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Okabe Offline OP
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My Last thread was locked. So here is a new one.
Here is a link to the 1st one:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2497616#Post2497616


M-44
W-44
Sons- 11&14
Married- 18
Together- 27
Separation mentioned- 9-29-14
Still together, but not "together"
"if you feel rotten and forgotten,
remember there'll be better days."
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So my last thread ended with me making a stunning lapse in judgement by pursuing my WAW in a way I really didn't need to do.
Coupled with my desire not to leave well enough alone. I kept missing a piece of "The Last Resort Technique" in my brain.
I thought: "Well, I should try to do 180s on our affection issues since that's what she told me was one of the main issues, because you're supposed to do that according to the book and 'The Last Resort' technique is last right?"
I missed a passage. Glossed over too fast (Mr Bond you have me dead to rights on that). The Last Resort was to halt the dynamic that is going to drive her away. Not a way to work on the issues. I have to wait on that...and that is a hard thing to do.
Thank you all for your feedback and for being somewhat patient with me. I'll keep at this.


M-44
W-44
Sons- 11&14
Married- 18
Together- 27
Separation mentioned- 9-29-14
Still together, but not "together"
"if you feel rotten and forgotten,
remember there'll be better days."
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Okabe Offline OP
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What I've been trying to do.
-Not to contact S from work as much. Only in regards to child related things.
-Making sure I'm facing her and giving her my full attention when she's talking to me (not zoning on the computer).
-Letting her start conversations (although I am not very good at this. I'll still ask her about school, etc.).
-Making myself scarce. Although this feels like what was kind of a problem in the first place since she said she felt lonely before, but I am doing it any ways.
-I've gone out and done a few things for fun. She was invited, but declined. I did them happily without her.
-Working out daily.
-Got a couple of new shirts.
- Got new cologne (Dolce & Gabanna).
- I am laughing a lot more.


M-44
W-44
Sons- 11&14
Married- 18
Together- 27
Separation mentioned- 9-29-14
Still together, but not "together"
"if you feel rotten and forgotten,
remember there'll be better days."
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Quote:
-Not to contact S from work as much. Only in regards to child related things.

Don't take this the wrong way, but you might need to question how important is that child related thing, before you pick up the phone. Ask yourself if it can wait a little longer or do you really need to interrupt her day at that moment. You don't want to appear like a nuisance, so make sure it is a legit reason.

B/c the board members tell newcomers not to make contact except for child related issues.......many newcomers use it as their crutch. "Oh, it's legal (acceptable) if it's about the kids. Nobody can give me a 2x4 if it's kid related". They think of all kind of "child related" things. It really becomes an excuse to contact the WAS.

Not saying this is what you do, but if you find you are contacting a lot, maybe make a list of the things as you think of them. Then you can discuss several things in one contact. frown


It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
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Okabe, I read your first thread with great interest, it's very similar to my WAW situation. My W feels no connection to me, wants to reconnect, but is terrified that she can't. My W unfortunately has an LDEA that is complicating things. That said, both our W have given us the gift of time. You and I are both very similar in that we're having a difficult time detaching.

You're on the right track here. I'm having to pull back from physical affection, I have not said ILY this weekend, except a couple of times in response to her.

Keep at it. It feels very weird, I know. The vets on here know what they are talking about. You have to be somewhat of a relationship scientist and see what works. It's almost harder when they're still basically friendly with you.


Ex Rzrback
Me 43 Her 44
D11, D15
T21, M19
BD 9/9/2014
Piecing

Sometimes if you want to see a change for the better, you have to take things into your own hands - Clint Eastwood

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Sandi2: I don't call too much. It's mostly logistics of who is picking up our kids on some days. Maybe once a day, but not a lot. I used to call more: to say hi, ask about picking up groceries, etc. I have stopped that now.

Rzrback: I'll have to check your thread out later (I'm at work now), but I know the frustration of living together, being friendly, but knowing you're not "together" exactly.
My W is in the "I don't know" stage. It is crazy making to a degree, but I have to learn to let go. I agree, it's difficult.
Funny thing: she's from Arkansas (I saw your location). We visit her dad there every year.


M-44
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Married- 18
Together- 27
Separation mentioned- 9-29-14
Still together, but not "together"
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remember there'll be better days."
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Quote:
Sandi2: I don't call too much. It's mostly logistics of who is picking up our kids on some days. Maybe once a day, but not a lot. I used to call more: to say hi, ask about picking up groceries, etc. I have stopped that now.


Could a schedule be made for pick-ups?


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Most of the time she does it because I work.
Come to think of it. She usually will contact me if she wants to see if I can get the kids from school, not the other way around.
So I really don't contact her from work much at all anymore.

Last edited by Okabe; 11/24/14 07:47 PM.

M-44
W-44
Sons- 11&14
Married- 18
Together- 27
Separation mentioned- 9-29-14
Still together, but not "together"
"if you feel rotten and forgotten,
remember there'll be better days."
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Funny thing...
While I have been focusing on detaching I have noticed (and realized a few things).
I think about the times in this last year I have reached out to do something nice. I've given gifts, done things for for her, said nice things, and have been thoughtful in many ways...but it wasn't received well I guess.
Since I've started the process of detaching I have offered to do things with her, but no takers on the offers. It hasn't stopped me from doing things and enjoying myself though.
I have also noticed that she has been very negative in her perception of the world. This is not in regards to me and hasn't been directed at me. Just watching a tv show with the boys that she was half watching, not enjoying and critical of. Part of me just wanted to say: "lighten up. It's just a show. I just enjoy it to enjoy it and don't think so hard about it."
Just something that I noticed.


M-44
W-44
Sons- 11&14
Married- 18
Together- 27
Separation mentioned- 9-29-14
Still together, but not "together"
"if you feel rotten and forgotten,
remember there'll be better days."
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Okabe Offline OP
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I guess the hard part for me is waiting. I know my wife. She is stubborn and often won't take action until she is forced to. So as I work on detaching I wonder how long before she starts to talk to me about our R, she didn't tell me before. I suppose her feelings are exposed and so are mine, so at least we both (kind of) know where we stand.
I wonder about next year. We take a vacation to visit her family every year when the boys get out of school. Do I go? If I don't, the boys will now be informed about the possibility of separation and divorce being on the table. I know this is too far in the future and I should focus on the now.
I have a hard time letting go of my impulse to want to "fix" things. I can't do 180s on the stated issues because they are all things that will push her away (intimacy and affection). The biggest change I have tried to make is to be sure I am facing her and giving her my whole attention when she is tallking (which I think was definitely a problem before).
I have noticed as I am working on detaching. I am happier. I didn't realize how much I depended on her to feel good about myself. I have also noticed how either unhappy or serious (it's hard to tell sometimes- she has a very flat affect) she is much of the time. I wonder if she ever enjoys herself aside from when she's playing her online games.
Just a few thoughts today.


M-44
W-44
Sons- 11&14
Married- 18
Together- 27
Separation mentioned- 9-29-14
Still together, but not "together"
"if you feel rotten and forgotten,
remember there'll be better days."
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I was thinking about Thanksgiving coming up. We are celebrating with our families this weekend. We host and they'll all be coming by on Saturday. I cook the turkey and a side and they bring the rest.
Besides my wife and I there will really only be one person who knows about our troubles, my good friend who will be coming with his kids. We seem to be in this normal holding pattern. Just with out affection and "I love you"s.
Thinking about this made me realize how disengaged we'd become. I knew it in this last year, and I see that I was the only one even attempting to initiate even just a hug for the last 9 months. She did initiate a hug after I, and our boys, had been out of town for forth of July weekend and we came back.
I guess I always had trusted her to tell me if there was something wrong or to be honest with me when I asked (because I asked).
She, at this point, just seems to be resolved to go along like this. She just helps with the boys, takes care of her fish, and does her schoolwork.
I wonder how long (or what) it will take to move her into any action or change.


M-44
W-44
Sons- 11&14
Married- 18
Together- 27
Separation mentioned- 9-29-14
Still together, but not "together"
"if you feel rotten and forgotten,
remember there'll be better days."
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On the upside I am going to take the boys to the movies tomorrow. My older son wants to see Mockingjay and I may take the younger one later to see Gaurdians of the Galaxy at the cheap theatre later.
A little GAL.


M-44
W-44
Sons- 11&14
Married- 18
Together- 27
Separation mentioned- 9-29-14
Still together, but not "together"
"if you feel rotten and forgotten,
remember there'll be better days."
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It kind of [censored] sometimes. Her cell phone alarm was going off in the living room (set as a reminder to leave for school), she was still asleep, and I don't have her passcode so I could only make it snooze.
After the 3rd time it going off, I take it in to have shut it off. I wake her up, she takes care of it and goes back to sleep.
Looking at her really makes me want to ask for a hug. To cuddle. To be close. I don't, because I know it's not what I need to be doing right now. It is just hard sometimes.
Have a good Thanksgiving everyone.


M-44
W-44
Sons- 11&14
Married- 18
Together- 27
Separation mentioned- 9-29-14
Still together, but not "together"
"if you feel rotten and forgotten,
remember there'll be better days."
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So it was kind of stupid.
I impulsively grabbed her and hugged her today as she was walking past. She didn't really hug back, but smiled and gave me a kiss. Then when it lingered longer she looked down and looked sad. I just smiled at her and said : "I know." And walked away.
I know I shouldn't have, but I just wanted the contact.
It's strange how she seems sadder than I am at this point. She tells me "I don't know" in regards to what she wants. Perhaps it is guilt.


M-44
W-44
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Married- 18
Together- 27
Separation mentioned- 9-29-14
Still together, but not "together"
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remember there'll be better days."
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Hey Okabe. At least you know you shouldn't have b/c you know making W sad makes your sitch it worse. Right now... our presence easily makes them sad. I know where you are b/c I still live with my W too. I want to go down to the couch where she sleeps right now and hold her. I will not. Your need for contact... like my need for contact... has got to go up on the self and stay there until much much later. Let's be strong for our W's and our M's. Let's leave our W's alone and make sure they feel like we want to leave them alone.


