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#2501775 10/29/14 02:05 AM
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Darn, my first thread lock without warning.

First thread recap: Fresh separation: trying to play by the book

I arrived here about a month after my wife left. Thankfully, I had read other resources and started applying DB-like techniques.
- I was caught by surprise by the separation but aware of her complaints about the R.
- We almost broke up in 2009 when she wanted to leave under similar circumstances.
- I'm seeing a shrink and a lot of friends.
- I don't know if she has an OM, but she denied it when she left.
- Searching for an explanation: Was I too mean? too nice? hypomania? new job? bad friend?
- Weird request to change our D6's godmother to her bad friend.
- Lunch with W scheduled for Thursday (Oct 30).

Originally Posted By: 1foot2
Lots of stuff about finding a new path in life and not being where she wants to be. I'm not keeping her from new paths, new projects, she is. But its easier somehow to imagine that we are to blame.
YES! Today, I realized that she has a problem with reality more than with me. Her email from 2009 is a good representation of how she's upset that passionate love doesn't last, that she can't follow her untarnished dreams. It's probably best that she goes out there to experiment and realize that it's not my fault if the trash needs to be taken out, couples argue sometimes and need to work to get better at it, work becomes boring after a while, etc.


M39 D6 D3 (at S)
S 2014-09
D 2016-09

"You can't start a fire sitting around, crying over a broken heart" - Bruce Springsteen.
Mozza #2501870 10/29/14 01:17 PM
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Why aren't we more angry?

I told my therapist that I was concerned about my wife's health and safety. He replied "Instead of being concerned, why aren't you angry at her?"

I realized he was right and spent most of yesterday being angry at her.

- She left me without giving me a chance.
- She doesn't care about the kids' emotions.
- She's been mean to me or at least inconsiderate.
- She seems to be putting herself at risk with medication and alcohol.
- She's doing it all on her parent's dime: appliances, apartment, furniture, new clothes. (I'm angry at them too)
- She wants to live her untarnished dreams regardless of realism or consequences.

Don't get me wrong, she also has reasons for being angry at me. But dealing with my own anger in a healthy way is something I need to learn through this process and acknowledging that I'm not just sad and longing for her, but also angry at her can be part of the therapeutic effect. I know I had a good day yesterday, with less sadness than usual. I also saw things more clearly and realized that I didn't want her back at all costs.

I recommend a day of acknowledging your anger to all of you!


M39 D6 D3 (at S)
S 2014-09
D 2016-09

"You can't start a fire sitting around, crying over a broken heart" - Bruce Springsteen.
Mozza #2501878 10/29/14 01:37 PM
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One of the books I read - can't immediately remember which - said getting angry was a really important part of the process


Both mid 30s, 2 young kids
BD 7sep14
XW moved on long ago, now living with OM1
D paperwork in progress
jim0987 #2501884 10/29/14 02:09 PM
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Just be sure not to hold onto that anger.

A saying I came across yesterday....'Forgive people in your life, even those who are not sorry for their actions. Holding on to anger only hurts you, not them.'



Tarheel #2501896 10/29/14 02:41 PM
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Anger is a normal stage of grieving which is what we are all going through. It's important to becareful to not let that anger consume you or your image of WAW. I've seen first hand how dwelling on your anger can destroy relationships and you have 2 daughters to think about.


Me 28 W 27
T 10 M 2
No kids (fertility issues - mine)
Bomb 7/20/2014 - EA Confirmed
W moved out 9/15/14
W dating OM 11/22/14
Hoju #2501916 10/29/14 03:23 PM
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I too struggle with the "not being more angry" so I understand where you are coming from but agree with everyone else about not holding on to the anger.

I think what helped me be less angry was realizing my H is human and he's only doing what he feels is working for him, to make him happy. (Liam Naden books have been helpful with that!)Selfish in some ways but you have to be happy within yourself to be a better person to those around you. Also, I think many times, at least for me, we try to "make sense" of things logically, and in reality there is nothing really logical about it. IMO (and also after some reading) WASs are making decisions based on emotion not logic so all of the why's we ask will never really get answered, at least not for a long time!


Me-44 (45)
H- 50 (51)
M-'96

S-18(20)D-15(17)D-12(14)

BD Feb 2014 (he works overseas)
home Oct(sep rooms)
(EAs possible Pa's unconfirmed)
insists wants D through July 2015
no more talk of D since
lost18 #2501943 10/29/14 04:20 PM
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jim0987, Tarheel, Hoju, lost18 - Thanks a lot for sharing. You're right, I should not be overcome with this anger. I still struggle to understand how much anger to have and how to deal with it. I thought I had expressed too much anger with my W (snappy, sulking, fights...) but my therapist now seems to suggest I should have expressed more of it but in a better way. We haven't discussed the right ways to do so yet.

Yesterday was a day of anger and today is a day of detachment. I finally read the article and a few things stand out for me.
  • It means accepting her as she is, not as I want her to be.
  • I will have more self-control in her presence once I detach.
  • It's part of letting her take responsibility for her choices.
  • The best way for me to help her is to be a role model.
  • It is a toxic relationship when the other is not emotionally available to me.
  • I deserve a healthy relationship. (this was also part of the anger phase for me)
It pains me that my wife probably got the same advice to leave me. What she described to me sounds like a bad relationship where she couldn't be herself. It seems to justify the separation. Then again, perhaps this is a big cleanup of our relationship where we will become better individuals in a couple.


M39 D6 D3 (at S)
S 2014-09
D 2016-09

"You can't start a fire sitting around, crying over a broken heart" - Bruce Springsteen.
Mozza #2502023 10/29/14 09:07 PM
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I might have missed it but did you read the DB/DR books?

There are many things that you seem to be just realizing but are detailed in the books.

"YES! Today, I realized that she has a problem with reality more than with me. '

To a degree, but I've noticed in your posts you've been slowly switching from you taking responsibility to it being more of her own issue. I mean she said that you were critical of her. What were some examples? Did you always have anger issues? You must be seeing a C for something.


M-43 W-40
2D - 9 and 5

Emotion, yet peace.
Ignorance, yet knowledge.
Passion, yet serenity.
Chaos, yet harmony.
Death, yet a new life.

RECONCILED AND WISER
MrBond #2502048 10/29/14 10:17 PM
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Thanks a lot MrBond for stopping by. Much appreciated.
Originally Posted By: MrBond
I might have missed it but did you read the DB/DR books? There are many things that you seem to be just realizing but are detailed in the books.
Not yet. I've ordered DR last week and expect it by the end of this week. It would be good to have them available as ebooks, considering the kind of emergency situation in which we seek them. In the meantime, I'm reading The 5 Love Languages and I have No More Mr. Nice Guy waiting in the wings.

Originally Posted By: MrBond
"YES! Today, I realized that she has a problem with reality more than with me. '

To a degree, but I've noticed in your posts you've been slowly switching from you taking responsibility to it being more of her own issue.
I'm moving between the two day to day as I refine my understanding of the causes for the S. For instance, in three days I explored her potential hypomania based on some strange behavior, then I noted an email from April clearly laying out her dissatisfaction with the R, and the following day I found that email from 2009 suggesting she clings to unrealistic expectations. To be clear, I believe that the root causes of the separation are in the R. It simply provided a fertile ground to external triggers such as the new job, flirtatious colleagues, alcohol, mental issues, bad friend, etc.

Originally Posted By: MrBond
I mean she said that you were critical of her. What were some examples?
Here are a few:
  • I would complain that she is so disorganized and sloppy that I've to go check on things after her.
  • She spent a year at home jobless yet never cleaned the house. I never got upset, but tried to convince her several times.
  • I would ask her to get to the point when telling me a story.
  • I'd get into rhetorical nuances to interpret her wording or phrasing.
  • I would often assume that she had ill intentions when she didn't.
  • I wouldn't answer her questions for which the answer was obvious to me.
As a result, she would say that she was walking on eggshells at home, always afraid of saying or doing the wrong thing.

Originally Posted By: MrBond
Did you always have anger issues? You must be seeing a C for something.
I started seeing a therapist a couple of days after the S talks started and before the "official" separation a few days later. The purpose was to work on all issues that I was bringing to the R: criticism, withdrawal, impatience, anger, etc. I never thought I had an "anger" problem before and in fact it was mentioned with my therapist for the first time this week when I brought it up. This being said, I'm still researching anger management and I might very well fall under the definition. To clarify, I've never physically assaulted or even threatened my wife, but I did raise my voice in arguments and snap at her or sulk. I had a girlfriend, with whom I wasn't comfortable, nickname me 'Mr Grumpy' years ago. This is all a surprise to my friends because they never see this side of me, but it's been real in my R.


M39 D6 D3 (at S)
S 2014-09
D 2016-09

"You can't start a fire sitting around, crying over a broken heart" - Bruce Springsteen.
Mozza #2502087 10/30/14 12:25 AM
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"Not yet. I've ordered DR last week and expect it by the end of this week.:

Okay, that explains alot. You have to read the books asap when you get them. There are no shortcuts and it frustrates me when people bug the posters here for quick answers rather than studying on their own.

"I would complain that she is so disorganized and sloppy that I've to go check on things after her..."

From the way you described things, you really did treat her like a child and have a massive ego. No woman wants to be treated like that.

"As a result, she would say that she was walking on eggshells at home, always afraid of saying or doing the wrong thing."

I can see that. Would you want to live with someone like you?

"Yesterday was a day of anger and today is a day of detachment. I finally read the article and a few things stand out for me."

The fact that you had to read that article to understand her POV, shows that you did put your needs first.

"The purpose was to work on all issues that I was bringing to the R: criticism, withdrawal, impatience, anger, etc."

Those are BIG issues and yet you seem to justify alot of your behavior and throw the blame back on your W rather than taking responsibility of your own actions and realizing that these are the consequences to those actions.

"To clarify, I've never physically assaulted or even threatened my wife, but I did raise my voice in arguments and snap at her or sulk."

Words hurt just as badly as physically striking her. Ask any woman on here if they would like to live under those conditions.


M-43 W-40
2D - 9 and 5

Emotion, yet peace.
Ignorance, yet knowledge.
Passion, yet serenity.
Chaos, yet harmony.
Death, yet a new life.

RECONCILED AND WISER
MrBond #2502206 10/30/14 02:44 PM
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Originally Posted By: MrBond
Those are BIG issues and yet you seem to justify alot of your behavior and throw the blame back on your W rather than taking responsibility of your own actions and realizing that these are the consequences to those actions.
Then I gave you the wrong impression. I see the main reasons for my separation within the R. I beat myself up plenty for my behavior (perhaps not enough here) and agree that things needed to change for a healthy relationship, even when people around me disagree that it was that bad or that it was all my fault. I started counseling a couple of days after the separation talks started. These sessions are all about me and the roots of my behavior (he's Freudian...). I've ordered DR, I read The 5LL and I've NMMNG waiting. Because of this sense that I pushed her away, I'm accepting of her behavior towards me and with other people. I wish that our problems could have been fixed within the M, but to an extent, I made it possible (appealing?) for her to leave me when the stars aligned.

