Intro and Thoughts

[Hrdtims]

Hi guys and gals,
I find support here reading your posts. Here is my situation:
Our history M-18yrs, together 21, Me 41, Her 43, 3 great kids 15, 14, and 10. I have read DR, she does not search out information or help other than one of her close friends (girl). I do not know if the following was the friends advice.

No abuse, no adultery, no other people (I believe this although I cannot say 100% sure), and no drug or significant alcohol issues.

She stated (and continues to state) that she has slowly over the last years become emotionally detached from me and does not want to kiss or make love anymore. She wants a trial separation, but does not want to be the one to leave. I accepted that I have not been as attentive to her needs prior to this conversation (3 months ago) and should have picked up that this was happening years ago but didn't think we were that bad off (much better than my parents have modeled for me). I did a 180 for the last three months and have tried to show her the man that I am. I probably was doing too much and began to withdrawal, at which point she reached out to me and continues to. We hold each other nightly in our bed and it is comforting and confusing for me (and also for her).
She still talks of separation but acts like she enjoys me there, we seem to be close friends and in love at home (at night) but when we are out she will not show me affection and still does not want to be intimate.

She says that she is back and forth saying it will be OK, wanting the best for our kids and me but has not seen her feelings change over the last three months.
Please help, she and I are in so much pain. Our kids deserve us together. I have so much Love for her and them. I am following the recommendations in DR and am comforted by the community that you are a part of.

I guess that I have three questions:
1. Since it is I who knows what they want, I do not believe it is I that should move out. I told her I will support her decision financially and get her a appt across the street until she can resolve – Am I unrealistic with this?
2. When she tries to hold me at night should I refuse – stating that it is just too confusing to me?
3. When I pull away from her she states that “so you are turning the page on me” which I am not but it makes me reassure her. I can say that I am just working things out and am unsure – but this lack of affection and attention is part of the reason that I am in this mess. Thoughts???

Thanks, I have placed a lot of weight on what you may say. I wanted her to pursue this herself but she is not the best planner. I have had one session of online coaching and she will have a session tonight. I cannot stand to see her so sad but I am afraid that I will not be able to forgive her or myself if she proceeds with this path.

[123Gwen]

You said you want to help her because she is not the best planner. I think helping her move out is a mistake. Talk to your coach but separating is a huge step and it might possibly lead to more problems.

Do you think this is more of a MLC or strictly intimacy issues. Intimacy issues can turn into a MLC so it is great you are getting help. I wish I would have found this board sooner.

1) I would not move out and if she decides to move out I would not help her take that step by doing the work. That being said you don't need to stand in her way either. This is part of the detachment process Michelle keeps talking about.
2) Withholding affection might be part of the problem. She seems to want to connect but you are having trouble expressing how to get there. Don't deny affection if you know what you want. It may just make things worse.
3) see number 2 and the. The cycle starts all over again.

What is your goal? Is it small and measurable? Actions speak louder than words. Also lots of relationship talk is a turn off. I am really new here but this is what I am getting from the books.

[Hrdtims]

Thanks Gwen,

She states that she slowly lost her connection from me over the years. It has been a long time since we were on the same page sexually, me being more needy and her less. It probibally started there for me which made me feel rejected and began to withhold from her. The intamacy issues probibally prompted the MLC and possibly a emotional connection with a OP for her (although she denies it and I don't think so).

I try not to talk of it and give her space but she looks sad and I want to hold her...and she begins the relationship (or lack of ) talk. Yes, I have goals that I have set.

I'm sorry you went through what you did, my kids are younger. How did they take the news? How do you prepare them?

[Cadet]

My wife (near WAW) has had a session with a DB coach (Denise) last night.
1. Has anyone done this before?
My wife states she is "emotionally detatched" and has been for years (I assume much of the responcibility here-not all-but have changed what I need to in the last 3 months). She is not sexually attracted to me . She may have a connection with a OM??? but denies and he may not know. She talks of seperation, switching off every week (sharing a appartment).
2. Has anyone tried this? How did it work out? Do you reccommend?
I have stated that I would support her in her desision to move out but refuse to switch as I know what I want and do not believe spending time apart is benifical.
3. Am I wong here?
I have tried done a 180 for the last 3 months, detatched GOL and show her support.
4. Is it a waiting game at his point?
Thanks, I appreciate your time.

from other thread

[Hrdtims]

We are still in the same house yet, but she does not connect with me as a H. She stopped wearing her rings this week. States that it is gone, have not made love in a month. doing DB couseling with her which gives me hope but think all is lost. Detatching does not seem to work with her, holding and being a good person and H seems to...but I do not know. She cried in church yesterday and stated that she wants to tell the kids (they know something is up). I told her that I would support her if she wanted to move out, but think I will be resentful if she does. I almost want to give her a ultimatum and ask to either put back on her rings and be my W or move out until she can figure it out but am afraid.

Its hard when we love them so much, I accept some responcibility but ultimatly it is now her choice.

I hope you find peace.

[sandi2]

Have you read the entire Divorce Remedy book?

