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#2500440 10/24/14 11:13 PM
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A new post. Here are the prior threads:
MLC W Dates Lotsa Men Part IV - http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2500323#Post2500323

MLC W Seeing Other Men, Part 3 - http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2481792#Post2481792
(The first post here gives a summary of my situation.)


MLC Seeing Other Men, Part 2 - http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2468975&page=1
---
Quick update, I am recovering from surgery on my neck/spine. I live with my d20, and I have my s13 on weekends.

W left me and took our youngest 3 children on June 15, 2013 when our house of 20 years was foreclosed upon - this was my fault, I was responsible for the mortgage payments.

Early in 2014 while we were separated W decided to join dating websites, and started dating lotsa younger guys. I let her know that "you will not be married to me, and date other men", and gave her divorce papers to end our marriage. She would not sign, and instead we agreed to a "trial divorce" for 3 months (April 2014 thru June 2014).

Recently W has made known she is seeing at least 1 special OM, and has indicated she will shortly see her own divorce attorney to start/finish the divorce process. But nothing is seen, and instead both W and I have made efforts of being kind to each other.

Last edited by Wet; 10/24/14 11:14 PM.

Me-54 yrs; W: 50 yrs
4 kids- D: 22,20,19; S:15
"Trial" Divorce: 04/14 - 6/14
Separated: 06/2013- divorced 08/2016

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I'm confused, but that is nothing new. I pick up my s13 like I do every Friday afternoon. W calls before I leave, to go into excruciating detail of her Friday night plans to take d20 and her bf's pictures, but d20 hasn't confirmed, and d20 may bring s13 back to my place, and that W would not be there if I do pick up s13, etc. I politely listened.

So I arrive at W's place and W is waiting for me in the lobby. She sees my neck brace and she starts to gag - W has a major phobia of things around her neck, no sweaters, turtlenecks, necklaces, etc. And for her to see this neck brace makes her freak. I give her a sideways hug, and W explains d20 could not make her photoshoot.

W asks me to connect a printer to her computer for the children - she understands I am no longer her friend and would not do this for her. But for the kids, of course I will. Problem is she has the printer in a "new" box, and there were no cords. I'm not joking, she then hands me a shoebox stamped with "Flirts" all over it, and it has a bunch of charging cords in it, but no printer cords.

W just baked some cookies, and gives me one, and I tell her it is delicious. She gives me a plate of the cookies, a very nice thing to do. My Mom during Christmas has a large number of people make Christmas cookies and deliver them for the Christmas meal feast. I told W that I was going to make a batch this year (a 180 for me), and W offered to make them with me. Also, very nice. I did not expect W to be there at her place, but we ended up having a nice friendly time together.

I will also have d17 overnight Saturday night. So although I am still recuperating from my surgery, I will have my hands full by enjoying my time with three kids at my place.


Me-54 yrs; W: 50 yrs
4 kids- D: 22,20,19; S:15
"Trial" Divorce: 04/14 - 6/14
Separated: 06/2013- divorced 08/2016

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How is the recuperating going, by the way? Sounds like you are getting stronger - walking, driving, etc.

AJ


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Thanks for checking in AJ, yes, I am doing well. I am driving, went to work for a few partial days this past week. I was frustrated by the continued weakness in my left hand, and my doctor explained why - I now have a surgery consult for carpal tunnel surgery. I guess this is a good time to get things fixed.

I love having d17 over, as she is a movie watcher, while she does
her homework on her laptop. We watched 'White House Down' and Cary Grant in 'An Affair to Remember'. I love everything Cary Grant has ever done. I made sure she understood its importance because of the reference in 'Sleepless in Seattle'.

I thought the opening sequence in the movie 'Up' was the most depressing sequence in movie history. But the near end of 'An Affair to Remember' is right up there. Cary Grant and his love plan to meet in 6 months at the top of the Empire State Building, and woman gets hit on her way there, leaving her paralyzed, and Cary Grant is left waiting until midnight with no answers. Then his grandma Junee dies! Ow, that is really horrible sequence!

So a funny FB post from last night, yes, my W has a wonderful sense of humor also. W posted "Best date night ever!!!" With a slew of pictures of her and a couple of her young nieces and a nephew who spent the evening with and d17 and her baking. With as many dates as she has been on, I found it funny, and I am sure her family and friends did also.


Me-54 yrs; W: 50 yrs
4 kids- D: 22,20,19; S:15
"Trial" Divorce: 04/14 - 6/14
Separated: 06/2013- divorced 08/2016

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Cary Grant was really a great actor, that's for sure.

Yep, tune up time for Wet! smile

Your W - sounds to me like she is making peace with her life. No matter how things turn out with you and her, that's a good thing in my book. I suspect it is in yours too.

Keep healing, Wet. It's not a bad idea to finish healing from one before doing the other if you ask me.

AJ


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I absolutely love Cary Grant! Only one movie I saw of his that I didn't like, it was all gloom and doom. He may have even been a bad guy. Either way, he was awesome.

Glad you are on the mend. I wouldn't put a ton of effort in trying to figure her out. Just get better. Do your best to get yourself to a place where you know where you are with all of this. Get your life plan working.

Thinking of you.

kat


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I just had a really hard convo with W. She was crying. She is suffering panic attacks about finances. Her electricity will be turned off on Thursday. She knows I've been laid up for surgery, but she asks when can I pay her the child support. I told her I will pay her directly on Wednesday. I try and give her supportive words, but I mostly just listened.

Then W said she has to move forward with the divorce so she can get something from me. She says it would be so easy for me to make a lot of money. She feels like she should get more because she has lost all of her inheritance from her parents.

Backstory, her parents were well off, and used to give us substantial cash Christmas gifts. Sometimes, we used the money to catch up on our mortgage. Sometimes it was used to help W buy things like photography equipment, our first exotic cat that was eventually used for her cat breeding business, etc. Her parents apparently no longer provide the Christmas gifts, and so W thinks that there will be little given when they eventually pass away (they are elderly and in poor health).

I tell W its probably not the best time to spend money on her divorce attorney, and she laughs and agrees. Having two households is draining both of us, and we have also heard from d18 who is in need of rent help. I am a veteran of dealing with financial stress, and for most of the years of our m, I protected W from having to deal with this kind of stuff. But now she has to deal with it on her own. I hate seeing this.


Me-54 yrs; W: 50 yrs
4 kids- D: 22,20,19; S:15
"Trial" Divorce: 04/14 - 6/14
Separated: 06/2013- divorced 08/2016

“The strongest of all warriors are these two — Time and Patience.” War and Peace
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And yet this is what she wanted/wants. Everyone has to grow up sometime. Reality isn't always pretty and darn you might just have to roll up your sleeves and work rather than have a pitty party all the time. She likes to play the damsel in distress yet she needs to learn how to run her own castle. Tow very different realities.

I am sorry that you feel bad for her. She wants to have you live on even less than you do now. I hope you are teaching D18 how to fend for herself rather than have her think that you can always save her. Most people aren't in the 1%, most people do have to work hard to get where they are going. Some people just choose to believe that someone will always come save them.

You don't need to be her knight right now. She needs to figure this out on her own.

kat


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Her dealing with the finances is one of those harsh realities that shake their fairytale world.

Don't rescue her.



Experience is a brutal teacher, but you learn. My God, do you learn. - C.S. Lewis

Life is usually all about how you handle Plan B. - Jack3Beans

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Thanks Kat and Jack, you pulled me back me from the edge. So one funny(?) comment from W, was that maybe she should become a prostitute to start paying for things. I suggested she not consider that idea.

I am so proud of d20, who lives with me (rent free, full-time student and 2 jobs). She is sending d18 some money to help with her rent. They are very close, but I love to see family come together during tough times.

Also, d18 just got hired at Starbucks. She needed her birth certificate and was grousing at me all weekend long, when I told her I couldn't find it - I have a file with all important paperwork for each child, but could not find d18's file. Then first thing this morning she texted me a picture of the birth certificate, and so I apparently gave d18 her file, and she just came across it. But this is good news for d18, and hopefully takes some of the pressure off of her shoulders.


Me-54 yrs; W: 50 yrs
4 kids- D: 22,20,19; S:15
"Trial" Divorce: 04/14 - 6/14
Separated: 06/2013- divorced 08/2016

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I was going to mention that with your wife's parents, it is very possible that they decided that rather than give their money to their children when they are gone they would rather see them enjoy it while they are alive.

I am not sure I like your wife much. Has she always had this feeling of entitlement? She felt that you should be rich, you can always make more...no where in there do I see her coming up with an actual solution that doesnt hurt someone else financially.

Please stay firm. If you get through this better off financially it won't be with any help from her.

kat


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Kat,

I'm not sure I like any of the LBS spouses. smile

But that's not the point.

A suggestion stop responding to her martyrdom comments. At least in the rescuing way. Maybe next time... "Well if you think it would help. How much could you pull in a week do you think?"



Experience is a brutal teacher, but you learn. My God, do you learn. - C.S. Lewis

Life is usually all about how you handle Plan B. - Jack3Beans

Listen without defending; Speak without offending - FaithinAK

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kat727 - Don't they all have a sense of entitlement?!?!?!

Anyway, I agree with the sentiments of "not rescuing your wife". Unless you plan on doing that for the rest of your life whether things work out or not...I guess something for you to think about...

My two cents anyway.


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OW 11/28/12 -H still denies
Separated 11/29/12
Own place 12/12/12
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I suppose they do. I was thinking more of money in this case. Yep, my ex kept saying that he deserved to be happy. Sure we all do. You work on yourself, not start cheating.

I now have my daughters cold. No wonder why she felt awful.

kat


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Hi Jack, Kat and BRNR. Thanks.

Kat you have hit the nail on the head (as always). I don't think W can provide for herself. Perhaps she will surprise me and get a job, but during the 16 months of separation, so far she has not.

So yes, I don't think W will be able to keep her place without someone's help, and I am still married to her, so I may be first in line of responsibility. So I appreciate your earlier comments for me to back off and see what happens.

I'm trying...


Me-54 yrs; W: 50 yrs
4 kids- D: 22,20,19; S:15
"Trial" Divorce: 04/14 - 6/14
Separated: 06/2013- divorced 08/2016

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Hi everyone, I spoke with W yesterday and s13 wanted to go trick or treating tonight, and she asked me to take him. I agreed and was looking forward to it. W had s13's costume from last year and she said she would have him ready when I picked him up this afternoon.

When I went to W's place today, s13 was there alone. He had no costume. W told him he was "too old to go trick or treating", instead of telling him the truth - that she couldn't find a costume. I'm disappointed, s13 wanted to go out and I wanted to go out with him. But that's all right, making chicken wings and we will watch the Cleveland vs. Bulls basketball game tonight.

I am not sure that W is really dating just one OM right now. She told me she was going to hang out with one of her female friends to hand out candy, and then hit a bar afterwards. But it does not matter to me, I am just going to enjoy a weekend with my baby boy (don't tell him I called him that, ok?) and hopefully have some laughs.


Me-54 yrs; W: 50 yrs
4 kids- D: 22,20,19; S:15
"Trial" Divorce: 04/14 - 6/14
Separated: 06/2013- divorced 08/2016

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Hi Wet, reading your thread. Too bad about your son. And I'm sure he had fun with you.

It took me a long time to realize I was a grown adult woman and that I needed to go back to work. I never thought my X should just make more money to give me, though. Though I was protected as he was already earning a retirement, which we split.

I am a veteran and went through a program with the VA and they got me back into the work force and I am very happy about it. Though the first few months were hard. Is there a program through your state for that? (Back to work for long term stay at home moms?)

I never realized that my X really thought I should have been working all along. It was one of his unspoken things. In fact he repeatedly told me he didn't care if I worked or not. But later said how I should have been working. If only I were a mind reader!

I hope you have a nice weekend.


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Hey thanks, WenikTiki, A lady from Hawaii writing to a guy in Minnesota? This Board is great! Great advice, but even if I found a program, how do you suggest I inform her of it?

W does not listen to anything I say, and if I offered her job counseling advice, it would be seen as an attack. Not that I wouldn't mind. I'm just hoping she learn this stuff herself on her journey. Does this make sense?


Me-54 yrs; W: 50 yrs
4 kids- D: 22,20,19; S:15
"Trial" Divorce: 04/14 - 6/14
Separated: 06/2013- divorced 08/2016

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So.. she's irresponsible, gives conflicting information to your son and you, and feels entitled to money you have yet to earn, even though you're recuperating from major surgery?

And you wanted her back?? Or you wanted the old her back? Just so I'm clear smile

Quote:
I am a veteran of dealing with financial stress, and for most of the years of our m, I protected W from having to deal with this kind of stuff. But now she has to deal with it on her own. I hate seeing this.
Let me ask you something. When you were married, this might have been seen as a division of labor. She takes care of the kids and the house and you take care of the finances etc. You don't worry about the family and she doesn't worry about the financial aspects. A working relationship, right?

But it seems to me she "asked" you to let her live her life the way she wants to live it. She wants to be on her own and see what it's like, right?

So why do you not like the idea of her having to figure it out? Are you a control freak? Do you feel responsible? Do you have a need to rescue her for some reason?

