't be any proof requiring anyone to tell the truth. The divorce will become mostly YOUR fault.


Total disagreement. I think the truth ALWAYS prevails, kids are smart, and the messenger of "doom" often gets blamed. IF your wife is now having an affair (and she may not have had one at all AND OR she may have begun a r with OM after the sep or after she told you she wanted one; many if not most WASs feel that once they've openly declared their intent to leave the m, they are free to date. They will NOT see it as an affair and chances are, many others will agree.

ANYHOW, the fact is that later on, the kids ask questions and are smarter than we credit them with being.

I've seen the following event or ones like it, happen a dozen times.

Eventually the kids know that "New Guy"and mom have "dated" 5 years and their "anniversary" is on the 16th, but hold on, wait a minute, "you and dad were still married then!...""""

And the truth comes out. The LBS who has not pointed the finger comes out smelling like a rose for not staining the image the kids have of EACH parent. And when you sully the spouse, the other parent, you DO harm the esteem of each child b/c each child feels that a part of THEM< is from each parent. So if the other parent is a cheating b--", then some part of them isn't so great....

I think this is all euphemisms for vindictiveness and under the guise of "truth seeking" & we are appointing our selves judge and jury (while absolving ourselves of anything "Serious" or "morally wrong"....unlike our spouses....and IMO we harm the kids far more than letting them figure it out themselves, would.
I'm NOT saying to lie for your spouse (IF IF IF there is an OM) but I am saying it's not your job to point the finger.

ALso, have you read the reasons why DB and the author, MWD OPPOSES snooping? B/C she does. It's NOT a tenet of DBing except in the circumstances mentioned.

Finally, you have issues to own and there's simply no way you can do that when your attention is on blaming her for having an affair you don't have any proof of anyhow. And btw, WHY did your w believe you had an affair on a trip you took?

Strategically for your divorce and for your own health and sanity, please independent verify the truth about your (and your daughter's) life. It may really suck to find out I was right, but it'll be worse if you find out a year from now and find yourself already the bad guy and if you complain or talk about it THEN you'll just be the mean old vindictive ex-husband and you'll play right into the trap of it all being YOUR fault.

Why do we care who is "at fault" so much? Where is this contest? Who is the "Winner"? I don't get it...I really don't. The kids are not an issue here. They are sharing them. Why must we assume she's filling the kids with bad news about her h? She may tell her family one thing to justify leaving but they know better already!

This is not a contest of who is at fault. IT's a marriage that may tragically end. And that is enough of a tragedy, isn't it? MUST we appoint a bad guy?

B/C clearly the whole snooping and PI ideas ALL have as the goal, making her the one at fault.

how is that morally superior in any way?


Finally.

Knowing the truth allows you to address the problems in your marriage honestly. Perhaps your marriage and family CAN be recovered someday, even after the divorce IF you know the truth. If you and your wife divorce and the secret affair remains a secret she may never consider recovery with you because she'll think you could never forgive her if you knew the truth.

But snooping, pointing the finger in blame and exposing the ALLEGED A, will INCREASE her belief in his forgiveness?????? Uh, no, I don't think this makes sense. Sorry




Plus, she'll want to go to her grave holding the secret and realize reconciliation with you built upon a lie would be pointless. Thus, discovering the truth also increases your odds of reconciliation.

Well, I'll just say this one last time and move on.

I totally disagree with this^^. Moreover, I think engaging in such baseless and negative projections is a destructive element in your road to self growth and improvement, and in your mental and emotional health. Outside of limited legal reasons, I see virtually nothing positive in it.

If I'm wrong. So be it. It's not a crime to hire a private investigator nor is it unhealthy to attempt to verify the truth about your life and try to narrow down the problems in your relationship with your wife. People with nothing to hide don't sweat being investigated or questioned.


I do. I don't consent to warrantless searches either, and NOT b/c I "have something to hide" - but b/c I deeply cherish my liberty and privacy, and resent needless intrusions into either.

[25yearsmlc]

Mahhty,

I see hope in your situation for several reasons. Your inlaws DO care about you, despite your MIL's concerns for her d.

You were smart to show up, despite the awkwardness. Everyone concerned knows YOU do not want this. Trust me, no one will be fooled by your wife's declaration of how "happy" she is. And in the event of an OM, no one will think she "just met' him either, (for however much that is worth to you.)

I'd back off of saying how 'resilient" the kids are however. We have no idea what this does to them but in my opinion

getting a divorce is a lot like running your kids over with a truck and hoping they'll be fine b/c after all, the surgeon's a great one with kids...

Yes, they will "Survive" in the sense that it won't literally kill them. AND IF you and your wife put them first, they really might be alright.

I have 5 brothers, 3 of whom are divorced. in ONE Case, where the divorce and custody were particularly acrimonious, I think all 3 of their kids are a bit messed up and now, only as they approach their mid-late 20s do they seem to be coming out of it.

The other 2 brothers had decent enough R's with their former wives and truly put their daughter's needs ahead of their squabbling. To MY knowledge, not once was child support or money or OPs ever mentioned to their d's.(Versus the other brother'd ex who wanted money AND shared custody including for her plastic surgery...oops)

Both of the nieces of the brothers with "Decent" divorces, have kind relationships with both parents and the married niece had a LOVELY wedding and her mom and my brother danced and seemed proud.

I toasted them for rising above their differences and really truly SHOWING UP for their daughter.

it showed b/c she's lovely and kind and I think she felt loved by both of them.

So there's that.

But never mind all that for now. Mah, I think the more you focus on yourself and become a man only a fool would leave,

the wackier/more foolish your wife will feel. There IS such a thing as falling in love with your spouse, all over again. It cannot be forced but it can be chosen.

I've seen it and I've done it. So has my husband.

And finally, in 2006 I told my sisters that my marriage was
'over" and that there "might be 10% chance of us reconciling" and I meant every word of it. I had become the WAS after nearly 2 years of being an LBS. But here I am.

I have 2 family members who finalized divorces, only to remarry their former spouses 5 years later, so that too, happens.

Just stay in your sandbox and do YOUR work. That way, no matter what, you really truly will be more than alright. And so will your children.

Besides, no woman is unmoved by the loving interaction of her children and their dad. Some women stay married solely because of that.

Keep on being the best dad you can-

and none of this means you should be risking your financial security (or your kids') to accommodate your wife.
Be a man of strength and honor. I think that means Be fair, be reasonable, be flexible and be principled.

(Sometimes that last one has to take precedence over being flexible.)

(((( )))

[lost18]

many if not most WASs feel that once they've openly declared their intent to leave the m, they are free to date. They will NOT see it as an affair and chances are, many others will agree.

Totally agree, I said as much to my H and he agreed. Although I think he justifies himself this way I have a good feeling that deep down he knows he's wrong.

[mahhhty]

Lost - Thanks for checking up on me. Such a great support system we have on this message board.

25 - Great insight. It is very appreciated. At one point you asked why did she think I had an affair. In the end of 2012 I took a promotion and in July 2013 $hit hit the fan. From 7/5/2013 to the end of the year, I traveled over 95 days for work. I was pulling 100-120 hour weeks, working 7 days a week. I worked 25+ hours straight on 5 different occasions. I become consumed with work. I now that this made it even more difficult for us.

[mahhhty]

The odd behavior from Xmas Day has continued.

Friday via text she invited me to another in-law Xmas function. Her brother and his family came up from VA and they were doing a second Xmas at her sister's house. The reasoning this time was "I know you would like to see my brother." I agreed up front that I would go.

When I got there my nieces ran outside with my kids and her father to walk me in. The kids were really excited to see me and I am always excited to see them. Upon getting in the house her Grandmother came over to me, gave me a hug and told me she loved me. She did this at 5 different times through out the evening. I later found out that she was told that morning of what has been happening.

After I was there for 15 minutes or so, my W cornered me in the room with the kids and gave me a rundown of all the presents she gave people and everything they received, work items, etc. I could tell she was really trying to keep the conversation going. I was pleasant, responsive, and also tending to three girls who wanted to play with me. So I think that was good for me.

About an hour and a half later, she started being real busy, cleaning up, not holding conversations, it was like she was always in the next room, always missing from the crowd. Finally, I started saying goodbyes with the kids (b/c this was also a pick up for me), and we couldn't find her. As we went outside, she was there moving her car to leave. She told me that she was trying to sneak out and she didn't feel well. I thought this was very odd. She wasn't going to say goodbye to the kids or to me.

When the kids finally did say goodbye to her (as she was helping them in their carseats), she began to cry. I believe that she has been having a difficult time around the holidays.

[mahhhty]

I need some insight & advice.....

Our dynamic has changed through this holiday break. Partly because of the holidays and putting the child support conflict on hold for the holidays. As a result, her behavior has been odd, emotional, and confusing from my standpoint.

I am thinking that perhaps the odd behavior is a sign of change. And perhaps I should ask her to go with me to CO to consult MWD. If so, it would be crucial how I phrase it, and also be upfront logistically as we are in New England.

Thoughts....

[labug]

The holidays are tough on everyone, I wouldn't jump to conclusions. There's a saying around here, don't frighten the squirrel. (if a little squirrel gets brave enough to come close to you, don't make any sudden moves and scare it away.)

Did your wife have postpartum depression? If so was she treated? She's gone through a lot of trauma in the last 4 years. Does she see an IC?

I did read your first post and a couple since then. You have a good handle on you and what you can control. Keep that in the forefront.

[labug]

Georgia BD, I see you have few posts but none are about you and your experience.

Have you read DB? This is a sharing and caring community here. I think it's unfair for people to drop in out of the sky and start giving advice when we know nothing about them.

Granted you could make up a story and we might be none the wiser, but those people usually get bored and move on.

[25yearsmlc]

Lost - Thanks for checking up on me. Such a great support system we have on this message board.

25 - Great insight. It is very appreciated. At one point you asked why did she think I had an affair. In the end of 2012 I took a promotion and in July 2013 $hit hit the fan. From 7/5/2013 to the end of the year, I traveled over 95 days for work. I was pulling 100-120 hour weeks, working 7 days a week. I worked 25+ hours straight on 5 different occasions. I become consumed with work. I now that this made it even more difficult for us.

