Busting this Divorce - Separating

[HPoirot]

Hello Pink17. Thank you for keeping up with my sitch. Count on me to read your posts and offer any support I can.

Honestly, my wife has said so many things I cannot be sure where her head is and I'm actively not looking to figure that out. She shows she feels shame, guilt, and confusion about her A. It seems OM lives in another city and is only in my area during the week. Other than that, if I think too much about her A I get so angry that I backslide so I'll leave that there.

I'll tell you Pink17, I have made mistakes in how I approach W. I am still learning.

At first, when I discovered her A... I thought is was a long distance A because of the man's area code and the amount and time of texts. I was firm but very kind and supportive of her when she showed remorse and said she would end it. I did not put a time limit on her doing that. I treated her lovingly just as you describe looking for ways to fill her "love tank." A part of me, though, was screaming how could I treat W so kind and sleep next to her when she's in a A. I know her and she wants a man who leads. I could not image she would ever have me as an H again if I kept acting like her BFF. I did not feel I was defending my family and I allowed my self-respect to suffer. I got angry and started to push with my OM boundary mission. She responded with threats to separate.

I still struggle with the right balance of care and distance. I see I tend to either soothe her or shut her down. I learning to just stay still and mind my own business. But, since we live together and she is constantly wanting to communicate and feel some comfort and cooperation from me, I have to decide how to be with her that works for my goal and be be consistent with it.

In this phase, then, with her still not wanting to drop OM but asking me everyday for cooperation, conversation, feedback, even warmth... I'm going with "we are not friends." I will be polite even businesslike... not initiate talks... not engage in R talks... not go to MC... essentially not follow her plan while she's in her A. This is for me and my sanity. It is also admittedly b/c I want her to know I'm simply not tolerating her A. Finally, I understand backing away from her and acting "as if" I'm done and moving on is the only way she'll ever look in my direction.

For example... after her screaming this morning and usual threat to move out... she texted an apology and has texted me twice since asking me about plans for Thanksgiving. Day after Thanksgiving she had planned to "be away" in another city near here to go shopping with "friends" (something she has never done and didn't offer to tell me about). Now, she asking about what I planed to do with our S11 that day because she has now made a plan with him. She also asked what I would like to do for Thanksgiving because as she says... "I would like to make dinner with you and the boy." I have not responded to either text as they are not emergencies. I'm still not sure if I'm taking this stepping away from her too far by not answering her random attempts to get me to respond.

In fact, I really don't like any of this. It all feels like playing games when part of me wants to just shake her and point out all the obvious flaws in what she's thinking. She asks me "What do you think we should do? How can we do this?" I have to fight not to give her my opinions and fixes. But that is my problem thinking and I'm seeing it is the wrong wrong wrong way to approach this. Nothing will get fixed today... her mind will not change today... but could she be realizing how much family she'll miss out on now that her "sweet H" who made her feel so nice just yesterday is going out all night to who knows where... does not immediately answer her call... and is centered and focused like he's going somewhere with a plan while she is sick, suffering, and falling apart? What happens if she climbs in bed tonight and her H kindly explains she was right that while she is disrespecting our M she shouldn't sleep in our bed?

I really don't want to find out. I really don't want any of this. I should be working and enjoying my day right now but I'm still here mired in this sitch.

I don't have to like this. I just have to do this.

Yes, when I start typing I can't stop. I really helps me so thank you for your comments Pink17. I am happy to answer your, or anyone else's, questions.

Good luck to you.

[Vanilla]

HP

Calm

Breathe

You are doing great

Let W take all the actions now. Don't get in the way. Stand, stand, stand.

You are more centred

Sending you strength

Vanilla

[Pink17]