I don't get it. smile

AJ


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Hi Wet,

I think you are like me and a lot of other men. We want to protect our wives and b mister fix it. Doing that is the worst thing we can do right now. I struggle with it all the time. Yesterday afternoon my youngest called me up and said she wanted to come home. I picked her up and asked her what happened. She had a fight with her older sisters. I asked if she had let her mother know. She said no, mom was on tread mill. I text wife when I got home that I had daughter. She said she had just tried calling her. I said she was welcome to come talk to her. Nothing more happened. I struggled with trying to fix things and make it better. I had to sit myself down several times and remind myself that it is u to wife to fix her own situations as that is what she has indicated she wants to do. You need to do the same. Let your wife learn. Don't try to fix. Things won't change unless you change your reaction.


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Originally Posted By: AJM
But it seems to me she "asked" you to let her live her life the way she wants to live it. She wants to be on her own and see what it's like, right?

So why do you not like the idea of her having to figure it out? Are you a control freak? Do you feel responsible? Do you have a need to rescue her for some reason?

I don't get it. smile

AJ

----
Thanks AJ, you asked ‘am I a control freak?’ I used to think of myself as the least controlling person in the universe. I let my W do whatever she wanted – from photography, to bird breeding, cat breeding, provide a rescue home for other people's kids in crisis, etc. Her chaos brought fun and joy into my rather sedate life, and into our home.

And my W had a certain ‘light’ to her personality. W would go about doing her mission for the day – volunteering at the kid’s school, making a meal for a friend or neighbor who was sick or had a baby, and lending an extra hand whenever someone in her extra-large family needed help. But she was irresponsible. She kept a messy house (except for the portions of the house I cleaned daily). She is bad on completing tasks, and so I was responsible for making sure kid’s homework was done, that kid’s got off to school and had breakfast, but we would both go together to the kid’s events. This was the life I enjoyed and chose.

But I am now understanding that I WAS being controlling by encouraging my W’s irresponsible life, so that she would be dependent on me. And even now, though she has walked away from our marriage and chosen her own life, I don’t want her to lose her carefree lifestyle. I would hate to see my W get a 9 to 5 job, even though everyone else in the world has one to support themselves, because that is not who she is. But this is no longer my choice.

And yes LT, I get it. I can’t fix my W problems on this one.

Thanks again AJ for helping me to begin to see my motivation for wanting W to be dependent on me, and thereby actually trying to control her. Yikes, this is hard stuff.


Me-54 yrs; W: 50 yrs
4 kids- D: 22,20,19; S:15
"Trial" Divorce: 04/14 - 6/14
Separated: 06/2013- divorced 08/2016

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Wet, you sure our W's aren't twins?

Quote:
And my W had a certain ‘light’ to her personality. W would go about doing her mission for the day – volunteering at the kid’s school, making a meal for a friend or neighbor who was sick or had a baby, and lending an extra hand whenever someone in her extra-large family needed help. But she was irresponsible. She kept a messy house (except for the portions of the house I cleaned daily). She is bad on completing tasks, and so I was responsible for making sure kid’s homework was done, that kid’s got off to school and had breakfast, but we would both go together to the kid’s events. This was the life I enjoyed and chose.


I'm a left-brain dominant engineer/science type, she is a free-spirited artsy type... I totally relate to ^^^^. It worked for a long time. But after her father died and the kids started moving away from being so "Mom dependant" to independence, something changed in her. And it started NOT working pre-BD, she said she "felt like a child", worried if she could take care of herself if I died, etc.

Quote:
Thanks again AJ for helping me to begin to see my motivation for wanting W to be dependent on me, and thereby actually trying to control her. Yikes, this is hard stuff.


So the next layer to dig into, is:

Why do you want her to be dependent on you?

What FEAR is behind that?

Because you wouldn't want your grown children to be dependent on you, right? You would want them to be self-sufficient, secure that they can handle life, right?

So why do you want different for your wife, who is a grown adult?

What are you afraid of?

Deep down?

Hm?

smile


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T^2, you humble me by visiting my thread. You are the model of db'ing (so called by rH). Your patience, perseverance and thriving after the final d decision was made is inspirational. 19 threads, and over 5 years? Oh Lord, please, not that long!

T^2 asked: "Why do you want her to be dependent on you?

What FEAR is behind that?"

Thank you also for your questions. Why do I want W to be dependent on me? This is simple, in a relationship, a friendship, or even at work, we all want to be needed. Her "needing" me made me feel like I was irreplaceable.

The FEAR part is tuff. Why do I fear losing my W being dependent on me? It has to be bc I feel like W won't love me unless I was there to take care of her. It's funny bc I have a healthy ego, except when it comes to women. Women are my 'kryptonite', if you will allow me to compare myself to Superman. grin

So one part of my brain tells myself I am funny, charming, intelligent, thoughtful and a really pleasant person to be around. Yet, this wasn't enough for my marriage. I still fear my W finding me as someone who is not worth loving. I guess I'm not facing the reality of my situation - that my W prefers a life without me, and that this could be finalized at any time. As silly as this sounds, something inside me wants to believe that one day all things will be better, and I can start "reconnecting" with my W, perhaps bc I don't believe my W can handle things on her own (and not bc she just loves me). And I still believe this after 16+ months of separation, and there is no movement made toward us even being friends anymore.


Me-54 yrs; W: 50 yrs
4 kids- D: 22,20,19; S:15
"Trial" Divorce: 04/14 - 6/14
Separated: 06/2013- divorced 08/2016

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Quote:
Her "needing" me made me feel like I was irreplaceable.


So you had some self-esteem/ego/pride tied to her needing you it sounds like. I get that, I did as well. Her telling you, and showing you by moving out, that she doesn't WANT to "need" you anymore probably left a big gaping wound...us guys are genetically wired for that provider/protector role.

So here you are with this big empty space in your ego/self-esteem that W previously filled. You "depended" on her to fill that space, gave her control, because....

Quote:
It has to be bc I feel like W won't love me unless I was there to take care of her. It's funny bc I have a healthy ego, except when it comes to women.


So is the REAL fear, the core FEAR behind that... do you fear that you are unlovable by women, not just your W, but all women?

Quote:
I still fear my W finding me as someone who is not worth loving.


Do you love yourself?

If not, why??

Quote:
So one part of my brain tells myself I am funny, charming, intelligent, thoughtful and a really pleasant person to be around. Yet, this wasn't enough for my marriage.


Some of that is mind-reading...only W knows the real core truth, if even she does... thing is, she may not even know, but just "feels" like this is what she "needs" to do (my stbxw's words).

The important question is... are you afraid that underneath it all, that YOU are not enough?

Do you think that's driving the lingering judgemental thoughts btw?

That's enough for now. I'm interested in your responses.

smile


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Talking about fear and whether or not I love myself? Really?! Can't we talk about the Vikings instead?

OK, here goes. T^2, do you know what I really fear most? I fear I'm caught in your situation - where you went thru this for 5+ years, you did everything right, and you still ending up with the divorce. Yes, I know this is why we get GAL, and work on changing us. But I want a happy ending to my story.

Why do I fear losing my W so much? It's not really losing my W that I fear, as I have already lost her by being separated for 16 months. It's losing US, the vision of US with our grandchildren, US over the holidays. US in better years together. Yes, a big chunk of it is our great family which is already split - d20 with me and little contact with W, and the youngest 2 children with W, and d17 having little contact with me. I fear that this split will get even bigger with OP in our lives.

I also fear the idea of ever getting back with my W. She has gone out with over 100+ men (conservatively) over the past 6 months. Who is this person? W is different and I am different too. Deep down, I know that W will be alright on her own, though I wish she needed me. But I don't see anyway we could ever get back together.

So I am sure you see the problem - I am afraid of change and of things not changing. I am comfortable now, and I equate change with bad things happening (June 15, 2013 when I lost my W, my children, my health, and my home was a real bad day). So I need to stop being Eeyore, and start seeing the hope that tomorrow can bring.

Yes, I love myself. I think I was the best husband that there ever was, and I see areas to continue improving myself. When I choose to end our m, I will find someone else (who will undoubtedly be spectacular) to share my life with. I do not fear that I will not be a great companion for someone else sometime down the road.

Why do I have lingering "judgmental" thoughts/actions of my W's behavior? It's a good question (much better than q's about 'fear' wink ). I have accepted what my W is doing, but I also see how it hurts our children. A continuing prayer for myself is that I ask God to help me to be willing to forgive. For today, that is what I am doing.


Me-54 yrs; W: 50 yrs
4 kids- D: 22,20,19; S:15
"Trial" Divorce: 04/14 - 6/14
Separated: 06/2013- divorced 08/2016

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Originally Posted By: Wet
OK, here goes. T^2, do you know what I really fear most? I fear I'm caught in your situation - where you went thru this for 5+ years, you did everything right, and you still ending up with the divorce. Yes, I know this is why we get GAL, and work on changing us. But I want a happy ending to my story.


So....what exactly do you define as a happy ending ??

Is it merely getting the results that you want ??

Maybe you should ask T-deuce which version of himself he would choose ??



Originally Posted By: Wet

Why do I fear losing my W so much? It's not really losing my W that I fear, as I have already lost her by being separated for 16 months. It's losing US, the vision of US with our grandchildren, US over the holidays. US in better years together. Yes, a big chunk of it is our great family which is already split - d20 with me and little contact with W, and the youngest 2 children with W, and d17 having little contact with me. I fear that this split will get even bigger with OP in our lives.

I also fear the idea of ever getting back with my W. She has gone out with over 100+ men (conservatively) over the past 6 months. Who is this person? W is different and I am different too. Deep down, I know that W will be alright on her own, though I wish she needed me. But I don't see anyway we could ever get back together.

So I am sure you see the problem - I am afraid of change and of things not changing. I am comfortable now, and I equate change with bad things happening (June 15, 2013 when I lost my W, my children, my health, and my home was a real bad day). So I need to stop being Eeyore, and start seeing the hope that tomorrow can bring.


Wet, you confuse me...

One one side of the fence, you say that you fear the loss....


Originally Posted By: Wet

Yes, I love myself. I think I was the best husband that there ever was, and I see areas to continue improving myself. When I choose to end our m, I will find someone else (who will undoubtedly be spectacular) to share my life with. I do not fear that I will not be a great companion for someone else sometime down the road.


Yet, on the other side of the same fence, you talk of just replacing your spouse...

So, I am going to take you back to some seemingly basic questions here..

Do you Love her ???

What does Love mean to YOU ( not counting your role within a relationship) ??

What is the difference between Love and Obligation to you ??

What is the difference between Love and Guilt to you ??




Originally Posted By: Wet

Why do I have lingering "judgmental" thoughts/actions of my W's behavior? It's a good question (much better than q's about 'fear' wink ). I have accepted what my W is doing, but I also see how it hurts our children. A continuing prayer for myself is that I ask God to help me to be willing to forgive. For today, that is what I am doing.



I see your "judgement" on a couple levels here...

And that is why I keep asking you about it, and asking you to be aware of it.

Because I don't think that you see it, or maybe you do see it, and choose to ignore it (which is way worse)...

I see you as a score keeper, or maybe just keeping score now, like this is a win or loose situation. And the way that you defined the above, with your fears to T-deuce, this seems to be all about winning.

So what do you win if you finish this with a ring on your finger still ???

What do you loose if you finish this with a ring on your finger ???

Do you win if you start anew with somebody else ??

Do you win if you start anew with your current spouse ??

What exactly, is YOUR prize here ???

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Mach1 asks: “So....what exactly do you define as a happy ending ??"

Whoops, my use of that phrase was, um, shall we say a poor choice? Let’s say “ideal outcome” instead?

Mach1: Is it merely getting the results that you want ??

Yes, I desire my marriage to be saved, but please don’t make me feel bad about this. I think marriage is an important institution, and best for everyone involved if it is worked on. As MWD has made clear in DR, divorce is likely hurtful to everyone involved. I am not trying to “win” here, I am standing for my family.


Mach1: Maybe you should ask T-deuce which version of himself he would choose ??

Well, he stood for his marriage and family for much longer than I can imagine. He has made clear that his time was well spent, working on himself. I just wish I was talented enough to play in a band, on this, I am envious. smile
--------------

Mach1: Wet, you confuse me...
Yes, I do that to everyone.

Mach1: On one side of the fence, you say that you fear the loss....

Yet, on the other side of the same fence, you talk of just replacing your spouse...

This I can answer clearly. I am facing reality. My W expresses no interest in having any relationship with me. There is no one who will “replace” my W. I am expressing an interest in sharing my life sometime in the future with someone else. Today, I am not ready to do this.


Mach1: So, I am going to take you back to some seemingly basic questions here..

Do you Love her ???

I absolutely love my W. I am here on this board and using DB principals as best I can for the past 4 months. My withdrawing from contact with my W is the best way I can show love for both of us.

One quick, simple example - I called my W this afternoon bc d17 had not responded to an invitation to go to the movies with me tonight. And W had just arrived with d17 to a charity where people volunteer to assemble meals to help the poor in other nations. I love this about my W, her self-giving, and willingness to help others. That part of her is still there, and intrigues me enough to continue standing for my m.


Mach1: What does Love mean to YOU ( not counting your role within a relationship) ??

Love is a verb, not just a feeling in our hearts. Love involves a committed relationship. Love seeks the best for the other person’s needs and desires, while also respecting the other areas where there is not an agreement (not insisting on one’s own way). Love needs to have both people give and take for it to work in a committed relationship. Growth, making each other better people, and no matter the trial, having another person there with you are all of the benefits included with love. FWIW, this is not just marital love, I have this with a number of my male friends and family members also.

Mach1: What is the difference between Love and Obligation to you ??

Obligation is a duty that is owed. In love (excuse my flight of fancy here), while with love there is light and joy in the actions. When I give something to the person who is loved where it is something they would appreciate is enough to make my day, and causes me to want to do other things/actions that they would appreciate.

