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Old here:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2504477&page=6


Originally Posted By: Jefe 11/12/14
WOW, wife called to say thank you for something I did for her today and said: "Thank you for all you did today, you definitely made my day a whole lot better."

Very nice and completely unexpected.


Again wow, I just got a random text out of the blue that said: "Thanks for all you do."


Me 47 - W 35
M 9 - T 10
2 Daughters - 7 & 9
Discovery of EA- 8/4/14
S - 8/5/15
D mentioned - 9/11/14
R & Piecing - 3/17/15
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Small positives ... just caught up on your sitch ... Jefe .. how are you detaching? Reading up I get the feel you are still completely emotionally ties to what you fill your head with, what W does, for your health you have to step back and take a breathe man .. Give it to God for a day, just focus on yourself .. start there.


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Yes, unfortunately. I get the negative thought train going and it effects my whole emotional outlook for the day. Then I get some stupid process going in a loop,and it will start to affect the way I interact with the wife on the small occasions that we communicate. Not good. I get worried about what I think I know and I get myself where I am this week. I've had maybe 10 hrs of sleep all week.

Now in my defense, this has been a really crazy week.

I am breathing today. And giving it to God.

Thank you CG.


Me 47 - W 35
M 9 - T 10
2 Daughters - 7 & 9
Discovery of EA- 8/4/14
S - 8/5/15
D mentioned - 9/11/14
R & Piecing - 3/17/15
Regard one another as more important than yourselves.
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Just a thought Jefe, but I have found meditating helpful. I'm slowly reading 'Full Catastrophe Living by Jon Kabat-Zinn, and meditating daily at the moment. Normally in the early morning when all is quiet. He has also done some CDs, and I got one on the App Store. All very soothing, and good for shifting the focus from external - worrying about H/W/sitch - to internal....looking after you..

Last edited by Toots; 11/13/14 06:28 PM.

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I have the same issue with that negative thought train and then I can't get out of the loop. I have found myself, lately, writing things down and then ripping up the piece of paper when I am finished writing. As simple and somewhat juvenile as it sounds, it is very helpful for me. Hang in there...it will get better, eventually!


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That negaitve thinking is brutal .. Early on I can tell you it had me completely in its power, then I found things that I could do .. for me .. that made me feel alive, and good .. in a way deep down I could tell myself .. "Ya know, I will be ok regardless"

Its easy to let the WAS moods/actions effect you ... I still catch myself I can be elated if she gives me a bit .. to totally defeated if she pulls back. Truth is now .. its starting to numb. Had a good day Tuesday but I knew it was a test and she would pull back .. and yup .. no word in 2 days other than about S. I have been even keel all week though so I know I am detaching better.

Thats my point to you Jefe ... you have to become the rock, little emotion as hard as that is .. wave after wave can crash into that rock but it does not move, its stays true, she will know you are the rock if you exhibit this action, she will know deep down she can count on you. Detach, GAL, do your 180's ... these can be done without being cold, find yourself again.


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I agree with all those above. I've had a bit of a difficult week, but I don't let it get to me as much as it use to.

Say to yourself: The pain will pass. I deserve to be loved. I will be ok.

Even the highs I get when she is really being nice to me don't affect me as much as they used to. And that's good because sure enough her mood will change and she'll lash out. Without the emotional high, the emotional lows are not so extreme. Better for the soul.

I agree that meditating is very helpful - just emptying the mind of all thought.

I know it's tough at night, but you must be disciplined enough to stop thought.


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Jefe, I know you're a Christian as well. And you've read a lot on others situations as well. The common theme for a successful DB or life-after-divorce is that you just have to give her up.

I suggest you get down on your knees and give your wife over to God. If you can't do that yet, then get down on your knees and pray for strength to give her over to God. You have got to start somewhere. You're letting your obsession of your wife eat you alive. I know the feeling and it is a battle, but God WILL give you help with this IF you ask and believe.


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Wow, thanks for the out-pouring of support. That was very needed. I love all the suggestions and will start working on it tonight.

I just got back from "Man Church" tonight, I played in the worship band before the service. Very enjoyable. Good message too, Bill McCartney, founder of Promise Keepers spoke tonight. Almost was able to keep my mind busy the whole time.

Tomorrow, my mom is going to watch the girls so I can go to Kirk Cameron's new move "Saving Christmas" with my bible study group, YAY ME! A Real grown-up activity! Some times I just need something besides the Disney Channel and 6 year old conversation, you know?

And Saturday night it's band practice with my secular band, haven't been to one of those in months.

GAL in spades this weekend!

Hope, I'm working on my pre-marriage step 4 list. I have some interesting observations I made today, just curious about your thoughts.


Me 47 - W 35
M 9 - T 10
2 Daughters - 7 & 9
Discovery of EA- 8/4/14
S - 8/5/15
D mentioned - 9/11/14
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Did I miss your observations? I can't find them.


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No, you did not. I was waiting for a response from you first (and I was way too tired last night to type the whole thing)

"I think she is very hurt. I believe you both have deep wounds and I believe the wounds go back to the first time you split (before you were married).
I don’t know what caused the breakup but it must have been epic. Because she ran into the arms of another man and you let her.

Her behavior indicates she wants you to be her hero.
"

I've been doing a lot of soul searching about that first year and I noticed, or revisited some events and they way they played out.

I'll start with the first seriously ugly lashing episode. I had it coming. I had already started to withdraw. I was pulling back into myself. Yes, she was pushing for the divorce, but it was more than that. She was clearly grooming me for more. I didn't see it then, but I see it now.

We had band practice, and as was the norm for our practices back then, we drank heavily. So much so that I fell asleep on the couch at the studio. She called at 3:45 that morning wondering where I was. I came home and stayed in the living room, afraid to face her. She went into a rage filled lashing episode, literally jumping up and down on the bed while she screamed at me. "What is the matter with you, who does this?" kind of vibe. I don't remember where in the timeline this event fits but it must have been close to the end.

Now, keep in mind, we had moved into a house together (with a roommate) and she had turned it into a beautiful home. When she left she moved back into her mother's apartment 10-12 miles away from the house.

The reason this is significant is when she left she took her couch, her table and her dresser and put them in storage 1.5 miles from the house and nowhere close to where she was going to be living, working or playing. And there were PLENTY of storage units over there. The only other things she took was her clothes. She left behind her dog (She trusted NOONE with that dog, she's a registered vet tech) she left behind all the rest of her stuff. I never understood any of it until yesterday. Either she wanted to run as fast as she could or, what I think was the truth, she had no intentions of staying gone permanently. I think she was completely invested in us and I think I totally broke her heart. And I see little glimmers of that pain all through-out our marriage.

Another observation is one my sponsor made that validate what you have been saying. He said your wife really responds to positive interaction. You need to follow that.

Starsky made a comment the other day that my wife was repaying my kindness by pursuing OM2. I disagree. She repaid my stupid and hurtful comment last Friday with a mini lashing episode and the pursuit. She repaid my kindness that I extended on Tue with the phone call and text above.

Oh, and I'm still confused on the "let her" part, Hope. But I think even that is becoming more clear.

Just information, fwiw.

And yes everybody, I have got to get my emotions in check and detach better. I have let this affect me too deeply. I love the rock analogy. I remain solid and firm as the waves crash into me.

Have a great day everyone.


Me 47 - W 35
M 9 - T 10
2 Daughters - 7 & 9
Discovery of EA- 8/4/14
S - 8/5/15
D mentioned - 9/11/14
R & Piecing - 3/17/15
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I slept much better last night guys. Tonight after my GAL activities, I fully intend on coming home, taking a Benadryl, and getting a full nights rest.


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M 9 - T 10
2 Daughters - 7 & 9
Discovery of EA- 8/4/14
S - 8/5/15
D mentioned - 9/11/14
R & Piecing - 3/17/15
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Glad you slept better. Exercise will help with that also and you wake up feeling more refreshed. I noticed the other day it was so much easier to put my socks on in the morning after I had been swimming a few days. :-)


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Jefe,

May I make a suggestion?

I would follow the advise of your sponsor. If your sponsor believes your wife responds best to positive interactions...listen to this. Your sponsor is in the best place to watch and observe behavior.

People on this forum on see one side of the coin and they are watching through a foggy lens with an agenda.

It rare that rare relationships heals when a spouse is as detached as people on this forum advocate. Yes, it is not healthy to pursue and pressure when a spouse is asking for space. But it is equally unhealthy to withdraw.

Relationships are a balance. And you need to find the balance that works for you.

Whether your relationship with your wife will be repaired...I don't know. But I do know relationships heal when people move toward each other not away from each other.

If your wife responds when you are nice to her...for goodness sakes be nice to her.


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Hope, is everything ok?


Me 47 - W 35
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2 Daughters - 7 & 9
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S - 8/5/15
D mentioned - 9/11/14
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Hi Jefe,

I just re-read my post and realized it sounded harsh and discombobulated. I responded when I was rushed. I shouldn't have done that.

I was responding to your statement, "Starsky made a comment the other day that my wife was repaying my kindness by pursuing OM2."

You said you disagreed. And I was agreeing with you.

Sometimes I get frustrated with the lack of empathy expressed toward spouses on this forum. They forget they are only hearing one side of the story.

I agree with everyone that your wife has engaged in terrible behavior. But I honestly believe your wife wants to stay in this marriage.