Me: 44
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S: 11
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Thanks. It was impulsive.
I was thinking about it. While it was tolerated it is still not what I need. I need her to want that from me, not it to be tolerated by her for my sake.
I am so (lots of emphasis on so) used to being the person who takes charge and makes things move forward in our home, relationship, etc, that it becomes hard for me to let that go. She often is very passive in doing things. People ask what she want (it can be anything): "I don't know" or "I don't care. Anything is fine" are her stock answers. She is good at telling you if she doesn't want something, but being proactive in life: not so much. This is not just with me either, this is with family and friends. That is probably why I end up doing most of the stuff around the house.
In light of that I get fearful that she'll never tell me what she wants and she'll drag out this holding pattern indefinitely.
I know I need to let that go. Be proactive with myself. I am looking at some ACOA books to read for myself. My family has been in recovery for over 30 years, but who knows if there are some issues that are coming into play that I wasn't conscious of.


M-44
W-44
Sons- 11&14
Married- 18
Together- 27
Separation mentioned- 9-29-14
Still together, but not "together"
"if you feel rotten and forgotten,
remember there'll be better days."
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On the upside I do have some GAL progress. Although a lot will wait until after the holidays.
- Started a blog. 3 posts so far and will start promoting it at some point. (need to get my own laptop)
-Going to start bowling with my best friend on Sunday mornings.
-plan to go to 2 concerts in Chicago this spring. I may take the boys to one of them.
-Will hopefully start a new martial art after we shut down our small school.
-looking into hip hop dance lessons. I know someone who teaches, it will just be fitting it into the schedule.
- Have hotel reservations for 2 conventions that the boys and I will be going to next year (which I am really looking forward to). And maybe one more really big one to go to as well.

Feeling hopeful.


M-44
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Together- 27
Separation mentioned- 9-29-14
Still together, but not "together"
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remember there'll be better days."
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Quote:
I have a hard time letting go of my impulse to want to "fix" things. I can't do 180s on the stated issues because they are all things that will push her away (intimacy and affection).


What stated issues can you not do a 180?


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What stated issues can you not do a 180?
[/quote]

Well, I don't know if can't, but I am not sure how at this point in time.
The most stated issues have been in regards to me being not very affectionate (also how that relates to intimacy) and making her feel lonely while I am in the same room (ie: zoning out on the computer). This is what she states the main problems are/ have been and I can see that and don't disagree with her.
But if I am to detach, give her space and not glomp on to her (and in turn push her away) I can't really be affectionate (hold hands, give her hugs, etc) can I?
I have offered to do things with her to spend time together (to hopefully build closeness), but she has refused so far. I can follow her around since that would be pursuing..
I have done one thing which is to make sure I am giving her my full attention when she is talking to me about school or whatever. I stop what I am doing and look her in the eyes and fully engage. That is a bit of a 180 I guess (since I often was guilty of dividing my attention between her and the computer).
Perhaps I am going about this wrong. I have read the books. It just seems that I can't do a lot about the affection/ intimacy until she has decided that she is engaged in the marriage. If I am looking at this wrong please tell me.


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Together- 27
Separation mentioned- 9-29-14
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Quote:
The most stated issues have been in regards to me being not very affectionate (also how that relates to intimacy) and making her feel lonely while I am in the same room (ie: zoning out on the computer). This is what she states the main problems are/ have been and I can see that and don't disagree with her.
But if I am to detach, give her space and not glomp on to her (and in turn push her away) I can't really be affectionate (hold hands, give her hugs, etc) can I?


I actually addressed this same topic right after you first started posting. If there has not been much improvement since you have tried being more affectionate, then she is simply bringing up old issues. Things are more serious, at this point. Over time, she has closed her heart to you. So now, YOU are the one who is not wanting to detach. YOU are the one wanting the affection and intimacy. YOU are scared to death and are holding her tighter b/c you are afraid of losing her.

You are not progressing b/c you do not want to do the necessary steps. You even admitted that when you try to initiate the affection/intimacy it is met with discomfort and you even felt she was simply tolerating your touch. She may have wanted it at one time, but she simply does not want you touching her NOW! How much plainer do you need it? She is not attracted to you. You have to do the detaching, giving her space, and the other 180's first........in order to draw her attraction back to you. This is not complicated. You are not wanting to do this, and you are trying to make it sound as if you don't understand. Everything has to start over, and at this point, in her heart she is not your wife nor lover. She is not your GF. She is not your friend. She is an acquaintance, (and if you play your cards right, she just may want to get better aquatinted).

Start doing what works now, instead of doing what you should have done before she closed her heart.


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I know you're right. It's not that I don't understand it. It is just hard to let go.
I have mostly been trying to detach. I admittedly have had a few lapses of judgement which I won't deny. I have stopped saying ILY, giving her hugs or kisses (with the exception of yesterday), and don't cuddle with her when she comes to bed. We are mostly co-parenting now and like roommates.
I appreciate you framing her as "not your wife nor lover", etc. While hard to hear it gives it a new perspective.
I guess I think I am starting to "get" detaching, but really need to work harder at it. I have to start watching closer as well to see what makes for positive interactions with her.


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Together- 27
Separation mentioned- 9-29-14
Still together, but not "together"
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remember there'll be better days."
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Maybe this has already been posted, but I am going to copy & paste it. It explains about detaching.



Healthy Detachment...(Posted by DBer Peanut originally)

I. Detachment

Detachment is critical to the process of altering and repairing a relationship.

Attached, we take personally ALL that is said, not said, done and not done.

When our ego gets wounded, we are more inclined to do/say things that undermine our goals.

When we are Detached from the actions of another, we can meet anger or indifference with love.

Met with love, we are in a position to diffuse the situation, and transform it in a way that will be in alignment with our goals.

On the flipside, detachment allows us to play it cool when we do get a positive reaction from our spouse. It is a way to break the distance/pursuer cycle.

Detachment is not withdrawal. It is not indifference. It is not the mind saying, ‘I am not getting what I want so I must pull back.’

It is the natural acceptance that we alone are responsible for how we act. We cannot control another person, but we can control how we respond to them.

We are responsible for our own actions (no one else is).

We are responsible for our own happiness. (No one else is)


PART II Detachment (found around here)

Detachment is the:

* Ability to allow S the freedom to be him/herself.

* Holding back from the need to rescue, save or fix S from being sick, dysfunctional or irrational.

* Giving S "the space" to be him/herself.

* Disengaging from an over-enmeshed or dependent relationship with S.

* Accepting that I cannot change or control S and it was never my "duty/job" to do so.

* Establishing of emotional boundaries between me and S, so that both of us might be able to develop our own sense of autonomy and independence.

* Process by which I am free to feel my own feelings when I see S falter and fail and not to feel responsible for his/her failure, faltering or learning.

* Ability to maintain an emotional bond of love, concern and caring, without the negative results of rescuing, enabling, fixing, demanind or controlling.

* Placing of all things in life into a healthy, rational perspective. (=Balance is a piece of detachment).

* Ability to exercise emotional self-protection and prevention so as not to hang on beyond a reasonable and rational point.

* Ability to let people I love and care for accept personal responsibility for their own actions and to bail them out when their actions lead to failure or trouble for them.

* Ability to allow S to be who he/she "really is" rather than who I "want him/her to be."

IF & WHEN THESE ^^^ FACTORS ARE ADDRESSED, -

We could have a great friendship, or a great marriage. And those are treasures.


Last edited by sandi2; 11/28/14 11:18 PM.

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Sandi2 Thanks for posting those. They are golden.


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Originally Posted By: Okabe
Thanks. It was impulsive.
I was thinking about it. While it was tolerated it is still not what I need. I need her to want that from me, not it to be tolerated by her for my sake.

The way I read the situation about affection and intimacy was that she wanted affection AND foreplay (before/during sex) but the two are not the same.

I have the feeling you did not show her affection UNLESS it was a prelude to sex which means it was not really just affection, and even that was lacking b/c you said you wanted to pretty much go at it when you wanted to ml, whereas she needed to warm up more (like almost every woman over the age of 25 does, btw...)

That's my .02 on that part of this. The other thing is that these "sandi's rules" you refer to are NOT "rules" but guidelines that are based on the principles of DBing and when she assembled those one afternoon, Sandi also mentioned that "not all apply"

and of course if your main issue in terms of intimacy s that you did NOT show her real affection - then is withdrawal from her such a great idea?

And make no mistake, the affection you are offering her is NOT a gift from you.

It's a request you are making OF her...for HER to GIVE YOU more affection, which is ironic, don't you think?





I am so (lots of emphasis on so) used to being the person who takes charge and makes things move forward in our home, relationship, etc, that it becomes hard for me to let that go.

Yes, well that is Often confused with OR properly labeled as "controlling". Don't scoff, it may be seen that way, like you pretty much take over & blame her for it.

It's coming across that way to ME and the other part is that it's clear you "do it all" with the expectation you'll be admired and thanked for it, and if not, you resent it.

I think the "low conflict" marriage was simply a repressed one. What do you think?


She often is very passive in doing things. People ask what she want (it can be anything): "I don't know" or "I don't care. Anything is fine" are her stock answers.

she sounds very depressed and apathetic, imo. Has she ever been treated or seen for that?


She is good at telling you if she doesn't want something, but being proactive in life: not so much. This is not just with me either, this is with family and friends. That is probably why I end up doing most of the stuff around the house.
In light of that I get fearful that she'll never tell me what she wants and she'll drag out this holding pattern indefinitely.
I know I need to let that go. Be proactive with myself. I am looking at some ACOA books to read for myself. My family has been in recovery for over 30 years, but who knows if there are some issues that are coming into play that I wasn't conscious of.



Been there, done that. I got something out of a few meetings but after awhile the stories sounded rehearsed and the participants like "victims" who were sort of into that.