Mach1: What is the difference between Love and Guilt to you ??

Love and Guilt? I’ll try – guilt is a consequence for actions where someone is hurt, for something that was done or left undone. Love is action to further a committed relationship.
----------

Mach1: I see your "judgement" on a couple levels here...

And that is why I keep asking you about it, and asking you to be aware of it.

Because I don't think that you see it, or maybe you do see it, and choose to ignore it (which is way worse)...

I think we are stepping into an area involving my faith. And central to my faith is Grace and Mercy, because I have been forgiven for so much, I am able to show Grace and Mercy to others. I accept that my W is in process, and on her own journey. I am giving her space not only to save me, but to let her grow into the woman that results for her choices.

I have only expressed any sort of judgmental attitude only one in the past 6 months of my M. And this is when before my surgery my W had told our d20 of her r with an OM. I expressed my “judgment” bc W’s actions were now hurting our children, I told her this was disrespectful to me, and that she was in an adulterous relationship, which should not be shared with our children. All other times I have been arm’s length friendly with her, PMA, and I’ve otherwise done no sort of pursuing.


Mach1: I see you as a score keeper, or maybe just keeping score now, like this is a win or loose situation. And the way that you defined the above, with your fears to T-deuce, this seems to be all about winning.

I am a competitive person, so you may be right. But I really am not tied to a particular outcome here. My W has chosen her path, and I can do nothing to help her along her path. One point on my expressed “fear” of other women, which I should clarify is that I have only been with one women in my 52 years of life, and so the idea of being with someone else right now is not something that is appealing to me. I would prefer, and I hope that I can end my days being with just my W. But I like relationships too much, and if a divorce happens, I hope that I can find someone to share my life with, and appreciate them for who they are.

Mach1: So what do you win if you finish this with a ring on your finger still ??? Do you win if you start anew with your current spouse ??
What do you lose if you finish this with a ring on your finger ???

]As I stated earlier, I think everyone in my family wins if we work through this and work on our marriage. If we put in the work, together. If my ‘ideal outcome’ does come about, I would be excited to see if the new me and the new W could have a wonderful, loving r.


Mach1: Do you win if you start anew with somebody else ??

If a divorce is in my future, yes, a new relationship will perhaps be a win, maybe a loss, but more of what this journey of life is all about. I am assured of no outcomes in future relationships, as my current separation has shown me.


What exactly, is YOUR prize here ???

I know the correct answer here is ME, I am the prize. But right now, my primary focus is my W, and helping her coming thru her MLC by using the most powerful weapon on Earth – prayer.

Last edited by Wet; 11/06/14 01:05 AM.

Me-54 yrs; W: 50 yrs
4 kids- D: 22,20,19; S:15
"Trial" Divorce: 04/14 - 6/14
Separated: 06/2013- divorced 08/2016

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BTW, Mach1 I really appreciate the time you have taken in reading my thread, and formulating your really (too) difficult questions. You have a wonderful heart in wanting to help us here. So again let me say - thank you.


Me-54 yrs; W: 50 yrs
4 kids- D: 22,20,19; S:15
"Trial" Divorce: 04/14 - 6/14
Separated: 06/2013- divorced 08/2016

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I see the gears turning. I think that it might be useful to think about these a bit more and re-read them a little later, Wet. Say, a year from now. smile

So just a few light questions:

Quote:
But I want a happy ending to my story.
That caught my attention too. I realize you re-worded it later, but let's be honest, you do want a happy ending to your story. And it is no surprise that you see the dangers in divorce. The dangers to your family. The family that you fought for so many years for.

While you're thinking - Do you think it's possible to have a happy ending to your story? Be honest with yourself.

Quote:
But right now, my primary focus is my W, and helping her coming thru her MLC by using the most powerful weapon on Earth – prayer.
And I'm curious about this one. When you pray for your W - is it for her? Are there also others you pray for? What does forgiveness look like to you? What are the actions vs. the feelings?

I do think you highlighted something - your dislike of change. I wonder is it dislike of change or change you didn't initiate?


How's the rehab going? Getting healthy?


AJ


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Today I am wise, so I am changing myself."
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Hi Wet,

I had many of the same fears you have about split family and loosing contact with children. My kids were with wife and I had little to no contact with them when this started. Best advice I got was to give it time and be the best father you can be and they would figure it out and come back. I now have all three girls living with me and visiting their mom two nights a week. They can choose to go live with their mother.

Do the right thing for your children. Be the best you can be near or far. Eventually the lies will be questioned and your children will return. Stop hoping and dwelling on a fairy tale and live for today, your children, and yourself. Stop showing fear.


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Originally Posted By: Wet
Originally Posted By: Mach1
asks: “So....what exactly do you define as a happy ending ??"


Whoops, my use of that phrase was, um, shall we say a poor choice? Let’s say “ideal outcome” instead?


Ideal for who....you ? Her ???



Originally Posted By: Wet
Originally Posted By: Mach1
Is it merely getting the results that you want ??


Yes, I desire my marriage to be saved, but please don’t make me feel bad about this. I think marriage is an important institution, and best for everyone involved if it is worked on. As MWD has made clear in DR, divorce is likely hurtful to everyone involved. I am not trying to “win” here, I am standing for my family.


I'm not tryin to make you feel bad at all...

Why would you feel bad ?

And I can tell you that Divorce isn't "likely" hurtful to all...

Divorce IS hurtful to all involved...



Originally Posted By: Wet
Originally Posted By: Mach1
Maybe you should ask T-deuce which version of himself he would choose ??


Well, he stood for his marriage and family for much longer than I can imagine. He has made clear that his time was well spent, working on himself. I just wish I was talented enough to play in a band, on this, I am envious. smile
--------------



Personally, I think that admirable part of T2, is that while he started standing, just for his Marriage and Family. What he eventually stood for, was himself. To change things within himself, that would allow a new relationship to forge for the future....his future. And whether or not his current spouse was a part of that, was yet to be determined...

And he lived on Faith, that things would work out the way they were supposed to, not just the way he hoped it would.

And THAT allowed him to make the choices for himself, and his boys down the road...

Now THAT, is inspirational...


Originally Posted By: Wet
Originally Posted By: Mach1
So, I am going to take you back to some seemingly basic questions here..

Do you Love her ???


I absolutely love my W. I am here on this board and using DB principals as best I can for the past 4 months. My withdrawing from contact with my W is the best way I can show love for both of us.



I realize that you are fairly new at this..

IF, she is MLC, at 4 months ? You can still smell the gunpowder from the starter's pistol....

Google....Chinese Bamboo Tree...

And let me know what you come up with there....




Originally Posted By: Wet
Originally Posted By: Mach1
What does Love mean to YOU ( not counting your role within a relationship) ??


Love is a verb, not just a feeling in our hearts. Love involves a committed relationship. Love seeks the best for the other person’s needs and desires, while also respecting the other areas where there is not an agreement (not insisting on one’s own way). Love needs to have both people give and take for it to work in a committed relationship. Growth, making each other better people, and no matter the trial, having another person there with you are all of the benefits included with love. FWIW, this is not just marital love, I have this with a number of my male friends and family members also.


I read that too , Wet...

I wanna know how YOU describe it....




Originally Posted By: Wet
Originally Posted By: Mach1
What is the difference between Love and Obligation to you ??


Obligation is a duty that is owed. In love (excuse my flight of fancy here), while with love there is light and joy in the actions. When I give something to the person who is loved where it is something they would appreciate is enough to make my day, and causes me to want to do other things/actions that they would appreciate.


So, is there Love within Obligation ??

Obligation within Love ??

WHERE is that line for you ???

You stated that you loved your spouse, yet in your daily life, was there obligation more than love ?

Love more than obligation ?



Originally Posted By: Wet
Originally Posted By: Mach1
I see your "judgement" on a couple levels here...

And that is why I keep asking you about it, and asking you to be aware of it.

Because I don't think that you see it, or maybe you do see it, and choose to ignore it (which is way worse)...


I think we are stepping into an area involving my faith. And central to my faith is Grace and Mercy, because I have been forgiven for so much, I am able to show Grace and Mercy to others. I accept that my W is in process, and on her own journey. I am giving her space not only to save me, but to let her grow into the woman that results for her choices.

I have only expressed any sort of judgmental attitude only one in the past 6 months of my M. And this is when before my surgery my W had told our d20 of her r with an OM. I expressed my “judgment” bc W’s actions were now hurting our children, I told her this was disrespectful to me, and that she was in an adulterous relationship, which should not be shared with our children. All other times I have been arm’s length friendly with her, PMA, and I’ve otherwise done no sort of pursuing.



I know that I have pointed out judgement from you on three occasions since you have been posting (all on your part IV thread), and I can go back and show them to you if you like...

So once again, I see judgement even in what you wrote above^^

You are standing on the Faith soapbox...

You say that you were forgiven through Grace and Mercy, and you say that you have shown Grace and Mercy, yet you did not mention that you showed any forgiveness....

Have you ???

Your words, at times, say that you are not judgmental, yet at several interactions with her, when you had the chance to show something new, you chose to show guilt and judgement towards her for her choices.

What also comes with that, is showing her that you are superior to her, just because your choices are different.

Are you superior to her ??

Why do you show that to her ???

An MLCer can smell judgement from a mile away...

I would guess that it is the thing that most of them fear the most....judgement for their actions.



Originally Posted By: Wet
Originally Posted By: Mach1
What exactly, is YOUR prize here ???


I know the correct answer here is ME, I am the prize. But right now, my primary focus is my W, and helping her coming thru her MLC by using the most powerful weapon on Earth – prayer.


Well, that certainly is the textbook answer.

I am not convinced that God gets to involved with affairs of the heart. I think that he has given us free will, and that he puts things, people and situations in our lives that teach us the lessons that we need, not just the ones that we want....

So, I do believe that God gives exactly the problems that we need, in order to fix ourselves....

But that's just my take on things...

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Originally Posted By: AJM
I see the gears turning. I think that it might be useful to think about these a bit more and re-read them a little later, Wet. Say, a year from now. smile


Wet: I am feeling like a little fishy surrounded by three veteran Sharks (AJ, T^2, and Mach1), and the sharks smell blood! I know you guys are good and helpful, but dang you can also be intimidating at the same time.

Originally Posted By: AJM
So just a few light questions:


So there is nothing "light" about your q's. They are usually spot on and thoughtful.


Originally Posted By: AJM
I realize you re-worded it later, but let's be honest, you do want a happy ending to your story. And it is no surprise that you see the dangers in divorce. The dangers to your family. The family that you fought for so many years for.

While you're thinking - Do you think it's possible to have a happy ending to your story? Be honest with yourself.


OK, keep using "happy ending", but every time I see it, I'm going to giggle. I really don't know if a 'happy ending' is possible. I know the long odds, with a W who is determined to get away from the marriage. I find that having hope hurts my detaching from the sitch. So right now I really don't think about W or the possibility of ever getting back with her. But with the 3 Shark's questions, it is helping me to remember that DB can work. For this I am grateful.


Originally Posted By: Wet
But right now, my primary focus is my W, and helping her coming thru her MLC by using the most powerful weapon on Earth – prayer.
Originally Posted By: AJM
And I'm curious about this one. When you pray for your W - is it for her? Are there also others you pray for? What does forgiveness look like to you? What are the actions vs. the feelings?


My prayer for my W is evolving. I started praying for W to come back. But over the past month I pray for W to return to God, and to not have a casual view of sin. Oops, my judgmentalism is showing again. eek I pray for many people in my life, including those on this board.

On forgiveness, I am not ready to forgive yet. But I'm working on it. I understand its importance, and again this is a process. "Actions vs. feelings"? I really have so little contact with W that I don't have the opportunity for either.

Originally Posted By: AJM
I do think you highlighted something - your dislike of change. I wonder is it dislike of change or change you didn't initiate?



I am a turtle. I am slow to initiate change. So yes, I dislike change not initiated by me.

Originally Posted By: AJM
How's the rehab going? Getting healthy?


AJ


Thank you for your concern. It is slow. And I put on 5 lbs of the 10 lbs I initially lost. But I'm starting to feel well enough that I am considering getting back to exercising. I am already going for walks, and regaining some of my strength.

Last edited by Wet; 11/06/14 10:43 PM.

Me-54 yrs; W: 50 yrs
4 kids- D: 22,20,19; S:15
"Trial" Divorce: 04/14 - 6/14
Separated: 06/2013- divorced 08/2016

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If you cannot handle 3 vets, then your wife is going to eat you up. : )



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LOL, thank you Jack. And I do appreciate the help.


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4 kids- D: 22,20,19; S:15
"Trial" Divorce: 04/14 - 6/14
Separated: 06/2013- divorced 08/2016

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Ok, those three are friends of mine...so, I get to giggle at the term..."The 3 Sharks" LOL! smile

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Those guys really got you thinking. Good for them and for you. Something I didn't get for a while is that forgiveness is for yourself. I have forgiven ex, his affair partner but mostly myself. Why me you ask? Well, I was pretty hard on me and looked at myself first when this happened. I became whiny and clingy and miserable. Probably pretty normal reactions but I needed to forgive myself for being that way.

I know that ex had a hard time letting go but was also cake eating when it came to me and her. I was led to believe there was hope because I wanted to believe it. In reality from day one he said he would leave me and the kids for her. He never waivered on that. I forgave him the pain he caused because I don't think that was his intent. He couldn't see how to bring happiness to himself so he went searching for it outside.