I also want to get a full picture of how I came to this point and it means exploring my W's side of things. This is why I discuss mental health, immaturity, patterns, etc. It doesn't mean that I forget about my responsibility when I do so.


M39 D6 D3 (at S)
S 2014-09
D 2016-09

"You can't start a fire sitting around, crying over a broken heart" - Bruce Springsteen.
Mozza #2502252 10/30/14 05:17 PM
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Of course, my W postponed today's lunch. I expected it when she wrote "Yeah, that should work". It's too bad because I'm in good place today. I slept more than usual (close to 7 hours) and I don't miss her as much as certain days. The day of anger and the day of detachment have a lasting impact. It should now be tomorrow and hope that I'll feel as good.

I have no expectations for this lunch. It's just too early (6 weeks) after she left and she's still in the fog. Anyway, I'm not ready myself. I mostly want to get out alive without saying anything stupid. The next step, is to look good and be funny, confident. There are a few boundary-settings discussions that I want to have.

1. No more stroller in the backyard. She drops it my backyard every day because I live close to the daycare. But it stresses me out that she comes by. There's a stroller parking at the daycare and I'll ask her to drop it there. I'll tell her it's more convenient for her and that I'm uncomfortable with the current arrangement anyway.

2. Monday dinner with kids. I want to take the kids for dinner during her week with them. I've received advice that 7 days in a row is a long time for D3 especially. W said yes for the first two weeks, then said no this week: "It's my week and the kids are happy." I think I'll have to convince her of my good intentions.

3. Godmother. I'll refuse to change D6's godmother to her bad friend, Anna. Their relationship is too tumultuous and I'm not ready to undo decisions we've taken together. It's no more unfair that both godparents are on my side now than it was at the time. I expect a blowup on this, but it's my boundary. I'd feel like a wimp to give in to such a silly idea.

On the appearance front, I'll be wearing a completely new outfit and I've unearthed the cologne she gave me years ago and that I had stopped wearing. It smells fantastic.


M39 D6 D3 (at S)
S 2014-09
D 2016-09

"You can't start a fire sitting around, crying over a broken heart" - Bruce Springsteen.
Mozza #2502266 10/30/14 05:32 PM
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"It's just too early (6 weeks) after she left and she's still in the fog."

See, you rely so much on this being your W's fog. She had legitimate reasons to leave you. But you still think it's all because of her "fog".

"There are a few boundary-settings discussions that I want to have."

Like what? Think about it this way. You mistreated her through your anger and put downs. Do you really think she cares about YOUR boundaries? That's all you've been doing is thinking of yourself and how YOU can benefit. She has to see a way that SHE can benefit.

"I think I'll have to convince her of my good intentions."

You don't have to "convince" her of anything. That's more control on your part. Keep showing her that you're a changed person and REALLY change. Right now your attitude is not showing that.

You think that I'm misinterpreting things, etc. but I've been on here long enough to see PLENTY of posters like you. You have a while before your changes become permanent.


M-43 W-40
2D - 9 and 5

Emotion, yet peace.
Ignorance, yet knowledge.
Passion, yet serenity.
Chaos, yet harmony.
Death, yet a new life.

RECONCILED AND WISER
Mozza #2502271 10/30/14 05:37 PM
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I forgot one topic for tomorrow.

4. I will prepare a suitcase with all her stuff remaining in the apartment. There's no reason to store it here, as if it's her parents' home or some sort of storage (cake-eating). Also, this should be the end of asking me to send her random stuff every week. It's heart-wrenching and it prevents me from feeling home in my own apartment.

My general message, and I might verbalize it to her if need be, is that she's no longer alone in charge of the separation. I'm separating too. I don't want it, but I need to take care of myself. Having her stuff at home, her daily visits for the stroller, her set the rules alone without explanation, etc. it just doesn't work. I'm afraid of the confrontation, but I'm detached enough (today) that I wouldn't mind a bit of it if it helps me set boundaries. I'll try to show her that it's not against her, it's for me.


M39 D6 D3 (at S)
S 2014-09
D 2016-09

"You can't start a fire sitting around, crying over a broken heart" - Bruce Springsteen.
MrBond #2502285 10/30/14 06:26 PM
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Originally Posted By: MrBond
You think that I'm misinterpreting things, etc. but I've been on here long enough to see PLENTY of posters like you. You have a while before your changes become permanent.
I much appreciate that a vet take interest in my sitch, but it still seems an unfair assessment of my mindset. I said I'm not ready to take my wife back because I'm not done with the changes. I speak to her with my actions only. I've exhibited none of the bad behavior since we separated. I set boundaries because I need to protect myself -- none of them are mean to her or meant to control her. I fail to see a single way in which I've tried to control her since we separated. I don't ask questions about OM, her whereabouts, her intentions, etc. I don't promise, I don't ask, I don't plead. From day 1 with my C, the question has been "Why did I have this behavior that pushed away the woman I love?" I'm here and I read multiple self-improvement books. I freely share incriminating evidence. I resist when I'm told the separation is not my fault. In person, I'm often told to stop blaming myself so much -- perhaps it isn't reflected in what I share here.

I want to learn and take the right steps, but it simply doesn't seem factually correct that I have a bad attitude, try to control her, refuse to change for real, etc. This separation is not my doing alone and I explore how the mix of our personalities has lead to this sad point. This being said, I appreciate you making me reflect deeper on my share of the responsibilities as I want this whole ordeal to change me for the best.

By the way, I'd be happy to know what others think. Am I in denial? Do I have a bad attitude? Do I deny my responsibility in her departure?

Last edited by Mozza; 10/30/14 06:29 PM.

M39 D6 D3 (at S)
S 2014-09
D 2016-09

"You can't start a fire sitting around, crying over a broken heart" - Bruce Springsteen.
Mozza #2502292 10/30/14 06:41 PM
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Mozza I could not tell you what you are, except. I believe there are so many of us that feel the same way. I think we are all really confused and just want the answer's. If we can learn from our mistakes does it make us a better person. Tough to say. I believe so. If it does and WAS does not come back, are YOU still a better person. I think you continue learning. Try your best. There should be no regrets as long as you try. Maybe 1 day you will look back and ask yourself. Did I do the best I knew how to at the time? And all you will be able to say is YES. Even if things don't work out.


M:35 W 31
D's:6, 4 & 2
T:9 M:7
ILYBNILWY- Mar/14
DP Served Dec.17/14

Mozza #2502303 10/30/14 06:56 PM
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Mozza, you do understand that boundaries are not intended to control or to punish, right? Boundaries are to protect you. The action is to be from "you" if the boundary is not honored.

Quote:
1. No more stroller in the backyard. She drops it my backyard every day because I live close to the daycare. But it stresses me out that she comes by. There's a stroller parking at the daycare and I'll ask her to drop it there. I'll tell her it's more convenient for her and that I'm uncomfortable with the current arrangement anyway.


How is this a "boundary"? It irritates you, just like her messiness irritated you. You want to control her. I don't understand the whole stroller thing. Is she bringing your child back home in the stroller? If so, what's the big deal with her leaving it there? Have you tried to discuss it with her? It sounds a little overbearing to me, but I realize I don't have the whole picture.

Quote:
2. Monday dinner with kids. I want to take the kids for dinner during her week with them. I've received advice that 7 days in a row is a long time for D3 especially. W said yes for the first two weeks, then said no this week: "It's my week and the kids are happy." I think I'll have to convince her of my good intentions.


So, what if she decides she doesn't want to follow your rules? Then what? What do you mean about your good intentions?

Quote:
3. Godmother. I'll refuse to change D6's godmother to her bad friend, Anna. Their relationship is too tumultuous and I'm not ready to undo decisions we've taken together. It's no more unfair that both godparents are on my side now than it was at the time. I expect a blowup on this, but it's my boundary. I'd feel like a wimp to give in to such a silly idea.


Are you saying both godparents are on "your side" and she wants to choose ....one person of her choice? It may not be a silly idea to her, if she is considering a life apart you and your family. It sounds as if this is another area you want to use power over her. You are right about it not being any more unfair now as it was then. Maybe she didn't want it set up that way back then? Whatever......I know it is a very serious business and you want to choose the best people as godparents, but each of you should have a voice about it, yes?


It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
sandi2 #2502313 10/30/14 07:08 PM
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Our posts seem to have crossed, but to clarify, I am not saying you are in denial or have a bad attitude or anything like that. My point was to try and help you distinguish between personal boundaries and punitive control over another person.

When we are suffering from so much pain, it is often difficult to clearly get a true concept of something new we are learning. Our emotions can cloud our abilities. Please don't take this the wrong way, I am not suggesting you are not intelligent. Intelligence is not the problem, the emotions are the problem. The pain gets in the way of making the best decisions.

I'm sure I probably come across the wrong way in a lot of my posts, too. But rest assured, we are here to give support and help one another learn.


It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
sandi2 #2502321 10/30/14 07:29 PM
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Hi mozza. I don't know how you're doing in your changes but what I will say is that I thought I was making changes then someone says something that makes me realise how far I still have to go.

Every journey starts with a first step and you've taken your first few but there are a lot more ahead of you (of all of us)


Both mid 30s, 2 young kids
BD 7sep14
XW moved on long ago, now living with OM1
D paperwork in progress
sandi2 #2502340 10/30/14 08:45 PM
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Originally Posted By: sandi2
Mozza, you do understand that boundaries are not intended to control or to punish, right? Boundaries are to protect you. The action is to be from "you" if the boundary is not honored.
I hope I get them right. Let's see once I explain further.
Originally Posted By: sandi2

Originally Posted By: Mozza
1. No more stroller in the backyard. She drops it my backyard every day because I live close to the daycare. But it stresses me out that she comes by. There's a stroller parking at the daycare and I'll ask her to drop it there. I'll tell her it's more convenient for her and that I'm uncomfortable with the current arrangement anyway.
How is this a "boundary"? It irritates you, just like her messiness irritated you. You want to control her. I don't understand the whole stroller thing. Is she bringing your child back home in the stroller? If so, what's the big deal with her leaving it there? Have you tried to discuss it with her? It sounds a little overbearing to me, but I realize I don't have the whole picture.
Yes, I need to clarify. She moved a few hundred yards from our apartment. During her week with the kids, she drops off D3 at a day care very close to our/my apartment. She stops by my apartment and drops the stroller in our small backyard (like rowhouses), giving her a view of the kitchen and my office and anything going on at my place, twice a day. I also see her if I'm in the kitchen or the office, which is most of the time. Seeing her stresses me out because I'm so emotional about the S. I become stressed an hour before she's supposed to come (and to a lesser degree, all day). At that time of day, I try to avoid being in a place where she'll see me or I see her. I feel uncomfortable at my own place during the week where I'm supposed to be "free".