I went back once, a few Christmases later after my dad died. And I heard a man tell a familiar story and I recognized him as a man who told the SAME story 5 years earlier as if it had happened the day before.

Turned me off to an extent. But please, by all means DO go if that helps you. Especially since you saw no affection at home and seem to think you are destined to repeat that.

You CAN break a cycle, you know?

Why not Start now?


M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
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Thanks sandi2 for the list. I have read similar things, but the more I read, the more gets through eventually.
25yearsmic: sorry I cannot read half of what you wrote (the kindle fire is not the best for web browsing) .
In regards to what you did write:
You are not wrong about your assessment about me tying affection to intimacy too much. I definitely have done that throughout our M. I would try to not do that and be affectionate randomly as well, but I am sure not as often as she needed me to be.
I felt she isolated herself in many ways as well. But, who knows? Perhaps that was a reaction to me.
And I get the irony only too well about me asking for affection from her. It was a conversation I brought up with her (about wanting a hug from her more often) that brought everything out in to the open.
As far as withdrawal goes.. I am not hugging, kissing, or telling her that I love her. Otherwise I am friendly. I talk to her (as much as she wants to), but I am not isolating myself or brooding.
I couldn't see anything else that you posted aside from stuff I think was about AA or Alanon. I don't plan on going to meetings. My family does and have found benefit. I just wondered if I might have some codependecy issues that are at play.


M-44
W-44
Sons- 11&14
Married- 18
Together- 27
Separation mentioned- 9-29-14
Still together, but not "together"
"if you feel rotten and forgotten,
remember there'll be better days."
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As far as repeating a family cycle of low affection. I am by no means good at it, but I have improved over my parents.
I will read more of the post when I have access to a regular computer.


M-44
W-44
Sons- 11&14
Married- 18
Together- 27
Separation mentioned- 9-29-14
Still together, but not "together"
"if you feel rotten and forgotten,
remember there'll be better days."
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Finally got on a computer.
"Yes, well that is Often confused with OR properly labeled as "controlling". Don't scoff, it may be seen that way, like you pretty much take over & blame her for it.

It's coming across that way to ME and the other part is that it's clear you "do it all" with the expectation you'll be admired and thanked for it, and if not, you resent it.

I think the "low conflict" marriage was simply a repressed one. What do you think? "

You may have a point. I never thought of myself that way, but it's possible.
This is what I meant by my statement. I do the cooking (always have. I like it and work in a grocery store), shopping, cleaning, laundry, pay bills, yardwork, help with the kids etc.
It was divided, but skewed to me doing more things. Everyone saw this and commented at one time or another on it. I didn't mind. I defended her saying she did things as well (which she did).
After her shoulder injury there became less she could do, so I picked up what she couldn't do in support. Now she is taking classes (2 classes 2x a week and 1 online class). So I told her I would support her by helping more. I do the laundry (which she used to do pre-shoulder injury), vacuuming, taking the compost out, cleaning up after the dog when he messes in house (and she has gotten home before me and said she didn't see it. Maybe she didn't).
Right now she does her school work, helps with the boys (which she does a great job),takes care of her fish, and online games.
Here are some examples of what she doesn't take care of (they are strange to me): Often won't order a pizza for dinner (asks me to do it from work since she doesn't want to give out her card #). Doesn't call the doctor to make appointments or ask questions in regards to the boys half the time (says it is because of my work schedule, but I have worked the same schedule for years). I have picked up and mailed out her Dad and Step-mom'sX-mas gift for years.
I don't tell her what to do, or what to believe, or how to think. She is much too strong for that. She is stubborn. If you push her one way, she goes the the opposite or digs in (these are her words). She can be "hyper-rational" and always have a clear reason why to not do something.
She complained about not having adult friends and conversation besides myself through the years. I encouraged her to get a part-time job or find a club to join (she said it wasn't practical because of childcare issues). She wanted to go to school for years. I encouraged her. She said no. No money to do it, and wouldn't take out a loan and didn't think her Dad would help (come to find he would have).
If I had an issue with something in our M. I'd bring it up. She doesn't. I would have to pry things out of her when I could tell there was something wrong ( I eventually told her long ago that I couldn't keep guessing and that she'd have to let me know when something was bothering her because otherwise I couldn't address it).
As far as depression goes:
I'm not sure. It seems like she has always been like this. Her: "I don't know" or "I don't care" when people ask her things about what she wants seem to be just how she is rather than being something related to depression.
However, in the last 5 years she lost her Mother and her best friend. She lost her social outlet doing martial arts with me last fall after her injury. Her only social outlet is her online gaming friends (she plays 3-5 hours a night minimum). So is she depressed in light of that? Maybe. She has said she is lonely. I know that is in reference to me, but it could be exacerbated that she has very little social life. I don't know.
I don't write all this to blame her or abdicate responsibility for my own problems. Just to give an additional picture of our R. I think at times that maybe I have taken on too much and has made some unhealthy co-dependency in our R. And that I need to stop taking care of her so much. Perhaps she resents it? I don't know.


M-44
W-44
Sons- 11&14
Married- 18
Together- 27
Separation mentioned- 9-29-14
Still together, but not "together"
"if you feel rotten and forgotten,
remember there'll be better days."
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A "repressed" M? Perhaps. I feel like a lot hasn't been said. By myself at times and I wonder if she hasn't said things as well (although I have asked).


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Together- 27
Separation mentioned- 9-29-14
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Hi Okabe,

I'm posting and quoting b/c I find it easier to address specifics that way. But I"m not sure how it prints out or how hard it is for you to read, so do let me know, ok?
And my words are in blue.

I'll start first by saying she DOES sound depressed to me. Whether she's always been this way is another point but you'd have to tell me why you married her if she's always been this way AND IF it bothers you.

I can't tell, frankly. However, a woman who says she is "lonely" is a woman who sounds depressed; certainly not happy. Also I'm picking up a lot of "I'm Stuck" from her. Seems like it's by choice but I can't tell what role you played in that, if any.

The "I want to do 'x' BUT I can't..." is usually a road to resentment. Beware of it in yourself and in her & those around you. It's a trait you don't want to pass on.


Originally Posted By: Okabe
Finally got on a computer.
"Yes, well that is Often confused with OR properly labeled as "controlling". Don't scoff, it may be seen that way, like you pretty much take over & blame her for it.

It's coming across that way to ME and the other part is that it's clear you "do it all" with the expectation you'll be admired and thanked for it, and if not, you resent it.

I think"low conflict" marriage was simply a repressed one. What do you think?" ---

You may have a point. I never thought of myself that way, but it's possible.
This is what I meant by my statement. I do the cooking (always have. I like it and work in a grocery store), shopping, cleaning, laundry, pay bills, yardwork, help with the kids etc.
It was divided, but [b]skewed to me doing more things. Everyone saw this and commented
at one time or another on it. I didn't mind. I defended her saying she did things as well (which she did).[/b]

How do you think it made HER feel, to hear those^^^ comments? If she heard you defending her and if you did it well, it still would have gotten to her. IMO, It'd be a hard thing to hear a h complimented for helping around the house he shares with me...and FWIW,
I think almost no one would have said a word to HER, if the roles were reversed.

Seems like when a man does a fairly normal thing (like vacuuming or picking up after a dog mess OR just calling a house cleaner), it's seen as some act of service AND OR a bit of a failure on her end...

And when a home is not well kept, it's usually seen as a reflection of her. Far more on her than on her h, for sure.

Regardless, she sounds depressed and part of it is either reflected by AND OR Caused by, the activities she's doing/not doing.


After her shoulder injury there became less she could do, so I picked up what she couldn't do in support.


Well, "in support" of, or b/c it's just what needs to be done? I don't mean to quibble with semantics here, but that phrasing was a bit...IDK, "self serving" perhaps?

Just See if it might indicate an attitude in you, perhaps underscoring your apparent view that you are the "Giver" in the R (so who is the "taker" if not her?). In her eyes it might not be seen that way at all.

For instance, I do all the maintenance of our cars & if I can't do it myself I take the car(s) in to our mechanics and see to it.

My h knows a lot more than I do about cars, but they frustrate/bore him at times. I get a feeling of security and maybe even "empowerment" from knowing the cars are well maintained, & that we are Not going to have an unpleasant "surprise!" break down. It really means a lot to me. Too many bad memories of breakdowns in college I guess.

Anyhow, I don't see this as something I'm doing "FOR" him or "in support" of, b/c it HAS to be done by someone. So, Why not me? To be clear, I do Not resent this at all. I don't "count" it either.

Make sense?



Now she is taking classes (2 classes 2x a week and 1 online class). So I told her I would support her by helping more. I do the laundry (which she used to do pre-shoulder injury), vacuuming, taking the compost out, cleaning up after the dog when he messes in house (and she has gotten home before me and said she didn't see it. Maybe she didn't).

Except for the last part, ( which you clearly resented), it sounds like you are picking up the slack b/c she's either too busy or she can't do it physically anyhow.
Do you believe ^^this?

May I assume your beef with all this, is that when the kids are at school, she has a lot more "free" time than you, yes?

At some level, do you feel she's being lazy at home? I'm not judging you for that but I am asking if it's how you feel, deep down? Or a part of you?

B/C I sense it but I also get the feeling you won't admit it, yet you want it known. Do you know what I'm asking you?

Also, what is her recovery plan for her shoulder? is she in physical therapy to regain the full use of it? If not, then she's probably sentencing herself to being an invalid of sorts - long before her time for that. That can be very depressing (as can experiencing pain.)
I had a major surgery on my leg about a year ago. I can attest that it's very easy to give up and give in, and just not DO much with that appendage ---b/c it hurts! Plus you are afraid of re-injurying it.

But if you don't do the physical therapy, you'll never get your range of motion back. I really mean that. It's a big deal.


Right now she does her school work, helps with the boys (which she does a great job),takes care of her fish, and online games.

The online games are a little bit foreign to me & I'm not sure I understand it.