I forgive her because she was in a place of pain as well and her intent was not to cause me pain. Did all of this hurt? Of course it did but forgiveness for me allowed me to let go of so much of it. I don't condone what they did but I let it go.

With your wife it was not her intent to hurt any of you but to live her life on her terms, to find out what she thought she might have missed. She feels that she should have had a better life somehow.

Now when you pray for her, I suggest that you pray she finds peace for herself, that the pain in her life goes away and that she finds that she can do all that she wants in life.

What you pray for yourself and what you pray for her may not match up, because you both don't want the same things right now. That's ok. Hopefully you will come together further down the road.

I am so thankful that I have my four kids. I am thankful to my ex for that. I had fertility issues with all but the last one. I know for him, as an only child it must have been hard dealing with their different personalities and arguments at the same time. However, they have been the greatest gift. I believe now that he was in my life for that very reason.

I hope you can find peace while you are recovering and those 3 wonderful guys are assisting you. I'll check in soon.

kat


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Ok Wet,

Full disclosure: I lived most of my life in the TC...saw real Viking football OUTSIDE, the Stars played hockey where they belonged...North, etc., yahsureyoubetcha, dontchaknow?

And there is this thing called "Minnesota Nice"... I never liked it much because I prefer blunt truth, always knowing where things really stood. It sometimes felt a wee bit disingenuous, know what I mean?

I'm somehow "hearing" it a bit in your responses, maybe I'm wrong.

Anywoo...

Quote:
"Actions vs. feelings"? I really have so little contact with W that I don't have the opportunity for either.


I disagree, you don't need to have contact with W to think, feel or act forgiving. Do you need contact with God to believe, think and act as a faithful religious person?

Quote:
I am a turtle. I am slow to initiate change. So yes, I dislike change not initiated by me.


Boy, MLC sure does through a metric ton of change on your life, huh?

Do you like this about yourself? There are qualities I have that are very, very beneficial to some areas of my life, such as work, but in other areas, not so much...

Is this aspect of you, disliking change, being slow to change, something that is working for you in all areas of your life?

(you knew this was coming...) What about change do you fear?

What is "change" to you?

Could you maybe re-frame in your mind, what change is really is?

I really like kat727's thought here:

Quote:
Now when you pray for her, I suggest that you pray she finds peace for herself, that the pain in her life goes away and that she finds that she can do all that she wants in life.


That's pretty much how my prayers for stbxw have changed since I've moved on.

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In the depths of winter, I finally learned that within me there lay an invincible summer. - Albert Camus

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Originally Posted By: Mach1
Originally Posted By: Wet
[quote=Mach1] asks: “So....what exactly do you define as a happy ending ??"


Whoops, my use of that phrase was, um, shall we say a poor choice? Let’s say “ideal outcome” instead?


Originally Posted By: Mach1
Ideal for who....you ? Her ???

Hi Mach 1, yes ideal for W, for the children, and for me. But only if we do the work. As you write later on, Divorce hurts everyone involved.



Originally Posted By: Wet
[quote=Mach1] Is it merely getting the results that you want ??


Yes, I desire my marriage to be saved, but please don’t make me feel bad about this. I think marriage is an important institution, and best for everyone involved if it is worked on. As MWD has made clear in DR, divorce is likely hurtful to everyone involved. I am not trying to “win” here, I am standing for my family.


Originally Posted By: Mach1
I'm not trying to make you feel bad at all...

Why would you feel bad ?

And I can tell you that Divorce isn't "likely" hurtful to all...

Divorce IS hurtful to all involved...


So yes, I want my marriage to be saved, and I think we agree together that it is best for everyone involved.


Originally Posted By: Wet
Originally Posted By: Mach1
Maybe you should ask T-deuce which version of himself he would choose ??


Well, he stood for his marriage and family for much longer than I can imagine. He has made clear that his time was well spent, working on himself. I just wish I was talented enough to play in a band, on this, I am envious. smile
--------------



Originally Posted By: Mach1
Personally, I think that admirable part of T2, is that while he started standing, just for his Marriage and Family. What he eventually stood for, was himself. To change things within himself, that would allow a new relationship to forge for the future....his future. And whether or not his current spouse was a part of that, was yet to be determined...

And he lived on Faith, that things would work out the way they were supposed to, not just the way he hoped it would.

And THAT allowed him to make the choices for himself, and his boys down the road...

Now THAT, is inspirational...


On this we also agree. On the likely event that I go thru a divorce, I hope I go thru it in a small proportion of how well T^2 handled it.

Originally Posted By: Wet
Originally Posted By: Mach1
So, I am going to take you back to some seemingly basic questions here..

Do you Love her ???


I absolutely love my W. I am here on this board and using DB principals as best I can for the past 4 months. My withdrawing from contact with my W is the best way I can show love for both of us.



Originally Posted By: Mach1
I realize that you are fairly new at this..

IF, she is MLC, at 4 months ? You can still smell the gunpowder from the starter's pistol....

Google....Chinese Bamboo Tree...

And let me know what you come up with there....


Yes, I have been DB'ing only for 4 months. But my W is going thru MLC for 2 years now. The 'Chinese Bamboo Tree' is a great reminder of the length of the process I am up against.

Originally Posted By: Wet
Originally Posted By: Mach1
What does Love mean to YOU ( not counting your role within a relationship) ??


Love is a verb, not just a feeling in our hearts. Love involves a committed relationship. Love seeks the best for the other person’s needs and desires, while also respecting the other areas where there is not an agreement (not insisting on one’s own way). Love needs to have both people give and take for it to work in a committed relationship. Growth, making each other better people, and no matter the trial, having another person there with you are all of the benefits included with love. FWIW, this is not just marital love, I have this with a number of my male friends and family members also.


Originally Posted By: Mach1
I read that too , Wet...

I wanna know how YOU describe it....


How do I describe 'Love", yes, commitment to the relationship is key, foundational, central to everything. What does the action of love look like? It is when my thoughts focus on the other's needs and desires before my own. I need to work on this.


Originally Posted By: Wet
Originally Posted By: Mach1
What is the difference between Love and Obligation to you ??


Obligation is a duty that is owed. In love (excuse my flight of fancy here), while with love there is light and joy in the actions. When I give something to the person who is loved where it is something they would appreciate is enough to make my day, and causes me to want to do other things/actions that they would appreciate.


Originally Posted By: Mach1
So, is there Love within Obligation ??

Obligation within Love ??

WHERE is that line for you ???

You stated that you loved your spouse, yet in your daily life, was there obligation more than love ?

Love more than obligation ?


I really do not view loving my W as involving any forced obligation. I think the problem that I did have when we were together is prioritizing my handling of my work with my W's desire for more money coming in. And with our home having gone thru foreclosure, she was ultimately proven right. I was too slow in seeing the need to make changes in my work situation.



Originally Posted By: Wet
Originally Posted By: Mach1
I see your "judgement" on a couple levels here...

And that is why I keep asking you about it, and asking you to be aware of it.

Because I don't think that you see it, or maybe you do see it, and choose to ignore it (which is way worse)...


I think we are stepping into an area involving my faith. And central to my faith is Grace and Mercy, because I have been forgiven for so much, I am able to show Grace and Mercy to others. I accept that my W is in process, and on her own journey. I am giving her space not only to save me, but to let her grow into the woman that results for her choices.

I have only expressed any sort of judgmental attitude only one in the past 6 months of my M. And this is when before my surgery my W had told our d20 of her r with an OM. I expressed my “judgment” bc W’s actions were now hurting our children, I told her this was disrespectful to me, and that she was in an adulterous relationship, which should not be shared with our children. All other times I have been arm’s length friendly with her, PMA, and I’ve otherwise done no sort of pursuing.



Originally Posted By: Mach1
I know that I have pointed out judgement from you on three occasions since you have been posting (all on your part IV thread), and I can go back and show them to you if you like...

So once again, I see judgement even in what you wrote above^^

You are standing on the Faith soapbox...

You say that you were forgiven through Grace and Mercy, and you say that you have shown Grace and Mercy, yet you did not mention that you showed any forgiveness....

Have you ???

Your words, at times, say that you are not judgmental, yet at several interactions with her, when you had the chance to show something new, you chose to show guilt and judgement towards her for her choices.

What also comes with that, is showing her that you are superior to her, just because your choices are different.

Are you superior to her ??

Why do you show that to her ???

An MLCer can smell judgement from a mile away...

I would guess that it is the thing that most of them fear the most....judgement for their actions.


Ouch! Yes, guilty, guilty, guilty. But until recently, my W has shown no fear of anyone judging her actions. She freely spoke to our two oldest daughters of the men she was seeing, and freely spoke of herself as being "single". So yes, I did actions to try and change my W's attitude on this - yes even being guilty of judging her, as you have pointed out.

But my W is pulling back on this. Over the last month, she is not being so open of what is going on in her private life. Which helps me to pull back so that I no longer feel the need to deal with my W. I am in process of not trying to deal with my W at all, except for our children. My s13's grades came in today, and he did well. So I shot W an email today thanking her for helping son do better at school.



Originally Posted By: Wet
Originally Posted By: Mach1
What exactly, is YOUR prize here ???


I know the correct answer here is ME, I am the prize. But right now, my primary focus is my W, and helping her coming thru her MLC by using the most powerful weapon on Earth – prayer.


Originally Posted By: Mach1
Well, that certainly is the textbook answer.

I am not convinced that God gets too involved with affairs of the heart. I think that he has given us free will, and that he puts things, people and situations in our lives that teach us the lessons that we need, not just the ones that we want....

So, I do believe that God gives exactly the problems that we need, in order to fix ourselves....

But that's just my take on things...


Thank you, and yes I agree with you that God gives us challenges to help us work on ourselves (I'm not sure I would say "fix ourselves"). Right now, I am working on my health. It's been almost a month since the surgery on my neck. My lung infection has come back, but I was able to quickly see the doctor, and now have medication to "fix" this problem. wink So I'm hoping I can do something fun and active this weekend with s13.


Me-54 yrs; W: 50 yrs
4 kids- D: 22,20,19; S:15
"Trial" Divorce: 04/14 - 6/14
Separated: 06/2013- divorced 08/2016

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BTW, Mach1, I want you to know that your 11/19/2013 post on T^2's thread was one of the great posts I've read on the board. In case any one is interested it is here: http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2400702&page=8

You showed yourself to be open about your own issues. And I see you believe the connection of love and being vulnerable is important.

But the highlight for me was your discussion of trust and forgiveness. Thanks again for your work here.


Me-54 yrs; W: 50 yrs
4 kids- D: 22,20,19; S:15
"Trial" Divorce: 04/14 - 6/14
Separated: 06/2013- divorced 08/2016

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Love and obligation...

Interesting topics. Something that men and women often see very differently IMO.

Love, to me, a woman, is a feeling. It is something that I can experience without input from anything or anyone else. It isn't something that needs to be reciprocated in order for me to feel it, although it is nice if that happens.

Actions, are then attached to love. And that is where the confusion can arise.

Some actions, very clearly and easily show our love for someone else. Hand holding, kissing, etc...

Some actions are more difficult to recognize as loving acts, unless they fit in with our love language... gifts, holding a door open...

And other actions...while viewed as loving by one person, are often viewed as acts of obligation by the other person in a relationship...

I picked something out of one of your earlier threads...


Originally Posted By: Wet on 7/1
Over the last year of our separation (all pre-DB), I started by insisting that she kiss me on the lips, and she would only give me her cheek. I insisted because we are married for so many years, and I am the father of our four children, I should always have kissing privileges. But it was not a very good argument as I never got a kiss from her.



I can't say that I blame her...

How do you define that action...as loving? as obligatory? or as something else?


So I will ask you again a bit differently...

What does love LOOK like to you?



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Originally Posted By: Wet
Originally Posted By: Mach1
So, is there Love within Obligation ??

Obligation within Love ??

WHERE is that line for you ???

You stated that you loved your spouse, yet in your daily life, was there obligation more than love ?

Love more than obligation ?


I really do not view loving my W as involving any forced obligation. I think the problem that I did have when we were together is prioritizing my handling of my work with my W's desire for more money coming in. And with our home having gone thru foreclosure, she was ultimately proven right. I was too slow in seeing the need to make changes in my work situation.


From a male perspective, I can tell you that Love and Obligation are very blurred lines...

What is loving ??

What is obligation ??

For me, it came back to the primative ritual "male" roles in our relationships.

Typically, the male in the relationship is the provider for the home. It goes back to our caveman days, (which we STILL cater to).

As long as we go out and gather for the meal, and provide a section of our cave, and build a fire...Our little Women should be thankful for all that we provide...right ??

I mean, how dare they want more once we get home after a rough day pillaging the forest, and killing a wild animal for food...

Same aspect ties into our pre-wired antiquated roles as Men...

We go out into the world, and provide a financially sound environment for our "little Women" , and expect them to be happy with us, and for us.

We spend long hours away from them, and self-serve our own needs once we do get home. Our needs become their responsibility, and while we expect them to fill our physical needs, their emotional needs go un-fulfilled, often times for weeks on end.

So eventually, our lines of our partners needs, becomes blurred with the the reality of what WE expect, and what our partners expect.

So being totally honest here...

How often were you a Lawyer in your relationship ?

How often did you negotiate your point ?

How long had it been, since you had walked through the door, and made her emotional needs, more important the what was in your head ???




Originally Posted By: Wet
Originally Posted By: Mach1


You say that you were forgiven through Grace and Mercy, and you say that you have shown Grace and Mercy, yet you did not mention that you showed any forgiveness....