I initially agreed to this for her own convenience, I was saying yes to everything she wanted and not knowing what impact it would have on me, nor that there was a place at the daycare for strollers. So I'm not irritated and I don't find it sloppy. She leaves D6's scooter at my place for the entire week I have the kids and I'm fine with it.

Originally Posted By: sandi2
Originally Posted By: Mozza
2. Monday dinner with kids. I want to take the kids for dinner during her week with them. I've received advice that 7 days in a row is a long time for D3 especially. W said yes for the first two weeks, then said no this week: "It's my week and the kids are happy." I think I'll have to convince her of my good intentions.
So, what if she decides she doesn't want to follow your rules? Then what? What do you mean about your good intentions?
It seems like a normal negotiations about sharing the kids: she wants 7 days in a row, I want a dinner break in between based on the professional advice I got about D3's well-being (apparently parents with such small children often have a 3-4-4-3 days arrangement). When I asked for Monday dinner, she just said no. Does it mean I have to accept it? That if I want a different arrangement, I'm controlling? (this is an honest question) She can have her own Monday dinner with the kids during my week if she wants to (she never asked and I never suggested because she rejects the smallest things I propose).

Originally Posted By: sandi2
Originally Posted By: Mozza
3. Godmother. I'll refuse to change D6's godmother to her bad friend, Anna. Their relationship is too tumultuous and I'm not ready to undo decisions we've taken together. It's no more unfair that both godparents are on my side now than it was at the time. I expect a blowup on this, but it's my boundary. I'd feel like a wimp to give in to such a silly idea.
Are you saying both godparents are on "your side" and she wants to choose ....one person of her choice? It may not be a silly idea to her, if she is considering a life apart you and your family. It sounds as if this is another area you want to use power over her. You are right about it not being any more unfair now as it was then. Maybe she didn't want it set up that way back then? Whatever......I know it is a very serious business and you want to choose the best people as godparents, but each of you should have a voice about it, yes?
She wants to take away the title of godmother from the woman we chose together some six years ago. It was very much a joint choice, like everything important in our life (career, city, apartment, kids, names, etc.) I agree that we should each have a voice about it and my voice is "no" for this person. First, my W has an on-and-off relationship with her (serious fall-outs, inappropriate behavior, years without talking) and this closeness seems to be a fad, based on what it's been before. Second, the reasons my W gives me for the friend to be a godmother (she doesn't care about anyone, she does her own thing) don't seem very reasonable. The current godmother is doing a PhD and is a mother of three -- a perfectly good role model and one that we chose together after giving it much thought. Third, I believe this friend has played a detrimental role in my separation and I refuse to have her as the godmother of my child. It seems like when we chose the godmother, all these arguments were fair game and that's how we chose the one D6 has.

I hope I've clarified. I greatly appreciate the guidance.


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Originally Posted By: sandi2
Our posts seem to have crossed, but to clarify, I am not saying you are in denial or have a bad attitude or anything like that. My point was to try and help you distinguish between personal boundaries and punitive control over another person.

When we are suffering from so much pain, it is often difficult to clearly get a true concept of something new we are learning. Our emotions can cloud our abilities. Please don't take this the wrong way, I am not suggesting you are not intelligent. Intelligence is not the problem, the emotions are the problem. The pain gets in the way of making the best decisions.

I'm sure I probably come across the wrong way in a lot of my posts, too. But rest assured, we are here to give support and help one another learn.
No worries at all. I didn't take any offense. I found your message very helpful and I hope it will help me clarify what is a boundary and what is control. I know I'm just starting to learn and I do want to integrate these lessons in my personality for good.


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Your responses mirror what your W complained about you:

- I would ask her to get to the point when telling me a story.
- I'd get into rhetorical nuances to interpret her wording or phrasing.
- I would often assume that she had ill intentions when she didn't.
- I wouldn't answer her questions for which the answer was obvious to me.

I'd say that the issues you have aren't just in the way you communicate to your W, but to everyone in general. Unfortunately your W had to live with you so she had shouldered the brunt of your negativity.


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Unexpected: my W just called to talk about the kids acting up. She was distressed and couldn't handle the situation anymore. D6 has been difficult, demanding candies on a regular basis (big no-no for my W) and giving her attitude and mean looks when my W said no. Apparently, D3 is getting on the game too.

I listened to her, I let her vent, I validated. She said she was exhausted at work and that her boss was being difficult, which is a change because these two were very tight last I heard. I asked her if she wanted to be heard or if she wanted advice after all (her initial request) and she got defensive wondering if I was going to criticize her, then opened the door. I told her to show her love to the kids, to hug them when she would have a difficult conversation. I was thinking of filling the love tank (T5LL). My W has always been snappier with the kids than me, in part because she was raised by an authoritarian mother, and it gets her into those difficult situations where everyone is upset. She asked me if it was difficult for me too and I confirmed that yes, it's difficult for me too. She was relieved by that.

I told her, as difficult as it is, we often have to take the first step to calm down the situation because we,re the adults. She said sometimes she's tired of being the adult.

When the phone call started, my W said she wanted to talk about Halloween and I thought for a second she had misgivings about this stupid costume and pub crawl. Never have any expectations... Also, she spoke to someone and I asked what was going on and she said she was at a shop. I asked if the kids were with her (overhearing) and she said no, they're at the apartment. Alone? "No, with a friend. I don't have to tell you any of that." I didn't insist and didn't even realize we had gotten there.

At the end of the call, she said she shouldn't have called, she should at least have texted to see if I was available. I said it was ok. She seemed happy we spoke, but she didn't seem much calmer.

I don't know what to make of it. I guess it's just a regular parenting phone call. It happens to be the first, that's all.


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Originally Posted By: MrBond
I'd say that the issues you have aren't just in the way you communicate to your W, but to everyone in general. Unfortunately your W had to live with you so she had shouldered the brunt of your negativity.
What would have been good answers? Was there any way I could have disagreed with you in a way that didn't exhibit those behaviors?


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Mozza #2502383 10/30/14 11:05 PM
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Quote:
I asked her if she wanted to be heard or if she wanted advice after all (her initial request) and she got defensive wondering if I was going to criticize her, then opened the door.


Maybe next time listen first then say, "What can I do to help?" or "I can offer a suggestion, if you want it.". And be watchful of your tone of voice when you say it.

Just to be clear, do both of you speak English?


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Thanks Sandi2. I like the idea of saying "What can I do to help?" to put the ball in her court, rather than suggest a course of action. I'll try to remember that (forever!).

English is not our native language. We speak our native tongue together and some of our emails are in English.


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Mozza #2502406 10/31/14 12:05 AM
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"I listened to her, I let her vent, I validated."

I know you didn't read the books yet, so how did you "validate" her? What did you say?


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Emotion, yet peace.
Ignorance, yet knowledge.
Passion, yet serenity.
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MrBond #2502408 10/31/14 12:08 AM
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"Was there any way I could have disagreed with you in a way that didn't exhibit those behaviors?"

Yes.


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Originally Posted By: MrBond
"I listened to her, I let her vent, I validated."

I know you didn't read the books yet, so how did you "validate" her? What did you say?
I had read the cheat sheet today. I reflected to her what she said, I confirmed that the kids can be difficult, I sympathized with the fact that D6 is changing, I observed that she seemed upset by it all, etc.


M39 D6 D3 (at S)
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Mozza #2502530 10/31/14 11:03 AM
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Did you believe what you validated to her or were you faking it?


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MrBond #2502540 10/31/14 12:32 PM
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Originally Posted By: MrBond
Did you believe what you validated to her or were you faking it?
I was sincere. It wasn't very difficult, considering the topic. If she had discussed her own Halloween plans on the other hand, it would have been a challenge.


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Mozza #2502573 10/31/14 02:34 PM
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Argh. I know you guys think I make too big a deal of the Halloween plans with the sexy cop costume and drinking games. But I can't get it out of my mind. I feel like I'm just before something irreparable is about to be done, with the vague hope of stopping it. But. I. Can't. Do. A. Thing. About. It.

Last year, we went around town with a duck and a witch to collect candies (W never liked it) and now she's doing this. I hate everything that vindicates her decision to leave. She's already in her costume and must be laughing her @$$ off at the office. She must feel so pleased with her decision. What a fun thing she would have missed if she adhered to the "cute couple" model! Never go back! In the conversation last night, she told me she'll be helping her boss (5 years younger than her) to get some "action" because she really needs it (her diagnostic of why her boss is difficult these days).

I know, I know: I should focus on my own plans. I have the kids and we'll be with friends. We'll have our own kind of fun. There's something to look forward to and torturing myself with what I imagine will happen to her is not helping...


M39 D6 D3 (at S)
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Mozza #2502575 10/31/14 02:41 PM
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My GAL is on a roll these days. I'm on day 8 of an 11-day sequence with something special each day. Mountain biking, music show, Halloween, dinner with friends, amusement park, badminton... Of course, there's also work. It may explain why I'm feeling better, although I attribute it to time. The kids are coming back tonight, which is always a bit unnerving because of the work involved, but I haven't seen them in a week and it sounds like they had a rough week with their mom. The week-end is packed with fun, including baking our very first cake. The week will fly by, as usual. I try to accept anything and to do new stuff systematically. I hope to discover new things that I will continue doing for a long time. It's nice to have this period of experimentation.


M39 D6 D3 (at S)
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Mozza #2502594 10/31/14 03:24 PM
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OH COME ON!

W just emailed me this, in response to an email about the kids' suitcase. Sorry for the language.

It's starting to get rowdy at the office!

[Boss] speaking to a colleague: "I feel dizzy when I get up..."
Colleague 1: "You need more potassium."
[Boss]: "What can I eat to get more?"
Colleague 2 by SMS to W: "Tell her to eat d**** for potassium!!!!"

LOL


Seriously, what's the point in telling me this? She wants to make me laugh?! We barely email all week. She wants to remind me that everyone at the office has sex on their mind? That she's so tight with a colleague that s/he can talk to her about eating d****?!

What should I reply? Should I set a boundary here? Or ignore it?

I have this draft email that I won't send, but it's the nice version of what's on my mind.