Just so I'm clear, the promotion led to a lot MORE work and travel, correct?

Assuming that's what you are saying, then HECK YES that made it difficult. I'm married to a guy who was NOT an MD or med student when we married. He was in a related field but an easier one. AFTER our son was born, (8 weeks old) h began med school and the hours have never been the same. Unrelentingly long...
& things like 9 Thanksgivings in a row where no daddy was around, just wears on you...

So being a single mom is exactly how I felt and to also be working full time, the unfair distribution of work (at home and at her job--she won't think of how hard YOU are working b/c that's not what she is enduring).

She's doing HER job at work, just like you are at yours...except she's ALSO doing all the childcare while you are gone, which was a LOT. So I suspect some resentment built up....

as for the affair she assumes you had, I have 2 more questions. 1) did you disabuse her of this belief?

and 2) do you think that she assumes it, b/c she cannot wrap her brain around a man being gone from his family that long, willingly, absent an affair?

IF the answer to the second question is "yes, she believes you had an affair BECAUSE she cannot believe you'd be gone that much, just for work", then you have a problem there too. It means that she really did NOT believe the promotion was worth it.

and in hindsight (I know, I know, it's 20 20) do YOU think the promotion was so worth it? B/C if you don't, you might share that with her sometime. Not to assume blame or fault but b/c it DID mean the marriage was more neglected and she was laden with a lot bigger of a burden at home than you were.

I mean, ^^ that's all true, isn't it?

I only harp on this right now b/c you made it sound like a small thing "I now know it made it difficult"---- but I think it was a BIG underlying thing. The good news is that's one of the easier problems to have --- b/c solutions are available.

Okay I'll move on to the rest of your thread now...

[25yearsmlc]

I need some insight & advice.....

Our dynamic has changed through this holiday break. Partly because of the holidays and putting the child support conflict on hold for the holidays. As a result, her behavior has been odd, emotional, and confusing from my standpoint.

She seems confused. This is not rare. It's holidays PLUS the changes being made to her family - and oh by the way, SHE is the causative factor in those changes. Guilt hurts. Unfortunately, when we, the LBSers try to foist guilt onto our spouses, it almost always backfires. I noticed when I'd ask h a question to "Get him to think", I really intended to guilt him and every single time he would get mad AT ME...so yeah, it's not effective coming FROM us...

**My DB coach gave me a tip I'll never forget. She said that certain ways of asking questions are, in reality, designed to elicit defensiveness in the recipient and in those cases, that's not a good idea. That was why it would backfire on me.

The questions to AVOID asking, begin with "HOW Could you....??"

AND OR "WHY Did you 'X' or 'Y'?" (After some reflection, I saw her point. I don't tend to ask questions like that anymore).

Your behavior sounds about perfect, btw. And I LOVE that the grandma made it a point to tell you she loves you. That there, is something to treasure and realize that you are NOT being vilified by your wife (or at least, not effectively). Take solace from that and from the knowledge that if her family sees any move on her end, towards you, it will be amply supported.

I am thinking that perhaps the odd behavior is a sign of change.

MAYBE...maybe NOT...and or, maybe the change is NOT the kind you want...

And perhaps I should ask her to go with me to CO to consult MWD.


Wow no, I don't think this is the time for that at all. I mean, I disagree. The couple I know who went, found it very helpful -but they are divorced. The reason?

B/C one was the LBS and the other was a WAH and he went to check it off the "I tried" List....to no avail. If both had been on the fence, or were just getting a major tune up for their m, THEN it's such a great idea. Then again, maybe you can just ask your DB coach. Mine was a Godsend but I never involved h in it directly. Ever. IT was for MY work and MY changes...

IMO, you should WAIT on that and keep doing what you are doing b/c it may just be working. See LaBug's comment about the squirrel, and keep it in mind.

When things seem to be working, that's when you stay the course. IT's not when you rock the boat. Make sense?


If so, it would be crucial how I phrase it, and also be upfront logistically as we are in New England.

Thoughts....

IF & WHEN SHE brings up something along the lines of "working on the m", then this would be a great time to present her with optionS. (Not just one)

and OR, if she is the one saying this, which I pray is the case, then ask HER for HER thoughts on it...

She's driving the divorce train right now and only SHE can undo that piece.

Back off some more and keep on being the upbeat great catch you are now...

See, here's the simple truth.

NO WAS will return to a marriage he/she left,

UNLESS

he/she believes that marriage can be better/different.

It's your job to demonstrate that you are different and thus, the marriage could be.

(Yes, yes we know SHE has her own work and issues to deal with...but for now, she may not be able to see that and it's certainly not the time to bring it up. But that time will come).

Anyway, Her fears are going to be something like "Sure he's different now, BUT if we reconcile, then he'll revert, & things will go right back to where they stink for me again"

and or

"I'll still have to do all the work and he will travel MORE (-and- who- knows- what- else), while I"m stuck at home

without any passion or romance and my life is not what I wanted it to be....

(which, btw, is what I suspect she feels).

Does any of this ring true or at least possible?

[mahhhty]

This is definitely making a lot of sense, and is of course possible. I do understand the logic. I just thought that while things were slightly different that perhaps I should make a change. But I get it, and I won't rock the boat.

[mahhhty]

As for the questions related to work. My promotion in 2013 definitely increased my workload at home and at work, while also increasing travel.

I didn't meant to sound dismissive. I am fully aware it had a large impact on our relationship, I am also very sure she felt like an only parent. She travels a lot as well, and we would literally pass each other in planes while the grandparents were watching the kids. It was no way to live.

I am trying to find a way to leave that job. My resume is out at multiple other companies, I am also trying to develop my own business. I want to be the father that is present, that isn't stressed with an unworkable situation. I always wanted to be the father that coaches his kids sports teams and I intend on being that person.

[mahhhty]

"I'll still have to do all the work and he will travel MORE (-and- who- knows- what- else), while I"m stuck at home

without any passion or romance and my life is not what I wanted it to be....

(which, btw, is what I suspect she feels).

25 - I am absolutely sure this is how she feels or felt. Someone told me that a lot of WAS leave because they had something to compare to. IF she never had a EA or PA, then I believe she could have compared our current relationship to our relationship from a couple years ago and would realize just how far we have fallen.

I don't fault her for wanting something better.

I would like to say that I fault her for not working on it with me. However, honestly I will never know from her perspective how much she believes to have worked and how much I pushed her away.

The work & stress changed me, and I will not let it drive my life again.

[lost18]

don't fault her for wanting something better.

I would like to say that I fault her for not working on it with me. However, honestly I will never know from her perspective how much she believes to have worked and how much I pushed her away.

Wow, I could have written that. Unfortunate that we live in such a throw away society.

You are getting great advice from 25 and seems you are doing some good things on your own as well. Good luck in your job search!

[labug]

Can you answer my questions from above?

I will never know from her perspective how much she believes to have worked and how much I pushed her away.

Very true and great perspective.

[mahhhty]

Sorry Labug. I missed them.

Did your wife have postpartum depression? If so was she treated? She's gone through a lot of trauma in the last 4 years. Does she see an IC?

She hasn't ever seen anyone as far as I know. I think she has been depressed, but it is always masked by our kids and by work. She is a very private and passive person, she's not one to talk about her feelings all that much. We originally wanted a very large family, and after my son was born that possibility was taken away. We have barely discussed that.

In regards to our marriage, I asked multiple times to speak to someone, or go to a marriage boot camp, or a weekend seminar. I threw out a ton of ideas. Her response was no over and over. At one point she said "Why do you need someone in the room to hear me telling you what I am telling you now." However, a couple weeks ago it was extremely ironic.... In our state it is required to go to a Child Impact Seminar when you are filling for Divorce, which is taught by a Therapist. She called me immediately after saying how useful it was. I just laughed in my head. The woman who didn't want to talk to anyone thought a therapist was useful.

[labug]

If the therapist is talking about what's best for the kids, that's very different from trying to figure out your own stuff. It's good that she got something from it and it may or may not open her up to the possibility.

If she is depressed you can't do anything about it but it does give some insight. It'difficult to get treatment, there's so much stigma. I put it off for years.

Not having more children is a big life changer. She's got a lot to work through.

[25yearsmlc]

As for the questions related to work. My promotion in 2013 definitely increased my workload at home and at work, while also increasing travel.

I didn't meant to sound dismissive. I am fully aware it had a large impact on our relationship, I am also very sure she felt like an only parent. She travels a lot as well, and we would literally pass each other in planes while the grandparents were watching the kids. It was no way to live.

I am trying to find a way to leave that job. My resume is out at multiple other companies, I am also trying to develop my own business. I want to be the father that is present, that isn't stressed with an unworkable situation. I always wanted to be the father that coaches his kids sports teams and I intend on being that person.

Mahhty, this^^ comment hit me hard, but mostly in a good way.

On one hand, it makes me feel wistful for what my own life plan was, and how a career change on h's part, (to go to medical school at the age of 30) more or less changed things dramatically.


I'm not bitter now, but I could have been and was on my way to that. Maybe it's good that I met bitter doctor's wives many years ago. Then, I swore I'd never sound like them and I hope I don't.

Yet now when I meet young people interested in medicine, I always ask them if they also want families...not that they cannot have them, but that they have to be realistic about what is coming. In fairness to my h and myself, neither of us had a realistic view of how hard medical school and the rest, would be. And we were brand new parents who did not know how time consuming having children is, (or should be).

Here's what I really wanted you to know--- Your comment mostly reminded me of a neighbor/father I know. Several years ago, he led the pack of us taking our kids trick or treating on Halloween, while our spouses did the hand out candy routine.

The neighbor, "Eric", mentioned his new job that was closer to home. Less of a commute meant more family time.

Another father w/us, Bet Eric that the career move was a "big pay increase" and Eric said 'No, it was a DECREASE in pay, but I have a ton more time now. I'm coaching s12's team and can go to the D's recitals..." At that moment in time I had so wished my h could have heard Eric say that. "What a great dad", I recall thinking.