Each marriage is unique. And how people interact inside the marriage is unique. This is where I break with the pack.

I've said it before and I will say it again: Some people on this forum have used divorce busting techniques as a weapon and not a tool or resource. Divorce busting techniques are very useful when used correctly.

But they have to be used correctly.

For example, if your wife spent the last 7 years begging for communication and you "detach"...you might as well file the divorce papers. Detaching is the worst thing you could do.

But, on the other hand, if you spent the last 7 years smothering your wife and she is begging for "space"...then detaching is probably the best thing you can do.

The point is...you are the only person who knows who you and your wife were in the marriage when it was good and when it went wrong. You are the only person who truly knows what your wife has been REALLY been asking for.

If you can get honest--really honest--you know what your wife's complaints in this marriage are.

This is different than what you want her complaints to be. You have spent a lot of time wanting your wife to have issues you are willing to repair.

But you keep ignoring the following: Your wife has issues that you are not repairing. For example, the financial situation.

If you had a genuine walk-away-spouse she wouldn't be dealing with you as a spouse. She would be dealing with you as just another person in her life. You would have zero significance.

This is where the disconnect is on this forum.

Many people on this forum believe the majority of spouses are walk-away-spouses because they moved out or got fed up with the marriage.

Walk-away spouses are called that for a reason. They leave and don't miss you. They are happy to be gone. You don't matter.

Many spouses leave even though they want to be married. They couldn't be further from the definition of a walk-away-spouse.

People get fed up because they feel unloved. So if you are dealing with a spouse who is "fed up" because they felt unloved.. "detaching" is a terrible idea. It will only frustrate them and make them feel more unloved.

Then there are the spouses who don't feel they are heard. So they move out because they want to be "missed." They want their spouse to "come after" them. If the spouse waits to respond to their text messages or phone calls...they just proved the spouse isn't heard.

Then there is the spouse who is frightened and insecure. They believe their spouse may be unfaithful. So when "get a life" principals are used this looks a lot like "cheating" and a divorce is filed.

People can repeatedly quote a book but a book is still just a book. And books are written for the masses.

People are individuals. Only a fool unflinchingly follows the exact principals in a self-help book as if it is a road map to life. You have to build in the variables because people, like roads, have bumps in them.

A self-help book is a resource and is designed to be used in conjunction with counseling. Not instead of counseling.

I saw you making real progress and then I saw it literally collapse overnight because well intentioned people thought they were being helpful by feeding into your hurt. They placed negative assumptions onto your wife and encouraged you to do the same.

They gave your wife no benefit of the doubt and discussed why you shouldn't either.

I have never strayed from my goal of wanting you and your wife in counseling. I strongly believe long-term counseling with the divorce-busting books will give you and your wife a very good chance of success.

But you are not going to reconcile with your wife unless you realize that the majority of people on this forum have a bias. And when they post...they post with this bias.

Which means when you are feeling hurt, angry or misunderstood...many people on this forum will not listen with an objective ear. And because you are on a web-based forum there is no opportunity to observe body language or hear inflection.

Which is why you need to start building a network of people who want your marriage to succeed. And you need to interact with these people on a regular basis. You need to give these people a copy of the divorce-busting books and make them a partner in the successful rebuilding of of your marriage.

Again, this forum is a great resource, but many of the people on this forum have an agenda. It's not a bad thing but you need to be aware of this when advice is being given.


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Hope, I'm truly amazed by your gift to see so clearly into the dynamics of relationships and your ability to offer suggestions that are like needed medicines for the sick.


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"But you keep ignoring the following: Your wife has issues that you are not repairing. For example, the financial situation."

We actually had a decent conversation about this ^^^ just a day or 2 ago. She's thinking I need to hold off on the new full time gig until after the first of the year or when this new job kills her, which ever comes first. She still talks in future tense and in "us" "our" "we" type dialog. So IDK.

She has pulled away but I am having a hard time going too dark because honestly I know my wife well enough to know when she opens a opportunity for communication, I need to take it or she will slam it back shut.

I have been getting very honest about what she wants and needs from me.

A few years ago we got into a huge fight about Roger. And while she conceded everything negative thing about him and his character she threw back at me, "But he NEVER talked to me that way". It goes back to everything you have already identified, Hope. The hurts that go back to the beginning and the fact I have an unhealthy need to be vindicated when I feel wronged.

She wants romance, she wants respect. She wants me to inquire about her day and be interested. She wants me to greet her when I walk in the door first before I say word one to the kids. She wants me to keep making her laugh like I always used to. She wants to go dancing. She wants me to make her feel like a girlie girl, my girlie girl. She wants to know and wants me to remind her how beautiful she is to me and that she is more important that anyone or anything else short of God. She also wants to never argue about Roger/visitation again and she wants me to never raise my voice to her.

At first it seems like a long list but then, it seems like such an easy list. Yet I have failed miserably because: the need to be vindicated when I feel wronged.
I can get past it, but I need some work, and I think I see the majority of the
answers in my steps and my sponsor.

I have also made a promise to myself and God that I will seek His guidance and will in regards to Roger always. I made peace with the visitation, thanks in part to you, Hope and my desire to put my marriage before my feelings. (Maybe I should make this promise with everything else in my life)

Some of this list I believe I can start working on now without pursuing. Other parts are going to have to wait.

Now, I made a dumb mistake last Friday and I have paid dearly for it all week. Communication is starting to ease back in my favor. If I can just detach enough so what she's doing (or what I think shes doing) doesn't affect my mood and dialogue with her I'll be doing much better. I made a couple of pursuing faux pas the last 2 days but nothing tragic or detrimental. My sponsor corrected it pretty quickly.

Do you think if I could scrape up a couple of sessions with a DB coach it would be worth it, or is my time better spent with your suggestion of building a network of people who want your marriage to succeed and equipping them with the DB/DR information, books and tools?

Hope, I trust you.


Me 47 - W 35
M 9 - T 10
2 Daughters - 7 & 9
Discovery of EA- 8/4/14
S - 8/5/15
D mentioned - 9/11/14
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I think a DB coach would benefit you greatly because their objective is to save your marriage. They are well educated and specifically trained in this specific area of marriage counseling. And I strongly believe you should be working with a professional counselor who is specifically trained to deal with families and marriages in crisis.

However, you asked me a very specific question so I want to give you a specific answer. The first half of your question was:

Do you think if I could scrape up a couple of sessions with a DB coach it would be worth it…

My response is:

No. I do not believe you should scrape up a couple of session with a DB coach.

Your addictive personality places you in a unique category for therapy. This means simple behavior modification techniques won’t work for you. In your case there has to be substantive change in how you think, act, and perceive.

You need to be in therapy for a very long time. I do not believe it is a good idea to have a couple of counseling sessions with the intent of leaving. In fact, I believe it is destructive and I believe they will tell you the same thing. In order for therapy to be effective time and trust must be built.

This is impossible in only a couple of sessions.

It seems the big issue for you is money. This is a huge issue for a lot of people when it comes to therapy.

This is why I urge you to contact your church to discuss pastoral counseling. They will also be able to direct you to other free options through the church. They should have a resource list with information about support groups.

The second half of your question was:

…or is my time better spent with your suggestion of building a network of people who want your marriage to succeed and equipping them with the DB/DR information, books and tools?

It is not an “either” “or” situation. You should be building network of people who want your marriage to succeed whether you utilize a DB counselor or not.

The reason you build this network is to surround yourself with people who genuinely cheer for a successful resolution to your marital crisis. Then, when you have a terse interaction with your wife they remind you that everyone has bad days. They can give you a story about when they faced a similar crisis and how it resolved successfully.

Communities build strong marriages and strong families because we feel obligated to explain our bad behavior. Just like we expect to be rewarded for our good behavior.

So I strongly encourage you to begin building a network. I think this would be a very positive thing to do.[/i][i]


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"Your addictive personality places you in a unique category for therapy. This means simple behavior modification techniques won’t work for you. In your case there has to be substantive change in how you think, act, and perceive."

Okay.

Hope, one of the things I adore about you is that you don't mince words. You are very direct, but never mean. I rarely have to sit and wonder what you are talking about.

I will take the pastor up on the counseling offer for myself, then. It was extended to me for the marriage but I'm sure if I wanted to attend solo the offer would still stand.

I can clearly see that my wife provided a ton of good stuff to this marriage and my lingering resentment and anger have almost destroyed it. Time that I fixed that.

What questions do I need to be asking and what information do I need to be offering so they can match me with the best possible IC, Hope?

I have already started building the support network.

Thank you, Hope.

Any chance of you moving to Dallas so you could take on a messy pro-bono case? grin


Me 47 - W 35
M 9 - T 10
2 Daughters - 7 & 9
Discovery of EA- 8/4/14
S - 8/5/15
D mentioned - 9/11/14
R & Piecing - 3/17/15
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Hope, is this a little unfair??

"People on this forum on see one side of the coin and they are watching through a foggy lens with an agenda."

I agree that we all only see one side of the coin with each other's sitches...but my only aim is to offer and receive support and help along DB/DR principles! I certainly don't see myself as having any 'agenda.'

Toots :-)


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Hi Toots,

I can understand why you might feel I am unfair when I say “people on this forum are watching through a foggy lens with an agenda.”

But it is true.

