Ganb8te 2 - WAH - lost in translation

[gan]

Ganbatte (gan-bat-te) means something like "do your best" in Japanese. My sister - who was living in Tokyo at the time of BD - explained to me that ganbatte is used when Westerners would typically say "good luck"…like at the beginning of a test. Seemed fitting for my display name (dang that 7 character limit!)

Old thread: here

I am still here doing my best to turn things around. Not much to report on R front. H hasn't been in touch since he picked up his things 3 weeks ago. I've since moved into my own place and…feel pretty good actually. It's taken a bit to get internet set up so I haven't been posting much lately.

For now, a toast - to new beginnings and internet! Thanks so much to everyone for sharing your stories and commenting on mine. I honestly don't know where I would be without the virtual you.

[Little]

Welcome back! I'm glad to see more people without kids here, because we have a different situation that those that have children and are REQUIRED to keep in touch with their spouses. It's a game changer when there's no real reason to be in contact.

[LisaB]

Hi ganb8te! Welcome back and cheers to Internet! Glad to hear you are doing well.

Also agree with Little, it helps to chat with others who don't have kids and see our different challenges to keep in touch. My H has been less communicative lately - oddly after saying a few weeks ago that he missed talking to me daily and wanted us to be in closer contact.

I guess for those of us with no reason to stay in touch we have a different situation to navigate.

Is it "out of sight out of mind" or "absence makes the heart grow fonder"?

[gan]

Thanks for stopping by, L & L. It's true, not having kids does create some unique challenges and this really put me in a panic early on given the seemingly blank canvas staring back at me post BD.

But I have to say that reading stories here….yikes, those with kids are dealing with A LOT that we don't. Almost seems that their hearts are breaking twice over - once for themselves and once for their kids. The words that are coming out of their kids' mouths...raw, unfiltered commentary on their sitch? I'm not sure if I could deal with that. I'm still shaking my head at raliced learning from D6 that her H shares the same bed as OW at their house. What horror!

Seeing our online friends with kids navigate this situation restores my faith in humankind. They demonstrate their caring and compassion for others on a daily basis.

[LisaB]

Ganb8te, I so agree! I do not envy those going through this with children. I don't think I could handle it! It takes some serious strength!

There are of course advantages and disadvantages to not having kids involved on our cases. We have no reason to keep in regular contact and no reason to stay together or work things out besides selfish desires. But we also don't have the agonizing pain and heartbreak of watching our kids suffer along with us.

Since we have no reason to stay in contact I think we have unique challenges but still things can turn around with our situations too. I think patience is the key.

Hugs,
Lisa

[gan]

I've mentioned a few times on other peoples' threads how insightful I found the book Passionate Marriage by David Schnarch. In some ways I found it to be the perfect "work on you" companion to DR. The basic principle is that we need a certain amount of differentiation in order to tolerate close relationships with other people. Differentiation relates to our ability to maintain a sense of self in these close relationships, which in turn relates to our ability to soothe our own anxieties and be emotionally immune to "infection" by other peoples' anxiety. Fail to do this and we become reactive or need to break contact. It gets too intense. We lose ourselves.

"Relationships go well when both partners self-confront and drive themselves forward." "If people won't confront themselves they start confronting each other, attempting to control their partner to keep themselves from feeling pressured."

I'm still mulling this through but I'm coming to think this is exactly where we were struggling in our M.

[raliced]

Thanks for the recommendation - I'll definitely check this out.

[gan]

I should warn you that there are some fairly graphic descriptions of how this plays out in the bedroom!

[gan]

(Smile on my face)

Just back from one of my GAL activities: volunteering with a men's shelter that offers university-level courses to internal and external clients as part of their enrichment activities. I just helped my learning partner crank out a 1000 word essay comparing the work of two sociologists that I've never heard of so that he can submit his final assessment. My learning partner is incredibly articulate but truly struggles to structure his thoughts and get things down on paper in a coherent way. I sat there and typed while he dictated to me. Zero to 1000 words in 1.25hr! He was so grateful at the end. He's taken this course 3 times before but never passed because he didn't turn in the essay. He'd better turn this one in!

My H is a fool.

[raliced]

Wow- what a fantastic sounding GAL activity - I'm very impressed - that must have been an awesome feeling.

And yes - your H is a fool.

[gan]

Thanks, raliced. I'm still smiling about it this morning so yes - super GAL activity!

[MrBond]

Hi gamb8te. so where do things stand with you and your H now?

[Card29]

ganb8te, that is a tremendous GAL inspiration!