I do play a video game with my h now & then. We have played our adult son when he was in NYC. That was pretty cool, b/c we could hear him on our TV and it felt like we really were playing with our kids OR we heard our youngest playing online with her brother and that was pretty cool.

So, is your w on a computer playing and thus not interacting with anyone else in the room, or does she go off somewhere to play or are all of you sort of there, either participating or watching?

Can you explain it a bit more so I can visualize what you mean?


Here are some examples of what she doesn't take care of (they are strange to me): Often won't order a pizza for dinner (asks me to do it from work since she doesn't want to give out her card #).

Hmm, her reason sounds legit. So, not weird. What else about that?

Doesn't call the doctor to make appointments or ask questions in regards to the boys half the time (says it is because of my work schedule, but I have worked the same schedule for years).


I am not clear here^^. Does she work during the day? If not, are you saying she won't make a phone call for the boys, and if so, why not?

I don't get what does your work schedule (or you having the same schedule) has to do with it. Can you elaborate?


I have picked up and mailed out her Dad and Step-mom'sX-mas gift for years.

Scorecards are never helpful or healthy or constructive in a marriage. IMO, they are always destructive forces that erode loving emotions and foster resentment.

So I'd say to stop the measuring^^^ (you are keeping score) and ditch the scorecard, and don't pick it up again. I've had a scorecard myself so I know what it can do and what we tell ourselves it's doing. But man, you have to let it go. Newsflash, THE spouse has their own scorecard and on theirs, we are way behind...


I don't tell her what to do, or what to believe, or how to think. She is much too strong for that. She is stubborn. If you push her one way, she goes the the opposite or digs in (these are her words). She can be "hyper-rational" and always have a clear reason why to not do something.

Never heard the term "Hyper-rational", but having a clear reason for doing or not doing something sounds like a good thing.

I guess what you are making the case for here^^, is how you are NOT controlling, correct?


She complained about not having adult friends and conversation besides myself through the years. I encouraged her to get a part-time job or find a club to join (she said it wasn't practical because of childcare issues). She wanted to go to school for years. I encouraged her. She said no. No money to do it, and wouldn't take out a loan and didn't think her Dad would help (come to find he would have).


So she feels STUCK in a big way. Does she blame you for it?

Why are you bringing up all this history?

If you go to MC and do this, it'll get you nowhere fast. That's why a lot of mc's are unhelpful. We rehash the past and then get mad all over again.

Div Busting is solution based, which simply means we want to know how to help matters NOW, not so much about how we got here.

The history or "how we got here" ONLY helps if you are going to stop the pattern you see. Which you could also do by simply working on it, now.

The risk you take when you go over your marital history is that 1) one or both of you will get mad again and NOT be interested in repairing things;
AND OR 2) there will be a ton of BLAME to go around, which makes both feel defensive and solutions harder to see

AND OR 3) you discover the history is NOT seen the same way and that bothers you a lot, so much so that one or both of you wants the other to see it their way and begins to discuss/argue about the past.

Just remember the main thing - that you agree on your future...not so much the past.




If I had an issue with something in our M. I'd bring it up. She doesn't. I would have to pry things out of her when I could tell there was something wrong ( I eventually told her long ago that I couldn't keep guessing and that she'd have to let me know when something was bothering her because otherwise I couldn't address it).
As far as depression goes:
I'm not sure. It seems like she has always been like this. Her: "I don't know" or "I don't care" when people ask her things about what she wants seem to be just how she is rather than being something related to depression.



Why did you marry her? (Yes I'm seriously asking you). Also, what does she feel passion for or about? What is really important to HER? How do you know that?


However, in the last 5 years she lost her Mother and her best friend. She lost her social outlet doing martial arts with me last fall after her injury. Her only social outlet is her online gaming friends (she plays 3-5 hours a night minimum). So is she depressed in light of that? Maybe. She has said she is lonely. I know that is in reference to me, but it could be exacerbated that she has very little social life. I don't know.


2 significant deaths/losses, losing a social outlet, acting stuck, AND outright telling you that she's lonely - are all pretty classic factors in depression. Plus she has a physical injury that is morphing into a painful disability...

What strikes me now, is how you resist admitting it. But yes, it's my opinion that she IS depressed. That doesn't fix anything, but it sure seems clear to me that it's a factor here.

I don't write all this to blame her or abdicate responsibility for my own problems. Just to give an additional picture of our R. I think at times that maybe I have taken on too much and has made some unhealthy co-dependency in our R. And that I need to stop taking care of her so much. Perhaps she resents it? I don't know.


Perhaps doing the things you list, (and you do LIST them) undermines her self esteem or seems like a tactic of yours to guilt or shame her, (not saying it is)
and maybe she senses that and resents it OR maybe it makes her feel lousy about herself or her life...

All I can say at this point, is that your wife needs help. Is she getting some counseling AND is she doing anything to help her shoulder? Supporting her in those efforts might be the best thing you can do for her AND for the m.

What do you think?

Last edited by 25yearsmlc; 11/29/14 10:14 PM.

M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
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H off to Alaska 2006
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*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
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It would show a lot of strength and compassion and integrity to help your wife get help, which she will have a very hard time doing on her own-- one of the effects of depression is feeling stuck. I know this first hand. I needed help desperately and getting it seemed impossible. She will need help to get help. Find a therapist, offer child care solutions, etc etc. It is scary to begin therapy.

My H blamed me for not addressing my mental health issues. He kept urging me to see a counselor, but didn't actually help me overcome the obstacles I felt in getting it (finding a good counselor, paying for it, child care issues).

I wish someone had advised him not to resent me for being ill and instructed him to be more proactive in getting me help. That would have been a very loving, strong thing for him to do.


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Originally Posted By: claire7
My H blamed me for not addressing my mental health issues. He kept urging me to see a counselor, but didn't actually help me overcome the obstacles I felt in getting it (finding a good counselor, paying for it, child care issues).

I wish someone had advised him not to resent me for being ill and instructed him to be more proactive in getting me help. That would have been a very loving, strong thing for him to do.


That is also one of my H's complaints. He would often over the past few years tell me I was depressed, and was angry that I "didn't take care of myself." I think if he would have addressed it from a place of love instead of resentment I may have addressed my issue sooner. Instead I felt attacked and became defensive. Didn't do either of us any good.


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25yearsmic,
Thanks for the input.
Whether she's always been depressed:
It's hard to tell sometimes, but I don't think so. She definitely went into a depression after she lost her mother (like one would expect) and a couple of years later after her best friend died.
I noticed the biggest change in her a year ago, around the time she injured her shoulder. She said the problems were there long before that (which is true), but that's when I noticed (what I thought) a real change in her. She seemed more withdrawn, uncommunicative, less affectionate, and depressed. I would ask her about it and she would tell me nothing was wrong. So I chalked it up to be pain related to her injury.
In regards to her injury. She had surgery in April and physical therapy after that. She has most (not all) of her range of movement back, but not all the strength. She was really good about her PT exercises, but hasn't been doing much for strength building lately.
I don't know if she'd do counselling. Years ago when she was having some issues with her Dad I suggested it and she said : "what are they going to tell me that I haven't already thought of".
I really think she needs to get out. Have friends besides online ones. Maybe this is naive on my part. I just wonder if she is depending on me for 80% of her social needs and resents me for not making her feel thrilled in that. I could be completely wrong in that, it was just a thought I had.
I get what you are saying in the gender roles. You're right. I probably get more feedback than she would for doing the same thing.
The "I'm stuck" message you got has been there for a long time. I feel like I've tried to encourage her to do things (anything at times) but always left it up to her. Who knows? Maybe I should have argued with her about it mote.
I remember pointing out to her that she could have had an associates online degrees in the time she spent gaming (she used to put in 8-12 hours a day).
I don't list the things I do to her or throw them back in her face. I just do them. And recently I've been doing the things she used to do. I don't know if this is because of schooling keeping her busy or preoccupied or why exactly. I have wondered if doing all these things have made her feel less competent or less like an adult.
I think the classes are helping her feel good about herself (and she should, she is an excellent student). I think getting out and doing something social would hep. I will watch her to see if it does look like depression.


M-44
W-44
Sons- 11&14
Married- 18
Together- 27
Separation mentioned- 9-29-14
Still together, but not "together"
"if you feel rotten and forgotten,
remember there'll be better days."
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25yearsmic,
I missed a lot of what you wrote again (kindle doesn't scroll through the quote box) but I am on the regular computer now.
About me listing all of the things I do in support and whether I think she's lazy.
I didn't mind doing more things around the house and when she needed the extra help due to her shoulder (and even now for school) that's okay. BUT when the kids are on summer vacation and just hanging around the house and she is playing her online video game throughout the day and I come home from work to cook dinner and I have to clean for half an hour so I can start and I ask her what she did that day and she says "not much, played games, took a bath" then, yeah I get annoyed by that. I don't expect her to be a perfect housekeeper or anything like that, but to help would be nice.
As far as doing the Scorecard you mentioned:
You're right. I need to stop it. I am hurt, angry, sad, and scared right now. So I mentally lash out (I don't say these things to her) and list all that I do to try to justify myself as being a nice guy and her as fault too. I need to stop that. It's not productive and you're right in that she's probably got one one me just as bad or worse.
Online gaming: She plays MMOPG's (Massive Multi Online Player Games: think World of Warcraft as the most popular example). She plays on her computer which is in the living room with a headset on. She now has er own computer gaming/ work station which is where she spends 80% of her day. It is in the living room so she is accessible to everyone while she does her school work or plays her games. She started about 7 or 8 years ago and got quite involved with them. At first it became a problem where she would easily log 12 hours a day on the computer (in the living room with a headset on) playing these games. I confronted her about how much she was playing a few times, but it had no real impact until my older son Who was 6 or 7 at the time felt like his mom cared for the game more than him. She then cut her playing back and would only play after the kids went to bed. I go to bed early (because I work really early) so she will be playing when I go to bed and will come in sometime between 12:30 and 3am (I get up for work at 3:30- 4 am). Now that the boys are older she will play during the day (when she's not in school) while the boys are busy playing their own games or watching tv. Do I feel like this has an impact on our relationship? Probably. To what extent I don't know. I gave up fighting her about it because I know it was a place she got some social time with adults.
Her recovery for her shoulder is pretty good now post surgery and PT. She doesn't have full range of motion, full strength back, and it can get a little stiff, but otherwise she is doing well.
I suppose, much like the Scorecard, the history is just that and I need to give it a rest. You are right in that I need to work on solution focused things now, rather than dwelling on the past.
Why did I marry her?
She is someone I enjoy spending time with. We laughed together and had fun together. She is a loyal, caring, compassionate person.
I have more to write, but I have to go now as my younger son just woke up.
Thank you for your perspectives. They have given me things to think about in regards to myself and how I approach our M.