Of course you have an agenda. What binds any community together is a shared agenda.

Having an agenda is not a bad thing but you should always be cognizant of where a person stands when they are giving advice. For example, are they optimistic about relationships when they are giving the advice? Are they pessimistic about relationships? Do they feel loving toward their spouse? Do they feel betrayed?

The ability to detach is difficult and many people give advice because they have personal feelings about the issue being discussed.

Again, this is not a bad thing. If everyone was detached there would be no empathy. And when you are going through such an extremely traumatic time in your life you need people with high levels of empathy around you.

Danger creeps in when empathy turns into transference and you begin to parallel your experience with my experience without paying attention to my experience. This usually happens when people are seeking advice during an extremely stressful period. Which is why I ask that you remember people on this forum see through a foggy lens.


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Hi Jefe,

Since your goal is restoring your marriage, I would ask for someone who is experienced in marriage counseling. I would be completely honest about your situation and explain you may be the only spouse attending the marriage counseling sessions for quite a while.

In some cases they may place you with an individual counselor who will work with you until your wife is ready to attend sessions. When your wife is ready to attend sessions they may place you and your wife with a separate counselor so your wife does not feel set up.

Or they may decide to leave you and your wife with the same counselor. But this is something they will discuss with you on the first session so you will know the plan.

I’m glad you are building a support network. This will be invaluable during the stressful times.

Please be clear that you need them to give you support to rebuild you marriage.

It needs to be noted if you are not clear about this…they may believe their role is to give you emotional support. To them, emotional support might be to encourage you to divorce. So you need to be clear about what you need from them.

I think you are taking very positive steps. Good luck!


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Jefe, there are so many posts I don't have the time to look now but what were the list of complaints your wife had? And what specific 180's were you working on?


Me: 35 husband:39
Sons 16 and 11 from my first marriage
Twins 5 (boy/girl)
Daughter 3
Affair bomb 2/27/14
He moved in with ow 3/13/14
OW kicked him out 6/15/14
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Twin, I'll answer that in a bit, maybe tomorrow.

Hope, TY. I will go the counseling route.

I do, however believe my wife IS dating. I know in the long therm vision that we have already discussed this is but a bump in the road, but man, I'm scared to death.

We had a very unsettling exchange tonight.


Me 47 - W 35
M 9 - T 10
2 Daughters - 7 & 9
Discovery of EA- 8/4/14
S - 8/5/15
D mentioned - 9/11/14
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What happened?


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You know, nevermind. Been on the phone with my sponsor the last hour and it's all (the dating part) in my head. I have zero evidence of anything, just got a little punchy. Holy cow, I need to just get a grip.

Hope, I read my sponsor your post about the support network, he is 100% on board and so is my grand-sponsor. I hope I could possibly start seeing a counselor over at the main campus this week.

The exchange:
She (the wife) unfriended me on FB a while back. Her profile is set so that you must be a friend to see anything she posts.
She went out to eat tonight with a mutual friend who I am friends with on FB. She tagged our friend in a post about the restaurant they were at. It's one of my wife's favorites. Because of my friendship with the mutual friend it showed up on my FB news feed and I stupidly clicked "like". My W was none too happy that I "liked" that post and texted several times to let me know. I kept my cool, though.

Didn't mean to sound the alarm, it's okay. I just got worked up with fear. I'm good now.


Me 47 - W 35
M 9 - T 10
2 Daughters - 7 & 9
Discovery of EA- 8/4/14
S - 8/5/15
D mentioned - 9/11/14
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Originally Posted By: twinmom
Jefe, there are so many posts I don't have the time to look now but what were the list of complaints your wife had? And what specific 180's were you working on?


This is just one page back at the bottom of page 1 of this thread:

"She wants romance, she wants respect. She wants me to inquire about her day and be interested. She wants me to greet her when I walk in the door first before I say word one to the kids. She wants me to keep making her laugh like I always used to. She wants to go dancing. She wants me to make her feel like a girlie girl, my girlie girl. She wants to know and wants me to remind her how beautiful she is to me and that she is more important that anyone or anything else short of God. She also wants to never argue about Roger/visitation again and she wants me to never raise my voice to her. "


Me 47 - W 35
M 9 - T 10
2 Daughters - 7 & 9
Discovery of EA- 8/4/14
S - 8/5/15
D mentioned - 9/11/14
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Session scheduled at 9:00 AM on Wednesday.




I just feel very alone today.



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2 Daughters - 7 & 9
Discovery of EA- 8/4/14
S - 8/5/15
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Hi Jefe, your DB friends are all here for you. Chin up & have the best day you can..

:-)


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Prayers lifted up for you, Jefe!


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It sounds like she wants a fairy tale. It also sounds like she may have some co dependency/self esteem issues.

Take this from someone who was THERE and by that I mean ***I*** had self esteem/dependency issues. I thought that is EXACTLY what I wanted from a marriage. But as I started getting "healthy" in an emotional way I realized a few things.

1. I didn't really want those things, yes I want to feel loved but being placed on a pedestal and having your husband fall all over you gets old REALLY quick and you just start to see them as pathetic.

2. Even if she didn't tire of it quickly it would be almost impossible to keep up. Life and stress happen and fairy tales are just that, a tale.......

My advice to you is to be loving but you need to be firm and set/MAINTAIN those boundaries. Stop talking/worrying about if she is going to church or not. You go if you want to.


Me: 35 husband:39
Sons 16 and 11 from my first marriage
Twins 5 (boy/girl)
Daughter 3
Affair bomb 2/27/14
He moved in with ow 3/13/14
OW kicked him out 6/15/14
4/2016 he seeks help for sexual addiction



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Jefe...I have been remiss in keeping up with you. HONESTY ALERT: Your situation is hard to read from the outside. You are obviously in a lot of pain, confused, and occasionally manic (probably due to lack of sleep.

I pray for you often. Speed reading through your sitch the last half-hour...I see hope in there. And not just from Hope 414 (who I wish I had in my corner at some point.)

Choose a single course of action and pursue it. Don't be distracted by extraneous what not. Create a mantra and stick with it. If your wife needs you to be a rock, be a rock. Hope414 is all over this one. DO WHAT WORKS!

If you want to pursue steady employment because YOU think it's the right thing to do - do it. Her words don't mean squat. I think she was ducking her own guilt when you suggested that you might make this move and she told you to hold off. Remember, actions speak more than any words. You want a marriage, now, and forever. Find a way.

Slow down. Work on some breathing exercises, at least. You don't sound like a meditation guy. So pray. And breathe. Get your blood pressure measured. I bet you'll be shocked into some positive change when you see the numbers!


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Jefe,

It's good to hear you have the session on Wednesday. I think you will find a huge burden lifted as you start talking to someone.

I'm sorry you feel so alone today. This is the reason why you build networks so you have a support group to call when you feel lost.

I strongly encourage you to call someone and discuss your feelings.

In the meantime remember you have people who genuinely care about you on this forum. Let them comfort you during this time.


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Thank you Toots, Starsky, Shake, and TM.

I am very confused. But I went to a noon meeting, visited with my grand-sponsor and my sponsor has called twice today. So I'm okay. I just need to get back to center. I'm already on BP meds and I know I'm going to make myself sick.

Hope, you are a gifted human being. Your husband is a lucky man.

I am looking forward to Wednesday myself. They are going to sponsor the first 3 sessions then it's a sliding scale after that. Shouldn't be a huge problem.

As for the Wife, she is all over the place. I get a different woman every day. My sponsor has noticed it too and has recommended going dim for awhile. She's already pulled back quite a bit, anyway. Shake, I don't know what she needs from me at the moment so I just need to regroup for a minute.

And as I type this, the texts start.

Crap, I need help. I don't what to say or how to dig out of this, spew jacket not handy....


Me 47 - W 35
M 9 - T 10
2 Daughters - 7 & 9
Discovery of EA- 8/4/14
S - 8/5/15
D mentioned - 9/11/14
R & Piecing - 3/17/15
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Lashing, lashing, lashing


Me 47 - W 35
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Discovery of EA- 8/4/14
S - 8/5/15
D mentioned - 9/11/14
R & Piecing - 3/17/15
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Hi Jefe,

I don't know what your wife is saying but as you respond remember that anger is a secondary emotion.

Your wife lashes when she is angry. So there is a good chance what she is saying is not why she is communicating.

Check for randomness.

For example, if the text says, "Why didn't the girls have on a coat today?" And the girls had on weather appropriate sweaters you would know two things:

(1) The time to discuss the girls school clothing has passed so the text is not about clothes.
(2) There was nothing wrong with their clothes.

So before replying...step back and analyze. If the text really isn't about you don't make it about it about you.

Remember...it's Monday. Pool night.


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Jefe ... I follow your sitch ... and what Hope just pointed out registers with me. Just an observation I made with my W, she would pick a fight the day prior to going out with OM, its like she needed this to justify her going out. Not sure if your W does the same .... but I can not imagine my W is the only one who does this .. especially when they are all over the place .. confused with the 180's and GAL we have done .. I mean how dare we do these things when they are doing their thing .. lol

Just maybe think about WHY she is spewing, if it has teeth or not .. I have adopted some new goals .. and no arguing is the latest .. I just realized it has done nothing but create more distance .. and its not what I want so I just listen, tell her I hear her, and leave it at that .. no return fire. Hard for them to keep punching you when you just take em, they tire eventually.

