R talks are nice, but what are you two doing to have fun? To feel closer rather than just jawing the thing to death?
We've been going to dinner once every week or every other week, with the explicit understanding that we will not talk about the R during that time. So, we catch each other up on our lives, discuss current events, suggest podcasts/books/movies to each other (and then discuss those too).
Conversation has always been at the heart of how we connected. My H is not the "typical male" who bonds through activities. Even with his male friends, he maintains relationships through dinners and phone calls.
I'm a little bit more activity driven, but I think it makes sense to let H determine how we connect while we're still in the early stages of trying to put this R back together.
In an hour or so, H is going to text me and tell me that D7 is asleep and I can come over to talk. We still have not decided our T-giving plans. H knows how I feel (basically, that there are no good options, but some bad options are better than others). I *think* he feels the same, but his "best of the worst" option is different from mine.
Here are the options on the table:
1. We drive 3 hours to see family, spending the holiday together as a family unit.
2. We drive 3 hours to see family, but we don't spend the holiday as a family unit (i.e., he goes to his parents, I go to mine, D7 goes to both).
3. We stay here and spend the holiday together as a family unit.
4. He and D7 drive 3 hours to see his family and I stay here. H doesn't know this, but a friend of mine has invited me to come over for a T-giving of cocktails and carry-out tomorrow.
My preference is #3, followed by #1, #4, and #2 in descending order. Of course (from what I can tell -- we've only had the briefest of discussions), H wants #2.
I'm trying to detach and not take that personally. I know that he is trying to protect himself (and to a certain extent, his family). Our progress is so tenuous right now. In this moment, I can say that it doesn't bother me. But tomorrow, when H is with his family and I'm not there, I'm scared I will fall apart.
Help me be strong! And detached!
(And hey, for all I know I'm going to go over to H's and he's going to say, let's spend tomorrow together!)
Hello Elsa. I have the same issue with detaching that you do. I'm still learning... so best advice I can give is to promise yourself not to take it personally. Be calm and upbeat... listen to his point of view.... let him know what doesn't and does work for you.
If you have time, you could even email H your options above, let him know your best preference, and then ask him to tell you what he thinks when you meet. That way, when you talk... the conversation could be shorter and under your control as he has to explain himself against your preferences. Beat him to the punch and let him catch up to you.
If it doesn't go your way... have tentative plans beforehand so you can say... "no problems... I have plans myself." Then go and enjoy yourself.
Maybe that would work? Good luck.
Me: 44 W: 45 S: 11 Married: 15 Together: 18 BD: 9/29/2014 OM discovered: 10/16/2014 I left her behind: 12/14/2014
The main difference between 2 and 4 seems to be who you spend time with, no? So if it comes down to those, you should feel ok doing 4 over 2 if that's what you prefer. Either you are with your family or you are with your friend. It's up to you.
As for whether he is ready for 3 or 1, I say listen and see what he says but try not to pressure him. What's more important to you - Thanksgiving 2014 or Thanksgiving 2015? Give yourself the best chance at getting what you want in 2015.
Happy Thanksgiving!
Last edited by ganb8te; 11/27/1412:43 PM.
H 37 Me 36 Together 15 years Married 5 years No kids BD Apr 2014 H moved out 2 Jun 2014
Happy Thanksgiving! I appreciate your advice and support.
I ended up with door #4, and I feel good about it. I don't think that I was a model of detachment, but I do think I handled the conversation very differently than I would have 6 months ago, and so did H.
H called me at abt 9pm to say that D7 was still stirring and to ask if we could talk over the phone instead. I told him I didn't think that was a good idea. H said ok, but then we ended up talking on the phone for abt 30 minutes anyway. That part of the conversation did not go very well. I felt that H had already made his decision abt today without giving us a chance to talk it over as a couple. We went back and forth abt that for a while. Then I asked him, "If I come over and we have a heart-to-heart,* is it possible that we will end up spending T-giving together, or is your heart already closed to that possibility?"
His response (which really made me think) was, "Are you only concerned about the outcome, or do you want to have the heart-to-heart?" He then said that his heart was still open and I agreed to trust that that was true even if we ended up deciding not to spend the holiday together.
Then I went over to his house and we had an entirely different conversation. I listened to him, he listened to me. We talked abt some of the deeper issues that this raises for us both. I was 99% sure going into the conversation that I was going to be the one to give in, so I was able to stay calm as we talked.
One of the things that came up was that my capacity for forgiveness is greater than his. We were both worried that even if we spent T-giving together and had a great time, he would resent having given me the "win", whereas I'm not going to hold a grudge if he goes without me. H said that he didn't want to take advantage of that, but I told him that it's one of the few things we have working for us right now and we should use it if we need to. H said that he was worried I wouldn't be able to forgive easily in the future if we exploit it now. I told him that's a valid concern, but I'm not going to let the circumstances of our R change something that I value abt myself. H said he knows what I mean, because he knows that he has allowed his hurt to change some of his better qualities (he mentioned grace specifically) and he is finding that he likes himself more now that he has accepted the MC's challenge to re-discover those qualities again.
I told H that I can give a lot, and I don't need an apology, just appreciation. H said that he could do that.
As we were winding down our discussion, I said to him, "Ask me to go with you tomorrow." He did, and I said, "Thank you, but I don't think that's the right decision." Then we cuddled on the couch for a little while and talked about current events.