M-44
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Sons- 11&14
Married- 18
Together- 27
Separation mentioned- 9-29-14
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Depression can also appear as laziness or a withdrawal from connecting with people in real life. The massive hours of online gaming and the lack of motivation to do chores or household tasks both seem to fit that...

How might your response to her be different if you looked at her like someone who was ill and hurting rather than someone who was lazy.

I'll tell you from my experience-- I was fairly high functioning but also felt very stuck and unable to motivate myself. .. and I hated myself so much.


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A few more minutes to write:
She is funny and clever. She is wildly intelligent and values learning. She is interested in the world. I really enjoy talking with her.
What is she passionate about?
Right now her schooling. I am really happy she is finally going.
Her family. She always has been.
The out doors. She loves camping. Especially with her dad where she grew up. She always has had that passion.

Depression. It is hard to tell with her. It maybe low level, but she is not one to wear her emotions close to the surface a lot. I will watch for it. She seems serious much of the time. Intently focused on her school work.


M-44
W-44
Sons- 11&14
Married- 18
Together- 27
Separation mentioned- 9-29-14
Still together, but not "together"
"if you feel rotten and forgotten,
remember there'll be better days."
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Claire7,
Thank for the feedback. I probably would respond differently if she looked "stereotypically" depressed. And would urge her to get help. If I were to Do that now I don't know that she'd see herself as being or needing help.
She has been motivating herself in regards to school and parenting. That is where most of her (non gaming) focus goes.
I wouldn't exactly describe her as lazy because that is not quite it. She just defers doing a bunch of things to me and just stopped doing things she previously took care of.
I will watch for depression and see it there is some way I can address it without getting into a R talk.


M-44
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Married- 18
Together- 27
Separation mentioned- 9-29-14
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remember there'll be better days."
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I don't know your wife, obviously, but I can tell you that I did not look to most people "stereotypically" depressed. I got up, went to work every day, laughed and smiled. I did not look like the people on the AD meds commercial at all.

If anything, people thought I was too serious, or had a negative outlook, or was anti-social or shy, or got stressed easily.

My H was the only one who seemed to have a clue how troubled I really was... and he didn't even know the extent of it. And part of what made life so exhausting was hiding all that pain and all those dark thoughts.

There is no way to know if this is at all similar to what your wife is feeling or thinking, but I thought it might be helpful to hear another side of it.


Me 38 H 40
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Yes. Thank you. I will keep it in mind and see if there is a way I can bring it up.


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Married- 18
Together- 27
Separation mentioned- 9-29-14
Still together, but not "together"
"if you feel rotten and forgotten,
remember there'll be better days."
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Well I kind of mentioned depression today.
I suggested that she try to set something to do with her other best friend whom she rarely sees or talks to anymore (her friend has 5 kids and 4 grandkids so she is often hard to get in touch with). She said basically that: she's too busy or too hard to get in touch with. I mentioned that you never know unless you try.
I asked if things were weird at Thanksgiving with her Step-dad three with his new girlfriend and our friend there with his new girlfriend (her best friend who had passed husband). She said no, that it was fine. I mentioned that I wondered because I knew how she had (understandably) struggled with depression after her mother and (later) after her friend had passed and wondered if it was still affecting her now. She just said "I don't know".
So that is where I left it.


M-44
W-44
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Married- 18
Together- 27
Separation mentioned- 9-29-14
Still together, but not "together"
"if you feel rotten and forgotten,
remember there'll be better days."
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We had a nice Thanksgiving celebration with both of our families at our place.
She helped get the living room looking nice and a little in the kitchen as well. I told her I appreciated it. She looked at me kind of funny and said thanks.
I have been trying to do this more. To say something and appreciate something when she does something that I didn't expect. Everyone likes to be appreciated and it to ne noticed when you do something. I wasn't horrible about this before, but I wasn't great either.


M-44
W-44
Sons- 11&14
Married- 18
Together- 27
Separation mentioned- 9-29-14
Still together, but not "together"
"if you feel rotten and forgotten,
remember there'll be better days."
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I don't know what others think, but I find this to be a good article /list on detachment.

http://www.marriageadvocates.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/266618


M-44
W-44
Sons- 11&14
Married- 18
Together- 27
Separation mentioned- 9-29-14
Still together, but not "together"
"if you feel rotten and forgotten,
remember there'll be better days."
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I can be so dense sometimes. Every time I think I am making some progress with detaching I go right back and do something I shouldn't.
This morning we were talking about the holidays and I was mentioning that I was planning on getting myself a laptop after the holidays. She asked if I would like one as a gift. I told her I hadn't thought of it but that I had had a few gift ideas for her this year (we haven't exchanged gifts the last couple of years since there wasn't much either of us wanted and clutter in the house).
As we talked about the holidays I felt good so (against my better judgement) I asked her if she'd like a hug. She told me that she would give me one if I wanted one. I asked: "Well, would you actually like one?" She told me it didn't matter to her. So I left it and said "okay" and didn't give her one.
While it was dumb of me to ask, at least I didn't just glomp on to her and hug her anyways I guess.
This is a process. I at times feel like I am doing better and then I have set backs like this.
At least I didn't let her response devastate me. I accepted it and I backed away. Small victories in failure.


M-44
W-44
Sons- 11&14
Married- 18
Together- 27
Separation mentioned- 9-29-14
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"if you feel rotten and forgotten,
remember there'll be better days."
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I was thinking about it and realized something.
I was feeling good about our conversation, so I projected my wants on to the situation rather than just observing it and accepting it as it was.
I was surprised about her offering to get the laptop for me for x-mas and so I felt good about things and pushed that feeling too far into an action that I hadn't needed to (and shouldn't have).
Live and learn I guess.


M-44
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Married- 18
Together- 27
Separation mentioned- 9-29-14
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remember there'll be better days."
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Originally Posted By: Okabe
I was thinking about it and realized something.
I was feeling good about our conversation, so I projected my wants on to the situation rather than just observing it and accepting it as it was.
I was surprised about her offering to get the laptop for me for x-mas and so I felt good about things and pushed that feeling too far into an action that I hadn't needed to (and shouldn't have).
Live and learn I guess.


Hey, this is NOT a linear process. Sometimes I made leaps and other times I backslid big time. Hang in there, it DOES improve....eventually.


M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
OW
DIV 2/26/2018
X marries OW 5/2016

= CLOSURE 4 ME
Embrace the Change
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Thank you.
I just have to remember/ learn that this is a time for me to address my stuff, to learn to "let go" in a healthy manner, to GAL, and restrain that urge to try to "fix" her or the relationship. I have to accept where she is at for now until she is ready to start talking about the "R" (which with her could be a long time).


M-44
W-44
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Married- 18
Together- 27
Separation mentioned- 9-29-14
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"if you feel rotten and forgotten,
remember there'll be better days."
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On the way to work I was thinking that the more I spend of my time obsessing over the details of our M, the less I am able to detach. Yes, I need to work on myself, read relationship books, and be more aware of my W (so that I can do 180s and actions that make a difference), but I should learn to create more mental space or other things.
GAL actions:
- Working in shutting down our kwoon (martial arts studio). It was time (it wasn't a business. just a small non-profit school). That will free up more time for me once that is done.
- Got 2 new credit cards. My first in around 20 years. I'm not planning on going on a hog wild buying spree, I just want the extra fraud protection that a debit card doesn't have.
- Going bowling this Sunday with my best friend.

Otherwise life keeps going on (almost) like normal. She's friendly, we'll talk about closing the kwoon, her school, the kids, or the upcoming holidays. It's like we always were, just with no ILY or affection. I'll keep at it.

"if you feel like you can't function,
start shuckin' the jive,
don't drown in the sound
of your certain demise,
just be a different person if you're hurting inside." -MC Chris


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Married- 18
Together- 27
Separation mentioned- 9-29-14
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"if you feel rotten and forgotten,
remember there'll be better days."
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Feeling panicky.
Worried how long it will take for W to bring up a R talk. When talking to my best friend over the weekend (who has known us both for 20+ years). He pointed out a few things.
He said: "While you do a lot of the stuff in your marriage, XXX decides the mood and course of your marriage, I have seen it she always does."
When I mentioned being worried about Divorce being filed. He said:" I don't think she ever will. She likes the status quo too much and always has. She doesn't move to do things, you do".
I told him I worried about being stuck in this weird holding pattern indefinitely. He told me as far as he could tell we had been in the same holding pattern for 20 years.

He had some interesting points.
What I don't like today.
How easy she adapted to me not saying ILY or initiating any affection. It makes me feel down and anxious this afternoon (or perhaps that is just too much caffeine).
I won't do or say anything. I just needed to get this out.

Blech.


M-44
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Married- 18
Together- 27
Separation mentioned- 9-29-14
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remember there'll be better days."
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Well, I watched an episode of Arrow while I walked on the treadmill. That seemed to help some. Time to go make dinner. Hopefully I can keep myself distracted and my spirits up tonight.


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Married- 18
Together- 27
Separation mentioned- 9-29-14
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remember there'll be better days."
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I was thinking /wondering about how much (in a couple of ways) my W mirrors her mother.
Her mother got her education /career later in life. My W just started school last year.
Her parents separated (they were never married) when she was 16. My oldest son will be 15 this month.
There is part of me at times that wonders if she is unconsciously living a script from childhood.


