Everyone was right...especially 25yrsmlc..

[Jefe]

Alcohol is serious stuff. It will destroy families in the blink of an eye. I know. It may have just destroyed mine.

[25yearsmlc]

I just went back and spent a great amount of time re-reading thread after thread about my situation from 4 years ago.
25yrsmlc spent a lot of time commenting on my posts. I can see where I did not listen.
There were things I did right did but I see now my greatest mistake...
I let H come home without doing HIS work first. I worked a lot on myself while my H was living with OW for 8 months...bible studies, counseling, GAL, etc.
H really came back suddenly after mentioning many times he was miserable and unhappy living with OW. I think I may have been so happy i didn't want to wreck anything by demanding too much.

You would not have been demanding "too much". Instead you demanded too little and he ran with it...but I'm not trying to rub your nose in my past predictions.

I'm just trying to get you to see that the ball was in his court and hey, he dropped the ball and isn't chasing after to go get it. (Does that metaphor work?) I want to express myself precisely.

We went to addiction bible study group and church. That was it. He would not go to counseling I or Couple. He thinks counseling is a joke. Would also not address his issues with drinking...even at my request. I prayed and prayed this would work out.

There was much remorse on H's part along with several apologies and being transparent. We spent a lot of time in discussions and went to 3 marriage weekends.

Things have been good...not easy but good. There have been times H would come home and I would notice he had been drinking and probably lying about where he was. We would talk the next day and I would explain why this was a trigger for me and remind of all the nights I waited for him to come home and he wouldn't etc.

You reminded him of your pain and the triggers and, and....and???

(Oh, & not to mention that married men don't go to bars alone and drink too much, let alone not come home, but I digress) SO you told him how You felt...

AND he kept on doing it anyhow. You matter to him, I'm sure.

But there is something else more important to him and that is a simple, painful, reality.

Anyway...about a month ago..H started coming late and smelling like alcohol more often then not. Then a few nights of not coming home at all. Finally, I had to see for myself....
there he was back at the bar where it all began...

I get it.

He was there drinking/drunk and OW was working...he would not even look at me as I tapped him on the shoulder. I finally left because I was so embarressed and humiliated.


OUCH...that's all I can say. The part where he wouldn't look at you AND then didn't come home, wow. I mean, Really, what's there to say??

That night he didn't come home...but the next day he does says he sorry and goes to bed. WOW! Thats all I got.

I asked the next day if he was in contact with OW... he claims no.


Just curious, why bother asking him if he's with her? In fact, why bother asking him anything? Seriously. What specifically are you expecting him to tell you?

Fast forward two weeks I get a hold of his phone and YES he has had contact with her. I confront-he denies and I AM DONE!

I really cant go through this again. the lies, the drinking and the OW.


Someone told me once I was THE "DB Queen/Warrior" and I am sure they meant it as a compliment. But the thing is, for ME

DBing was a once in a life time deal. Sure, there are parts of it I practice everyday and I am grateful for that... TRULY!

But to go thru the whole "ordeal" and DRAMA of that crap again, after what I've been through already? No, NO I could not do it again. IT's not in me.

It'd be so obvious that rather than some fling or MLC or weird EVENT, what my h would be doing if it were repeated, would clearly be a PATTERN of his, and a CHOICE.

IN your situation, I'm not sure your h EVER really changed at all. IF he did, he has clearly backslid and based on his lack of remorse and zero motivation to do a thing about it (refusing to go to counseling is refusing to change. Period. I mean it. His biggest FEAR, (at this time), is not losing you; its losing the booze.

I say all this^^ for 2 reasons. I completely understand the inability to DB twice. Like those who can recover from an affair in their marriage often say, "hey thats a once in a lifetime deal, you got your 2nd chance and there are no more" --I get it....b/c WE can't take it again!! We used up our reserves. I'd feel the same way if h decided "just to visit Alaska again..." I'd say "you can have it!"

I know I'd leave, And I would not look back. Life is too damn short to spend in regrets and feeling trapped.

AND perhaps more importantly, it becomes increasingly clear that this is a PATTERN for Your h.

