Busting this Divorce - Separating

[HPoirot]

My First Thread

My Second Thread

My W asked me today if I still want MC. I said, no mc unless your A ends. She said she thinks separating is best like she said all along. I said I will not stand in your way as I've said many times and that I will talk.

Now I'm here with her text response... "Separating doesn't mean we don't work together or go to counseling."

Didn't I just tell her no counseling under A circumstances?

I'm feeling frustrated and not very hopeful. Even so, I feel like I did the right thing and I feel very fortunate to have the support here. Just having faith. I want my marriage be renewed and grow strong and beautiful from this. This is easily the hardest thing I've ever done.

Now she texts me... "And I don't want to do anything until we are better financially. We don't have to move right away. We need to support each other's endeavors... it's our boy's future. So school tuition and back taxes are paramount. I am committed to supporting our work to manage all of these issues. And to supporting you and your new business."

All this goodness and support while she goes off with OM now and then. This is still a tough pill. A tough pill. She does not know I saw some of their email exchanges. Does not know I know they meet. Does not know I can finish OM's career with one email. But all that is my problem that I created for myself.

I want to save this marriage somehow. I want my wife to love me again. I want the kind of life that she wants... full of passion and intimacy and happiness.

That is not my life now. This sitch is my life now. Head down then.

I guess I have to validate what she said somehow. What to say? I guess at some point I need to be able to DB speak for myself.

[Starsky309]

I haven't followed your sitch recently, but if that doesn't work for you, I suggest you respond "I"m sorry, that doesn't work for me. I think we each have different ideas of what 'supporting each other' looks like, but with the common goal of doing what's best for S11, always. We'll talk more about this all in the weeks ahead, I'm sure -- gotta run."

[Wonka]

HP,

You still can save your M if you follow advice given and stick to general DBing principles.

You can respond to W:

"Thank you for sharing your thoughts. I think it's best to hold off on texting until you get back and then we can discuss some of the issues you raised. You are correct that our focus needs to be on our son. Again, thanks."

See? You can keep it simple and to the point without validating or agreeing to W's POV.

[Wonka]

I haven't followed your sitch recently, but if that doesn't work for you, I suggest you respond "I"m sorry, that doesn't work for me. I think we each have different ideas of what 'supporting each other' looks like, but with the common goal of doing what's best for S11, always. We'll talk more about this all in the weeks ahead, I'm sure -- gotta run."

Hey I love you, Starsky. But I disagree a bit with the bolded section. The goal is not to have the communications escalate. It is important that HP nip the potential in the bud and defuse it quickly. I am generally not a fan of having a serious "talk" through texting.

It is paramount that things don't get out of hand through texting and leave a very bad feeling in W's mouth which will only serve to reinforce her view of why separation is best. Don't give W any more ammo. Short & simple.

In fact, this is a crucial time for HP to use the time apart to get back to his center and not think about W while she's away on her trip. I mean, HP is all wound up as it is.

[HPoirot]

Thank you Starsky and Wonka. I am of course glad she not running away leaving us in financial ruin. I am glad she's making a show at responsibility. But you're right Starsky... NONE OF THIS WORKS FOR ME! Trying to find the balance between DBing and feeling like a doormat is still tough for me. I prefer your words because they are true for me.

Even so, my experience so far has shown me that I must dial myself way back if I'm to have a chance. Her cooperation talk does make me angry... but I can see the positives in her texts in regard to my goal if I try to. I do want her to know how incredibly disappointed in her I feel and I do VERY MUCH want her A to end ESPECIALLY since I'm living here with her. Even so, I can't be critical of her b/c every time I even hint at an attack she threatens to fly away.

So, I'm going to back off for now to do Wonka's approach. I'm sure she never expected me to act in any of the unexpected ways I've acted since DBing. That and this whole thing has been much easier on me mentally. I may have ended up in jail if I'd done this myself. So, I want to keep this up b/c I have faith in DB even though I can't yet see how this works from here.

And I have to accept that she will not give this OM up for our family. She's from a very broken home too. Told me how terrible that was for her. Did not forgive her father for leaving for over 20 years. And now she's doing it. Even so, that's the way it is for everyone in the same boat here. Just have to trust the DB approach to ending it.

So thank you Wonka. I'll close this down with your text. Let's see what happens.

[Wonka]

Yeah, you don't want to go all Dawgy on the OM. Perish that thought!!!

[MrBond]

"Just have to trust the DB approach to ending it. "

There's one important thing you need to understand. There is no "DB approach". DBing means to do what works. Even if you didn't have the DB book, you should be doing that any way. DB is not a ploy. It's building yourself back up after the devastating news of your M potentially ending and learning how to understand your W and where she's coming from.

It still is up to YOU to determine what to do and when to do it.

[Starsky309]

Hey I love you, Starsky. But I disagree a bit with the bolded section. The goal is not to have the communications escalate. It is important that HP nip the potential in the bud and defuse it quickly. I am generally not a fan of having a serious "talk" through texting.

You're probably right, Wonka. Right message, wrong time and method of communication.

[25yearsmlc]

HP

This post of mine was on your earlier thread....here goes.

Originally Posted By: HPoirot

She calls to check up on me. I tell her thanks for that and tell her I'm going back to work and hang up.

I did the worst backslide today. All that's left to do now is for me to really try to move on and be my best. I don't want to but she doesn't want to be here.

Is there any way I can salvage this?


You said it yourself ^^above. The only way to salvage this is to move on and become your best self.

IF you two are destined to reconcile, I'd expect this^^ to have to happen. I did not think she'd "wake up" on her own without exploring her options. I assumed she would need to discover for herself that the grass is greener where you water it most.

Meaning, where you put the energy is where you tend to get the best results.

Neither of you put enough into THIS marriage or relationship, and in your case you had a previous affair with your "epic love".

Yet somehow you still want to be married to THIS woman. Right?

So why is it impossible for you to imagine her having the same experience/discovery on her end?

Is it b/c down deep you fear that when she's with OM, she prefers him,
whereas when you were with OW, either you did NOT prefer her??

AND OR you didn't have the same chance of "running off" to a new life long R w/OW, as she has with OM.

In any case, your course of action remains the same. So while no one will say this is easy, it's not really complicated. Move forward and become the best YOU that you can be.

Also, work on your tendency to radiate neediness. Forgive me if that stings, but at times you simply reek of being needy. Like you have to have someone, (maybe anyone), on your arm, and or paying attention to you

or you can't/won't feel good about yourself. Like your self esteem comes from others and not yourself.

Be a stronger man and OWN your self esteem. It never did belong to anyone else, you were always in charge of it, same as your happiness.

It always was YOUR JOB to make yourself happy...let your son learn that for himself, from you. Model that for him.


And don't keep at your wife for being so unfair to you. I know it stinks that she's having an affair, but you MUST remember that you did the same thing to her.

I'm not suggesting, necessarily, that you go & tell her everything about your past and the OW in your life from before...

But You keep letting your w twist on the vine of guilt and shame, while you know in your heart and head that you did the same dang thing to her awhile back.

How can you foster her shame, & not feel hypocritical?

Why not assume she is a on a journey like you were, and that she will discover the same truth that you did, i.e., that you two should be together raising your son together and growing old, together?

IF you believe she will not choose you or your marriage over OM, can you tell us why that is so?

And then, work on those^^ reasons so they are not valid anymore. Meaning, if you think she'll choose OM b/c he's kinder and a better listener, then YOU work on being kinder and a better listener, not so you "can compete w/OM", but so you can improve as a man b/c you want to...

Make sense?
_____________________

[25yearsmlc]

PS


Just so I'm clear, is this your only thread now? (I keep checking my other posts and at least 3 are with you.)

I think it's very preferable to stick to one if you can. Much easier to stay current with updates, and not repeat myself or duplicate what others have said.

Thanks.

[Wonka]

25,

HP's other thread is now over 120 posts which will bring out the Lock Monster out of his cave to devour it so he was advised to start a new one (this one).

[GoatGal]

Arrrgggghhhh....

I just replied on your old thread...
Please read it since I *think* I was on a roll...

[GoatGal]

Here's something to brighten your day:

Re-reading through some of what Mrs. HP has been saying, much of it comes off as a frantic back-pedaling maneuver.

That is total mind-reading on my part.
But it kinda sounds like you called her bluff.

Which means the forecast could be partly sunny as far as you're concerned.
All the MORE reason to play your cards right the first time.

Nothing changes, just an awareness that, despite what she SAYS, she's not quite ready to be done---yet.

Just an impression. But she facing the reality of losing you and the life you've built, which may not have really hit home until now.

All the more reason to give HER space as well...to really think things through on her end.

Didn't you say OM was "successful and married"?

If so, one has to wonder if Mrs. HP really thinks a future will pan out for her.
Lots of obstacles there.
The stakes just got a whole lot higher for her.

My H was a young married woman's OM. He APPEARED to be wealthy and successful. He lied to her, used her, and never had any intention of replacing me with her. He got caught, things blew up all around...

But I have no doubt it would have ended anyway for countless reasons. Not the least of which was she wised up to the reality and dumped his a**.

So you are in the Catbird seat, my friend. Whether you know it or not.

You are a known quantity, you are the father of her child.
He is some would-be rescuer who is hardly free to spirit her away to the land of Forever in Luv....

There's a lot that has to happen on his end first.
Don't think W doesn't know this.


So the stakes in this game just got a whole lot higher.

---(G)GGG

[HPoirot]

Yes 25 this is my latest thread. My other thread kept growing as I started this new one. Crazy times.

"Just have to trust the DB approach to ending it. "

There's one important thing you need to understand. There is no "DB approach". DBing means to do what works. Even if you didn't have the DB book, you should be doing that any way. DB is not a ploy. It's building yourself back up after the devastating news of your M potentially ending and learning how to understand your W and where she's coming from.

It still is up to YOU to determine what to do and when to do it.

Yes of course you are right MrBond. Through the last couple days I was more focused on W's reactions and my ploys than on becoming a better me. I do see, though, that I incidentally got in some work on myself... my surprise GAL adventure, my boundary setting attempts, trying to stay calm and not quitting after making a mistake, and better poise dealing with W face to face under stress. Small improvements and I am determined to do more building on myself and more understanding of W.

While it's true that OM is not the cause of the M breakdown, per se, introducing him into a troubled situation as a fix on her end hardly helped things.
And most women would not be walking away from their M unless Fantasy Man was there to cushion the fall.

So yeah. His presence IS significant and cannot be discounted by her.

Hello GG. Again thank you so much for your support in my crisis yesterday. I'm so tired now of OM watch but yes I agree his presence stops any movement of W in my direction. If I bring him up, she just say "he's not the issue" as she did the first day so it's not worth it to do again. Lesson learned. I need to get back to building better me now. I have not worked on my business, not caught up with work, and not got ahead of my financial situation. Being successful here will do more for my mental swagger than my GAL success so far. I must make these happen.

Neither of you put enough into THIS marriage or relationship, and in your case you had a previous affair with your "epic love".

Yet somehow you still want to be married to THIS woman. Right?

So why is it impossible for you to imagine her having the same experience/discovery on her end?

That is an excellent point. I see it would take a lot of confidence in myself and my future either way to simply think this way. That's what better me would think. I'm getting closer to that sometimes when my head is clear and I'm feeling successful. Yes, I can just feel successful more often and then I could just surrender to this idea.

Also, work on your tendency to radiate neediness. Forgive me if that stings, but at times you simply reek of being needy. Like you have to have someone, (maybe anyone), on your arm, and or paying attention to you

or you can't/won't feel good about yourself. Like your self esteem comes from others and not yourself.

No need to apologize... I see very clearly how needy I become in reaction to W's actions and lack of affection. I see how all this has highlighted my need to not be alone again. I fact, I can honestly say now I'm grateful for this experience to work on this. I see for years I thought I was an independent person b/c I thought I didn't need anyone. But it was always my dependence on my W that I was leaning on. She got tired of carrying me and she won't have me again if I can't stand on my own. She even said she was afraid to leave me b/c she felt I would fall apart. So far I have struggled but not fallen apart completely . I can do much much better though... not just hiding my neediness but just not having it.

IF you believe she will not choose you or your marriage over OM, can you tell us why that is so?

I know why... because I believe he is solid in his confidence. I've seen his profile on line... I know who he is. He is successful in his mind and so he is internally happy. One of his first emails to W was his resume. It is impressive. He has a high visibility job. He sent W a recording of a (confidential) financial conference he did to impress her. He knows to show her his belief in his ability and how that shows up in the world. He likely likes himself and believes in what he does. While my resume is impressive and my work affects millions and enables millions for the company I work for, I have not believed in my work. I am not impressed or excited by the results of my work. I do not believe in or am engaged with in the company I work for. Before now, I would work all day lazily in my bathrobe. W said a couple weeks ago, when I was a consultant with my own business (when she met me), I was energetic, interesting, and impactful. She's all about impactful. OM is a Who's Who board member type. A social person. And he's older. W likes men who can be father figure like. She used to call me Daddy when we really ML (I never liked that btw). That's where I must to get back to... for my own mental health. Just being impactful in my thoughts, attitude, appearance, and life. It starts by me making choices to be happy.

[Wonka]

IF you believe she will not choose you or your marriage over OM, can you tell us why that is so?

I know why... because I believe he is solid in his confidence. I've seen his profile on line... I know who he is. He is successful in his mind and so he is internally happy. One of his first emails to W was his resume. It is impressive. He has a high visibility job. He sent W a recording of a (confidential) financial conference he did to impress her. He knows to show her his belief in his ability and how that shows up in the world. He likely likes himself and believes in what he does. While my resume is impressive and my work affects millions and enables millions for the company I work for, I have not believed in my work. I am not impressed or excited by the results of my work. I do not believe in or am engaged with in the company I work for. Before now, I would work all day lazily in my bathrobe. W said a couple weeks ago, when I was a consultant with my own business (when she met me), I was energetic, interesting, and impactful. She's all about impactful. OM is a Who's Who board member type. A social person. And he's older. W likes men who can be father figure like. She used to call me Daddy when we really ML (I never liked that btw). That's where I must to get back to... for my own mental health. Just being impactful in my thoughts, attitude, appearance, and life. It starts by me making choices to be happy.

^^ That is a dangerous path to walk on. Everyone compares themselves against other people and think they're not good enough. What you do in your line of work has a VALUE and isn't measured by one's bank account.

Get your mojo back, HP!

You're really neglecting your work and I would advise you to channel your focus on it. I know, I know. Easier said than done. In the early months after Ms. Wonka walked out, I had a very hard time focusing at work. Just wanted to pass this on to you so you can benefit from our experience.

[GoatGal]

HP,

Don't believe everything you read. My H's resume and job description make him sound like a "Master of the Universe."

Trust me, he is anything but.

Real men with integrity and who are secure in themselves don't need to sneak around and cheat on their wives with another man's wife!

Just sayin'

For example:
My H has been able to talk a good game to impressionable people with poor self-esteem themselves. Like his OW, his "landlady".... his employees. He puts on a mask of self-assurance. But underneath is a scared and damaged little boy. I've met him. He's a mess.

My H, Big Boss though he is, avoids people on his level or above.
Like me.
Like his old friends, like his superiors at work. He surrounds himself with underlings and sycophants. He is clearly uncomfortable in the presence of people who threaten him for whatever reason. If he has to be around them, he finds ways to put them down and diminish them. That is not an attractive quality either.

As for me--apparently I am all kinds of scary!!!
(Independent, smart, decisive, confident. He has said he "prefers" women who are beneath him, who are only fodder for a "shallow relationship". At least sexually. Well, good for them. Count me out!)

So==Don't endow OM with endowments he likely does not possess.

He's probably a messed up guy who is thriving on the thrill/attention of the affair, who may be bored, maybe having a MCL of his own.

He's nothing to write home about, because he is a cheater and a liar.

Put THAT in your pipe and smoke it!

--(G)GGG

[Wonka]

So==Don't endow OM with endowments he likely does not possess.

Don't know...but methinks that's one heckva Freudian slip right there, GGG!!

[HPoirot]

Here's something to brighten your day:

Re-reading through some of what Mrs. HP has been saying, much of it comes off as a frantic back-pedaling maneuver.

That is total mind-reading on my part.
But it kinda sounds like you called her bluff.

Which means the forecast could be partly sunny as far as you're concerned.
All the MORE reason to play your cards right the first time.

Nothing changes, just an awareness that, despite what she SAYS, she's not quite ready to be done---yet.

Just an impression. But she facing the reality of losing you and the life you've built, which may not have really hit home until now.

All the more reason to give HER space as well...to really think things through on her end.

Didn't you say OM was "successful and married"?

If so, one has to wonder if Mrs. HP really thinks a future will pan out for her.
Lots of obstacles there.
The stakes just got a whole lot higher for her.

My H was a young married woman's OM. He APPEARED to be wealthy and successful. He lied to her, used her, and never had any intention of replacing me with her. He got caught, things blew up all around...

But I have no doubt it would have ended anyway for countless reasons. Not the least of which was she wised up to the reality and dumped his a**.

So you are in the Catbird seat, my friend. Whether you know it or not.

You are a known quantity, you are the father of her child.
He is some would-be rescuer who is hardly free to spirit her away to the land of Forever in Luv....

There's a lot that has to happen on his end first.
Don't think W doesn't know this.


So the stakes in this game just got a whole lot higher.

---(G)GGG

I think you could be right here GG. Every time I have taken control in this sitch or agreed with her separation threats, she has backpedaled. She also mentioned, for what it's worth, that OM is not someone she would walk away from her M for. He "makes me feel good" and "puts me in touch with a life a could have" she says. She's really trying to "catch her dreams." Recently, folks in her family have died. She's starting to feel rushed to get somewhere and right now she believes she can't get there with me. She's angry we haven't "built anything." Mind reading.

She can be all over the place but she is committed to S11 who she feels is better with me than with her and she often expresses she doesn't feel like a great mother. She also said, when we were better together last week, that she was feeling like she was "getting sucked in again" and that she considers staying b/c our M was "not the worst thing in the world." More mind reading... but yes, if I can make significant personal improvements for myself while really detaching from her in the 6 or so months we have to live together, then things could get better here. I can see that thank you.