Whose idea was it for her to have the DB coaching session? Does she know about this board?

Detatching does not seem to work with her,

Okay, Hrdtims, "detaching" is not for her. It is to help you. If you mean your detaching does not get a response from her, then you misunderstand the concept. Could you help me understand how you mean this statement?

I told her that I would support her if she wanted to move out,

I personally do not agree with supporting her actions that you already believe you will resent. Do not tell her you will support her. If she wants to live without you, then she should do it without your money. Where will the kids stay? Will you have them 50% of the time? I would consult with a lawyer before telling her anything about financial support. Find out about your rights.

I almost want to give her a ultimatum and ask to either put back on her rings and be my W or move out until she can figure it out but am afraid.

First of all, WAW's do not respond well to an ultimatum. Never ever use it as a bluff b/c she will call your hand on it. Then you better be prepared to back up your words!

Instead of ultimatums, learn about "boundaries" and how to establish them. Boundaries are not about controlling the other person, but they are to protect yourself. You are the only one you can control.

You probably already know this, but in case somebody is reading this post who doesn't.....I'll throw it in. Most men seem to make a "connection" with their W through making love with them. However, most women need to feel an emotional connection with their H in order to desire making love. Strange, huh?

From the outsider's view, it seems your W has felt the lack of an emotional connection with you for quite some time. This lack of connection caused her desire for sex to take a dive. When you felt her lack of desire for you, you felt rejected and turned cold on her. So things went from bad to worse. If you can learn how to make an emotional connection with her, I think she will warm up towards you.

If she has made an emotional connection with another man, then the stitch is automatically complicated. Why? B/c she has allowed a third party into the M (even if it's just emotionally). For a woman, that's a big deal. Remember, she needs to feel the connection emotionally before she wants it physically. If OM is fulfilling her emotional needs, it's a matter of time before it will lead to a physical connection.

So, what 180's have you done?

[gogofo]

You probably already know this, but in case somebody is reading this post who doesn't.....I'll throw it in. Most men seem to make a "connection" with their W through making love with them. However, most women need to feel an emotional connection with their H in order to desire making love. Strange, huh?

This I think is a very basic and common mistake males make as relationships change. I know is my case I did not know that how my W and I were interacting was not building and maintaining the amount of affection in our relationship. I did not know or understand the difference, especially when in the beginning of a relationship we (men) tend to naturally do things that build and keep affection alive.

No excuses now, but now most of us are not in a place to actively build on the affection. Right now it may seem as "too little too late" to your spouse; especially if she is a WAS.

During my first attempted reconciliation I made the mistake about this. My W and I cuddled and talked and had some wine. When it was done we progressed into having sex, but it did not seem natural to her. She told me she felt like a commodity and a prostitute. She felt like I cuddled her and listened so now it was time for my payment, sex.

Not at all how I wanted her to feel and I did not have some of the knowledge I do now about the subject. After this incident I specifically sought out information about the subject because I knew that it was primarily an issue created by me.

Here are two quotes from "His Needs, Her Needs" that helped clarify this concept for me.

"affection is the environment of the marriage; sex is the special event"

"In most cases, a woman needs to feel emotionally bonded with her husband before she has sex with him. Sex for her becomes a physical expression of that emotional bond. She achieves this feeling through the exchange of affection and undivided attention."

[Starsky309]

Have you read the entire Divorce Remedy book?

Whose idea was it for her to have the DB coaching session? Does she know about this board?

Detatching does not seem to work with her,

Okay, Hrdtims, "detaching" is not for her. It is to help you. If you mean your detaching does not get a response from her, then you misunderstand the concept. Could you help me understand how you mean this statement?

I told her that I would support her if she wanted to move out,

I personally do not agree with supporting her actions that you already believe you will resent. Do not tell her you will support her. If she wants to live without you, then she should do it without your money. Where will the kids stay? Will you have them 50% of the time? I would consult with a lawyer before telling her anything about financial support. Find out about your rights.

I almost want to give her a ultimatum and ask to either put back on her rings and be my W or move out until she can figure it out but am afraid.

First of all, WAW's do not respond well to an ultimatum. Never ever use it as a bluff b/c she will call your hand on it. Then you better be prepared to back up your words!

Instead of ultimatums, learn about "boundaries" and how to establish them. Boundaries are not about controlling the other person, but they are to protect yourself. You are the only one you can control.

You probably already know this, but in case somebody is reading this post who doesn't.....I'll throw it in. Most men seem to make a "connection" with their W through making love with them. However, most women need to feel an emotional connection with their H in order to desire making love. Strange, huh?

From the outsider's view, it seems your W has felt the lack of an emotional connection with you for quite some time. This lack of connection caused her desire for sex to take a dive. When you felt her lack of desire for you, you felt rejected and turned cold on her. So things went from bad to worse. If you can learn how to make an emotional connection with her, I think she will warm up towards you.

If she has made an emotional connection with another man, then the stitch is automatically complicated. Why? B/c she has allowed a third party into the M (even if it's just emotionally). For a woman, that's a big deal. Remember, she needs to feel the connection emotionally before she wants it physically. If OM is fulfilling her emotional needs, it's a matter of time before it will lead to a physical connection.

