Need help. Jefe's always confused. Pt 6

[Jefe]

No, you did not. I was waiting for a response from you first (and I was way too tired last night to type the whole thing)

"I think she is very hurt. I believe you both have deep wounds and I believe the wounds go back to the first time you split (before you were married).
I don’t know what caused the breakup but it must have been epic. Because she ran into the arms of another man and you let her.

Her behavior indicates she wants you to be her hero."

I've been doing a lot of soul searching about that first year and I noticed, or revisited some events and they way they played out.

I'll start with the first seriously ugly lashing episode. I had it coming. I had already started to withdraw. I was pulling back into myself. Yes, she was pushing for the divorce, but it was more than that. She was clearly grooming me for more. I didn't see it then, but I see it now.

We had band practice, and as was the norm for our practices back then, we drank heavily. So much so that I fell asleep on the couch at the studio. She called at 3:45 that morning wondering where I was. I came home and stayed in the living room, afraid to face her. She went into a rage filled lashing episode, literally jumping up and down on the bed while she screamed at me. "What is the matter with you, who does this?" kind of vibe. I don't remember where in the timeline this event fits but it must have been close to the end.

Now, keep in mind, we had moved into a house together (with a roommate) and she had turned it into a beautiful home. When she left she moved back into her mother's apartment 10-12 miles away from the house.

The reason this is significant is when she left she took her couch, her table and her dresser and put them in storage 1.5 miles from the house and nowhere close to where she was going to be living, working or playing. And there were PLENTY of storage units over there. The only other things she took was her clothes. She left behind her dog (She trusted NOONE with that dog, she's a registered vet tech) she left behind all the rest of her stuff. I never understood any of it until yesterday. Either she wanted to run as fast as she could or, what I think was the truth, she had no intentions of staying gone permanently. I think she was completely invested in us and I think I totally broke her heart. And I see little glimmers of that pain all through-out our marriage.

Another observation is one my sponsor made that validate what you have been saying. He said your wife really responds to positive interaction. You need to follow that.

Starsky made a comment the other day that my wife was repaying my kindness by pursuing OM2. I disagree. She repaid my stupid and hurtful comment last Friday with a mini lashing episode and the pursuit. She repaid my kindness that I extended on Tue with the phone call and text above.

Oh, and I'm still confused on the "let her" part, Hope. But I think even that is becoming more clear.

Just information, fwiw.

And yes everybody, I have got to get my emotions in check and detach better. I have let this affect me too deeply. I love the rock analogy. I remain solid and firm as the waves crash into me.

Have a great day everyone.

[Jefe]

I slept much better last night guys. Tonight after my GAL activities, I fully intend on coming home, taking a Benadryl, and getting a full nights rest.

[FunDad]

Glad you slept better. Exercise will help with that also and you wake up feeling more refreshed. I noticed the other day it was so much easier to put my socks on in the morning after I had been swimming a few days. :-)

[Hope414]

Jefe,

May I make a suggestion?

I would follow the advise of your sponsor. If your sponsor believes your wife responds best to positive interactions...listen to this. Your sponsor is in the best place to watch and observe behavior.

People on this forum on see one side of the coin and they are watching through a foggy lens with an agenda.

It rare that rare relationships heals when a spouse is as detached as people on this forum advocate. Yes, it is not healthy to pursue and pressure when a spouse is asking for space. But it is equally unhealthy to withdraw.

Relationships are a balance. And you need to find the balance that works for you.

Whether your relationship with your wife will be repaired...I don't know. But I do know relationships heal when people move toward each other not away from each other.

If your wife responds when you are nice to her...for goodness sakes be nice to her.

[Jefe]

Hope, is everything ok?

[Hope414]

Hi Jefe,

I just re-read my post and realized it sounded harsh and discombobulated. I responded when I was rushed. I shouldn't have done that.

I was responding to your statement, "Starsky made a comment the other day that my wife was repaying my kindness by pursuing OM2."

You said you disagreed. And I was agreeing with you.

Sometimes I get frustrated with the lack of empathy expressed toward spouses on this forum. They forget they are only hearing one side of the story.

I agree with everyone that your wife has engaged in terrible behavior. But I honestly believe your wife wants to stay in this marriage.

Each marriage is unique. And how people interact inside the marriage is unique. This is where I break with the pack.