As I was getting ready to leave, he asked if he wanted me to text him tomorrow to let me know he got there safely. I said yes, but apparently something abt my response seemed hesitant because he said, "How about I respond to your texts, but I won't intrude on your day?" At that moment, an idea flashed through my mind and said to H, "This may sound crazy, but what if you interact with me tomorrow exactly as you would if I wasn't there because I'm sick?" He said, "I can do that." I looked at him (with tears welling up in my eyes -- so much for detachment!) and said, "That would be the perfect compromise. Because I'll still feel important to you, but you don't have to worry abt having an awkward or tense T-giving with me being right there."
So, we came to a decision together that we're both happy with. I'm going to do some work this am and then head over to my friend's house. I'm really looking forward to it!
*This is what our MC calls conversations where we try to listen to and understand each other. The MC also talks about "listening for the heart" so that language has crept its way into how we talk abt it too.
Yesterday was ok. H and D7 went to his parents' T-giving and I stayed here and celebrated with a friend. H texted me once, around noon, to say that he appreciated how different our conversation had been the night before and how hard I'm trying. I wrote back a little later and said that I felt good about the decision we'd made and I hoped he did too. Around 6pm, I texted to see when he'd be leaving and what his plans were for D7 (my house or his house for the night). He said that they were headed out the door and that she could stay with me if I wanted. I replied that I did.
I waffled a bit on the next text, but I didn't feel like he'd given me the attention during the day that I was expecting, based on the agreement we'd made. I sent a text that said, "Do you remember what we said last night, that you would treat me today as though I wasn't there because I was sick?" He wrote back yes and said that he had packed me some food and that he had been getting ready to text me abt their plans but I beat him to it. Then he asked if he could call and talk to me for a minute. I was in the process of texting back that it wasn't a good time (I was still with my friend), but then he called anyway and I decided to take the call. H was worried that I was upset. I told him that it's true that I didn't receive as much attention as I'd expected based on our agreement, but rather than be upset I wanted to see if he remembered the agreement and/or had the same understanding about it that I did. He apologized and said that he knew I had plans (and that if I were sick I would be sleeping) so he was trying not to interrupt my day. He said that when he thought about me today, he did imagine that I was home because I was sick and it allowed him to think of me in a loving way. He apologized again and I reassured him that it was okay. And it really was.
I've been reading HTIYMWTAI and I know that my H is hyper-sensitive to shame. In fact, he's told me before that his biggest fear is fear of failure. In light of that, I've been trying not to say anything that could be construed as critical of him or his efforts. (And it's HARD -- he will interpret me expressing a need as saying that he hasn't been meeting that need, or isn't trying to meet that need. Even the MC has called him out on that.)
However, I had a revelation recently and I think that I have been too apologetic when I trigger his shame response. I don't want him to feel badly so I accept more responsibility than I should in the situation. However, I think that ends up reinforcing his belief that I am "attacking" him because I'm accepting responsibility for some kind of wrongdoing. When in reality, if we had an agreement and I don't think he's doing his part, it's okay for me to ask him about it. That's not an attack. And if he apologizes and I accept it and tell him it's okay, then maybe that will actually resolve the issue. So, a bit of an odd 180 but I'm going to try it and see what happens.
I am having a hard time reconciling what he says with what he does. In counseling last Thursday, the MC said that we should talk for at least an hour every other day. H said, "I'm just not at that point yet." And yet --
1. After the counseling session, he asked if he could call me the next morning (Friday). 2. When we talked on Friday morning, he asked me for a dinner date and an R talk on Saturday night, which we did. 3. He texted me on Sunday morning with a complimentary message and asked if we could talk abt our schedule for the week. When we talked, he asked if we could have an R talk again on Monday night, which we did (in person). 4. On Tuesday morning, he texted me again with a complimentary message. When he picked up D7 after work, he asked if we could talk again on Wednesday evening, which we did. 5. Yesterday, when he dropped off D7, he asked if we could all go to dinner tomorrow night. When I asked if we could do our fondness exercise afterward (we've been doing them independently, saying that we exchange our responses to date on or around T-giving), he said yes.
He also told me last week that he is miserable every day "because I don't live with my spouse." I'm wondering if he is testing the waters and seeing if being with me is better than being without me?
Also, he told me on Wednesday night that he wants "fall in love with me again." He then clarified that he never fell "out" of love with me, but he wants it to be like it was in the beginning. We didn't discuss it further, but I wonder -- is that a good sign? Or a sign that his expectations are too high?
Elsa... I think you are seeing good signs from your H. No, your expectations should not be high... but he is trying. Keep making him work for it and maintain your distance. I think you're doing great.
Me: 44 W: 45 S: 11 Married: 15 Together: 18 BD: 9/29/2014 OM discovered: 10/16/2014 I left her behind: 12/14/2014
Maybell, the frequency of R talks in the last week or so is not our usual pattern. We usually have one a week, or maybe every other week (between counseling sessions). During the S, they have been initiated primarily by me, but H has initiated every interaction we've had in the past week. I'm curious to see where this takes us.
One of the things that I used to value abt my H (prior to the past year or so) was how open he was. He's never been a "grunter" -- we used to have (and enjoy) long talks about our emotions, dreams, goals, etc. From his perspective, the R broke because I stopped engaging in those conversations with him, and he eventually stopped trying. In a way, I see his attempts to initiate them as a return to his "old self" -- the one that kept our M strong in the early years.
But, we're still going on dates when we don't talk abt the R, too.