Have you ???

Your words, at times, say that you are not judgmental, yet at several interactions with her, when you had the chance to show something new, you chose to show guilt and judgement towards her for her choices.

What also comes with that, is showing her that you are superior to her, just because your choices are different.

Are you superior to her ??

Why do you show that to her ???

An MLCer can smell judgement from a mile away...

I would guess that it is the thing that most of them fear the most....judgement for their actions.


Ouch! Yes, guilty, guilty, guilty. But until recently, my W has shown no fear of anyone judging her actions. She freely spoke to our two oldest daughters of the men she was seeing, and freely spoke of herself as being "single". So yes, I did actions to try and change my W's attitude on this - yes even being guilty of judging her, as you have pointed out.

But my W is pulling back on this. Over the last month, she is not being so open of what is going on in her private life. Which helps me to pull back so that I no longer feel the need to deal with my W. I am in process of not trying to deal with my W at all, except for our children. My s13's grades came in today, and he did well. So I shot W an email today thanking her for helping son do better at school.


You left some questions on the table there ^^^ ...

I see a LOT of lawyering in your answers too...

Your spouse, does NOT define who you are at your core...

Your spouse does not define who you are as a Man...

Your spouse does NOT dictate how you portray yourself...

She isn't responsible for your actions, words, or behavior...

Nor is she responsible for your feelings and emotions...

So why do you place that on her ????



Last edited by Mach1; 11/07/14 03:21 PM. Reason: I failed the to, too, two test
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Originally Posted By: Wet
BTW, Mach1, I want you to know that your 11/19/2013 post on T^2's thread was one of the great posts I've read on the board. In case any one is interested it is here: http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2400702&page=8

You showed yourself to be open about your own issues. And I see you believe the connection of love and being vulnerable is important.

But the highlight for me was your discussion of trust and forgiveness. Thanks again for your work here.


Thank you...and you are welcome....

More than that though...

Thank me by doing the work, and paying it forward to those who WILL follow you....

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Hi cat04, thank you for your comments. Your post was the hardest to deal with, and so I want to respond to it first. Your insight on women's view of love as a feeling is helpful to me.

Let's start by dealing with my pre-DB insistence that my W kiss me. Yes, I viewed kissing as an obligatory action owed to me by my W. Seeing it as clearly as you painted it here shows to me that I was clearly wrong, and W choosing to not kiss me was justified. DB has helped me to see these sort of actions in a clearer light.

Actions that I viewed as obligations for me during our marriage included fidelity, being the primary bread-winner, commitment, my protecting W unfortunately I focused on protecting W from stressful things (rather than protecting her physically and providing a roof over our heads). On the topic of my protecting the family physically, my W let me know that my failure to check out sounds in the house when she asked in the middle of the night was unacceptable to her. And she is right, and I have learned from this.

What does love look like to me? There is some overlap with obligation here. Fidelity and commitment to the relationship done because I want to (out of 'love'), is the purest form of these actions. Yes, respect also - which includes door opening, giving my W my arm esp during the wet/icy conditions of our state. Respect also includes valuing my W's opinion and input on decisions we had to make, is also important.

The physical relationship is also very important. My W was very good about meeting my physical needs of hugging, kissing, and more. I was good in meeting her physical needs, and also providing her with nightly back rubs/massages.

I think friendship is also very important in what 'love' looks like to me. W and I always talked, and not just about the kids. We had a strong bond of friendship where I wanted to talk to her when I was at the office, and make her laugh when she was down.

The spiritual connection is a final thing that I think is important as part of 'love'. We found a great church 17 years ago that we both loved, and which did a good job in teaching us and our children. W and I would often be co-leaders of Alpha groups (a course which was an introduction to Christianity and the Holy Spirit) at our church. I was gifted in active listening, and W was gifted with her compassionate heart. We would share the group leading for the night based upon the topic, and this worked great. We saw many people be blessed from the work we did together.

I hope I am providing a more helpful response to you of your question.


Me-54 yrs; W: 50 yrs
4 kids- D: 22,20,19; S:15
"Trial" Divorce: 04/14 - 6/14
Separated: 06/2013- divorced 08/2016

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Wet,

What is your primary love language? Mine was physical touch, and when w stopped the hugs and kisses before work and such, it was devastating to me.

And differences in how women and men view things?? Yup... Another poster (Kimmerz) recommended a book to me way back early in my sitch that was very enlightening about those differences, so much so that I am trying to get my oldest (21) to read it. It's "What Women Want Men to Know" by Barbara De Angelis. I highly recommend it to you.


In the depths of winter, I finally learned that within me there lay an invincible summer. - Albert Camus

Uncertainty is the very condition which impels people to unfold their powers.-Eric Fromm

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Most Fridays, I like to post something funny. So the way the veterans have tried to help me this past week, brought to mind the old skit "Boot to the Head".

Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LMIfAmQYig8

I am Ed Gruebberman! It is 6 minutes+ long, but does have some application to DB.


Me-54 yrs; W: 50 yrs
4 kids- D: 22,20,19; S:15
"Trial" Divorce: 04/14 - 6/14
Separated: 06/2013- divorced 08/2016

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Ha! My son has been performing that skit for years!



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Quick journaling - I saw MiL and FiL today. We are together on the Board of Directors for a charity helping one of the poorest sections of Mazatlan, and I wanted to give them some copies of paperwork I filed. Although we chatted a bit, W was not even mentioned.

Picked up s13 at W's place and she asked for my help in cleaning up her computer. I agreed and it was filled with viruses. Ran a virus protection program and it removed some of them, but not all.

W was looking tired but dressed to kill. She wore a tight top, push up bra, spandex pants and stiletto heeled boots. She saw a woman friend from our old neighborhood for lunch, who is dealing with breast cancer, and had already started her treatments. Very sad.

The whole time I am there, W is arguing with s13. Silly stuff, like son not putting the bowls in the dishwasher the right way. I staid out of it, except once when s13 was rude, I told him to be respectful to his Mom.

Right before we left, I decided to ask W for a hug. It was a long, nice hug. And I am 7+ inches taller than W, so I wrapped her up well. Then she asked me to get s13 out of there, which I did. I've decided to give myself a permanent exemption from db'ing when W wears that outfit.


Me-54 yrs; W: 50 yrs
4 kids- D: 22,20,19; S:15
"Trial" Divorce: 04/14 - 6/14
Separated: 06/2013- divorced 08/2016

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Kat, you know I think that you are the best. Kat said "Now when you pray for her, I suggest that you pray she finds peace for herself, that the pain in her life goes away and that she finds that she can do all that she wants in life."

I think this is great advice. My W right now is so frantic, does not get to sleep until 3 am, and I thought this might cause her to miss the peace and calm she had with me. But your advice W be blessed with peace is wise advice. For her to just have time to herself to think can only help.

The forgiveness thing. That's hard. And not bc she is running around on me. This part I really don't care about. Anyway, I understand my need to eventually forgive. But not today.


Me-54 yrs; W: 50 yrs
4 kids- D: 22,20,19; S:15
"Trial" Divorce: 04/14 - 6/14
Separated: 06/2013- divorced 08/2016

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Originally Posted By: TSquared2
Ok Wet,

Full disclosure: I lived most of my life in the TC...saw real Viking football OUTSIDE, the Stars played hockey where they belonged...North, etc., yahsureyoubetcha, dontchaknow?


Ah well, your appreciation of hockey, especially Minnesota North Star's hockey shows you are a man of keen intellect. The last year of the North Stars I had partial season tickets 10 rows up from the ice between the red and blue lines. So awesome.

While we were dating, I took W to a Stanley Cup game against the Mario Lemieux Penguins. And during the warm-ups, while my attention was watching the Stars, one of the Penguins flipped a puck up into the crowd. It hit W on the bridge of her nose. Does it reflect poorly on me that all I could think to ask her was "did you catch the puck?" (she did not. frown )

Originally Posted By: TSquared2
And there is this thing called "Minnesota Nice"... I never liked it much because I prefer blunt truth, always knowing where things really stood. It sometimes felt a wee bit disingenuous, know what I mean?

I'm somehow "hearing" it a bit in your responses, maybe I'm wrong.


I understand that things like board postings and emails are difficult to interpret without seeing the author. So I purposely try and use polite, appreciative writing. I do not intend to come off as disingenuous.


Originally Posted By: TSquared2
Anywoo...

Quote:
"Actions vs. feelings"? I really have so little contact with W that I don't have the opportunity for either.


I disagree, you don't need to have contact with W to think, feel or act forgiving. Do you need contact with God to believe, think and act as a faithful religious person?

[quote]I am a turtle. I am slow to initiate change. So yes, I dislike change not initiated by me.


Originally Posted By: TSquared2
Boy, MLC sure does through a metric ton of change on your life, huh?

Do you like this about yourself? There are qualities I have that are very, very beneficial to some areas of my life, such as work, but in other areas, not so much...


I do like this resistance to change trait about myself, bc it separates me from most other people, who are caught up in the race. My patience and willingness to wait before making a decision, plays well with my use of DB though. And yes, W's MLC caused me to question everything in my life, including my faith. But that's a story for another day.

Originally Posted By: TSquared2
Is this aspect of you, disliking change, being slow to change, something that is working for you in all areas of your life?

(you knew this was coming...) What about change do you fear?

What is "change" to you?

Could you maybe re-frame in your mind, what change is really is?


Asking about 'change', and why I dislike it and maybe even 'fear' it, again raises the issue of faith for me. I think God puts people in the place where we are for a reason. And until I see what God is doing, I'm going to stay where I am. So I see that most desire for change I think is motivated by fear, instead of faith, and should therefore be avoided.

My W is a good woman. But she did not fully understand my desire to wait things out to see where God wanted me to go, or what He wanted me to do. I understand that my W is more rational than me on this.

So now looking back at the foreclosure of our family home, I view it as a blessing, though it broke our family apart. Bc W had so many cats, the home was filthy and unhealthy. It hurt my health, and it hurt our d17's health. And by losing our home, not only did it get us out of that mess, it eventually forced W to end her job as a cat breeder, which again I think is a good thing.

So where was I going with this? Oh yes, I think that change can be viewed as being completely different with the benefit of time. I'm hoping my W's leaving me will be viewed differently with the benefit of time.

BTW, T^2 someday soon, I am going to ask you some questions about your choices. I went thru a good portion of your 19 threads, and it was a really compelling story. When you wrote that you decided to separate on March 19th, I wept. Thanks for sharing it with us.


Me-54 yrs; W: 50 yrs
4 kids- D: 22,20,19; S:15
"Trial" Divorce: 04/14 - 6/14
Separated: 06/2013- divorced 08/2016

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Quote:
So I see that most desire for change I think is motivated by fear, instead of faith, and should therefore be avoided.

Interesting, I could argue that resistance to change is motivated by fear. That we humans prefer consistency, security in the known. That's why strangers are viewed dubiously until proven,for example.

For myself, being honest, I was very habituated and therefore very comfy with my w, the usual course of our R. I am a man of habit, whether good habits or bad, I am consistent. smile

What I see now, about that comfort, is that it kept both of us stuck. We trained each other in how to respond and react to keep peace, avoid conflict...MN Nice in overdrive I guess.

Until summer 2013, I feared change, I feared what I am having to do right now with the divorce, the finances, etc. I wanted my old life, my "real" W back, go back to what was comfy, known, EASY.

So maybe our mlc-ers changed out of fear, but it is likely that we didn't/don't change out of fear as well. KWIM?

And ask away about my choices, I'm a pretty open book.

Is it possible that this was put before you to open you up to change, that this is Him showing you something He wants you to learn?






Last edited by TSquared2; 11/08/14 03:52 AM.

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Originally Posted By: Mach1

So being totally honest here...

How often were you a Lawyer in your relationship ? How often did you negotiate your point ?

Never. We rarely argued. W would let me know that I needed to make more money, but I wouldn't try and argue about it. Instead, I was guilty of defensiveness, and trying to over explain the reason that money would come in shortly, that work was in the pipeline, etc.



Originally Posted By: Mach1
How long had it been, since you had walked through the door, and made her emotional needs, more important the what was in your head ???

So, this one was not much of an issue. I focused my life around making W happy. My problem was that I was not working full-time hours, and so the thing my W wanted the most from me was working more, harder, and trying to bring in more business. But I was also clingy and when my health issues started 9 years ago, and also guilty of not going out with my W out just the two of us. And I believe Quality Time was my W's primary love language.

Originally Posted By: Mach1
You left some questions on the table there ^^^ ...

I see a LOT of lawyering in your answers too...

Your spouse, does NOT define who you are at your core...

Your spouse does not define who you are as a Man...

Your spouse does NOT dictate how you portray yourself...

She isn't responsible for your actions, words, or behavior...

Nor is she responsible for your feelings and emotions...

So why do you place that on her ????


I see your point, this is good. That my being superior and judgmental toward W only comes from me, and should not be based on what W is doing. I can accept that. The only place I see where the lines get blurred is where W is parading her behavior in front of our kids. I don't see this as currently being a problem, and so I will try and keep the focus on me and my actions, instead of on my W.


Me-54 yrs; W: 50 yrs
4 kids- D: 22,20,19; S:15
"Trial" Divorce: 04/14 - 6/14
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Originally Posted By: TSquared2
Wet,

What is your primary love language? Mine was physical touch, and when w stopped the hugs and kisses before work and such, it was devastating to me.


