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#2499181 10/21/14 06:32 PM
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Previous thread:
thread #4

Not sure what to title this one after what happened last night. WAW told me, among other things, that she wants to date other men.

Last edited by Card29; 10/21/14 06:33 PM.

Me 38, WAW 30
D11 (former marriage)
S2
T 8 years
M 3 years
BD 8/20/23
S 8/20/23
Card29 #2499185 10/21/14 06:37 PM
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Fear of the future was just triggered by a woman's perfume. A woman at my work wears the same perfume WAW wore for the first 3-5 years of our R. Reminds me of when she was crazy about me. Time will heal a lot of wounds but I am afraid of the fact that there will be pain from this for the rest of my life. If we didn't have D2, and we D, I would have wanted to move to a completely different part of the country. Everything in this city reminds me of something with her. Dates, visits to the park, looking for a house, jobs we've worked, places we met, kissed, got married, where D2 was born. There is nowhere to hide and nowhere to run.


Me 38, WAW 30
D11 (former marriage)
S2
T 8 years
M 3 years
BD 8/20/23
S 8/20/23
Card29 #2499187 10/21/14 06:39 PM
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for her either.


Me42, H40
D12, S8, S7
A revealed: 7/13
Sep 4/14; Agreed to D 1/15

She believed she could, so she did.
Maybell #2499188 10/21/14 06:41 PM
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It will pass, Card. Don't focus on all the things that remind you of her. Let her go and trust the universe to sort things out. The future might hold exciting things for you. You are still young!


M: 43 H: 39
D: 14
Married 15 Together 16
BD: 6/2014
S: 8/2014
OW revealed 10/2014
Instigated dissolution 12/2014, in progress
So over it!
Maybell #2499189 10/21/14 06:46 PM
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Originally Posted By: Maybell
for her either.

True.
Or do they even care?


Me 47 - W 35
M 9 - T 10
2 Daughters - 7 & 9
Discovery of EA- 8/4/14
S - 8/5/15
D mentioned - 9/11/14
R & Piecing - 3/17/15
Regard one another as more important than yourselves.
- Philippians 2:3
Jefe #2499192 10/21/14 06:51 PM
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Try and be thankful for the happy memories rather than sad for what you've lost.

I've got great memories from university but at no point do I feel sad that I'm not at uni anymore.


Both mid 30s, 2 young kids
BD 7sep14
XW moved on long ago, now living with OM1
D paperwork in progress
Card29 #2499194 10/21/14 06:55 PM
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Card, that's a lot of fear in your short post. A while back, I listed out all the things I was afraid of. What are you afraid of? Are you afraid of never loving again? Being loved again? Finances? Time with D2? I'll bet it's not as long of a list as you are imagining. And I'll bet that you can take care of some of them in a rational way.

One of my fears was finances. Two trips to the L's office took care of that.

My biggest hang up with S (and D) has always been the kids. Last session, my IC challenged me to tell her the ways my kids lives would be different if H and I didn't live together. The list wasn't as long as I thought, and not as disruptive as I thought. Obviously, I still believe that it's best for them to be raised by two loving parents in the same household, I'll always believe that, but I saw that two loving parents not in the same household isn't as terrible as I was imagining. That fear has lessened for me because I dealt with it head on.

Make a list. Post it. What are you afraid of?



"Don't look back, you aren't going that way"
SunnyB #2499223 10/21/14 07:54 PM
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- I fear lifelong pain. I know I won't hurt like this forever and it will become less and less frequent. But I feel like I will have regular flashbacks for the rest of my life. Just to put it in perspective, I've only had one other "steady" relationship, a 3-month fling in high school. I still have flashbacks about the day my GF broke up with me. They aren't that painful and not very frequent anymore. But 11 years after a 3-month R and it still slightly bothers me! There is a pool I drive past on the way to daycare. I was there with GF the day she broke up with me. It's not even where we were when we broke up. Yet EVERY time I see that pool I think of that day. Usually not in a painful way, but it's still there. I fear what BigD after a 7 year M and birth of a child will do to me 5, 10, 30 years from now, especially given that there is not a single neighborhood or area in the entire city I dont have some kind of memory (good or regrettable) about W.

- I do NOT a fear never being loved again. I think I am a great dad and good H (willing to improve anything I can). I also feel confident I know what I would want in a future W, or at least what I wouldn't focus on as much (physical beauty)

- I do fear everything that comes with a child split between two households. Step father. Split holidays. What if the step parents have kids too? It's a mess. I hate the fact that another man might take my place for half of D2's life. To put that in perspective, when I was looking for a new job before D was born, I turned down a $80,000 job in exchange for a $55,000 job in part because the higher paying job would have been an additional 8-10 hours of commuting and 8-10 hours of work every week, not to mention I would never be able to visit D2 during the day. I wanted those hours with my family. Now I don't see them for half of the week. Money is the least important thing in the world to me. I have no fear that WAW will try to screw me if it comes to BigD, although I will protect myself.

- my biggest fear since I was a child was the BigD. My parents withdrew into a miserable M. I was always afraid they would D. I swore since I was a kid that I would never get a D. Little did I know I was just repeating my parents' pattern of withdrawing into what I was content with, ignoring W's needs

- I fear my D2 blaming herself someday. I fear her repeating history like we did. I do feel like I can help this point by educating her and demonstrating to her a healthy M, either with WAW someday or another M, something none of our parents did for us (her dad cheated and left when she was 12, her mom remarried and did nothing to care for that M, either, eventually landing in BigD #2).

- I fear WAW dating someone (singular or plural) else. If it clicks, it will feel 100x's better to her than anything we've had in the last 7-8 years because of the nature of the beginning of an R and her fog making her believe our M was nothing but hell. That would be the nail in the coffin of a renewed M for us.

- even if her dating doesn't lead to anything, and even if it gives her time to process things, come out of her fog and decide she wants to try with me, I fear the process of getting over the fact that she openly dated and had sex outside of our M. At this point, I would take this option over any other one that is likely on the table. It's not my biggest fear on this list. But WAW had sex with 3-4 guys before I met her (I was a virgin), and it took me every bit of 5 years to let go of that (and it still bothers me occasionally, especially lately after BD). Not sure how that process would go, although if we fell back in love it would probably be easier than I fear.

- I fear the possibility that I will have had the biggest awakening of my life (to what is most important to me, to how to build and sustain a successful M) a few months after it was too late to use any of this newfound passion, skill or clarity. I know the timing is not a coincidence (I wasn't going to be awakened until the trauma hit, like a guy who suddenly realizes he wants to live after he jumps off of the bridge), but it still feels almost intentional due to my continued neglect and disrespect of my W and M. I know I wasn't the worst H in the world and I usually meant well. But I definitely deserve some of this pain. I don't think I deserve to be abandoned all at once. Even a serious statement from her ("I am not happy with our M and haven't been for a while") would have been enough to wake me up. The very first trickle of BD made my heart fall into my stomach. She had been in Paris for 2 weeks, I missed her tremendously, we had a mean exchange on a Monday morning, and an hour after I was at work, I got an IM from her that said, "I think I should visit my grandparents alone this weekend." I hadn't seen her for 2 weeks and she wanted even more space? I knew immediately that something was gravely wrong inside of her.


Me 38, WAW 30
D11 (former marriage)
S2
T 8 years
M 3 years
BD 8/20/23
S 8/20/23
Card29 #2499237 10/21/14 08:23 PM
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I also fear that a couple who is nearly perfect for each other, just uneducated in marriage/love building principles, will miss out on the chance for a truly wonderful marriage.


Me 38, WAW 30
D11 (former marriage)
S2
T 8 years
M 3 years
BD 8/20/23
S 8/20/23
Card29 #2499243 10/21/14 08:30 PM
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I need to find someone I can talk to in person. My mom is close by and loves me, but she can't help but tell her sister everything she knows. I don't want the possibility of my W dating being out in public. That would spiral out of control quickly, because I have some emotional, defensive, somewhat vengeful cousins that might harass WAW. That would be bad in every way, so they can't know this. Because of that, I can't tell any of my family, except maybe my sister who lives 1/2 of the country away. She has no issue keeping something to herself. My mom CAN, but it would almost be torture for her to not tell her sister/BFF. Once it goes there, it inevitably becomes public knowledge.


Me 38, WAW 30
D11 (former marriage)
S2
T 8 years
M 3 years
BD 8/20/23
S 8/20/23
Card29 #2499248 10/21/14 08:39 PM
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Yes!!!! So tragic and true. That is what happened to my ex-fiance. No clue what lasting committed love entails or how to communicate. All was great until the bomb drop Wish I knew that before it was too late and could have helped to fix it.


Engaged Aug 2009
Fiancé had doubts Jan 2010
Happily re-engaged July 2012
Discovery of affair July 2014
Separated July 2014
Fiancé is confused about whom to choose
Chose the OW Oct 2014
Card29 #2499250 10/21/14 08:41 PM
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"I need to find someone I can talk to in person. "

Why not go to a C to let it all out? You just explained why telling anyone close to you is a bad idea.


M-43 W-40
2D - 9 and 5

Emotion, yet peace.
Ignorance, yet knowledge.
Passion, yet serenity.
Chaos, yet harmony.
Death, yet a new life.