I've said it before and I will say it again: Some people on this forum have used divorce busting techniques as a weapon and not a tool or resource. Divorce busting techniques are very useful when used correctly.

But they have to be used correctly.

For example, if your wife spent the last 7 years begging for communication and you "detach"...you might as well file the divorce papers. Detaching is the worst thing you could do.

But, on the other hand, if you spent the last 7 years smothering your wife and she is begging for "space"...then detaching is probably the best thing you can do.

The point is...you are the only person who knows who you and your wife were in the marriage when it was good and when it went wrong. You are the only person who truly knows what your wife has been REALLY been asking for.

If you can get honest--really honest--you know what your wife's complaints in this marriage are.

This is different than what you want her complaints to be. You have spent a lot of time wanting your wife to have issues you are willing to repair.

But you keep ignoring the following: Your wife has issues that you are not repairing. For example, the financial situation.

If you had a genuine walk-away-spouse she wouldn't be dealing with you as a spouse. She would be dealing with you as just another person in her life. You would have zero significance.

This is where the disconnect is on this forum.

Many people on this forum believe the majority of spouses are walk-away-spouses because they moved out or got fed up with the marriage.

Walk-away spouses are called that for a reason. They leave and don't miss you. They are happy to be gone. You don't matter.

Many spouses leave even though they want to be married. They couldn't be further from the definition of a walk-away-spouse.

People get fed up because they feel unloved. So if you are dealing with a spouse who is "fed up" because they felt unloved.. "detaching" is a terrible idea. It will only frustrate them and make them feel more unloved.

Then there are the spouses who don't feel they are heard. So they move out because they want to be "missed." They want their spouse to "come after" them. If the spouse waits to respond to their text messages or phone calls...they just proved the spouse isn't heard.

Then there is the spouse who is frightened and insecure. They believe their spouse may be unfaithful. So when "get a life" principals are used this looks a lot like "cheating" and a divorce is filed.

People can repeatedly quote a book but a book is still just a book. And books are written for the masses.

People are individuals. Only a fool unflinchingly follows the exact principals in a self-help book as if it is a road map to life. You have to build in the variables because people, like roads, have bumps in them.

A self-help book is a resource and is designed to be used in conjunction with counseling. Not instead of counseling.

I saw you making real progress and then I saw it literally collapse overnight because well intentioned people thought they were being helpful by feeding into your hurt. They placed negative assumptions onto your wife and encouraged you to do the same.

They gave your wife no benefit of the doubt and discussed why you shouldn't either.

I have never strayed from my goal of wanting you and your wife in counseling. I strongly believe long-term counseling with the divorce-busting books will give you and your wife a very good chance of success.

But you are not going to reconcile with your wife unless you realize that the majority of people on this forum have a bias. And when they post...they post with this bias.

Which means when you are feeling hurt, angry or misunderstood...many people on this forum will not listen with an objective ear. And because you are on a web-based forum there is no opportunity to observe body language or hear inflection.

Which is why you need to start building a network of people who want your marriage to succeed. And you need to interact with these people on a regular basis. You need to give these people a copy of the divorce-busting books and make them a partner in the successful rebuilding of of your marriage.

Again, this forum is a great resource, but many of the people on this forum have an agenda. It's not a bad thing but you need to be aware of this when advice is being given.

[FunDad]

Hope, I'm truly amazed by your gift to see so clearly into the dynamics of relationships and your ability to offer suggestions that are like needed medicines for the sick.

[Jefe]

"But you keep ignoring the following: Your wife has issues that you are not repairing. For example, the financial situation."

We actually had a decent conversation about this ^^^ just a day or 2 ago. She's thinking I need to hold off on the new full time gig until after the first of the year or when this new job kills her, which ever comes first. She still talks in future tense and in "us" "our" "we" type dialog. So IDK.

She has pulled away but I am having a hard time going too dark because honestly I know my wife well enough to know when she opens a opportunity for communication, I need to take it or she will slam it back shut.

I have been getting very honest about what she wants and needs from me.

A few years ago we got into a huge fight about Roger. And while she conceded everything negative thing about him and his character she threw back at me, "But he NEVER talked to me that way". It goes back to everything you have already identified, Hope. The hurts that go back to the beginning and the fact I have an unhealthy need to be vindicated when I feel wronged.