My problem now is, after these last 2 days, I'm treating her a more like the neighbor I only tolerate...

She called earlier. I did not answer. She texted me to have S11 call her. I did.

Now, she just texted me "how is S11?" I didn't answer immediately.

She texts "Can you please just let me know?"

I say ... "Good. Eating stew. Subdued but not sad."

She texts back a note about his meds and "Thanks for replying. I will not text again."

Things like that. Like writing to say how her OM lying is disrespectful and unacceptable (but still doing it). Like going to sleep on the couch yesterday while she has a very painful back injury (for which I saw she now takes prescription pain meds) after my OM boundary back and forth. Like the 20 texts and phone calls after I said we were no longer friends and I would divorce her.

I don't know what all that means and right now I to tired to think about her.

I am grateful to Wonka for his script to stop her calling. I think now she gets the message. actions. actions. actions.

Even so, I would like to get back to the place where I had her laughing and smiling. Filling her love bucket. But now I don't see how that's appropriate or acceptable with her A. So I'm just to be friendly to her but not friends to protect myself and my mental health right? Of course not to be punitive.

Well in any case... I'm thankful for the phone being quiet. Thank you everyone.

[25yearsmlc]

Yes 25 this is my latest thread. My other thread kept growing as I started this new one. Crazy times.

"Just have to trust the DB approach to ending it. "

There's one important thing you need to understand. There is no "DB approach". DBing means to do what works. Even if you didn't have the DB book, you should be doing that any way. DB is not a ploy. It's building yourself back up after the devastating news of your M potentially ending and learning how to understand your W and where she's coming from.

It still is up to YOU to determine what to do and when to do it.

Yes of course you are right MrBond. Through the last couple days I was more focused on W's reactions and my ploys than on becoming a better me. I do see, though, that I incidentally got in some work on myself... my surprise GAL adventure, my boundary setting attempts, trying to stay calm and not quitting after making a mistake, and better poise dealing with W face to face under stress. Small improvements and I am determined to do more building on myself and more understanding of W.

While it's true that OM is not the cause of the M breakdown, per se, introducing him into a troubled situation as a fix on her end hardly helped things.
And most women would not be walking away from their M unless Fantasy Man was there to cushion the fall.

So yeah. His presence IS significant and cannot be discounted by her.

Hello GG. Again thank you so much for your support in my crisis yesterday. I'm so tired now of OM watch but yes I agree his presence stops any movement of W in my direction.

I just read the same comments you read, and then you reached a conclusion that for ME, did Not follow.

IMO, GG did NOT say "his presence stops ANY movement of w in my direction".

IN fact, I read her previous comments a lot differently. Same for Wonka's....don't negate the positives!

Catch yourself being negative, b/c it's not serving you well OR your situation. I urge you to watch yourself for this trait popping up and giving you miscues often.

Don't want to beat a dead horse but this does trouble me b/c it's a pattern of yours that you either are not noticing and or you don't think needs any adjustment.


If I bring him up, she just say "he's not the issue" as she did the first day so it's not worth it to do again. Lesson learned. I need to get back to building better me now.

Even wonder if your wife is telling you what she thinks is true? And might she be right?

YES, While OM made her departure from your marriage, EASIER, (so would a million bucks)

it's NOT the same as being the cause of it AND it's NOT saying that she cannot or will not change her mind until if and when he leaves her. I have seen MANY adulterous spouses choose their spouse and then return. In fact, isn't that what YOU did after your affair?

Did your OW have to leave for you to return? Even if so, its' not fair to apply that to your wife, is it?

--

Neither of you put enough into THIS marriage or relationship, and in your case you had a previous affair with your "epic love".

Yet somehow you still want to be married to THIS woman. Right?

So why is it impossible for you to imagine her having the same experience/discovery on her end?

That is an excellent point. I see it would take a lot of confidence in myself and my future either way to simply think this way. That's what better me would think.

Start BEING the better you and STOP waiting to feel like it. "Externals" can create internals. Meaning, you can engage in new different behaviors that create the emotion you seek INSTEAD of waiting to feel it first. (That's a crap shoot).

Please watch the TED Talk videos on changing how we think/are. One is by Amy Cuddy on "Faking It til You Become It" and the other is something about Positive Psychology by shawn Achor.

Don't poo pooh these^^ b/c they are both profound and empirically supported with great data.

They only last 20 minutes and can be, literally the start of a life change.


I'm getting closer to that sometimes when my head is clear and I'm feeling successful. Yes, I can just feel successful more often and then I could just surrender to this idea.

Also, work on your tendency to radiate neediness. Forgive me if that stings, but at times you simply reek of being needy. Like you have to have someone, (maybe anyone), on your arm, and or paying attention to you

or you can't/won't feel good about yourself. Like your self esteem comes from others and not yourself.

No need to apologize... I see very clearly how needy I become in reaction to W's actions and lack of affection.

If I got this right, this^^ is you blaming her for YOUR self esteem issues and Your neediness. Catch yourself pretending to own something (while in reality you don't.)

I think your wife could have been excellent to you, & you might still have wandered with your OW from your past. Check the double standards at the door.

On one hand, your wife "caused" your low self esteem which indirectly places the blame for your prior affair, on HER as well. However, for HER affair, you played no role and it's all or mostly on her...and the role you may have played is explainable and defensible b/c of other things she did "TO" you, correct?

HP, you can't have it both ways, even though you sure are trying to.
You SEEM to be saying she is to blame for your neediness AND she is to blame for your prior affair, AND she's also to blame for her affair...

What do you believe you are solely responsible for in the m, that isn't good?

I hope you see my point.



I see how all this has highlighted my need to not be alone again. I fact, I can honestly say now I'm grateful for this experience to work on this. I see for years I thought I was an independent person b/c I thought I didn't need anyone. But it was always my dependence on my W that I was leaning on. She got tired of carrying me and she won't have me again if I can't stand on my own. She even said she was afraid to leave me b/c she felt I would fall apart. So far I have struggled but not fallen apart completely . I can do much much better though... not just hiding my neediness but just not having it.

IF you believe she will not choose you or your marriage over OM, can you tell us why that is so?

I know why... because I believe he is solid in his confidence. I've seen his profile on line... I know who he is. He is successful in his mind and so he is internally happy.

Again you are following the belief that if certain External conditions are met in your world, THEN you can be happy. But that's not how life works. Otherwise the poor would be miserable and the wealthier would be happy but that's not the case often.

Let's invert that^^ sentence to read "He's internally happy, so he is successful in his mind". B/C I think that's 1) more likely AND 2) in his control.

If you are counting on external validation ("Success") to validate you "SO" that you can be happy, you are mistaken.

^^^THIS means you are powerless...b/c storms or economic factors or wars or politics will "STOP" you from being happy -- IF you are depending on those other "Conditions precedent" to be happy.

Just BE HAPPY, and you will be. Why? How? B/c you are going to remind yourself that you are healthy and free and a father with healthy children, who is employed and in our freedom loving nation. And those factors just placed YOU in the top 10% of men, globally.




One of his first emails to W was his resume. It is impressive. He has a high visibility job. He sent W a recording of a (confidential) financial conference he did to impress her. He knows to show her his belief in his ability and how that shows up in the world. He likely likes himself and believes in what he does. While my resume is impressive and my work affects millions and enables millions for the company I work for, I have not believed in my work. I am not impressed or excited by the results of my work. I do not believe in or am engaged with in the company I work for. Before now, I would work all day lazily in my bathrobe. W said a couple weeks ago, when I was a consultant with my own business (when she met me), I was energetic, interesting, and impactful. She's all about impactful. OM is a Who's Who board member type. A social person. And he's older. W likes men who can be father figure like. She used to call me Daddy when we really ML (I never liked that btw). That's where I must to get back to... for my own mental health. Just being impactful in my thoughts, attitude, appearance, and life. It starts by me making choices to be happy.

You did a TON of mind reading, and often you threw yourself under the bus here^^^, but you finished strong, with a simple TRUE statement.

Make the choice to be happy. Aristotle said "happiness is a virtue" b/c he knew that we have to make it happen. Happiness AND LOVE do not land in our laps. We must choose to create both in our lives.

[Vanilla]

HP
Sending the "game changer text" required a lot of courage and faith. This seemed to turn a corner for you. Whilst analysis is very important and for the immediate future working on yourself is absolutely vital for yourself this now shows that you are open for change and if you want it this can happen with more ease.

Breathe.

You made a big major shift by sending that text. In 12 steps we call this acceptance of change. A desire to move forward. Crucial to repair and recovery.

A time when HP can feel proud of HP.

Reflections
Vanilla

[HPoirot]

HP
Sending the "game changer text" required a lot of courage and faith. This seemed to turn a corner for you. Whilst analysis is very important and for the immediate future working on yourself is absolutely vital for yourself this now shows that you are open for change and if you want it this can happen with more ease.

Breathe.

You made a big major shift by sending that text. In 12 steps we call this acceptance of change. A desire to move forward. Crucial to repair and recovery.

A time when HP can feel proud of HP.

Reflections
Vanilla

Thank you so much Vanilla for your kindness. I really do appreciate your lovely posts here and I will do better at making my changes and breathing as you suggest.

[HPoirot]

Yes 25 this is my latest thread. My other thread kept growing as I started this new one. Crazy times.

"Just have to trust the DB approach to ending it. "

There's one important thing you need to understand. There is no "DB approach". DBing means to do what works. Even if you didn't have the DB book, you should be doing that any way. DB is not a ploy. It's building yourself back up after the devastating news of your M potentially ending and learning how to understand your W and where she's coming from.

It still is up to YOU to determine what to do and when to do it.

Yes of course you are right MrBond. Through the last couple days I was more focused on W's reactions and my ploys than on becoming a better me. I do see, though, that I incidentally got in some work on myself... my surprise GAL adventure, my boundary setting attempts, trying to stay calm and not quitting after making a mistake, and better poise dealing with W face to face under stress. Small improvements and I am determined to do more building on myself and more understanding of W.

While it's true that OM is not the cause of the M breakdown, per se, introducing him into a troubled situation as a fix on her end hardly helped things.
And most women would not be walking away from their M unless Fantasy Man was there to cushion the fall.

So yeah. His presence IS significant and cannot be discounted by her.

Hello GG. Again thank you so much for your support in my crisis yesterday. I'm so tired now of OM watch but yes I agree his presence stops any movement of W in my direction.

I just read the same comments you read, and then you reached a conclusion that for ME, did Not follow.

IMO, GG did NOT say "his presence stops ANY movement of w in my direction".

IN fact, I read her previous comments a lot differently. Same for Wonka's....don't negate the positives!

Catch yourself being negative, b/c it's not serving you well OR your situation. I urge you to watch yourself for this trait popping up and giving you miscues often.

Don't want to beat a dead horse but this does trouble me b/c it's a pattern of yours that you either are not noticing and or you don't think needs any adjustment.


If I bring him up, she just say "he's not the issue" as she did the first day so it's not worth it to do again. Lesson learned. I need to get back to building better me now.

Even wonder if your wife is telling you what she thinks is true? And might she be right?

YES, While OM made her departure from your marriage, EASIER, (so would a million bucks)

it's NOT the same as being the cause of it AND it's NOT saying that she cannot or will not change her mind until if and when he leaves her. I have seen MANY adulterous spouses choose their spouse and then return. In fact, isn't that what YOU did after your affair?

Did your OW have to leave for you to return? Even if so, its' not fair to apply that to your wife, is it?

--

Neither of you put enough into THIS marriage or relationship, and in your case you had a previous affair with your "epic love".

Yet somehow you still want to be married to THIS woman. Right?

So why is it impossible for you to imagine her having the same experience/discovery on her end?

That is an excellent point. I see it would take a lot of confidence in myself and my future either way to simply think this way. That's what better me would think.

Start BEING the better you and STOP waiting to feel like it. "Externals" can create internals. Meaning, you can engage in new different behaviors that create the emotion you seek INSTEAD of waiting to feel it first. (That's a crap shoot).

Please watch the TED Talk videos on changing how we think/are. One is by Amy Cuddy on "Faking It til You Become It" and the other is something about Positive Psychology by shawn Achor.

Don't poo pooh these^^ b/c they are both profound and empirically supported with great data.

They only last 20 minutes and can be, literally the start of a life change.


I'm getting closer to that sometimes when my head is clear and I'm feeling successful. Yes, I can just feel successful more often and then I could just surrender to this idea.

Also, work on your tendency to radiate neediness. Forgive me if that stings, but at times you simply reek of being needy. Like you have to have someone, (maybe anyone), on your arm, and or paying attention to you

or you can't/won't feel good about yourself. Like your self esteem comes from others and not yourself.

No need to apologize... I see very clearly how needy I become in reaction to W's actions and lack of affection.

If I got this right, this^^ is you blaming her for YOUR self esteem issues and Your neediness. Catch yourself pretending to own something (while in reality you don't.)

I think your wife could have been excellent to you, & you might still have wandered with your OW from your past. Check the double standards at the door.

On one hand, your wife "caused" your low self esteem which indirectly places the blame for your prior affair, on HER as well. However, for HER affair, you played no role and it's all or mostly on her...and the role you may have played is explainable and defensible b/c of other things she did "TO" you, correct?

HP, you can't have it both ways, even though you sure are trying to.
You SEEM to be saying she is to blame for your neediness AND she is to blame for your prior affair, AND she's also to blame for her affair...

What do you believe you are solely responsible for in the m, that isn't good?

I hope you see my point.



I see how all this has highlighted my need to not be alone again. I fact, I can honestly say now I'm grateful for this experience to work on this. I see for years I thought I was an independent person b/c I thought I didn't need anyone. But it was always my dependence on my W that I was leaning on. She got tired of carrying me and she won't have me again if I can't stand on my own. She even said she was afraid to leave me b/c she felt I would fall apart. So far I have struggled but not fallen apart completely . I can do much much better though... not just hiding my neediness but just not having it.

IF you believe she will not choose you or your marriage over OM, can you tell us why that is so?

I know why... because I believe he is solid in his confidence. I've seen his profile on line... I know who he is. He is successful in his mind and so he is internally happy.

Again you are following the belief that if certain External conditions are met in your world, THEN you can be happy. But that's not how life works. Otherwise the poor would be miserable and the wealthier would be happy but that's not the case often.

Let's invert that^^ sentence to read "He's internally happy, so he is successful in his mind". B/C I think that's 1) more likely AND 2) in his control.

If you are counting on external validation ("Success") to validate you "SO" that you can be happy, you are mistaken.

^^^THIS means you are powerless...b/c storms or economic factors or wars or politics will "STOP" you from being happy -- IF you are depending on those other "Conditions precedent" to be happy.

Just BE HAPPY, and you will be. Why? How? B/c you are going to remind yourself that you are healthy and free and a father with healthy children, who is employed and in our freedom loving nation. And those factors just placed YOU in the top 10% of men, globally.




One of his first emails to W was his resume. It is impressive. He has a high visibility job. He sent W a recording of a (confidential) financial conference he did to impress her. He knows to show her his belief in his ability and how that shows up in the world. He likely likes himself and believes in what he does. While my resume is impressive and my work affects millions and enables millions for the company I work for, I have not believed in my work. I am not impressed or excited by the results of my work. I do not believe in or am engaged with in the company I work for. Before now, I would work all day lazily in my bathrobe. W said a couple weeks ago, when I was a consultant with my own business (when she met me), I was energetic, interesting, and impactful. She's all about impactful. OM is a Who's Who board member type. A social person. And he's older. W likes men who can be father figure like. She used to call me Daddy when we really ML (I never liked that btw). That's where I must to get back to... for my own mental health. Just being impactful in my thoughts, attitude, appearance, and life. It starts by me making choices to be happy.

You did a TON of mind reading, and often you threw yourself under the bus here^^^, but you finished strong, with a simple TRUE statement.

Make the choice to be happy. Aristotle said "happiness is a virtue" b/c he knew that we have to make it happen. Happiness AND LOVE do not land in our laps. We must choose to create both in our lives.

Hello 25. Yes my post last night was very negative. I have noticed how negative I get. When I do better, like now, I reread my posts and edit out my negative words. I notice that when I write positive I feel stronger. I didn't do that last night. I know I have to work to feel positive especially now.

And yes OM is not the issue, he's the symptom. My W is right. I have felt frustrated and angry because I believe we can't get to the issues in our M with her in an A. I know this frustration shows. I can let it go so, eventually, I can feel truly happy. The simple thing to do is, as you say, just be the better me.

No, my OW did not have to leave for me to return to my M. Even so, I want to can be fair to my W... to just relax and let her go through her discovery... to give her the space she wants... to be fine either way. I know logically all those things are the best way to go. I want to can really embrace all those things for her, the survival of our M, and my sanity. (Deleting all the negative words I said here.) So I just have to.

I do see your point about how I seem to blame W for everything. I'm thinking I feel complete responsibility for my neediness, my A, and my issues that made W no longer want me. But I can also see how I do also blame W. I see I don't want all my crap to be only my fault. So then I do focus on her changing (her mind) while I'm thinking I'm doing the changing. I am having trouble there. So I'm back to just be the better me. How would better me treat W? He would be a good neighbor because he is. Poise, class, dignity. How would better me feel good right now? Just get busy on the work that needs doing b/c you feel great when it's done. Just enjoy your day. Make it a fun game to find a way anyway to enjoy your day.

Yes that rant on OM was very bad. I was writing about myself and my self doubt. I know my happiness must come from me not external things. It starts by me making choices to be happy.

I'm watching the TED talk videos now.

Thank you 25. I know I can be successful here because I can.

I do love myself and there's a lot to love.

[HPoirot]

Journaling...

Today going OK.

Forced myself to do my cold shower routine this morning. That helped PMA.

Solved a work problem today... but it took 3 days when I should have been done in 30 minutes. That's the last time that happens. I can do better.

Success keeping PMA... had some very hopeless feeling about my sitch that I fought through. Remembering it's vital to disconnect from the outcome here. Think I'll go outside for a walk.

Texting from W continued a little. She texted where she is in the city she's working in today in case of emergency she said. She has never done that before.

Almost immediately after she texts... "I hope you are feeling OK. I know this is a really awful time. I am so sorry."

Noted my very negative feelings on that last text.