M-44
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Together- 27
Separation mentioned- 9-29-14
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remember there'll be better days."
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Originally Posted By: Okabe
I was thinking /wondering about how much (in a couple of ways) my W mirrors her mother.
Her mother got her education /career later in life. My W just started school last year.
Her parents separated (they were never married) when she was 16. My oldest son will be 15 this month.
There is part of me at times that wonders if she is unconsciously living a script from childhood.


I'll post more later but wanted to chime in with a question.

What difference does any of this "analysis" make? It does not change your course of action (I hope, b/c it's all speculation).

So why not just focus on YOURSELF? As for GAL, let me share something with you. I'm not giving you a 2 x 4 but I KNOW you can GAL way more...

And you Cannot Detach Without GAL. You really can't.


For GAL suggestions, let me mention some of what I did when we lived in the interior of Alaska, even in the winter. And I had 3 kids including a baby (so you know I don't want to hear about how you are 'too busy' to GAL).

Inertia is the greatest enemy to GAL. Overcome that, & you'll be well on your way to a happier more fulfilling life. IMO, the more you overcome inertia, the better your R's will be with all people, including your w.

I volunteered at a battered women's shelter.

I coached a girl's softball team, two summers (my older D was on it).
I was on the board of directors for Wrestling, (b/c our son wrestled).
I auditioned for community theater and met some fun creative people. I got cast, too.

I did stand up comedy (and yes, I still do it). I did a whole set once on a MLCs at the Improv. It went very well.

I learned to cross country ski, became a better shooter.

I Learned to hunt big game, to deep sea fish, & I got better at downhill skiing.

I learned to use a snowmobile ("snow machine" to Alaskans)
I loved riding.

Learned to fly a plane, and I got a pilot's license.

Went skydiving. Loved it so much I did it again. And plan on doing it again, soon!

I Edited a book. (The book ended up on the Best Seller's List. Who knew?)

I Worked out 3-4 times a week, and I really did get in excellent shape. Looking good made a world of difference to me. Found a work out partner and began socializing after the work outs.

(Plus I'd just had our last child and needed to lose the baby weight. It was not easy to do, let alone in the dark of their long LONG cold winters).

Saw a therapist and for some months, went on ADs.

Took a pottery class (very odd for me to do, but I liked it a lot).

Joined the Officer's Wives club after 15 years of active duty.

(Wish I had joined sooner! Met two women who are life long friends to this day.)

Joined a writer's group
Took a class in Conversational French
Took a class in Italian cooking

There is more, but I just wanted to suggest to you a few things you can do that do not cost a lot.

Other than pilot training, most of these ^^ activities were free, or quite cheap.



M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
OW
DIV 2/26/2018
X marries OW 5/2016

= CLOSURE 4 ME
Embrace the Change
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Originally Posted By: Okabe

I was feeling good about our conversation, so I projected my wants on to the situation rather than just observing it and accepting it as it was.


This is something that I'm trying to work on too. I'm getting better since we've been LC for most of this time. I've realized that I'm not projecting back on her now; but it kicks me into a "is this the time to make a next step?" phase....like I'm in tonight...

Last edited by MCS; 12/05/14 03:00 AM.

M:36 W:37
T: 15 M:11
S6 D5
BD: 8/10/14
IDLY: 8/12/14
S: 8/13/14 (she left, I stayed w/ kids)
D Mentioned: 10/15/14
Confronted about OM: 10/15/14
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25yearsmlc,
Thank you for the feedback.
No, I realize it is all speculation and it doesn't change my course of action. I was just having one of these days where my emotions took a turn and I got feeling a little panicked and down.
I really like you list for GAL.
I do plan on doing more, some immediately, some after the holidays and after I close down our kwoon (kung fu school).

What is coming up immediately (I've listed these before):
- weekly bowling with my best friend on Sunday mornings (I haven't bowled for a long time).
- Working on a blog (hard to get time at the computer for this, but I am planning on getting a laptop after the holidays)
- Working out. I usually do about 2 miles on the treadmill a day after work.

For next year:
-Hip hop dance lessons (a former coworker teaches them)
-I have signed myself and S11 up for archery lessons on Saturday mornings (my son wanted to do this so I decided to join him).
-Taking my boys to 2 conventions (Feb & July).
-Hopefully going to 2 concerts in Chicago in the spring.

I have been looking at other things as well (hopefully Japanese classes as well).
It was just a down day and I admittedly get stuck waiting for her (which I know is exactly what I am not supposed to do).


M-44
W-44
Sons- 11&14
Married- 18
Together- 27
Separation mentioned- 9-29-14
Still together, but not "together"
"if you feel rotten and forgotten,
remember there'll be better days."
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I also hope to take another martial art. I know of an inexpensive Judo club or a doing some knife fighting (eskrima) training.
I have a mandolin that I'd like to finally learn to play.

I realized, after your post, how much I am still kind of watching and waiting for my W to make a move. Anything. An indication of what she wants and I need to stop that.
She is going to do what she is going to do in her own time and I can't just sit her waiting and driving myself crazy in the meantime.
Thank you for the feedback.


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Together- 27
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Originally Posted By: Okabe
I also hope to take another martial art. I know of an inexpensive Judo club or a doing some knife fighting (eskrima) training.
I have a mandolin that I'd like to finally learn to play.

I realized, after your post, how much I am still kind of watching and waiting for my W to make a move. Anything. An indication of what she wants and I need to stop that.
She is going to do what she is going to do in her own time and I can't just sit her waiting and driving myself crazy in the meantime.

Thank you for the feedback.


That's it^^^. You CANNOT WAIT for your wife, for your life to continue. The urge to "do SOMETHING" can backfire big time, if it's not thought out, and or if it's a reaction to how you FEEL, which is often the case.

So, 2 things to recall. 1) Act/behave in alignment with your GOALS, and NOT your emotions.

2) For GAL, (to be clear, hey, I do like your GAL plans!)

I just want to add something that makes sense to ME...b/c In my opinion, the GAL things that involve us with other people, is more useful and productive than solo activities like working out or playing a game or blogging on the computer...

Make no mistake, I DO value getting in shape, writing, AND having some "alone" time. Absolutely, we all need that. We need to be able to breathe & ponder about, freely. Plus, looking better & feeling better are very connected, not to mention the endorphin thing, and getting OUTSIDE/outdoors...that is all good stuff.

However, IF your immediate goal is to stop obsessing about the situation or what your spouse is doing/feeling/thinking/planning/going,

THEN I urge you to do more things that get you interacting with others, especially new people who do NOT know your wife or your situation. (Also, "new" experiences are stimulating and require more concentration. The more you concentrate on the new experience, the less you go off on a painful, counter productive tangent).

When I was in a play (theater is an avocation for me) it was totally absorbing b/c for ME, there's nothing more terrifying than being publicly embarrassed. I even had a ruptured disc in my back, and during a 2 hour dress rehearsal, I nearly "forgot" about it for most of the time. Seriously, that "mind over matter" concept can really work. So, for me, THAT was a surefire way to get my mind OFF other matters.

If you can go SEE some plays, you'll find that live theater requires much more focus, than watching a movie at home. Stand up comedians are excellent too, and laughing is SO healthy for us!

Later, I went to Italy with our 3 children for my 25th anniversary (I was NOT going to be home alone crying like I did for our 24th, when h was living elsewhere and yet sent me roses & a "we'll get thru this, Happy Anniversary!"...go figure)

My older D and I planned the trip and the planning itself was SO fun, and so stimulating and so NOT about h. NOT about our m. NOT about my sadness or grief or anger...just me and my kids exploring a country I'd never seen before but had long desired. It was probably the BEST TRIP I'VE EVER TAKEN. (And I've had great trips.)

Nothing reminded me of h, and there was zero tension, we got by on our French and English and hilarious Italian, and we had FUN. We demonstrated that a family can be intact and close, even with a partner missing.

As a veteran & military wife, I can attest to the fact that many families have to do this for long periods of time. We strive to thrive.

So, whatever it is out there in the world that really gets you going, makes you feel passion in your gut or exhilarated, mentally and or emotionally, DO IT MORE. OR go discover it!

The more interestED you are in the world out there, the more interestING you become. So you bring more to the table as a partner.
Do you get what I mean?

And the more new people you meet, the easier it is for your new improved self to "practice", and not be held back by history.

Make sense?

To repeat, act in accordance with your goals, NOT how you feel that minute.

**Wow, reading that^^sentence makes me wonder how much of this ordeal we'd have all avoided, if we all had done just that ^^ (i.e., "act in alignment with our goals", NOT how we feel that hour/day/week,) in the first place. But I digress.

So, the PLAN:

1) Determine your 180s and imagine your new improved self, which traits to enhance, develop, explore OR ditch b/c they do not serve you well.

2) GAL, which is key to Detachment, which is key to self growth, in order to

Become a man only a fool would leave
.
And that is your overall goal so that no matter what choices others make for their lives, you Okabe, will have become the man you were meant to become.

That's the single true upside to these ordeals. The most we ever grow as people, is nearly always from a tragic mistake on someone's end...go for it.

Last edited by 25yearsmlc; 12/06/14 08:05 PM.

M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
OW
DIV 2/26/2018
X marries OW 5/2016

= CLOSURE 4 ME
Embrace the Change
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I cannot thank you enough for your perspective!
You are definitely right about more of my GAL goals need to put me in more social situations them solitary ones. Because you're right: it is way too easy for me to obsessed and ruminate about my R if I let myself (I've really noticed that in the last couple of days and I know that is not the way to go about it).
Your last post inspired me to look into volunteer opportunities in my area. O have at least one that I may do.
I have also thinking about how to occasionally teach Wing Chun informally after our school closes.
I need to sit down and imagine my plan.
Thanks again. Now it's time to go make soup (Thai curry lemongrass: yum).