I really like your answer HP, do you see how far have you came. Even with a lot of pain, you know what you want and need, you set your boundaries, you are respecting yourself a lot more. It's very positive for you as you are also in this journey to grow into a person you want to be.
Be proud of yourself.
And all the folks here are right, stand, stand, be patient, patient and later be more patient, let W do whatever wrong she needs now. She is confused, fogged, she can't understand herself.
In my sitch you can see that H is doing all so great for himself and yet when he left he house on 10/31 I asked him to give me some time and space and just communicate if urgent, he did text and call every day, even invited me to go out for a drink and talk about us... well, I did not like that but was also every single opportunity to show him I am not broken and I respect myself enough to not fall apart, and he can see I still love him but I will go on with my life. At first, I tough he was going crazy w/his attitude towards me, then reading some LaBug posts I realized that since I am changing he is reacting to this and it makes him to have all kinds of feelings. It's the hardest thing I ever did in my life, but it's also my decision to rescue my M, so I need to swallow my pride for now and do the hard work.
Be also patient with yourself, be kind, gentle... please, take care of yourself, don't go out and let the pain take the best of you. Maybe try to schedule some time for the pain to hit you hard and have most of the day to enjoy who you are, your son, the good memories of playing with him, they grow up fast, so enjoy this kind of love too.
Do some good for other people, at this time of the year there are lots of things to volunteer that will make you feel great and not think too much about your W crazy world. Surround yourself with hope and good stuff, it make you feel great and your W will see that too. She will appreciate the kind of man you have become.
There are many different kinds of love and they are as important as the one from our H/W. It is just a tough, like I said I am new here, but I read DB and DR and found that it all comes from within us, so if we feel good, it will spread around us too.
I didn't ask H about Thanksgiving, I am taking the boys to the mountains. He took his decision to screw this family so stick by your decision and let us built our new traditions. It's a family holiday, and as far as I understand he does not want to be part of this family anymore and I will not give him this pleasure, he won't have both worlds. Maybe he will think about what he is doing, maybe not, but at least I am doing what my heart and brain feels right.
Good luck, take good care after yourself and your son.
Pink

[HPoirot]

Thank you Vanilla and Pink for your encouragement. I can see that I've come far since my first frantic angry post here. I choose to accept that truth as 25 and Wonka have warned me of my tendency to be negative and ignore positives. While maybe I shouldn't need reassurance that what I'm doing with the everyone's help here is the right thing... it does help so much. Whenever a you or a vet or anyone here says nice work... I feel immensely grateful and it gives me more strength to take the next step. I can do this with your help. Thank you so much.

Like Wonka and Starsky suggested, I am putting away all the love language work and focusing on pulling back from W. It just occurred to me that I'm now acting somewhat like she has acted towards me... not meeting my needs, being polite at best (though I will always be polite), ending conversations, hanging up the phone, not initiating conversations, not comforting, not reassuring, not being available, not reaching out. Honestly, I'm afraid of pushing her right out the door with this. She reacted so strongly to just a few minutes of my pull back. Usually I would have pursued and smoothed it over to keep her close... to keep filling her love tank which I was enjoying.

But then she texts and apology and that she wants to make Thanksgiving dinner with me and the boy? Like how I did when she pulled back... is this her looking to smooth things over? Like you were saying Pink... how your H started to react to you once you told him to stop contacting you. I have to admit... I hope she tries to budge me off my boundary with a show of nudity and/or an offer of sex. I will of course reject her but still...

...

I've spent the entire day out the house. I have not responded to W 2 texts about Thanksgiving. She said the NC on texts and phone calls over the past couple days really bothered her. When I told her explicitly to stop contacting me she still did. She cried and said she was worried... didn't know if I was dead in a ditch. She also made a point to mention how busy I've been a couple times over the past few days. She mentioned it in her screaming this morning and in her text later today... "Since you are so busy lately (and I am very happy for you about that)..." That just confirms what I already know... what I am doing is working in terms of I am really GALing and it shows.

Bonus is I've found a great place to sit and get free internet. A nice warm visitors center with lots of sunlight and people milling around. It helps not feeling so sad about not being at home on this cold day. I would prefer to be home with my boy. I can get better spending longer time around my W now that I am backing off. She will likely just go to our room and close the door. I really am afraid it will be too much for her to see me so distant. I think she will take it as a personal attack and leave the house. She's so sensitive about being judged about this A. So afraid what others would think of her decisions she said once. I can't, though, bend over backwards to make her comfortable in the house like before. This is the reality... her H will not tolerate or accept what she's doing. I am not her friend.

At the same time... I think about what 25 has been getting me to understand about feeling empathy towards my W. I have experienced her sitch through my own A.

It seems like 2 very different approaches to interacting with W.

How can I bridge my pulling back and enforcing my boundary around her A with feeling empathy and caring for my W?

If you know, can you please let me know?