"I hope you're not doing this to hurt me, but it's hard for me to know that you're getting ready for a night of sex and alcohol, that your colleagues are turned on and talk openly about sex. I wonder which colleague can talk to you about eating d****. A few weeks ago, we were still making love and I had no idea you were going to leave me. I wasn't ready for this and even though I've made a lot of progress in detaching over the last few weeks, I'm not comfortable with the fact that you're going to bed with someone else. In fact, I still don't understand why you sent me this anecdote."

Edit: Our sex life was very good until the end: we'd do it 1-2 times a week without pressure and to the satisfaction of all involved. Something to be proud of after almost 10 years and two kids. It's not like she needed to get it from somewhere else. Why all the excitement about casual sex now? Her bad friend, Anna, sleeps around a lot and is an enabler of my W's separation. That's all I can think of.

Last edited by Mozza; 10/31/14 03:30 PM.

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Mozza #2502597 10/31/14 03:30 PM
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My vote- ignore



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Ignore it, do not respond at all.

I feel your pain with halloween, I'm absolutely dreading what I may see come monday. Best I can offer is block your W off social media (i recently learned this can be done discreetly) enjoy the weekend with your kids and try not to think about what she is up to. Remember while it may not appear like it, she is hurting too and likely far more then you are. Jumping into bed with someone for a one night stand after a 10 year relationship will be much harder for her then you give it credit. She is just trying to make you jealous, the less you respond, the more intrigued and concerned she will be about you.


Me 28 W 27
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No kids (fertility issues - mine)
Bomb 7/20/2014 - EA Confirmed
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She's pushing your buttons. Do not send a reply.


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OK, I'll ignore it. Thanks for the advice. I agree that it might not be that fun and, in fact, if she's too drunk it might be a minor disaster. It might be the wall of reality that she needs to hit.

This is taking me to a place of detachment after all. This and the frantic call from last night about the kids. This is not the woman I fell in love with, married and chose to have kids with. It's very sad that this woman is gone, for good or not, but I can't be in love with a woman who spits on my ideal of a family, who rejects our view of sex and love, and who doesn't love me.

Perhaps it's a self-destructive path. Perhaps she'll wake up from it and go back to her old values. At what age does it become pathetic and unfulfilling to get drunk across town dressed in an S&M costume? She might have 10 years left of this. Then again, she told me I kept her in a straightjacket and she wanted to find her true self. If that's true, then I need to move on because I can't be with her true self.

I shouldn't be carried away in her adventure. I need to maintain and reinforce my sense of self. I'm happy to have the kids for Halloween and look forward to their pleasure. I even have a costume this year.

It's just so hard to accept because just a few weeks ago...


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Mozza #2502683 10/31/14 06:15 PM
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Mozza,

You gotta let this Halloween stuff with W go. It is going to ruin a blessing that is right under your nose tonight: taking your 2 Ds out.

Doing this will only happen a handful more times in their lives, and what great ages to go out! Your focus should be on how you make this an unforgettable night.

And take pictures. Lots of pictures. And share them with W so she can have some form of sharing in the experience. It is the right thing to do.


me: 45 W:45
M 20 years
T 22 years
S14, S13, S11, D9
BD 2/28/14
D papers served 3/3/14
I moved out 3/15/14
MC start 4/2/14
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"But. I. Can't. Do. A. Thing. About. It."

This sums it all up. You don't like what you can't control. Right now you can't control your W so it drives you crazy.


M-43 W-40
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Emotion, yet peace.
Ignorance, yet knowledge.
Passion, yet serenity.
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Mozza, Nettles is right. You have the kids tonight. This is probably the most fun day for the kids in the year. Make it special. Enjoy them.

Sorry little off topic. Do you and your W rotate 1 week her and 1 week you with the kids. How does it work for you? That is what I want with the kids but W does not think it is good for the kids.


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A good Halloween wasn't meant to be.

As D6 recounted their week with mom, she more or less confirmed that there's an OM.

The colleague whom I suspected because he was so helpful throughout the move has spent four days there and D6 said that he was even there one morning when she got up (though she said he doesn't sleep in mommy's bed -- yes, I asked...). The chances that he's just a friend seem pretty slim to me, especially knowing that my W told me way back when that she might have a fling with him since he's good looking. I did the whole trick or treating thing with the kids, at a friends place. A good time was had by all, except me who was sometimes crying behind my mask.

As much as I had anticipated it, it was a rough moment to get this kind of confirmation. I was crushed. It was likely my ego, but it seems a very human failing to hope that your wife won't sleep with someone else, even after a fresh separation. I can't help it. I can't reason it tonight. I know I shouldn't focus on her, I know I should think of myself, I know. But give me at least a day to absorb the "confirmation"...

Now, where does that leave the DB-ing? I guess it doesn't change a thing since it shouldn't be about her. Perhaps it's a good scenario that she has a quick fling after the separation and hit reality (what, he's also imperfect?!) sooner than later. And in any case, I need to work on myself. But... it hurts.

Last edited by Mozza; 11/01/14 03:42 AM.

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zed: Yes, we split the kids one week at a time. I was advised to have the kids over for a dinner in the middle of the other parent's week because 7 days is a long time for kids under 4 years old.


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Mozza: my heart goes out to you. Hang in there.


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Originally Posted By: Mozza
A good Halloween wasn't meant to be.

As D6 recounted their week with mom, she more or less confirmed that there's an OM.

The colleague whom I suspected because he was so helpful throughout the move has spent four days there and D6 said that he was even there one morning when she got up (though she said he doesn't sleep in mommy's bed -- yes, I asked...). The chances that he's just a friend seem pretty slim to me, especially knowing that my W told me way back when that she might have a fling with him since he's good looking. I did the whole trick or treating thing with the kids, at a friends place. A good time was had by all, except me who was sometimes crying behind my mask.

As much as I had anticipated it, it was a rough moment to get this kind of confirmation. I was crushed. It was likely my ego, but it seems a very human failing to hope that your wife won't sleep with someone else, even after a fresh separation. I can't help it. I can't reason it tonight. I know I shouldn't focus on her, I know I should think of myself, I know. But give me at least a day to absorb the "confirmation"...

Now, where does that leave the DB-ing? I guess it doesn't change a thing since it shouldn't be about her. Perhaps it's a good scenario that she has a quick fling after the separation and hit reality (what, he's also imperfect?!) sooner than later. And in any case, I need to work on myself. But... it hurts.


Hi, I came to check out your story because of a post you wrote on another thread.

Hate to start with a 2X but, never involve your child in gathering info on her mother. It's those kinds of things that make D he!! for kids, parents using the kids. Be her shining light in all of this. Yo can do it.

About finding out W is most likely sleeping with someone else, think about this, she might have been from the beginning of the S or before. Does that change your stand on the M? I know initially it's a blow to the ego but once you get past that, see how you feel.

Leave her to her path right now, you have stuff you can work on. Right?


Me 57/H 58
M36 S 2.5yrs R 12/13

Let me give up the need to know why things happen as they do.
I will never know and constant wondering is constant suffering.
Caroline Myss
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I agree with Bug, Mozza. As a grandparent of children in the middle of D, I know it is difficult to keep your mouth closed.....but you can do it. And don't think for a minute it won't get back to W that you've been asking D6 questions.


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Mozza. Sorry you had that news from D6. Your ego is normal don't put yourself down for it. How you deal with it is the next hurdle for you. You have some great posters following your sitch.so listen to there thoughts. Again don't beat yourself up over the ego thing. It would effect anyone and if it didn't you wouldn't be on this forum. Take care

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Mozza, I'm so sorry that you're dealing with that news. At the same time, I hope it gives you some clarity in your situation. You probably suspected, and now you have confirmation. You're right that it doesn't make a difference in your DB'ing tactics. But it is painful, and there's no way the manage the pain except to move through it. It can't be avoided. Pain is inevitable, but as Pema Chodron says, it's the suffering that we can do something about. Watch your thoughts and try to break patterns of negativity and depression as you observe them. Turn your attention to things you can do something about (household chores, your daughters, your health). Leave your W alone and be strong for yourself and your family. You have lots of people pulling for you here!


M: 43 H: 39
D: 14
Married 15 Together 16
BD: 6/2014
S: 8/2014
OW revealed 10/2014
Instigated dissolution 12/2014, in progress
So over it!
Ahoy #2502939 11/01/14 05:10 PM
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Originally Posted By: labug
Hate to start with a 2X but, never involve your child in gathering info on her mother.
You're absolutely right. I didn't feel right when I was doing it and I could feel it wasn't my best self who wanted to know. I go around telling people that it's normal that it's difficult, yet I falter too often when something's hard for me.

I realize that I don't DB all that well after all. I'm good at keeping my distances from my W and to GAL, but I'm still very much thinking about my W and little about doing things for myself. I compare what she's doing with what I'm doing all the time, feeling inferior in whatever I'm doing. I've a hard time not wondering what impact would any change or activity have on her, what she would think of it. I feel like I can't enjoy life fully until she returns. Even as I keep my distances, I feel I still need to learn to validate and speak her love language. I've been cold rather than neutral. I know all of this is wrong.

By the way, sandi2, what did you think of my clarifications on the boundaries. Is it about controlling her?

Originally Posted By: rd500
You have some great posters following your sitch.so listen to there thoughts.
Yes! I'm very grateful for all the guidance I get here. As I'm reading DR, I feel I'm getting the right kind of guidance and support to take me through this. I'm very, very grateful.

Last edited by Mozza; 11/01/14 05:18 PM.

M39 D6 D3 (at S)
S 2014-09
D 2016-09

"You can't start a fire sitting around, crying over a broken heart" - Bruce Springsteen.
Mozza #2502944 11/01/14 05:41 PM
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I'm having a very good day with D6 and D3. At that age, they love being involved in anything, so emptying the dishwasher and cleaning the pantry has been lots of fun. They loved to tag along my 7-minute workout and we had a great laugh. Happy music has been playing in the apartment since morning. They've also been doing their own thing, crafting and drawing. We're about to go grocery shopping for some ingredients to bake our very first brownies ever. The girls are very excited about this. I have family visiting tonight and the girls love them.


M39 D6 D3 (at S)
S 2014-09
D 2016-09

"You can't start a fire sitting around, crying over a broken heart" - Bruce Springsteen.
Mozza #2502957 11/01/14 06:45 PM
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Ha! Friends of my parents I haven't seen in years just dropped by, unannounced. The woman says what crosses her mind and while I was speaking to her, she interrupted me to say: "You are really good-looking." I said "Thanks for the compliment, I take them all these days!" and she replied "It's not a compliment, just an observation." It's not something I hear often, by the way.

They were gone 45 minutes after they arrived. Did any of you send them my way? ;-)


M39 D6 D3 (at S)
S 2014-09
D 2016-09

"You can't start a fire sitting around, crying over a broken heart" - Bruce Springsteen.
Mozza #2503108 11/02/14 12:59 PM
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Quote:
English is not our native language. We speak our native tongue together and some of our emails are in English.