She wants romance, she wants respect. She wants me to inquire about her day and be interested. She wants me to greet her when I walk in the door first before I say word one to the kids. She wants me to keep making her laugh like I always used to. She wants to go dancing. She wants me to make her feel like a girlie girl, my girlie girl. She wants to know and wants me to remind her how beautiful she is to me and that she is more important that anyone or anything else short of God. She also wants to never argue about Roger/visitation again and she wants me to never raise my voice to her.

At first it seems like a long list but then, it seems like such an easy list. Yet I have failed miserably because: the need to be vindicated when I feel wronged.
I can get past it, but I need some work, and I think I see the majority of the
answers in my steps and my sponsor.

I have also made a promise to myself and God that I will seek His guidance and will in regards to Roger always. I made peace with the visitation, thanks in part to you, Hope and my desire to put my marriage before my feelings. (Maybe I should make this promise with everything else in my life)

Some of this list I believe I can start working on now without pursuing. Other parts are going to have to wait.

Now, I made a dumb mistake last Friday and I have paid dearly for it all week. Communication is starting to ease back in my favor. If I can just detach enough so what she's doing (or what I think shes doing) doesn't affect my mood and dialogue with her I'll be doing much better. I made a couple of pursuing faux pas the last 2 days but nothing tragic or detrimental. My sponsor corrected it pretty quickly.

Do you think if I could scrape up a couple of sessions with a DB coach it would be worth it, or is my time better spent with your suggestion of building a network of people who want your marriage to succeed and equipping them with the DB/DR information, books and tools?

Hope, I trust you.

[Hope414]

I think a DB coach would benefit you greatly because their objective is to save your marriage. They are well educated and specifically trained in this specific area of marriage counseling. And I strongly believe you should be working with a professional counselor who is specifically trained to deal with families and marriages in crisis.

However, you asked me a very specific question so I want to give you a specific answer. The first half of your question was:

Do you think if I could scrape up a couple of sessions with a DB coach it would be worth it…

My response is:

No. I do not believe you should scrape up a couple of session with a DB coach.

Your addictive personality places you in a unique category for therapy. This means simple behavior modification techniques won’t work for you. In your case there has to be substantive change in how you think, act, and perceive.

You need to be in therapy for a very long time. I do not believe it is a good idea to have a couple of counseling sessions with the intent of leaving. In fact, I believe it is destructive and I believe they will tell you the same thing. In order for therapy to be effective time and trust must be built.

This is impossible in only a couple of sessions.

It seems the big issue for you is money. This is a huge issue for a lot of people when it comes to therapy.

This is why I urge you to contact your church to discuss pastoral counseling. They will also be able to direct you to other free options through the church. They should have a resource list with information about support groups.

The second half of your question was:

…or is my time better spent with your suggestion of building a network of people who want your marriage to succeed and equipping them with the DB/DR information, books and tools?

It is not an “either” “or” situation. You should be building network of people who want your marriage to succeed whether you utilize a DB counselor or not.

The reason you build this network is to surround yourself with people who genuinely cheer for a successful resolution to your marital crisis. Then, when you have a terse interaction with your wife they remind you that everyone has bad days. They can give you a story about when they faced a similar crisis and how it resolved successfully.

Communities build strong marriages and strong families because we feel obligated to explain our bad behavior. Just like we expect to be rewarded for our good behavior.

So I strongly encourage you to begin building a network. I think this would be a very positive thing to do.[/i][i]

[Jefe]

"Your addictive personality places you in a unique category for therapy. This means simple behavior modification techniques won’t work for you. In your case there has to be substantive change in how you think, act, and perceive."

Okay.

Hope, one of the things I adore about you is that you don't mince words. You are very direct, but never mean. I rarely have to sit and wonder what you are talking about.

I will take the pastor up on the counseling offer for myself, then. It was extended to me for the marriage but I'm sure if I wanted to attend solo the offer would still stand.

I can clearly see that my wife provided a ton of good stuff to this marriage and my lingering resentment and anger have almost destroyed it. Time that I fixed that.

What questions do I need to be asking and what information do I need to be offering so they can match me with the best possible IC, Hope?

I have already started building the support network.

Thank you, Hope.

Any chance of you moving to Dallas so you could take on a messy pro-bono case?