But I happened to know Eric's w, a good friend of mine. She had a "come to Jesus!" talk with him some months before, claiming that he "didn't really even know their children." She challenged him to become a more present father and to his credit, he did.

Eric made himself a much bigger part of his kids' lives from then on.

It's a really good thing b/c only about 18 months after that Halloween, after really inserting himself more into his children's lives & establishing independent r's with each child, his life took a dramatic turn.

One night after we all played cards, my friend, his wife, said she had a "splitting headache, something's wrong", and she died quite suddenly of an aneurysm, at age 42, with 4 kids (age 7 to 14).

Eric & the kids were bereft. But they were close and knew their dad loved them, and he knew them each of them as individual people. Eric had real r's with each of his children so when his w died, they were Not hurt AND alone, but shared their grief together, and helped to heal together.

It may sound a little crazy but I always felt that his w had some sort of premonition, or at least wanted to make SURE he was very close to his kids in case she wasn't always around, and it turned out to have been a wonderful thing she helped create, b/c of that later tragedy.

Mahhty, you are right to want that kind of life style, but you must follow up and make it happen. It won't land in your lap. I don't mean to be morbid now, but it's well worth remembering that tomorrow, is promised to no one,
and life seems much shorter to me these days.

Besides, ALL of you will benefit from that "time for coaching" career move, regardless of any choice your w may make.

In fact, if you divorce, you having more time for your kids will matter even more, I think. I also think your inserting yourself into the kids lives more, makes a divorce a bit less likely, but that's not really the main point of this.

At this stage, if I were you, I'd stay the course and trust that with the tincture of time, your w may well come out of this. It won't be linear and neither will the progress, so bear that in mind as well. This is NOT a linear process.

So that I know I'm not glossing over anything and that you are not, what specifically are your 180s and some traits you'd like to work on, to become the best Mahhhty you can become? Working on those and not pursuing your wife for now, seems wisest to me.

But things evolve and change and adjustments can be made, in time. I hope that with your changes being made, when she looks your way and sees that they are real, lasting changes, she'll take a second look.

Frankly, it's very hard for me to imagine a mother who once loved her h, seeing him be a great dad, and more available to her than before (and whatever other changes you are making, sticking) then, NOT second guessing herself.

No woman is unmoved by seeing her children lovingly interacting with their dad. I know some women stay with their h's solely because of that. So do make it happen.

Here's to your new year being a year of growth, renewed spirituality & commitment, love and peace within.

[mahhhty]

25 - Thank you 25. I appreciate the time and effort you have put into my story. I plan on using this as a tool to continue my growth.

As far as 180s. The below is from my page 3.

180s:
- I am re-identifying with myself... bc I lost my identity as an individual
- I am more present... bc I was withdrawn
- I am trying to be happier... bc I wasn't
- I am trying to learn about relationships... bc I wasn't knowledgable
- I am trying to be more aware & appreciative... bc I was passive & assuming
- I am trying to be more laid back, compassionate & understanding... bc I was judgmental, high strung & stressed
- I am trying to be more attractive... bc I was loosing fashion sense from working at home
- I am working out consistently... bc I have always struggled with long term dedication
- I am traveling less and working on my startup more... bc I was traveling a lot and bc I want the independence of my own business (one of my dreams)

In short, my goal is to be happier, healthier, and to be a better Father, Son, Friend and hopefully Husband.

I have been focusing on:
- GAL
- Sandi2's Rules
- The Serenity Prayer
- "Be the change you wish to see in the world" - Gandhi
- "The finest steel has to go through the hottest fire." - Nixon
- With time comes clarity
- "Act as if by showing that you will be happy regardless of S's choice. You show strength by finding some new friends/activities aside from spouse. Actions speak louder than words." - Someone in the forum, much smarter than me

[Georgia Bulldogs]

In response to 25years' post (which I've place in a spoiler box for easy reference) please accept the following well intentioned response. I see 25 is a veteran here with over 10,000 posts so I hope and pray that is an indication of willingness to learn versus a feeling of superior understanding. We are all just novices here and MWD is the only true professional. That being said, there is just so many things I find wrong with the post that responding line by line is just way too confusing. I chose instead to respond with bullet points hoping that might work best and be the most helpful to the OP as well as 25years as we all attempt to come to an understanding and respect one another and our various opinions regarding marital strife and infidelity.

Georgia, please don't take my quoting your post as a slight. I do disagree with a lot of this but not all - and simply think this is the best way to show a difference in opinion.

(Plus, you're a Bulldog and I went to Auburn, so there's that... WAR EAGLE )

When they say "ILYBNILWY", it's typically, but not always, because they have a point of comparison. It's wayward wife speak for I love someone else now.

Georgia Bulldogs... I just quoted the top, but the entire post is definitely relevant. She has never been a person to lie or withhold things. However, as time went on, she withheld the affair acquisition and withheld the idea of her happiness from me. Our communication as a couple was awful (but great as parents), and our love languages were not being spoken.
KEY IN ON THIS^^^ b/c frankly, even if there is an OM, this LL matters a lot.

FTR, I'm NOT big on snooping unless you KNOW it'd be a definitive deal breaker for you. If you are POSITIVE of that, snoop away and then file if you find an OM.


(But IF it is not, then why bother?) You're not under the same roof now anyhow.


I am cognizant that there could be another man and I'll find out about it after the divorce. But after asking 4 times I can't ask again. I've been dealing with it by telling myself that it is something I can't control.

I don't think you should ask her again either. Waywards lie.


I don't think you should ask her again b/c it does not matter AND OR help YOU to ask. Asking so often is all about YOU , not about how "way wards lie".

And if there is no OM ---what would it take to convince you that there ist one?

Then if you keep on asking , I think a slight chance exists that you'll have pushed her into an idea she had not fully contemplated. It certainly makes you look needy/petty and jealous and NOT focused on what she'd like you to focus on. I wonder what SHE would say if she were here...


A lot more women leave marriages without OPs, than men. Statistically speaking it is a rare woman with children who simply leaves her h and marriage unless something essential, INSIDE the marriage, was missing. And she did not believe it would come back...

OR, less often but still not rare, is the woman who is missing something within HER...

You can probably state with some certainty, that she's NO 'serial cheater' so if there is an OM, now, how does that change your path of self improvement?

To ME, the biggest reason NOT to snoop is b/c if there is an OP, the growth and path that the lbs had been on, radically alters.

Now, suddenly - the LBS was a GREAT SPOUSE (what 'issues'?) and it's ONLY b/c of the OP that their WAS is now a "cheating lying scum bag" and

POOF! There goes the self improvement and here comes the self righteousness.



I'm also not suggesting you investigate and snoop on your wife indefinitely.

I'm merely proposing that you rule out the fact that it's likely she's having an affair with another person and THAT is what is ripping your family apart versus strictly just a MLC sort of thing.

I submit there are other options than these 2^^^...far more...it's just not this^^ simple.


Your wife seems in a hurry to rap this divorce up and that's probably because she wants to be able to tell people (including OM's friends and family) that they started dating around the time or after she ended up divorcing. Years done the road that history will again be revised to say they met and started dating as she (they) were already exiting or divorced from awful spouses.


Wow, massive mind reading of a woman none of us knows...and IMO, Not helping.

You mention waiting until after the divorce to find this out but were you aware the divorce process itself gives you the power and right to discovery??? IF you make an initial outside verification that there IS actually an OM (maybe hire a PI) then you can perhaps request a deposition or send some simple interrogatories asking for written or testimonial verification about the truth of your divorce.


TO WHAT END???? ADULTERY IS NOT RELEVANT TO CUSTODY IN ANY STATE-- (absent dangerous or sexual conduct in front of the children). You want to claim she's unfit as a parent??

You want to sue her for adultery as grounds for divorce? Okay in a FEW states that is an option...here are the D laws in NH, which I believe you reside in.

"The vast majority of divorces in New Hampshire are no-fault.

It is possible, however, to state a cause for divorce in New Hampshire for one or more of the following reasons:

impotence,
extreme cruelty,
adultery,

(If adultery is charged, the “co-respondent” must be named in the petition, i.e. the person with whom your spouse is committing adultery),

conviction of a crime punishable for more than one year of incarceration,

treatment by one spouse of the other that could seriously injure health,

abandonment by one spouse of the other for a period of at least two years,

when one party has been in an habitual drunken state for a period of over two years, or

when one party joins a religious sect or society that believes the relations between husband and wife are unlawful and who refuses to cohabit for a period of 6 months or longer.

How To Prove Adultery
There is most likely no such thing as a pleasant adultery case because names, dates, places, paramours, and the like have to be brought out in the open. If your spouse no longer cares about what you know and is open about the affair, you're lucky. You can then catch your spouse flagrante delicto, which means you have essentially caught your spouse in the act and may not have to worry about hiring detectives. However, you may still need a detective to prove your case in court. There is still a need for a corroborative witness, such as a mutual friend or neighbor, who has no stake in the matter except telling the court what he (she) witnessed.

You REALLY want to do this?^^^^ And if so, why? To assign blame? What purpose does that serve? She's not asking to sleep with you so NO argument about an STD fear can be made...

IF it's about money and a lot of it, then maybe I could see it...but I don't see it in this state. IT does NOT change custody and you already are splitting it evenly, right?



Phone records could be requested and depending no the state you could even depose the OM. You also may have the right to specifically demand that your children not be exposed to OM in the custody order.


Unless he is a danger to the kids (and here we are, assuming there IS an OM)...I've never seen ^^ this work. Ever.

This isn't a matter of punishing your wife. This is matter of documenting your life and protecting your children.


Sorry but I So disagree with this assessment^^ that I can barely not capitalize everything.
It does NOT protect your kids at all,

unless your w is 1) having an affair, AND 2) introducing them to the OM
AND 3) the OM is somehow very morally deficient....AND dangerous,

in which case your w has a lot of problems you are glossing over and have not mentioned at all here.