And I still have to deal with my inviting her back into the bed. Our talk yesterday really seemed to sit well with her. She felt safe to come back to bed and was dumbfounded by my pulling back today. I'll have to practice what to say if she comes to bed again. I would be surprised if she did after pulling back today.

I'm tired. I still have to work on my business. Had a few very lonely moments today. Looking for a holiday support group. Growing in ways I never imagined.

Time to go home.

[25yearsmlc]

Thank you LisaB, Wonka, Starsky, Vanilla, and all of you for checking in on me. I am exhausted like I fought a battle today.

But I did it.

Today, while W and I talked, I was better me.

I'm too tired to do my usual book length post, so I will try to summarize and fill in more tomorrow.

Funny thing... she showed up early today... soon after I wrote my last post. I did not get a chance to see all your great advice for the talk.

She looked tired and miserable. She asked to talk immediately. I said OK. I was not feeling friendly yet as I was not ready.

Our first talk was tense and logistical. She wanted to talk about moving to a new apartment together to save money this year. She wanted to talk about the email where she laid out her ideas for the next few months until summer when she thinks she may get her own apartment (depending on money).

I basically calmly said, you're making these choices, it's up to you. I got up and walked away. She stayed sitting and didn't say anything.

I went upstairs and got centered. I remembered the enpathy post I wrote. I really tried to see things from her point of view. I didn't plan to go back downstairs... but after a few minutes I did.

I'm glad.

She was still sitting in the kitchen, her arms folded on the kitchen table and her head down on them. I walked over to the other side of the table. I do not remember what I said. Something about "I don't understand."

Then we had a second talk. It was both wonderful and horrible. We actually connected a little at the end.

She said a lot of things about how she's feeling. Lots of information to work with.

But mainly, she came at getting MC from every possible way. You were right Wonka.

She wished someone was there with us to mediate. Someone to help her say everything she wants to say without hurting me. She wanted to make the appointment today.

She wanted...
Someone to tell her if she should work on our M.
Someone to find out how we could be better people and maybe then work on the M.
Someone to help us learn to co-parent.
Someone to help us be friends again.
Someone to help her explain her thing with OM.
And other things.

She came at it in so many ways trying to get around my boundary. Like she wanted me to allow the A go on and go to MC to talk about it.

Hmm, I don't get that^^ feeling from what you said, she said she wanted. She SAID she wanted reasons to fight for the marriage and I sure wish you had then and there, given that to her. Like some belief that YOU Would do your work too, not just all on her.

Let's not forget the A you had, that she still does not know about...

Even so, every time I say something like... You're absolutely right W. We need MC. And it's non-negotiable for me... your A must end. I said it directly, calmly, even lovingly. I was that way the whole time. I felt great.


Glad you were calm. Really!

But I'm NOT so sure why you insist on something she won't do...and maybe the others can explain this to me. WHY not go to MC?

Sure sure, most MC's don't help. I agree. THAT part, I get.

But is there some other reason? See, for ME, making a condition that she end the A first, is odd b/c you have not really given her many reasons FOR staying married given the way you both acted like platonic friends and NOT like mates act. You TOLD her once that the OW was your real love or "epic love" or something along those lines, correct?

I used her words... "like you said W... your heart is in another place... distracted. And in MC we should be both in there with no distractions."


Fair enough...if you only use these^^ terms I can buy it. Otherwise it seems punitive AND worse, unlikely to succeed.

On our second talk, she cried a lot. She started crying when she said she was deeply hurt when I did not answer her texts and phone calls.

When I talked about how we're not friends anymore, she talked at length and passionately about how important our friendship is to her and how she can't lose it.

I managed to praise her for being brave enough to tell me she didn't love me.


I don't buy this. To me, you are cementing something she probably did not mean.
OR holding her to something and "calling the bluff" and making this a prideful thing.

Why do that?

That I was grateful for this time to grow and that I've learned a lot. She asked if I was still in my on-line support group. I said yes... I've made some amazing friends there and they pulled be back from the brink because I immediately wanted to "divorce your ass" (exact words I used). She really smiled and said she was so happy I made good friends (thank you everyone).

She said, even if she packed up her bags tomorrow, she loves me. She said me and our S11 are her #1 priority. When I said don't worry about me, she cries all I worry about is you.