I do not respond to either.

I gave my DB effort 6 months... end of April next year... then I reassess. There's a lot I can do to be a better me in that time. I know how to act living with W while she's in her A. Friendly neighbor. Polite. Upbeat. Busy with life. Great Dad to our boy.

Can I do any more connection love language now that we're here? No b/c self respect.

Focus on me. Feel better.

I can do this.

[Wonka]

HP,

You sound better today. Whew.

Can I do any more connection love language now that we're here? No b/c self respect.

Do you know your W's LL? Any idea?

How about yours?

[Wonka]

Oh and one other question. When is your W returning back from her trip?

[HPoirot]

Hello Wonka. Thank you again for your script. I'm happy with less texts/phone calls from W. I'm looking forward to getting that right with her in person.

Her LL are words of affirmation and quality time.

Mine are physical touch and words of affirmation

Before my OM boundary day, I did work on quality time before bed and made sure to listen closely, validate, and praise her which she seemed to enjoy. Now that she's moved to the couch, I've been ignoring most of her communication the last few days, and OM is out in the open again... I don't see how to keep re-connecting with her. Is that possible or is it better now to make myself less available all around? I'm now going with friendly while less available b/c I'm as if moving on and b/c self respect. For example... "Better take the bus," when she asks for a ride to work.

She comes back tomorrow at noon.

[Wonka]

Ok. Time to prepare for the next step in your journey.

First of all, keep the LL's in your back pocket for the time being. Now is not the time to use them while W is in a full-blown A with the OM.

Let's review what transpired over the last few days.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
W: Now she texts... "Would you still like to go to counseling?"

HP: Ok sent this text... "W... I have decided there will be no counseling as long as you're still in contact with OM. As I said before, I'm not willing to continue to live in an open marriage. I am willing to go to counseling with you if you've broken ALL ties with OM. We have some decisions to make here."

HP & W Exchange: Then she came upstairs into our room where I was working. She asks... "Can you give me a ride to the airport or should I call a cab."

I say politely, "Better call a cab." I always drive her to the airport.

W: So she texts me... "This is not about him. I think you know that. At any rate, I think separating is best... as I have said all along. So yes we have decisions to make. When I get back maybe we can sit down and talk?"

HP: If you want to separate, I will not stand in your way. Sure, we can talk when you get back here.


W: Now I'm here with her text response... "Separating doesn't mean we don't work together or go to counseling."

HP: Thank you for sharing your thoughts. I think it's best to hold off on texting until you get back and then we can discuss some of the issues you raised. You are correct that our focus needs to be on our son. Again, thanks.

HP & W Exchange: She called earlier. I did not answer. She texted me to have S11 call her. I did.

Now, she just texted me "how is S11?" I didn't answer immediately.

She texts "Can you please just let me know?"

I say ... "Good. Eating stew. Subdued but not sad."

She texts back a note about his meds and "Thanks for replying. I will not text again."

HP & W Exchange: Texting from W continued a little. She texted where she is in the city she's working in today in case of emergency she said. She has never done that before.

Almost immediately after she texts... "I hope you are feeling OK. I know this is a really awful time. I am so sorry."

Noted my very negative feelings on that last text.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
What were the negative feelings on the last text? Could you please post it here so we can help you better?

[Wonka]

Do you and W each have your own car or share only one family car?

Here's a question that I want you to ponder and take time in answering.

-What kind of person do you want be to W when she returns? (And how does that line up with your own core values?)

[25yearsmlc]

Just so I'm clear on the GOAL here, why are you ignoring her texts (which not replying to them, is)?

Remember to act in accordance with your goals, and NOT in accordance with how you feel at a given moment.

Okay?

[HPoirot]

Almost immediately after she texts... "I hope you are feeling OK. I know this is a really awful time. I am so sorry."

Noted my very negative feelings on that last text.

Wonka... my immediate feeling was "FU AND YOUR F***ING CONCERN WHEN YOU ARE DOING THIS TO ME!!!!"

I know logically that my anger and stress are my problem and that I'm creating my pain and with consistent effort and practice and can choose to let it go and I need to do just that before tomorrow. I also know that her actions are not about me or anything to do with me... they are about her and what she is going through.

Does that help you?

[Starsky309]

Texting from W continued a little. She texted where she is in the city she's working in today in case of emergency she said. She has never done that before.

Almost immediately after she texts... "I hope you are feeling OK. I know this is a really awful time. I am so sorry."

. . . I do not respond to either.

I know how to act living with W while she's in her A. Friendly neighbor. Polite. Upbeat. . . .

So you would really just completely ignore a polite, even positive text message from a neighbor? That's being "polite?" Really??


Starsky

[HPoirot]

Do you and W each have your own car or share only one family car?

Here's a question that I want you to ponder and take time in answering.

-What kind of person do you want be to W when she returns? (And how does that line up with your own core values?)

We share a family car. It's needed because we drive an hour round trip to pick up S11 in the afternoon. We split that duty depending on work schedules. I usually drive her to work when schedule requires it but she can also easily take the bus or walk. We live in the North East so winter.

What kind of person do I want to be when she gets here? A happy, alive, self-respecting, centered man with interesting things to do and a sunny life to look forward to. That's the man I really want to be in general. Some of my core values are to be fun-loving, passionate, respectful, fit, loving, and respected.

[HPoirot]

Just so I'm clear on the GOAL here, why are you ignoring her texts (which not replying to them, is)?

Remember to act in accordance with your goals, and NOT in accordance with how you feel at a given moment.

Okay?

Texting from W continued a little. She texted where she is in the city she's working in today in case of emergency she said. She has never done that before.

Almost immediately after she texts... "I hope you are feeling OK. I know this is a really awful time. I am so sorry."

. . . I do not respond to either.

I know how to act living with W while she's in her A. Friendly neighbor. Polite. Upbeat. . . .

So you would really just completely ignore a polite, even positive text message from a neighbor? That's being "polite?" Really??


Starsky

Hello 25 and Starsky. Today's ignoring texts was a holdover from the text I sent yesterday saying "let's hold off on anymore texting until you get back home." (from her trip). She said she would send no more texts. The initial ignoring texts was after I told her my OM boundary b/c she was peppering me with questions and to make sure I didn't say anything stupid b/c I was angry and a little drunk GALing.

Even so, yes I see it's not polite to ignore her especially if she is reaching out. But, after the last 3 days, shouldn't I be communicating with her less? I just told her I'm not going to last long nor go to MC in an open marriage and her response was to say she's sorry for being disrespectful and lying to me, saying again she thinks we should separate, and then to move out of our bedroom to the couch. (And then suggest we could still go to counseling while separated.)

I really do not want to punish her and I am aware my first reaction is to do just that. I just want to do what works in regards to interactions with her.

[Starsky309]

Today's ignoring texts was a holdover from the text I sent yesterday saying "let's hold off on anymore texting until you get back home." (from her trip). She said she would send no more texts. The initial ignoring texts was after I told her my OM boundary b/c she was peppering me with questions and to make sure I didn't say anything stupid b/c I was angry and a little drunk GALing.

Oh, OK -- fair enough.

[HPoirot]

And thank you so much Wonka for this excellent rundown of the last 3 days. It is very educational for me to see and I hope it helps others. This is my life now.

Ok. Time to prepare for the next step in your journey.

First of all, keep the LL's in your back pocket for the time being. Now is not the time to use them while W is in a full-blown A with the OM.

Let's review what transpired over the last few days.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
W: Now she texts... "Would you still like to go to counseling?"

HP: Ok sent this text... "W... I have decided there will be no counseling as long as you're still in contact with OM. As I said before, I'm not willing to continue to live in an open marriage. I am willing to go to counseling with you if you've broken ALL ties with OM. We have some decisions to make here."

HP & W Exchange: Then she came upstairs into our room where I was working. She asks... "Can you give me a ride to the airport or should I call a cab."

I say politely, "Better call a cab." I always drive her to the airport.

W: So she texts me... "This is not about him. I think you know that. At any rate, I think separating is best... as I have said all along. So yes we have decisions to make. When I get back maybe we can sit down and talk?"

HP: If you want to separate, I will not stand in your way. Sure, we can talk when you get back here.


W: Now I'm here with her text response... "Separating doesn't mean we don't work together or go to counseling."

HP: Thank you for sharing your thoughts. I think it's best to hold off on texting until you get back and then we can discuss some of the issues you raised. You are correct that our focus needs to be on our son. Again, thanks.

HP & W Exchange: She called earlier. I did not answer. She texted me to have S11 call her. I did.

Now, she just texted me "how is S11?" I didn't answer immediately.

She texts "Can you please just let me know?"

I say ... "Good. Eating stew. Subdued but not sad."

She texts back a note about his meds and "Thanks for replying. I will not text again."

HP & W Exchange: Texting from W continued a little. She texted where she is in the city she's working in today in case of emergency she said. She has never done that before.

Almost immediately after she texts... "I hope you are feeling OK. I know this is a really awful time. I am so sorry."

Noted my very negative feelings on that last text.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
What were the negative feelings on the last text? Could you please post it here so we can help you better?

[Wonka]

Do you and W each have your own car or share only one family car?

Here's a question that I want you to ponder and take time in answering.

-What kind of person do you want be to W when she returns? (And how does that line up with your own core values?)

We share a family car. It's needed because we drive an hour round trip to pick up S11 in the afternoon. We split that duty depending on work schedules. I usually drive her to work when schedule requires it but she can also easily take the bus or walk. We live in the North East so winter.

What kind of person do I want to be when she gets here? A happy, alive, self-respecting, centered man with interesting things to do and a sunny life to look forward to. That's the man I really want to be in general. Some of my core values are to be fun-loving, passionate, respectful, fit, loving, and respected.

I think I was not clear what I really meant by asking you that question. What I really meant was what will your actions be once W returns back after the latest string of texts? What I am referring to is the immediacy of your interactions once W touches down for she WILL bring up the counseling issue and separation as the "better" option in her mind.

In other words, what are your plans?

[HPoirot]

I think I was not clear what I really meant by asking you that question. What I really meant was what will your actions be once W returns back after the latest string of texts? What I am referring to is the immediacy of your interactions once W touches down for she WILL bring up the counseling issue and separation as the "better" option in her mind.

In other words, what are your plans?

I plan on being calm, friendly, and welcoming like a polite neighbor. I plan on being open to when W wants to say what she needs to say. I plan on validating what she says without agreeing. I plan on saying "thank you for sharing. you've given me a lot to think about. Let me get back to you on that." On any questions that she wants answered.

Is there anything I can add or change?

[HPoirot]

I saw Rzrback had an epiphany today. Maybe I had one too...

I came here to save my marriage. Reading a lot of the sitches here, I saw many talking about fog and PEAs and addiction when talking about the A. I first thought this was a convenient way to frame this... like your WAS is ill so that makes your pain easier... easier to feel compassion for your WAS. I rejected that... I felt my W is to blame for her wrongness. She is killing me and I took it personally. And then everything I've done since happened. Now I have to climb out of a hole to get back to re-connecting with her again.

But, I had an affair. I know what it's like to feel trapped and depressed and cold and lonely and sad in your life. And then, the next minute, like a bolt of lightning hits you and the world completely changes. Words on your mobile phone make your head swim. To hear someone's voice is the only thing you can think about. And then to see the person.

My W spent everyday for the last 8 years stressed out about bills, her son's ADD, expensive tuition, expensive rent, no money, back taxes, her mother's illness, her stepfather's strokes, her larger family problems, her job, her student loans, a dying and smelly cat, a house constantly in need of cleaning, her growing dependence on alcohol, her failing back and legs, her age, her fading dreams, self centered friends... and a depressed good man of a husband who seemed to settle for status quo. Trapped and depressed and cold and lonely and sad in her life.

I have not really tried to look at this from W's point of view. With all the above burdens and more crushing her spirit... another man came and gave her attention. She can leave behind all of the above through him. To her, I am all of the above that she runs from. I'm making that view of me worse by fighting, avoiding, and being angry.

So, framing is a good thing. It can make something impossible look possible by just trying to understand and changing your attitude. When I first thought of this in the car... I felt at peace for a few minutes. Maybe, when my W gets back, I can be the better me who understands the above and can be sympathetic and patient. My W is going through a hard hard time. She is sick with all the pressure on her. At the same time, there is joy that she can't deny. Can I put aside my needs for months if needed to smooth the road home whenever she's ready to take it if ever? Because, for almost 20 years this woman has been my best friend. She has carried me in my sadness for 8 years. She sent me to see another woman to help me feel better and I came back. Can I be strong enough now, to step back and let her find her way back too?

I've taken this all so personally so far. This is not about me. This is about her. I can love and support her by being a strong enough man to put his needs aside for a while and just make a better place for her (and me) to land.

This is what I learned.

[Wonka]

Alrighty, HP. Here is the thing. I don't think you've really thought out some potential scenarios after W returns back home so I am going to ask you some questions to get you to think some more.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

W: So she texts me... "This is not about him. I think you know that. At any rate, I think separating is best... as I have said all along. So yes we have decisions to make. When I get back maybe we can sit down and talk?"

Let's say that she brings this up again and says that the OM has nothing to do with the separation. Separation is the route to go. What would you say to this?


HP: If you want to separate, I will not stand in your way. Sure, we can talk when you get back here.

W: Now I'm here with her text response... "Separating doesn't mean we don't work together or go to counseling."

Trust me. She will push this HARD. What would be your response to this?

HP: Thank you for sharing your thoughts. I think it's best to hold off on texting until you get back and then we can discuss some of the issues you raised. You are correct that our focus needs to be on our son. Again, thanks.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I would caution you to be very aware that W might throw in EVERYTHING in the discussion to distract you from the real issue at hand: There's the OM in the living room as a pgymy pink-spotted elephant.

What are your lines in the sand, HP? What are some of your non-negotiables?

[HPoirot]

Alrighty, HP. Here is the thing. I don't think you've really thought out some potential scenarios after W returns back home so I am going to ask you some questions to get you to think some more.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

W: So she texts me... "This is not about him. I think you know that. At any rate, I think separating is best... as I have said all along. So yes we have decisions to make. When I get back maybe we can sit down and talk?"

Let's say that she brings this up again and says that the OM has nothing to do with the separation. Separation is the route to go. What would you say to this?


HP: If you want to separate, I will not stand in your way. Sure, we can talk when you get back here.

W: Now I'm here with her text response... "Separating doesn't mean we don't work together or go to counseling."

Trust me. She will push this HARD. What would be your response to this?

HP: Thank you for sharing your thoughts. I think it's best to hold off on texting until you get back and then we can discuss some of the issues you raised. You are correct that our focus needs to be on our son. Again, thanks.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I would caution you to be very aware that W might throw in EVERYTHING in the discussion to distract you from the real issue at hand: There's the OM in the living room as a pgymy pink-spotted elephant.

What are your lines in the sand, HP? What are some of your non-negotiables?

I've told her...

I don't want a separation but won't stand in her way.
I won't last long in an open marriage.
Our friendship is over and I will divorce her if she continues in an A.
I will co-parent and be civil but not a friend if she continues in an A.
If she cuts off all contact I will go to MC.

So I do what I say. Fine if she separates... but she understands if she continues the A I'm only communicating on finances and S11. There will be no working together on her project and no counseling. We will not be friends. There will be no R talks or nice get togethers. She will pay for her own stuff and have no access to my paycheck. And, for me, I will file for divorce on my schedule when I'm financially set and done trying.

I also see that what I just said doesn't quite match with the flowery love letter I wrote in my last post.

[Wonka]

Do you really want a divorce?

If not, then stop threatening to D or throwing out the D word.

We all say here that it is crucial to put the onus of a D on the WAS and let them do the legwork. If they want to separate, let them move out since they're the ones that want to do so. You seem want to stick to your guns on below items, right?

-Not live in an open M
-Staying inside your marital home
-No MC counseling until A is over
-No friendship while in A
-Focus on logistics exchanges as necessary as they relate to son
-You will not allow marital assets to be used to fund A
-Your W can take the car or bus to work since she wanted to separate
-No more helping W with her projects or rescuing/fixing her

[HPoirot]

Do you really want a divorce?

If not, then stop threatening to D or throwing out the D word.

We all say here that it is crucial to put the onus of a D on the WAS and let them do the legwork. If they want to separate, let them move out since they're the ones that want to do so. You seem want to stick to your guns on below items, right?

-Not live in an open M
-Staying inside your marital home
-No MC counseling until A is over
-No friendship while in A
-Focus on logistics exchanges as necessary as they relate to son
-You will not allow marital assets to be used to fund A
-Your W can take the car or bus to work since she wanted to separate
-No more helping W with her projects or rescuing/fixing her

Yes thank you Wonka. Your list is exactly right. No R talks too, though, right? No I do not want a divorce. I can certainly stick to the above non-negotiables.

[lost18]

HP,

I know you have some veterans here giving you some good advice but there are a few things that stand out to me.

W: Now I'm here with her text response... "Separating doesn't mean we don't work together or go to counseling."

1) To me this does not necessarily mean work on your marriage or marriage counseling. It could simply mean that you will need to work together possibly go to counseling in order to co-parent.

2) You come across as a spoiled brat who isn't getting what you want on your terms. Look I get it, your W is involved with someone else and there needs to be boundaries. But I would ask if what you're doing is working. You are doing some good things, but it seems that some of what you're doing is pushing her further away. She in the past few days has gone from sleeping in your bed to the couch, to deciding that a separation is the way to go. Is that what you wanted? I apologize if I'm missing something, I'm just an outsider listening to your side of the story.

3) Have you seen an attorney? As much as I don't want a D I did force myself to have a consultation with and attorney so I knew what my rights were. You are talking about marital assets and a family car, you might want to figure out how that works.

[HPoirot]

HP,

I know you have some veterans here giving you some good advice but there are a few things that stand out to me.

W: Now I'm here with her text response... "Separating doesn't mean we don't work together or go to counseling."

1) To me this does not necessarily mean work on your marriage or marriage counseling. It could simply mean that you will need to work together possibly go to counseling in order to co-parent.