If you end up divorced and THEN try to discover or verify she's dating someone else she'll just say she started seeing him that week or the last month and you are a crazy possessive jealous EX husband with no right to invade or questions her choices and decisions. The OM could be some perverted child molester with a criminal history but you'll have missed your opportunity to document or discover any of that and protect your children.

Wow,^^^ that is some wildly baseless & negative projecting going on...yeah, I'm a L and I have seen this happen, maybe 2-3 times out of oh, 400 times...

Never in an educated career woman, however and never with someone who sounds otherwise pretty normal...are there ANY indications that your wife would over look such a glaringly deviant behavior in OM and expose them to your kids?

B/C you may as well accuse her of being an UNFIT total hosebag scoundrel while you're at it...

and any pretense of a decent relationship going forward, will evaporate. There ARE risks to this "Scorched earth" policy, which is what I see it as.


I KNOW you trust your wife and think looking her dead in the eye will give you some sense of veracity and that her prior trustworthiness and upstanding behavior means you should give her a lot of latitude. I also know that you think NOT trusting her will upset her but she is divorcing you and has PROBABLY been cheating on you for quite awhile and she is PROBABLY manipulating your lack of trust to make you feel bad hoping you'll stop investigating her while completely abusing you to your face and behind your back. Years from now...absent documenting the truth before the divorce, she'll rewrite your marital history to everyone around you including your children. Sure you may share YOUR side but your children won't know what to believe because there won't be any proof requiring anyone to tell the truth. The divorce will become mostly YOUR fault.


Total disagreement. I think the truth ALWAYS prevails, kids are smart, and the messenger of "doom" often gets blamed. IF your wife is now having an affair (and she may not have had one at all AND OR she may have begun a r with OM after the sep or after she told you she wanted one; many if not most WASs feel that once they've openly declared their intent to leave the m, they are free to date. They will NOT see it as an affair and chances are, many others will agree.

ANYHOW, the fact is that later on, the kids ask questions and are smarter than we credit them with being.

I've seen the following event or ones like it, happen a dozen times.

Eventually the kids know that "New Guy"and mom have "dated" 5 years and their "anniversary" is on the 16th, but hold on, wait a minute, "you and dad were still married then!...""""

And the truth comes out. The LBS who has not pointed the finger comes out smelling like a rose for not staining the image the kids have of EACH parent. And when you sully the spouse, the other parent, you DO harm the esteem of each child b/c each child feels that a part of THEM< is from each parent. So if the other parent is a cheating b--", then some part of them isn't so great....

I think this is all euphemisms for vindictiveness and under the guise of "truth seeking" & we are appointing our selves judge and jury (while absolving ourselves of anything "Serious" or "morally wrong"....unlike our spouses....and IMO we harm the kids far more than letting them figure it out themselves, would.
I'm NOT saying to lie for your spouse (IF IF IF there is an OM) but I am saying it's not your job to point the finger.

ALso, have you read the reasons why DB and the author, MWD OPPOSES snooping? B/C she does. It's NOT a tenet of DBing except in the circumstances mentioned.

Finally, you have issues to own and there's simply no way you can do that when your attention is on blaming her for having an affair you don't have any proof of anyhow. And btw, WHY did your w believe you had an affair on a trip you took?

Strategically for your divorce and for your own health and sanity, please independent verify the truth about your (and your daughter's) life. It may really suck to find out I was right, but it'll be worse if you find out a year from now and find yourself already the bad guy and if you complain or talk about it THEN you'll just be the mean old vindictive ex-husband and you'll play right into the trap of it all being YOUR fault.

Why do we care who is "at fault" so much? Where is this contest? Who is the "Winner"? I don't get it...I really don't. The kids are not an issue here. They are sharing them. Why must we assume she's filling the kids with bad news about her h? She may tell her family one thing to justify leaving but they know better already!

This is not a contest of who is at fault. IT's a marriage that may tragically end. And that is enough of a tragedy, isn't it? MUST we appoint a bad guy?

B/C clearly the whole snooping and PI ideas ALL have as the goal, making her the one at fault.

how is that morally superior in any way?


Finally.

Knowing the truth allows you to address the problems in your marriage honestly. Perhaps your marriage and family CAN be recovered someday, even after the divorce IF you know the truth. If you and your wife divorce and the secret affair remains a secret she may never consider recovery with you because she'll think you could never forgive her if you knew the truth.

But snooping, pointing the finger in blame and exposing the ALLEGED A, will INCREASE her belief in his forgiveness?????? Uh, no, I don't think this makes sense. Sorry




Plus, she'll want to go to her grave holding the secret and realize reconciliation with you built upon a lie would be pointless. Thus, discovering the truth also increases your odds of reconciliation.

Well, I'll just say this one last time and move on.

I totally disagree with this^^. Moreover, I think engaging in such baseless and negative projections is a destructive element in your road to self growth and improvement, and in your mental and emotional health. Outside of limited legal reasons, I see virtually nothing positive in it.

If I'm wrong. So be it. It's not a crime to hire a private investigator nor is it unhealthy to attempt to verify the truth about your life and try to narrow down the problems in your relationship with your wife. People with nothing to hide don't sweat being investigated or questioned.


I do. I don't consent to warrantless searches either, and NOT b/c I "have something to hide" - but b/c I deeply cherish my liberty and privacy, and resent needless intrusions into either.

1. We both agree, for different reasons that verbally asking his wife about her cheating again isn't wise.

2. Sure some women leave men without cheating and my original post allowed for the fact I could be mistaken by telling him to investigate the truth about his life; however, Mahhhty's wife's behavior to date, including her obviously wayward behavior at the family's Christmas party this past week is entirely consistent with the likelihood that his wife is currently in an extra-marital relationship. It's undeniably likely. I'd surmise about a 80% likelihood. Actually her inviting him to the party and her families reaction tells me she still has feelings for him and that he's a good guy certainly not an abusive husband of a typical walk away wife. His wife cornering him and crying with him is an indication that she still needs him and her isolating herself and leaving early is an indication that the reality of the situation is overwhelming and she'd rather escape back into affair fantasy land rather than feeling the shame of her lies and pretending in front of her family. In my experience, a walk away wife generally seeks the support of family whereas waywards tend to isolate and avoid anyone, including family, who do not (or wouldn't if they knew) support their behavior.

3. 25years said that if he discovers the truth then "POOF! There goes the self improvement and here comes the self righteousness.". This is not always the case. He is here and we can help him process both. I actually see this as an indication that you don't believe Mahhhty can handle the truth about his life. Besides, some people can't forgive adultery and choose to divorce and those individuals can be as "self-righteous" as they want to be (albeit, not forever). It's a completely normal response to such devastating news; but, it doesn't mean that they can also work on self-improvement too as they accept their new reality. They were cheated upon and lied to. As Michelle Davis says: "Affairs suck. They suck the life out of marriages".

Michelle also says this about infidelity:

As a marriage therapist for two decades, I've heard countless clients confess that the discovery of an affair was the lowest, darkest moment of their entire lives. And because affairs shatter trust, many seriously contemplate ending their marriages in divorce after infidelity occurs.

However, it's important to know that, no matter how bleak things might seem, it's possible to revitalize a marriage wounded by infidelity. It's not easy- there are no quick-fix, one-size-fits-all solutions to save a marriage from divorce- but years of experience has taught me that there are definite patterns to what people in loving relationships do to bring their marriages back from the brink of disaster.

In other words, IF Mahhty's wife is, in fact, an infidel, his marriage is on the "brink of disaster". It is in worse shape than a not so simple walk away wife situation. It will be the "lowest, darkest moment of [mahhhty's] entire life". Whether Mahhty snoops or investigates the truth an discovers this or not....if it happened....IT HAPPENED. So rather than simply denying it might be the case but don't check because that will hurt you and won't help you focus on fixing yourself is simply denying reality.

In my opinion, Mahhhty needs to rule out the likely fact that his wife is cheating on him FIRST such that he can assess his wants and desires regarding this marriage honestly, and if he chooses to attempt to recover, he can research and consult professionals and peers like us to figure out what the "definite patterns to what people in loving relationships did to bring their marriages back from the brink of disaster" due to infidelity versus mere separation.

4. Although adultery doesn't have a lot of relevance in most states, it still has some in many. Especially if the Judge happens to be a former betrayed spouse or particularly religious. Ironically, if you are right about the OP being in New Hampshire then adultery actually has significant statutory relevance (and may be a large reason his wife is hurrying the divorce along while keeping the affair very quiet). In NH, adultery is relevant with regards to property division, alimony AND even custody of the children. Note also, NH may require marital counseling as well and if a Judge is presented evidence of adultery AND a betrayed spouse (like Mahhty) willing to forgive, such judge is hopefully more likely to order marriage counseling in such cases even over the adamant objection of the wayward spouse.