Hang in there ... keep that GAL alive man.


M: 48
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M16 T26-S8
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Praying for you now, jefe. Be a man. When you do respond, do so firmly and with love. Set a healthy boundary. You are a child of God.

Hope is right - we are here for you.


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I know it's pool night, I dont know that situation. I don't think she got off of work in time to go, or if she did she came home awfully early. Whatever the case she was looking to vent about something.

I'll transcribe the texts here. I know I blew it on a few responses. I should have just not responded at all. I am also trying to keep last nights spew in mind as well.

Let me back track first, she sent a text around 10 this morning that I think she was expecting a different response that what she got:

W: I want to take the girls by Roger's family around 3 on Thanksgiving Day.
M: As long as it doesn't interfere with our families, whatever.
no response after that.

Now on to this evening.

I ordered a few books on Amazon yesterday and I bought them used so instead of one charge there were 4 separate charges since they were being fulfilled by different vendors. Now the texts:

W: Damn you're Amazon crazy.
I guess she was checking the bank account. I didn't respond for awhile, I was a little busy. Besides, it was a declarative statement.

W: Hello?
W: So how are the girls?
W: So if the girls were to live with you and we got our divorce are you going to want child support from me?
W: I know you're not wanting them to live with me, is this correct?

M: I don't want a divorce. Period. But if this is the route you choose, yes I will be expecting full custody and child support.
W: Oh OK well I guess I'll have to fight you for the girls huh
W: Fine

M: I'm not going to keep them from you.
M: But they need a stable home, J*******.
M: Your lifestyle right now is not where they need to be. I don't understand whats going on with you. I don't know who you are anymore. (I probably should have not said this part.)
W: How are the girls?
M: Asleep. What are you wanting to know?
W: My lifestyle is just fine what are you talking about
W: If (D7's) legs are getting better and if she's still coughing a lot
W: (D5) if she's doing well.
W: I dont want to be with you. And you keep thinking that's going to change that's the problem.

M: Her legs are fine. She's coughing less. (D5) is as fine as she's going to be.
W: OK what does that mean?
W: She's not fine?
W: So you're just going to take everything from me, the house and the kids and my money. Wow, thanks.
W: You're such a great person

M: I'm happy for you that your life is going great. You chose this path. I'm not doing anything to you, you are leaving us.
Youre choosing to take everything from me since I don't want to be with you. You're an A$$ for that. What's new.
M: J*******, I've made a tone of mistakes. I've fought with you when I should have stood by you. I'm not trying to hurt you. I have never wanted to hurt you, but you are leaving us. This is what you are choosing.
W: I expected no less from you. I figured that's how this would go, a fight til the death. I literally hate you.
M: I'm not fighting with you. You asked a question.
W: I'm talking about the divorce you're going to do everything in your power to make it miserable and not easy. Hope you sleep well at night knowing what a piece of sh*t you are taking everything from me just because I don't want to be with you.
W: F**k you!
W: F**k you
W: I figured you wouldn't have anything to say to that
W: A$$ hole

(I probably shouldnt have offered this information up)
M: I haven't slept in months.

I have stayed out of your way. You do what you want when you want and I pay for most of it. I'm sorry you hate me. I wish you no harm.
W: I'm talking about the divorce you're going to do everything in your power to make it miserable and not easy. Hope you sleep well at night knowing what a piece of sh*t you are taking everything from me just because I don't want to be with you.

I quit responding. I texted my sponsor in the middle of this and he shut me down. We both agree that this was an inappropriate time, manner, and method for this type of discussion. Again like the lack of decorum used last month when she stated she was going to date.

I'm so mentally exhausted already before all of this. I'm sure I handled this very poorly. I should have never engaged. D5 had a melt down tonight and cried for 30-45 minutes straight before I could get out of her that she was sad because she feels like mommy is never coming home to live with us again. D7 is picking at herself and turning inward.

Man I thought we were making progress.

Let the 2x4's fly.


Me 47 - W 35
M 9 - T 10
2 Daughters - 7 & 9
Discovery of EA- 8/4/14
S - 8/5/15
D mentioned - 9/11/14
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Originally Posted By: CaliGuy
Jefe ... I follow your sitch ... and what Hope just pointed out registers with me. Just an observation I made with my W, she would pick a fight the day prior to going out with OM, its like she needed this to justify her going out. Not sure if your W does the same .... but I can not imagine my W is the only one who does this .. especially when they are all over the place .. confused with the 180's and GAL we have done .. I mean how dare we do these things when they are doing their thing .. lol

Just maybe think about WHY she is spewing, if it has teeth or not .. I have adopted some new goals .. and no arguing is the latest .. I just realized it has done nothing but create more distance .. and its not what I want so I just listen, tell her I hear her, and leave it at that .. no return fire. Hard for them to keep punching you when you just take em, they tire eventually.

Hang in there ... keep that GAL alive man.


Yes, I have come to notice the spewing comes after "they" have hung out. I still have no clue if anything is going on other than courting on her part.

Originally Posted By: Shakspr
Praying for you now, jefe. Be a man. When you do respond, do so firmly and with love. Set a healthy boundary. You are a child of God.

Hope is right - we are here for you.


Thank you guys. I wasn't prepared for the direction that string of texts was headed.


Me 47 - W 35
M 9 - T 10
2 Daughters - 7 & 9
Discovery of EA- 8/4/14
S - 8/5/15
D mentioned - 9/11/14
R & Piecing - 3/17/15
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Hi Jefe. I hope you have a better day today....remember...breathe....

I think your sponsor was right about shutting down the text convo. It just gets unproductive and damaging. Next time that happens, you may want to close it down much earlier - maybe saying something like - we can discuss this on Thursday (or whenever) when we meet.

You may want to think about going dimmer on this one maybe.


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Jefe, hang in there. That's a lot.

I went through a period almost identical to this one with my XW. I was an @$$ - knew it because she told me so frequently.
I was miserable and making her miserable. This divorce was all about MY failings.

It's all a smoke screen. She is making decisions that she thinks are best. So are you - and anything you do that runs counter to her view of how the future will go will be attacked. She is texting from a place of raw emotion, without empathy, consideration for you, or logic. Ultimately, refraining from rising to her level of hate is something for which you WILL be thankful.

In a way, I am jealous, while admiring you (although your situation does seem a bit different.) I let my wife take the kids because I was getting a good deal - and plenty of time with them. And because farking lawyers have already got enough of my money in this life. But my children no longer "live here." It's a hard pill to swallow at times.


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So I got this just now:

W: Sorry I called you names.

And she's calling.


Me 47 - W 35
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Discovery of EA- 8/4/14
S - 8/5/15
D mentioned - 9/11/14
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"It's all a smoke screen. She is making decisions that she thinks are best. So are you - and anything you do that runs counter to her view of how the future will go will be attacked. She is texting from a place of raw emotion, without empathy, consideration for you, or logic. Ultimately, refraining from rising to her level of hate is something for which you WILL be thankful."

I hope I did not rise to her level in that conversation. I intend on just being steady and stand. I'm sorry if that angers her.

She sent another text that said: "You busy or not want to answer?"

I waited 5 minutes then replied: "Thank you for the apology, a little busy at the moment."


Me 47 - W 35
M 9 - T 10
2 Daughters - 7 & 9
Discovery of EA- 8/4/14
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There is no need for you to be sorry if she is angry. How she responds to aggravation is HER responsibility, not yours.

You are standing.


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And it just keeps getting worse.

She took it upon herself to go to the school today and eat lunch with the girls. They are both home with me running a fever. So she starts spewing about me not telling her that they are sick. Considering what we just went through last night, I was planning on waiting a bit before talking to her today.

I'm doing the freaking best that I can.

More text spew. A little lighter, but lashing none the less.

You know, this is what a divided home looks like. I expect more of this if we stay separated or get the big D.


Me 47 - W 35
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2 Daughters - 7 & 9
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S - 8/5/15
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She probably felt pretty embarrassed, turning up at the school - as the parent who doesn't know what's going on. Add in her general guilt about the situation, and I can understand her spewing.

However, her text behaviour yesterday has implications - one of which was that you held off updating her this morning.


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Why would you EVER withhold information about the children's health? If it's a runny nose or slight cough that is one thing but enough to keep them home from school and she needs to be informed. DB techniques should NEVER be used as "punishment" or a weapon. Be very careful. I would be angry if my ex didn't send the boys to school and didn't tell me.
And your comment about "this is what a divided home looks like" is WAY out of line. Just remember divorced parents CAN AND DO communicate about the kids in a respectful and timely manner.
You may not get to decide if your children live with divorced parents but you DO get to decide if you contribute to a "divided" home by not sharing information.



Originally Posted By: Jefe
And it just keeps getting worse.


She took it upon herself to go to the school today and eat lunch with the girls. They are both home with me running a fever. So she starts spewing about me not telling her that they are sick. Considering what we just went through last night, I was planning on waiting a bit before talking to her today.

I'm doing the freaking best that I can.

More text spew. A little lighter, but lashing none the less.

You know, this is what a divided home looks like. I expect more of this if we stay separated or get the big D.

Last edited by twinmom; 11/18/14 05:25 PM.