Hello lost18. Thank you for your comments. Yes you are exactly right. By work together she means work on her new business venture. By counseling she means MC. Sometimes she says she wants us to go to MC only to see if she wants to work on our M. Sometimes she says she does not want to work on the M but will go to MC for co-parenting. Sometimes she says she wants MC for us to learn to be kind through her separation idea. She has not said she is committed to saving our M as she has A going. She has said once or twice when she was sad and we were better together that we took vows so we should explore every possibility. What she says depends on her mood (icy or sad).

2) You come across as a spoiled brat who isn't getting what you want on your terms. Look I get it, your W is involved with someone else and there needs to be boundaries. But I would ask if what you're doing is working. You are doing some good things, but it seems that some of what you're doing is pushing her further away. She in the past few days has gone from sleeping in your bed to the couch, to deciding that a separation is the way to go. Is that what you wanted? I apologize if I'm missing something, I'm just an outsider listening to your side of the story.

True I have taken things personally and pushed to get control of the sitch my way. One of my W's issues with me is that I let her wear the pants way too often. She will not be attracted to me again unless I frustrate her and appear decisive and resolute in this process. Also, yes it was a nice few weeks when she was in my bed and we were friends. But, all the while she was in this A and disrespecting me. If I had not brought OM up again b/c I was so happy for just that taste of her attention, she would have seen me as weaker than she does now. I gave her a chance to end it, she said she would, she did not. Consequences. Plus, she always wanted separation. Every time I acted up she would threaten it to keep control. It would have been great for her if I made her comfortable until she had the money to move. But, again, that's not attractive. Finally, yes I took things personally and got angry and made big mistakes. Even so, I'm good here where she moved herself to the couch and knows I'm not a push-over vs her sleeping in my bed with me entertaining her while she texts/sees OM.

3) Have you seen an attorney? As much as I don't want a D I did force myself to have a consultation with and attorney so I knew what my rights were. You are talking about marital assets and a family car, you might want to figure out how that works.

No I have not seen an attorney. Honestly I'm not there yet. I'm angry with my wife yes ... but I think I'm the only one who's said divorce. I believe she would take a way back here if I could provide a good one. She doesn't believe I can now and that's OK. I'm learning and growing and thankful for this chance to be better. Besides, we have more debt than anything else. At least she wants to work with me on that. I just have to lead. She only really listens when I lead.

[25yearsmlc]

I saw Rzrback had an epiphany today. Maybe I had one too...

I came here to save my marriage. Reading a lot of the sitches here, I saw many talking about fog and PEAs and addiction when talking about the A. I first thought this was a convenient way to frame this... like your WAS is ill so that makes your pain easier... easier to feel compassion for your WAS. I rejected that... I felt my W is to blame for her wrongness. She is killing me and I took it personally. And then everything I've done since happened. Now I have to climb out of a hole to get back to re-connecting with her again.

But, I had an affair. I know what it's like to feel trapped and depressed and cold and lonely and sad in your life. And then, the next minute, like a bolt of lightning hits you and the world completely changes. Words on your mobile phone make your head swim. To hear someone's voice is the only thing you can think about. And then to see the person.

My W spent everyday for the last 8 years stressed out about bills, her son's ADD, expensive tuition, expensive rent, no money, back taxes, her mother's illness, her stepfather's strokes, her larger family problems, her job, her student loans, a dying and smelly cat, a house constantly in need of cleaning, her growing dependence on alcohol, her failing back and legs, her age, her fading dreams, self centered friends... and a depressed good man of a husband who seemed to settle for status quo. Trapped and depressed and cold and lonely and sad in her life.

I have not really tried to look at this from W's point of view. With all the above burdens and more crushing her spirit... another man came and gave her attention. She can leave behind all of the above through him. To her, I am all of the above that she runs from. I'm making that view of me worse by fighting, avoiding, and being angry.

So, framing is a good thing. It can make something impossible look possible by just trying to understand and changing your attitude. When I first thought of this in the car... I felt at peace for a few minutes. Maybe, when my W gets back, I can be the better me who understands the above and can be sympathetic and patient. My W is going through a hard hard time. She is sick with all the pressure on her. At the same time, there is joy that she can't deny. Can I put aside my needs for months if needed to smooth the road home whenever she's ready to take it if ever? Because, for almost 20 years this woman has been my best friend. She has carried me in my sadness for 8 years. She sent me to see another woman to help me feel better and I came back. Can I be strong enough now, to step back and let her find her way back too?

I've taken this all so personally so far. This is not about me. This is about her. I can love and support her by being a strong enough man to put his needs aside for a while and just make a better place for her (and me) to land.

This is what I learned.

Good post, true insights. Don't backslide and forget this!

THIS^^ rings true to me. I hope it is true for you, and I hope you remember this every time you want to focus on how hurt YOU are and when you forget about the inconvenient parts of Your past.

DBing is about many things INCLUDING empathy. What you are describing above, is simply that...Empathy!

Empathy for the woman who was your best friend for decades.

When you are tempted to think about your pain and YOUR loss and how you want to set your boundaries(!!!).....


I hope you will think about your affair and how SHE must have felt, knowing your "real love" -- was NOT for her...ad remember the questions I asked you about how You came out of the affair and chose your wife,

(without any "boundaries" from your wife!)

You two may even find each other again. I really hope so. I cannot imagine it happening without EMPATHY - and I think it's great for you to see this.

[HPoirot]

You two may even find each other again. I really hope so. I cannot imagine it happening without EMPATHY - and I think it's great for you to see this.

Thank you 25. I'm glad you feel I'm seeing things in a better empathic way. I will not backslide and forget.

[HPoirot]

My W is in an A with OM that she does not want to give up. I understand why her A happened and why she does not want to give it up. I love and miss my W. She says she does not want me or a life with me. After everything that's happened in this sitch, I can see how she could think it's impossible for us to be in love again. She says she is thinking about what she wants to do and needs space. I cannot change her. I can only change myself and smooth the road her her to come back if she ever wants to.

Five hours from now my W comes home from her trip. What do I do today to smooth the road?

She wants to sit and talk. She has a plan she wants to follow. She's asking me questions like she wants my agreement. I have stated my boundaries clearly and she knows them.

So today I STFU and listen and validate. If there's anything that doesn't work for me... I just say "That doesn't work for me." and state the rest briefly. No speeches.

If she needs an answer on something, I say "Thank you for that. I know it's important to you. I'll think about it and get right back to you."

Today she may try to hurt me more. She has calmly and evenly said many hurtful things to me when she is cold, focused, and trying to get her way. She will be that way today. This is where calmly taking ice cold showers help. I just stand tall and take the shower.

These are the worst and best days of my life. I don't have to like this. I just have to do this.

...

If you have some to give... please send me your words of encouragement today. They would help me greatly.

And if you know my sitch and think I'm wrong here, please let me know. It would help me better understand.

Thank you all again for this board, your support, and your incredible advice.

Time for an ice cold shower.

Wish me luck.

Onward.

[LisaB]

Hi HP, I have been following your story and I think you are on the right track. I think you have a good idea for how to handle your W when she comes home and wants to talk.

She needs to go on her path right now, as you said. I think if you can have that attitude while you talk with her, it will be helpful. If you can give off energy that says "I let you go to find your way" then I think the more likely it is that she will come back to you. There's something about that freedom. If she feels she has to struggle against you, struggle to get away from you, she will fight, she will do hurtful things and she will run. But if you calmly "open the cage door" she might not fly away, or at least not too far.

It's almost like you have to accept that she is gone before she really goes.

Good luck with your talk with her today. Keep us posted!

Hugs, Lisa

[Wonka]

HP,

-Keep your head straight.
-Stay calm.
-You are entitled to your opinions if you disagree.
-Not everything will be solved in one talk.
-If you sense things will escalate, say you both need to step back and you will talk only when both of you are civil.

-Don't criticize W.
-Don't even acknowledge the OM.
-Keep your voice calm and firm.
-No mudslinging.

Good luck!

[Starsky309]

HP,

Not much to add that others haven't already said, and that you don't seem to have your own good grip on already, just this:

I would start this "new you" thing by NOT being immediately available to "sit and talk" when she gets back from her trip. That is HER agenda, HER timeline. You are a mysterious, interesting, BUSY guy . . . remember?

"Yeah, I need to discuss some things with you too, but today isn't good for me and tomorrow is nuts. How about Sunday afternoon about 4?" (or whatever)

You can't stop her from delivering her script to you, but you do not have to meet her "gotta-do-it-now" timeline.

Starsky

[Vanilla]

HP

The advice here is solid and you can rehearse.

What would I like to hear or say if I were Mrs HP

Breathing Space
Not to be dealing with this as I walk through the door
Ordinariness until I get myself together
A cup of tea or coffee
Clatter, chatter and happy kids
A rest after my journey
Some pleasantries

Then if I were Mrs HP in my time (not Mr HPs)

Mrs: We have things to discuss
Mr: Can we discuss this ......... (HP choosing) I can see you are tired/busy/etc and its Friday.

Recommend a time location- whatever suits YOU and you are ready

Later

HP breathe, project love to Mrs HP (but don't say the words)

"W let me start by repeating my text to you "reads text" I meant this, I would like to repair our marriage but I know that at this stage this isn't what you say you want. I won't stand in your way if you wish to separate but I am not going to help you"

My M and my children are very important to me. In the last (period) I have come to realise that my family is my world and I am putting our children at the centre of it.

Please work out what you want to do but there is plenty of time for you to decide please take all the time you require.

Now HP if you feel uncomfortable at any time make a graceful exit.

No need discuss OM, you can choose to save that for another time when you are stronger, no need to discuss boundaries unless you want to. Make a graceful exit.

Mr: We can discuss practicalities later. I am very clear that I want my M and my family together.

Mr: Would you like a cup of coffee etc

HP leaves to go wash the dishes, make coffee, take a P, play with kids, go for a drink, etc

Universal support flooding to you

Vanilla

[Starsky309]

HP, refresh my memory: what is this trip your wife is on? She's not with OM, is she?

Sorry, couldn't remember and didn't see it for last 2 pages of your thread . . .

thanks,

Starsky

[Vanilla]

Airport for work I believe page 3 of this thread

V

[Wonka]

Hey HP,

For a real chatterbox like you, it's been awfully quiet today. I hope you're okay. Please do check in and let us know how things went since W returned back home.

[HPoirot]

Thank you LisaB, Wonka, Starsky, Vanilla, and all of you for checking in on me. I am exhausted like I fought a battle today.

But I did it.

Today, while W and I talked, I was better me.

I'm too tired to do my usual book length post, so I will try to summarize and fill in more tomorrow.

Funny thing... she showed up early today... soon after I wrote my last post. I did not get a chance to see all your great advice for the talk.

She looked tired and miserable. She asked to talk immediately. I said OK. I was not feeling friendly yet as I was not ready.

Our first talk was tense and logistical. She wanted to talk about moving to a new apartment together to save money this year. She wanted to talk about the email where she laid out her ideas for the next few months until summer when she thinks she may get her own apartment (depending on money).

I basically calmly said, you're making these choices, it's up to you. I got up and walked away. She stayed sitting and didn't say anything.

I went upstairs and got centered. I remembered the enpathy post I wrote. I really tried to see things from her point of view. I didn't plan to go back downstairs... but after a few minutes I did.

She was still sitting in the kitchen, her arms folded on the kitchen table and her head down on them. I walked over to the other side of the table. I do not remember what I said. Something about "I don't understand."

Then we had a second talk. It was both wonderful and horrible. We actually connected a little at the end.

She said a lot of things about how she's feeling. Lots of information to work with.

But mainly, she came at getting MC from every possible way. You were right Wonka.

She wished someone was there with us to mediate. Someone to help her say everything she wants to say without hurting me. She wanted to make the appointment today.

She wanted...
Someone to tell her if she should work on our M.
Someone to find out how we could be better people and maybe then work on the M.
Someone to help us learn to co-parent.
Someone to help us be friends again.
Someone to help her explain her thing with OM.
And other things.

She came at it in so many ways trying to get around my boundary. Like she wanted me to allow the A go on and go to MC to talk about it.

Even so, every time I say something like... You're absolutely right W. We need MC. And it's non-negotiable for me... your A must end. I said it directly, calmly, even lovingly. I was that way the whole time. I felt great.

I used her words... "like you said W... your heart is in another place... distracted. And in MC we should be both in there with no distractions."

On our second talk, she cried a lot. She started crying when she said she was deeply hurt when I did not answer her texts and phone calls.

When I talked about how we're not friends anymore, she talked at length and passionately about how important our friendship is to her and how she can't lose it.

I managed to praise her for being brave enough to tell me she didn't love me. That I was grateful for this time to grow and that I've learned a lot. She asked if I was still in my on-line support group. I said yes... I've made some amazing friends there and they pulled be back from the brink because I immediately wanted to "divorce your ass" (exact words I used). She really smiled and said she was so happy I made good friends (thank you everyone).

She said, even if she packed up her bags tomorrow, she loves me. She said me and our S11 are her #1 priority. When I said don't worry about me, she cries all I worry about is you.

At one point she said "I should just stay and fix the M." She said that 4 times in a row. Of course she said it in a resigned voice.

She also said things like she can't give me what I want. I asked her what she thinks I want. She said to say I want to fix the M. I admitted... of course I would love you to say that. But I know you don't feel that way. You are your own person. I know I cannot change your mind and I do not want to. All I can do is make a place you may want to come back to one day I said.

She said some very interesting things. She said, if she made the decision to walk away, that she did not expect to be happy. She expected to be miserable for years. When I said, I know you don't want to be with me, she said she didn't want to be with anyone. She mentioned a previous EA that was just for conversation with a friend from high school. She mentioned that she doesn't know OM... he's just a stranger and she just wants to feel like a woman and get her needs met. She cried how I'm a good man. She asked how we could live together?. How she was disrespecting me and how doing so could she sleep in bed with me?

Not much about OM... but I had an opportunity to ask if OM is married. She said no. (I do know he at least was married with 3 kids.) She said it's hard because now she cares for him. She said he offered to back off because he didn't know what was happening. Most awful, she said OM texted her he had a dream about me. That, if he were me, he might do something that would put him in jail over this. I did show a little irritation but let it go. She will find out that will be the last talk of OM I will tolerate.

So basically a lot of the thoughts swirling around in her mind. She did almost all of the talking. She did not get angry at all. She was nice and even loving to me. She also shook the whole time. Sometimes tapping and even hitting her head. She looked terribly unhappy.

Then I said... let's stop here. I have a lot to do today. Thank you for talking And I got up to walk away.

Then I turned and said as terrible as this has been, I have enjoyed some of the talks we've had since BD. She brightened and agreed. I said we've haven't been close like this in years. I said this is intimacy you know... talking like this. If we didn't care about each other... this wouldn't be so hard. She really smiled then and said yes you're right. I felt some nice connection then.

And I got stupid.

I said, "and you're invited back to the bed."

And immediately regretted that. I may take that one back with "I thought about what you said about disrespecting me and I decided you were right about not sleeping in the bed as long as you are" if she does climb in bed next to me. I doubt that she will though.

Nothing was decided in our talk.

While she said multiple times she really really wants MC and she really wants to be friends no matter what, I did lovingly make clear multiple times...

While she is in A there will be no MC.
While she is in A we are not friends.
If she ends our M in this A we will never be friends again.
(I remember lovingly saying after she talked about why we need MC... "Yes your right... first we should be friends again. Right now, we are not friends.")
Now she will see me back my words up with actions actions actions.

She never said anything about divorce. She was never definitive about not being able to fix our M. In fact, once she corrected a definite "I can't get it back" with a "I don't know if I can get it back." She also said, in her soul she thinks it's too late for us. W always said she thinks.

Doesn't matter though... I don't believe 100% of what she says.

Then she left to go to work. She said "thank you for talking" and smiled her tired smile.

I said "yeah, " and walked away.

So I wrote a book again. I am so tired.

What a day. I feel good about it. Would love to know what you think. If you're where I am, I hope you learned something. You don't have to play your WAS's game. Listen to the advice here.

And guess what? I still have GAL tonight. Champagne Party! Tango and Salsa lessons! I really don't feel like going but I'm going!

Wish me luck.

Onward.

[HPoirot]

One last thing... she also mentioned she's now afraid to go back to her IC. W told IC that she drinks in the evening and then takes a sleeping pill. IC said women who do that to dull the pain in their lives can become alcoholic. W is afraid she is alcoholic. She still drinks even though she's should be on a liver regimen that prohibits her from drinking. She didn't like hearing that and now she won't go back to IC.

I can't fix her though. But there that is.

Oh, and at on point I suggested she pause (word I and her IC used) with OM to do MC. She said she could do that. She was all over the place.

[BigMac]

So, call me crazy here. But going to counseling to work on communication is necessary no matter what the outcome. No matter what you are co-parents of S11.

Who knows, being able to communicate and partner around that may give your W the courage to end the A.

[Starsky309]

"While she is in A there will be no MC.
While she is in A we are not friends."


Your WORDS may say that, but you are providing all of the kindness, empathy and support that a really GOOD friend would offer.

I highly suggest you pull back. WAY back. You are way too available to her.


Starsky

[Starsky309]

So, call me crazy here. But going to counseling to work on communication is necessary no matter what the outcome. No matter what you are co-parents of S11.

Who knows, being able to communicate and partner around that may give your W the courage to end the A.

MCing while a spouse is still in an affair is a complete waste of time, energy and money.

[HPoirot]

(On champagne glass #5)

Thank you starsky. I agree that I did get very into good friend land with our talk. I noted how much again I enjoyed her attention. So yes... The rest of today was back to pull back mode. I got ready for this party away from her. I did not speak to her unless she came to me which she did. She asked me where I was going. I answered generally. When I was leaving, I considered leaving without a word as she has done many times since BD. Decided that would be classless and said good night as I walked out the door. She said have fun. I don't like this but I am doing this. I just saw a cute girl walk in. I'm introducing myself and talking with everyone I meet. Champagne #6. Music is great too. Scheduling next GAL. Crazy life. But yes agree starsky. That you for staying with me. Toast to all of you. Looking for cute girl now. Wondering if I'll find W in my bed when I get home. I really hate this.

Champagne #7.

[HPoirot]

Bartender is divorced. Telling me his whole story. Nice. Champagne #?