So, what 180's have you done?

Hrdtms, all of this. ^^^^


If your wife wants to leave the marriage, then you need to get some legal advice pronto and SHE needs to learn to put on her BGPs. You can't control her nor prevent her from running away from your family, but you certainly don't need to finance the flight.


Starsky

[HPoirot]

I agree with you about connection and work to focus on building emotional connection with my MLC wife.

Our situation is she announced she no longer loves me. She is now in an emotional phone/text affair with an OM she met a month ago.

I discovered this affair a week ago on our phone bill.

I demanded her to stop. She said she would but then has not. She has also hidden her phone records from me.

She expects me to hound her about this everyday.

She expects me to be angry and depressed.

No doubt... part of me TRULY wants to rage and throw her from this house.

Even so, my goal is to save this marriage... so practicing detachment while also focusing on maintaining my swagger/attractiveness while trying to accept her as she is now is what I'm doing.

Accepting her seems to be the first part of recreating the attachment.

It has allowed me to sit and listen to her talk about anything she wants to talk about.

I relax and lean back while softly holding her gaze.

At first, she can't look in my eyes long and wrings her hands or crosses her arms in front of her chest while she talks.

Eventually, she relaxes, leans back, relaxes her face, and smiles.

It helps to repeat in your mind "I love you wife" while you gaze into her eyes.

Asking her questions, repeating what she says as questions, and asking "How do you feel about that?" keeps her talking.

She comes to me now, after all the terrible things she's said so far, to apologize, tell me how guilty and terrible she feels, talk about her day, or talk about current events.

I smile after she talks for a while and look for opportunities to make her laugh.

I also touch her gently on her forearm, shoulder, or knee as we talk (no grabbing).

I then innocently leave my arm, hand, or knee close enough for her to reach.

After a bit she starts to unconsciously touch me back while she talks.

Last night before bed (we still sleep together) I made her laugh. Right then I said, "Here, give me a hug" which she warmly did while calling me silly.

Then I said with a coy smile, "Let's hug before bed every night" which is my small goal for this week.

(I did push too far, though, and later kissed her somewhat sexually making her a little uncomfortable. She didn't leave the bed and kept talking so dodged a bullet there.)

If you're like me, you can't hide your pain and EXTREME EXTREME anger over this.

Let that go on too long, though, and, every time she looks into your eyes, she will see your pain and want to run away from her guilt.

So relax, focus on accepting her and being openly available while detaching so she can come to you, then sit and listen when she come and love her gently with your eyes, face, and the tips of your fingers.

Having fun with it makes you less angry.

I guess that's sensuality? If I'd only known sooner...

[sandi2]

No excuses now, but now most of us are not in a place to actively build on the affection. Right now it may seem as "too little too late" to your spouse; especially if she is a WAS.

Maybe some guys get too focused on the fact there is no affection from the WAW. For an undetermined period of time, you have to step back and stop focusing on the lack of affection and turn your concentration to where it started.....and the only one you can do anything about. It's as if you have to start way back to square one. I mean go back to being the man you were before you met/dated your W. Maybe that man needs some improvements. While you are detached and focusing on finding & improving yourself, forget about your payment. Stop watching her to see if she notices or will respond. You are giving "time" and "space" in the MR and you back away from her and her drama. Once you rediscover your self-confidence, masculinity, self-respect, inner strength, charm, polish up the personality & physical body, become more interesting and fun to be around, and anything else you need to tend to......then you are better prepared to face the W...later on. If she sees glimpses of the man she fell in love with once before....it just might stir her curiosity enough and/or appeal to something still buried inside her that will give opportunity for you to ever-so-slowly began developing an emotional connection again. Did you know that the purpose of dating was really designed for the two souls to get to know each other outside of having physical sex together. (Not to get laid, as some may think.)

"In most cases, a woman needs to feel emotionally bonded with her husband before she has sex with him. Sex for her becomes a physical expression of that emotional bond. She achieves this feeling through the exchange of affection and undivided attention."

And during the courtship/dating stage, that is what is happening. They both feed each other certain emotional needs. He may not need it as much as she does. He may be building her up or preparing her to want him physically. After marriage, the law of nature (so to speak) does not change in that sense. Women still need to be emotionally built up and feel that connection with the man. When the man has the attitude that it is no longer necessary b/c they are now married, he stops giving her that emotional food he gave during the courtship. He won the girl, so now she should be ready to hop in bed without any work emotionally from him. But then her love tank runs dry and she doesn't want sex. They each stop giving the other one what is needed. So, the other problems follow.

I'm not blaming men. If they don't know, they don't know. And likewise for women. And in today's society, I am surprised any relationships succeed b/c couples are misled and misinformed. They get into the physical sex way too soon and we are reading about more couples where the female's sexual desire starts declining before they even make it to the wedding chapel. So, there is a lot to be said about the pros of emotional courtship.

If the man is smart, he will continue to court his W all down through their M years together.