He's at least a problem drinker, if not an outright alcoholic. He's in major denial about it. He MIGHT not even be at a place where he can admit he does not want to quit drinking but he'd like to want to quit...


But See, I don't think your h is there^^ either. I think he believes HIS drinking is mandatory to HIS "happiness", more so than being married OR faithful to you.

To me that^^ is beyond dispute. He cannot claim to want to be married to YOU and
also get drunk, NOT come home AND be around OW.

SIGH

This is not complicated.
I know it hurts, I know it's hard, but it's not complex. Your h drinks too much and shows zero interest in changing that. He drinks in a maritally dangerous way, and has no interest in changing that either. He's probably having another affair or will soon and even if he isn't, he isn't concerned about you thinking he is. No transparency and no effort and barely an apology...you know what's going on.

It sukks to know but you DO know...and you know what to do. That's why you are stuck, b/c it's a HARD choice to make. But I don't see another option AND besides, I also have come to believe that for most LBSers, not all but most (and you are among them)

life without a spouse like your h, is easier in the short AND Long run, than sticking it out with the drama of an unrepentant cheating drinker...


Your choice is clear, but still painful. I know...and I'm sorry.

I just see no other [option for you. IF there is a chance your h can REALLY CHANGE, and I am not saying there is much of one, but I know the only way he would change in the way you need him to change, would be for HIM TO REALIZE

1) that losing you is the MOST Unacceptable thing that could happen

and therefore

2) HE is willing to do what HE needs to do to earn his way back into your heart. Counselling is a must, no more drinking---and he'll need professional help to quit, as you probably know.

So if he refuses to get help for that, then good luck with him stopping the alcohol and the OW cold turkey. IN other words,

his refusal to go to ANY form of counseling is his way of saying "I want to drink AND be married to you. BUT IF I MUST choose between the two...it won't be you."

Do you WANT To live the rest of your life knowing^^^ that??

If I'm right, then what is there left to talk about?




I really don't want to D but he once again says HE doens't want to get divorced, wants his life back. I asked what are you willing to do this time...He said he would rather gouge his eyes out than go to counseling...so I guess I am done.

I don't know how this could ever improve without it. He does not want to know the reason why he did it...he even says he doesn't know.
( I know I already started another thread..sorry)

I think you are seeking answers that don't exist. Meaning, what answer could exist that would ease your mind or pain?

He has a problem he does not understand OR want to repair. He doesn't even care to understand it! it's not about you; it's about him. He has a problem that he has had for a long time and he has NOT fixed it...and does not want to.

Period. What is there to say now? In a way, you have a lot of clarity here. The choice is a hard one but it's still a simple, obvious one....sorry, but that's how I see it and hey, you did ask...




So, I am much stronger this time. I did the work.. Even after we R'd. I will be okay. I never wanted this though....i fought tooth and nail last time to save our marriage...now its his turn I believe.

OF course it's his turn. You already did your thing and have nothing left to deal with as long as he's around OW and drinking AND not working on a thing....

so, he does not want a turn. Get it? HE IS DONE...to HIM, "trying" means Not getting a divorce...

Assume that he won't do the work and move on. He knows what he'd need to do and how to reach you, if he ever wants to make a different choice.

I don't recommend you wait for him to make that choice. IT's fine to have hope, but don't have any expectations. And seriously, do move on.

If he gets his act together, you can take him back if/when you see him doing the work he should have done 4 years ago...and if not, you'll be in a better place -- that much faster by moving on now.

Make sense? Sorry but you asked me for feedback, and that's my take on it.

[25yearsmlc]

I know..one minute I think that the other minute I feel like I am giving him a free pass rather than call it like it is...a man who decides he just doesn't want to be married anymore or rarely see his kids.

I'm an al anon "grad", and my dad was a brilliant, well educated alcoholic. It's not the worst thing to be or say.

But in your h's case it's obvious that he is an alcoholic. In a few years, I think you will shake your head at even questioning that now.

Sorry to sound smug or snarky. I simply cannot believe this 1) is even debatable NOW, and OR

2) that it matters what label you attach to it. What possible difference does it make vis a vis YOUR course of action?

I think you have the mistaken notion that "If he's an alcoholic' then -- then You can't have expectations of decency from him. Like he gets a free pass but that's just not true. HIs behavior is unacceptable, no matter what the cause is.