Yes, I believe Physical Touch is my primary love language too. The funny thing in my R, was that W never cut off the physical relationship, even when she made the decision to leave and we were together for another two months. So I really was blind-sided when W finally told me her decision two weeks before she moved out. And even with that, we ML the night before she left. Weird?

Originally Posted By: TSquared2
And differences in how women and men view things?? Yup... Another poster (Kimmerz) recommended a book to me way back early in my sitch that was very enlightening about those differences, so much so that I am trying to get my oldest (21) to read it. It's "What Women Want Men to Know" by Barbara De Angelis. I highly recommend it to you.


Thank you for the book recommendation.


Me-54 yrs; W: 50 yrs
4 kids- D: 22,20,19; S:15
"Trial" Divorce: 04/14 - 6/14
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Journaling. W and I had the relationship talk tonight. I brought s13 back to W's place, and I had agreed to do further work on W's computer to remove viruses. She needs computer to do editing for her photo business. I decided I was going to be ol' Mr. Nice Wet, and see what happens. She texted me saying her body really hurt (fibromyalgia) and she was not moving much. So my plan going in was to offer her a back massage if I saw the opportunity.

So we got to W's place, I said hi, she was talking to s13, so I decided to go work on the computer. W brought me a beer. I previously emailed myself a virus removal program. But her computer would not even allow access to IE. So I removed the first layer of viruses, and then installed the other program. Success!. While the over 100 add'l viruses were removed, W was sitting next to me, having a friendly convo, and I offered to give her a back massage. She gratefully agreed.

We went to her bed, I asked to remove her top with a chuckle, and she said I've seen her back enough times, she guessed it wouldn't hurt. She permitted me to remove her bra, I found some lotion, and gave her a 15 minute massage. The convo was lite though.

So I went back to the computer, and all the viruses were removed. Free access to the internet. I set up her homepage. All was good. I told her mission accomplished, and got up to leave, as I restarted her computer. She said wait, and asked me to sit down on the couch with her.

She started by asking how I was, and I said I was really good. And she said, it must be good not having a resentful W around, and I said "you never made me feel that you felt that way." R. talk was coming next but we hadn't talked for almost 5 months, so I agreed. W said she wanted the divorce papers filed, but she couldn't afford to hire an attorney. I had given her a stipulated divorce agreement back in March. She said she would sign that if these changes were made:

- $100k from my share of my parent's estate. She reasons that her parents gave us tens of thousands of dollars, incl. $30k for a remodeled kitchen, and it was all lost when house was foreclosed. Her parents once had several million dollars, but it is almost gone. Long story, but she is right. Or,

- alimony of 10% of my income. I told her that I would not do this, as my current income was too low right now. She gave me a 3rd option, but I can't remember this right now.

Then she said she likes it better when we are acting like friends, like tonight. She didn't like it when we weren't friendly and brought up the recent surgery. I said that I had just been given news that I had a life-threatening condition, and my best friend was not there to be with me to go thru this.

She then brought up that that the OM was not happy when he heard W was still married. And that he insisted that they not have sex. But it is not an exclusive relationship, so she is still dating other guys. She thought I would feel good about this, but I didn't.

So I brought up that how can I be her friend, you would never respect me if I was her friend while she is dating other men. You don't do this while we are still married. She said it is just a piece of paper, and yes, she felt like we were already divorced.

Truth dart time, I brought up the time when we almost broke up before we were married. W told me that she had sex with a married man, and I asked her why she thought that was ok, and W's response almost made me run for the hills - "he made the vow, not me". So I brought this story up to W, and said how did you get from that women to here? If you want to date men after we're divorced, that's fine. But not while we're married.

Then W brought up that she gave up early on in our marriage. She said bc I was so depressed, and wouldn't do anything about it. I responded but that's fixable. [I was depressed during the last 6 months of our m., but W rarely mentioned this as an issue. I think this is W re-writing history, but I will keep it in mind.]

So we hugged each other and gave each other a peck on our cheeks. My take-away, I already knew that if I modified the divorce agreement that she would sign it. I am glad that W is not currently sexual. But the dating other guys remains difficult. There just is no progress, and it's getting old. Let's see how I feel about this tomorrow.


Me-54 yrs; W: 50 yrs
4 kids- D: 22,20,19; S:15
"Trial" Divorce: 04/14 - 6/14
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Ive been trying to think of a nice way to put this but haven't been able to find the words. You said she isn't exclusive,she is dating other guys. She very well could be sleeping with all of them. This one guy stands out to her because he won't sleep with her because she is married.

I remember I used to hold on to every kind or easy moment,giving myself false hope. I think you need to figure out if this is what you you want to keep going through. Your wife comes across as a gold digger. She only wants money out of you. Who is to say your parents will have that kind of money to give later? Why does she think after what she has put you through she should get anything further down the road? Yes her parents gave and she was just as responsible for losing the house as you were. Yes you were trying to keep reality from here but any adult with common sense would have wanted to know what was going on and helped out. You both lost the money, not just you.

Food for thought. Kat


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Thanks Kat.


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I think tomorrow won't be enough time Wet. I suggest giving it a little more time than that. You still have expectations of her that she won't live up to. Something there needs to change, yeah?

And I do agree with Kat. Wholeheartedly.

AJ


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Originally Posted By: TSquared2
Quote:
So I see that most desire for change I think is motivated by fear, instead of faith, and should therefore be avoided.

Interesting, I could argue that resistance to change is motivated by fear. That we humans prefer consistency, security in the known. That's why strangers are viewed dubiously until proven,for example.


Thanks everyone for making me think. Today, I am thinking I want to move on, and get the divorce finalized.

T^2, your comment that my resisting change is motivated out of fear is a good point. And who am I to keep my W in a marriage that she does not want to be in? I'll give this a few days, but maybe it is time for change in my life. It "feels" good to start making this decision.


Me-54 yrs; W: 50 yrs
4 kids- D: 22,20,19; S:15
"Trial" Divorce: 04/14 - 6/14
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Take your time wet...no rush.

As much as I wanted to save my M, I HAD to be sure that I did all I could, for my own peace, and for my kids.

Think it all the way through, multiple times, for your own peace with whatever decision you make. But DO take your time, please.

smile


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Originally Posted By: Wet
Yes, I believe Physical Touch is my primary love language too. The funny thing in my R, was that W never cut off the physical relationship, even when she made the decision to leave and we were together for another two months.


Ahhh.....

So she filled your Love Language....

Let me ask you this...



Which of the love languages do you use, to give love ????

How did she give love ??

How did she receive love ??





Originally Posted By: Wet
So I really was blind-sided when W finally told me her decision two weeks before she moved out. And even with that, we ML the night before she left. Weird?


Weird ???

No, not at all....

Most MLCers feel that they have tried everything to find that internal void in their life.

It is fairly common to hear that they give themselves sexually, or vocalize and proclaim their never-ending love, hours before the bomb....

Just another cog on the wheel ....

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Originally Posted By: Wet
Originally Posted By: Mach1

So being totally honest here...

How often were you a Lawyer in your relationship ? How often did you negotiate your point ?

Never. We rarely argued. W would let me know that I needed to make more money, but I wouldn't try and argue about it. Instead, I was guilty of defensiveness, and trying to over explain the reason that money would come in shortly, that work was in the pipeline, etc.


Isn't that Lawyering ??

Defending you position ???

IF I am way off, please tell me.....

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Originally Posted By: Mach1
Ahhh.....

So she filled your Love Language....

Let me ask you this...


Which of the love languages do you use, to give love ????


My primary LL that I gave to W were Affection and Acts of Service.

On the Affection, I previously explained that because of W's fibromyalgia her back at the end of the day she was always in pain. So at the end of the day, we were in bed together, and I gave her a massage or back rub. When W woke up in the morning, my computer area was set in the living room so I could see as she came down the stairs, and I greeted her just about every morning with "Good morning beautiful!" (words of affirmation, and every email before DB I started by calling her "M'love") and I often would also come and give her a hug.

We frequently hugged, held hands, and gave each other little kisses thru the day. When she passed me in the kitchen, I would give a little pat on her bottom, and she would give a little shake of her booty.

My other primary LL is 'Acts of Service'. I always let my W sleep in, and so if kids needed a drive to school, or any other morning activity I was the primary caretaker for this. After my W had our 3rd child, and we had 3 young kids/babies, I made sure her car had a remote starter to warm up the car during the cold Minnesota days. I always did anything my W asked for help with.

My problem again is that I failed to give W the two things which she wanted most, more money coming in, and Quality Time out with just the two of us.

Originally Posted By: Mach1
How did she give love ??


My W gave love by showing her happiness, her physical affection, by giving time to talk with me and listen to my day. She also was very thoughtful. She would buy me things like a Zune (ok, no jokes), which let me transfer my many cd's to the Zune, which was such a fun project for many months. Or a LP player that had a cd converter to it, which she knew that I would love.

Originally Posted By: Mach1
How did she receive love ??


I'm not sure what you mean here. But my W was appreciative whenever I did anything thoughtful for her. She would frequently come up and give me a big hug or a kiss, when I did something for her.

When W left me, she said that the hardest part was that I was the most devoted and adoring husband around - I am sure there are a number of husbands on this board who can say the same thing.


Me-54 yrs; W: 50 yrs
4 kids- D: 22,20,19; S:15
"Trial" Divorce: 04/14 - 6/14
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OK, here is where I am today:

- I'm messed up;
- W is messed up;
- OM is messed up.

So I've made my first priority to stop being judgmental towards my W, and stop caring about what she is doing. I went to Divorce Care Tuesday night and my Men's Group this morning, and that was my prayer request for me. And if I am having judgmental thoughts about my W (my recent one is my being upset when W said "it's just a piece of paper"), then I turn it around and ask God to bless my W because she is the Mother of our 4 children. Or bc she was instrumental in my faith story, etc.)

So I've decided to not go forward with finishing up our divorce. I can do this, I can stand for our marriage - today, I can do this.

I need to get the focus back on me. I have to stop the pity party bc I'm in a neck brace and in pain. I have to start doing more fun things that I enjoy, incl. spending time with my kids, my friends, and things that I enjoy. Last night I took d17 (who recently spent 3 months in Argentina) to a Brazilian restaurant and a movie. It turns out Brazilian cuisine is not at all close to Argentian, but we had fun anyways. GAL, GAL, GAL! Those are my marching orders, for today (at least).


Me-54 yrs; W: 50 yrs
4 kids- D: 22,20,19; S:15
"Trial" Divorce: 04/14 - 6/14
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<clap>

Well done.

Start doing those things.

Today is not the day you quit, tomorrow might be different but not today. You can make it through today.

Repeat that every morning.



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Kudos Wet. Keep on GALing and taking care of you and kiddos!


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Originally Posted By: Wet
then I turn it around and ask God to bless my W because she is the Mother of our 4 children. Or bc she was instrumental in my faith story, etc.)


Why not end this sentence with just asking to bless your W? Why qualify it with the rest?

Originally Posted By: wet
So I've decided to not go forward with finishing up our divorce. I can do this, I can stand for our marriage - today, I can do this.


Yes you can. It will help you if you start to understand why. I see my friends here have been posting to you about love...

I would venture to guess this may be testing every limit you know about the word.

And if you have not been humbled by this yet then I hope that happens soon for you.

You are here because your W is in crisis. That may be hard to remember at times...

What you do about it is YOUR choice. To choose to be a victim or to move forward on a path of Your own choosing.

Some words to think about:

How would you want to be loved when you are in a crisis?

When you are so scared you reject your family and your vows.?

When you are so confused you behave in ways that are hurtful to yourself and others you love?

When your mind is full of chaotic thoughts?

When does your W most need you to love her?

When she is calm and peaceful? Settled and sure?

That is the easy part....

So the question...

How would you want to be loved?

What does love mean for you?


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Ah True. Nice to see you posting...

Quote:
- I'm messed up;
- W is messed up;
- OM is messed up.
So you're saying we're all broken and fall short? We're..em, equals in brokenness?

Seems you're starting to see a bigger picture, Wet. I agree, now is not the time for you to quit.

I would really like to see an answer to True's questions. I think you do too.

Argentinian and Brazilian are not the same? LOL. Glad you had a good time with your daughter. Priceless times in their lives...

AJ
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Originally Posted By: wet
So I've decided to not go forward with finishing up our divorce. I can do this, I can stand for our marriage - today, I can do this.


Originally Posted By: Truegritter
Yes you can. It will help you if you start to understand why. I see my friends here have been posting to you about love...

I would venture to guess this may be testing every limit you know about the word.

And if you have not been humbled by this yet then I hope that happens soon for you.

You are here because your W is in crisis. That may be hard to remember at times...

What you do about it is YOUR choice. To choose to be a victim or to move forward on a path of Your own choosing.

Some words to think about:

How would you want to be loved when you are in a crisis?

When you are so scared you reject your family and your vows.?

When you are so confused you behave in ways that are hurtful to yourself and others you love?

When your mind is full of chaotic thoughts?

When does your W most need you to love her?

When she is calm and peaceful? Settled and sure?

That is the easy part....

So the question...

How would you want to be loved?

What does love mean for you?


First, thank you so much Jack, whytry, Truegritter, and AJ, your encouragement and support is a help to me.

I thought Truegritter's questions were rhetorical. But because AJ thinks I should actually answer them, I will.

How would I want to be loved, if I was in crisis, scared, if I was confused, and if life was chaotic? I would want to be loved unconditionally, without judgment, and with a self-giving, self-sacrificial love.

Yes, my W needs me to love her now more than ever. And you have shown me that I should be giving my W the same kind of love that I would want if my life was turned upside down ("unconditionally, without judgment, and with a self-giving, self-sacrificial love").