[gan]

Thanks for coming over, Mr Bond. Where we stand is probably best summed up by a statement made by my H the last time I had contact with him:

IF we were to get involved again the R would have to be very different. Right now he doesn't see how that can happen.

A direct link to our last interaction is here (3rd post down).

Since BD 4.5 months ago we've seen each other 2-3 times and exchanged emails/texts over practical matters a few times in between. He denied that there was an OW at the time of BD and I've not asked or snooped since. I don't generally initiate contact and he does so infrequently. We've split our finances and are living separate lives. I'm letting him be. But that sentence above makes it sound like he hasn't closed the door...

I've been thinking about what would need to be different and what he might need to see in order to believe our M could work again. He's a man of few words and explained little of what what going on at BD. He wants more fun, more passion, more connection, and I agree there were issues there. Since there's next to no contact I can't work on these things within the context of the M. But…I am working through what I perceive to be my barriers to them with my IC (e.g. my relationship with work, issues around sex) and developing myself more outside of work. He also said I don't listen and I've come to think I need to change my approach to communication in general. I want to improve this area (I've read how to improve your M without talking about it, nonviolent communication) but rarely get the opportunity to practice with H so am striving to do this in everyday exchanges. It's hard though (as you all know).

I'm feeling good about me right now. Things have stabilized and I feel like I am operating from a different place. I'm not going down cheeseless tunnels but I'm not moving things either.

[MrBond]

Do you have a FB account that he can see?

[gan]

I have a FB but we're not FB friends. I noticed he signed up for FB soon after he moved out (that's the extent of my snooping; I can see he updated his photo).

I'm FB friends with his sister and so I have been posting the occasional message reflecting my PMA/GAL activity in the hope that it somehow gets through. It's a long shot though as he doesn't speak with his sister very often (or at least he didn't pre-BD). My SIL is getting married in December but is seems I'll be missing it, sadly.

I've also thought about friending his brother on FB. He and his wife experienced a difficult child birth recently and so there are grounds for reaching out.

Per DB/Sandi's rules I've refrained from involving the ILs and they've not contacted me since BD (we weren't super close anyway). The only exception is his mum who contacted me after my parents let the cat out of the bag (long story). H is estranged from hist mum and she believes that SIL/BIL are withholding information about what is going on, per H's request.

[LisaB]

Hey ganb8te, SO looking forward to Mr Bond's advice for you!

Jumping in here on the FB topic. Even though you are not friends on Fb maybe you can use it to communicate some things to your H. He might be stalking your profile too ... if so maybe consider making some of your posts public if you are comfortable with that. Or just change your profile pic to something fun and sexy and gorgeous, and update your background pic every once in a while to something very exciting and cool and GAL related? Just an idea... if he looks, it might make him curious.

I know FB is working to my advantage with my WAH. We are "friends" however, and also have 100 "friends" in common. That helps. I work the FB angle as much as I can without being too obvious.

Big hugs, Lisa

[gan]

Thanks, Lisa. Honestly I'm not sure that H will be checking FB. He's always been kinda anti-FB. He changed his profile picture soon after he moved out then hasn't updated it since….and its not the most flattering photo of him. But who knows, maybe he's become a FB fiend as part of his new persona?

I'm a bit inspired reading that you've been testing the waters again with texting your H. There's a great seaside event on over near where my H lives and I intend to go later today. I'm toying with dropping him a text "Hey H, I'm going to X later in the day. You around? Want to grab a drink? I have some news to share." (I learned that I got my promotion earlier in the week). Not sure though. He'll most likely say no...I can deal with that (no expectations)…but will it cause harm?

[vossy]

Ganb8te, I read some stat once that said that people often either (a) join FB or (b) post more on FB in the aftermath of a breakup. My ex was always very anti-FB too, but when I read that stat I had a feeling. Sure enough, about two months ago he joined (at least I think it's him).

I'm fairly sure, btw, you and I live pretty close to each other.

[LisaB]

Hi ganb8te, that's such a difficult question! My advice might not be worth anything but ...

Having recently re-read DR, I noticed Michele talks about the LRT and going dark as a technique, but she also talks about doing what works and not doing what doesn't work. The only way to find out what works is to try things and see what happens. If it sets you back that's fine, just go get back on the horse that was working.

If you can have no expectations, I say go for it and send a friendly but not pushy text like you described. If he says no, at least it opens the door of communication and maybe he will suggest another time if he can't make it today. Or maybe he will be completely annoyed that you texted him and wish he never had to talk to you again in his life. But testing the waters might be ok. That's my opinion.

The way you describe your relationship and his personality sounds like he may need a friendly push or two to get out of limbo-land. And I think being friendly is ok, as long as you don't then get all crazy and initiate R talks etc. But I know you wouldn't do that!