RECONCILED AND WISER
MrBond #2499288 10/21/14 10:08 PM
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Those are valid fears Card many that I know I myself have and im sure others too. Your thoughts on the clarity and although needed the fear that you have this knowledge and cannot use it the way it should be or have known it before can drive you crazy. I am trying to work and using it for future. That this knowledge even if it doesnt help my marriage will help me be a better person. that will help me as a F and any othr relationship rather friends, family, wife, or future relationship.


I agree with Mr Bond the someone else being a neutral C would be a good thing. I have already spoken to counselors even over the phone and have set up a regular IC sessions for a lifetime commitment of working on things.


Me 38
WAW 40
S 10
S 5
M 5 years
BD 10/04/14
S 10/04/14
CMS #2499296 10/21/14 10:48 PM
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Card, do you realize you have now lost 20 hours and a day of work over something your wife said that she might do sometime in the future?

She isn't dating yet. She doesn't yet have an OM. She just said it was something she might do in the future. Don't lose your s$&t over what might happen in the future.

You are losing track of the here and now. Don't get ahead of yourself, there's enough to take care of in the present moment.


Me42, H40
D12, S8, S7
A revealed: 7/13
Sep 4/14; Agreed to D 1/15

She believed she could, so she did.
Maybell #2499302 10/21/14 11:06 PM
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I appreciate the direct words, Maybell. Just her being open to it is cutting me really deep. I came home and had a good cry, then my thoughts started going into the details of what the dating might entail. My god I can't go there with my thoughts.

I am canceling the PI tomorrow (who I haven't talked to since I hired him). I still don't regret hiring him because it allowed me to stop worrying and start focusing on myself. Now that she has openly stated her intentions, I see nothing productive that can come from that anymore. Confirm that she is on a date? No thanks


Me 38, WAW 30
D11 (former marriage)
S2
T 8 years
M 3 years
BD 8/20/23
S 8/20/23
Card29 #2499309 10/22/14 12:07 AM
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Latest entry into my personal journal:

"Your old M is dead. There is no guarantee of a new one with WAW. Your M is only a piece of paper at this point."

Is this the healthiest mentality for me to seek? If I see her as my W openly running around with OM, I am not going to function.

P.S. - I was actually able to get a few things done at work. Got 6 hours in. Saved a vacation day. I have a full week left for the rest of the year. No idea what I'm going to do with that week seeing that all of my family is in town, and I won't be joining WAW on her Thanksgiving or Christmas trips to her out of town family.

Last edited by Card29; 10/22/14 12:11 AM.

Me 38, WAW 30
D11 (former marriage)
S2
T 8 years
M 3 years
BD 8/20/23
S 8/20/23
Card29 #2499321 10/22/14 12:25 AM
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Card, I say this with all goodwill. You have got to stop thinking about OM. It hasn't even happened. You are poisoning your brain for no reason.

I am not a shining example of anything at all, but I've known about OW since BD six months ago. I have not brought it up a single time and have not given the duck more than 30 min thought. I simply do not have to time to spend on her kind. And I have no intention of polluting my brain with images that would make it more difficult for me to forgive H. Whether we R or not.

You need to find a way to stop those thoughts before they take you down a dark path.



"Don't look back, you aren't going that way"
SunnyB #2499335 10/22/14 12:45 AM
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^^^Me thinks I should take this advice too.


Me 47 - W 35
M 9 - T 10
2 Daughters - 7 & 9
Discovery of EA- 8/4/14
S - 8/5/15
D mentioned - 9/11/14
R & Piecing - 3/17/15
Regard one another as more important than yourselves.
- Philippians 2:3
SunnyB #2499338 10/22/14 12:50 AM
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I agree. I thought I had done a lot of work, but this is like a 2nd BD and almost feels like a DB reset. So far to go. But you are right. I absolutely can't think of it. That will be a very new challenge, though. Now that she's open about the possibility, I have to stop thinking about her. I was happy and detached until the moment she told me this. But that was a minor detachment and minor worldview reset compared to what I need to do now. I was still motivating myself with the hope that "this is temporary" and imagining a beautiful future. I had no expectations for timeframe and was prepared for a very long, patient road. Not sure if that should be my mindset now.


Me 38, WAW 30
D11 (former marriage)
S2
T 8 years
M 3 years
BD 8/20/23
S 8/20/23
Card29 #2499342 10/22/14 01:02 AM
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Originally Posted By: Card29
Now that she's open about the possibility, I have to stop thinking about her.
Missed the edit window. Should have said "I have to stop thinking about her as my W". We don't live together, I only see her once a week, and that's sometimes only for 10 seconds, I can't kiss her or tell her I love her. I am married without a W, if that makes sense. I will not be pursuing an R outside of this M, regardless of what she does, until a D is filed and sufficient time has passed.

Thinking out loud here.


Me 38, WAW 30
D11 (former marriage)
S2
T 8 years
M 3 years
BD 8/20/23
S 8/20/23
Card29 #2499343 10/22/14 01:05 AM
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Rp: actually thinking of OM as a duck might really help me. Thanks


M: 33
W: 33
M: 9 T: 10
3 S's: 8, 6 and 1.5
BD: 8/3/14
Living together
Card29 #2499442 10/22/14 11:00 AM
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Originally Posted By: Card29
Latest entry into my personal journal: "Your old M is dead. There is no guarantee of a new one with WAW. Your M is only a piece of paper at this point." Is this the healthiest mentality for me to seek?


I know there are a lot of people who like this phrase (old marriage is dead) but I'm not one of them. And I certainly don't agree that my M is only a piece of paper at this point. Here's the way I'm thinking about it:

For me, my M is a Chapter in my life - full of memories, good and bad, but overwhelmingly good. Regardless of where my H is at, I will look back on my time with him and appreciate the times I did have and how he influenced my story to this point. That Chapter is already written; I read it with my own eyes. He can't take that away from me. Now I've turned a new page and am starting the next Chapter. I don't know where it is going yet or who the characters are….


H 37 Me 36
Together 15 years
Married 5 years
No kids
BD Apr 2014
H moved out 2 Jun 2014
gan #2499449 10/22/14 11:10 AM
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Thank you ganb8te, that was just the wording I was looking for. That has bothered me too.


Me 47 - W 35
M 9 - T 10
2 Daughters - 7 & 9
Discovery of EA- 8/4/14
S - 8/5/15
D mentioned - 9/11/14
R & Piecing - 3/17/15
Regard one another as more important than yourselves.
- Philippians 2:3
Jefe #2499458 10/22/14 11:37 AM
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Thanks, as well, ganb8te. I was trying to 2x4 myself, but yours is more accurate to how I would feel if I was not a complete wreck.


Me 38, WAW 30
D11 (former marriage)
S2
T 8 years
M 3 years
BD 8/20/23
S 8/20/23
Card29 #2499465 10/22/14 11:59 AM
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Its helped me so it might help. Have you ever seen the film 'up' - really sad start. But late in the film he finds a book with all the happy memories in it and realises that although they didn't achieve all they wanted they still had a good time.

So that's how I kind of think about things. I'm starting a new adventure but I'm grateful that I had the previous one (my R with my W). Not the same as giving up just recognising that adventure is done.


Both mid 30s, 2 young kids
BD 7sep14
XW moved on long ago, now living with OM1
D paperwork in progress
jim0987 #2499469 10/22/14 12:04 PM
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I hear you. I think that is a healthy mentality to have, but I'm just not there or ready yet.


Me 38, WAW 30
D11 (former marriage)
S2
T 8 years
M 3 years
BD 8/20/23
S 8/20/23
Card29 #2499472 10/22/14 12:18 PM
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And we hear you, Card. You're processing things right now and that's ok.


H 37 Me 36
Together 15 years
Married 5 years
No kids
BD Apr 2014
H moved out 2 Jun 2014
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I'm also at a GAL standstill. Need to figure out what to do next. My late summer, early fall activities were awesome, but they are either finished or have run their course. I do have a free private salsa lesson next week. Not really excited about dancing right now, though.

Last edited by Card29; 10/22/14 12:23 PM.

Me 38, WAW 30
D11 (former marriage)
S2
T 8 years
M 3 years
BD 8/20/23
S 8/20/23
Card29 #2499476 10/22/14 12:28 PM
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What about guitar lessons?

In both states where I've lived, there are music schools where you learn to play first and music reading & theory second. If you Search for "performance based" lessons you will find them. My daughter took piano lessons that way and was playing fairly complicated blues pieces (as well as some of her favorite pop tunes) within a couple of months. The high school aged son of one of my friends here just signed with a record label after 3 years at a performance based school.

Just a thought, since you enjoyed the dancing.


Me42, H40
D12, S8, S7
A revealed: 7/13
Sep 4/14; Agreed to D 1/15

She believed she could, so she did.
1foot2 #2499481 10/22/14 12:49 PM
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foot, I lifted the duck from a series of novels I enjoy. They are hilariously funny as well as being mysteries. When I was writing out our S agreement, I made reference to "any man, woman, or duck you might be dating". I didn't send that version to H, but I have used the term privately since.

Card, to go along with Maybell's idea, my S18 taught himself to play piano from You Tube. He didn't learn to read music and never practiced technique, but he has a good time. You could see what's available for guitar. I recently bought a Groupon for a year's worth of access to an online guitar course. It's as many lessons as you want to take in a year for a really great price. I haven't started those yet, though.