Okay, thanks for telling me. According to what another poster told me, things can sound somewhat different in translation. Although your English is excellent, perhaps there is misinterpretation in thoroughly understanding on each side.

The way you say something to her in your native language may sound somewhat different when translated in English? IDK. But I will keep that in mind.


It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Mozza #2503117 11/02/14 01:32 PM
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Quote:
By the way, sandi2, what did you think of my clarifications on the boundaries. Is it about controlling her?


I appreciate your clarifications. It appears to me that you may not fully grasp the concept that you cannot create boundaries to control her actions and whip her into doing things your way.

Think about a physical fence you would have around your house. This fence is a symbol to others that it is a boundary. Unless invited, they must stay off the property. It protects your home and family. You may not control an intruder, but you can take action if they do not respect that boundary. You will not tolerate anyone breaking into your home.

In personal boundaries, we have our dignity and well-being to consider. We want respect and will not tolerate mistreatment from others. We can't control what they do. The only action we can control is our own. Through our actions, we teach them how they can or can't treat us. Maybe they will care.....maybe they won't care. The point is to protect our own self, family, property, etc.

My question to you is what will be your action to these things you listed if she chooses not to honor your boundaries?

If she says, "No, I won't let the son have lunch with you during my week with them", how does this violate a personal boundary? What action would you take? Unless you can say how it violates your boundary, then it's simply your personal disapproval of her actions.


It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
sandi2 #2503177 11/02/14 04:37 PM
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Good points^^^


Me 57/H 58
M36 S 2.5yrs R 12/13

Let me give up the need to know why things happen as they do.
I will never know and constant wondering is constant suffering.
Caroline Myss
sandi2 #2503178 11/02/14 04:45 PM
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Originally Posted By: sandi2
Originally Posted By: Mozza
By the way, sandi2, what did you think of my clarifications on the boundaries. Is it about controlling her?
I appreciate your clarifications. It appears to me that you may not fully grasp the concept that you cannot create boundaries to control her actions and whip her into doing things your way.
Thanks a lot. I think I understand better, but I admit I'm puzzled about what I'm supposed to accept. It seems like she can impose many joint decisions, such as kids schedule. Perhaps I'm just referring to the wrong concept for certain things.

Originally Posted By: sandi2
My question to you is what will be your action to these things you listed if she chooses not to honor your boundaries? If she says, "No, I won't let the son have lunch with you during my week with them", how does this violate a personal boundary? What action would you take? Unless you can say how it violates your boundary, then it's simply your personal disapproval of her actions.
Boundary-setting:
- Finding alternative parking for stroller. She snoops on me twice a day when dropping it off (and there's some cake-eating in preserving access to 'our' place). It violates my desire for privacy at my home. I guess I could lock my backyard door, but I can't imagine we'd get there.
- Returning the rest of her stuff left in my apartment. She uses my apt as a storage space and having her control when she gets what is affecting me (I cry (alone!) almost every time she asks for something). What would I do if she refused? It's hard to imagine she would turn it down. I could leave it on the sidewalk, but again our separation is not so acrimonious.

Not boundary-setting?
- Insisting to have D6-D3 for dinner on Mondays. Early on, we made a quick arrangement that we'd split the kids 50/50 on a weekly basis. I was later counseled that 7 days is a long time for D3, so I tried to get ad hoc permissions for Monday dinners. She said no last time. I want to discuss a rearrangement of the schedule to get this lunch on the official schedule. If she says no, then I'll have to accept it despite the theoretical impact on D3. I would request it in some divorce settlement though.
- Sticking to the godmother we chose together for D6. The present godmother is just fine and the proposed one is not a stable presence in my W's life, just a strong supporter (enabler) right now, after years of falling out. She's also not a model I approve of, despite many qualities. If my wife goes ahead anyway, my action would be not to inform the current godmother that she's lost the title.

Do the DB principles mean that she can control the kids schedule and godmothership at will? It seems normal that I let her have full control of herself, but that I have a say on the kids. I'm sorry I haven't gotten to that point in DR yet. I'm sure it will become clearer then.


M39 D6 D3 (at S)
S 2014-09
D 2016-09

"You can't start a fire sitting around, crying over a broken heart" - Bruce Springsteen.
Mozza #2503187 11/02/14 05:30 PM
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Actually, I've another example. D6 is invited to a 3-day camp this Spring with her class. We need to respond now. I wrote on the invitation that I was okay with it and sent it to my W with the weekly suitcase. She returned it to me with a note saying she wasn't okay with it, nor D6, and she had responded.

If we disagree on child issues, does she get to make the final decision?


M39 D6 D3 (at S)
S 2014-09
D 2016-09

"You can't start a fire sitting around, crying over a broken heart" - Bruce Springsteen.
Mozza #2503190 11/02/14 05:35 PM
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Quote:
Do the DB principles mean that she can control the kids schedule and godmothership at will?


When it comes to these types of things and if the two of you cannot reach an agreement, then you may have to take it through the legal system.

But make sure you at least try to discuss it with her first.





It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Mozza #2503191 11/02/14 05:37 PM
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Did you say you were ok with it or did you say that you really wanted her to participate? To me, if you say "I'm OK with this" it means you don't have a strong vote. Also if your D6 doesn't want to participate, does her vote matter? In my house a camp is an optional expense so if the kids don't want to go I don't force the issue.

As for how to resolve disagreements on childcare issues, I would think it would be the parent with primary custody. But if you aren't satisfied with how it's going, you can ask to clarify, or suggest co-parenting couseling.


Me42, H40
D12, S8, S7
A revealed: 7/13
Sep 4/14; Agreed to D 1/15

She believed she could, so she did.
Maybell #2503193 11/02/14 05:39 PM
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Success stories... are you looking for long-term reconciliations or people in piecing? Crimson is piecing now, and that's the forum where you'll find him.

T0324 is piecing, she is on Newcomers.
Thornton was on Newcomers but isn't around anymore.


Me42, H40
D12, S8, S7
A revealed: 7/13
Sep 4/14; Agreed to D 1/15

She believed she could, so she did.
Maybell #2503198 11/02/14 06:14 PM
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Thanks a lot sandi2 and Maybell. I appreciate your help.

I should clarify that we never had extensive "arrangement" talks with my W, other than the 50-50. It was "I'm moving out. Guess I'll pick up my stuff and we'll share the kids 50-50." Then she was out. No parent has "primary custody" (unless it happens by default in the law and I'm not aware of it). There are no papers, no talks of divorce. Just two parents living separately and cordially agreeing. So she's not doing anything against an arrangement, she's just making unilateral decisions when we don't have an agreement. I'm asking if I'm supposed to let it all slip or ask her to discuss when we disagree about the kids. It seems only logical to me that we discuss, but I understand that it's considered as unwarranted "control of her" around here. Since the DB method is often counter-intuitive, I'm think I might not understand something or perhaps losing sight of my goal.


M39 D6 D3 (at S)
S 2014-09
D 2016-09

"You can't start a fire sitting around, crying over a broken heart" - Bruce Springsteen.
Maybell #2503204 11/02/14 06:46 PM
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Originally Posted By: Maybell
Success stories... are you looking for long-term reconciliations or people in piecing? Crimson is piecing now, and that's the forum where you'll find him.

T0324 is piecing, she is on Newcomers.
Thornton was on Newcomers but isn't around anymore.

Thanks a lot. Here's my updated list then.

Success stories
Thornton (M) - May to July 2014 http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2476476&page=all
Train - reconciled in 2014
Labug - March 2011 to December 2013
HopefulStill - reconciled in 2012
minkerman - Reconciled after 4 months in 2008 http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2310037&page=1
25yearsmlc (W) - 2005 to August 2008
FaithfulH - Reconciled in 2007 http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2503128#Post2503128
sandi2 (W)- ?
Starsky309 - ? reconciled after dated another woman
Butterflymom 127- ? http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2131182&page=1

Piecing as of 2014
Crimson - http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2500314&page=all
T0324 - http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2501662&page=all

I wish I had a link for each story. Right now, I see short stories (less than 6 months) or very long ones (over two years). Brrr.


M39 D6 D3 (at S)
S 2014-09
D 2016-09

"You can't start a fire sitting around, crying over a broken heart" - Bruce Springsteen.
Mozza #2503209 11/02/14 07:03 PM
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Mr.Bond (he used to have a different name)
Starsky used to be PuppyDogTails

PearlHarbr is a great one -- apart for a year, went to piecing, ultimately decided she no longer wanted the relationship. Her thread, if it still exists, is a great one to read about boundaries.

Did I mention ButterflyMom? Her threads are still around. I found her through her H, favoriteweirdo. He was an MLC H who joined the boards after he & BFM reconciled to offer guidance to LBS's.

Last edited by Maybell; 11/02/14 07:08 PM.

Me42, H40
D12, S8, S7
A revealed: 7/13
Sep 4/14; Agreed to D 1/15

She believed she could, so she did.
Maybell #2503224 11/02/14 07:52 PM
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Thanks again! I've updated my list once more. I really wish I had dates and links for each of them.

RECONCILIATION
Thornton (M) - May to July 2014 http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2476476&page=all
Train - reconciled in 2014
Labug - March 2011 to December 2013
HopefulStill - reconciled in 2012
minkerman (M) - Reconciled after 4 months in 2008 http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2310037&page=1
25yearsmlc (W) - 2005 to August 2008
FaithfulH - Reconciled in 2007 http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2503128#Post2503128
sandi2 (W) - ?
MrBond - ? Used to have another screen name
Starsky309 (Puppy Dog Tails) - ? Reconciled after dated another woman
Butterflymom127 and FavoriteWeirdo - ? http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2131182&page=1

PIECING AS OF 2014
Crimson - http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2500314&page=all
T0324 - http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2501662&page=all

LET GO
pearlharbr (W) - Nov 2008 to June 2010 http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1905843&page=43


M39 D6 D3 (at S)
S 2014-09
D 2016-09

"You can't start a fire sitting around, crying over a broken heart" - Bruce Springsteen.
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Mozza #2503232 11/02/14 08:06 PM
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Hey, if you don't want to clog up your thread with these a new thread where everyone can share the stories and helpful links they find on the boards would probably get a lot of traffic. You could even call it a wiki and we could add dates as we came across them.

Thanks for starting this. smile


Me42, H40
D12, S8, S7
A revealed: 7/13
Sep 4/14; Agreed to D 1/15

She believed she could, so she did.
Maybell #2503237 11/02/14 08:10 PM
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I agree with Maybell. It would be great if this were a thread that got pinned at the top! I've come across similar ones but all the links are broken after the great purge. Thanks, Mozza, for putting this together.