If he had diabetes and refused his insulin and then insisted on driving while he was entering a diabetic coma, I would not give him a free pass. I'd get the he11 out of the car.

I think I recall more of our discussions from 4 years ago now, and where we disagreed.

If you want to debate the terminology, all I can say is, "Why?" What is the point?

Your h makes bad choices NOT b/c he believes they are bad. But his intent is irrelevant!
It takes real WORK to make smarter choices and he does not want to do that work.

He KNOWS every single counselor he'd see, and every healthy woman he'd meet is going to have at least one request of him, = Do NOT Drink.

and he can't/won't abide by that. And the rest of the cards fall where they fall for whatever reason...

You think it's so hard for the kids to go thru divorce and it won't be easy. But that question implies that the alternatvie choice is you all living together in a sober happy home.

But that's NOT the choice "offered" to you. Your choice is to put up with more of this garbage (IF he'll even "allow" you to do that) OR divorcing and living in a sober home, with at least the chance of having a healthy R down the road with a sober man, and NO more drama/pain from him and no more stomach aches wondering where he is OR if he's coming home....

I lived in my parents' home and witnessed their 40 year marriage with my dad never quitting the booze. I wish they'd gotten a divorce b/c I simply cannot believe that in the long run, it would have been harder than what we went through with his drinking.

In any case, since your h is NOT asking you to stick around,

your challenge is to get through this with as little drama as possible. There is not a lot to discuss or obsess over, is there? And Life is too short to spend our time asking questions without good answers. A HUGE regret I have is how much time I wasted and won't ever get back, asking WHY my h was doing/thinking/feeling whatever he was doing/thinking/feeling.


IF he's telling you to move on, dont' wait for another invitation to do so. But I'd sure show him what moving on looks like and please, take care of yourself. Really.

Hug your kids and love them through this. Keep on keeping on...

this will pass and you WILL be happy again, and loved again, and you'll laugh again. IN TIME...

[lifejustgothard2]

25yearsmlc...thank you for your input...it really is hard and I am heartbroken hence the questions...

He did tell me to move on and that is painful. And I struggle with that we are not worth the effort...even more so if the alcohol is what he is choosing first.

There is nothing left to ponder...I moved out. The kids and I are safe...no more of H coming home drunk or late or not at all.

It is a chaos free house...quiet and peaceful. I filed for D ...he should have received his papers today.

I know it is the right thing to do and every day it gets a little easier. He fooled us all. I was betrayed twice.

I just needed some reassurance, thank you

[lifejustgothard2]

and , yes I do realize and hear that he has made it very clear that He is not trying to keep me from leaving or save the marriage or even come up with a good excuse as to why he did what he did AGAIN! Nothing... He is giving me nothing and that is where the my hurt is coming from.
It is truly an awful feeling ...knowing someone for 23 years and they will let you walk out of their lives without a fight.
I wouldn't wish it upon my worst enemy.

[Maybell]

Ggrass on devotee's thread said it wasn't the person she was dealing with, it was the alcohol. Does it help to think that's what's happened here? That your H is so lost and so hurting -- with his OWN stuff, nothing to do with yours -- and has so little faith in himself that he put alcohol in the drivers seat. I hope he gets better soon. I'm glad you're protecting your family.

[25yearsmlc]

and , yes I do realize and hear that he has made it very clear that He is not trying to keep me from leaving or save the marriage or even come up with a good excuse as to why he did what he did AGAIN! Nothing... He is giving me nothing and that is where the my hurt is coming from.
It is truly an awful feeling ...knowing someone for 23 years and they will let you walk out of their lives without a fight.
I wouldn't wish it upon my worst enemy.

I used to believe my dad would quit drinking IF ONLY WE, his kids/my mom, were better. Better grades, better behaved, better church goers, etc. As a child, I felt WE were at fault somehow. I'd cringe when my mom would question my dad about his drinking or what he'd done with the money. I blamed HER at times for "stirring things up"...

Later, I believed he simply did not love us enough. If he did, why wouldn't he stop drinking?