"Don't look back, you aren't going that way"
SunnyB #2499491 10/22/14 01:16 PM
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I do love music. I've played piano since I was 11. Didn't play for a while in my 20's but I picked it back up a couple of years ago. I'm also play a very rough guitar. Not a bad idea. I think I need something a little more social or group oriented. Thinking of a cooking class


Me 38, WAW 30
D11 (former marriage)
S2
T 8 years
M 3 years
BD 8/20/23
S 8/20/23
Card29 #2499494 10/22/14 01:20 PM
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Performance based schools also will put you together with bands (that's how my friend's son formed his) but a cooking class is a great idea too.


Me42, H40
D12, S8, S7
A revealed: 7/13
Sep 4/14; Agreed to D 1/15

She believed she could, so she did.
Maybell #2499506 10/22/14 01:45 PM
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I've been thinking of a cooking class because it would be social and useful since I'm doing all of my cooking now.


Me 38, WAW 30
D11 (former marriage)
S2
T 8 years
M 3 years
BD 8/20/23
S 8/20/23
Card29 #2499517 10/22/14 02:13 PM
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Just talked to a guy at work about my sitch. Told him about the dating thing. He said when he and his GF (now W) separated a few years back, she started dating a guy from her work. My friend said he "couldn't stand the thought of her with someone else, so I ****** a ton of girls." I thought he was going to say he regretted that, but he didn't. Said he thought it was healthy to follow the path of the other person so that you won't have resentment, since you are doing the same thing. But he knows I'm a practicing Christian, so he also said, "You can't do something you know you can't peacefully live with, though."

I do not share the opinion of needing to cheat if they cheat, am not considering the possibility of dating, and am planning on dealing with her dating IF it comes up and she wants to R someday. As you can tell, I have so far been unsuccessful to stop thinking about this, although today is better than yesterday. I did have a good evening after a major breakdown the moment I walked into my house last night. Wish I could make myself cry like that whenever I need to, but normally I just feel like the pain is stuck and won't let go.

This is an example of why I don't feel like I have someone to talk to. My family is too close, takes it personally, gets defensive of me, and doesn't really help me. I don't need to hear, "She's out of her mind", anymore. Then my work friends are too crass and bold. I don't desire to judge their actions, it's just not me. I am married and will continue to honor that until I'm not.


Me 38, WAW 30
D11 (former marriage)
S2
T 8 years
M 3 years
BD 8/20/23
S 8/20/23
Card29 #2499521 10/22/14 02:24 PM
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Card. If you don't already I really recommend finding yourself a counsellor. They are just good at listening, being neutral and reflecting back your own feelings. Mine is helping me enormously.


Both mid 30s, 2 young kids
BD 7sep14
XW moved on long ago, now living with OM1
D paperwork in progress
Card29 #2499523 10/22/14 02:30 PM
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Originally Posted By: Card29
I am married and will continue to honor that until I'm not.

Card, I say the same thing. I'm married until I'm not.

At my first IC session, she asked if I was going to have a revenge affair. Ummmm......no. When I told one of my college friends, a guy, he immediately offered me the opportunity for revenge. Ummmm....no.

One of these days it's going to be amazing. And worth the wait.



"Don't look back, you aren't going that way"
SunnyB #2499542 10/22/14 03:05 PM
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If she wants to R someday, I am willing to forgive. I see an R with OW at this point serving two functions, neither of which I need:

1. Mask pain that I have with a shallow R
2. Protect me from resentment so I'll be able to forgive

In reality, my R would be yet another hurdle for our M to overcome, which already has enough. So no thanks.


Me 38, WAW 30
D11 (former marriage)
S2
T 8 years
M 3 years
BD 8/20/23
S 8/20/23
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I just watched the TED talk by Brene Brown (The Power of Vulnerability), as recommended by Maybell. See her thread for further notes. I wanted to post this comment on my own thread because I didn't want to flood her thread with my sitch. The following comment won't make sense unless you watch the talk.

I believe I generally fall into the whole-hearted category (especially before BD...hard to judge myself right now). On the other hand, my WAW is a near 180º difference, in the shame category. She is severely depressed and needs two heavy meds to function. She has been drinking heavily (for her) since BD. She has to take a sleeping pill on Saturday nights to get at least one good night of sleep per week. She has always feared she was a bad mother. I suspect there are lots of fears and shame she hid from me and everyone else over the years. In our early years, she was vulnerable around me. She told me about her childhood problems, etc. The last few years she has put on a colder exterior.

I specifically think about her R with her mom. She used to be closer to MIL. Then MIL went through her 2nd D 3 years ago. She quickly found a new BF and devoted all of her attention to him. She has barely paid any attention to our D2 since she was born. She only lives 3 hours away and was always welcome at our house, yet she's only visited once or twice in 2 years. She never calls or texts asking about anyone anymore. I know this deeply hurt my W, but she put on a hard exterior and just reacted with mild anger and said she was "done trying with mom. she can see D2 anytime she wants, it's up to her". But I know she felt completely rejected by this.

I just pray for my W's heart. She is broken and has so much work to do on herself. I hate the thought that a person I love more than anyone is in so much pain. Maybe I'm over dramatizing it since she is in her fog and with what she told me Monday night (seemingly blaming me for all of her problems). I hope I'm exaggerating her problems. Since S it is very hard to know exactly what's going on with her, so I usually haven't thought too much about it.


Me 38, WAW 30
D11 (former marriage)
S2
T 8 years
M 3 years
BD 8/20/23
S 8/20/23
Card29 #2499637 10/22/14 07:39 PM
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I just had (hopefully) my last convo with WAW about dating. I clarified how it makes me feel as we miscommunicated before (she legitimately thought I would be okay with it before this week). She was the one that re-stated how it makes me feel and I concurred. I emphasized that I was not judging her, but it was important to me that we were at least on the same page about how I feel. I did not utter a single word trying to change her mind.

Yeah, I probably broke some DB principles, especially since I initiated, but I had a huge weight on me since the texts after the phone call Monday night that she maybe thought I was validating her desires. I feel like I can refocus on DB, detach, GAL now, and I did my best to not appear to attack, place blame, judge, beg or plead.

Feel free to congratulate me or swing a 2x4, whatever I need.


Me 38, WAW 30
D11 (former marriage)
S2
T 8 years
M 3 years
BD 8/20/23
S 8/20/23
Card29 #2499650 10/22/14 08:16 PM
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Maybe I'm not sure what the conversation was for. Were you trying to tell her not to date?


M-43 W-40
2D - 9 and 5

Emotion, yet peace.
Ignorance, yet knowledge.
Passion, yet serenity.
Chaos, yet harmony.
Death, yet a new life.

RECONCILED AND WISER
MrBond #2499660 10/22/14 08:42 PM
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I did not tell her not to date. The main point I've made with her today is how dating while married makes me feel. And that is, I would feel disrespected and it was apparent to her that I don't want her to. I didn't say those words today. I asked if she understood how I feel, and she restated exactly how I feel. I confirmed, told her I was not judging her and that I simply wanted us to be clear regarding my feelings after the apparent miscommunication over the last 2-3 months (i.e. her fog leading her to believe I was okay with her dating only because she thought I was dating already).

If she dates, she will do so knowing how I feel, and that's all I was really hoping for out of this convo. Obviously I would greatly prefer that she not date OM, but I'm not going to attempt to control that. I just didn't want dating to happen simply because she somehow that I was condoning it. If this is enough to prevent her from choosing to date, great. If she chooses to date, that is her decision and I will do my best to protect myself. And if it comes to that, I will seek vet advice here before doing anything (setting boundaries around me).


Me 38, WAW 30
D11 (former marriage)
S2
T 8 years
M 3 years
BD 8/20/23
S 8/20/23
Card29 #2499666 10/22/14 08:51 PM
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You do know that telling her that you're against her dating (very strongly) is a way of control. It's control through guilt.


M-43 W-40
2D - 9 and 5

Emotion, yet peace.
Ignorance, yet knowledge.
Passion, yet serenity.
Chaos, yet harmony.
Death, yet a new life.

RECONCILED AND WISER
MrBond #2499721 10/22/14 10:53 PM
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I thought it was okay to tell WAS how I feel. Not always true? I can see your point. She apparently thought I was okay with her dating. How should I have handled that? I felt like anything other than telling her how it would make me feel (including saying nothing) would be validating her intentions. Thanks for your input, Bond

Last edited by Card29; 10/22/14 10:54 PM.

Me 38, WAW 30
D11 (former marriage)
S2
T 8 years
M 3 years
BD 8/20/23
S 8/20/23
Card29 #2499739 10/22/14 11:43 PM
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"I thought it was okay to tell WAS how I feel. Not always true?"

Telling her how you felt is fine. Once. But you kept doing it. That's control and insecurity on your part.


M-43 W-40
2D - 9 and 5

Emotion, yet peace.
Ignorance, yet knowledge.
Passion, yet serenity.
Chaos, yet harmony.
Death, yet a new life.