H 37 Me 36
Together 15 years
Married 5 years
No kids
BD Apr 2014
H moved out 2 Jun 2014
Mozza #2503243 11/02/14 08:20 PM
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Mozz,

you mentioned that the ordeals seem to be either 6 months or so, or years.

Unless a spouse is just kind of "Freaking out" with a quick resolution, (and it's still good to come here so they can avoid becoming a divorce statistic a year or two later)...

most marriage problems of any duration, require many months or years to repair.

IF you have a marital crisis, and it's deep and real, it has to be fully studied and repaired to restore the marriage.

NOT just reconcile but REPAIR AND RESTORE....and that takes time.

I've seen many couples rush the reconciliation and in fear, they move back in and pretend all is well....and only weeks or months later they are broken again, b/c they never really repaired the problems they had. (You can see the signatures wherein LBSers write "reconciled X date and then BD#2.." happens, which means they did NOT truly reconcile or restore their marriage; they just moved back in together.

One or both were operating in fear, not honest self evaluation and authentic change.

Maybe you can Learn to see time as a friend...

The "Secret" to doing all this is that it's not a secret. We tell everyone here to work on themselves and stop focusing on their spouse or what they think are their spouses flaws.

GAL is required for Detachment. IT cannot be stressed enough. It's also a great way to make sure you are happy and content in your life regardless of what a WAS does...and imo, GAL is KEY to your happiness.

(Its so odd to see people here for a long time, still berating their spouses and NOT owning their own role in the problems or working on becoming their best selves. I DO NOT think "venting" here is that helpful. I know for me, it kept me stuck in my anger and victimhood. When I stopped recounting all my h's errors and how HE hurt ME, I finally got somewhere.

Yes I can say honestly today, that my h erred a lot. He did hurt me AND our children. And once you admit all that, you have to ask yourself if you still want to make it work, but know it only works with forgiveness. Which means you do not get to throw it in their face, or hold it over their heads forever, OR act as if you are owed (that last part took me awhile).

You must let it go.

Focus on making yourself happy and healed. Staying in your own sandbox, and out of theirs.

Work on becoming the best YOU that you can become. Let go of the past and the scorecards of what they did to you, and all of that.

Learning what forgiveness is and doing it, means so much here. It is Key.

NO Long term marriage is happy, without forgiveness. Period.

IT DOES NOT MATTER IF YOU BELIEVE THEY "DESERVE FORGIVENESS" ---B/C you cannot restore your marriage without it. Period.

Begin Looking forward to the happier more fulfilling life YOU are creating for yourself.


Think about that^^^...

Who wouldn't want to be around you then?

Last edited by 25yearsmlc; 11/02/14 08:22 PM.

M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
OW
DIV 2/26/2018
X marries OW 5/2016

= CLOSURE 4 ME
Embrace the Change
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25yearsmlc #2503252 11/02/14 08:43 PM
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25, I take it back. You're not just the bomb, you're the whole B-52.

Thanks for that. I am trying to be that good person. Clearly I'm not there yet.


Me42, H40
D12, S8, S7
A revealed: 7/13
Sep 4/14; Agreed to D 1/15

She believed she could, so she did.
25yearsmlc #2503395 11/03/14 04:53 AM
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Thank you so much 25yearsmlc for stopping by. This is the 2x4 I needed.

I like to tell myself that I'm good at DB-ing because I look like it: I don't pursue, I don't confront my wife and I GAL a lot. But inside, I don't DB at all. I don't detach one bit. I'm still very focused on her. All my changes, I think of what her reaction would be. I regret that she won't see certain changes, as if they were for her.

But mostly, I'm still full of resentment. Just to be able to write this post, I had write over 1500 words of venting to a friend, to take the anger and disappointment off my chest.

Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc
most marriage problems of any duration, require many months or years to repair. IF you have a marital crisis, and it's deep and real, it has to be fully studied and repaired to restore the marriage.
Agreed. I know it in my head, but my heart wants my sitch to be aver ASAP. As if it were a solution to the real problems. I need to change my behaviors and my W needs to learn a life lesson. We can't go back together before that.

Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc
The "Secret" to doing all this is that it's not a secret. We tell everyone here to work on themselves and stop focusing on their spouse or what they think are their spouses flaws.
I also know that there's another side to my story, one that would help me much much more to be a better person and to preserve the respect that I have for the woman I want to "re-marry". It's to focus on my faults, the things that I can change and learn. Anything that will make me a better man for MY benefit, not even for that of my W (this one or another). I live with the consequences of not being good enough to this W. Either I learn and avoid that fate again, or I blame her and continue with my flawed behavior. Again, it doesn't matter if 5% or 90% of the fault is mine: I can only work on that share.

Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc
(Its so odd to see people here for a long time, still berating their spouses and NOT owning their own role in the problems or working on becoming their best selves. I DO NOT think "venting" here is that helpful. I know for me, it kept me stuck in my anger and victimhood. When I stopped recounting all my h's errors and how HE hurt ME, I finally got somewhere.

Yes I can say honestly today, that my h erred a lot. He did hurt me AND our children. And once you admit all that, you have to ask yourself if you still want to make it work, but know it only works with forgiveness. Which means you do not get to throw it in their face, or hold it over their heads forever, OR act as if you are owed (that last part took me awhile).
I like to know that there will be a moment to talk about our issues and my pain even. But it's not now. We're supposed to have lunch together soon and all I can think up are sentences to confront her about the OM. I have to let go and really start DB-ing or I will blow it.

My goal in the next 48 hours is to focus solely on myself, flaws and dreams. Also, to find a better balance in my life. I'll spend less time here. I'll spend more time reading DR. I'll focus on my work during the day, on my kids when they're with me. Reduce the obsession with the sitch and live more normally.

Really, thank you 25yearsmlc.


M39 D6 D3 (at S)
S 2014-09
D 2016-09

"You can't start a fire sitting around, crying over a broken heart" - Bruce Springsteen.
Mozza #2503415 11/03/14 10:39 AM
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Mozza... I seems to me you're very good at DB-ing even though you don't feel that way inside.

Is it realistic to completely detach and never look to see if the W is noticing your changes? And how do you do that without seeming cold?

It seems it's all about releasing the resentment.


Me: 44
W: 45
S: 11
Married: 15
Together: 18
BD: 9/29/2014
OM discovered: 10/16/2014
I left her behind: 12/14/2014
Mozza #2503459 11/03/14 02:03 PM
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I really needed to read 25's post today!

Quote:
My goal in the next 48 hours is to focus solely on myself, flaws and dreams. Also, to find a better balance in my life. I'll spend less time here. I'll spend more time reading DR. I'll focus on my work during the day, on my kids when they're with me. Reduce the obsession with the sitch and live more normally
.

Good goals! Good luck!


Me-44 (45)
H- 50 (51)
M-'96

S-18(20)D-15(17)D-12(14)

BD Feb 2014 (he works overseas)
home Oct(sep rooms)
(EAs possible Pa's unconfirmed)
insists wants D through July 2015
no more talk of D since
lost18 #2503524 11/03/14 03:39 PM
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Emergency! W is pissed.

1. She asked by email if we could swap her upcoming birthday week-end so that she doesn't have the kids and can go out. I made plans for that week-end back in September. I knew it was her birthday week-end but I didn't think she wouldn't want to have the kids. Now she says I should have told her when I made plans since it was an important week-end for her.

Reply idea: "I understand it's an important week-end for you. I made these plans back in September and didn't realize that I had to keep you informed for my week-end without the kids, nor that you wouldn't want to have them at that time. I didn't have them on my birth date, but I had them on my birthday week-end and made plans involving them."


2. She asked me for lunch today. I'm not available but mostly I'm not ready so I sent her a quick "I'm not available today" and she replied something along the lines: "I see you suggest no other date. This tells me that you don't want to have lunch and talk to me. Let me know if you dislike these lunches and I'll stop bothering you."

Reply idea: "I sent you a quick reply because I was on the go and knew I wasn't available today so I would free you up immediately for today. I'm willing to see you and talk to you. I'm available this week Wednesday or Friday."

Advice welcome!


M39 D6 D3 (at S)
S 2014-09
D 2016-09

"You can't start a fire sitting around, crying over a broken heart" - Bruce Springsteen.
Mozza #2503533 11/03/14 03:50 PM
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Sounds as if she is baiting you.

Either way, you lose.

Don't let her push you into responding.

1. Can you swap dates without sacrificing something you really want to do?
If you can, then decide if YOU want to. Then simply tell her your decision.
You don't need to "explain" it. She made her choices, you are making yours.

You can be kind and say, "I'm sorry but I already made plans that I can't change."

It's not your problem that she doesn't want the burden of the kids on her birthday weekend so she can go out. There are these cool things that were invented many moons ago. They're called BABYSITTERS. Maybe she can call one. (But don't suggest it--that's rescuing her. Let her figure this out. Or not.)

2. Lunch: If it's not in your best interests to go because you have plans, don't feel like it, won't be able to keep up your PMA or look your best, you are right to decline. And you don't owe her an explanation either.

What she thinks or feels about your actions is HER problem, not yours.

You do not have to let her know whether you like or dislike the lunches... this is just her being pouty. She wants you to put yourself on the line and tell her you still like being around her. I wouldn't waste one minute reassuring her that that's the case.
You can show her with your ongoing actions that you care for her and enjoy being in her company. On YOUR TERMS. Not when she demands something from you.
Be nice. Be firm. Be honest. Put yourself first.
"Sorry, today just won't work for me." (No reason needed.)

If you want to, "Too short notice. Perhaps another time."

She might want to get the idea that she has to ask you ahead of time because you're not just sitting around waiting for her to call.

(You're not, right? smile )


Personally, I'd let her stew in her own juice for a while.
She wants what she wants when she wants it and why is it your job to make that happen for her?

Go GAL and have lunch elsewhere.
But always be NICE about it.


---(G)GGG

PS: Sorry I'm not up on your sitch 100%. I assume SHE is the one who wanted the separation? And do you know whether or not there is OM? Because in either of those cases, I wouldn't be bending over backwards to protect her from feeling like she might lose you if she continues her behavior.



Me 54 Him 63
M 23 T 29
0 Kids
Funny Farm of Rescues
12/12 OW--
5/13 ILYBINILWY: A denied
9/13 Proof OW: ENDED
2/14 Got D papers on my BD
I kicked him out for my sanity
9/14 He wants to "talk"?



GoatGal #2503537 11/03/14 04:00 PM
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Ok, mozza,

I see there is an OM (you might want to add that to your signature), and you keep feeling like you want to talk about your pain and get some clarity during a lunch...?