Me: 35 husband:39
Sons 16 and 11 from my first marriage
Twins 5 (boy/girl)
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Affair bomb 2/27/14
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4/2016 he seeks help for sexual addiction



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Twin, the comment about a divided home was me venting here. Not something I said. My point was is that this was a miscommunication all the way around and this is what happens when you now have two homes we are trying to operate from. I apologized for my part in it promptly:

"I am not withholding information. I just haven't talked to you yet. This is just a breakdown in communication. I apologize for your extreme inconvenience and my slow notification. It was never my intent to withhold."

Now given what the conversation was last night I was a little hesitant to contact her right away. A mistake on my part, probably.


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M 9 - T 10
2 Daughters - 7 & 9
Discovery of EA- 8/4/14
S - 8/5/15
D mentioned - 9/11/14
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Gotta side with Jefe, here, twin. Most papers allow 24-72 hours for notification, depending on severity. Can't remember if Jefe and W have a formal sep, but unannounced visits - home or school - are typically not cool.

Unfortunately, the reality of the situation is this exactly what a divided home looks like. I'm my XW's 3rd husband. I have seen far worse than this with her previous two.

Pray you don't see any of it yourself. Forbearance and forgiveness go a long way toward healing and a possibility of reconnection.

Last edited by Shakspr; 11/18/14 06:28 PM.

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Jefe

Ok I get it .. last nights texts hurt, however .... you have to put aside the pain and hurt when it comes to the kids, keeping her in the dark ... regardless your intentions or reasons does look like its a form of punishment. "this is what a divided home looks like." ok .. its very well be you venting but look at this comment, you are hurt and upset and this does come off as it being her fault here, something to think about, how inviting is this? How would this be paving a smooth way back? Its creating guilt and using it as a weapon ... I know this because it was a big part of my arsenal early on. Does not matter if you actually say it or not .. its in that head and will be a go to during a backslide. Just watch that one ok?


M: 48
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Sorry things are tough, Jefe.

I have had the same thoughts about my H. Like "why does he not realize that a D will only make life harder? That it won't fix anything?"

I finally had to give up on those questions, or any questions that would require them to respond rationally instead of emotionally.


They're in such a different place than we are emotionally. They don't see things like we do, and there is no use trying to get them to share our vision.

The more people that tell them they're nuts, means they have more opportunity to steadfastly defend their decisions.

Best to go with the flow and accept she is going to think however she will.
(And yes, ask almost anybody here and we'd agree it's mostly crazy/selfish, but that's life.)

Meanwhile, you're right. W does not get to treat you like a Residence Inn. Pop in to do laundry, eat, get some "Family Time", and then go off to do whatever.

It doesn't work that way.

What can you do to show her through your actions that this is unacceptable?
The only thing you can do is behave in a way that communicates your stance.

Thoughts?

---(G)GGG


Me 54 Him 63
M 23 T 29
0 Kids
Funny Farm of Rescues
12/12 OW--
5/13 ILYBINILWY: A denied
9/13 Proof OW: ENDED
2/14 Got D papers on my BD
I kicked him out for my sanity
9/14 He wants to "talk"?



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Okay, you are correct Cali.

Shake, we have nothing formal. I seriously doubt she really wants anything formal right now.

She called about coming over later to visit and do her laundry. I said that I had thought about this morning and that it was very insensitive of me to not inform her. I said she must have felt very embarrassed, to which she agreed. I told her that in the future I would text her the minute I had information like that no matter the time of day.

I am just so worn down. The last 2 days have been such a beating.
I feel like I have lost so much ground.


Me 47 - W 35
M 9 - T 10
2 Daughters - 7 & 9
Discovery of EA- 8/4/14
S - 8/5/15
D mentioned - 9/11/14
R & Piecing - 3/17/15
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Originally Posted By: Partial deleted post by Jefe
I don't think she realizes the reality of it all. I don't even know what she expect to gain from a D anyway. None of the problems are going to go away just because of a divorce.

Ironically, she is on her way this afternoon to do her laundry and visit. I'm not sure that she gets the concept that if we D, all of that goes away. I would never withhold visitation, ever. But this idea that yo can just pop in and grab a bite to eat and do your laundry whenever you'd like will certainly stop.

Originally Posted By: GoatGal
Sorry things are tough, Jefe.

I have had the same thoughts about my H. Like "why does he not realize that a D will only make life harder? That it won't fix anything?"

I finally had to give up on those questions, or any questions that would require them to respond rationally instead of emotionally.


They're in such a different place than we are emotionally. They don't see things like we do, and there is no use trying to get them to share our vision.

The more people that tell them they're nuts, means they have more opportunity to steadfastly defend their decisions.

Best to go with the flow and accept she is going to think however she will.
(And yes, ask almost anybody here and we'd agree it's mostly crazy/selfish, but that's life.)

Meanwhile, you're right. W does not get to treat you like a Residence Inn. Pop in to do laundry, eat, get some "Family Time", and then go off to do whatever.

It doesn't work that way.

What can you do to show her through your actions that this is unacceptable?
The only thing you can do is behave in a way that communicates your stance.

Thoughts?

---(G)GGG


I wish I knew at this point.

I understand they won't share our vision. They are completely incapable of even seeing that damage that they have done. My wife did some real serious damage when she left but I feel like she just keeps piling it on. I know her perspective is very different. I know that I MUST stop asking why. Just crazy that in a blink of an eye your entire world can change.

Add to that, the very thought of her hanging out with these new pals of hers makes me literally want to vomit. She has an entire new friend base.


Me 47 - W 35
M 9 - T 10
2 Daughters - 7 & 9
Discovery of EA- 8/4/14
S - 8/5/15
D mentioned - 9/11/14
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Well, this has been a very interesting day for sure. She calls from the cellular store because she's trying to get my grandmother a new phone. We spoke 3 different times. I swear at the end of the last call she said I love you, but there's no way. I asked her to pick up some things at the store on her way as I kind of figured it would make her feel good to shop for the kids a little since they are sick. Of course, she did not stay but 15 minutes, dropped her laundry off and left for pool night number 2. A least it's not Johnny tonight.

I have ZERO evidence, I mean none, but I just feel in my gut she has been staying the night over there and they are sexually active. It would explain some of the odder behavior and withdrawing lately. What can I do? Nothing. It's just all conjecture. This part [censored].

Why do I want and love this woman so damn much?


Me 47 - W 35
M 9 - T 10
2 Daughters - 7 & 9
Discovery of EA- 8/4/14
S - 8/5/15
D mentioned - 9/11/14
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Jefe,

If you don't know, then you don't know. Don't trust your gut to tell you anything because under the circumstances, you're always going to think the worst.

It could just as easily be something benign. Isn't it better to give your W the benefit of the doubt as to what she's really up to?

You have nothing to lose; if you think it's negative, you are going to project this to her no matter how hard you try not to and it won't help you meet your goal of being the best "you" you can be.

If you can imagine something positive--equally as plausible--not only do you have a 50% chance of being correct, but it will help you have a PMA around your wife.

The whole point here is for her to FEEL GOOD AROUND YOU. If you are harboring some resentment over something that may or may not even be true, it is not going to give her those nice vibes you're after.

So quit with the "Stinkin' Thinkin" and focus on Jefe, OK?


--(G)GGG


Me 54 Him 63
M 23 T 29
0 Kids
Funny Farm of Rescues
12/12 OW--
5/13 ILYBINILWY: A denied
9/13 Proof OW: ENDED
2/14 Got D papers on my BD
I kicked him out for my sanity
9/14 He wants to "talk"?



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Yes ma'am.


Me 47 - W 35
M 9 - T 10
2 Daughters - 7 & 9
Discovery of EA- 8/4/14
S - 8/5/15
D mentioned - 9/11/14
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If you really wanted to convince me you mean business, you could say:
"Yes, Goddess of the Goats"!!!

wink




Me 54 Him 63
M 23 T 29
0 Kids
Funny Farm of Rescues
12/12 OW--
5/13 ILYBINILWY: A denied
9/13 Proof OW: ENDED
2/14 Got D papers on my BD
I kicked him out for my sanity
9/14 He wants to "talk"?



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That's too funny. laugh


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Discovery of EA- 8/4/14
S - 8/5/15
D mentioned - 9/11/14
R & Piecing - 3/17/15
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Hi Jefe,

I reviewed the texts messages and they are interesting. Your wife went from 0 to 100 pretty quick. What is also interesting is her behavior the next day—she texted an apology and then called. This indicates a recognition that she may have stepped over the line.

This may surprise you but her behavior is unusual.

Most people on this web site will tell you they do not receive this level of an apology after an abusive exchange. At most they may receive a text. But your wife’s actions (a text followed by a phone call) indicate she may be genuinely concerned her behavior could have an impact on your relationship.

Do not jump to the conclusion she wants to reconcile. But recognize her behavior doesn’t indicate she is pushing away.

The escalating nature of her texts indicate she may have been having a tantrum.

Remember that I told you to check for randomness and before you replied to step back and analyze. I said “If the text isn't about you don't make it about it about you.”

Did you notice any randomness?

How did the conversation begin with Amazon and 3 messages later...with no input from you...suddenly become about where the girls are going to live and who is paying child support when you are divorced?

Jefe…no one has filed for a divorce.

Why did you take the bait? She lured you into a false discussion with a false reality.

Again—no one has filed for divorce. There is no custody. There is no child support. Therefore the appropriate response should have been:

Jefe: Hey…Are you okay?