RECONCILED AND WISER
MrBond #2499756 10/23/14 12:30 AM
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I see. I was hesitant to initiate the conversation today for that reason. I tried to keep it to clarification, which is why I let her tell me what she thinks I feel. But of course that couldn't happen without imposing those feelings on her again.

I should have no problem going back to not telling her how I feel. It is crystal clear to her now, and I went at least 2 full months, if not 3, without any R or feelings talk before Monday.


Me 38, WAW 30
D11 (former marriage)
S2
T 8 years
M 3 years
BD 8/20/23
S 8/20/23
Card29 #2499862 10/23/14 11:15 AM
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Card, I don't know your W or her mannerisms, but I heard the exact same thing from my W when I was in my needy stage of S.. She told me she would date if she wanted to, and it wasn't cheating or affair etc as in her eyes we weren't together any more (typical WAW script)..

Anyway, if I can give you a glimmer of hope, it has been 3 months of S for me now (close enough anyway) and W was 2000km away for 2 months of that.. Well after all of the talk about her wanting to date, AFAIK she hasn't even SPOKEN that way to any OM..

Now I'm not going to say it hasn't crossed her mind as I can't read it, but if it has then she hadn't acted on it.. Small win??.. Maybe, but I just wanted to give you that perspective..


Me:35 W:31
S6 + S9
T: 10 years M: 7 years
BD: 7/2014
S: 8/2014
W has new BF: 12/2014
Still fighting the good fight!!..
LoveMyW #2499871 10/23/14 12:13 PM
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I appreciate the perspective. I will try not to think about it either way.


Me 38, WAW 30
D11 (former marriage)
S2
T 8 years
M 3 years
BD 8/20/23
S 8/20/23
Card29 #2499875 10/23/14 12:31 PM
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My H also said he was thinking about dating. I sent him a respectful but very strongly worded email saying that I objected to that a lot, but that he was free to do as he saw fit. A few days later he told me that he felt revulsion at the idea of being in any relationship at all. Still don't know if he's doing anything, but given what I know of his schedule, I doubt it.


Me42, H40
D12, S8, S7
A revealed: 7/13
Sep 4/14; Agreed to D 1/15

She believed she could, so she did.
Maybell #2499879 10/23/14 12:58 PM
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When I objected to it in the phone call, WAW still said she was going to. Who knows, maybe she will tell me something similar in the future. Trying to let go of the rope. I am so damn lonely, though. Just miss her and miss having my D2 all of the time.

Last edited by Card29; 10/23/14 01:01 PM.

Me 38, WAW 30
D11 (former marriage)
S2
T 8 years
M 3 years
BD 8/20/23
S 8/20/23
Card29 #2499883 10/23/14 01:11 PM
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Unfortunately its not something you can do anything about once you have clearly expressed your feelings (once).

What you do have to think about is whether it makes any difference to you and your stance if she does?


Both mid 30s, 2 young kids
BD 7sep14
XW moved on long ago, now living with OM1
D paperwork in progress
Card29 #2499884 10/23/14 01:14 PM
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I've been thinking more about the Brene Brown talk. I do not think I am whole-hearted now. I had some shame before BD (especially about porn) that kept me from connecting to my W. I slept on the couch every night that I viewed it, and that led to a continuous habit of sleeping on the couch. So I had that shame and disconnect while we were together.

But for the first time, I really do feel unworthy of love. It's partially my regret, and partially the rejection by my W and best friend. It has cut me in half as a person. Sometimes I even have trouble connecting with my D2 now. In my brain, I know that I made mistakes but her leaving me is more a symptom of her. She told me Monday that "I still love you" (in context, she meant "as a person" or whatever). There isn't a single person on her side or mine judging me for my failure as a H. Everyone tells me I deserve to be loved. But all of the words and books in the world are outweighed by the actions of WAW. We were really the only close friend either one of us had (we had a friend exodus a couple of years ago...all of our best friends from our church dispersed across the country to plant churches).

Maybe it's just this phase after the "2nd BD" I got earlier this week. I was feeling great for the last couple of weeks before that, and was having a ball with D2. I am definitely handling this BD better than I did with the original one in June/July. I'm sleeping decently, I have an appetite, and I'm not miserable ALL of the time (maybe 80%) like I was over that month in the summer. So I'm hoping I adjust quickly and really let go of the rope. I have been DBing decently, I thought, but after Wonka gave me the explanation for what "drop the rope" really meant (letting go of the rope that's attached to WAS so that their actions have no effect on me), I realized that I still was emotionally tied to what she was doing. Of course I will be hurt if I someday find out about OM, but in the meantime, I don't have to fear the possibility if I can truly let go.

But that's easier said than done.

I really wish I could walk this journey with some of you in real life (not that this message board isn't real...you know what I mean). I love my family and all, but you guys say what I really need to hear. Wish we could GAL together! I understand why this place needs to be anonymous, though.

Last edited by Card29; 10/23/14 01:23 PM.

Me 38, WAW 30
D11 (former marriage)
S2
T 8 years
M 3 years
BD 8/20/23
S 8/20/23
Card29 #2499907 10/23/14 02:45 PM
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Feel for you. Its emotionally hard.

You'll be alright and stronger for it.


Both mid 30s, 2 young kids
BD 7sep14
XW moved on long ago, now living with OM1
D paperwork in progress
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I just cancelled the PI. He said I can "turn the case back on" anytime I want, but I have no plans to do that. Can't really imagine a scenario when I would do that. Rope slipping a little more out of my hand.


Me 38, WAW 30
D11 (former marriage)
S2
T 8 years
M 3 years
BD 8/20/23
S 8/20/23
Card29 #2499911 10/23/14 02:54 PM
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Hey Card, been reading up on your sitch. Just hang in there. It isn't over until its over. Keep fighting the good fight. If you think your W and M is worth it, then you know what you will need to do. Work on yourself, build up your self-esteem so that you can be confident that no matter what happens, you will be fine.

I'm trying really hard to do this in my own sitch but like you said, its tough. Easier said than done. You just have to believe in yourself and feel good that dropping the rope will help you heal.


Me:31 W:28
No Kids
T:14 M:8
BD:09/24/14
Separation 09/25/14
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Thanks, friend. I am trying to protect myself, improve myself, and do the best things I can do for our M (which is frequently the opposite of what I want to do these days).

I'm about to head out for the weekend, visiting in-laws (ironically) and my cousin. My cousin is a pro rodeo announcer and I've never seen him announce (nor have I been to a rodeo). D2 is going win me. Should be interesting!


Me 38, WAW 30
D11 (former marriage)
S2
T 8 years
M 3 years
BD 8/20/23
S 8/20/23
Card29 #2500007 10/23/14 07:40 PM
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sounds like some good GAL. praying for you bro. i can empathize with the seeming waves of pain and dsepondancy. just know you have a lot of folks in your corner!!


M40 XW35
M11 T15
S9 D5
Bomb 6/3/14
Papers del 10/3/14
D final 12/5/14

I wish I could love you and make you believe it
'Cause that's all you ever wanted
From me

bravo61 #2500068 10/23/14 10:13 PM
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"I should have no problem going back to not telling her how I feel."

That's not the point. Telling her how you feel is okay to a degree. But if it's done in the context of trying to influence her decisions, then it won't help.


M-43 W-40
2D - 9 and 5

Emotion, yet peace.
Ignorance, yet knowledge.
Passion, yet serenity.
Chaos, yet harmony.
Death, yet a new life.

RECONCILED AND WISER
MrBond #2500145 10/24/14 02:57 AM
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Bond I learn something new every time you comment. I think I took the Beginner's Mind chapter too literally :P


Me 38, WAW 30
D11 (former marriage)
S2
T 8 years
M 3 years
BD 8/20/23
S 8/20/23
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4 hr drive with D2 went about as well as I could hope. Had dinner with SIL, BIL, MIL, SIL's S10 and MIL's BF. I love these people and they love me. Really hope they're my family for life. I guess they always will be to some extent, but it would certainly be different. Anyway, I have an excuse to sleep with D2 (we're strict about keeping her in her bed, but we're staying with SIL/BIL, so we're sleeping in the only spare bed together), I had a great night with in-laws, I don't have to wake up early tomorrow (please sleep in, D2....), so I am very happy at the moment smile

Such a relief from the misery earlier this week.


Me 38, WAW 30
D11 (former marriage)
S2
T 8 years
M 3 years
BD 8/20/23
S 8/20/23
Card29 #2500160 10/24/14 04:33 AM
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The loss of extended families is a concern of mine as well.
Stay strong.


Me 47 - W 35
M 9 - T 10
2 Daughters - 7 & 9
Discovery of EA- 8/4/14
S - 8/5/15
D mentioned - 9/11/14
R & Piecing - 3/17/15
Regard one another as more important than yourselves.
- Philippians 2:3
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Sometimes I hate how my memory and mind works. I used to love coming to my W's hometown. It is a small town about 3 hours from our home, which is in a city of about 1,000,000. We met at the university there. Most people from her hometown either don't go to college, or they go to the regional college about 30 minutes away. No one understood why she would leave their cozy little region to go to the "big city".