[HPoirot]

Update... I made it home. Had I nice time GALing. Drank too much. Danced a little. Met some really nice people. Didn't want to be out tonight but I did it. Passed out in my car for a bit. Like old times. And when I get home.. What do I find? My W who's still in an A back in my bed snoring. That's no good. My giant mistake for inviting her back. Must pull back much much more. Considering telling her she was right to move to the couch and to go back. I don't have to like this. I've got to do this. Curious what you think. What a day.

Good night and thank you for reading.

Onward.

[Zues126]

H, You weren't clear but it sounds like you were driving drunk.

Don't.

My friend of 20 years just lost his grown son. Brain dead. The plug was pulled.

Divorce is life changing. Drunk driving is life ending. Waking up from an hour of bein passed out doesn't make you sober.

If I misunderstood the situation I apologize. Either way, find a way to GAL that is safe. Personally I would recommend against alcohol altogether. But if nothin else make sure it only impacts you, not others.

Thank you.

[Vanilla]

HP

Holding your ground is great news to hear. Resolve to keep it up, clear boundaries made, lines in the sand made. Stay behind them.

As you say 100% etc this holds

The alcohol issue is very important, from my thread you will know my H has a very serious compulsive problem including alcohol. If W has alcohol use with drug interaction then this means that you may be interacting with alcohol and not the person. It is W issue to deal with. Nothing can be done until she decides to change it. Sadly I have a lot of experience with this HP.

A couple of warnings:
do not have sex with W when either of you are drunk.
Please do not fall into the trap of self medicating with alcohol yourself.

Losing your license to drive will give your W the opportunity to point fingers.

I have given up alcohol almost completely as I feel I need to be in control of myself at all times around H. It is a difficult issue to add alcohol to the mix especially if W is adding prescription drugs so I believe you need to take extreme care of you especially for S11.

The 100% statement of sandi Guidelines applies x100 when dealing with alcohol and you could almost make that 100% of what they do under the influence.

Be the rock you can be HP, you all need that, whilst W is in this bad place she finds herself in. She put herself there and by you setting boundaries she appears to be beginning to face that.

The wonderful members of this board ( especially the vets) will give you advice on this journey, and those of us with less experience will encourage.
Encouragement
Vanilla

[BigMac]

+ 1 on being careful with the Alcohol. A DUI is not something you want on your record if you have to go through the divorce process.

[Wonka]

HP,

Generally, you did really good in the talk with W with a few exceptions. Yeah, I agree the "sleep in our bed" comment was a real doozy. Tonight, if W tries to slip in the bed, just calmly inform her that it is inappropriate to sleep in the same bed as long as she's in an A and you made a mistake with that doozy comment.

The biggest take away from the talk is that W is massively confused and hasn't brought up D talk. That is a positive.

She came at it in so many ways trying to get around my boundary. Like she wanted me to allow the A go on and go to MC to talk about it.

Even so, every time I say something like... You're absolutely right W. We need MC. And it's non-negotiable for me... your A must end. I said it directly, calmly, even lovingly. I was that way the whole time. I felt great.

^^ That is the KEY to the whole thing...really. Continue to sticking your guns on this one. Very important.

When I talked about how we're not friends anymore, she talked at length and passionately about how important our friendship is to her and how she can't lose it.

This is what the WAS fears the MOST and often it is what draws them back to the M. As Starsky, do pull back and let W process your talk from yesterday. She needs to see for herself the stark contrast of losing you and her family.

I managed to praise her for being brave enough to tell me she didn't love me.

^^ That comment was not good. Why? Because you are praising W for being "right" in telling you she does not love you. That is the wrong focus. Instead, you would want to say, "I know this takes a lot of courage to tell me your thoughts which cannot be easy at all. I appreciate you opening up to me. Thank you." This is something you would want to keep in mind on what you are really "praising" W for...it is the content and context that communicates to her.

Then I said... let's stop here. I have a lot to do today. Thank you for talking And I got up to walk away.

This is my favorite comment because it is strong, firm, and decisive.

Then I turned and said as terrible as this has been, I have enjoyed some of the talks we've had since BD. She brightened and agreed. I said we've haven't been close like this in years. I said this is intimacy you know... talking like this. If we didn't care about each other... this wouldn't be so hard. She really smiled then and said yes you're right. I felt some nice connection then.

And I got stupid.

I said, "and you're invited back to the bed."

You are not alone in making this type of mistake. Many LBHs do this when they feel the connection, then they do stupid. I see this all the time here. That is what I call the "wet noodle" reaction when the LBHs soften up and feel the connection. Blam! They get in stupidland. sigh Dust yourself off and remind yourself of your goals.

While she is in A there will be no MC.
While she is in A we are not friends.
If she ends our M in this A we will never be friends again.
(I remember lovingly saying after she talked about why we need MC... "Yes your right... first we should be friends again. Right now, we are not friends.")


Good job on laying it out on W. She has a lot to think about.

Yeah, stick to your guns and keep going.

One last thing... she also mentioned she's now afraid to go back to her IC. W told IC that she drinks in the evening and then takes a sleeping pill. IC said women who do that to dull the pain in their lives can become alcoholic. W is afraid she is alcoholic. She still drinks even though she's should be on a liver regimen that prohibits her from drinking. She didn't like hearing that and now she won't go back to IC.

I had to smile at this. Yeah, we see this quite frequently. Many WAS drop out of IC or MC if they dish out the truth and it doesn't fit in with their own POV. It is too bad.

Oh, and at on point I suggested she pause (word I and her IC used) with OM to do MC. She said she could do that. She was all over the place.

Why would you say THAT??!! It directly contradicts your position of being willing to go to MC if OM is completely out of the picture. What were you thinking??? You essentially told her "yeah, it's alright to take a break from your A so we can on MC then you can slip right back to the OM." Does that sound silly to you? Ayep. It does.

Overall, I think you really did a good job. Yeah, it's hard to think quickly on your feet right in the belly of the fire.

Now, it's the time to pull back.

[HPoirot]

Yes I did drink and drive last night. I was a horrible thing I did and I am sorry.

[Maybell]

Halfway through your night I almost posted that you needed to quit drinking. Would you have listened if I had?

[HPoirot]

Did I pull too far back?

Today I woke up and did my routine.

W asked me how my evening was and I said very good and walked away. I got busy and stayed away from her and tried to focus on what I wanted to do today and not on her.

She and S11 were getting ready to go to tennis lessons. I was in the kitchen reading my computer.

I told S11 to have a great time. He came over and gave me a hug. I told him I love him.

I turned back to my computer.

W said... "is this a no talking to me day?"

I turned to her and said "Oh no I'm talking to you." I was friendly.

She said "Can you tell me about your day? What your schedule is like?"

I said "I have some things to do today and I'll be out."

"This is a far cry from where we were yesterday when we talked," she said.

We said some other things about looking at apartments today. All the while she had a stunned "what the H?" look on her face. I was friendly.

I turned back to my computer.

I heard her walking around. Then she came into the kitchen and said, "I think you should take the lead on looking for an apartment where you want to live."

I looked and her and said OK.

Then she stomped to the door, turned, and said "Because come February 1st I'm out!"

Slammed the door and left with S11.

Looks like I went too far. Did I? Or is this me sticking to my guns and getting tested?

Now she texts me... "will you answer if I call in 10 minutes?"

What to do? Everyday just moves so fast.

[HPoirot]

Yes I would have stopped drinking if you had told me to Maybell. Thank you for even thinking of doing that.

[Wonka]

HP,

I heard her walking around. Then she came into the kitchen and said, "I think you should take the lead on looking for an apartment where you want to live."

I looked and her and said OK.

OMG! Why would you even do that?! Don't lift a friggin' finger. If W wants to move out, let her look at apts. Get your head on straight and let her do the leg work.

Now she texts me... "will you answer if I call in 10 minutes?"

What to do?

Ayep. She's testing you. You can say, "what is the nature of your call?"

[HPoirot]

We're planning to move out of our house into a smaller house to save money early next year. The plan was to all move together. Her suggestion just now was that we all move and then she would move out Feb. 1.

I sent your suggested text word for word 8 minutes after her text. Let's see what happens.

[Wonka]

Yes I would have stopped drinking if you had told me to Maybell. Thank you for even thinking of doing that.

HP, that's the wrong answer. No one is responsible for your actions. Maybell is not your mother. You are a grown man, HP.

[Wonka]

We're planning to move out of our house into a smaller house to save money early next year. The plan was to all move together. Her suggestion just now was that we all move and then she would move out Feb. 1.

Do you own the house you currently live in? Or are both of your names on the deed? How long have you had the house? What is the equity in it?

[HPoirot]

Thank you

We rent this place. This is just a money saving move to another rental.

She called. I answered. She started screaming about what we need to do. Asking me how we can live in the house together like this. Saying she doesn't know what to do. Telling me how I need to answer the phone because it hurts and worries her when I don't. Saying we need MC then saying what's the point of MC? She said she's happy I'm so centered and focused and I have a life now and I'm right and this is all on her and she doesn't know what to do. Saying she doesn't want to be the one slamming doors and making pronouncements b/c she's angry (at me for not answering my phone). She wants rules to live by.

I calmly said we can talk later when we're both better. She apologized for screaming and started to talk saying we don't have later. I said let's talk later and I hung up.

She called again and I didn't answer.

Pulling back is not at all fun.

Am I doing this right? This feels terrible.

I was just thinking how in my sitch I got no spew. Now I see I was keeping the peace by being a supportive friend. As soon as that went away... here I am.

Anyway... she just texted "I am so sorry HP."

I'm not responding.

Months of this huh? Nice.

[BigMac]

That sounds like some of the tests my WAW would put me through as we were circling the toilet.

Good job standing your ground.

Also, no need to apologize about driving drunk. The proper answer is "I won't do it again because it puts me and my children at risk"

(drinking is risky at these times anyways)

[HPoirot]

Wonka... I meant to say in my last post thank you for your support and for the 2X4s. I am responsible for my actions and it is more important than ever for me to remember that. I see I must consistently make good crucial decisions to act in my life now and I choose to do better. I won't drink and drive again because it puts me and my son at risk. I will avoid drinking.

Sidenote... I felt great a few minutes ago. Very strong. Now I'm feeling very shaky. Damn.

On a positive... it's comforting to know that everything that is happening with W I've read happens commonly in sitches like this. What I'm going through is not unique and people have become better through this and some even saved their Ms. There is a way through this. Even today can get better.

[Wonka]

HP,

You did GREAT with the phone convo with W. Stay the course. Yep, there will be times that W will spew, scream, push your buttons, and push you to do things that you wouldn't ordinarily do otherwise.

Unfortunately, yes, there will be weeks and possibly months of this until your W realizes that she cannot and will not be able to breech your boundary.

Stay strong, buddy!

[HPoirot]

HP,

You did GREAT with the phone convo with W. Stay the course. Yep, there will be times that W will spew, scream, push your buttons, and push you to do things that you wouldn't ordinarily do otherwise.

Unfortunately, yes, there will be weeks and possibly months of this until your W realizes that she cannot and will not be able to breech your boundary.

Stay strong, buddy!

Thank you so much Wonka and everyone else here. I'm glad I didn't panic or pursue my W this morning. In fact, it never crossed my mind to. When W started stomping and slammed the door... I was surprised and felt a little fear but I was ready thanks to you, DB/DR, and this wonderful board. All I showed was calm, unafraid, better me. Ice cold showers help prepare for spew.

It's interesting to hear she feels I'm "centered and focused," I have a life, and that I'm not falling apart like she said she expected. She said something like "I don't give an F where I go but I call you to tell you where I'm going!" I know she's miserable and I see her falling apart and I know I can't and will not go to help her.

I do not have to like this. I just have to do this.

Feeling a little better now. Off to enjoy my day working on my business in a nice peaceful coffee shop. I'm going to act as if the rest of my day will be great.

Thank you again all. Until the next episode.

Onward.

[Pink17]

Hi HP,
I am new here, need to learn a lot for myself.
But, looks like you are starting to know yourself a little better and have some self worth too.
Regarding your wife, just a tough... You said that OM was all so secure and a great guy and have a better financial situation... so why is your W right by his side yet? Why they did not move in together? For sure it's not S11 that's holding her.
All over these boards we hear that sometimes the WAS find that the grass is not as green on the other side of the fence, even Michelle writes about this. Maybe the slamming doors and screaming are not all to you, but her frustration that the OM is not giving her much. If her A is not going so well as she was thinking it would, then she will blow her frustration on you. Maybe you need to read the DR again.
I see you get some good advises here, listen to them, don't buy in all what your wife is saying to you. As a girl, I would say try to find ways she can find comfort in you. It's not about you right now, you will work on yourself and do your GAL for yourself then you can become a better person with or without your W. But about the R, do things without words, look into her eyes when talking to her, when she wants to talk to you and she start shaking as you mention, make a cup of tea and offer her. We girls are very strong, we can do it all just by ourselves, but we need to know that we can rely our deepest fears in our H, being her friend doesn't mean kissing her A** right now, it may be just showing her you care.
As I said, I am not a vet, and I am just learning a lot of this R issues.
I read a story on the successful stories in this forum from a guy that even helped his wife with boxes and stuff to her new place because she had an A and things were working pretty good w/OM, H maintained a good friendly R with her and he was also there when things started falling apart, he was there to show that love, M, R is much more then passion alone.
Hope you have peace in your heart to stop a little and think all possibilities.
Blessings.
Pink

[HPoirot]

Hello Pink17. Thank you for keeping up with my sitch. Count on me to read your posts and offer any support I can.

Honestly, my wife has said so many things I cannot be sure where her head is and I'm actively not looking to figure that out. She shows she feels shame, guilt, and confusion about her A. It seems OM lives in another city and is only in my area during the week. Other than that, if I think too much about her A I get so angry that I backslide so I'll leave that there.

I'll tell you Pink17, I have made mistakes in how I approach W. I am still learning.

At first, when I discovered her A... I thought is was a long distance A because of the man's area code and the amount and time of texts. I was firm but very kind and supportive of her when she showed remorse and said she would end it. I did not put a time limit on her doing that. I treated her lovingly just as you describe looking for ways to fill her "love tank." A part of me, though, was screaming how could I treat W so kind and sleep next to her when she's in a A. I know her and she wants a man who leads. I could not image she would ever have me as an H again if I kept acting like her BFF. I did not feel I was defending my family and I allowed my self-respect to suffer. I got angry and started to push with my OM boundary mission. She responded with threats to separate.

I still struggle with the right balance of care and distance. I see I tend to either soothe her or shut her down. I learning to just stay still and mind my own business. But, since we live together and she is constantly wanting to communicate and feel some comfort and cooperation from me, I have to decide how to be with her that works for my goal and be be consistent with it.

In this phase, then, with her still not wanting to drop OM but asking me everyday for cooperation, conversation, feedback, even warmth... I'm going with "we are not friends." I will be polite even businesslike... not initiate talks... not engage in R talks... not go to MC... essentially not follow her plan while she's in her A. This is for me and my sanity. It is also admittedly b/c I want her to know I'm simply not tolerating her A. Finally, I understand backing away from her and acting "as if" I'm done and moving on is the only way she'll ever look in my direction.

For example... after her screaming this morning and usual threat to move out... she texted an apology and has texted me twice since asking me about plans for Thanksgiving. Day after Thanksgiving she had planned to "be away" in another city near here to go shopping with "friends" (something she has never done and didn't offer to tell me about). Now, she asking about what I planed to do with our S11 that day because she has now made a plan with him. She also asked what I would like to do for Thanksgiving because as she says... "I would like to make dinner with you and the boy." I have not responded to either text as they are not emergencies. I'm still not sure if I'm taking this stepping away from her too far by not answering her random attempts to get me to respond.

In fact, I really don't like any of this. It all feels like playing games when part of me wants to just shake her and point out all the obvious flaws in what she's thinking. She asks me "What do you think we should do? How can we do this?" I have to fight not to give her my opinions and fixes. But that is my problem thinking and I'm seeing it is the wrong wrong wrong way to approach this. Nothing will get fixed today... her mind will not change today... but could she be realizing how much family she'll miss out on now that her "sweet H" who made her feel so nice just yesterday is going out all night to who knows where... does not immediately answer her call... and is centered and focused like he's going somewhere with a plan while she is sick, suffering, and falling apart? What happens if she climbs in bed tonight and her H kindly explains she was right that while she is disrespecting our M she shouldn't sleep in our bed?

I really don't want to find out. I really don't want any of this. I should be working and enjoying my day right now but I'm still here mired in this sitch.

I don't have to like this. I just have to do this.

Yes, when I start typing I can't stop. I really helps me so thank you for your comments Pink17. I am happy to answer your, or anyone else's, questions.

Good luck to you.

[Vanilla]

HP

Calm

Breathe

You are doing great

Let W take all the actions now. Don't get in the way. Stand, stand, stand.

You are more centred

Sending you strength

Vanilla

[Pink17]

I really like your answer HP, do you see how far have you came. Even with a lot of pain, you know what you want and need, you set your boundaries, you are respecting yourself a lot more. It's very positive for you as you are also in this journey to grow into a person you want to be.
Be proud of yourself.
And all the folks here are right, stand, stand, be patient, patient and later be more patient, let W do whatever wrong she needs now. She is confused, fogged, she can't understand herself.
In my sitch you can see that H is doing all so great for himself and yet when he left he house on 10/31 I asked him to give me some time and space and just communicate if urgent, he did text and call every day, even invited me to go out for a drink and talk about us... well, I did not like that but was also every single opportunity to show him I am not broken and I respect myself enough to not fall apart, and he can see I still love him but I will go on with my life. At first, I tough he was going crazy w/his attitude towards me, then reading some LaBug posts I realized that since I am changing he is reacting to this and it makes him to have all kinds of feelings. It's the hardest thing I ever did in my life, but it's also my decision to rescue my M, so I need to swallow my pride for now and do the hard work.
Be also patient with yourself, be kind, gentle... please, take care of yourself, don't go out and let the pain take the best of you. Maybe try to schedule some time for the pain to hit you hard and have most of the day to enjoy who you are, your son, the good memories of playing with him, they grow up fast, so enjoy this kind of love too.
Do some good for other people, at this time of the year there are lots of things to volunteer that will make you feel great and not think too much about your W crazy world. Surround yourself with hope and good stuff, it make you feel great and your W will see that too. She will appreciate the kind of man you have become.
There are many different kinds of love and they are as important as the one from our H/W. It is just a tough, like I said I am new here, but I read DB and DR and found that it all comes from within us, so if we feel good, it will spread around us too.
I didn't ask H about Thanksgiving, I am taking the boys to the mountains. He took his decision to screw this family so stick by your decision and let us built our new traditions. It's a family holiday, and as far as I understand he does not want to be part of this family anymore and I will not give him this pleasure, he won't have both worlds. Maybe he will think about what he is doing, maybe not, but at least I am doing what my heart and brain feels right.
Good luck, take good care after yourself and your son.
Pink

[HPoirot]

Thank you Vanilla and Pink for your encouragement. I can see that I've come far since my first frantic angry post here. I choose to accept that truth as 25 and Wonka have warned me of my tendency to be negative and ignore positives. While maybe I shouldn't need reassurance that what I'm doing with the everyone's help here is the right thing... it does help so much. Whenever a you or a vet or anyone here says nice work... I feel immensely grateful and it gives me more strength to take the next step. I can do this with your help. Thank you so much.