I would avoid that like the plague.

You are nowhere near being able to have that conversation yet and remain fully in control of your emotions. It's too fresh and since you used the words "my pain" it's clear that this would be a bad idea.

No R talks. Not for quite a while, OK?

So she has OM and you're worried about her being pissed that you don't jump when she wants to have lunch?

I don't think so....


---(G)GGG


Me 54 Him 63
M 23 T 29
0 Kids
Funny Farm of Rescues
12/12 OW--
5/13 ILYBINILWY: A denied
9/13 Proof OW: ENDED
2/14 Got D papers on my BD
I kicked him out for my sanity
9/14 He wants to "talk"?



GoatGal #2503541 11/03/14 04:04 PM
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What GoatGal said....

I thought about it this way. How much am I respecting myself if I change my plans to accommodate my W sleeping with OM?


Both mid 30s, 2 young kids
BD 7sep14
XW moved on long ago, now living with OM1
D paperwork in progress
jim0987 #2503548 11/03/14 04:17 PM
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Wow, I didn't see your advice coming!

1. Birthday week-end. I do have real plans and they work better without the kids so I'm not going to change them. I wanted to clarify to her that I did not make plans to spite her, mirroring when the same situation happened to me. It's too much?

If the kids have seen the OM four days and one morning during their week with her, it tells me she doesn't need me to babysit to sleep with him.

2. Lunch. There are a few things that I want to discuss with her, including better coordination around the kids, so I actually wanted this lunch too. Last lunch was 5 weeks ago. I have to admit that I don't feel ready today (that's why I declined) but my mood can swing dramatically every half-day so I think Wednesday or Friday could work.

I have my boundaries but I don't want my wife to think that I'm difficult when I'm really not trying to be. It's part of my 180 to be very kind to her, never to get upset or lend her intentions. I want her to see that I've changed, that I'm truly collaborative and kind. That's why I explain a bit why I said things that might upset her. Too much?


M39 D6 D3 (at S)
S 2014-09
D 2016-09

"You can't start a fire sitting around, crying over a broken heart" - Bruce Springsteen.
Mozza #2503550 11/03/14 04:21 PM
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My guess is She's going to think you're being difficult any time you don't give her 100% of what she wants and when you do your being difficult by being so cooperative.


Both mid 30s, 2 young kids
BD 7sep14
XW moved on long ago, now living with OM1
D paperwork in progress
jim0987 #2503556 11/03/14 04:31 PM
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Mozza,


What jim said above is probably true.

Write this down and repeat as needed:

HOW MY WIFE FEELS OR WHAT SHE THINKS ABOUT WHAT I DO IS NONE OF MY BUSINESS.

If you are acting in accordance with your values and ethics, if you are being courteous, but putting yourself first in light of her choices which devalue you as husband, you HAVE NOTHING TO EXPLAIN OR APOLOGIZE FOR.

You do what you know to be right. You say little about it either way. Let your actions speak for you.

How she feels about this is her problem. Let her feel what that feels like.
That's the first step for her starting to respect you and understand that the crows she released are coming home to roost.

She's not SUPPOSED to like it.


And if it's not imperative, I'd hold off on any big discussions about anything. It can easily devolve into a R discussion or with you losing your cool.
I'd hold off on lunches or anything else that keeps you in her orbit.

Be busy. Put her off until YOU are ready to meet her with your agenda, your validating skills ready to go, and your PMA and calm, collected demeanor firmly in place.

If you're going to go into the center ring with the untamed tigress, you'd better make sure you've got your whip, chair, and a well-fitting top hat!

And anytime you deal with W, even via text, "calm, cool, and confident" is what you need to project.

Always.

Make sense?

That said. Always be kind, courteous, and civil. But don't worry about her being "upset" that you're not doing what she wants.
Do you think she cares how upset you are right now?
Do you want her to think you believe it's ok that she's with OM?

The past is the past. You can't undo it now by being super nice.
Now is the time to stand firm and show her a man she can respect.
Later on you may have the opportunity to soften towards her and be more comforting. But not now while she's behaving this way. That's just rewarding bad behavior.

I'm not saying to be curt or cold, but yeah. She's not gonna like it when you don't give her what she wants.

Be prepared for her trying to use this against you.

"See? I knew you were not going to be supportive/you're being mean to me/ you don't care about me/you're using the kids against me...."

Accusations and blaming will be next on the agenda if what she's doing isn't working for her. So prepare yourself.

---(G)GGG


Me 54 Him 63
M 23 T 29
0 Kids
Funny Farm of Rescues
12/12 OW--
5/13 ILYBINILWY: A denied
9/13 Proof OW: ENDED
2/14 Got D papers on my BD
I kicked him out for my sanity
9/14 He wants to "talk"?



GoatGal #2503570 11/03/14 05:12 PM
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Thank you guys! It's amazing to get such quick and detailed responses on this forum. It's tremendously helpful to help me think.

In the end, I said I couldn't change my plans for her birthday weekend and that it didn't cross my mind that she wouldn't want the kids. For lunch, I offered Wednesday and Friday. There are things I need to discuss with her regarding the kids because it isn't working. Face to face, I believe I have more chances to get what I want. I'll put my best PMA on.

I agree that I should stand my ground and not cross my boundaries to accommodate her. At the same time, I've read sandi2 or 25yearsmlc who say that we should keep the road to a reconciliation paved, so I want her to at least understand my good intentions. She seems to have a lot of anger towards me, probably the same feeling that lead to our breakup. She felt unworthy around me and we had lots of arguments in the weeks leading to the breakup. I'm trying to lower the temperature a little.


M39 D6 D3 (at S)
S 2014-09
D 2016-09

"You can't start a fire sitting around, crying over a broken heart" - Bruce Springsteen.
Mozza #2503576 11/03/14 05:28 PM
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Mozza,

Sandi and 25years are vets with great advice that usurps my own. I would definitely listen to them and take their advice.

Every sitch is different and you know yourself and your W best.

The things I'm reacting to when I read your thread are red flags to me about you tolerating things you shouldn't because you're trying to make up for past bad behavior.

Like your W using your place for storage, having access to your flat, making unilateral decisions about the children without discussing it with you first.

Then blatantly having a R with this OM, which in itself is very disrespectful.

"Lowering the temperature" as you put it, is very appropriate.
Cooling down the anger on both sides is important.

You want to keep the "road to reconciliation paved" but that doesn't mean you need to lie down on it so she can run over you with a steamroller!


(I apologize if my humor doesn't come across well. You said English is not your native language, however your writing doesn't reflect this at all. Your English is perfect. Are you by any chance Italian? Because of "Mozza"? Just a guess.)

There is being nice and allowing her to take advantage and control your behavior, and then there is being assertive and maintaining your values and integrity while at the same time being respectful and kind to her.

She is going to be upset with you at some point when you do not do as she wishes.
That is her problem.

By the way, my H had a lot of anger towards me too, about things which had nothing to do with reality. It was just his way of justifying his actions. If he could find something to be angry with me about, it would help him feel better about leaving me.


Try and figure out if your W's previous complaints had merit or not. If they did, work on those things. If not, maybe work on them anyway, just in case.
For YOU.


Me 54 Him 63
M 23 T 29
0 Kids
Funny Farm of Rescues
12/12 OW--
5/13 ILYBINILWY: A denied
9/13 Proof OW: ENDED
2/14 Got D papers on my BD
I kicked him out for my sanity
9/14 He wants to "talk"?



Mozza #2503577 11/03/14 05:29 PM
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Her email about her birthday week-end also said: "Now what, do we need to organize December already so that you don't have unmovable plans? Do we need to plans weeks in advance now?" I know she will make me pay for this. It's very rare that I upset her since the separation, but I don't feel bad about this one.

I had replied "Yes, we can organize December if you want" and she responded with a plan. She's seeing family and friends abroad (plans predate separation), so she wants to have the kids more before she goes and immediately when she's back. I said it's fine with me (I'll have them 3 weeks in a row over the Holidays) but I'd like to take them out for dinner during the long period in December when they'll be with her.


M39 D6 D3 (at S)
S 2014-09
D 2016-09

"You can't start a fire sitting around, crying over a broken heart" - Bruce Springsteen.
Mozza #2503580 11/03/14 05:34 PM
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Mozza,

That sounds fine. (And you can tell that she is sounding annoyed by the fact that you will not change your plans to accommodate her activities.)

Good for you.

"Make you pay?" by getting angry at you? It's hard to do, but just ignore this.
She can't hurt you more than she has already.

Stick to the facts, be reasonable, but don't be afraid to ask for what YOU want.
You get a voice too. If you want to take them out to dinner when they're with her, make that one of your conditions.


I wish you could stop worrying about "upsetting her". She's clearly not concerned about upsetting you.

If you're calm and civil, if she's upset with that, it's not your fault.


Me 54 Him 63
M 23 T 29
0 Kids
Funny Farm of Rescues
12/12 OW--
5/13 ILYBINILWY: A denied
9/13 Proof OW: ENDED
2/14 Got D papers on my BD
I kicked him out for my sanity
9/14 He wants to "talk"?



GoatGal #2503589 11/03/14 05:51 PM
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Thanks GoatGal! I much appreciate that you took an interest in my sitch.

Originally Posted By: GoatGal
Like your W using your place for storage, having access to your flat, making unilateral decisions about the children without discussing it with you first.
I see you've done your homework! Thanks a lot. These are things that, indeed, I want to clarify with her.

Originally Posted By: GoatGal
Then blatantly having a R with this OM, which in itself is very disrespectful.
She's not really blatant about it. I say it's confirmed, but it's mostly through stories of the kids, who tell me how much time he spends there and that he was there in the morning when they woke up. She told them that he wakes up very early and came to their place (he's a runner, so... maybe?) To me, she hides it. There's still a slim possibility that they're just friends, just like Amelia Earhart might still be in flight somewhere above the Pacific Ocean.

Originally Posted By: GoatGal
You said English is not your native language, however your writing doesn't reflect this at all. Your English is perfect. Are you by any chance Italian? Because of "Mozza"? Just a guess.
Ha! I was next to a person eating cheese the first time I was asked for an online nickname.

Originally Posted By: GoatGal
By the way, my H had a lot of anger towards me too, about things which had nothing to do with reality. It was just his way of justifying his actions. If he could find something to be angry with me about, it would help him feel better about leaving me.
Yes, I think she might try to justify her departure and she has many things to be angry about. I'm sure on her side, it's all my fault. Also, she must be confused by my attitude because when she left, I was devastated, hugging and crying, saying it was the worst day of my life, etc. And now, all I give her are these short, factual emails. Often, I don't even respond.