I've always loved thinking about how unlikely it was that she left this place and met me. Yeah, I know, the odds of me meeting and falling in love with any specific person are very low. But that's how my mind likes to reminisce and savor things. When is come to her hometown, I would see her high school, house and the department store where she had her first job and think, "that's where she was just before she met me". I treasured those places because one of them is probably where she was when she decided she would go to our school. This trip, however, it's been painful to see those same places. Now I cant help but think that I hadn't screwed up with her yet when she was there.

Yes, I know this is the dumbest, sappiest thing you'll read all day, but that's how my mind works and wanted to let it out. It's not something I can say to someone out loud, in person lol. I'm hoping that writing these things down will take away the sting. Because really, why do I care about the dept store she worked at when she was 17, whether we are happily M'd or not?

Other than that, today was decent. Had a sweet nap with D2, laying in bed again with her now. And the rodeo was really awesome! My cousin is supremely talented, so entertaining. Nonstop action in the ring, too. I thought D2 would only last 20 minutes and then would need to leave. She had a blast the entire time! No time to be worried about WAW!


Me 38, WAW 30
D11 (former marriage)
S2
T 8 years
M 3 years
BD 8/20/23
S 8/20/23
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Nope, not dumbest, sappiest thing I've read - I do it too!


H 37 Me 36
Together 15 years
Married 5 years
No kids
BD Apr 2014
H moved out 2 Jun 2014
gan #2500557 10/25/14 11:45 AM
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It's OK Card. That is normal. My head is chock full of that stuff too.


Me 47 - W 35
M 9 - T 10
2 Daughters - 7 & 9
Discovery of EA- 8/4/14
S - 8/5/15
D mentioned - 9/11/14
R & Piecing - 3/17/15
Regard one another as more important than yourselves.
- Philippians 2:3
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Struggling again today. Just me and D2 alone in SIL's house until this afternoon. No adult interaction until later this evening when we go to day 2 of rodeo. I really bought in to the hopelessness that she displayed on the phone call. I know there is nothing that someone else could provide for her emotionally that I couldnt. I know this, but right now I don't believe it and am seeing/feeling her hopeless point of view of our M.

Fighting to regain my hope, though. She's in her fog. Don't believe anything I hear and half of what I see. She is speaking with absolute negativity. (Speech to self)


Me 38, WAW 30
D11 (former marriage)
S2
T 8 years
M 3 years
BD 8/20/23
S 8/20/23
Card29 #2500636 10/25/14 05:28 PM
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Fifty jumping jacks and ten laps around the backyard. Report back when you're done. smile


Me42, H40
D12, S8, S7
A revealed: 7/13
Sep 4/14; Agreed to D 1/15

She believed she could, so she did.
Maybell #2500637 10/25/14 05:32 PM
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^^^LOL. That'll cure what ails ya.


Me 47 - W 35
M 9 - T 10
2 Daughters - 7 & 9
Discovery of EA- 8/4/14
S - 8/5/15
D mentioned - 9/11/14
R & Piecing - 3/17/15
Regard one another as more important than yourselves.
- Philippians 2:3
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Originally Posted By: Maybell
Fifty jumping jacks and ten laps around the backyard. Report back when you're done. smile
yeah, I haven't exercised since the phone call 6 days ago...that can't be helping anything. Alright, I just laid down D2 for her nap. She's in a new room, so I'll give her 15 minutes to make sure she's settled, then I'll get some yard sprints in. Will report back


Me 38, WAW 30
D11 (former marriage)
S2
T 8 years
M 3 years
BD 8/20/23
S 8/20/23
Card29 #2500644 10/25/14 07:04 PM
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Well I'm panting and sweating (didn't bring workout clothes, had to run in jeans and its 80 degrees today). Definitely not mopey right now. Hopefully this feeling will last until the rodeo later. Once I get back home, it's back to the gym and the trails/road


Me 38, WAW 30
D11 (former marriage)
S2
T 8 years
M 3 years
BD 8/20/23
S 8/20/23
Card29 #2500647 10/25/14 07:10 PM
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Good job.


Me 47 - W 35
M 9 - T 10
2 Daughters - 7 & 9
Discovery of EA- 8/4/14
S - 8/5/15
D mentioned - 9/11/14
R & Piecing - 3/17/15
Regard one another as more important than yourselves.
- Philippians 2:3
Jefe #2500749 10/26/14 03:38 AM
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I had fun at the rodeo. My family is crazy and kept me more entertained than the rodeo. That said, I am living in hell thinking about WAW. Right before she dropped the "dating others" bomb on me, she told me she'd be at a costume party tonight. So of course all I can think about is her and possible OM right now. Until I learn how to deal with this, I hope I never know of a social plan of hers again while she is "on the prowl" or whatever the hell she is doing.

Last edited by Card29; 10/26/14 03:38 AM.

Me 38, WAW 30
D11 (former marriage)
S2
T 8 years
M 3 years
BD 8/20/23
S 8/20/23
Card29 #2500908 10/26/14 10:22 PM
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Well I've been overwhelming miserable for a week now. But better PMA today. It helps being back home. Had a fun afternoon with D2. Trying to drop the rope but it's stuck to my hands. I try to let my emotions flow when I'm down, but they are stuck in there until it is almost unbearable before I can cry and let it out.


Me 38, WAW 30
D11 (former marriage)
S2
T 8 years
M 3 years
BD 8/20/23
S 8/20/23
Card29 #2500910 10/26/14 10:23 PM
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yeah, me too.


Me42, H40
D12, S8, S7
A revealed: 7/13
Sep 4/14; Agreed to D 1/15

She believed she could, so she did.
Maybell #2500954 10/27/14 01:08 AM
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Stop it, you're going to make me cry, now.


Me 47 - W 35
M 9 - T 10
2 Daughters - 7 & 9
Discovery of EA- 8/4/14
S - 8/5/15
D mentioned - 9/11/14
R & Piecing - 3/17/15
Regard one another as more important than yourselves.
- Philippians 2:3
Jefe #2500955 10/27/14 01:09 AM
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I'm all better. Card, how're ya doin'?

Last edited by Maybell; 10/27/14 01:10 AM.

Me42, H40
D12, S8, S7
A revealed: 7/13
Sep 4/14; Agreed to D 1/15

She believed she could, so she did.
Maybell #2500997 10/27/14 02:52 AM
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(Sorry for the novel...train of thought that I have no other outlet for at the moment)

Maybell I'm glad you're doing better. I'm okay right now. Had a fantastic dinner (Mahi mahi and a leftover acovado, black bean salsa that WAW made...maybe the best salsa I've ever had). Also just practiced my latest hobby: baking cookies. I'd never done that until a couple of weeks ago and have been perfecting a chocolate chip recipe (I only eat a couple then take the rest to work). It's comforting to do it, and the house smells very cozy.

Dropped off D2 at WAW's tonight. She asked me to stay so she could hear about the weekend. She wanted to know what was said between MIL/SIL and me. There really wasn't anything to hide. MIL didn't ask any questions. SIL didn't but we talked about things a little bit. I told them there was nothing new going on (obviously didn't mention the dating conversation). So I told WAW that it was all normal, nothing really interesting said. She already knows they're on my "side", although I am not playing politics with anyone.

I was feeling really good. I put D2 down to bed there and prayed with her (she thanked God for "the moon and the stars and ni-night time"). But then WAW and I talked about the logistics of splitting finances. Nothing surprising, but I'm never excited to talk about anything related to the death (coma?) of our M. I tried to be positive and helpful.

I also practiced the latest 180 I identified for myself: intently listening. I printed and laminated a custom version of Sandi's 37. All rules I follow well are in green text. Anything I needed to work on is in red. Anything motivational is in blue. Rule 25 is in red...listen closely, make eye contact, don't interrupt, etc. I thought about that rule the entire time at her apt. I'm trying to practice this everywhere, though...work, friends, even on these boards. Trying not to formulate an opinion or thought too hastily.

She told me a little about the costume party she went to. Said that there weren't many people there. I feel dumb for feeling slightly happy about that. My mind-reading, rope-holding self was going crazy last night trying not to wonder if she was meeting a guy at the party. I freely admit my failure to detach lately. Feel a little better about it tonight. She did text me a picture of her in her costume today, which was the first non-D2 picture she's texted me since BD/S. I'm not reading into it at all, especially since I requested it on Friday. I was just happy to see her dressed up and having fun. It was a Peter Pan party and she was Wendy. I'm hoping she doesn't tell me about her social plans for a while until I have truly dropped the rope, though. Lots of ridiculous worrying over what was probably some eating, drinking and sitting around talking to her friends. And even if she was meeting someone, thinking about it anymore than I have to will be that much hell I put myself through unnecessarily.

Long way to go but I'm hoping for a good night's sleep to start the new week. I've been waking up at 2am, unable to go back to sleep, since phone call 1 week ago.

One other interesting/sad note from the trip to her hometown...MIL's latest ex-H is still a mess, 3 years after their D. He has not let go at all. I talked to him last year at thanksgiving and he broke down crying about MIL. I couldn't believe he was still that attached. He hadn't talked to her in 2 years at that point. Apparently he is no better today. He lives really close to SIL, and SIL says he randomly shows up at her house every few weeks and asks if MIL regrets leaving him, cries in her driveway, etc. I really feel bad for him and want to go into my own pocket for therapy. Lord does he need it. But it also makes me feel confident that that will NOT be me. I'm not that much of a mess as it is, and I'm in the middle of the crisis. Thank God for DB, although I hope I wouldn't be that messed up even if I did this completely on my own.