M-44
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Married- 18
Together- 27
Separation mentioned- 9-29-14
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The soup was good.
At dinner W was very quiet and I noticed she didn't look at me through the whole meal even though I was talkative and in good spirits (most talking to the boys). She said she was fighting a headache so that could be it, but I decided not to let it bother me.
W did get incredulous when S11 and I were watching an anime that had some blood and a creepy, psycho kid. I didn't see the big deal. S11 and his friends talk about more violent stuff than the show at school. She doesn't like anime so I think she's biased against times. Once again I decides to not let it bother me. I respectfully disagreed with her and let her be upset without letting myself get worked up.
Going bowling with my best friend tomorrow and making candy for holiday gifts with S14.


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I'm loving the conversation between you and 25years, Okabe. Sounds like you handled the anime conversation very well. You've inspired me to put Thai curry lemongrass soup on my ingredients list for the week. It does sound YUM.


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Ganbatte! Like your name. I am familiar with the term from having seen a lot of anime in the last couple of years.
Before I would've just agreed and tried to "fix" the situation by trying to diffuse her anger. This time I just let it be. It is not that I didn't see her point, I just didn't happen to agree. This is not to say I won't own my screw ups, I am just trying to avoid placating her just to avoid conflict.
Thai curry lemongrass soup is excellent at this time of year in the northern hemisphere. All the garlic, ginger, lemongrass, and jalepenos I use are good for the health and the soul. smile


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Together- 27
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And the feedback from 25yearsmic has been valuable to me.
I was always looking at 180s as something in terms of her and how I needed to change for her sake rather than seeing 180s as a way to make myself a better man for me. To take what isn't serving me well in life and changing it for me.


M-44
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Married- 18
Together- 27
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Some 180s I was thinking about:
Stop automatically placating to avoid conflict.
Ask for help. Instead of doing everything and feeling overwhelmed (and then internally acting like a martyr), ask for help when I need it.
Laugh more (I've already started doing this). Don't let myself become moody and brooding.
Stop telling W everything I am doing or about to do. She doesn't need an ongoing narration of my day. I need to stop feeling the need to fill the silence all of the time.
Be more affectionate. While I can't do that with her I can give my boys more hugs, pats on the back, etc.
Doing fun things with my boys. She may not like or want to do what we are doing, but that shouldn't stop me from being an involved dad.

Last edited by Okabe; 12/07/14 03:24 PM.

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Together- 27
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A good Sunday.
Went and bowling for the first time in like 10 years with my best friend. We plan to make this a weekly thing.
Made X-mas candy for gifts for S14 to give away. Still have more to do, but we're half way done.
Put a post out on FB to my friends on there to get a group together to do the hip hop dance lessons in January.
Practiced my mandolin.


M-44
W-44
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He he. You're the first person to "get" my name. Seemed fitting. My sister was living in Tokyo at the time of BD and she wished me ganbatte. I'm still here trying my best.

There's some good 180s on your list. Still a bit too much focus on W? I found it useful to turn non-actions (e.g. stop doing X) into actions (i.e. do Y instead). So one of my 180s is to stop being so reactive (hard to measure progress). My action is to commit to daily mindfulness practice so that I become less reactive. Somehow that little twist made all the difference in me feeling like I was actually working on my 180s.


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Originally Posted By: ganb8te
He he. You're the first person to "get" my name. Seemed fitting. My sister was living in Tokyo at the time of BD and she wished me ganbatte. I'm still here trying my best.

There's some good 180s on your list. Still a bit too much focus on W? I found it useful to turn non-actions (e.g. stop doing X) into actions (i.e. do Y instead). So one of my 180s is to stop being so reactive (hard to measure progress). My action is to commit to daily mindfulness practice so that I become less reactive. Somehow that little twist made all the difference in me feeling like I was
actually working on my 180s.


Glad I got the name. My boys (and I ) would love to visit Japan some day. smile
Good point in turning the 180s into actions instead of being reactive. I will give those some thought on how to re-make those more action oriented for myself.


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Oh you have to go to Japan. It is an amazing place. AMAZING! And for someone who follows anime…I can't even. A.M.A.Z.I.N.G!!!


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Someday.
My sons are both self professed "otaku".
My older son takes Japanese in high school and was hoping to do a summer study abroad program. If he does I'll find a way to make a trip to visit him as well.
My younger son wants to go and see AKB48. LOL! Some GAL goals I guess! Just got to save the money.


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The conventions I am taking my boys to this year are actually anime conventions. They are a lot of fun.
And the blog I started is about anime and parenting.
I am such a nerd. smile


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Holidays are coming up and deciding how to handle X-mas.
W and I are still living together and the kids don't know anything has changed between us.
For the last several years we haven't exchanged gifts because there was nothing in particular we wanted and didn't want more clutter.
This year I had thought of a few things to get her that she'd like, but is that a good idea? I wouldn't think of it as a way to get in her good graces, just a nice gift for the holiday.
Not sure what to do here....Ideas?


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I have noticed ever since I stopped affection and ILYs the W appears moody, often doesn't look at me, and is irritable with the boys more than usual.
I will tell her thank you for doing something that I appreciated (like doing some dishes, etc) and compliment her on her parenting (she's really helpful with their school stuff) or how hard she is working in school. All met with silence.
Just some things I had noticed.
Perhaps I should stop?


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In the last several weeks and in reading that detachment thread yesterday I realized how much in the past several years I became dependent on my W for my esteem needs. I really waited (never aware that I was doing it consciously) for her approval.
If nothing else I can get myself to a much better place and be a better person who likes themselves a lot more without being dependent on anyone else's approval.
I also came to see how affected I was by her emotions (not that she is super-emotional). I have been far too enmeshed for too long without (once again) even being aware of it.

Last edited by Okabe; 12/11/14 11:43 AM.

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I had been trying to figure out if I do anything for W for X-mas while still trying to detach.
I came to the conclusion if I am giving gifts that it should be fine if I keep my perspective. That it is something that I do because that is the type of person that I want to be and that I place no expectations on her reaction to said gifts.
I do something nice because I do something nice, not because I expect she'll react in any particular way.
I think I am doing this in a detached manner...


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Got home from work and W was/ is in a decent mood. Not as uncommunicative as normal. Spoke to me about going x-mas shopping for the boys next week. I told her what I had added on insurance for next year on open enrollment. She spoke about the coming year in regards to that.
It is strange. She has said she doesn't know if she is still "in love" with me and whether she wants to be with me, yet she does talk about/ plan for the coming year. I find this confusing.
It doesn't change my course of action though. I still am going to work on myself, detach, and GAL. I don't hang any hope on her future talk. I just find it perplexing.


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Although I will admit some unreasonable paranoia when W keeps insisting I text her when I leave work on Friday. I always leave early and pick up the boys. I told her I might run some errands if I leave early enough, but that I'd still pick up the boys. She was just very insistent about getting a text when I leave. This is just my brain running away with itself, worrying about nothing.


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Spoke to our HR person at work about counselling program thing they have. I plan to start IC in the new year. I have been seeing some ACoA issues and codependancy stuff that had affected my R that I'd like to work out for myself. A little self care.


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Had mostly a good (busy) day. Taught the second to last kid's class at our kwoon. Cleaned out a lot of the stuff. Dropped S11 off at home. Visited the Sifus of 2 other schools and gave them some stuff. Stopped by our friend's house (who we rarely see) and visited a while. I was out of the house for much of the day.
W stayed home and did her school work and helped S11 with homework. I noticed she frequently won't look at me. Not sure why. I also see that she doesn't look very happy.
I find at times that I fill silence with talking hoping that she'll cheer up. But I know that is not my responsibility. That is my codependant side creeping in wanting to fix.
I get angery at her (when alone thinking about things) and have lost my trust in her to be truthful. I need to let this go.


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It's been 2 months since I joined the forum.
I feel like I know how to approach DB better and am slowly getting better at detaching. I am looking at the new year as an opportunity to get in a better spot and remake myself.
What happens with W remains to be seen. She doesn't seem to be affected either way by my detaching actions or 180s so far, but I know that is not the entire point.
I kept myself busy this weekend and out of the house much of the time.
I had coffee with my best friend (who has known me for 20+ years). I spoke to him about my codependent behaviors and what I was doing with DB. He is very supportive and thinks DB ideas are pretty good. He told me while I own some of the problems in the M he feels like there is something going on with my W and that she would benefit from counseling (although he doesn't know what would ever get her to go).
I also ended up deciding to get W presents for X-mas. I just give them with no expectations of anything (they aren't extravagant). I just decided to give freely, if this was a LRT mistake let me know. I was unsure of this.


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After talking to my friend we also cancelled our plans for a week long camping trip that we had planned to do this July. He said it might be weird depending on where the W and I were at. Also his new girlfriend (he is a widower) doesn't know anything about our sitch and he didn't want to put her in a potentially uncomfortable situation. I completely understood.
Now I just have to decide if we plan a camping trip as a family (with out our friends) or not... I was thinking putting the planning in W's court and letting her decide and make the plans (which she never has in the past) if she wants to go.
Does this make sense? I am not the one making the future plans. She would be.


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Quote:
This year I had thought of a few things to get her that she'd like, but is that a good idea? I wouldn't think of it as a way to get in her good graces, just a nice gift for the holiday.
Not sure what to do here....Ideas?


Quote:
I do something nice because I do something nice, not because I expect she'll react in any particular way.
I think I am doing this in a detached manner...


Quote:
I also ended up deciding to get W presents for X-mas. I just give them with no expectations of anything (they aren't extravagant). I just decided to give freely, if this was a LRT mistake let me know. I was unsure of this.


I would not say it is a "mistake", but you keep bringing this up about getting her gifts for Christmas (and nobody has said a word) and it's like you are trying to excuse it away. Way too much talk about it, which means you are over-thinking it, which means you are giving it too much importance.....which means you still have a long way to go in detaching.