At one point she said "I should just stay and fix the M." She said that 4 times in a row. Of course she said it in a resigned voice.


Why didn't you affirm this at all? Seriously....why? Dig deep and see what role, if any, pride played.

She also said things like she can't give me what I want. I asked her what she thinks I want. She said to say I want to fix the M. I admitted... of course I would love you to say that. But I know you don't feel that way.


she is obviously conflicted as her above comments show. Why confirm the negatives like how she "does not love" you AND then this, "I know you don't feel that way". Part of her does!

You are your own person. I know I cannot change your mind and I do not want to. All I can do is make a place you may want to come back to one day I said.

She said some very interesting things. She said, if she made the decision to walk away, that she did not expect to be happy. She expected to be miserable for years. When I said, I know you don't want to be with me, she said she didn't want to be with anyone.

if I could get you to change one thing, the "I know you don't want to love ME" type of comments would be it. Please stop cementing the negatives and ignoring the openings she gives you for some leadership.


She mentioned a previous EA that was just for conversation with a friend from high school. She mentioned that she doesn't know OM... he's just a stranger and she just wants to feel like a woman and get her needs met.

What are those needs, or did you ask? Do you feel you know them?


She cried how I'm a good man. She asked how we could live together?. How she was disrespecting me and how doing so could she sleep in bed with me?
---

So basically a lot of the thoughts swirling around in her mind. She did almost all of the talking. She did not get angry at all. She was nice and even loving to me. She also shook the whole time. Sometimes tapping and even hitting her head. She looked terribly unhappy.

Then I said... let's stop here. I have a lot to do today. Thank you for talking And I got up to walk away.

Then I turned and said as terrible as this has been, I have enjoyed some of the talks we've had since BD. She brightened and agreed. I said we've haven't been close like this in years. I said this is intimacy you know... talking like this. If we didn't care about each other... this wouldn't be so hard. She really smiled then and said yes you're right. I felt some nice connection then.

This ^^ is sort of beautiful...maybe "Bittersweet" is a better term. I know it's bitter but there are surely some sweet pieces in there too.

And I got stupid.

I said, "and you're invited back to the bed."


---

Nothing was decided in our talk.

While she said multiple times she really really wants MC and she really wants to be friends no matter what, I did lovingly make clear multiple times...

While she is in A there will be no MC.
While she is in A we are not friends.
If she ends our M in this A we will never be friends again.


IF the marriage ends, you do know it's not BECAUSE of OM. You are being punitive and hypocritical here. You had an affair and if I recall right, YOU did not end it, OW did.

Unlike your w, you were not honest about it. So now you are "never" going to be friends with her if she remains honest and sees OM and the m ends. EVEN though you also said you know he's "just the symptom and Not the cause".

Does this really ring true and honest and right to you? All of it? Guess we can disagree. Because I really do. I'm open to hearing the reasoning behind all these conditions you give her but which were NOT given to you, and yet you still returned to the m.

--

She never said anything about divorce. She was never definitive about not being able to fix our M. In fact, once she corrected a definite "I can't get it back" with a "I don't know if I can get it back." She also said, in her soul she thinks it's too late for us. W always said she thinks.


Did you ever say something to encourage her to believe you two COULD be good again?

Doesn't matter though... I don't believe 100% of what she says.

Then she left to go to work. She said "thank you for talking" and smiled her tired smile.

I said "yeah, " and walked away.

So I wrote a book again. I am so tired.

What a day. I feel good about it. Would love to know what you think. If you're where I am, I hope you learned something. You don't have to play your WAS's game. Listen to the advice here.
---

[HPoirot]

Hello 25. Thank you so much for your post. I really value your advice and what you're talking about is exactly where I feel most stuck.

Hmm, I don't get that^^ feeling from what you said, she said she wanted. She SAID she wanted reasons to fight for the marriage and I sure wish you had then and there, given that to her. Like some belief that YOU Would do your work too, not just all on her.

Let's not forget the A you had, that she still does not know about...

...

At one point she said "I should just stay and fix the M." She said that 4 times in a row. Of course she said it in a resigned voice.


Why didn't you affirm this at all? Seriously....why? Dig deep and see what role, if any, pride played.