Like Wonka and Starsky suggested, I am putting away all the love language work and focusing on pulling back from W. It just occurred to me that I'm now acting somewhat like she has acted towards me... not meeting my needs, being polite at best (though I will always be polite), ending conversations, hanging up the phone, not initiating conversations, not comforting, not reassuring, not being available, not reaching out. Honestly, I'm afraid of pushing her right out the door with this. She reacted so strongly to just a few minutes of my pull back. Usually I would have pursued and smoothed it over to keep her close... to keep filling her love tank which I was enjoying.

But then she texts and apology and that she wants to make Thanksgiving dinner with me and the boy? Like how I did when she pulled back... is this her looking to smooth things over? Like you were saying Pink... how your H started to react to you once you told him to stop contacting you. I have to admit... I hope she tries to budge me off my boundary with a show of nudity and/or an offer of sex. I will of course reject her but still...

...

I've spent the entire day out the house. I have not responded to W 2 texts about Thanksgiving. She said the NC on texts and phone calls over the past couple days really bothered her. When I told her explicitly to stop contacting me she still did. She cried and said she was worried... didn't know if I was dead in a ditch. She also made a point to mention how busy I've been a couple times over the past few days. She mentioned it in her screaming this morning and in her text later today... "Since you are so busy lately (and I am very happy for you about that)..." That just confirms what I already know... what I am doing is working in terms of I am really GALing and it shows.

Bonus is I've found a great place to sit and get free internet. A nice warm visitors center with lots of sunlight and people milling around. It helps not feeling so sad about not being at home on this cold day. I would prefer to be home with my boy. I can get better spending longer time around my W now that I am backing off. She will likely just go to our room and close the door. I really am afraid it will be too much for her to see me so distant. I think she will take it as a personal attack and leave the house. She's so sensitive about being judged about this A. So afraid what others would think of her decisions she said once. I can't, though, bend over backwards to make her comfortable in the house like before. This is the reality... her H will not tolerate or accept what she's doing. I am not her friend.

At the same time... I think about what 25 has been getting me to understand about feeling empathy towards my W. I have experienced her sitch through my own A.

It seems like 2 very different approaches to interacting with W.

How can I bridge my pulling back and enforcing my boundary around her A with feeling empathy and caring for my W?

If you know, can you please let me know?

And I still have to deal with my inviting her back into the bed. Our talk yesterday really seemed to sit well with her. She felt safe to come back to bed and was dumbfounded by my pulling back today. I'll have to practice what to say if she comes to bed again. I would be surprised if she did after pulling back today.

I'm tired. I still have to work on my business. Had a few very lonely moments today. Looking for a holiday support group. Growing in ways I never imagined.

Time to go home.

[25yearsmlc]

Thank you LisaB, Wonka, Starsky, Vanilla, and all of you for checking in on me. I am exhausted like I fought a battle today.

But I did it.

Today, while W and I talked, I was better me.

I'm too tired to do my usual book length post, so I will try to summarize and fill in more tomorrow.

Funny thing... she showed up early today... soon after I wrote my last post. I did not get a chance to see all your great advice for the talk.

She looked tired and miserable. She asked to talk immediately. I said OK. I was not feeling friendly yet as I was not ready.

Our first talk was tense and logistical. She wanted to talk about moving to a new apartment together to save money this year. She wanted to talk about the email where she laid out her ideas for the next few months until summer when she thinks she may get her own apartment (depending on money).

I basically calmly said, you're making these choices, it's up to you. I got up and walked away. She stayed sitting and didn't say anything.

I went upstairs and got centered. I remembered the enpathy post I wrote. I really tried to see things from her point of view. I didn't plan to go back downstairs... but after a few minutes I did.

I'm glad.

She was still sitting in the kitchen, her arms folded on the kitchen table and her head down on them. I walked over to the other side of the table. I do not remember what I said. Something about "I don't understand."

Then we had a second talk. It was both wonderful and horrible. We actually connected a little at the end.

She said a lot of things about how she's feeling. Lots of information to work with.

But mainly, she came at getting MC from every possible way. You were right Wonka.

She wished someone was there with us to mediate. Someone to help her say everything she wants to say without hurting me. She wanted to make the appointment today.

She wanted...
Someone to tell her if she should work on our M.
Someone to find out how we could be better people and maybe then work on the M.
Someone to help us learn to co-parent.
Someone to help us be friends again.
Someone to help her explain her thing with OM.
And other things.

She came at it in so many ways trying to get around my boundary. Like she wanted me to allow the A go on and go to MC to talk about it.

Hmm, I don't get that^^ feeling from what you said, she said she wanted. She SAID she wanted reasons to fight for the marriage and I sure wish you had then and there, given that to her. Like some belief that YOU Would do your work too, not just all on her.

Let's not forget the A you had, that she still does not know about...

Even so, every time I say something like... You're absolutely right W. We need MC. And it's non-negotiable for me... your A must end. I said it directly, calmly, even lovingly. I was that way the whole time. I felt great.


Glad you were calm. Really!

But I'm NOT so sure why you insist on something she won't do...and maybe the others can explain this to me. WHY not go to MC?

Sure sure, most MC's don't help. I agree. THAT part, I get.

But is there some other reason? See, for ME, making a condition that she end the A first, is odd b/c you have not really given her many reasons FOR staying married given the way you both acted like platonic friends and NOT like mates act. You TOLD her once that the OW was your real love or "epic love" or something along those lines, correct?

I used her words... "like you said W... your heart is in another place... distracted. And in MC we should be both in there with no distractions."


Fair enough...if you only use these^^ terms I can buy it. Otherwise it seems punitive AND worse, unlikely to succeed.

On our second talk, she cried a lot. She started crying when she said she was deeply hurt when I did not answer her texts and phone calls.

When I talked about how we're not friends anymore, she talked at length and passionately about how important our friendship is to her and how she can't lose it.

I managed to praise her for being brave enough to tell me she didn't love me.


I don't buy this. To me, you are cementing something she probably did not mean.
OR holding her to something and "calling the bluff" and making this a prideful thing.

Why do that?

That I was grateful for this time to grow and that I've learned a lot. She asked if I was still in my on-line support group. I said yes... I've made some amazing friends there and they pulled be back from the brink because I immediately wanted to "divorce your ass" (exact words I used). She really smiled and said she was so happy I made good friends (thank you everyone).

She said, even if she packed up her bags tomorrow, she loves me. She said me and our S11 are her #1 priority. When I said don't worry about me, she cries all I worry about is you.

At one point she said "I should just stay and fix the M." She said that 4 times in a row. Of course she said it in a resigned voice.


Why didn't you affirm this at all? Seriously....why? Dig deep and see what role, if any, pride played.

She also said things like she can't give me what I want. I asked her what she thinks I want. She said to say I want to fix the M. I admitted... of course I would love you to say that. But I know you don't feel that way.


she is obviously conflicted as her above comments show. Why confirm the negatives like how she "does not love" you AND then this, "I know you don't feel that way". Part of her does!

You are your own person. I know I cannot change your mind and I do not want to. All I can do is make a place you may want to come back to one day I said.

She said some very interesting things. She said, if she made the decision to walk away, that she did not expect to be happy. She expected to be miserable for years. When I said, I know you don't want to be with me, she said she didn't want to be with anyone.

if I could get you to change one thing, the "I know you don't want to love ME" type of comments would be it. Please stop cementing the negatives and ignoring the openings she gives you for some leadership.


She mentioned a previous EA that was just for conversation with a friend from high school. She mentioned that she doesn't know OM... he's just a stranger and she just wants to feel like a woman and get her needs met.

What are those needs, or did you ask? Do you feel you know them?


She cried how I'm a good man. She asked how we could live together?. How she was disrespecting me and how doing so could she sleep in bed with me?
---

So basically a lot of the thoughts swirling around in her mind. She did almost all of the talking. She did not get angry at all. She was nice and even loving to me. She also shook the whole time. Sometimes tapping and even hitting her head. She looked terribly unhappy.

Then I said... let's stop here. I have a lot to do today. Thank you for talking And I got up to walk away.

Then I turned and said as terrible as this has been, I have enjoyed some of the talks we've had since BD. She brightened and agreed. I said we've haven't been close like this in years. I said this is intimacy you know... talking like this. If we didn't care about each other... this wouldn't be so hard. She really smiled then and said yes you're right. I felt some nice connection then.

This ^^ is sort of beautiful...maybe "Bittersweet" is a better term. I know it's bitter but there are surely some sweet pieces in there too.

And I got stupid.

I said, "and you're invited back to the bed."


---

Nothing was decided in our talk.

While she said multiple times she really really wants MC and she really wants to be friends no matter what, I did lovingly make clear multiple times...

While she is in A there will be no MC.
While she is in A we are not friends.
If she ends our M in this A we will never be friends again.


IF the marriage ends, you do know it's not BECAUSE of OM. You are being punitive and hypocritical here. You had an affair and if I recall right, YOU did not end it, OW did.

Unlike your w, you were not honest about it. So now you are "never" going to be friends with her if she remains honest and sees OM and the m ends. EVEN though you also said you know he's "just the symptom and Not the cause".

Does this really ring true and honest and right to you? All of it? Guess we can disagree. Because I really do. I'm open to hearing the reasoning behind all these conditions you give her but which were NOT given to you, and yet you still returned to the m.

--

She never said anything about divorce. She was never definitive about not being able to fix our M. In fact, once she corrected a definite "I can't get it back" with a "I don't know if I can get it back." She also said, in her soul she thinks it's too late for us. W always said she thinks.


Did you ever say something to encourage her to believe you two COULD be good again?

Doesn't matter though... I don't believe 100% of what she says.

Then she left to go to work. She said "thank you for talking" and smiled her tired smile.

I said "yeah, " and walked away.

So I wrote a book again. I am so tired.

What a day. I feel good about it. Would love to know what you think. If you're where I am, I hope you learned something. You don't have to play your WAS's game. Listen to the advice here.
---

[HPoirot]

Hello 25. Thank you so much for your post. I really value your advice and what you're talking about is exactly where I feel most stuck.

Hmm, I don't get that^^ feeling from what you said, she said she wanted. She SAID she wanted reasons to fight for the marriage and I sure wish you had then and there, given that to her. Like some belief that YOU Would do your work too, not just all on her.

Let's not forget the A you had, that she still does not know about...

...

At one point she said "I should just stay and fix the M." She said that 4 times in a row. Of course she said it in a resigned voice.


Why didn't you affirm this at all? Seriously....why? Dig deep and see what role, if any, pride played.

You're right... there have been times in our sitch were it seems like I could give her reasons or affirm what she's saying. She does seem to be asking me to lead. I'm focused, though, on listening and validating her. Many times in our talk I wanted to tell her "yes, we can do exactly what you're saying. We can do it!" A couple times I did cheer us on but not loudly over her words. She says she feels deep in her soul it's too late for us. At the same time, she says we have a bond and she loves me and I'm her #1 priority. I am torn and confused between just taking her by the hand and leading her when she gives me an opening and just validating everything she says she feels so she can feel heard and accepted by me.

She also said things like she can't give me what I want. I asked her what she thinks I want. She said to say I want to fix the M. I admitted... of course I would love you to say that. But I know you don't feel that way.


she is obviously conflicted as her above comments show. Why confirm the negatives like how she "does not love" you AND then this, "I know you don't feel that way". Part of her does!

Again you are right. I was not aware I was confirming negatives here. I was using her words to show I was hearing her. This is a skill I want to learn... to validate her without agreeing with her or confirming her negatives while speaking with her under pressure. I'm careful not to appear like I am convincing her of anything. One of her big complains in all her life is not being heard or valued. I'm working to show her I hear and value her and see I can do much better without agreeing with her negatives.

She mentioned a previous EA that was just for conversation with a friend from high school. She mentioned that she doesn't know OM... he's just a stranger and she just wants to feel like a woman and get her needs met.

What are those needs, or did you ask? Do you feel you know them?

I do feel I know them after all our talks. Most of all she wants the emotional connection. She said if we had the life we have now with an emotional connection that she would want that. Someone to hear her, value her, and make her feel safe through consistency of character. She also wants an interesting life... a man who is challenging. I did not think to ask her about that here. I noticed she can tell when I'm fishing for info on what I can do for her to feel love for me and that will irritate her and disrupt her talking. She'll say "I'm not going to get into that."

IF the marriage ends, you do know it's not BECAUSE of OM. You are being punitive and hypocritical here. You had an affair and if I recall right, YOU did not end it, OW did.

Unlike your w, you were not honest about it. So now you are "never" going to be friends with her if she remains honest and sees OM and the m ends. EVEN though you also said you know he's "just the symptom and Not the cause".

Does this really ring true and honest and right to you? All of it? Guess we can disagree. Because I really do. I'm open to hearing the reasoning behind all these conditions you give her but which were NOT given to you, and yet you still returned to the m.

Yes, I know none of this is because of OM. Yes I fear I am being punitive. My A fizzled out in time because I did not pursue it. After our initial time together, my OW made efforts to get close to my location. (she lived overseas at the time.) The couple times she did, I did not go to see her in return. Time went by, we fell out of touch, and the A died. I did, though, talk at length with my W about OW. Everything except the A. My W was not honest about her A... a stranger that she never mentioned meeting. I had to snoop and confront her and even after she continued lying about him. That I horribly allowed to fuel my anger and push her away with boundaries.

And that, 25, is where I'm so confused and afraid. I have seen other sitches were the LBH firmly and lovingly communicated to the WAW that he was not tolerating the A. That he would leave if it continued because he respected himself too much to tolerate it. He made a stand with his changes and a boundary that showed he cared about himself and the M and that he wanted his wife was willing to fight for her.

One of the complaints my W has is I let her stay in her hometown, away from me, for months a few years ago. When she asked if I wanted her to come home, I said she should stay. I thought I was being supportive letting her stay with her mother and family for a while. She took it as I couldn't care less if she stays or go. Once, years ago, she said she was afraid that is she wasn't around I wouldn't care. That's were I'm working from now... taking a stand against OM and her A partially to show her that I DO CARE if she stays or goes. I want her. I want our marriage.

Then I listen to your words about empathy and I like them. I know they are right. I saw, from the W discussion yesterday and all other discussions like them that her and I do have beautiful moments. It happens when she feels heard and accepted. I do not want to push her away. I want to hold her and tell her I understand. That I trust her. That I believe her when she says me and our boy are her number 1 priority. I saw how upset she was this morning when I pulled back after our connection yesterday. I know she felt punished and judged. But How can this work if I'm friendly H who sits back and lets an OM come into his M without protest and consequences? How can she trust me with her life and her son if she sees me as the sort of man who appeases her as an A goes on?

I don't know how to bridge leading her like she seems to want with all her questions and openings and asking me for feedback with showing her empathy. I know OM is not the issue ... but I'm to just sit back and understand while this man wines and dines and grows closer to my W which makes her happy, confused, and causes her suffering?

I want to encourage her all day long. I want her in my bed talking with me. I want to see her laugh and smile at me. We've had some nice bittersweet beautiful moments and some awful awful moments. It seems when I frustrate her by standing up for myself, she gets mad and apologizes and eventually responds positively to that. And when I'm understanding and validating and listening, she responds to that too. She's noticed all my changes and likes them. I have all these positives but they're all over the place. I'm not being coherent and consistent. I can do this for months... years... as long as it takes... if I can be consistent and coherent.

How can I pull what you 25 say about empathy and what Starsky/Wonka/Sandi say about being a decisive, attractive, non tolerating of crap behavior man?

How can I pull back and show her I won't tolerate her OM, I believe in and want to renew our M, and show her the love and empathy I have for her all at once?

I am really in great pain on this question. I feel, if I can get the above right and do it consistently when interacting with W, then I will be a man she can fall in love with again. I will be better me.

Thank you again so much 25. You are a wonderful person.

[Vanilla]

HP

Your A with OW, your W may know more than you think she does or she may suspect.

I am not quite sure how to express this other than the elephant in the room.

It may be something that ultimately you have to acknowledge. 25 is very wise in this.

Peace
Calm
Vanilla

[HPoirot]

HP

Your A with OW, your W may know more than you think she does or she may suspect.

I am not quite sure how to express this other than the elephant in the room.

It may be something that ultimately you have to acknowledge. 25 is very wise in this.

Peace
Calm
Vanilla

Yes my W certainly knows I was not over my OW (a friend I grew up with and had a romance with as a very young man) many years ago. My W teased me after I got back from seeing her... "I know you kissed her. If I were you I would have slept with her." I never said my OW was my epic love. My W, though, is a romantic. From my talking to my W about my OW and the love we had as youngsters... my W started to say she's my "one who got away." Just from how I described her. It was my fault for bringing her memory into our M. My W is extremely empathic. So much so she fears she gives too much to others.. that she loses herself in others. She gave a lot of herself to me... carried and cared for me when I was depressed. She knows me better than I know myself. I have said to my W a couple times during this sitch... "considering what happened between me on OW, I was the last one to talk" when we discussed my W's A. My W has also brought my OW up a couple times to say she is really the one for me... someone like me who could make me happy. She knows how I felt about OW. I would not be at all surprised if my W knew the rest.