Me 38, WAW 30
D11 (former marriage)
S2
T 8 years
M 3 years
BD 8/20/23
S 8/20/23
Card29 #2501005 10/27/14 03:29 AM
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Great story about the grieving divorcee. If there's ever proof that DBin is for us there it is. That won't be me either. I posted a comment on another thread about a guy I know that started dating again immediately after his wife left him. Didn't work out well, and now he feels terrible and is mad at himself.

I guess I'm lucky. My STBX was very open about bein with other guys, renewing her birth control, etc. at least my imagination doesn't haunt me. Honestly I'm not threatened. Not saying she won't find a guy and end up in a better LTR, any things possible. But I just know I'll take care of me and it will be ok. I didn't say I'd get the outcome I desired. Just that I have learned life isn't about getting what you want, it's about wanting what you get.


Me:38 XW:38
T:11 years M:8 years
Kids: S14, D11, D7
BD/Move out day: 6/17/14, D final Dec 15
Zues126 #2501011 10/27/14 04:27 AM
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Great points, Zues. I'm sorry to hear your STBX is openly pursuing others as well. I hope to handle it as healthy as you someday soon. There really is nothing I can do for her right now, so I shouldnt think about it as much. I'm at least trying to be positive and make lasting changes in life that were long overdue. Maybe if she looks, she will get hope for our M.

I saved part of your last comment on Maybell's thread. WAW has a ton of work to do on herself, and has some serious soul-searching to do, before we could potentially have a successful M again. If she can hide all of her pain until she rips our family apart without warning, that is a sign of seriously bad mental health. She is severely depressed and I credit her for trying to fight out of that. She is seeing a therapist and is regularly taking meds. Hopefully she "comes up to me" to work with me someday. For now I am comfortable to be patient and give her space and time to work on herself.


Me 38, WAW 30
D11 (former marriage)
S2
T 8 years
M 3 years
BD 8/20/23
S 8/20/23
Card29 #2501065 10/27/14 01:16 PM
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Went to bed happy and mildly detached, but woke up with a knot in my stomach. Hasn't went away yet. Haven't had to deal with nausea due to the sitch since July. I really want to get back to my late Sept /early Oct mentality of:

- Patient to wait, work on myself and find independent happiness
- Hopeful, without expectation, that our M can be restored
- Confident that I will be okay if it is not

Right now, my grades on those three categories are probably:

- C
- B-
- D+


Me 38, WAW 30
D11 (former marriage)
S2
T 8 years
M 3 years
BD 8/20/23
S 8/20/23
Card29 #2501071 10/27/14 01:32 PM
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You should be grading yourself on a curve. Given the time you've had to get accustomed to this situation, re-evaluate.


Me42, H40
D12, S8, S7
A revealed: 7/13
Sep 4/14; Agreed to D 1/15

She believed she could, so she did.
Card29 #2501073 10/27/14 01:40 PM
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I'm also struggling with a thought that I wish I'd had during our R talk 1 week ago. She told me in July and she told me last week that she "had no idea I even loved her" before BD. I have felt terrible for not showing her. But I re-read 5LL's and realized that I was showing her, just not in a language that she hears. I thought I was being the perfect H (based on what my dad did wrong when I was growing up). Once she started school, I stayed home every single night after work and all day every weekend, taking care of D1 (at the time), dogs, house, meals. I didn't play golf, I didn't go to basketball games, I didn't hang out with friends. I was 100% domestic support. I thought all women would have loved this, but she wasn't fulfilled with that. I don't feel slighted by that, because I love acting like a SAHD. But I was unaware that LL's or EN's existed as distinctly as they do, and I was also unaware that she was not being fulfilled by that.

I'm just writing this down so that if the topic comes up again, I will hopefully remember to say a more succinct version of this. Maybe: "I was showing you love by taking care of everything at home while you got through school. I was not aware that that wasn't fulfilling you emotionally, and it's okay that it wasn't. There are others ways for that to happen which I'm willing to learn."


Me 38, WAW 30
D11 (former marriage)
S2
T 8 years
M 3 years
BD 8/20/23
S 8/20/23
Card29 #2501172 10/27/14 07:12 PM
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Quote:
What I'm more interested in from people on this board is a grade of my DB skills in this convo.


My question about your conversation is....if she is wanting to date others, why are you reassuring her that dating is the last thing on your mind? I mean, that's the perfect setup for a WAW, having the freedom to date while the LBH waits around faithfully.


It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
sandi2 #2501222 10/27/14 09:10 PM
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card,
i'm with you in regards to the LL. i didn't speak in my W language (words of affirmation) but mine (gifts). [censored] that we learn this stuff so late. we deserve the Grace from our spouses to learn from our mistakes! prayin for ya! don't give up hope. a miracle can still happen for you. be glad that you haven't got the papers yet. you can do it. you are in the business of fixing this and business can be good!


M40 XW35
M11 T15
S9 D5
Bomb 6/3/14
Papers del 10/3/14
D final 12/5/14

I wish I could love you and make you believe it
'Cause that's all you ever wanted
From me

bravo61 #2501229 10/27/14 09:28 PM
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Hey Card and Zues, just wanted to chime in on the WAS openly dating. What fun for us! I am in the same situation. I will say one thing, although my WAH is openly dating he did say the grass is not greener. He admitted it! (not to me but to a mutual friend) I think it is hard to find someone to replace us, ESPECIALLY if we improve ourselves.

I also love what Sandi said above. But I struggle with how to work it.

LisaB #2501272 10/27/14 11:25 PM
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The point I want to make with all who are LBS is that when you have a spouse who has walked away from you.......they are not asking or wanting your assurance of faithfulness or unconditional love. Unless it was YOUR unfaithfulness that happens to be the issue......then why on earth make a to-do about it to her? In most cases, it is the WAS unfaithfulness that has become an issue.......not the LBS. (The majority of WAS's are wayward spouses.....and IMO, sets them apart from the stereo image of what most of us have about a WAS. Perhaps another subject at another time.). It has become an issue that the WAS no longer feels in love or sexually attracted..........not the LBS. You are trying to prove something to them that they don't want or no longer care about. The only sliver of caring is when they don't want to see you interested in somebody else. They don't want you.....but they don't want anyone else to have, either. So now you're going to assure them they have nothing to worry about? Or.....they want their freedom but have family time at their convenience, too. But the LBS gets this all mixed up with their own neediness and thinks the WAS is showing some kind of "sign" or baby steps. Nothing could be further from the truth. Oh, and let's not forget my favorite one.........how the LBS thinks being the WAS's best friend will win them back. When the LBS is the man, I see very little chance with that move. There could be a little more leverage if the WAS is male.......b/c of how the two sexes are wired (and I don't mean sexually). But it all come down to the same cake eating. As long as they can eat cake, why should anything change? They get the best of both worlds. What could be better?

The WAS usually has to experience some type of "loss" that shakes them to their very core before they reverse their direction and start coming out of the fog or their waywardness. As long as the LBS is reassuring the WAS that they have lost nothing and will lose nothing regardless of their actions.......why on earth do you think they would change their minds? B/c they love you? Nope! B/c you love them? Hell no! B/c you are so good and faithful? Again, no! So stop with all the proclaiming and professing.......b/c in the eyes of the WAS, it just makes you look foolish. Frankly, they become even less interested and feel more turned off than ever.

The WAS should be concerned that they could be replaced and you will find somebody else. They should be concerned that their terrible actions has killed your love. They should be womdering what you are going to do! They should miss out on family times. They should get a taste of life without you. Isn't that what they wanted? They should not get to keep your friendship. Being a BFF is not a consolation prize.

Most of the posts I have read over the years clearly show the LBS has no clue as to how the WAS thinks. It is usually completely opposite from what the LBS thinks it is. They don't walk away (emotionally or physically) b/c they want you to prove your love, do more domestic chores, help with the kids more, or like their family better, whatever. Those things may have been an issue at some time during the M, but let me make this clear.........the actions it once would have taken for you to get the MR back on track won't work at this point. Why? B/c now it's complicated. You are no longer M to the same person. They have changed. They think differently, and more importantly, they see YOU differently.....and it ain't good. So what you might have done during the time they "wanted" it ......won't work now. They no longer want it. They no longer care.

One last word, the WAS doesn't want to hear any of it. That's why talking doesn't work at this time. None of it works until they are remorseful for their waywardness, and willing & ready to commit to the M and do whatever necessary to succeed. Then when piecing begins, you can have the R talks and do all these other things you thought would work, and didn't. It is all about timing. Doing what works is all about the timing.


It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
sandi2 #2501274 10/27/14 11:34 PM
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Thanks, Sandi, I needed that. I had started to forget my mission.


Me42, H40
D12, S8, S7
A revealed: 7/13
Sep 4/14; Agreed to D 1/15

She believed she could, so she did.
Maybell #2501278 10/27/14 11:48 PM
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I think that is the most amazing post I have ever read on here. Thank you Sandi!