You're right... there have been times in our sitch were it seems like I could give her reasons or affirm what she's saying. She does seem to be asking me to lead. I'm focused, though, on listening and validating her. Many times in our talk I wanted to tell her "yes, we can do exactly what you're saying. We can do it!" A couple times I did cheer us on but not loudly over her words. She says she feels deep in her soul it's too late for us. At the same time, she says we have a bond and she loves me and I'm her #1 priority. I am torn and confused between just taking her by the hand and leading her when she gives me an opening and just validating everything she says she feels so she can feel heard and accepted by me.

She also said things like she can't give me what I want. I asked her what she thinks I want. She said to say I want to fix the M. I admitted... of course I would love you to say that. But I know you don't feel that way.


she is obviously conflicted as her above comments show. Why confirm the negatives like how she "does not love" you AND then this, "I know you don't feel that way". Part of her does!

Again you are right. I was not aware I was confirming negatives here. I was using her words to show I was hearing her. This is a skill I want to learn... to validate her without agreeing with her or confirming her negatives while speaking with her under pressure. I'm careful not to appear like I am convincing her of anything. One of her big complains in all her life is not being heard or valued. I'm working to show her I hear and value her and see I can do much better without agreeing with her negatives.

She mentioned a previous EA that was just for conversation with a friend from high school. She mentioned that she doesn't know OM... he's just a stranger and she just wants to feel like a woman and get her needs met.

What are those needs, or did you ask? Do you feel you know them?

I do feel I know them after all our talks. Most of all she wants the emotional connection. She said if we had the life we have now with an emotional connection that she would want that. Someone to hear her, value her, and make her feel safe through consistency of character. She also wants an interesting life... a man who is challenging. I did not think to ask her about that here. I noticed she can tell when I'm fishing for info on what I can do for her to feel love for me and that will irritate her and disrupt her talking. She'll say "I'm not going to get into that."

IF the marriage ends, you do know it's not BECAUSE of OM. You are being punitive and hypocritical here. You had an affair and if I recall right, YOU did not end it, OW did.

Unlike your w, you were not honest about it. So now you are "never" going to be friends with her if she remains honest and sees OM and the m ends. EVEN though you also said you know he's "just the symptom and Not the cause".

Does this really ring true and honest and right to you? All of it? Guess we can disagree. Because I really do. I'm open to hearing the reasoning behind all these conditions you give her but which were NOT given to you, and yet you still returned to the m.

Yes, I know none of this is because of OM. Yes I fear I am being punitive. My A fizzled out in time because I did not pursue it. After our initial time together, my OW made efforts to get close to my location. (she lived overseas at the time.) The couple times she did, I did not go to see her in return. Time went by, we fell out of touch, and the A died. I did, though, talk at length with my W about OW. Everything except the A. My W was not honest about her A... a stranger that she never mentioned meeting. I had to snoop and confront her and even after she continued lying about him. That I horribly allowed to fuel my anger and push her away with boundaries.

And that, 25, is where I'm so confused and afraid. I have seen other sitches were the LBH firmly and lovingly communicated to the WAW that he was not tolerating the A. That he would leave if it continued because he respected himself too much to tolerate it. He made a stand with his changes and a boundary that showed he cared about himself and the M and that he wanted his wife was willing to fight for her.

One of the complaints my W has is I let her stay in her hometown, away from me, for months a few years ago. When she asked if I wanted her to come home, I said she should stay. I thought I was being supportive letting her stay with her mother and family for a while. She took it as I couldn't care less if she stays or go. Once, years ago, she said she was afraid that is she wasn't around I wouldn't care. That's were I'm working from now... taking a stand against OM and her A partially to show her that I DO CARE if she stays or goes. I want her. I want our marriage.

Then I listen to your words about empathy and I like them. I know they are right. I saw, from the W discussion yesterday and all other discussions like them that her and I do have beautiful moments. It happens when she feels heard and accepted. I do not want to push her away. I want to hold her and tell her I understand. That I trust her. That I believe her when she says me and our boy are her number 1 priority. I saw how upset she was this morning when I pulled back after our connection yesterday. I know she felt punished and judged. But How can this work if I'm friendly H who sits back and lets an OM come into his M without protest and consequences? How can she trust me with her life and her son if she sees me as the sort of man who appeases her as an A goes on?