Good luck and let us know how it goes!
Hugs, Lisa

[gan]

Thanks, Vossy and Lisa for the quick feedback.

Vossy - if my H declines you're welcome to join me. I'll keep an eye out for the person with a big DB stamped on their forehead ;-) Re FB, that stat would be true in my experience. I didn't use FB much before either but have been since DB.

Lisa - yeah, I reckon I'm going to do it! It's funny what you say re him needing a friendly push. I came across a Valentine's Day card from a couple of years ago when I was packing up my old house. It said something to the effect of loving me because I teach him something new every day, but he only understands the lesson when he's looking back at the situation. The lesson of that day was around planning our future, something that I was trying to get us to do and some thing which he responded to by buying an assortment of goal setting tools. We never did get very far with them…which is interesting looking back.

[LisaB]

I'll echo what vossy said re FB. WAH is using it more, I'm using it more. In previous relationships I noticed my exes would suddenly join and friend all my relatives? WTF...

I just took a look at WAH's FB for the first time in months. Perhaps you should be happy that you aren't fb friends with your H, ganb8te. Snooping is no fun. Not much shocking on there surprisingly but he did post a photo of something he cooked that is my recipe I used to make specially for him! All his new little girlfriends "liked" it. I had to resist the urge to say something like "imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, a$$hole"...

GOOD LUCK today and definitely keep us updated!!!!

Hugs, Lisa

[gan]

Whoa…he replied already…affirmatively!!! First meet up on a weekend since BD!

"Not sure about a drink, but we can sit on the hill and talk".

Yikes!

[LisaB]

!!!!

Go Ganb8te!

Before you go, come up with a list of your cool GAL/PMA/180 topics to talk about and remember to validate ala Mr Bond if he wants to R talk!

What are you going to wear?

Exciting!

[vossy]

Maybe I shouldn't turn up after all

Agree with LisaB on this, make sure you have a little plan in place on staying positive, avoiding R talk, etc.

[gan]

Oh I don't know, Vossy. I think it would be pretty good if you interrupted our talk and were like "G? OMG last week was soooo fun we should totally do that again" and they we go on yapping about…IDK…sky diving or something ;-)

Lisa, great suggestion re the short list and I'll certainly have my ear to the ground for validation moments. I'm wearing jean shorts and a tank and looking all sparkly with sunscreen. All new of course because retail therapy has been part of the norm post-BD.

I've got my PMA on today and will rock some Scissor Sisters while I'm driving over to keep it that way. Thanks so much you guys for getting me to get my game on!

[vossy]

Report back later!

[gan]

Well, I'm back from the talk on the hill. Nothing too interesting to report. Just showed off my PMA and caught up with what each other was up to. I rattled off a few things I've been up to outside of work and learned he's taking an art class (so am I). He said he was glad I got my promotion and acknowledged how hard I worked for it. I thanked him for his support along the way. He again said things are busy and stressful at work and added that morale is down because the company isn't doing well relative to their targets. He asked about a few practical things - like had I turned off the electricity at the old place (er…yes, H I took care of it). I reckon I saw him checking me out a couple of times. No R talk. He said it was nice to see me but he does't really have much to say. I sensed things were ending so said I was going to go before he had the chance to.

So a few milestones today:
1. H agreed to meet up for a spontaneous chat on a weekend. He's declined these invites the couple of times I've extended them since we separated - said he was busy but didn't offer an alternative date. I threw in a teaser this time ("I have some news") so perhaps that piqued his curiosity.
2. Made it through a whole interaction without R coming up. Previously he has brought it up when the conversation stalls. I think the difference today was because we met at the beach - when the conversation stalled it was easy to just look out at the ocean.
3. I ended it before he did!

Baby steps? Maybe…so hard to tell given that I probably won't interact with him again for another few weeks. I'll follow up with a "nice to see you" text tonight. Can anyone see any other opportunities that I'm missing? The work stress seems to be a recurring issue for him at the moment but I can't think of a way to work with that without stepping over the DB line….or rather the Martian line. By that I mean I know I shouldn't offer unsolicited advice to a man...though I did have a great conversation with my IC the other day about how to better deal with things at my work ;-)

[gan]

Ha ha. I was messing around with my FB last night. Updating photos, making some things public. I posted a photo of the view from my new digs and added a comment saying as such. Within moments a friend commented "Where are you guys living now?" Arrrghhh!!! Deleted everything and sent her an IM explaining the circumstances!

I am such a FB noob! At one point in this saga that would have stressed me out. Now I find it kinda funny.