LisaB #2501281 10/28/14 12:08 AM
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Awesome post Sandi, and I wish I'd seen it about an hour ago. So the nausea I felt this morning that I thought was anxiety about WAS? Food poisoning. Been in bed since noon. WAW graciously brought a great anti-nausea pill over about 1/2 hour ago. I didn't ask her to, but I accepted the invite (I really wanted those pills...). All would have been fine, but I told her she is a really good friend. After reading this....WHOOPS. I will learn from it.

I'm with Lisa's post...I now understand why it's important to do this, but I don't know how to make it work. Obviously I'm not actually going to date. Apparently I was keeping her on her toes with mysterious behavior, but I squashed it by directly saying "of course Im not dating" and "I feel it's very disrespectful to date others while M". At this point, I feel like I would be a hypocrite if I hinted that I was dating or thinking about it. If the next R talk happens, should I just say that she is going to lose a very good H? That doesn't seem to jive with what you just said, Sandi. I think I'm a smart guy but I have not been too sharp when it comes to what to say to WAW. You're right, LBS's DON'T know what they're thinking.

She is definitely friendzoning me. Maybe I could play off of the biggest fear she told me about right after BD: that we would be like her parents, unwilling to be around each other. How would I do that?

Btw, she did get to see a hard side of me not being there tonight. D2 found out I was sick and has been crying hysterically ever since


Me 38, WAW 30
D11 (former marriage)
S2
T 8 years
M 3 years
BD 8/20/23
S 8/20/23
Card29 #2501282 10/28/14 12:13 AM
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Just don't engage in R talk. If she tries to start one just politely say "I'm not prepared to have this conversation right now."

And feel better. Food poisoning, yikes!

Last edited by Maybell; 10/28/14 12:14 AM.

Me42, H40
D12, S8, S7
A revealed: 7/13
Sep 4/14; Agreed to D 1/15

She believed she could, so she did.
Card29 #2501285 10/28/14 12:17 AM
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She also has outwardly encouraged me to date on a couple of occasions. I wonder if she is trying to remove some of the blame of the S from herself and put it on me? At BD, she asked "do you want me to move out?" A few days later she told me she intended to, so I think the first question was an attempt to make the S my idea.

Maybe it's time for boundaries? I have been extremely flexible with her. We have two dogs that I have had 95% of the time since S. She gets them for a day or two when her schedule is open and she feels like it. Maybe I need to say we need to split the dogs equally and give her a taste of the daily struggle to walk them multiple times, feed them, clean them.

I am just struggling with what to do next after I've made it clear how I feel about dating during M and the fact that she has encouraged it. Maybe I just need to be more mysterious again. That worked before. I also left a bit of mystery in one of our "dating" convos when I said "no I'm not dating but I don't think I'd tell if you if I was"


Me 38, WAW 30
D11 (former marriage)
S2
T 8 years
M 3 years
BD 8/20/23
S 8/20/23
Card29 #2501289 10/28/14 12:50 AM
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Hey Card, feel better! Yuck!

I say don't worry too much about the dating question at this point. Just go mysterious and if it ever comes up again use Maybell's line, that is perfect. It is basically what I said to my WAH when he asked if I was dating (he is openly) "I don't want to talk about my dating, I don't think it is something we need to discuss." So he assumes I am dating but I never said I was or wasn't. If he will admit to being upset that I am dating then maybe we could have a talk and take it from there. But he won't admit he doesn't like it because he wants to date!

Sandi's post was so spot on for me. I've been thinking about it for an hour. And dammit I wish I saw it this morning before I went to lunch with WAH and we made weekend plans and I was very friendly with him! Now figuring out how to use this as an opportunity to be more mysterious...

Card, that is the key. Exactly what Sandi says is SO TRUE. The WAS doesn't feel the same way, they see us as completely uninteresting and unattractive. Like a friend, but worse, a sometimes irritating friend who gets needy and emotional and makes them feel guilty. haha. We have to do our best to shake them out of their fog of indifference and also have the patience to simply wait it out while being super independent.

On that note, I would say you should think about making the dogs more a responsibility for your W. Don't do it just to piss her off but think about what is fair. If it is fair that she shares responsibility then discuss it with her. or if you don't mind the status quo with the dogs then just deal with it for now.

As a man it is important that you seem confident and strong to your WAW. Don't be a jerk but don't be weak either.

Feel better! Hugs, Lisa

LisaB #2501311 10/28/14 02:23 AM
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Card, the bad news is the good news. This is a long road. You don't need to (nor can you) undo what was just done. By learning the lessons, however, you can show her with you actions and behavior for the next 3-6 months. I know it stings to be reminded of the timelines, but after a few months pass what you told her this week will be ancient history.

I did the same thing. My STBX was asking about if I was dating and why I was acting so different. I told her I wasn't dating at this time as I was trying to avoid self medicating, and that I was jus trying to do better.

But then I made the mistake of telling my sister more. I told her my stance on marriage, working on myself, and that I didn't believe in dating for a long time after the D. Problem is that my sister has turned into good friends with my STBX. Found out they talk an hour a day, text all day long. So I'm sure all of that got back to my STBX. But that was a month ago, since then I've been more careful. My 'mystery' combined with my actions today (filing separation) may start the process of letting her wonder. Or it may take months or not happen. I don't care anymore, I'm just not going to reassure her of anything again on principal. Besides, while I don't intend to date, who knows what the future holds.

Ps- sorry to hijack, but ill mention I'm put off with my sister becoming bffs with my STBX. It's one thing to remain a friend, it's another to get that close, particularly when the dust hasn't settled and she is in the middle of a family being torn apart. I almost feel my sister is codependent and playing the 'rescuer' role. The fact is that if she were a brother and got that close with her...I wouldn't have a brother anymore most likely. And though there's clearly no PA as she's another woman, the emotional intimacy they share feels like a betrayal. I'm not going to end a relationship with my sister over it and accept I can't control her decisions or action. But I WILL be setting strong boundaries like not telling her anything I wouldn't say in front of my STBX. Considering where I'm at in my life that means very casual contact only until she either detached from my STBX or enough time has past that were all remarried and I don't care anymore.


Me:38 XW:38
T:11 years M:8 years
Kids: S14, D11, D7
BD/Move out day: 6/17/14, D final Dec 15
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She also has outwardly encouraged me to date on a couple of occasions. I wonder if she is trying to remove some of the blame of the S from herself and put it on me? At BD, she asked "do you want me to move out?" A few days later she told me she intended to, so I think the first question was an attempt to make the S my idea.


Believe none of what the sat and only half of what they do.

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Maybe it's time for boundaries? I have been extremely flexible with her


Boundaries are essential, but you must full understand how it works.i


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We have two dogs that I have had 95% of the time since S. She gets them for a day or two when her schedule is open and she feels like it. Maybe I need to say we need to split the dogs equally and give her a taste of the daily struggle to walk them multiple times, feed them, clean them
.

Decide if you want to split the dogs. And do it. If you want joint custody, you are opening the door for more agrifation, You would have to have a schedules for the dogs, think it over thoroughly.

It best not to make decisions with certain life lessons in store for her. She will perceive it as being punitive from you. Just honestly work out what you want and be fair about it.


It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
sandi2 #2501327 10/28/14 03:23 AM
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Originally Posted By: sandi2
the actions it once would have taken for you to get the MR back on track won't work at this point. Why? B/c now it's complicated. You are no longer M to the same person. They have changed. They think differently, and more importantly, they see YOU differently.....and it ain't good.
Here's how I explain it to myself. In a R, if your spouse tells you "I love you", it reinforces the R. On the other hand, if a colleague tells you the same thing, you'll be put off and run away. When our WAS announces his/her decision to leave, we go from spouse to colleague. It turns everything on its head.


M39 D6 D3 (at S)
S 2014-09
D 2016-09

"You can't start a fire sitting around, crying over a broken heart" - Bruce Springsteen.
Mozza #2501480 10/28/14 03:37 PM
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Well I'm over the food poisoning or stomach virus, whatever it was.

Originally Posted By: sandi2
Boundaries are essential, but you must fully understand how it works.
Are there any good resources/threads to check out to get a good understanding of boundaries? I basically don't want to pretend like everything is okay if she is dating. I used to think that if it got to this point, I would need to go complete NC for my own sake, but I don't feel that way now.

I'm going to need to read that post from you, sandi, everyday for a while. I guess I'm confused because in DR, there is a specific example of a R'd M where the LBS was a friend to WAW while she was having an A.

I have also seen reports lately from DB Coach phone calls where they said you have to be friendly at some point. I guess there is a difference between being friendly and being "best friends"?

How about this for some potentially mysterious behavior...I have been going to a group salsa dance class (beginner level) for the last 2 months. I've been thinking of hosting a salsa dance party at my house with regulars from the class, and maybe even inviting the instructors. Post a few pictures to FB?


Me 38, WAW 30
D11 (former marriage)
S2
T 8 years
M 3 years
BD 8/20/23
S 8/20/23
Card29 #2501650 10/28/14 08:17 PM
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Quote:
Are there any good resources/threads to check out to get a good understanding of boundaries?


Yes, but I will have to search for it. If I find the one I'm, thinking about, I'll post the link.

Quote:
I'm going to need to read that post from you, sandi, everyday for a while. I guess I'm confused because in DR, there is a specific example of a R'd M where the LBS was a friend to WAW while she was having an A.