You should have shut the discussion down and changed the subject. If she kept bringing up divorce and child custody then you should have kept redirecting it back to her until she told you why she was discussing this topic.

You should not have been having this discussion until you knew why you were having this discussion. And the only person who could tell you why you were having the discussion was your wife.

…and she just wanted to vent.

I’m glad your sponsor told you to shut it down.


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What? I was serious!

Serious as a coronary at the divorce lawyer's office... smile


Me 54 Him 63
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0 Kids
Funny Farm of Rescues
12/12 OW--
5/13 ILYBINILWY: A denied
9/13 Proof OW: ENDED
2/14 Got D papers on my BD
I kicked him out for my sanity
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I don't know why I took the bait. I certainly did, though didn't I? The first four text messages after the Amazon one were practically on top of each other in rapid fire. It catches me every single time. I need to break this pattern. The "Is everything okay?" would have been great.

Yes, I texted him (sponsor) the minute the spew started and he always says the same thing, LOL. "Pull the plug, shut it down. If she's negative, don't answer. You are not obligated to listen to garbage."

I gotta tell you, ANY form of apology from my wife is unheard of. I was telling my sponsor right after this went on that I would not expect any form of apology from her for any reason. Then she surprised me with that one. He wanted me to ignore, I said not a good idea with her when she is attempting to offer an olive branch. I was completely blown away.

She has been all over the map today. I could sense she wanted to blow her top this morning but restrained. Later in the day when she called me from the cel store, I got a little stern with her. She was about to make a few monetarily poor decisions. She reacted the opposite of how I expected. She said, "You're right. I'll wait for you to decide and we'll do it together." This totally caught me off guard.

I'm in no mental state to attempt to read this situation, and even if I was I would still see it through my lens. That's why I have you guys. And thank God I do. And Hope, you've been pretty dang accurate about a ton of stuff which blows me away considering you only have one very blurry side of the picture.

She left here on a neutral to positive note, tonight. So I'm going to leave it at that.


Me 47 - W 35
M 9 - T 10
2 Daughters - 7 & 9
Discovery of EA- 8/4/14
S - 8/5/15
D mentioned - 9/11/14
R & Piecing - 3/17/15
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Yes, Goddess of the Goats.


Me 47 - W 35
M 9 - T 10
2 Daughters - 7 & 9
Discovery of EA- 8/4/14
S - 8/5/15
D mentioned - 9/11/14
R & Piecing - 3/17/15
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Thank you, "Chief of the Latinos"

smile


Me 54 Him 63
M 23 T 29
0 Kids
Funny Farm of Rescues
12/12 OW--
5/13 ILYBINILWY: A denied
9/13 Proof OW: ENDED
2/14 Got D papers on my BD
I kicked him out for my sanity
9/14 He wants to "talk"?



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So as I sit here in the waiting room of the counseling center I watch the people coming in and wonder. Is this woman going through what Rppfl is? What kind of pain is hiding behind her smile? How about this guy over here, is it possible this is Shakspr or is he going through a similar struggle, or worse? I see people so differently these days. What are our private struggles that each if us is fighting with.


Me 47 - W 35
M 9 - T 10
2 Daughters - 7 & 9
Discovery of EA- 8/4/14
S - 8/5/15
D mentioned - 9/11/14
R & Piecing - 3/17/15
Regard one another as more important than yourselves.
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Empathy... it sure kicks in when we go through this.

Shows you a whole other side of things, doesn't it?

This is a good thing, especially for a guy.

Sometimes being cut to the bone leaves us more..."open"... in a sense.
That wounding doesn't completely heal and there is an increased sensitivity.

I hope the counseling is helpful for you.


Me 54 Him 63
M 23 T 29
0 Kids
Funny Farm of Rescues
12/12 OW--
5/13 ILYBINILWY: A denied
9/13 Proof OW: ENDED
2/14 Got D papers on my BD
I kicked him out for my sanity
9/14 He wants to "talk"?



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Helpful? IDK. First meeting and all. We'll see. I'm sure it will be after this poor guy catches up with the situation. Every week for now till he screams mercy or I go completely broke.

Thanks GG, I appreciate your support here recently.


Me 47 - W 35
M 9 - T 10
2 Daughters - 7 & 9
Discovery of EA- 8/4/14
S - 8/5/15
D mentioned - 9/11/14
R & Piecing - 3/17/15
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How did it go?

Keep in mind you don't have to stay with a counselor if you don't click. This is a very important relationship and you should find a counselor that makes you feel heard, validated and safe.


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Hi, Hope. Thank you for thinking about me.

He was a tad soft spoken and passive for my tastes. But it's the first day. I'll try another session or 2 and we'll see how it goes.

He said he thinks he can help, but I did not get a sense of standing for the marriage. He talked about the drama triangle a bit, and so on.

I actually "feel" worse now than yesterday. But it's all in my head. I just feel like I'm drowning. Thank God I have Celebrate Recovery and Worship tonight. (I'm playing) It'll be good.


Me 47 - W 35
M 9 - T 10
2 Daughters - 7 & 9
Discovery of EA- 8/4/14
S - 8/5/15
D mentioned - 9/11/14
R & Piecing - 3/17/15
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Find another counselor.

Therapy is not like a marriage. You do not "work things out" with your therapist.

If you and your therapist are not able to communicate in a way that makes YOU feel heard, validated and safe then you must another therapist. This is crucial to your therapy.

Your counselor will understand. This is one of the things your counselor is trained in.


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Help.

My wife just sent me an email about Detente Mediation.


Me 47 - W 35
M 9 - T 10
2 Daughters - 7 & 9
Discovery of EA- 8/4/14
S - 8/5/15
D mentioned - 9/11/14
R & Piecing - 3/17/15
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So? Leave it alone.

What did I tell you about randomness?


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Quote:
My wife just sent me an email about Detente Mediation.

Don't let things you can't control drive you nuts. Breathe.

And mediation is a process where both people are heard in an attempt to resolve something. You don't even know what the topic is, correct?

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Hope, I left it alone. Is it so random if this the direction she's moving?



Correct, Zew.


Me 47 - W 35
M 9 - T 10
2 Daughters - 7 & 9
Discovery of EA- 8/4/14
S - 8/5/15
D mentioned - 9/11/14
R & Piecing - 3/17/15
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I don't know and neither do you.

So what do you do when you don't know the answer?


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Nothing.


Me 47 - W 35
M 9 - T 10
2 Daughters - 7 & 9
Discovery of EA- 8/4/14
S - 8/5/15
D mentioned - 9/11/14
R & Piecing - 3/17/15
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Correct. But if she tries to engage you in a discussion you deflect while trying to get information.

You do not have a discussion until you know why you are having a discussion.


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We did some interesting stuff on the drama triangle at the infidelity group I go to. I'm busy working today, but I'll look out my notes and post some stuff on it.

Jefe, good advice from others about not reacting to the mediation thing from your W. Good for you not to get blown all around by it - that one could have started another big text exchange or worse. Your W is blowing here, there and everywhere. But it can be your choice not to chase around in mayhem with her...

Have a good day! Toots


T 13 M 7
Me 48 H 46
SS 15
BD 7.14 PA
D final 5.16 (H filed)

We receive & we lose, and must try to achieve gratitude & embrace with whole hearts whatever of life that remains after the losses - Dubus
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I guess it is 7:00 am across the pond, isn't it.

Thank you, Toots.


Me 47 - W 35
M 9 - T 10
2 Daughters - 7 & 9
Discovery of EA- 8/4/14
S - 8/5/15
D mentioned - 9/11/14
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The intro to her email stated she wanted to schedule a free consult with this mediation group in Dec and would like me to attend. I have not replied and don't plan to at the moment. She asked me this morning when she called the girls if I got her email. I answered that I didn't want to discuss it right now, I'm driving our kids to school.

I think I got 2 hours sleep last night, maybe.

This is not the life I wanted for my girls.

Do not give up no matter how dark it gets or hopeless it seems, right?


Me 47 - W 35
M 9 - T 10
2 Daughters - 7 & 9
Discovery of EA- 8/4/14
S - 8/5/15
D mentioned - 9/11/14
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Originally Posted By: twinmom
Jefe, your using DB as a weapon! Something about your attitude and posts strike a nerve with me.
I can't put my finger on it but do you think that maybe your wife feels it too and maybe that's hurting your situation?

I am not trying to be negative or mean but I am not going to sugar coat it because that's not my style...
(To me) you come across as self righteous, arrogant and condescending.
You seem to want to punish your wife with guilt for leaving a marriage that wasn't happy.

Yes, the affair is WRONG but as Starsky once said, he was able to forgive because he made mistakes too and it wasn't for him to judge whose mistakes were worse.

I am rambling now but I just wanted to give you my point of view..... fwiw


Me 47 - W 35
M 9 - T 10
2 Daughters - 7 & 9
Discovery of EA- 8/4/14
S - 8/5/15
D mentioned - 9/11/14
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It was 7am at that point - now 5.30pm and just back from work! Found my notes now. So, for the drama triangle, we first discussed the 3 points of the triangle when they appear negatively:

Persecutor - attacking, critical, angry
Victim - doesn't feel 'safe' enough to ask for what they need - manipulates
Rescuer - steps in and acts on your behalf - rather than letting you do it

When people are in one of these states, conversations/interactions don't tend to happen in healthy, straight and direct ways. Often the persecutor will talk in terms of - you did this, you never do that, you always do this etc. The 'victim' won't be direct and assertive, and may use 'ploys' instead of just asking for what they want. The rescuer is a 'fixer' who doesn't let others grow, take risks and make their own mistakes - but takes things from people and does the things for them.