So that is what love means to me. Thanks for helping me to begin opening my eyes.

Last edited by Wet; 11/14/14 03:02 AM.

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Is anyone else watching Showtime's series "The Affair"? How does it make you feel?


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Quote:
Is anyone else watching Showtime's series "The Affair"? How does it make you feel?


Good lord no... I doubt I'll be able to watch anything regarding infidelity for a long time. sick

Good job on re-focusing, and opening up...

Get going on the GAL!!

You got this! smile

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OK, I guess I'm the only one watching Showtime's "The Affair". But they do a good job showing the brokenness of everyone involved. Allison is married, but they lost their son, and the husband is fighting to save his family ranch, trapped into fighting for the town's old ways of doing things.

The guy Noah is a teacher/author is also married. He is fighting with his FiL who provides money for a private school for their kids, but the kids are still messed up. Showtime does a good job showing the influence of families and friends, on the two main characters.

Yes, I was hesitant to watch this show thinking I was only subjecting myself to self-inflicted pain. But it is much more interesting because of all the details they add with the secondary characters. The man is unappreciated by his W, but he doesn't put any effort into the marriage. And the woman is in a loveless marriage, and she is in such pain. And the drama of the involvement of the police, hints at something more going on. I think it is worth watching, despite the painful topic of the main characters' Affair being the central premise of the show.


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I don't watch The Affair, but then I also don't give myself papercuts and pour lemon juice on them either. I try not to swallow broken glass as well.



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Originally Posted By: Jack_Three_Beans
I don't watch The Affair, but then I also don't give myself papercuts and pour lemon juice on them either. I try not to swallow broken glass as well.


Ok, ok, comedians, I will leave the subject of a show I was enjoying that I thought others may have strong feelings about.

Journaling - I saw my M and D for lunch today, and I got into a really cool convo with my Mom. My oldest brother died of cancer 28 years ago, and it hit my parents very hard (I was out of town at this time, and so it had a lesser impact on me). He was married shortly after finding out he had cancer. He went thru several years of battling the cancer, he was strong and a fighter. But when the cancer got into my brother's brain, he lost the essence of who we was.

But what hurt my siblings and my parents so hard was that my brother's W was caught with another man shortly after the brain cancer was found. My Mom asked her years later why she just didn't wait until after my brother died to start up with another relationship? And my brother's W said that she was trapped and she felt like it would never end.

So that was the question I always kicked around in my brain was why my W didn't just wait until after the divorce to date other men. My Mom's explanation was helpful for me in seeing it a different way. It was also a nice bonding moment with my Mom, as we also spoke about forgiveness thru situations like this.


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What were your thoughts on forgiveness, Wet?

People do what people do. I.e. they do the best they can with the tools they have at the time they have to. Does that make them broken? Perhaps. Maybe it just makes them human. Who can judge?

What often sets MLC aside is the idea that they "quickly" do things radically different then they did before. Like they are searching for a different way and have opposite values to what they previously professed. Like it's a life or death pursuit. Like they had been pretending before and now it's the real them without the "mask". For example, they might have been in a self-reported fulfilling relationship and family for 20+ years and suddenly they feel they are not happy. They go on to feel they were never happy and create a "crisis" of some sort possibly as a way to stop the free-fall. They do what they do with the tools they have at the time they have them.

Is it really "quickly"? Some say yes, others no. Experience varies. But the cause is almost always internal to the person. The trigger might be something external. The crisis seems to be similar to many likely because there are just so many ways you can interact with others.

Becoming human is a tough journey. Creating a crisis is optional of course, but it seems to go hand in hand. So does lying, cheating, etc. The underlying motivation is never clear... until/if it is.

Why do people do what they do? Why do they lie, cheat, steal, hurt others intentionally? <shrug> Reasons vary.

AJ


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Hi AJ, when I talked with my Mom about forgiveness, she said that she was able to set aside the pain from my brother's W leaving his side during the brain cancer (which took his life) to be with another OM. My Mom ended up having a friendly r with her, and the result was that my parents have a nice r with their grandchild from my brother. So she encouraged forgiveness if for nothing more than the results that come from it.

I just got a call from W. D18 (living in another state, going to college), has over $600 in overdrafts on her account - W thought they set up the account with overdraft protection, but no. W wants me to go into the bank and play harda$$ lawyer, and I'm not sure this is my battle. I also know she cannot register for next semester b/c of outstanding school debts. I'm thinking it is time to tell d18 to just come home. I need to think about this one.


Me-54 yrs; W: 50 yrs
4 kids- D: 22,20,19; S:15
"Trial" Divorce: 04/14 - 6/14
Separated: 06/2013- divorced 08/2016

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I think it is time to let your daughter work with the school and the bank to get her affairs in order. Let her decide if she comes home or not. She will learn so much from this. You could offer to go with her or help her work out her plan. She overdrafted her account, no one else. Her mess to clean up.

Kat


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I agree with Kat, make this a teaching / learning moment for your daughter. Even if she falls flat on her face she will learn how to pick herself up and keep moving. if you make the decision for her then she won't learn. Give her the tools to succeed. Offer her guidance when asked and make sure she knows you will be there for her without bailing her out.


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Originally Posted By: Wet
I thought Truegritter's questions were rhetorical. But because AJ thinks I should actually answer them, I will.


Why don't maybe, you answer them for yourself....

Cause that is who you wanna be, and you want to understand yourself just a little better...

Wet, maybe you should read Grit's threads, and see WHY he asks those questions.....

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Originally Posted By: Mach1
Why don't maybe, you answer them for yourself....

Cause that is who you wanna be, and you want to understand yourself just a little better...

Wet, maybe you should read Grit's threads, and see WHY he asks those questions.....


Mach, Mach, Mach, is your day not complete unless you get to take a shot at poor 'ol Wet? wink I am new to this, I haven't been around the block on dealing with a WAW, and so I listen to suggestions, I'm teachable. So yes, I listen to people on the board that I respect (errr, like YOU), in hopes that I will learn something, that it will help ME. And surprise, surprise, just as you suggested, answering Truegritter's questions helped. Me.

So I watched 'Scott Pilgrim vs. the World' tonight. I love this movie. But the end is the best. Here Scott is battling the “evil 7 exes” of Ramona. He does it to win her, to free her from her past. But against the 7th evil ex, Scott learns that after dying (don't worry, he has a "1-up"), that he fights these evil guys for himself, not to "fix" or rescue Ramona. With this discovery he earns the Sword of Self Respect and with this insight, he wins the battle. For himself. Hilarious movie!


Me-54 yrs; W: 50 yrs
4 kids- D: 22,20,19; S:15
"Trial" Divorce: 04/14 - 6/14
Separated: 06/2013- divorced 08/2016

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It's the "why " of the questions that you need to look at, not the answers. Right now. That'll come later, when the "why" is understood.


In the depths of winter, I finally learned that within me there lay an invincible summer. - Albert Camus

Uncertainty is the very condition which impels people to unfold their powers.-Eric Fromm

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Originally Posted By: Wet
Mach, Mach, Mach, is your day not complete unless you get to take a shot at poor 'ol Wet? wink I am new to this, I haven't been around the block on dealing with a WAW, and so I listen to suggestions, I'm teachable. So yes, I listen to people on the board that I respect (errr, like YOU), in hopes that I will learn something, that it will help ME. And surprise, surprise, just as you suggested, answering Truegritter's questions helped. Me.


Hey Wet..

I took your suggestion and stepped back for a day...

And I gotta say, sadly for your pity party, My day was still complete without busting you on the head....

Did you go back and read his threads ???

Maybe it will help you get from this...

Wet's answer
I thought Truegritter's questions were rhetorical. But because AJ thinks I should actually answer them, I will.

How would I want to be loved, if I was in crisis, scared, if I was confused, and if life was chaotic? I would want to be loved unconditionally, without judgment, and with a self-giving, self-sacrificial love.

Yes, my W needs me to love her now more than ever. And you have shown me that I should be giving my W the same kind of love that I would want if my life was turned upside down ("unconditionally, without judgment, and with a self-giving, self-sacrificial love").





Grit's answer

How do we need to be loved?

At this point in your journey it is still about how you need to be treated (loved) and yourself worth and respect is still dependent on your spouse and others.

We may decide to leave at this point because of the long suffering we have endured at the hands of our spouse and predicament. If we leave now we confirm our ignorance of what love means and confirm that to our spouse that your love was not real but dependent and conditional.

You confirm again all the self loathing your spouse feels inside because the person that is supposed to love them hasn’t and won’t and never will.

We then begin to understand…

We yearn for a deeper answer. We crave knowledge that has so far been unattainable.

We want to know the mystery of love. The mystery of our marriage. To know ourselves.

To remove self doubt. To know ourselves. To know who we are at our core.

We start to focus on ourselves. To look inside and know who we are.

Find things we don’t like. Endeavor to change them. To learn what and who we aspire to be.

Not as someone our spouse wants us to be. We tried that already.
Who we really are.

When you do that you begin to understand why you are standing for your spouse and your marriage.

And you start to learn what real love is.

Unconditional love is caring about the happiness of another without any thought for what we might get for ourselves. It’s also when other people care about our happiness unconditionally.

And what it is not

It is not what we have lived in our life and our marriage up to now. It is not controlling. It does not desire and force. It does not depend on action or inaction from our spouse.

And so as we let this soak and it takes hold we discover an amazing thing and it gives life to us and breaths hope into our spirits and that is

Unconditional love is when we love despite the foolish choices of our spouse, when they fail to do what we desire, regardless of any choice they make. This love alone has the power to heal all wounds, deliver self respect and remove all doubt for you and your spouse. It allows love and healing to flourish.

This is how we need to be loved. And this is the paradox.

That we only get this when we give it.

And now is the opportunity.

There is no GREATER opportunity you will ever have in your life then NOW to express this kind of love.

To do this takes greater courage than most people will ever understand and will ever know.

And you have received this wonderful gift only by going through the experience. By the trial.

By the tragedy.

What greater thing could you aspire to do.

EVER.





Originally Posted By: Wet

So I watched 'Scott Pilgrim vs. the World' tonight. I love this movie. But the end is the best. Here Scott is battling the “evil 7 exes” of Ramona. He does it to win her, to free her from her past. But against the 7th evil ex, Scott learns that after dying (don't worry, he has a "1-up"), that he fights these evil guys for himself, not to "fix" or rescue Ramona. With this discovery he earns the Sword of Self Respect and with this insight, he wins the battle. For himself. Hilarious movie!


One of my Son's favorite movies...seen it many times....

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Wet i used to feel the same when Mach would post to me..I was like not again..He is relentless. Buy i love the guy. You are in good hands with True and Match


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Originally Posted By: Rick1963
Wet i used to feel the same when Mach would post to me..I was like not again..He is relentless. Buy i love the guy. You are in good hands with True and Match


Hi Rick, yes I know Mach and T^2 (and all of the veterans) are doing good work when they help us.

First thing this morning, W texts me "Can you send d18 (who is in another state) $100?" There was no 'hi' or explanation, just a short text, so W is worried.

I reply in my typical smarta$$ fashion: "Good morning. smile Yes, I will send her $100. What's going on?"

Then W texts back explaining that W has only $20, and d18 has no money for food. D18 started a job 2 weeks ago, but I don't mind. I let W know I will put it in the mail today. W responds with a thank you and 5 exclamation points.

My observation, W now clearly understands I am not friendly to her b/c she continues to date while we are married. But for some reason she thinks I will not help our children when they need it. My children are everything to me, and so I don't know why W has this impression of me. I am not being included in convos of what is going on with d18's financial stress, and I just wish I be included.


Me-54 yrs; W: 50 yrs
4 kids- D: 22,20,19; S:15
"Trial" Divorce: 04/14 - 6/14
Separated: 06/2013- divorced 08/2016

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Quote:
My observation, W now clearly understands I am not friendly to her b/c she continues to date while we are married. But for some reason she thinks I will not help our children when they need it. My children are everything to me, and so I don't know why W has this impression of me. I am not being included in convos of what is going on with d18's financial stress, and I just wish I be included.


Lotsa mind reading there...

But they do get ideas like that in their head until they start to hit bottom. My stbxw thought I would tear up a name sign out youngest made for her when she left the note ending our M, so she made sure to take it...I've not done anything like that to other people's stuff, maybe my own stuff a few times, but not things the kids made, etc. Who knows...

So what can you do to be more involved in what's going on with D18? Do you need to have W involved?

Maybe call D18 yourself?

So what are your thoughts on TG's answer?




Last edited by TSquared2; 11/19/14 04:32 PM.

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Originally Posted By: TSquared2
Lotsa mind reading there...

But they do get ideas like that in their head until they start to hit bottom...

So what can you do to be more involved in what's going on with D18? Do you need to have W involved?

Maybe call D18 yourself?

So what are your thoughts on TG's answer?


Hi T^2,

I just mention that W finally clearly understands that "I am not her friend b/c she is dating while we are married", b/c I finally made it that clear to her when we spoke a week and a half ago. And I am happy that I was finally clear with her, and after our convo she has had no contact with me, until this morning.

The frustrating part in dealing with d18 is that I text, I call, I email, and she does not respond. Maybe once a week she responds. So maybe I'll db her, I will call her once a week, and if she doesn't respond, I'll wait for her to make first contact. Dealing with kids is ALMOST as hard as dealing with MLC W.