If it is the one among those letters Michele received, I can only tell you this......I have never seen another one anywhere except that particular one in her book. I think it has probably done more damage to male masculinity and dignity in M's than about anything I can think of at the moment, but I'm sure that's just my own personal opinion. Needless to say, I feel very strongly about this. I have been here for seven years and you can look at the amount of posts by my name and get some small idea of how many I have read that I never replied to......and never among those thousands of posts have I found another such case where the LBH was the best friend to the WAW who was in an A, and them ending with a successful M. For one thing, she cannot respect him! He is going to be her bosom friend while she betrays him? Who does that to friends? Or who wants to be a friend to someone who would treat them that way? No, she won't respect a man like that! So, I'm sorry if I come across too strong, but I do not agree with it and wish with all my heart Michele had never included it. But hey, if you don't think anymore of yourself than to be her buddy while she openly disrespects you.....I can't stop you. But be warned that it is a trap you are laying for yourself. You have already compromised your own standards by allowing what you thought you would never stand for, right? If you don't know where to draw the line, then you will eventually question everything and find excuses......just to hang on to her. I hope she is worth your dignity, b/c that's what you'll be giving up.

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I have also seen reports lately from DB Coach phone calls where they said you have to be friendly at some point. I guess there is a difference between being friendly and being "best friends"?


I never said you couldn't conduct yourself in a friend-ly manner. Yes, of course there is a difference. Being best friends is a relationship, but you can speak in a friendly manner to a stranger. And yes, at some point things have to change in order to reconcile the M. But as long as she is wanting to date other men while she's M to you, you aren't at that point!


It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
sandi2 #2501667 10/28/14 08:40 PM
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Thanks for clarifying. I really need to meditate on these things because I think she lacked respect for me already, before BD. I would love it if you can find the boundary information. I really want to establish some kind of boundary, but I'm not sure where to establish it, or how (directly in an e-mail/face-to-face/text or just by my actions).

These boards are incredibly helpful but for someone like me going through the biggest crisis of their life, the swirling opinions and advice can sometimes create chaos inside of my head.


Me 38, WAW 30
D11 (former marriage)
S2
T 8 years
M 3 years
BD 8/20/23
S 8/20/23
Card29 #2501689 10/28/14 09:38 PM
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If this will get Starsky's attention, maybe he will help me find Coach's thread on boundaries. I have lost my bookmarks and I can't seem to find the thread I wanted to pass along. I think he will know the one.

I understand about your emotional stress and how all of this can be confusing. I am here to pay forward, hopefully, the help I received when I first arrived. Even though I come from the other side of the fence, I have learned so much from the LBS who reside in DB community. It takes all of us sharing and learning together. This board helped me have the strength to stay in my M when I wanted to run away. I believe it can help you in your stitch.


It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
sandi2 #2501691 10/28/14 09:46 PM
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Me42, H40
D12, S8, S7
A revealed: 7/13
Sep 4/14; Agreed to D 1/15

She believed she could, so she did.
Maybell #2501712 10/28/14 10:26 PM
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Thanks, Maybell. Great stuff there. Ugh I am so conflicted. I really need to think about what to do before I make any moves. Just now, WAW offered a FaceTime (Skype) with her and D2, presumably because D2 was upset about me being sick yesterday. I can't accept it right now, because I'm out of the house due to a showing and I need wifi to FaceTime. But I don't think I would want to exclude things like that with a boundary because it is for D2.

I just need to think and not rush this.


Me 38, WAW 30
D11 (former marriage)
S2
T 8 years
M 3 years
BD 8/20/23
S 8/20/23
Card29 #2501737 10/28/14 11:55 PM
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Yes, thanks Maybell.

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But I don't think I would want to exclude things like that with a boundary because it is for D2.


No, you don't want to do that. You've had to digest a lot today. Don't make any sudden decisions about anything that you don't fully understand. Give yourself some time to think about the things that are the absolute most important.. What in life can you not live without? What in life would you never tolerate?

This is not for us to know, but for you to decide for yourself. Think about how your W's behavior/actions fit into all of it. If she dishonors or breaks one or more of your boundaries.........what will you do? Remember, these are not ultimatums. This is not to threaten or control her. The only control you have is your own action/behavior in response to hers.

Once you know for certain where you stand and what you are prepared to do, you will be more ready to make your boundaries known to her, if need be. Not that you have to go around crowing about all your boundaries all of a sudden (like I've seen some do), but if you need to make a statement about it, you will feel better prepared.


It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
sandi2 #2501739 10/29/14 12:01 AM
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Card,

You might want to check in Train's thread over in the Infidelity forum for the Cliff Notes version on how to set boundaries and enforce them.

You've got this, buddy!!!

Wonka #2501757 10/29/14 01:02 AM
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Thanks for the support everyone. It means so much. I will take my time, pray and think about this. I will check out Train's thread, as well. No hasty decisions.


Me 38, WAW 30
D11 (former marriage)
S2
T 8 years
M 3 years
BD 8/20/23
S 8/20/23
Card29 #2501761 10/29/14 01:15 AM
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Card, GoatGal posted this on my thread a few days ago, I think it might be helpful. PeterV2 said he did something similar when his XW was ugly to him, and you might recognize some parenting practices and dog training in there too...


Maybell, I understand your frustration.

Sounds like setting some boundaries is in order.
He's their father, seems he's got to step up for them regardless of his feelings about the M.

I've struggled with that too--still am, in fact.

How to get him to uphold his end without being bossy, controlling, complaining, or creating negative interactions.

Finally, I decided that it wasn't so much what I said, as what I did.

I figured out what my boundaries were, and when he crossed them, he got "consequences."

He doesn't let me know he's coming. Then I don't see him when he's here and go dark.
He blows off his night to take care of the animals for no good reason... I go dark and go out and GAL. I know he sees the bill...

I don't know what might work for you, but there's got to be a way to have some "natural consequences" in place that don't require you to be the responsibility cop, but are an outgrowth of his dropping the ball.

He doesn't show up when he's supposed to, you all go on without him.
If the kids get upset at him, then they do. Then he has to explain it to them.

I know this sounds overly simplistic and I don't mean it to be. I'm sure you've thought of all this yourself. Just trying to get the old creative juices flowing.

He's not filling your love tank. Of course he's not. He's struggling enough trying to keep himself afloat.

Maybe try and think of it that right now he has nothing left to give. I don't think he is capable, no matter what he says, or however he may lead you to believe that he might.

Building a relationship with him now is pretty much out of the question. He's not ready. Try to focus on the small things, the MANY small things we all are reading in your sitch.

He has to experience the consequences of his actions in the real world. If the children turn away from them, if he loses out on opportunities with them, then that's the price he pays.

I'm not saying your childrens' relationship with him isn't vitally important. It is. But it's not your job to to smooth things over for him, if that's even what you do on occasion.

Try and find ways to deal with things without depending on him. Let him feel what that's like, to be on the outside of the family.

Not in a mean way, just let nature take its course, ya know?

If you could accept that he was ill, would you expect him to fulfill many of your emotional needs, or to uphold an equitable share of the parenting and day-to-day responsibilities?

Perhaps this is another way of looking at it. Because if he really IS in MLC, he is not himself, he is depressed/mixed up and it will only cause resentment if your expectations are not met.

Now--if he gives you grief about taking care of things without him, that's another story!

Again, sorry if this sounds simplistic and dopey. It's just what I've been dealing with.

What to "allow/excuse" and what to insist upon.

I soon realized that my "insisting" did nothing more than push him further away.
So I appreciate all he DOES do, and he does more.

Natural consequences and positive reinforcement.

It's all AMOEBA training!


Me42, H40
D12, S8, S7
A revealed: 7/13
Sep 4/14; Agreed to D 1/15

She believed she could, so she did.
Maybell #2501784 10/29/14 02:52 AM
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More great advice! Thanks for sharing. I have thought of one way I will set a boundary around myself...I accepted a new position a few months ago (but still haven't transitioned...long story...). Accepted it in July. It is a "step up" and requires slightly better dress. At the time, WAW said she would go with me to help me shop for clothes. Just a few days before the dating convo, she told me again that she wanted to go with me (I haven't upgraded the wardrobe yet due to financial strain of all of this crap as well as the fact that I am indefinitely stuck in my current position). It is clear to me now that I do not want to do things like that with her if she is pursuing OM, or even open to the idea. I'm not going to call her and tell her this. I will shop by myself, and will only address it with her if she brings it up again.


Me 38, WAW 30
D11 (former marriage)
S2
T 8 years
M 3 years
BD 8/20/23
S 8/20/23
Card29 #2501787 10/29/14 02:59 AM
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There you go. Will also show you moving on...


Me42, H40
D12, S8, S7
A revealed: 7/13
Sep 4/14; Agreed to D 1/15

She believed she could, so she did.
Maybell #2501802 10/29/14 03:56 AM
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just reading up on your thread to help me consider how to handle IF my situation gets to the point that my W wants to date others. something I'm not really wanting to think about right now.

thanks for updates


me-42
w-33
d-3
together-6
m-4yr
6/1/14-w check out
6/15/14-EA?
8/1/14-mc
9/1/14-IDLY-started DBing
9/15/14-w suggest separation
10/17/14 wife is done
12/13/2014 - wife move out
me file 1/1/15


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