You go for years that neither of you exchange gifts, now THIS year you are claiming to be in LRT, but you want to get her SEVERAL gifts. If you were in piecing, I could understand, but you said you are in LRT. If you want to get her something, wouldn't it be less obvious if you got something small and rather inexpensive? But, do what you want.

On another subject, you watch her way too closely. If you are aware she never looks at you....then you must be watching her all the time. That feels very smothering to a WAW. And, it makes you appear less than confident, insecure, and co-dependent on her. That is not flattering. If you were detached and really applying LRT, you would not be looking back to see if she was looking back at you.

I do think you recognize some things in yourself that you still need to work on, and I compliment you for not giving up and striving to get better at this. Two months is not long, but many men in your shoes don't tough it out even that long before they say "none of this is working".

It does seem strange she insists you text before picking up the kids. Maybe you need to forget a time or two?


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Sandi2,
Thank you. You are probably right.
Being that we are living together and maintaining some semblance of normal and the boys having no idea what is going on makes me unsure of my actions and whether I am "detaching" the way I need to.
You are right about me watching her too much. I have to stop being over-focused on her and what she is doing and feeling. I will work on this.
On the gifts I was really unsure. I know my friend thought I should. I asked her (as we have done in the past) if we were going to exchange and she said: "I don't know". Not being sure of what to do I just went ahead (it is under $120.00 for everything). But I definitely see your point. As far as over-thinking it: yes. I do that a lot.
I do have a long way to go. I'll keep trying. I want to do this right for myself.

Last edited by Okabe; 12/15/14 05:30 PM.

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I just read what I wrote about the cost of everything and remembered something (I believe) you told me: that she does not see me as her partner, lover, best friend, or wife.
I would not spend that much on a room mate or friend.
I could kick myself. I don't know why that didn't stick when I was thinking about this before.


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Here are a couple of suggestions about the gifts. 1) You could have them wrapped, but hidden away and not put under the tree until you see if she has any for you. If she does, then you could bring your gifts out to "surprise" her, and act as if it was planned that way. 2) You could place only one of the gifts under the tree and hold the others for another gift-giving holiday.

Most of all, don't sweat it. The most important thing right now is to work on not over-focusing on it, b/c that prevents you from detaching.

I notice that it seems really difficult for the LBS to not buy a gift on holidays that traditionally calls for it. I just want to remind them that they seldom "win" any points with the WAW and gift-giving. If he doesn't recognize her, then she uses it to justify her feelings. If he does get her something, she doesn't really appreciate it from her heart (even if she's able to mutter a thank you), b/c she is a WAW. IMO, most WAW's look at anything over the top as him trying to kiss-up. But IJMO.


Last edited by sandi2; 12/15/14 07:46 PM.

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Number 2 seems like a good idea. One of the gifts (the most expensive one) is a gift certificate that will expire by next fall (an outdoor theater season), so that one should be used up. I was thinking putting the boys names on it, that way it would deflect some of the pressure (though she'd know) to thank me.
You know as I thought about it, I bet I was trying to win points in some way, but just didn't want to admit it to myself. I've got a ways to go yet.


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I've not heard many who are big enough to admit it.


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I am trying to learn about myself more in this process and that has to come with some humility and owning up to my own faults.
I appreciate your, and everyone else's input / insight. Hopefully I will come through all of this wise enough to be helpful for someone else in the future.


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I am trying to detach. I really am. The holidays and W is making it difficult.
So on Tuesday we had to go X-mas shopping together for the boys. I had a few things in mind that they said they wanted and we were looking at that.
W then starts talking about purchasing an x-box one. I hadn't even considered it. She would make this purchase and I told her that it was more up to her since it would come from her account. I was fine either way. She has been trying to decide this over the last 2 days. She just called me at work and talked to me for about 15 minutes about the pros and cons, whether to make it a family gift, how I could use it as a multi media device (I probably should've cut this short), etc.
For someone who told me that she wasn't sure if she wanted to stay with me or if I was the kind of man she wanted to be with anymore, buying things (and planning for the future) together is confusing.
Don't get me wrong. I am happy that she doesn't have one foot out the door, but these mixed signals are hard to deal with at times since I don't know what to make of them.
Just have to shake it off and re-focus on detaching, getting myself right, and GAL as much as possible.


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I don't know if it is that the W is out of school for the semester, the holidays, if DB stuff I am doing is working, or some combination thereof but W has been more communicative and less sullen this week.
We are still in the no affection or ILYs stage and I don't see that changing until a R talk happens, but I am not pushing for this.
I guess I will continue to try to detach better and GAL until I see some more concrete movement back to a healthier R and then we can start working on something better.


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Through X-mas finally. It was a good day. Both my and W's family came to our place and celebrated. W was friendly, but not overly so.
I gave her the gifts since I had them (and one of them had to be given and used), and I put the boys names on the expensive one. She told me that she didn't know we were exchanging gifts. I replied that she never gave me an answer and that I had told her that I had something for her, but that it didn't matter that she hadn't done anything. She said she would buy me accessories for when I purchase my laptop. I said if she wanted to do that that was fine and up to her.
I also did a very non- DB thing. I decided before I went to bed last night to offer her a hug. She accepted and hugged back and gave me a kiss. I told her I loved her and she replied she loves me as well. It was warm and genuine and the first hug that I have had from her in a long time that felt like a real hug (not simply tolerated).
That being said: while that interaction was really nice I can't read too much into it. I figure I need to go back to detaching, and GAL actions. This was a nice moment, but the work to repair our M will happen when she is ready to talk about our R and we can start to move forward.


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So I'm sitting in the living room on the couch and W is sitting by herself on the loveseat. I want to sit next to her so we can be close, but I am afraid this will come off as needy and be unwanted.
At what point do I try to take action? Is it just best to wait for her to take the first step? Feeling unsure of myself given that we've been getting along recently.


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Have you read this? To me, this is DBing at its finest and it's working well. No pursuing at all. Your W is warming up a little? Keep doing what you're doing, no pursuing.

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2520244#Post2520244


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Thanks Mozza. I didn't. And I plan on keeping on working on detaching.
I told her goodnight as I left the room (she stays up much later than I, playing online gaming) she said goodnight and blew me a kiss. I think it was kind of automatic, but it was the first time she's done that on her own in months.
I am planning on several GAL activities for the coming months. IC, archery lessons with s11, hip hop dance lessons, judo, and hopefully mandolin lessons.
I have been working on my 180s: letting her take care of more things (mailing out her Dad's x -Mas gifts, getting the oil changed in the van, etc. I have made sure that I give her full attention when she is speaking to me. I think those have helped.
The holidays have made it challenging to detach, but I'll redouble my efforts.


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Back to working on detaching.
The W seems back to her pre-holiday self (a little quietly and seemingly down) . I should stop watching though.
It has been hard to detach though. The temptation to bring up R talk or attempt affection has been strong lately. I won't and do plan to. I guess I just wonder if I am going to have to be the one to bring up R talk. W is slow to change and I often wonder how long it will take her to bring up what direction she wants to take. I know however if I end up bringing up R talk I end up in the same roll as pursuer that I have always been in. I can't do that again. It wasn't helping before.
I hope I am thinking about this right.


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Well I was just stupid.
After taking a bunch of steps towards GAL (setting up a mandolin lesson and IC for next week) I go and step in it.
I mention to W that I'd be gone a bunch on Monday. That I had my lesson and an appointment. She asks me what for and I tell her: counseling. She looked genuinely surprised. "Oh really?"
I told her I needed to deal with some things. That I still didn't know what she wanted and that was hard to deal with. I ask her what she wants: she says: "I don't know."
I ask her don't you want things to get better?
She says: "it's the way its always been".
I told her bul#$@p. That is not true
She replies : "ok. It doesn't matter."
I ask: "don't you want things to be closer, better?"
She replies (with a flat face) :"it doesn't matter".

And that remained her answer.
This was textbook of what not to do. I feel stupid for walking through that door.
Time to back off. I am sure of this. I have no idea of her thinking about our M.
She seems resigned to an affectionless, distant M as far as I can tell.


M-44
W-44
Sons- 11&14
Married- 18
Together- 27
Separation mentioned- 9-29-14
Still together, but not "together"
"if you feel rotten and forgotten,
remember there'll be better days."
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 155
O
Okabe Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
O
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 155
At least I didn't get over sad and panicky like I normally would have.
I told her that I didn't agree with her.
So that's something I guess.


M-44
W-44
Sons- 11&14
Married- 18
Together- 27
Separation mentioned- 9-29-14
Still together, but not "together"
"if you feel rotten and forgotten,
remember there'll be better days."
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 155
O
Okabe Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
O
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 155
This is the sad thing: while she is not wrong in that we had problems with affection, there was affection there. There was closeness. There were genuine warm feelings. I can see what is said about a spouse "re-writing" history in their minds, because she has done just that. She doesn't seem angry or hurt by it, just resigned. She only gives me a flat affect in response to the questions I posed last night. She acts as if it just doesn't matter. I have a hard time believing it doesn't affect her in any way.
I wonder if she is just deciding to do nothing at this point so she can take no blame. If she tries something and it fails then she'd have to take both that risk and failure if it didn't work. She instead she takes the "safe" route of doing nothing.
I don't get this...


M-44
W-44
Sons- 11&14
Married- 18
Together- 27
Separation mentioned- 9-29-14
Still together, but not "together"
"if you feel rotten and forgotten,
remember there'll be better days."
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 155
O
Okabe Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
O
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 155
Thinking about it this morning and realizing that I am still attached to the outcome.
I keep thinking about detaching, but am not doing it right. I still focus on the outcome of "fixing" my M. Not all the time,but I do come back to that.
I need to not be so concerned about the outcome of my actions for the marriage, but to improve myself. That way no matter what happens there is a positive outcome of mentally and emotionally being in a better place.
This has been a hard process for me.


M-44
W-44
Sons- 11&14
Married- 18
Together- 27
Separation mentioned- 9-29-14
Still together, but not "together"
"if you feel rotten and forgotten,
remember there'll be better days."
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