[HPoirot]

Looks like my W will save me the trouble of kicking her out of my bed tonight...

We just had the one bad face to face interaction this morning. The stomping and the separation threat. The screaming over the phone. Me hanging up on her. She later apologized and sent me 2 texts. I eventually did respond. She came home tonight. Her back was really hurting her. She looked miserable. I made peace with her a little... warmly welcomed her. She had found a book I was looking for. I sincerely thanked her. She brightened a little. She snapped at our son getting him ready for bed. She now has the couch set up with her blanket and pillow and is watching her Good Wife show.

Sometimes I'm so sure I'm on the right track. Just keep her engaged. Validate. Listen. Light conversation. Make her laugh. Then I snooped. Got mad. Gave her my drop OM or our friendship boundary. Gave her my drop OM or no MC boundary. Connected with her by showing her empathy while telling her we're not friends. Had a beautiful bittersweet moment. Pulled way away from her making her angry. Left the house all day. And now I'm here. In a hole.

I can find the right way to get this back on track. If I knew what back on track looked like now. What is my goal everyday now? To pull back. Just enough so she's not angry and hurt? I don't know.

I'm tired.

I didn't have the heart tonight to tell her she was right about not sleeping in our bed anyway.

I'm not seeing the positives right now. I took my sleeping pills. I'm sure W took hers. I will go to sleep. Things will look better in the morning.

What can I do tomorrow to climb out of this hole? Thank you. Good night.

[Maybell]

Go back to the books. STUDY the goals chapter. Study the cheeseless tunnel chapter. Figure out one mode of behavior, evaluate, and adjust accordingly. The way I'm reading you you're trying all the options at once. That won't work. You've got to be more consistent or your W will never know what she's getting when she's dealing with you.

What are your priorities?

[Zues126]

Your mood changes day by day. Multiple times.
Her mood changes day by day. Multiple times.
The sooner you stop worrying about the moods she is in, or the mood you are in. The sooner you stop letting changes in her mood create changes in your mood. Then, the sooner you will be able to be the man you want to be.

I'm all about reflecting, growing, and becoming more the person you want to be. So I'm not saying being aware of how what you're doing impacts you W altogether is wrong. The idea is to 'do what works'. But that should be a recurring reflection, not an ongoing fixation. Go with be flow and relax. That's why my thread is called 'enjoying the ride'...

[NH115]

I know why... because I believe he is solid in his confidence. I've seen his profile on line... I know who he is. He is successful in his mind and so he is internally happy. One of his first emails to W was his resume. It is impressive. He has a high visibility job. He sent W a recording of a (confidential) financial conference he did to impress her. He knows to show her his belief in his ability and how that shows up in the world. He likely likes himself and believes in what he does. While my resume is impressive and my work affects millions and enables millions for the company I work for, I have not believed in my work. I am not impressed or excited by the results of my work. I do not believe in or am engaged with in the company I work for. Before now, I would work all day lazily in my bathrobe. W said a couple weeks ago, when I was a consultant with my own business (when she met me), I was energetic, interesting, and impactful. She's all about impactful. OM is a Who's Who board member type. A social person. And he's older. W likes men who can be father figure like. She used to call me Daddy when we really ML (I never liked that btw). That's where I must to get back to... for my own mental health. Just being impactful in my thoughts, attitude, appearance, and life. It starts by me making choices to be happy.

This sounds like my sitch as well. My wife's OM radiates positivity, he's more successful in his career than I am, he's confident. My W found that incredibly attractive in him and not coincidentally found me very lacking in those qualities. Now I KNOW that I'm a better man because I wouldn't run around on my W the way he is, but that inconvenient truth isn't impressive to W.

Work on yourself, not to outshine the OM, but to outshine yourself. She'll either notice and sign back on with you or she won't.

[HPoirot]

Journaling...

Unfortunately woke up at 3am. Now I can't go back to sleep.

I hear W moving around downstairs. I am resisting the urge to go down and talk with her. I feel like just holding her and convincing her and telling her it will all be alright right now. I know I can't. I really want to.

This back and forth up and down is very painful. I'm trying hard to not show her that I'm in pain. Keeping busy and GAL helps... but then I get moments like now when I'm so shaky and hopeless and I feel like giving up. That and I really still don't want to GAL. I'm forcing myself to GAL.

Funny, I felt so strong yesterday morning. Even hopeful after our talk the other day. Now...

And she's downstairs right now awake too. What is she thinking? Trying to be empathic now. I can't imagine. Wondering how she got here. She says that often... "how did we get here?" She says she would be miserable if she left our M. She does seem to give all these opening where I can jump in and just say "this is what we're going to do." She even keeps asking me... "This is so hard... what are we going to do?" I've learned that this is her talking... a rhetorical question. She just wants to be heard not fixed. But still...

I'm like everyone here... looking at anything she says that I can use as leverage. Like 25 was saying... I want to jump on those things she says that give us hope and encourage them. When she says something she doesn't want to do, like hurt me or hurt her son... I want to say "Then don't." She's so miserable. She can just let me help her.

My W has talked before about being saved and protected. I want to save her... to give her a reason to make a choice she won't regret. Should I just ask her... what do you need to see to stay and fix our M. I've already asked her in some ways. She just says "I won't get into that." I should just know and do it. Fix our financial issues. Ask for her help with that. Move us to a cheaper place. Show her that things are getting better.

We're both so tired.

She said yesterday, when I pulled back, "This is a far cry from where we were yesterday (after we talked)." She seemed so much to like that we connected. Does she really expect me to keep doing that while her heart is in an A? I know her main desire is an emotional connection. That is what she gets in her A. And she gets mad when I don't connect... but is open to when I do.

Today then I'm doing more pull back while being careful not to appear angry or sad or holier than thou. I'm going to focus my mind and good things like my son and building my business what I like about her.

She just seems to want my cooperation and support so bad. Shows she's hurt when she thinks I'm not speaking with her. But, she's in an A and she won't stop! What is she expecting? For me to be like our separated neighbor that she keeps bringing up? Nice guy smiling sadly who just seems to be agreeable that is family fell apart and his W moved out?

Sounds like I'm fighting reality. I understand that's were pain comes from. I really hate this.

Going to try to sleep now. Will just go to the kitchen first. Maybe see if she's awake.

[Vanilla]

HP
It's called cake eating I believe. Or keeping options open.

Go back to DR reread as advised.

There is a real difference between you and W. You are standing for your M and to keep your family together. You are changing, true oscillating around the mean curve but that will settle.

HP truly know that strength comes from inside you, from channeling with an open heart the love that you gather. It does not come from wealth, a great job, good car, large bank account, swanky clothes or an online profile. This is transititory, any OM or OW who needs a partner who is M is trying to boost their own ego. They want the ego boost. They reduce their insecurity and they are not personally powerful at all. They are like the wizard in the Wizard of Oz, weak and lacking.
Tell me: who is more powerful an OM like that or a H who has boundaries and knows his own mind?
No need to answer this, you KNOW.
go GAL instead of soothing W. Let her turmoil and come to her own decisions. She will anyway.
Enjoy today
Vanilla

[LisaB]

Like Wonka and Starsky suggested, I am putting away all the love language work and focusing on pulling back from W. It just occurred to me that I'm now acting somewhat like she has acted towards me... not meeting my needs, being polite at best (though I will always be polite), ending conversations, hanging up the phone, not initiating conversations, not comforting, not reassuring, not being available, not reaching out. Honestly, I'm afraid of pushing her right out the door with this. She reacted so strongly to just a few minutes of my pull back. Usually I would have pursued and smoothed it over to keep her close... to keep filling her love tank which I was enjoying.

HP, this struck a huge chord with me!

I read something on my thread or someone else's thread or in a book a while ago. Something like "If you look back before BD, things were not so great. Maybe you were even thinking of leaving. But then once the bomb dropped, you were desperate to make things work."

I don't know about you, but in some ways this was true for me.

One of the things you have been asking is whether you pulling away will upset her so that she pulls away as well. I don't know. But if you look at what happens around most BD, when the WAS drops the bomb that they are unhappy and leaving, the other suddenly wants them to stay more than anything else in the world.

I guess what I am trying to say is that when she pulled away, you desperately clung. When you pull away, probably it won't push her away - she will likely cling.

Maybe I'm wrong but this seems to be a typical pattern with some of us.

I think the key part (that I have been struggling with) is what to do when you pull away and she clings. Do you keep pulling away? Do you react in a calm and validating manner but not come closer? Do you meet her part way?

Good luck HP!
Hugs,
Lisa

[HPoirot]

Thank you Vanilla and LisaB for your comments. LisaB I'm sure you're right about pulling away leaving the WAS with space to come closer. Honesty though, I'm getting to the point were I'm more pulling away just for me... for my own life and my own future. And thank you Vanilla again for your support. I want to have a good day and I'm going to try to.

W and I did have a few R talks this morning. They weren't horrible. I only made a few pursuit mistakes. I did talk about how I everything negative between us can be addressed. She agreed but didn't think she wanted to. She talked about figuring out if she wanted to try. She brought up the need for MC. I said I very much wanted MC and wished I could make the appointment today. She said she was going back to her IC b/c she didn't feel she was making progress. Nothing changed. I'm not getting sucked into these talks again.

She did, though, describe my GALing and new social life as very positive change for myself in regards to her wanting to work on our M. She asked me specifically about one of the events I attended. I know she like details so I gave them.

More importantly, we talked about fixing our immediate financial worries and getting a new apartment together. So in that way we can work in a businesslike manner. We talked about the future... maybe moving together to the next state over for the better schools. We ended it friendly. She gave me a hug.

I'm caring less and less about what she says.

In any case, she says today she's going to drop S11 at his friends house and then go to her mastermind business group in the near suburbs and then to her office downtown to work. I say fine... I'm not to ask about where she goes but she offers anyway.

Ten minutes after she leaves, she calls and said for me to go walk and get S11 at 2. I say I planned to be by her office at lunch. Would she like to join me? I admit this was a test. She stumbled... said she wasn't planning on going to her office now. I said ok no problem I'll go to lunch anyway, see you later, and hung up.

A minute later she calls back. She stumbled around an explanation saying she was going by her office now to get her computer. Then she would stay out in the burbs to work. She planned to also meet her girlfriend out there. For some reason, she asked if I needed the truck... offered to come home and leave the truck with me. Then she would take the bus to the burbs. I accepted her offer of the truck to see what would happen. Then she changes like she didn't expect me to accept. She says she didn't know I had plans for the truck. That since yesterday I was away all day today was "her day" and she had made plans today. She sounded upset and flustered. I almost said sure bring the truck home like you offered and take the bus or I'll drive you out there. She went back and forth with her explanation... me telling her don't worry about it... I had no plans... she offered and I though it would have been nice to have the truck. I said, if she was in her office when I go get S11, at 2 that she should let me know. Maybe we could all get a bite to eat together. She said she didn't think she'd be in her office then. I told her to let me know... enjoy her time and hung up.

She is still lying. She is going to see OM. I'm starting to recognize when she does... when she goes overboard explaining her plans. She will probably bring home something she (or he) bought out where she was supposed to be.

Even so, nothing then has changed. I'm DBing so I let this go. I let her keep believing I have no real idea about what she does. That I'm the clueless guy working hard but in vain to save his M. Part of me, though, would prefer she know that I know everything. My need not to feel like the clueless chump watching her son while she plays. I could be wrong about her. I feel awful anyway. I really don't know what to do with this. I know I need to stop giving her the idea that I'm working to save this M with her.

And I see this is why you don't pay too much attention to what WAS is doing. It is maddening and painful. Just accept it and move on. The best I can do today is to make my financial plans come true. I do need the financial pressure to go down and me doing that is one step closer to the life I want for myself.

I'm not going to ask her about her day later. I want to though.

[Vanilla]

HP
Stand, observe and detach from the behaviour.

This still means you care, love and want W. I know detaching is very hard, because as you can see from my thread there is a great deal of spewing and venom, lies and deceit too.

But it does mean that centre you are finding in HP is becoming a stronger force. It is working for HP. I have observed that the more I attend to the crazies in H that the wilder the drama gets and the more it causes me to unravel.


The minute I stopped reacting back but stood my ground, the calmer everything became. The more reasonable grounded and centred I am , then the more H crazies are uncovered to H.

H this is what I want. No MC whilst your drinking is out of control, no sex whilst you are drunk, and I will cook fish, I will go GAL, I will wear makeup ( thanks gg) etc
My boundaries are clearly different to yours but the principle applies I feel.

As long as you are core to HP then you are the steady cruise ship and W is the speedboat going in all directions, towards and away from you the cruise ship. You are stopping being the lifeboat following the speed boat around.

A good gal tonight for you, detatch
Vanilla

[HPoirot]

Thank you Vanilla. I'm only really starting to get detaching. I know being angry so I say I don't care isn't detaching. I'm working on that.

This week I will get what needs to get done done.

My goals everyday this week...

1. WALK AWAY FROM R TALKS
2. Love my son
3. Work productively
4. Do at least one GAL
5. Act friendly to W

Despite all her threats, for now at least we'll be moving together to a new place in January. If she leaves it will be as early as April. Time for me to get my finances together. Time for me practice being happier, centered, better me everyday. I'm caring very little right now about how W sees or reacts to my changes.

I figured out yesterday I was being too short with W when she approached me. This set her off. I can be friendly like with a co-worker. I must remember that.

That's all I'm doing related to W. Being friendly. I realize I did pursue and seek to convince W in our R talk this morning. No matter what good things she may say in return, even a little R talk is too much. I was also too empathetic like a good friend again. I am not her friend.

Also, my birthday is coming up. Sitting here now, I do not want a gift or any Holiday anything from her. I do not think, though, that this supports my goal. Even so, I can't see how I can accept or give gifts to her while she's in her A. Then again.... I want to show empathy and understanding too. I'm thinking about how to do this.

Does anyone have experience on Birthday/Holiday giving while your W is in an A to share? What a question to ask. I know... the polite thing is to get her a small gift and politely accept whatever she wants to give unless she says she's not comfortable.

Also, she brought up going to MC again today against my boundary. If she keeps pushing, I'm thinking I'll say... "You know how I feel about going to the MC we need. That's non-negotiable."

Right now... I accept W wants to separate. She is working to protect herself from pain. She sees a better life for herself elsewhere. That's her issue and it is real. I know I can't do anything about her feeling. I know time is on my side to make my life better for me.

One last thing. W and I usually watch the Walking Dead TV show together. It's the only fun thing we still do together from before BD. Now that her OM is out in the open and she has moved herself to the couch... I'm wondering if I still do this fun thing with her. She usually asks me if we'll watch together just before the show comes on. While I do not want to be the entertaining LBH with her at all, I'm thinking it would be punishing her if I say I'm not watching with her. I'm thinking I will skip watching with her and just go to bed.

What do you think?

Thank you.

[1foot2]

Skip the show. She has to know what she's losing. This is one of the counterintuitive parts of DB. If she knows it's something you usually do and looks forward to, she will notice. Don't skip it and hide elsewhere though, come up with something you need to do out of the house while it's on.

I've read your threads but I'm not too clear on why you'd get another place with her right now.

[HPoirot]

S11 is trying to call W to ask when she's coming home. She's not answering. I know I cannot confront my W about where she was today. That would be wrong. Would push her out the door. I really want to, though. I have a lot of respect for the good folks on here who have gone through this for months. I will pull it together before she comes home. Looking at my son now. He's the greatest. He and I are worth it. I will pull it together.

[sandi2]

I think when your W comes home, or whenever you hear from her, your main focus should be to not ask her questions. It will only lead to more of the same. Just let it go.

[HPoirot]

Thank you sandi. I will leave her alone. I will let it go. I will also start with an IC to help with that. I will not be hanging out with her tonight. I can only get stronger through this.

I will remember that my changing emotions hurt her too. I will remember that she has suffered much more over the years than I am today. I will remember she is not the enemy... how she feels about me is the enemy. I will remember to love her because I want her to want to be my wife again one day.

I can do this. I can do this. I can do this. I can do this.

This is looking like it's going to be one of the hardest nights of my entire life.

I need help.

[Wonka]

HP,

You are surrounded by loving energy of incredibly supportive DBers. Never fear, we've got your back!

Several posts back, you posted:

Sometimes I'm so sure I'm on the right track. Just keep her engaged. Validate. Listen. Light conversation. Make her laugh. Then I snooped. Got mad. Gave her my drop OM or our friendship boundary. Gave her my drop OM or no MC boundary. Connected with her by showing her empathy while telling her we're not friends. Had a beautiful bittersweet moment. Pulled way away from her making her angry. Left the house all day. And now I'm here. In a hole.

My Gosh! What a yo-yo, buddy! STFU...STFU...STFU...about the OM. He's nothing. Does not deserve your head space. Your W knows how you feel about the OM and knows your boundary. Even if she's like a 2-year old testing boundaries left and right.

Connected with her by showing her empathy while telling her we're not friends.

This has me really puzzled. How is it that you showed her empathy by telling her you're not friends? I'm missing something there. Care to elaborate a bit more, HP?

Sorry for the hijack, buddy, but I feel compelled to address some comments 25 made about your A and the whole MC thing. No worries...25 and I are good! As good friends here, there are bound to be some differing view points.

25,

She came at it in so many ways trying to get around my boundary. Like she wanted me to allow the A go on and go to MC to talk about it.

Hmm, I don't get that^^ feeling from what you said, she said she wanted. She SAID she wanted reasons to fight for the marriage and I sure wish you had then and there, given that to her. Like some belief that YOU Would do your work too, not just all on her.

Let's not forget the A you had, that she still does not know about...

W didn't say she wanted reasons to fight for the M. She wanted to go to MC which is an oxymoron considering that she is in an active affair. We (specifically Starsky and I) strongly advocate for ZERO MC when the WAS is in active A because they are just going through the motions so they can tell themselves that "they've tried" and they go right back to the OM/OW.

It is ineffective and utterly useless to go to MC if you know your spouse is an active A.

You keep bringing up HP's past affair. I get your main point with the seemingly "hypocritical stance" that HP takes against his W. However, HP's affair ended A WHILE AGO and now recognizes the error of his ways.