The more positive roles on the drama triangle would be:

Potent (to replace persecutor) - able to have a straight conversation and ask for what they need or want.
Vulnerable - able to express how they feel in a direct way. I feel sad about this, I felt lonely.
Responder - leaves the problem with the other person - "I can see you feel upset about this. Is there anything you want from me."

The positive roles are more adult states instead of persecutor (critical parent), victim (child) and rescuer (nurturing parent.)

I haven't read it, but the counsellor recommended 'Games we play' by Eric Berne.

And the message was that often 'simple' changes in how you express yourself can move us from - say - victim to vulnerable. But these can make a big difference in how we relate to others.

Hope this is helpful to someone! Toots :-)


T 13 M 7
Me 48 H 46
SS 15
BD 7.14 PA
D final 5.16 (H filed)

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Yes, Toots, I think I will get some use out of it.

Twin, I have been really reflecting on what you said.

"self righteous, arrogant and condescending"
I am an alcoholic. I am all of those things. You also left out selfish, manipulative, jelous, and a host of other charicter defects that I am guilty of. I am aware of it, working on it and How I wish I could make it all go away overnight.

I don't want to punish my wife, I have forgiven her already. I own a huge majority of the blame here. Hope414 has most certainly been calling me out on my self righteous indignation. I am doing the best I know how to do. I welcome 2x4's because I genuinely want to fix myself and save my marriage.

Thank you for taking time to respond.


Me 47 - W 35
M 9 - T 10
2 Daughters - 7 & 9
Discovery of EA- 8/4/14
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Originally Posted By: Jefe
The intro to her email stated she wanted to schedule a free consult with this mediation group in Dec and would like me to attend. I have not replied and don't plan to at the moment. She asked me this morning when she called the girls if I got her email. I answered that I didn't want to discuss it right now, I'm driving our kids to school.

I think I got 2 hours sleep last night, maybe.

This is not the life I wanted for my girls.

Do not give up no matter how dark it gets or hopeless it seems, right?


Mine did the same ... booked the scheduled meeting, I just told her it was not what I wanted and went along with my day. When the scheduled date came up .. I was there on time. We went in and talked about what they had to say. I can not speak for W ... but it just felt like a Divorce Drive Thru. Oh and the fact they have Plan A, B and C depending on how much you have to split up, or how many hours they think it will take to get to an agreement.

After my W stopped me in the parking lot and asked me what I thought, I kindly said I thought I was hungry and knew S was, so I am going to take him out to dinner. Oh .. about the meeting ... not what I want and I do not want this ... it has not been brought up since. Granted the $$ aspect helped .. plus the fact she did some research and realized the amount I give her currently would drop significantly if we were to D or Mediate.

You have good advice ... don't take the bait ... stay the course.


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Ok, CG. That is extremely helpful and valuable information. Thank you.


Me 47 - W 35
M 9 - T 10
2 Daughters - 7 & 9
Discovery of EA- 8/4/14
S - 8/5/15
D mentioned - 9/11/14
R & Piecing - 3/17/15
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Quote:
I have ZERO evidence, I mean none, but I just feel in my gut she has been staying the night over there and they are sexually active. It would explain some of the odder behavior and withdrawing lately. What can I do? Nothing. It's just all conjecture.


Don't go by your gut feeling.

Last spring I was going out to the jazz club one Saturday night and went by the RH to see if my W's car was there - it wasn't. I just had a gut feeling she was with OM and my mind started its imaginative storytelling. So I sent a text asking if she wanted to join me at the jazz club. Lo and behold 5 minutes later she replied yes.
She had been at a women's group meeting with friends and met me at the jazz club 15 minutes later.

Ever since then I don't trust my gut feelings as much. The jealous mind can really play tricks on you. Don't buy into it. If you have no evidence then practice thought stopping. Don't even venture down that rabbit hole - it'll drive you loco.

Give her the benefit of the doubt. Did you ever think that maybe she just enjoys having a bit of freedom to have fun and some camaraderie with friends after having spent years tied down raising young children. Just a thought.

It's a problem of misperceptions on both your parts. Looking at the world through different paradigms. And the only way you'll get a better understanding of her point of view and her paradigm is to ask her how she feels about things and then just listen without judgement. Then retreat to parse what she said and try to build an image of her worldview so you can start to see things more from her perspective. That's just a starting point.

Last edited by PeterV2; 11/21/14 03:48 AM.

M: 59 W: 53
M: 9 yrs
T: 14 yrs
No kids together but D30(hers), S27, S24, D21(all 3 mine)
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To keep from hijacking RPP's thread...

1. I have tried to be honest with my kids as much as is appropriate. For me that means acknowledging my sadness and validating theirs. Assuring them constantly that H loves them too (I know there were times they doubted me, but I think that time has passed.) telling them I don't know what's going to happen but that I know it's all important and that I'm doing the best I can.

2. You can't tell your W how they feel. But you can try to give them the tools to be honest. In my house, two things made the difference to my H. The first was, S8 admitted he wanted to talk to a C, and he brought the resources he got to my H as well as me. That seems to have gotten my H thinking. The other was, D11 crossed some of H's boundaries (for once) that perked him up into thinking like a parent again.

You MUST let go of the idea that the kids will guilt your W into coming back. They won't. Maybe they can penetrate the fog enough that she'll start meeting their needs better. That would be a very good thing. And you have to do whatever you can to help them feel secure and loved in their current environment, without blaming anyone for the state of their environment. That's loving.


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Wow, Peter. That's good stuff right there. I have had more insightful things fall into my lap today than I can count. It's a direct answer to a prayer this morning. God is good.


Me 47 - W 35
M 9 - T 10
2 Daughters - 7 & 9
Discovery of EA- 8/4/14
S - 8/5/15
D mentioned - 9/11/14
R & Piecing - 3/17/15
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"You MUST let go of the idea that the kids will guilt your W into coming back. They won't. Maybe they can penetrate the fog enough that she'll start meeting their needs better. That would be a very good thing. And you have to do whatever you can to help them feel secure and loved in their current environment, without blaming anyone for the state of their environment. That's loving."

I actually thought I let go of that idea long ago, but I guess if I just asked that question, I didn't. I agree with RPP sometimes, though on the craziness of the entire situation.

Thank you Maybell.

Another thing I hear a lot of people talk about on these boards is how they finally get to do what they wanted to do now, or watch what they want now, or decorate a room the way they choose.

I'm starting to wonder if there is something wrong with me. I was content with my marriage. I was an ass, but I was content. I have no burning desire to go changing this all around. Guess I should have done a mush better job of expressing my contentness. Just thinking out loud.


Me 47 - W 35
M 9 - T 10
2 Daughters - 7 & 9
Discovery of EA- 8/4/14
S - 8/5/15
D mentioned - 9/11/14
R & Piecing - 3/17/15
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I moved things around to make it easier to detach. If I made decisions in the house that he might have objected to, then it was a way to detach and move on in my own head. I don't necessarily prefer the changes to my physical space in all cases, but I've maintained them as a reminder not to pretend he's on a business trip or something, and to affirm that I get to make these decisions for myself.

I haven't read the beginning of your sitch, but I doubt your W left because she was thinking YOU weren't happy enough. Expressing your contentedness might have been a form of appreciation, or she might have read it as you being unmotivated to make changes she felt were needed.

Something to consider.


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Not directly, no. But I think a huge part of why she left is she felt like I treated her like I didn't love her. She felt unheard and mistreated.


Me 47 - W 35
M 9 - T 10
2 Daughters - 7 & 9
Discovery of EA- 8/4/14
S - 8/5/15
D mentioned - 9/11/14
R & Piecing - 3/17/15
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Jefe, about your question on the other thread -- you can't do anything for the kids about missing their mom at home, but you can do something to make their time alone with you as fun as possible and build new memories. I'm in the same place with my daughter, as you know. She was crying about not being a family at the holidays, and I told her we'd build new memories around the holiday music that now makes her cry. So we made cookies last night and decorated the house and had a lot of fun. It's hard to do that all the time, because normal live intervenes, but I've found it to be helpful. And you're right, who would want these selfish WAS right now, anyway. More and more I realize that he is not a prize to be won.


M: 43 H: 39
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Originally Posted By: Maybell
To keep from hijacking RPP's thread...

1. I have tried to be honest with my kids as much as is appropriate. For me that means acknowledging my sadness and validating theirs. Assuring them constantly that H loves them too (I know there were times they doubted me, but I think that time has passed.) telling them I don't know what's going to happen but that I know it's all important and that I'm doing the best I can.

2. You can't tell your W how they feel. But you can try to give them the tools to be honest. In my house, two things made the difference to my H. The first was, S8 admitted he wanted to talk to a C, and he brought the resources he got to my H as well as me. That seems to have gotten my H thinking. The other was, D11 crossed some of H's boundaries (for once) that perked him up into thinking like a parent again.