NEW HAMPSHIRE DIVORCE LAW SUMMARY

LEGAL GROUNDS FOR DIVORCE:  A divorce from the bonds of matrimony may be granted on the following grounds:
No Fault - Irreconcilable differences which have caused the irremediable breakdown of the marriage.
Fault - A divorce from the bonds of matrimony shall be decreed in favor of the innocent party for any of the following causes:
1. Impotency of either party. 
2. Adultery of either party. 
3. Extreme cruelty of either party to the other.
4. Conviction of either party, in any state or federal district, of a crime punishable with imprisonment for more than one year and actual imprisonment under such conviction. 
5. When either party has so treated the other as seriously to injure health or endanger reason. 
6. When either party has been absent 2 years together, and has not been heard of. 
7. When either party is an habitual drunkard, and has been such for 2 years together. 
8. When either party has joined any religious sect or society which professes to believe the relation of husband and wife unlawful, and has refused to cohabit with the other for 6 months together.
9. When either party, without sufficient cause, and without the consent of the other, has abandoned and refused, for 2 years together, to cohabit with the other.  [Based on New Hampshire Statutes - Chapters:  458:7 and 458:7-a]

MEDIATION OR COUNSELING REQUIREMENTS:  In the event of any action the court shall, no later than the respondent's filing of an appearance, require the parties to attend a 4-hour information session. This session shall be a seminar on how to help the children deal with the issues surrounding divorce, separation, and the allocation of parental rights and responsibilities. 
In all cases involving disputed parental rights and responsibilities or grandparents' visitation rights, including requests for modification of prior orders, the court may order the parties to participate in mediation.  
Whenever, before or during a hearing but before a final decree, the court shall determine that there is a likelihood for rehabilitation of the marriage relationship, the court shall refer the parties to an appropriate counseling agency within its jurisdiction, which referral may be made according to RSA 167-B or as the parties request, with the approval of the court. If the court determines that there is a reasonable possibility of reconciliation, the court shall continue the proceedings and require that both parties submit to marriage counseling.  [Based on New Hampshire Statutes - Chapters:  458-D:2 , 458:7-b, and 461-A:7]

PROPERTY DISTRIBUTION:  New Hampshire is an equitable distribution state, meaning that the court tries to distribute property equitably between the parties.  The court shall presume that an equal division is an equitable distribution of property, unless the court decides that an equal division would not be appropriate or equitable after considering one or more of the following factors:  (a) The duration of the marriage. (b) The age, health, social or economic status, occupation, vocational skills, employability, separate property, amount and sources of income, needs and liabilities of each party. (c) The opportunity of each party for future acquisition of capital assets and income. (d) The ability of the custodial parent, if any, to engage in gainful employment without substantially interfering with the interests of any minor children in the custody of said party. (e) The need of the custodial parent, if any, to occupy or own the marital residence and to use or own its household effects. (f) The actions of either party during the marriage which contributed to the growth or diminution in value of property owned by either or both of the parties. (g) Significant disparity between the parties in relation to contributions to the marriage, including contributions to the care and education of the children and the care and management of the home. (h) Any direct or indirect contribution made by one party to help educate or develop the career or employability of the other party and any interruption of either party's educational or personal career opportunities for the benefit of the other's career or for the benefit of the parties' marriage or children. (i) The expectation of pension or retirement rights acquired prior to or during the marriage. (j) The tax consequences for each party. (k) The value of property that is allocated by a valid prenuptial contract made in good faith by the parties. (l) The fault of either party as specified in RSA 458:7 if said fault caused the breakdown of the marriage and: (1) Caused substantial physical or mental pain and suffering; or (2) Resulted in substantial economic loss to the marital estate or the injured party.(m) The value of any property acquired prior to the marriage and property acquired in exchange for property acquired prior to the marriage. (n) The value of any property acquired by gift, devise, or descent. (o) Any other factor that the court deems relevant.  [Based on New Hampshire Statutes - Chapter:  458:16-a]

ALIMONY/MAINTENANCE/SPOUSAL SUPPORT:   Upon motion of either party for alimony payments, the court shall make orders for the payment of alimony to the party in need of alimony, either temporary or permanent, for a definite or indefinite period of time, if the motion for alimony payments is made within 5 years of the decree of nullity or divorce and the court finds that:
The party in need lacks sufficient income, property, or both, including property apportioned in accordance with RSA 458:16-a, to provide for such party's reasonable needs, taking into account the style of living to which the parties have become accustomed during the marriage;  
The party from whom alimony is sought is able to meet reasonable needs while meeting those of the party seeking alimony, taking into account the style of living to which the parties have become accustomed during the marriage; and 
The party in need is unable to be self-supporting through appropriate employment at a standard of living that meets reasonable needs or is allocated parental rights and responsibilities under RSA 461-A for a child of the parties whose condition or circumstances make it appropriate that the parent not seek employment outside the home.
In determining the amount of alimony, the court shall consider the length of the marriage; the age, health, social or economic status, occupation, amount and sources of income, the property awarded in the divorce settlement, vocational skills, employability, estate, liabilities, and needs of each of the parties; the opportunity of each for future acquisition of capital assets and income; the fault of either party; and the federal tax consequences of the order.   [Based on New Hampshire Statutes - Chapter:  458:19]
SPOUSE'S NAME:  In any proceeding under this chapter, except an action for legal separation, the court may, when a decree of divorce or nullity is made, restore a former name of the spouse, regardless of whether a request therefore had been included in the petition.  [Based on New Hampshire Statutes - Chapter:  458:24]

CHILD CUSTODY:  In determining parental rights and responsibilities under this section, including residential responsibility, the court shall not apply a preference for one parent over the other because of the sex of the child, the sex of a parent, or the financial resources of a parent.  In determining parental rights and responsibilities, the court shall be guided by the best interests of the child, and shall consider the following factors:
a. The relationship of the child with each parent and the ability of each parent to provide the child with nurture, love, affection, and guidance. 
b. The ability of each parent to assure that the child receives adequate food, clothing, shelter, medical care, and a safe environment. 
c. The child's developmental needs and the ability of each parent to meet them, both in the present and in the future. 
d. The quality of the child's adjustment to the child's school and community and the potential effect of any change. 
e. The ability and disposition of each parent to foster a positive relationship and frequent and continuing physical, written, and telephonic contact with the other parent, except where contact will result in harm to the child or to a parent. 
f. The support of each parent for the child's contact with the other parent as shown by allowing and promoting such contact. 
g. The support of each parent for the child's relationship with the other parent. 
h. The relationship of the child with any other person who may significantly affect the child. 
i. The ability of the parents to communicate, cooperate with each other, and make joint decisions concerning the children. 
j. Any evidence of abuse, as defined in RSA 173-B:1, I or RSA 169-C:3, II, and the impact of the abuse on the child and on the relationship between the child and the abusing parent. 
k. If a parent is incarcerated, the reason for and the length of the incarceration, and any unique issues that arise as a result of incarceration. 
l. Any other additional factors the court deems relevant.
If the court finds by clear and convincing evidence that a minor child is of sufficient maturity to make a sound judgment, the court may give substantial weight to the preference of the mature minor child as to the determination of parental rights and responsibilities. Under these circumstances, the court shall also give due consideration to other factors which may have affected the minor child's preference, including whether the minor child's preference was based on undesirable or improper influences.  [Based on New Hampshire Statutes - Chapters:  461-A:6]

Link to New Hampshire Divorce Law Summary Article

Now, of course, if Mahhty still wants to save his marriage, MWD doesn't advocate being extremely litigious as the divorce system is designed to get you divorced and trying to aggressively fight a divorce case actually results in destroying the possibility of recovery. That being said, again, Mattthy may not desire to save his marriage should he discover his wife is having an affair. Such discovery could completely destroy him and any remaining desire he may have to reconcile with his wife and BEFORE he simply waives all his rights to counter file for divorce on the grounds of adultery, fight for a better property division, fight to reduce alimony and fight to protect his children and get more custody ....he should be aware of what legal rights he may be foregoing by not simply eliminating adultery as a large reason why she's divorcing him.

Mahhty should be aware that I've met and helped MANY bitter divorced men who regret going the easy route during the divorce process HOPING against hope that by being nice, trusting and friendly during the divorce process they will somehow get a better shot at saving their marriage only to discover after the paperwork is done that their ex-wife is getting engaged to their guy formerly known as "he's just a good friend" from work, or the gym, or the church choir, etc. Because of this, I simply think that KNOWING the truth about your situation and what has probably already occurred is a healthier way to go about getting divorced AND/OR possibly recovering your marriage than denial (and working on extraneous problems that probably don't even exist...more on that later).

5. I agree an adultery case might be difficult to prove and not result in a recovery of his marriage; however, if he is to forego such right [to counter-file on the grounds of adultery and all that doing so change his potential legal settlement] he should do so in awareness of all the facts of his situation.

6. Investigating the truth doesn't change the truth. If Mahhty's wife has been cheating on him, as I suspect, it's already happened and it's already happening. Snooping out this fact won't change it. It would be a fact at that point and a fact mahhty could process and react as he, himself, chooses. Doing so sure prevents a lot of resentment later on should he then discover he was played the fool by a manipulative lying wayward.

7. Despite the fact that you have never seen it work, not exposing the children to unrelated overnight guests of the opposite sex is standard language, IF REQUESTED, in many temporary and even many permanent custody orders. I'm guessing you don't practice divorce law because this is a pretty basic demand in many states (I don't know if NH is one of those states but it may come down to the judge assigned the case anyway). Whether Mahhty discovers an affair or not, he probably has a right to request such provision in their divorce decree as well. It's in the best interests of the children not to expose them to immoral extra-marital relationships as well as unmarried overnight guests after the divorce. This isn't about punishing his wife or any wayward...it's about protecting children.

8. 25years stated: "It does NOT protect your kids at all, unless your w is 1) having an affair, AND 2) introducing them to the OM
AND 3) the OM is somehow very morally deficient....AND dangerous". This is a major philosophical difference of opinion between 25 years and myself. I believe that IF your wife is having an affair, then she AND the OM are, by definition, morally deficient AND dangerous to your children. Unfortunately, it's impractical and improbably in today's culture and most legal systems that you can protect your children from your potentially wayward wife; however, any protection you can provide them from OM, by law, would be prudent to, at least, pursue OR NOT (at least you got to choose knowing the facts). Good men do not pursue and have relationships with married women with small children, but abusers and pedophiles do (I'm not saying it's likely OM is a pedophile but pedophiles DO exist and they would seek out vulnerable married women with children to suit their sick desires. Even 25years acknowledges that this happens when she said "I'm a L and I have seen this happen, maybe 2-3 times out of oh, 400 times...". That's a 1% chance and that's just the cases that 25years knows about. Most child abuse comes out MANY YEARS later and even then wouldn't be brought to the old divorce lawyers attention. But, if i could protect my children from even a 1% chance of being abused, I'd do it regardless of the effects on my potential divorce/recovery outcome. This children come first and I wouldn't allow anyone to presume my wife is a good person and a good judge of affair partner character so OM is MOST LIKELY a good guy. I'd want to make that assessment myself.