TG's question about how I would like to be loved if I was in crisis, was one of those light bulb moments for me. Yes, I am going to keep saying it to all of you Veterans - Thank you.


Me-54 yrs; W: 50 yrs
4 kids- D: 22,20,19; S:15
"Trial" Divorce: 04/14 - 6/14
Separated: 06/2013- divorced 08/2016

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Good afternoon, Wet. smile

Originally Posted By: wet

There was no 'hi' or explanation, just a short text, so W is worried.


Mindreading.

Originally Posted By: wet

I reply in my typical smarta$$ fashion:


Is that who you want to be? How do you think that makes your w feel? Judged? Put down?

Originally Posted By: wet

D18 started a job 2 weeks ago, but I don't mind.


Sounds like you do kinda mind.

Originally Posted By: wet

My observation, W now clearly understands I am not friendly to her b/c she continues to date while we are married.


You got all of that from that text?

Originally Posted By: wet

But for some reason she thinks I will not help our children when they need it. My children are everything to me, and so I don't know why W has this impression of me.


Has she told you that? Maybe your responses make her feel uncomfortable about it. Just a thought.

Originally Posted By: wet

I am not being included in convos of what is going on with d18's financial stress, and I just wish I be included.


I kept my xh in the loop regarding son until he turned 18. Then if he wanted to know something, he had to speak with son about it. It's not your wife's job to keep you informed.

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So tell me about the lightbulb...

Was it LED, CF, or old school?
What color was the light?
Cool to the touch or hot?

wink


In the depths of winter, I finally learned that within me there lay an invincible summer. - Albert Camus

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Originally Posted By: TSquared2
So tell me about the lightbulb...

Was it LED, CF, or old school?
What color was the light?
Cool to the touch or hot?

wink


T^2, the light was definitely 'neon'. When I was growing up, my oldest brother had control of the basement, and it had neon lights, cool posters, and bead strings instead of doors. Seriously cool.

What the question did was to make me remember that my W is in crisis, and then turning the tables and made me think about how I would like to be treated/loved if I was going thru a crisis. Instead of me thinking about poor ol' Wet and how badly I am being treated, for a minute, I got the focus off of my pain, and thought about my W's pain also. It was a helpful exercise.


Me-54 yrs; W: 50 yrs
4 kids- D: 22,20,19; S:15
"Trial" Divorce: 04/14 - 6/14
Separated: 06/2013- divorced 08/2016

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I just wanted to check in and see how you were handling the grilling, oh um, introspection tasks. Lol

Life goes on here. S19 will be moving next week. I still start crying if I think about it too much. Even his brother admitted crying about it. They haven't been very close the last few years and these past months, they have grown closer. Sad about wasted time.

I am sure it won't be so awful but hard to convince my heart. All of his siblings are right where I am so I know it isn't just me.

kat


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Hi Kat, thanks for writing. Your S19 leaving sounds like another difficult chapter in life to face. It's interesting that everyone in your family is also feeling anxious about his leaving. He must be a special young man.

I am looking forward to this weekend. I will have both d17 and s13, and you know what that means - its a Mockingjay (Hunger Games) weekend!. We'll go see it tomorrow.

W asked if I would come work on her computer later today when I pick up the kids. When I removed viruses on my last work on her computer, I also removed her Photoshop program. For a photographer being without Photoshop, is like a lawyer being without a brain. Oh wait, I guess that analogy doesn't work so well. grin I am also seeing a couple of my old high school buddies for an extended lunch today. One of these friends enjoys baiting me into drinking with him, but I will keep it in check.

Have a good weekend.


Me-54 yrs; W: 50 yrs
4 kids- D: 22,20,19; S:15
"Trial" Divorce: 04/14 - 6/14
Separated: 06/2013- divorced 08/2016

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I was thinking about a comment you made earlier about how your W's projects and flair and stuff added to your routine life (I don't remember the exact words), and I get that, I'm a left-brain person and like things just so, planned, etc... and stbxw's "way" added some spontaneity and drama such into our lives. It worked for a long while, like your sitch.

It took me a while to get used to it not being there (the good kind, not the drama and such of the last 5 years) so I've had to dig into what void it filled in my planned ordered little world self, that I went through "withdrawal" when she removed it.

What void did her M.O. fill for you?


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Hi T^2,

Yes, it does seem like our wives are similar in nature. Yes, I too am structured, like things planned, and ordered. My kids give me bit of the spontaneity and drama (and liveliness) that I desire.

Here is a funny example. My d20 lived on her own for almost a year before moving in with me. She would stay out late, even overnight, and I would dutifully text her at midnight, asking if she was ok. After a few weeks of this, d20 wore me down and I now only check in on her every other night.

What void did my W fill for me? She always was into something new, meeting new people, and getting into trouble. All of this was something I enjoyed adding into my life. I also liked being the person my W looked to when something wasn't working out. I thought we complemented each other really well. And yes, I really miss having this part of my W in my life.


Me-54 yrs; W: 50 yrs
4 kids- D: 22,20,19; S:15
"Trial" Divorce: 04/14 - 6/14
Separated: 06/2013- divorced 08/2016

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I get that.

How can you fill that void yourself, without W, kids, pets, goldfish?

How can you meet your own needs?

smile


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Originally Posted By: TSquared2
I get that.

How can you fill that void yourself, without W, kids, pets, goldfish?

How can you meet your own needs? smile


That's the hard part now isn't it? I'm filling the "void" by spending more time out with friends and family, meeting new people myself (thru 'Divorce Care'), and learning new things - I've been to 2 cooking classes which I really enjoy. I plan on continuing the cooking classes in the future.

But it's not the same as sharing my life with someone else.

Maybe if I joined a Rock Band, oh wait, that's already been done - by you. It must be fun, but does that come anywhere near to filling the "void" your W left in your life?


Me-54 yrs; W: 50 yrs
4 kids- D: 22,20,19; S:15
"Trial" Divorce: 04/14 - 6/14
Separated: 06/2013- divorced 08/2016

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You can do the same thing that your wife does that appeals to you. Go out and do new and different things. If you are anything like me (incredibly shy) make yourself talk to strangers everyday. It could be at the grocery store line, in a video store. You name it. I will admit I really push myself there. My girls constantly tease me, "you are not shy Mom. You talk to so many people!". If they only knew how hard that really is for me.

Keep the parts of her life that shake yours up and that you enjoy. You and your life will begin to change .

kat


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Well, wet, I had years of "bad" chaos and spontaneity (a.k.a., crazy)...so I am actually enjoying the quiet, the structure, the planned-ness (with lots of wiggle room, this I took from how stbxw was and made it "medium") ...the peace. Sometimes it does feel weird though, tbh. But if it didn't feel weird at times, it wouldn't be change, right? smile

When I occasionally remember or miss the "good" chaos and spontaneity, I remind myself of the "bad", and store away the memories of the good. That usually puts a reality perspective on things.

I also have all 3 boys living at home, full-time. So between cooking, cleaning, school-bus driving, activity driving, grocery shopping, purging her "hoard", etc, by Friday I am "done" done. smile crazy

My band does help, a lot, 1 practice a week, and I have to practice on my own for 30-60 minutes a day.

Some things I do:

Exercise
Like kat, I talk to strangers (very unlike the old me)
I cook, a lot, I find the concentration calming.
Meditate
Read for pleasure (currently reading the Game of Thrones series)
Go to the free REI classes, even if it not some activity I do.
Spend time hanging with my sons

One thing I started doing a couple/3 or so years ago was try some things I used to do, but quit doing during the M:

Backpacking
Fly-tying
I built a couple model tanks and airplanes
Leather working

Slowly I've built an idea in my head of what I want my life to look like. I had 3 years to ponder it, lol!

Now I can build that life.

Like kat asked, what are some things she did that you can bring into your life? Cat breeding? wink

What are some things you did, and really liked, when younger that fell to the side during the M? Try them, see if they still are fulfilling some.

What do YOU want your life to look like, whether or not your W reconciles?

Because you are going to have to start building that life, if you reconcile, because it would not go back to the way things were. And if you D? You will have to do it anyway if you are not wanting to stay "stuck". Being how I am, I'd rather have a blueprint in place before any final decision is made...

What say you? wink


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Quote:
Maybe if I joined a Rock Band, oh wait, that's already been done - by you. It must be fun, but does that come anywhere near to filling the "void" your W left in your life?


It fills A LOT...male friends fell to the side during the M, and it balances out my left brain dominant tendencies. wink

These guys are all intelligent, creative, accomplished in their "real" careers, fun, positive.

And you know, not having to constantly "fix", care-take, clean up after stbxw, the mood swings, the drama, is a relief, which I felt guilty about at first, but don't anymore. I used to joke to myself that God gave me only sons because I already had a teenaged daughter (and this is long before MLC).


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The reason I asked the original question Wet, is that in the process of me figuring out myself, and which of MY needs were met by her "way"...I wonder if I was addicted to it (and I am not a big fan of the "everything is an addiction" Psych philosophy).

My role of rescuer, fixer, counselor, protector fed some very powerful ego needs and the subsequent "feel good" chemicals in the brain.

Plus, as long as I was doing the above ^^^ , she wouldn't leave me. Which assuaged MY big core fear, abandonment.

Just something to ponder bud.

smile


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I can attest, there's no better divorce therapy than joining a rock band! smile Plus now, I have guaranteed concert buddies who will go to see almost any band with me smile Sometimes my boyfriend will go with us, but usually it's just me, my guitarist and the bass player.

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Originally Posted By: TSquared2
The reason I asked the original question Wet, is that in the process of me figuring out myself, and which of MY needs were met by her "way"...I wonder if I was addicted to it (and I am not a big fan of the "everything is an addiction" Psych philosophy)...

Plus, as long as I was doing the above ^^^ , she wouldn't leave me. Which assuaged MY big core fear, abandonment.

Just something to ponder bud. smile


Thanks T^2. I get what you are saying. I just haven't yet processed this part of my R with W.

And guys, I get the need to do more GAL activities. I'm a wee bit discouraged after my surgery. The neuropathy on my left leg has now gone up to my hip. I had an MRI yesterday, and the surgeon is going to put me on some new medication - with a list of possible side effects that compares favorably in length with the New York City telephone book (am I dating myself with this reference?). But at least the doc is trying something.

But I've enjoyed the first part of the weekend - went to "Mockingjay" with d17 and s13. They enjoyed it (when the objective in the movie is to save Peeta, you've already lost me.) It's always nice having the home filled with the three kids (d20 included.)


Me-54 yrs; W: 50 yrs
4 kids- D: 22,20,19; S:15
"Trial" Divorce: 04/14 - 6/14
Separated: 06/2013- divorced 08/2016

“The strongest of all warriors are these two — Time and Patience.” War and Peace
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 942
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I have not written about my dealings with my W in a while, and so here is my update. There is one dating site that you can actually Google the dating profiles of its members, and my W was on this site for the past several months. I Googled her pseudonym last night and she is no longer showing up on there.

I saw W on Friday afternoon when I picked up the kids. She was still in her pajamas with no make-up (which is unusual for her). I worked a bit on her computer to try and get her Photoshop working - I was unsuccessful. There was a file missing, and I've emailed her a couple of ways to fix this problem this weekend.

I am only observing, no conclusions being drawn, or expectations given. Nothing has changed in my dealings with W, and so this is all I can see right now.


Me-54 yrs; W: 50 yrs
4 kids- D: 22,20,19; S:15
"Trial" Divorce: 04/14 - 6/14
Separated: 06/2013- divorced 08/2016

“The strongest of all warriors are these two — Time and Patience.” War and Peace
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 942
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Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 942
I am angry, excuse my venting. I text W at 5:15 to let her know I was coming to drop off s13 at W's condo. She tells me she is "out" with some old high school friends. This does not matter as W can allow someone who buzzes in her security entrance from her phone. Yes, s13 had keys, but when W lost her keys she took his set.

15 minutes later we are at W's condo, s13 buzzes the security door, and there is no response. We wait. S13 texts W, no response. I text d17 who is upstairs, but her phone is off. I call, and text W, but her phone is off, it immediately rolls over to her voicemail. We wait 15 minutes, no other response, so I take s13 back to my place.

W calls 20 minutes later all laughing, saying she had her phone right in front of her, and never got our messages or texts. I tell her (I am short with her) to come pick up s13 at my place. I leave it at that.

W texts me shortly after we spoke to say she has had two drinks, and so she may be a while. She texts s13 saying she will pick him up tonight at 8 pm.

The whole thing makes me angry. First, I don't want W to be out when I drop off s13, and this is our standard time. I don't want to hear who she is out with (but this was a nice reminder for me that she continues to see other men). And I am angry that we are separated and have to go thru cr*p like this.

And the fact that she is too drunk to come pick up s13 is icing on the cake of my anger. Arghhhh!


Me-54 yrs; W: 50 yrs
4 kids- D: 22,20,19; S:15
"Trial" Divorce: 04/14 - 6/14
Separated: 06/2013- divorced 08/2016

“The strongest of all warriors are these two — Time and Patience.” War and Peace
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 10,326
K
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K
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 10,326
She can't get him another set of keys? They can't cost that much.

She has never stopped. I don't think she plans to stop. Right now your frustration is only hurting you. She doesn't care. So either get yourself to a place where you don't care or move forward..

I know you don't have enough room right now to keep your son with you but that would be one of my goals if I was you. Focus on you and your kids. Keep creating a better life for all of you. They depend on you. Let them be part of your motivation.

kat


Me-53(and learning!)
S24, S21, D18, D17
Just keep swimming, Just keep swimming. Dory
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