You MUST let go of the idea that the kids will guilt your W into coming back. They won't. Maybe they can penetrate the fog enough that she'll start meeting their needs better. That would be a very good thing. And you have to do whatever you can to help them feel secure and loved in their current environment, without blaming anyone for the state of their environment. That's loving.



Yes on everything Maybell said.

The main thing young kids need to know about separation is that they didn't do anything to cause it (because a lot of times they think they did), they can't do anything to fix it (think Parent Trap), and that you both love them very much. I wouldn't tell them anything specific except that mommy and daddy have grown up problems that you are working on, and that you both love them and will be there for them. They will figure the rest out as they get older.

You are never going to convince your W of how the kids feel. It's something she has to figure out on her own. So don't even try to explain it to her. It's really important, however, to encourage your kids to tell mom how they feel. You could practice with them, role-play, pretend to be mom and let them say to you what they want to say to her. Then plan out a time with them that they can talk to her, maybe even pave the way with W, say, "D7 has something she wants to tell you, could you make a few minutes to sit with her today?" Your kids are little, and need some support in this area.

Here's the part where I don't know your sich well enough. Does you W live at home still? Is the issue she's not spending enough time at home, or that she lives somewhere else?



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The best thing you can do about your kids emotions is let them have them. Don't try to make them feel better. No buying puppies or ponies or cotton candy. Emotions buried don't die, they just come alive again later.

Most of us are reacting to buried emotions now, as we walk this path.

Jefe I read some of your first thread, looking for what your married life was like before BD and didn't find much. I read that you got sober 4.5 years ago. Congrats!

Are you continuing your step work? Did your W go to AlAnon? Have you read or heard that getting sober also causes R problems? Seems crazy but it's true. The dynamic changes and many times the spouse who lived through the alcoholic nightmare and didn't work through their feelings, has a difficult time. It's like they're married to a different person, one they don't know but still looks like the one who caused a lot of pain.

Who was the primary parent before her affair?


Me 57/H 58
M36 S 2.5yrs R 12/13

Let me give up the need to know why things happen as they do.
I will never know and constant wondering is constant suffering.
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Originally Posted By: labug
Emotions buried don't die, they just come alive again later.


Amen, labug! I am the Queen of Stuffing and Snapping. Correction, I used to be the Queen. I abdicated.



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Quote:
Here's the part where I don't know your sich well enough. Does you W live at home still? Is the issue she's not spending enough time at home, or that she lives somewhere else?


Rppfl, my wife walked out the day after I discovered the sexting on Aug 5, and moved in with her mom. She left the kids here but for the entire month of Aug they had no idea she was even gone. She would show up before they woke up and always had some "activity" to go do that would bring her home "after they were in bed" as far as they knew. That ended the first of Sept when she decided to tell them she was living at Grandma's. From the middle of Sept to lust a few weeks ago she has been less involved with them. Lately, she has made an effort to call them every morning and has seen them the last couple of Sundays.

Originally Posted By: Labug
Who was the primary parent before her affair?

Let me answer this one first.

We agreed before D7 was born that she would be a stay home mom. So she was primary for many years. As soon as she finished breast feeding each child I was always the one who got up in the middle of the night to tend to anyone's needs. Still am. My girls are both daddy's girls and for the most part would probably run to me first if given a choice. As they grew older I'd say we both did a pretty good job of sharing the parental duties. My wife will be the first to admit she's not a snuggley type when it comes to the kids, neither is her mother. That's much more of a daddy thing.

My wife excels in keeping their day occupied, structured and fun. But school has started for both full time this year, now, and that era has ended. I am more lax and by the seat of my pants. She may not be lovey dovey but my wife has provided for this family through acts of service more than anyone could imagine. And we miss it terribly.

Originally Posted By: Labug
Jefe I read some of your first thread, looking for what your married life was like before BD and didn't find much. I read that you got sober 4.5 years ago. Congrats!

Are you continuing your step work? Did your W go to AlAnon? Have you read or heard that getting sober also causes R problems? Seems crazy but it's true. The dynamic changes and many times the spouse who lived through the alcoholic nightmare and didn't work through their feelings, has a difficult time. It's like they're married to a different person, one they don't know but still looks like the one who caused a lot of pain.


I got sober 4.5 years ago, I didn't have a program until she left. I just now got myself a fantastic sponsor and we are all in the steps. I'm working step 4 now. My wife found Al-Anon one week before I got sober. She is on sponsor #2 right now and we (my self, my sponsor, and my grand-sponsor) are starting to have some concerns that she may not be working thought the material correctly with my wife. This is the second time in a row my wife has started step work and it has blown a huge hole in the marriage. Oddly, w's sponsor started attending our church and Sunday school class right after separation. During Aug, my wife called her sponsor daily and met with her twice a week. Sept this drastically dropped off. Today, we don't know if they speak at all. Her sponsor in the last several weeks seems to be migrating toward standing with me, which is odd. I think the sponsors are planning to talk this Sunday.
My wife IS still attending Al-Anon meetings as often as her new work schedule will allow.

Alcoholic nightmare is correct. I'm so thankful for my sobriety. I am thankful my wife didn't kill me or walk away then. She has been through a lot with me and she has been a rock for our marriage.

******************************************************************

This morning after she talked to the girls, she seemed to want to linger on the phone a little. She didn't have anything to say, but I just felt like she didn't want me to hang up. Or my wishful thinking could be clouding my head again.


Me 47 - W 35
M 9 - T 10
2 Daughters - 7 & 9
Discovery of EA- 8/4/14
S - 8/5/15
D mentioned - 9/11/14
R & Piecing - 3/17/15
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As you know, you have to work your program and let her work hers. You're very early in recovery. Being sober and being in recovery are 2 very different states.

I commend you for being there for your kids all this time.

It's good that she continues in AlAnon.

It sounds like your W afforded you a lot of grace over the years. Now it's your turn.


Me 57/H 58
M36 S 2.5yrs R 12/13

Let me give up the need to know why things happen as they do.
I will never know and constant wondering is constant suffering.
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Originally Posted By: Jefe


Rppfl, my wife walked out the day after I discovered the sexting on Aug 5, and moved in with her mom. She left the kids here but for the entire month of Aug they had no idea she was even gone. She would show up before they woke up and always had some "activity" to go do that would bring her home "after they were in bed" as far as they knew. That ended the first of Sept when she decided to tell them she was living at Grandma's. From the middle of Sept to lust a few weeks ago she has been less involved with them. Lately, she has made an effort to call them every morning and has seen them the last couple of Sundays.



Ok, got it. Do you have a sharing plan? It doesn't sound like it. Kids like routines, something they can count on. "You'll spend the night with mom every Tuesday night" or "you'll spend every other Saturday with mom". Is that possible? Would your W agree to that?

It seems like the goal is to increase W's time at your house, where the girls are comfortable. Could you help them plan a special dinner or tea party that they then invite mom to? Could you ask her to watch them on the weekend because you have to run an errand? It doesn't have to be all of you all together, in fact, the girls may get more attention from mom if you are not around.

Last edited by rppfl; 11/21/14 03:36 PM.


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Rppfl, My wife is just short of refusing to spend more than a few minutes at the house with the kids. I have offered to leave but nothing doing. I guess it makes her uncomfortable.

The only routine we have at the moment is they are supposed to spen the night Saturday nights with mommy, when she can pull it off work wise. Is is wanting to start adding Tuesdays as a hang out day too. So we'll see how that goes.

Thank you Labug, I owe her more grace than even I probably know.
I have always been there for my kids. I love my family. The kids were a huge factor in me getting and staying sober. I think the wife always hoped I'd do it for her, too. And to some extent I did. Because if I didn't quit, she was done.


Me 47 - W 35
M 9 - T 10
2 Daughters - 7 & 9
Discovery of EA- 8/4/14
S - 8/5/15
D mentioned - 9/11/14
R & Piecing - 3/17/15
Regard one another as more important than yourselves.
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Have you read The Dilemma of the Alcoholic Marriage? It's somewhat dated, and the role of women is from a different era but the basic dynamic of an alcoholic marriage doesn't change.


Me 57/H 58
M36 S 2.5yrs R 12/13

Let me give up the need to know why things happen as they do.
I will never know and constant wondering is constant suffering.
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No I have not. The picture of the family I have read is strictly form the big book. I'll jump on Amazon here in a sec.


Me 47 - W 35
M 9 - T 10
2 Daughters - 7 & 9
Discovery of EA- 8/4/14
S - 8/5/15
D mentioned - 9/11/14
R & Piecing - 3/17/15
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Jefe .. just caught up ... something jumped out at me.

The GAL thing ... and how you do not really want to do these things as you were "content" with the M and family. I get that ... I was the same and did not want to appear I was having a good time and confirming her decision that its better off we are apart. But ... you are just staying in limbo as she GAL's ya know?

The GAL is to get your mind off this, help build yourself up a bit .. do something different and grow, get out of your comfort zone ... reading you are still basically obsessed with your sitch ... dude you need some mental breaks from this just to get into perspective. I have caught myself on this forum reading so many sitches I realized ... woah ... I need to step away, get with God, and find center.

I recently heard a sermon ... and have been trying do this more. Spend 10 minutes outside and just sit in silence. Ask God to speak with you and guide you. I have yet to do this consistently .. but when I have been able to get into that place, I feel 100% better.


M: 48
W: 47
M16 T26-S8
BD Sept13



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