9. 25years said. The truth will come out and that kids are smart and figure it out on their own. She said: "I'm NOT saying to lie for your spouse (IF IF IF there is an OM) but I am saying it's not your job to point the finger." If it's not a parent's job to inform their children of the truth about their lives than who's job is it????? I think 25 years presumes a vindictive nature to any such communications with the children whereas I presume and would encourage a loving informative one. One doesn't have to blame to tell someone the truth. Children ARE smarter than we think and can figure this stuff out over time but they need to know initially that it's not their fault. Kids are narcissists and think everything good or bad involves or results from them. Also, kids have instincts which tell them that is' wrong for Mahhty's mom to move out and it would be wrong for her to have a boyfriend while married to their dad so with the facts...they themselves can decide whether or not to "blame" anyone. I'm also not advocating exposure here, pre-divorce while mahhty is trying to save his marriage but someday after any divorce merely discussing this stuff with his children in an age appropriate may be beneficial BEFORE his likely wayward wife puts a spin on the whole thing. Finally, it will FOREVER be impossible for Mahhty to explain the divorce if he doesn't really fully understand the reasons behind it himself (i.e. - IF she's having an affair).

10. 25years asked me "have you read the reasons why DB and the author, MWD OPPOSES snooping? B/C she does. It's NOT a tenet of DBing except in the circumstances mentioned". I have read most all of MWD's writings. I've also seen her speak in person. MWD does NOT oppose snooping to discover an affair. In fact, she finds it necessary in order for the betrayed spouse to eventually confront the wayward spouse (and~or the other person) and, to analyze what needs the OM is meeting as a means of figuring out what the betrayed spouse wasn't doing adequately in the marriage and fixing THAT. Here's a quote from Michelle regarding online infidelity (which may be the case here)

4. If you are convinced that nothing in your marriage will change unless and until your spouse is confronted with hard evidence about his/her behaviour, then you might consider purchasing a software product that takes "snapshots" of online activity for review later."

All of MWD advice against snooping presupposes the betrayed spouse actually KNOWS they are a betrayed spouse. She finds it unhealthy and unproductive for betrayed spouses to go on a campaign of surveillance. Though I personally disagree to some extent this isn't a forum for my personal opinion. We are to share MWD's opinions and discuss our interpretations of those stated opinions. My advice that was strictly limited to investigating the truth about his life and trying to merely rule out the likely circumstance that his wife is ACTIVELY cheating on him as we debate this issue is entirely consistent with MWD's advice and opinions. (but I'd love to see her chime in and tell me I'm mistaken. being wrong doesn't bother me in the least).

I've also heard MWD, in person, advocate open monitoring of spouses during the piecing process. Meaning sharing of passwords, leaving phones open and available, etc.,.......presumably providing for consensual "snooping" in order to rebuild trust after infidelity, but that's not being discussed herein.

11. 25years said: "Finally, you have issues to own and there's simply no way you can do that when your attention is on blaming her for having an affair you don't have any proof of anyhow." I submit his attention on the possibility she is having an affair is already persistent. As a former betrayed husband myself, I can attest to the fact that he likely considers this possibility A LOT. I actually think ruling it out would actually free up MORE brain power to address his situation than currently exists as he constantly wonders what she is doing and who she might be with. Also, presuming he has many issues to address is mind reading. He sounds like a pretty nice hard working loving husband who merely got caught up with work and his career and neglected his wife. IF she is cheating on him, her recently revealed accusation that he cheated on her years ago is likely a wayward manipulative smoke screen trying to deflect attention from HER wayward behavior. Now...if it's true and he did cheat (and only he knows the truth)....THAT would need to be seriously considered and worked upon; but if he didn't, then why spend another moment sweating it. If they get to recovery and the accusation still holds...THEN it can be addressed as a real concern of his wife; but, as of now, we have no idea if his wife actually believes he cheated or if she just threw that out there to get the spotlight off her.

12. 25years said: "clearly the whole snooping and PI ideas ALL have as the goal, making her the one at fault". Snooping doesn't make his wife at fault committing adultery does. I never assigned blame in my posts anyway, I merely suggested he discover what I see is the likely truth about the demise of his marriage. That truth INCLUDES his behavior but he already is aware of the things he did/does wrong. I also never said he should expose anything to anyone pre divorce as long as he attempts to reconcile. Pursuant to WMD, he should confront his wife with the truth. That is not "scorching the earth".

13. 25years disagreed with my statement: "Plus, she'll want to go to her grave holding the secret and realize reconciliation with you built upon a lie would be pointless. Thus, discovering the truth also increases your odds of reconciliation.". She thought it was unhealthy, speculative and projection. I stand by it. The truth shall set you free. If your wife is cheating, you catch her and confront her AND stand there willing to forgive her and reconcile with her THEN you INCREASE SUBSTANTIALLY your chances of actually recovering your marriage versus letting her walk all over you in court and protecting her secret (by not figuring it out). She will presume you would never forgive her, you didn't and don't really care (or you would have caught her) and/or that there is too much risk you will find out and end up shaming her or worse. In fact, even if she wanted to reconcile because she realized what she'd thrown away...she might not approach you out of fear of hurting you when you discover what she's done. The lie will saddle her from even considering it. The lie could paralyze her from doing anything. She may think you are better off without her (wayward's often battle extreme depression and self-worth issues). Knowing you know and are willing to forgive her is a BIG DEAL....IT PROVES YOU LOVE HER more than any other words can convey.

14. 25years said: "I don't consent to warrantless searches either, and NOT b/c I "have something to hide" - but b/c I deeply cherish my liberty and privacy, and resent needless intrusions into either.". I've not advocated anything illegal such as warrantless searches. This isn't a police action. It is entirely legal for Mahhhty to hire a Private Investigator to verify whether or not his wife is having an affair. It may also be legal for him in his state to use voice activated recording devices and/or GPS devices to independently verify his wife's behavior. His wife doesn't even have to be made aware of this if he chooses not to confront or do anything much about it. If she's cheating she already knows what she is doing. As far as accountability in marriage, your insistence on privacy in marriage is a personal one and not supported by MWD's writings and advice for reconciling couples. Heck, I'm a betrayed husband and my lovely wife is free to snoop on me at any time. I encourage it. She and I hold each other accountable. Being a human is difficult. We are all vulnerable to affairs and keeping secrets is often the first step. Plus, help walking a decent moral path all the time is highly appreciated by me. I/we value my marriage and family over my/our privacy. Your mileage may vary.

15. I hope this post makes it in in it's entirety. I'm really trying to understand the writings and teachings of WMD and relate them to my ministry helping struggling couples in our church. If I make a mistake please correct me and/or discuss it with me. I've tried to research what MWD would say or think but concede my interpretations may not be correct. For example, my interpretation of the 180 plan, as written by MWD in her book, appears to contradict that opinions of the 180 here on the forum. Mahhty is a good example. It is understood that Mahhty's wife likely felt neglected and taken for granted while Mahhty was working like a dog and traveling way too much for work. She felt put upon and neglected. Thus, a proper 180 would not have him detaching and completely GAL'ing (to the point of ignoring her but GAL'ing some is certainly healthy), rather he would do a 180 from what drove her away from him initially and had communicated he didn't care by actually engaging with her to the greatest extent possible, trying to spend as much time with her as she would allow, inviting her over and chasing her to a point (not over doing it to the point of being needy or desperate). In short, you don't neglect a neglected wife...you do the opposite of that (180) to the extent you can. That's my interpretation.

16. Go Dawgs....Sic 'em!!!

[Georgia Bulldogs]

Georgia BD, I see you have few posts but none are about you and your experience.

Have you read DB? This is a sharing and caring community here. I think it's unfair for people to drop in out of the sky and start giving advice when we know nothing about them.

Granted you could make up a story and we might be none the wiser, but those people usually get bored and move on.

I don't think sharing my story on Mahhty's thread would be appropriate but then would starting a thread called "me" be appropriate? I am not here for help but to help others. I'm a former betrayed husband in a recovered marriage. I very much love my wife and we've been reconciled for many years. She and I both volunteer our time with the marriage ministry at our large church. I consider helping out on forums a part of my personal ministry as well. We have read and discussed just about every major book on the subject out there. We also discuss many of my posts before I submit them.

Hope that's enough for now. Someday when I'm off restriction maybe I'll have PM access and you can ask me more questions if you desire.

I also wanted to say that my advice applies equally to both genders. I tend to be attracted to the more relatable male stories on this forum but my directness about wayward wives is equally as direct when discussing wayward husbands. I actually hold wayward husband's to an even higher standard as the leaders of their families and marriages but that's another story and another day. The point is, I don't harbor any bitterness or resentment towards my long ago former wayward wife that is somehow being injected into my posts as hatred or meanness towards any wayward person or situation on this forum. I/we believe all way wards (male or female) are selfish self entitled monsters that need to be saved from their folly, not vindictively beaten into submission. As MWD suggests, I loved my wife back to our marriage years ago. Most forums believe that is impossible, but I lived it. I was personally more aggressive than seems to be suggested on these forums. I lovingly fought for my marriage and family versus just "standing" but I still very much appreciate MWD for having and conveying hope for even the most egregious marital situations. I, too, thought my marriage was over. It was not. There is always hope.

[mahhhty]

Had a transition today (picked up the kids are her apartment). I did fairly well. Both of our kids came down with the flu and she has had them the last couple days dealing with that. I offered help multiple times but wasn't taken up on it. Today when I picked them up, she to offered help to me. Something to the effect "If you need anything let me know." I appreciated it although I didn't take her up on it either.

Looking forward with the holiday's behind us, it is going to be easy to detach. All of our transitions will be at Daycare (run by her Mom). So presumably, I will barely see her. This also makes me somewhat sad, as I thought we were making some progress. Most likely she will begin with the questions about divorce related tasks soon or wait until after her birthday which is the middle of this month.

I suspect it is time to get things moving again towards the divorce, but I am letting her make the first move. As for things around the house, she has a lot of stuff still here, I need to make a point of getting it out.

[mahhhty]

Another interesting thing happened over the weekend. I hung out with a coworker/friend from college. I worked and went to school with her and her ex-husband. I was supposed to paddle with both of them and some other friends, however, he bailed and she came.