I don't know how to bridge leading her like she seems to want with all her questions and openings and asking me for feedback with showing her empathy. I know OM is not the issue ... but I'm to just sit back and understand while this man wines and dines and grows closer to my W which makes her happy, confused, and causes her suffering?

I want to encourage her all day long. I want her in my bed talking with me. I want to see her laugh and smile at me. We've had some nice bittersweet beautiful moments and some awful awful moments. It seems when I frustrate her by standing up for myself, she gets mad and apologizes and eventually responds positively to that. And when I'm understanding and validating and listening, she responds to that too. She's noticed all my changes and likes them. I have all these positives but they're all over the place. I'm not being coherent and consistent. I can do this for months... years... as long as it takes... if I can be consistent and coherent.

How can I pull what you 25 say about empathy and what Starsky/Wonka/Sandi say about being a decisive, attractive, non tolerating of crap behavior man?

How can I pull back and show her I won't tolerate her OM, I believe in and want to renew our M, and show her the love and empathy I have for her all at once?

I am really in great pain on this question. I feel, if I can get the above right and do it consistently when interacting with W, then I will be a man she can fall in love with again. I will be better me.

Thank you again so much 25. You are a wonderful person.

[Vanilla]

HP

Your A with OW, your W may know more than you think she does or she may suspect.

I am not quite sure how to express this other than the elephant in the room.

It may be something that ultimately you have to acknowledge. 25 is very wise in this.

Peace
Calm
Vanilla

[HPoirot]

HP

Your A with OW, your W may know more than you think she does or she may suspect.

I am not quite sure how to express this other than the elephant in the room.

It may be something that ultimately you have to acknowledge. 25 is very wise in this.

Peace
Calm
Vanilla

Yes my W certainly knows I was not over my OW (a friend I grew up with and had a romance with as a very young man) many years ago. My W teased me after I got back from seeing her... "I know you kissed her. If I were you I would have slept with her." I never said my OW was my epic love. My W, though, is a romantic. From my talking to my W about my OW and the love we had as youngsters... my W started to say she's my "one who got away." Just from how I described her. It was my fault for bringing her memory into our M. My W is extremely empathic. So much so she fears she gives too much to others.. that she loses herself in others. She gave a lot of herself to me... carried and cared for me when I was depressed. She knows me better than I know myself. I have said to my W a couple times during this sitch... "considering what happened between me on OW, I was the last one to talk" when we discussed my W's A. My W has also brought my OW up a couple times to say she is really the one for me... someone like me who could make me happy. She knows how I felt about OW. I would not be at all surprised if my W knew the rest.

[HPoirot]

Looks like my W will save me the trouble of kicking her out of my bed tonight...

We just had the one bad face to face interaction this morning. The stomping and the separation threat. The screaming over the phone. Me hanging up on her. She later apologized and sent me 2 texts. I eventually did respond. She came home tonight. Her back was really hurting her. She looked miserable. I made peace with her a little... warmly welcomed her. She had found a book I was looking for. I sincerely thanked her. She brightened a little. She snapped at our son getting him ready for bed. She now has the couch set up with her blanket and pillow and is watching her Good Wife show.

Sometimes I'm so sure I'm on the right track. Just keep her engaged. Validate. Listen. Light conversation. Make her laugh. Then I snooped. Got mad. Gave her my drop OM or our friendship boundary. Gave her my drop OM or no MC boundary. Connected with her by showing her empathy while telling her we're not friends. Had a beautiful bittersweet moment. Pulled way away from her making her angry. Left the house all day. And now I'm here. In a hole.

I can find the right way to get this back on track. If I knew what back on track looked like now. What is my goal everyday now? To pull back. Just enough so she's not angry and hurt? I don't know.

I'm tired.

I didn't have the heart tonight to tell her she was right about not sleeping in our bed anyway.

I'm not seeing the positives right now. I took my sleeping pills. I'm sure W took hers. I will go to sleep. Things will look better in the morning.

What can I do tomorrow to climb out of this hole? Thank you. Good night.

[Maybell]

Go back to the books. STUDY the goals chapter. Study the cheeseless tunnel chapter. Figure out one mode of behavior, evaluate, and adjust accordingly. The way I'm reading you you're trying all the options at once. That won't work. You've got to be more consistent or your W will never know what she's getting when she's dealing with you.

What are your priorities?