I don't think she's afraid of losing me one bit though. She's still reeling from what made her go and in the tropes of this new love. She's only using me when it suits her. She was intent on being cordial through the separation, as we'll be linked forever, so I take her lunch invitations for efforts in that direction. No expectations. Patience.

Originally Posted By: GoalGal
Try and figure out if your W's previous complaints had merit or not. If they did, work on those things. If not, maybe work on them anyway, just in case.
For YOU.
They do have merit. My resolution is to focus more on them this week and less on her faults. That's why I'm holding back in this conversation! Another resolution was to spend less time here and more doing my stuff, so I should go! This quick stop has been just what I needed to help me deal with her emails and requests.

By the way, we have an agreement for December and she'll let me have the kids for one dinner during her long period. It's all good. She hasn't replied to my email saying I want her to get all of her stuff though...


M39 D6 D3 (at S)
S 2014-09
D 2016-09

"You can't start a fire sitting around, crying over a broken heart" - Bruce Springsteen.
Mozza #2503740 11/03/14 10:52 PM
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Mozza,

I took the liberty of pasting this post from Theoden to Jefe. Thought it might help you out.
He's been on this board since '07.

"Sorry you are going through this hell. It totally [censored]. My prayers are with you.

I did all the things you are doing here: filling my wife's love bucket, being super nice, trying to change myself.

It didn't work. Not while she was having an affair. My pursuing behavior turned her off.

This is pursuing behavior. It goes against Divorce-Busting 101 and basic male/female dynamics. You are pursuing her WHILE she's having an affair. Consider that you are enabling your wife to cake-eat (benefit from having a loving, supporting husband AND another lover). You are acting like her plan B. Why should she choose? She isn't afraid of losing your love or having her little apple cart upset by you. You're the nice guy giving her what she wants. It's also true what women aren't attracted to men they don't respect.

Think about it.

Theoden"


---(G)GGG


Me 54 Him 63
M 23 T 29
0 Kids
Funny Farm of Rescues
12/12 OW--
5/13 ILYBINILWY: A denied
9/13 Proof OW: ENDED
2/14 Got D papers on my BD
I kicked him out for my sanity
9/14 He wants to "talk"?



Mozza #2503770 11/03/14 11:44 PM
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Originally Posted By: Mozza
Wow, I didn't see your advice coming!

1. Birthday week-end. I do have real plans and they work better without the kids so I'm not going to change them. I wanted to clarify to her that I did not make plans to spite her, mirroring when the same situation happened to me. It's too much?

Yes it's too much. Say you're "Sorry but" can't change these plans as they were made quite some time ago..." and MAYBE "hope you can find someone to watch the kids"...that's the most I'd express regret for her not wanting the kids on her birthday.


If the kids have seen the OM four days and one morning during their week with her, it tells me she doesn't need me to babysit to sleep with him.

2. Lunch. There are a few things that I want to discuss with her, including better coordination around the kids, so I actually wanted this lunch too. Last lunch was 5 weeks ago. I have to admit that I don't feel ready today (that's why I declined) but my mood can swing dramatically every half-day so I think Wednesday or Friday could work.

"can't today. X & Y work for me. Do either work for you?" Make NO mention of her mind reading/baiting you about how you MUST not want any lunches with her b/c you omitted suggesting another day...Geez.... crazy
(Is there an emoticon of an eye roll? I need it!)


I have my boundaries but I don't want my wife to think that I'm difficult when I'm really not trying to be. It's part of my 180 to be very kind to her, never to get upset or lend her intentions. I want her to see that I've changed, that I'm truly collaborative and kind. That's why I explain a bit why I said things that might upset her. Too much?



I get the 180 point and the need to show change b/c before all this, you were not so considerate. That's legit.

But as described above, you're showing enough change. Don't get into becoming a doormat to compensate for previous steamrolling, b/c it's not like it evens things out for you to be mistreated NOW b/c you mistreated her before.

Treat her right, & with warm respect. Expect the same. The End...

make sense?


M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
OW
DIV 2/26/2018
X marries OW 5/2016

= CLOSURE 4 ME
Embrace the Change
25yearsmlc #2503773 11/03/14 11:51 PM
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listen to 25. always.

My DB coach told me the opposite of controlling wasn't being a doormat. It was being collaborative.


Me:38 XW:38
T:11 years M:8 years
Kids: S14, D11, D7
BD/Move out day: 6/17/14, D final Dec 15
Zues126 #2503903 11/04/14 05:18 AM
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Wow, you guys are tough! I feel like I'm already holding back 95% of what I want to say. We have short, cordial communications and I hope to keep it that way. Ignoring her question about whether I'm reluctant to have lunch seemed too much. I told her I "agreed" to lunch and gave her two dates. I did explain that I had replied without alternative dates because I was in a rush though. This might have been too much.

I think there's much in the message from Theoden to Jeffrey that GoatGal pasted (thanks!): while she's with OM, nothing will get through anyway. This being said, I'm definitely not being super-nice to her.

In any case, we resolved both issues and I'm pretty sure she's still slightly upset. She didn't get her birthday weekend and I suspect she had big plans. Funny how the exclamation points and politeness go away when I can't enable her new life. I really had plans made months ago, but I don't feel any guilt for not saving her on that weekend.

She asked for a few things she had left behind so I jumped in to say I had "already thought" of sending her all of her remaining stuff by Friday. I wanted to state some element of initiative on my side, on top of implying that this would be the last such transfer ("think about what you left"). She doesn't react well when she loses control of the process, which seems like a good thing.

Originally Posted By: Zues126
listen to 25. always.
I know! I'm so happy she has taken an interest in my sitch. I have great people advising me here. Thank you!


M39 D6 D3 (at S)
S 2014-09
D 2016-09

"You can't start a fire sitting around, crying over a broken heart" - Bruce Springsteen.
Mozza #2503985 11/04/14 02:59 PM
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Last night, a close friend told me that he would have rated the intensity of my relationship pre-BD at 8/10 because I was always very protective of my W, making clear that I loved her as she is. It's nice to hear, though at the same time I feel like my W should have known this. I go back to the bomb she dropped during the separation talks: "I didn't know you loved me this much". It goes to the love languages and I didn't speak hers (words of affirmation) enough.


M39 D6 D3 (at S)
S 2014-09
D 2016-09

"You can't start a fire sitting around, crying over a broken heart" - Bruce Springsteen.
Mozza #2504001 11/04/14 03:42 PM
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My W didn't know I was proud of her which seems the most absurd thing to everyone who has ever met me. I guess we just don't do a good enough job of telling the person who matters most.


Both mid 30s, 2 young kids
BD 7sep14
XW moved on long ago, now living with OM1
D paperwork in progress
jim0987 #2504004 11/04/14 03:46 PM
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Originally Posted By: jim0987
My W didn't know I was proud of her which seems the most absurd thing to everyone who has ever met me. I guess we just don't do a good enough job of telling the person who matters most.


BF told me our relationship had "no affection", which boggles my mind. I'm not sure if he's just choosing to forget it or what, but....I think it's normal for a WAS to see the past differently than the LBS.

It could be that you didn't do something or it could be that it's what they're choosing to see.


ME: 38
BF: 40
T: 10y, no kids, no M (by choice)
BD: 7/14/14, BF admits to PA, wants out, lies about new R.
10/1/14: I move out, BF lies about move in with OW
12/4/14: OW confronted, reveals all the lies
Little #2504009 11/04/14 03:55 PM
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Originally Posted By: Little
Originally Posted By: jim0987
My W didn't know I was proud of her which seems the most absurd thing to everyone who has ever met me. I guess we just don't do a good enough job of telling the person who matters most.


BF told me our relationship had "no affection", which boggles my mind. I'm not sure if he's just choosing to forget it or what, but....I think it's normal for a WAS to see the past differently than the LBS.

It could be that you didn't do something or it could be that it's what they're choosing to see.


I think they choose to dwell on that which was a sore spot with them and revise history to make the entire marriage about that. That takes the focus off of them and puts it squarely on us. Problem with that is just like we own a huge part in why our spouses left, they too own a huge part in their needs not being met. Its a 2 way street no matter which side of house the window is there you're peering in. Both partners own 100% of the issues at hand. It's "joint and several" not "joint and equal".


Me 47 - W 35
M 9 - T 10
2 Daughters - 7 & 9
Discovery of EA- 8/4/14
S - 8/5/15
D mentioned - 9/11/14
R & Piecing - 3/17/15
Regard one another as more important than yourselves.
- Philippians 2:3
Jefe #2504015 11/04/14 04:16 PM
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To me, this goes to show our role in the separation. I just read 25yearsmlc repeating elsewhere that the OP is a symptom, not a cause. It pains me to admit it because I know he actively pursued my W. But then again, I had many things on my side (history, kids, marriage, inertia...) and my R should have been impenetrable. Maybe not perfect, as it's not possible, but impossible to break from the outside. I feel like I've let my W go dry emotionally and when she found some water, how could she resist?


M39 D6 D3 (at S)
S 2014-09
D 2016-09

"You can't start a fire sitting around, crying over a broken heart" - Bruce Springsteen.
Mozza #2504024 11/04/14 04:21 PM
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I told BF that while it doesn't excuse an affair, I understood what lead him to it. I agree with you on that score.


ME: 38
BF: 40
T: 10y, no kids, no M (by choice)
BD: 7/14/14, BF admits to PA, wants out, lies about new R.
10/1/14: I move out, BF lies about move in with OW
12/4/14: OW confronted, reveals all the lies
Little #2504040 11/04/14 04:47 PM
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Mozza Offline OP
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This will be important for us to remember when comes time for forgiveness. Part of me is livid that she could go out of the R to be with an OM. If we ever get back together, I want her to know that this was her last chance ever to do this (she briefly cheated 5 years ago). But to expect her to stay in a bad relationship and decline all her opportunities for a better life makes no sense. I need to forgive her because in many ways I pushed her towards the OM by not treating her right, by leaving her love tank empty and ignoring her pleas to talk. Right now, it doesn't matter what her responsibilities are: I need to work on my side and accept my responsibility. This is the only way to my goal.

10 pages? OK, time for another thread before this one locks.
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2504039&page=all


M39 D6 D3 (at S)
S 2014-09
D 2016-09

"You can't start a fire sitting around, crying over a broken heart" - Bruce Springsteen.
25yearsmlc #2562921 04/30/15 09:08 PM
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Wow...great advice...not to hijack anyone's thread but 25yearsmlc would you take the time at some point and read through mine? You have a bgreat perspective on a lot of this and I would welcome your input.


M 44 W 44
Married 2007
T-8 years
M-7 years
1 stepson (now age 16)
BD October 2014
I moved out Feb 2015
Divorce final ....(4-27-15)
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