I had some alone time with her in the car and she talked about her divorce with me. Her and the ex had some real big problems, substance abuse, cheating, etc. However, even with that they are now hanging out and she talks about him like she wants to be with him. I thought it was very odd, but re-assuring that no one can foresee the future.

[lost18]

Sounds like you're doing well. As you know I am no expert but maybe be more specific with your 180's. For example, what are you doing to be more attractive or happier.

Try not to mind read too much (I should really take my own advice! :)) about her questions and moving toward D. My IC tells me only to deal with what is coming at me. So until she makes that move try not to stress about it.

[mahhhty]

Cadet posted this on another feed. I want to remember it and therefore am reposting here.

"People come here [to DB] to fix their marriage, they leave after they have fixed themselves."

Thanks Cadet!

[mahhhty]

Need some help... As I suspected she reached out first thing this AM via email to discuss Child Support offers and next steps. And I quote...

"Good morning. How were the kids last night? I think I had a touch of the bug, but powered through...

I figured you probably didn't want to discuss this over the holidays, but now they are over, I wanted to follow-up so that we can wrap it up."

I think it is interesting that she said "I figured you probably didn't want to discuss this over the holidays..."

I am guessing that I need to meet this head on to finish it up.

[lost18]

Guess you're a better mind-reader than me! Sorry to hear that, sorry that I don't have any advice for you.

[mahhhty]

Haha I guess so Lost. Maybe I'm just lucky.

On top of the child support email, that I haven't answered yet.... We were exchanging texts tonight for an alteration to our schedule (which was fine), but in addition to that she told me that my niece (her sister's daughter) will have her birthday party on the 17th and I'll be invited. This is like Christmas all over. She says one thing but then invites me "for the kids."

I'm not sure what I should do. Go to another "in-law" function or play a true distancer role? I haven't asked her any questions about the confusing Christmas behavior, but I don't really want to be somewhere I am not wanted. Her family wants me there but does she?

I guess I am leaning towards making a short upbeat happy uncle appearance. Just to reinforce my relationship with my nieces.

[mahhhty]

Got the flu late last night and received the followup emails, about how I am delaying. On the second round of email I answered with a "I" statement... "I’m sorry you see it as delaying, I was trying to have the best holiday possible."

I wish I could say or do something to promote a moment of thought where she might second guess it all. But I know that is wishful thinking.

I guess its time to roll up my sleeves and finish what she started.

I miss her.

[Karma12]

Hi there,

I'm on the boards because my hubby is going through a midlife crisis and we are currently separated. This though was my second marriage. I was married the first time when I was only 19 and stayed married until I turned 30. During that time we had four children. It was my choice to split so I guess at that time I was the WAS. The way the MC explained it to my hubby was think of your favorite team being in the playoffs and they lost. Now you are no longer that interested in the playoffs. That's where your wife is. I was emotionally shut down and it takes along time for a woman to get there. What has been said in other posts about the WAS not believing the changes right away is totally true. My spouse at the time suddenly tried doing all the things inhale been complaining about. Including sending me flowers ect. It was all a little too late and the more he pushed the further I closed off. Then he'd get mad and remind me through his behavior why I wanted to leave. Now if he had backed off, given me space, had PMA and GAL do I think we would have worked out? I don't know. What I do know though is I would have taken a second look and if his changes stayed long term who knows. Just a little insight for you. &#128521;

[mahhhty]

I've read this about many times. Thank you Karma. BTW I love this... Accept what is...let go of what was and have faith in what will be.

[lost18]

I just set that quote as the background for my desktop. Perfect!

[mahhhty]

Yesterday I was a different person than I was tonight...Child support conversation lingers on. I am trying to communicate effectively. I think she believes I am stalling. I am not trying to stall but to be careful, think clearly and not emotionally. She only communicates to me on her terms or when she needs something. I have a closet full of her clothes 2 months after she has moved out, which are not a priority for her.

Like CS wasn't enough, tonight, I put myself through a painful ordeal. I for the first time looked at old pictures and read some old things she wrote. It just made me think how the mighty have fallen. Things were amazing between us at one time, we lost our way, but I still refuse to believe that with love, an open heart and an open mind we couldn't turn it around. And there lies the conundrum... She does not have love or an open heart or an open mind. She does not need my approval or agreement. I need to accept that she believes she's doing the right thing for herself and perhaps maybe the kids. I need to accept it, but it is hard to accept something you don't believe.

I am distancing myself, detaching myself and am upbeat in face to face actions or discussions on the phone with kids. We do not talk on the phone one on one. It is these email interactions that drag me back.

[seaspin]

I still refuse to believe that with love, an open heart and an open mind we couldn't turn it around.

I'm with you there. I wish my WAS would believe it too.

it is hard to accept something you don't believe.

I agree. I have that same problem.

[mahhhty]

The CS conversation continued last night via email. She was upset thinking I was stalling. I scheduled some time to talk to her this AM. And we had a good but difficult conversation. I am making deposits into her bank. And was able to defuse the conversation twice. I was even able to work in a few jokes. We talked for 40 minutes this AM.

Then tonight she called me and the conversation continued. Some real progress was being made as far as the CS conversation, and other topics were brought up randomly.

[mahhhty]

I believe the CS conversation is almost over. Her birthday is tomorrow. My S picked her out a movie, my D picked her out a book, and I got her a hard drive with videos and photos on it (b/c she didn't take any of those). I received a tin of assorted popcorn in Dec on my birthday. So hopefully, she sees this as a deposit into the L Bank.

Read a great article... Feelings and Commitments Don't Mix by creative love.com. Good stuff.

Had a really good session yesterday with the IC. It was enlightening. He said I am in a category of less than 1% of the guys he sees, b/c of my outlook and disposition towards her. It was good to see some kind of measurement of my progress with him. He encouraged me to continue to focus on the process and not the outcome, to continue to not get angry, defensive or reactive with her. She is hurt just like me, be compassionate with her and with myself.

I hurt my back 4 days ago on deadlifts and today was the first time lifting again. It felt good. Lifting has really helped my mind and body. It definitely helps me sleep better too.

Now that the end is closing in. I am thinking of giving her a letter that I have written. I started it in November and have modified it probably 100 times. It talks a little about a lot of things, but is fairly neutral. Or at least I think it's neutral. Any thoughts?

[Karma12]

Why don't you share it with your IC and get their opinion on the letter.
Timing is the key with the WAS. They can see a letter as pressure.

Working out has always been a saving grace for me too. Keeps me sane and its a great GAL activity.

Mystery is key at this time. Projecting a PMA, looking good, always busy doing new things ect

[Sotto]

Hi M - funny, my IC said something similar to me. How it is unusual to work with someone who is doing so much work for themselves and moving forward such a way in such difficult circumstances. It's nice feedback to get....

[lost18]

You seem to be doing very well. Always good when our IC's see our progress.

"He encouraged me to continue to focus on the process and not the outcome"

I love this, one of the podcasts I've been listening to from another marriage saving site said that exact thing as well.

As far as the letter goes I think the answer would be no generally. Maybe a vet could chime in here, they may suggest you post the letter in order to offer better guidance. Is there a reason you want to give her the letter?

[mahhhty]

Thanks for the input all it's appreciated!

Lost - Great question. Why do I want to give it to her? I'm not sure. Closure. The idea of closure. An attempt at taking her guard down, thinking there is closure. In the beginning when we started going down this path, I was a host of emotions, reactive behavior, defensive, etc. The letter is much more neutral, slightly compassionate, and comes from my heart. At least I think it is.

[lost18]

Just checking in on you. Have you given any more thought to the letter?

[mahhhty]

Thanks Lost. There is something great about this forum.

I think I will continue to wait on the letter. I had some more ideas last night about what to write. So I will revise it and wait until some, if not all, of the divorce tasks are finished. That way it can't be considered a bargaining chip, or coming from anywhere but from the heart.

Yesterday was my niece's (her sister's youngest daughter) birthday party, where they also were planning on celebrating my wife's birthday. I choose not to go b/c of what happened last time and the fact I didn't want to impact their day.

She picked up the kids from here (our house, I am staying and she moved out). It dawned on me while she was here... that she doesn't look me in the eye, she doesn't get into conversations about anything but the kids, she doesn't bring up conversations, she is very reactive.

I understand it is tough and I have very little understanding of how she is dealing with this or what she is going through or focusing on. Heard a great quote this AM. "Success is when hard work is met by opportunity." I believe I am working hard. So now I am trying to think about what an opportunity would look like, and "how can she" look past what we are doing to remember/feel what our love looked like or opening up to see me in a different light.

All this while realizing the divorce is inevitable. Unfortunately.

[mahhhty]

BTW... What a great thread.

Raliced's thread about the forum

[mahhhty]

Had a pickup this afternoon at her apartment. The kids are such a great distraction, they get sooo excited to see me and I play right into it. Tickling them, hugging them, joking with them. Love those munchkins with every piece of me.

She thanked me for her birthday gifts, and even stated how one of the gifts was a good idea (it was an external hard drive with all of our pictures and movies on there from 2005 through last December). Hopefully she looks at some of the early ones.

BTW... She looked really good today.

[mahhhty]

Divorce signing is going to be this Friday. Closing on the house will be Saturday. I am also leaving to hike Mt Washington in the White Mountains Saturday right after closing.

To say this week isn't turning out to be a big one is a massive understatement.

We have a phone call this AM to go over outstanding actions. She was sighing and making noises at some of my responses (anytime I disagreed with her). I stopped, composed myself and said "Why are you angry with me?" Her reply was that she has a lot of animosity built up. I tried to open the door for her to tell me why. She didn't. And I replied "You are not very talkative today." This was an obvious error and does nothing to help me, I see that.

[mahhhty]

As this is a big week, I am deciding to share my D day letter. I plan on giving this letter to her sometime after signing. Probably not that day, but soon there after. My reason for this is an attempt to put my feelings out there, take real responsibility for my role, and an attempt to be heard. I felt like I was unheard most of the time. I've literally spent months on this and changed it over 200 times. But, I am not too proud to not change it. I am open to any and all comments.