He woke up on weekend days countless times, to discover something horrible he'd done the night before. And yet even his shame and remorse did NOT get him to stop.

(How many times would YOU have to awaken to see a bruise on your child's face, or another dent in the car, to realize that booze and you were NOT friends? That you are NOT a "Hilarious drunk" or "fun to party with", but actually become a real jerk or pass out when you drink...how often would YOU have to experience that before you'd say "enough"??)


IT has taken me decades to learn that WE are not at all relevant to his choices or his disease.

There were times he CHOSE to drink even after he'd gotten through the DTs and chronic insomnia that comes from it...No "physical cravings" were happening but he'd relapse. It boggled my mind. IT confused me b/c I thought I was a factor in his alcoholism but turns out, I wasn't.

It was not about US. As hard as it this sounds, you must learn that you are NOT factors in his choice to drink (except for the possibility that drinking eases his shame). You have to stop taking this personally.

Easier said than done, I know. You think he is giving you up without a fight but in his eyes, the fight has already been lost. And he's right.

I wonder whether your ego is confusing you here too.

He's been drinking too much for awhile now. And you didn't leave him.
Now HE has chosen to leave the marriage again. I know that hurts. But if you learned that he was not with OW on his binges, that he'd go to pass out and not come home for a few days, wanting NO questions asked...

would your feelings be very different?

IF he said he wanted to stay married BUT that he was not going to follow any of your requests and wanted no boundaries placed...would you still stay married under those conditions?

I'm asking you whether you'd stay married to him IF he did not want out of the marriage-- but no other factor changed... IF so, I hope you'll discuss that with your own counselor b/c that's not a very healthy choice on your end, is it?
Dig deep here...because
isn't that pretty much what has been going on, til recently? Til you confirmed HER existence, the rest was going to be complained about BUT tolerated by you, correct? Reflect on that for a minute or two...(but don't beat yourself up about it).


Moving on... here is what you KNOW:

1) He drinks way too much. He's either an "alcoholic" or a "Problem drinker",
(IMO, it's Not terribly crucial to label him one way or the other),

AND

2) He doesn't come home sometimes, & he won't change that-

AND

3) he appears "involved" with an OW,

AND

4) He will Not have ANY boundaries/transparencies placed on his behavior;

AND

5) He says/acts as if He wants out of the marriage.


This ^^^ is what you KNOW.


So your course of action is clear.
1) Protect you & your children financially & legally (see a lawyer asap)

AND

2) Get Emotional/psychological support/help for you & your kids.

Try taking the kids to Al Anon with you. There's an "Al A Teen" program worth looking into. I got something out of it and that was decades ago. There might be a program now for younger kids, as well. Enroll them in IC. You may want to join a support group too.

In sum, this is not about you, except as it relates to your choosing him as a partner. You may want to look into that, and see if some co-dependency issues or the "rescue the bad guy" habits exist.

I'm curious. Was your own dad emotionally unavailable, and or a problem drinker too? Is there a pattern in YOUR life for choosing men who are hard to love?

Okay, enough. I am done with the digression. We know that-

Marriage to your h is not an option now.

Use this^^ clarity to your advantage, by spending NO more time on cheese less tunnels.

Begin/continue the GAL Detachment program asap.


You know HOW, so get your old notes out and begin again.

Try not to waste a lot of time thinking you wasted a lot of time.

You did your best with the information you had at the time. Now you have MORE information and you can make a better decision.

I Hope you'll soon see that the possibility for a better, happier & more sane life,
is now MORE likely.

Finally, please don't be offended, but I say your h has done you a favor. In time, you will probably agree. If you choose to see the glass as half full instead of half empty, you'll see that you have the rest of your life to create the happy fulfilling life you want and deserve, as will your children.

You can do this.

((( )))

[lifejustgothard2]

25...thank you for the reply...it probably is my ego...I don't know. I guess a small part of me feels I could have somehow prevented all of this. If I had never mentioned the triggers, if I had only blah blah blah. Yes, I know it is ridiculous but that is how I am. This is so out of H's character in my mind or has he always been this man??
One question I have about your post was where you said the "but in his eyes the fight has already been lost, and he is right." What do you mean?
I have already filed, and moved out with the kids. He goes days and days without seeing them. When this all hit the fan he told me that I "overeacted" when I saw him at the bar. It is like he plants these seeds in my head just to give me a little doubt.