But I'm NOT so sure why you insist on something she won't do...and maybe the others can explain this to me. WHY not go to MC?

Sure sure, most MC's don't help. I agree. THAT part, I get.

But is there some other reason? See, for ME, making a condition that she end the A first, is odd b/c you have not really given her many reasons FOR staying married given the way you both acted like platonic friends and NOT like mates act. You TOLD her once that the OW was your real love or "epic love" or something along those lines, correct?

The reality on the ground RIGHT NOW is that his W is in a very active affair with the OM and she's NOT willing to break it off. It is not the case of a bad MC therapist or anything like that that I see that you're thinking of from the above comments you made.

The affair must end in order for MC to be truly effective and for the therapist to make any sort of inroads for HP & W. A third party in the MC is a non-starter. Problem with MC while in in affair is that it does the following:

-gives the appearance that the WAS "tried" and gave "their best shot" all the while they're actively involved in the A
-gives the WAS the opportunity to let down the LBS "softly" in the therapist's office
-gives them cover to work on MC in the"co-parenting" realm which ins't working on the M
-their foot is already out the door

Hope this makes sense, 25. I mean, your H went all Alaskan and didn't have an active affair, right? Please let me know if I am mistaken here.

I am curious to hear your perspective on what you think why HP "should" attend MC with his W who is involved with OM.

[HPoirot]

Hello Wonka. Thank you so much for your post and words of support. Clearly I struggled again all weekend. I'm working now to get back PMA but wow...

I know I must STFU about OM. Even in my posts here. It was hard today thinking W could have been with him and if so lied about it. She came home happy and whistling just now. I was calm and cool. No problem. We made small talk. She said she had a great day. I asked if she got much work done. She said she got none done... she got sidetracked shopping. Bought a sweater. She had been gone 7 hours... came home later than she said she would.

She also made a point to ask me about my schedule next Friday after Thanksgiving. She has a change in her plans for that day. Instead of going to Atlantic City to shop like she said... she's suddenly going to DC with a girlfriend that I don't know well to see a concert. She described the girlfriend. Told me a story about her. She says they'll get back late and she'll stay at her girlfriend's house in the far suburbs that night. She did that once before after a party a couple days after I discovered OM. She made a point to name the town her girlfriend lives in. They'll have to drive farther to her girlfriend's house than for her to get back to our home.

She also mentioned how I go out now without telling her where I go and she doesn't ask where I go so she wants to know my schedule to know when she can now go out for her GAL. So looks like now were dueling mystery GALs on the weekends.

I know (knew) her. Know her expressions. She is punishing me for being out and not answering my phone/texts. She said multiple times that my doing that hurt her. Nice.

Then she just bounced back out the door to go have drinks with another girlfriend. Didn't say where. Happily asked if I needed anything on the way out. I said No. She'll be back late tonight she says. She's in high gear. And, as she's out, she canceled our Walking Dead date before I could. Nice.

This is a game I don't want to play, can't afford to play, and can't win.

...

"Connected with her by showing her empathy while telling her we're not friends."

We had an R talk Friday morning when she got back from her trip. It was about my not going to MC like she wants while she's in her A. I also said where not friends as long as her A goes on. Even so, as I was showing empathy and not anger, the talk turned into a nice conversation where we had a nice connection at the end. That's were I invited her back to bed and that night she did sleep in our bed. It was a strange talk. No more R talks. She now sleeping back on the couch (when she's sleeping here).

...

-gives the appearance that the WAS "tried" and gave "their best shot" all the while they're actively involved in the A
-gives the WAS the opportunity to let down the LBS "softly" in the therapist's office
-gives them cover to work on MC in the"co-parenting" realm which ins't working on the M
-their foot is already out the door

Yes Wonka, I agree these are all true for her. She admits to #3 as one reason to go and when I discovered OM implied #2.

So no, even though she asks for MC almost everyday, she got my boundary from me directly and in a text so we're not getting MC now. I want to get IC though because after today I am hurting.

...

So now I really have to focus on myself and not at all on her. She is actively making it painful. She will likely be gone every Sunday to do who knows what. I will go out every Saturday to work on my business in a coffee shop and act like I had a great time. No one will answer their phones. And this will go on and on.

I really really hate this.

I just have to keep going on improving myself for myself. There's a lot I can do. And, if it helps me really detach ASAP, then I'm grateful in a way for the way she's acting.

Funny... this morning when we talked like a fool I told her I missed her.

Lesson finally learned.

...

Ha! Was about to submit this post and just got a text... She is now going away with her drinking girlfriend for an overnight on Dec 17th.

I am not seeing how I get to my goal of saving this marriage at all now. I'm glad to be growing... to be strengthened by these tests. But this is getting stupid insane.

Can I possibly save my M from here?

[LisaB]

Hi HP, it sounds like she is really pushing it. Who knows if she is really going where she says she is, or what she is up to. But be assured that the more she gets all wild and crazy the faster she will likely crash and burn. It won't be sustainable. You have to let her go on her way and try to focus on yourself right now. I know it is SO difficult but at this point you cannot control or influence her. Let her do her thing. Focus on yourself, that is the best way for this to work out in your favor.
Hugs, Lisa

[HPoirot]

Hi HP, it sounds like she is really pushing it. Who knows if she is really going where she says she is, or what she is up to. But be assured that the more she gets all wild and crazy the faster she will likely crash and burn. It won't be sustainable. You have to let her go on her way and try to focus on yourself right now. I know it is SO difficult but at this point you cannot control or influence her. Let her do her thing. Focus on yourself, that is the best way for this to work out in your favor.
Hugs, Lisa

Thank you so much Lisa. I really hope you're right. Despite my angry thrashing with my W... I do want my marriage to heal and thrive. I know I'll be a better man for this no matter what happens. I've already had amazing experiences doing this. I'm getting better at handling these low points. I'm even getting better at looking at things like 25 suggests... she on her journey... enjoying the brightness of life feeling like a teenager like I did 4 years ago. She let me go see my OW 4 years ago and took me back in when I came home. It does go against my "programming"... but I can really try to be empathic and understanding of W while I do my thing. If I don't... and she does decide to come home... I would likely have too much resentment to make it work otherwise. I guess this is being a mature adult.

[HPoirot]

Crazy weekend ends... W rushed home from drink to watch the Walking Dead with me. I can out of the shower and she was right there ready... "are we going to watch the zombies?" I said... "no, I'm exhausted. I'm going to sleep." She asked again... "are you sure you can't spare 1 hour to watch zombies?" I said no not tonight. She says OK and walks away. War begins then.

Tomorrow back to (or finally) talking about me and what I need to do being better me.

Good night. Take care all.

[Vanilla]

I hope you mean the war within yourself?

Good night

Vanilla

[HPoirot]

Hello Vanilla. Thank you for your question. No, unfortunately I meant war between me and W. She will look to punish me for all this pulling back. For not entertaining her, for not returning her phone calls and texts on demand, for not being her errand boy.

I woke up too early again and can't get back to sleep. I'm afraid now that I'm really pushing W away. I think logically that I'm on the right track even through the huge mistakes I've made. Now my W is no longer in my bed. She says she's happy I seem to have a life now. She's free to think I don't need her here. I'm not at all filling her needs again... will not be driving her to work... will not be grocery shopping for her... will not be cooking fabulous family meals for her... will not be hanging out watching Walking Dead with her... will not be listening to her sadness. Honestly, I want to not smoke a Thanksgiving turkey for her. I'll do it for S11. I'll sit at a table with her for S11 but it won't he pleasant and festive. Already this is the worst holiday season ever. Our house is usually full of people this time of year. Now it will just be the 3 of us. I should just tell her to go to her aunt's for turkey dinner. Just be here with my son without her. Do you think I should do that?

The advice was to pull way back. I see other sitches here where the LBS still does little favors when asked, runs little errands when asked. Whenever they do they regret it. I have to remember that. This is the right thing to do. I'm not helping her do what she's doing. Pull way back.

Last night I could have done better. I could have said "No I won't do that" when she asked if I would watch our favorite TV show with her... the one we never miss... the one she rushed home from her GAL to watch with me. No more using the I'm tired excuse. No more excuses. "No, I won't do that" firmly with a friendly smile. That's all.

Is this pulling her closer or pushing her away?

She got the message last night even though I delivered it weakly. She came back in the bedroom and asked "Are you alright?" (Why is she asking me that? She's expecting me to be alright with her having an A?) I was upbeat and busy on my computer. I said I'm very good, just tired. Then she started to huff around a little with her nose in the air. She left the bedroom proclaiming, "I'm going to read" without looking at me. I said "Yep" and turned off the lights and went to sleep

We're at a cold war now.

Is this pulling her closer or pushing her away?

Today I'm going to get boxes and start our moving process myself without he asking. I'm going to hustle today... get work done... talk with my business partner and make a business plan for this week and do it. This week I get out of my fog and start reaching for my future. I'll also see about volunteering to feed the homeless Thanksgiving morning. I'll take my son if I go.

I think I hear her moving around downstairs. She doesn't really sleep either. I'm not going down there to talk. Not again. Maybe never again.

I'm not feeling hopeful about my M right now. My PMA is low right now. I know I have the gift of time. I can build my PMA back soon. I will before I see W this morning. I will keep working on my PMA throughout the day. That's all I can do today.

Just don't make it worse.

[HPoirot]

I guess she thought I was joking?...

Woke up and did my ice cold shower routine. Today was the coldest day yet. Took my breath away. Jumped up and down a few times. Dresses like a success. Started my day.

W was in the bedroom. I was upbeat. Warmly said good morning because I'm not rude. She says "Hi. how are you." I say "Very Good!" and walk away to the kitchen.

I'm getting S11's breakfast and school lunch ready. W comes in and asks what I want to tackle today. I say I'm going to get boxes and start packing. She looks surprised. Says "don't you want to wait until this weekend and do it together?" I say "no, I'll start packing my stuff."

She says... "are you ok. you seem a little frantic today. I'm worried about you."

"no fine. just getting everything done."

I was moving around a little too quickly. I made a mental note and slowed down.

A little later it comes. She says... "Do you want me to call my IC about counseling today?"

"marriage counseling?"

"Yes."

"Yes I would like to go to counseling with you. Like I said, I'll be happy to go when the situation changes."

And I walk away saying... "but I'm looking forward to going."

I go upstairs for a second to get composed.

When I come back downstairs... she's still sitting there with her head in her hands.

...

She just left to take S11 to his bus stop. She said she'll be back because she's not ready to go to her office yet. So I'm getting ready.

This is my life now.

Wish me luck.

[HPoirot]

She came back and asked to talk. I said sure. She was calm but sad. The text she sent when she left for work sums it up... "HP. I feel like seperating is best. I don't want to prolong this. Please know that I am sorry. I don't want to lie to you any lounger. So no..we don't need counseling. I also want you to know this isn't about someone else. This is ME...telling you honestly from my heart ...that we have reached a place that I don't believe we can recover from. I know you think differently. But please understand that I don't take this lightly. It's killing me.
But I believe we both need to get ready to move ahead. I am committed to figuring out the best way to so..with compassion. And respect."

She still mentioned the possibility of us working out in counseling. But right now I don't see how we get there. I don't know what to do now except keep being better me. I don't want to.

[Zues126]

Be prepared for a long and difficult ride. I think it will get tougher, not more painful but harder to have faith.

See, right now she is a bit shocked by your actions. So while you are hurting, you can do things that seem to give you the 'upper hand'. She is now the one being hurt by her actions, you get to see her deal with that and be surprised with your changes.

Wha will likely happen next is that she'll adjust to that. She'll start expecting it, and stop reacting at all. She'll just get used to a separate life with minimal interaction and start spending more time with OM to try to feel better and in control or the situation.

That doesn't mean you're doing anything wrong. I think you're doin a lot of things right. But it will be a long journey. And once this happens there will be few signs you're on the 'right' track. The ONLY way you'll make it through is if you detach quite a bit more.

Shoot H. Can you get your M back? Lord only knows. It's possible you do everything right and she process with D. A M takes two people, and you cannot want it enough for both of you. It doesn't seem fair, but that is life. And if it does work out the way you want, it is unlikely going to be her just falling back into your arms and everything being ok again. As long as the journey away from you has been and will be, that will be the journey to rebuild some type of R. Should that happen.

I am telling you what may lie ahead. I was where you are after 6-8 weeks. I was doing what I was supposed to, saw some major signs of positive feelings, etc. the results were disasterous. You're on here enough, you should check it out on my thread. Look at the posts surrounding end of August/beginning of September.

Now things have settled down, emotions are calm, she still has conflicting feelings but not enough to stop the momentum of he runaway train. We are proceeding towards D.

So did my DBing work? It won't stop the D. It won't change my STBX. But it has spared me a lot of pain, made me a better person, helped me feel proud of my conduct through a difficult time. Maybe STBX wants another shot at R someday. Not sure what I'd say at this point. The truth is H, I thought I could forgive her for the A. But honestly I think I was just in the 'bargaining' stage of grief. I'd have forgiven ANYTHING to stop the pain of the D. Now that I can't avoid it and I am feeling it, I'm not sure i would want to live with a woman that would do this. Not sure. But it doesn't matter because if that day came, it might be a year or two down the road.

H, I tell you this because you need to detach more and more. Protect yourself for what's to come. I feel you're still in denial because of her confliction and her reaction to your behavior. Really try to get as far away from emotional ground zero as you can. Focus more on YOU. I get how terrible it is to lose an M. But you have to trust us when we tell you it is lost...what you're fighting for is a chance to build a different M with your W someday in the future. But to 'you' it will feel like failure. Because the man you will become will be different. So will she. The two people you are now will go through all the pain and loss.

Prepare for that and build a new life and lots of positive habits now so you have something prepared for yourself. Thank you.

[sandi2]

If you do not feel you want to participate in things you once did with her, i believe you need to make it abundantly clear to her, instead of making excuses each time. Perhaps you have already said something similar to this, and I missed it. When your W has expectations of watching the TV with you or any other activity you two did in the past.......have you just looked at her and said, "There is nothing I want more than for our M and our lives to be healthy and normal again. However, as long as you are actively involved with another man, I cannot pretend to enjoy a shared activitastor just the two of us, as if all is well. It is painful for me and feels like a mockery to what we once had." This should not be said with anger or coldness. It should be said lovingly, but not pitifully.

Now, this is not to punish her or to be constantly throwing the A in her face. But to me, it is the truth and should be stated. You don't want to say, "end the A and then I will watch TV with you!" i hope you see the difference.

As long as you make some excuse to not join her, what does it accomplish? At least this way you have established your reasons and she can't really argue with the truth. She may try, but she knows. Once you make it clear, then you will not need to restate it again. If she asks about watching the show (or whatever) then you look at her and say, "I have already explained where I stand."

I see a difference in a man taking a strong stand, and a cold war. This cold war between the two of you is more a tit for tat thing. You both are playing the punishing game. I don't believe the M will be saved as long as that is going on.

[HPoirot]

Thank you so much Zues for your post, your warnings, and for your advice. I did read some of your sitch and will look for the posts you suggest. I have a lot to learn and I really want to learn. I want to, like you, feel proud of how I acted during this time.

Yes sandi thank you. I saw that my "I'm tired" last night was an excuse and lame and weak. I will use your words and "I have already explained where I stand." I have used "You already know how I feel." I see I punish instead of just making a stand. It is my attitude that needs to change. I will change it.

...

A little after she left this morning, my W called me. I answered.

"I know you're busy and I won't call you all morning," she says.

"ok"

"I don't want to tell S11 anything about this yet."

I mentioned in our talk earlier this morning that she would have to explain her leaving to S11. I would not help her there.

Then she got a little frantic and started again on how we need MC. So we could figure out what to do. For our boy. Another reason I can't remember.

She tells a hypothetical story... something about putting conditions on MC if she had asked or it a year ago when it would have helped..

I calmly agree with her. Yes we definitely need counseling. You're absolutely right. We have to heal.

Just before, in our talk, she calmly talked about how she has been resisting MC and not wanting to go. But she has been asking me about going almost everyday for days now.

This morning, after again she said she wanted to separate (I calmly said "yes you've said that" in response), and also after I mentioned she would have to break this to our S11, she then asked me "do you think we could live separated in a house?" I said "we've been doing that."

She then got frantic with "It's not about OM. We're not in a relationship. There's no relationship. I'm not carrying on like he's a BF. It's nothing. It's not what you think." She went on like this for a bit.

She said earlier today she "doesn't want to be that girl" who lies and whose husband is suspicious of her. She has been being that.

She was also said, earlier in our sitch, that she stepped out of our M. We have used the word affair in conversations about her actions. She said it's now hard because she cares for OM. That this contact makes her feel good and puts her in touch with a life she could have. That he offered to back off because of the feelings growing. And, then there's the dinners and emails.

I said "I didn't know these things (about OM). Explain more." She almost screams "there's nothing to explain! It's not a relationship!"

For most of the phone call I do not say much. She comes to points in her talk where she stops and waits for me to respond. I don't. She keeps on explaining.

Then she catches herself. Changes the subject to looking for a new place for all of us to live (so plans have not changed and she's not separating yet).

I say sounds good. Let me get back to work. Talk with you later. I hang up.

The text she sent this morning was very much like a text she already sent except for the no we don't need MC part. This after she offered to make the appointment today and I reminded her of my boundary.

Then, I few minutes later she calls, says we need MC and tells me OM is nothing.

It's not even 9am yet on Monday.

This is going to be everyday huh?

Funny... I didn't cry or feel shaky this morning. I probably will later. But right now I'm ok. I'm sure I made mistakes... but I did not fold.

Does what happened with her calling back make sense/mean anything? I'm I still on the right track?

Ok enough about her for now. Time to make my day happen before anything else happens.

I can do this.

Thank you all again for your support.

Oops she's calling again.

I answer. I don't think I should keep answering.

She's calmer. She reached out to a friend just now and got information on schools in the state we're thinking of moving to next year. Where she says she'll get her own place maybe.

She let's me know what she found. She sounds friendly. I say ok thank you for looking that up. Let me know if you find anything else. Talk later. Hang up.

Back to my day.