STBX,
A person who loves their spouse does not do anything unloving or unkind in manner, word or action. Love is what love does. I now believe I was unfaithful and mentally divorced from you. I was oblivious to your pain and its depth, trivialized your perspective, and was consumed with distractions, was withdrawn and overly critical, and that’s just for starters. I changed into an ugly version of myself, a person I am not happy to have known.

Divorce is an individual problem. It cannot be generalized. Of course, for some there should never be a marriage. For others, divorce is no more a solution than marriage for a lonely man. For me, it is unfortunate that your actions, not your words, were the catalyst I needed for personal growth. I lost my way and myself. I focused on being a victim of circumstance in a situation I couldn’t change or control, rather than being in control of my happiness and my life. I felt entitled to happiness, and expected it to happen to me without work or effort. Obviously, that is a ridiculous notion. Animosity and fear were always in my closet, both on an individual level and as a partner, preventing me from confronting my issues with compassion. I also don’t believe I had any goals or direction in my own life. I let the company I kept to dictate my life priorities rather than taking ownership over them.

I don’t know if I will ever fully understand your perspective, complete reasoning or at what moment you made the decision. Your reasons are yours, it no longer matters what my opinion of these things may or may not be, my acceptance and related animosity or feelings, are issues I need to deal with. I do hear anger on the phone and in emails. I worry that the process of divorce and the related tasks will not give us a solution to our problem(s), and that hurt will live on. I now believe words carry weight, whether spoken or unspoken. Dealing with that hurt will happen at our own speed and in our own way.

I believe we had something most only hope to find. But, life changed us. Regardless, it came natural for me to love you at day one with the tan sweater and brown tank top. My intention from that day was always to give you the best of me everyday, and for you to be proud of your life and ours. I wanted to be a part of your happily ever after. Creating a family. Writing a book. Going to Fiji. Similarly, you were the only one I wanted to be a part of mine.

My hope for you is that you live life to the fullest, love with every fiber of your being and laugh with your whole body each and every day.

Sincerely & Lovingly Yours,
mahhhty

[Squiggy]

mahhhty,

Despite the reason for this letter, it is one of the most thoughtful things I have read. I see the work you have put into yourself through your words. It brought tears to my eyes to read and thoroughly relate to your thoughts and feelings regarding the progress of your marriage. I wish nothing but the best for you and have no doubt that you will, in the end, make someone feel truly special in the way you outlined.

[mahhhty]

Thanks Squiggy. I appreciate that.

[Georgia Bulldogs]

I worry that IF your wife has been cheating on you this entire time (which is highly likely based upon my experience), then you will likely regret giving her this letter.

If she's not cheating on you it's nice but I don't understand waiting until AFTER the divorce to state your feelings. Many people stop divorces the day and week of them becoming final. They get second thoughts and change their mind (or their affair partner dumps them). Give it to her today and you can get this letter off your desk and your mind sooner. You can release it along with her. Lest you rewrite it three or four more times between now and then.

Also...unless you actually cheated on her I'd have you remove the phrase "I was unfaithful and mentally divorced from you". You didn't and don't want to be divorced at all from her. That's why you came to DB, right? This phrase just strikes me as "you divorcing me is fine since I was unfaithful and divorced you mentally long ago". That's how your kids may read this someday too. I mean, there's owning your villagers and there's owning the village. I'd have you cut down that whole first paragraph immensely. Should you ever get the chance to express that verbally someday...then own your stuff more explicitly in person when you can add context; but this is in writing and could be used to say "see, it was your dad's fault...that's why I left you guys".

[lost18]

We have a phone call this AM to go over outstanding actions. She was sighing and making noises at some of my responses (anytime I disagreed with her). I stopped, composed myself and said "Why are you angry with me?" Her reply was that she has a lot of animosity built up. I tried to open the door for her to tell me why. She didn't. And I replied "You are not very talkative today." This was an obvious error and does nothing to help me, I see that.

Don't beat yourself up over that..it certainly isn't the end of the world.

As far as your letter, as amazing as it is, I would just ask what you're hoping (if anything) to get from giving it to her? I really don't have any advice as to what to do...I wish a vet would chime in on that.

Sorry about your upcoming D. have fun hiking anyway!

[mahhhty]

Thanks Lost. I think the letter was my attempt to open up. Obviously I am hoping it makes an impact. But I can't imagine a world in which this train is stopped.

[mahhhty]

Been a really stressful couple of days. Thanks Squiggy and Lost (as always) for the feedback.

Approaching the close is very difficult. Although the paperwork is mostly done I can tell she feels slighted. Her own Mother reprimanded me today about how she doesn't agree with the CS situation. Does she not understand I am on the cusp of not even being able to afford a life. Does anyone understand that I have to take out a loan to pay her. It seems so odd to me that I can be so flexible but still be the bad guy.

I have been struggling with the letter, with the papers, with all contact and decisions. Today she told me about a vacation she wants to plan. And taking the kids on a plane trip to VA. I always wanted to be a part of the kids first plane experience. This is a memory I won't have and won't contribute to. The finality of it all.

And honestly, I don't have a good reason or full understand of why. Acceptance without understanding.

I can feel my old brain twisting and contorting within myself to try and get out, try to be heard, try to change the future, try to ask her why, try to gain more clarity. Something I have kept at bay for a long time, is trying to emerge as we get closer to the end. However, my new brain says to stop, don't pick up the phone, don't write that email. You are going to her, she needs to come to you. Only then will she be ready.

My old brain just keeps telling me to call her, talk to her about how you feel, talk to her about why she believes what she does, ask again if there is someone else. But the new brain kicks in. It won't matter. It won't make a difference. It doesn't move you in a positive direction, it may move you in a negative one.

This is the hardest thing I have ever been a part of.

[Georgia Bulldogs]

Who lives in Virginia???

Plane your own vacation with the kids before her and make memories of their first plane trip WITH YOU.

I know you are broke but there are huge deals out there to be had.

[lost18]

That answers your question on if you should give it to her or not. I understand, I still have an email in my draft folder that I wrote several months ago. Will it make you feel better? Maybe. Will it have an impact? Maybe. Will it be a positive one? Who knows. The question is will giving her the letter bring you closer to your goal? BTW there are people who have reconciled after D. If that is something you still want your journey is not over.

[lost18]

I did something to my page and I can't get figure out how to get it back...I can't quote, change fonts or color. It would be easier to reply to this.

Sorry you're stressed. I know you this is a tough week for you. Try not to worry about being the bad guy, I'm guessing the court has a formula to determine child support, as long as your kids are taken care of than you're doing your job. YOU should be able to have a life, nice she can afford to plan a vacation.

My brother went thru a pretty ugly divorce and a couple of years ago he brought his kids here to visit (WI to FL). He didn't have much money and I suggested he drive because it would be a lot less expensive than 4 plane tix. One of his things was wanting to take his kids on a plane for their first time (before his xw did.) In retrospect I'm not sure it really mattered to the kids, but it did to my brother. Your kids are young, you have plenty of time to make memories of your own with them, I'm guessing your son won't remember it as his first plane ride anyway.

I truly do understand you wanting to listen to your "old brain," I struggle everyday not saying something to my H, it's ok to want to do that, as long as you don't (right now) because you know it won't move you in a positive direction.

I know you mentioned something about losing your sense of fashion. Go buy yourself a new outfit (ask a sales girl for help) and make sure to look your best next time you see her.

You're doing great M! Remember, focus on the process, not the outcome.

[mahhhty]

Thanks Lost! I really need this during a bad week. As always thank you!

[mahhhty]

Just got this back from the IC about the letter. "My thoughts about the letter is that you should hold off till some of the emotion of the divorce begins to settle for each of you, and you should speak from your heart. I understand what you are trying to convey, but it feels as though you are speaking to and about someone really distant from you, not someone that you have spent years together with."

Definitely right. Not sure I know how to speak to her now.

Had a few conversations today with her about the paperwork. It was a mess. She continually pushes and I feel like the words are manipulated constantly to put me down and lift her up or continue the defensiveness. I'm trying to meet her with compassion but I don't have the techniques or tools down pat in the moment to do it.

I'm really worried about her, she isn't doing well.

Georgia B - I only get your posts like weeks after you post them. Perhaps you are right and she's with someone. l don't care. I can't control that, and although it would be great to know what the real reason is. Thats not the real problem. The problem is her and I.

Almost forget. Met with my DB Coach today. She's the best. I'm thankful I have her.

Signing papers most likely tomorrow. Closing on the house Saturday AM. Then OFF the GRID. Climbing Mt Washington (which is currently -30 deg). Brrrrrrr. It can't come soon enough.

[mahhhty]

T-Minus 1 and 1/2 hour until I sign Divorce Papers.

Can someone go sign for me?

Any suggestions???

[Squiggy]

I hope you're doing well with this, mahhhty. I thought about you today. Don't forget that you are strong and will get through this. You choose your happiness, not her.

[lost18]

((()))

I know that must be very hard. I hope you're ok!

[mahhhty]

I'm back. I signed divorce papers on Friday. I closed on the house on Saturday morning. I had three friends come over. We then went to the mountains. We started hiking Saturday afternoon, slept in a cabin on the trail, and tried to summit on Sunday. We didn't unfortunately, the weather conditions were too much, -42 degrees, NW wind of 76 mph with gusts up to 82. It was exhilarating. We had a great time even though it was harsh conditions. I am now on business travel until Wed. And then this weekend I am going to pick up the kids and head to my sister's for Super Bowl weekend.

While we were signing, I made her laugh multiple times with jokes or stories about the kids. Then I agreed to take the papers to the court, and I brought them. Not her. I thought that was interesting.

Squiggy & Lost... thanks for looking out for me. I appreciate it!

[mahhhty]

Another interesting piece. We started officially dating after I returned from a 24 day backpacking trip in Costa Rica (she picked me up from the airport). That was 9 years to the day we divorced. Irony... I'm starting to think not.