Just finding him at the bar was enough for me to know I was done. For good.
Thanks.

[25yearsmlc]

25...thank you for the reply...it probably is my ego...I don't know. I guess a small part of me feels I could have somehow prevented all of this. If I had never mentioned the triggers, if I had only blah blah blah. Yes, I know it is ridiculous but that is how I am. This is so out of H's character in my mind or has he always been this man??

I'm not sure what's new or "out of character" for him. I don't mean to sound snarky, but I'm genuinely puzzled by that^^ statement. He did this years ago (your first time here) and ignored you and the kids for several months If I recall it right. And he was very depressed, correct?

You two reconciled but did Not restore the marriage. That's b/c no Retrovaille or serious IC was done and if I recall, you reconciled without Him actually processing what had occurred, NOT repairing or resolving his issues in any deep way...most or all of the "changes" were superficial sounding to me.

I think THIS^^ is who he is, i.e,. a chronically lost person who has lost his battle with the bottle and is mostly working on accepting that about himself. Hence the request that you "move on".

This way, he does not have to to be reminded of the costs of the lost battle, b/c God forbid he have to fight again....its easier to HIM, to surrender and go with the flow.



One question I have about your post was where you said the "but in his eyes the fight has already been lost, and he is right." What do you mean?

See above


I have already filed, and moved out with the kids. He goes days and days without seeing them.

same as before, yes?

When this all hit the fan he told me that I "overeacted" when I saw him at the bar. It is like he plants these seeds in my head just to give me a little doubt.


Really? Where? To ME, that is not a seed planted. It's just a tad LESS than saying "Sure, divorce me."

That is NOT something to hang onto Life2. Seriously, you have to see that you are grasping at the thinnest of straws. And he's NOT asking you to come back or even to stop the divorce! What does that tell you?

I know it's hard to hear and face, and I'm so sorry.

But really this^^^ IS a gift of clarity for you. There is no room for second guessing and self doubt. He wants out. He acts like it and he says it. And the boundaries he refuses to place on himself make it clear that he's just not that into being married to you...

Since I don't believe that you are a hard person to love, I can only believe that this isn't very much about you. It impacts you, a lot. I know that. But saying it's about you is just like saying it's about the kids. Did THEY wrong him? No they did not and yet he's ignoring them too.

You don't want them to wrack their brains wondering what THEY did to "cause" him to leave or how he can "not love them enough" to stay...

Yet that^^ is precisely what you are spending your mental/emotional energy doing.

Don't. Don't model that for them and don't do it to yourself. You really do need to stop that b/c its part of what got you back here in the first place. An inappropriate sense of your role in his choices.

Please answer those questions I asked about your dad and your childhood okay? I think you are avoiding it and that's odd, don't you think?



Just finding him at the bar was enough for me to know I was done. For good.
Thanks.

[lifejustgothard2]

Hello...my father never drank. We did not have alcohol in the house. He may have been a "workaholic". He provided well for his family and spent a lot of time with us during the winters when his work slowed.

I get it...I truly do...he wants out!! I know. I get it and it is clear. I gave him what he wanted. The kids and I moved out and D is in process.

Just for the record...we did go to 3 intense marriage sessions in the 4 years he was home. Pretty sure similar to Retroville.

Anyway, it just hurts and I am honestly just looking for someone to tell me its not my fault. I was a good wife and a great mom. I worked, kept the house always had a hot meal waiting, etc etc Just like many other women.

It is in my head that if I wasn't enough for HIM I will never be enough for another man if there were ever to be one. Like there is something wrong with me. In my head I know I deserve better but my heart isn't there. I still love him. And If you knew him you would be as shocked as the rest of us. He seemed like a different man the first few years he was back but yes, he back slid. Quit doing the work.

Anyway, it is embarrassing to type some of this. I sound pathetic. Some days are better. But, really I do know life is too short and I want to enjoy it with my kids and friends and not wonder about the crap anymore. Where he is who is he with. I do want to know he will be miserable though.

Anyway, off to church we go