[LisaB]

Hey Ganb8te! Sounds like your meeting went well!!!! Good for you showing off your PMA and looking hot while doing so. I think this was the PERFECT way to meet. At the beach, relaxed, no R talk, you ending it first. Basically you are able to show him what he is missing. Maybe he had nothing dramatic to say about it now but you never know what might happen next.

I mean he could have gone home and said to himself, wow, that Ganb8te looked damn fine today and she seems like she is doing well. Then tomorrow he thinks wow, hmmm, that Ganb8te, she looked good! Then the next day he goes to his art class and he thinks hey, I wonder what Ganb8te is working on in her art class?

Basically every positive interaction sets up the opportunity for another. If you can have a good, relaxed interaction there is more possibility for another one.

You did great! Congrats!
Big hugs, Lisa

[gan]

Thanks, Lisa. Always great to get some positive feedback. It's true, I really have no idea what is going to happen next!

I had a good session with IC last week. We were talking about how I can better manage some of the work-related issues that come up periodically and which contributed to me being stressed at home. I expected us to discuss a few things that I could try to implement at work…but instead she recommended that I work on getting some daily mindfulness practice into my schedule outside work. That way I am more likely to come to the issues from a calmer, less reactive state. I love the idea of committing to doing something (daily mindfulness practice) rather than committing to not doing something (not reacting). Makes a lot of sense!

I mentioned that I'd been dabbling with mindfulness but was finding it hard to settle down in the mornings in the rush to get out the door (plus, you know, the sitch is on my mind). She suggested that I try going for a walk before sitting down to practice. So for the last couple of days I've woken up, walked to a nearby park and sat there for 15 minutes for my mindfulness practice. I have to say, the walk definitely puts me in a better mindset to start my practice. Highly recommend!

[gan]

(posting here because I can't say it otherwise)

Dear H,

I miss you and I love you. I miss that I can't say that to you - and haven't in 5 months. Lately I've been doing well in your absence but tonight - while attending a fundraiser ball in an attempt to move forward with my life - I miss you and all that you bring to my life. I know that we are traveling different paths right now but I still hold out hope that our paths will cross at some point…that we will be that couple who is able to look back and say our relationship was never better.

All my love,
G

[gan]

I've been waiting for the other shoe to drop and sure enough…the PMA I've maintained the last few weeks came crashing down this weekend. I miss my H. It's 5 months to the day since he moved out. We've not exchanged any angry words in that time, but no loving ones either. It feels like he's not moving away from me quite so quickly as in the beginning, but there doesn't seem to be any movement toward me either. For example, the rental bond money that was deposited into our joint account when I moved out of our old place is still in the joint account 2 weeks later (before he was eager to take his half out). Then again, that could all just be my imagination.

I've mostly been doing LRT til now and letting him initiate contact. Last weekend I initiated contact and he agreed to meet up. Talk is really strained when we do meet up (he says he hasn't got much to say) and I'm not sure if/how I can help steer that in a more positive direction. Any thoughts there? A guys perspective would be really appreciated. I know the need to talk is different for men and women and so I wonder if I am aiming for the wrong target...

I keep going back and re-reading DR for ideas on what to do. I confess I have found it difficult to set goals. Sure I can set some related to GAL etc…but I struggle to think of things that might help me figure out if the R is moving forward given that we are separated. The obvious one would be that H initiates contact more frequently but that is not achievable in a couple of weeks! Has anyone here had success with writing solution-oriented goals in this situation? Care to share?

[gan]

Tough mindfulness practice this morning. Too much on my mind...

[Old Dog]

It's good to see you're practising (or attempting to) mindfullness ganb8te. I like the idea of going for a walk and doing it in the park. I go to a group meeting on Wednesday evenings but don't do any by myself bless I'm feeling really low, in which case I e got Oli Doyle on my iPhone to help me.

I like your letter. Well, like isn't the right word but you know what I mean. I say a similar little speech to myself before I go to sleep each night.

As far as a guy's perspective goes, I don't know if I'm a typical guy. I never felt like one. I'm trying my best to keep a PMA, appear cheerful and initiate a conversation with my wife. I'm not much of a talker, so this is a small 180 for me. But sometimes it's like sweeping blood out of a stone and it's just too much effort. But keep going, it gets a little easier. OK there will be days when you go back two steps. You just have pick yourself up and try again.

It will help your own self worth whatever happens. I'm feeling a lot more like my old self now. I think my wife must have taken note but she's not showing any sign of budging. The elephant in the room has shrunk though thank goodness.

Do the breathe thing and let us know how you're getting on.

(Not so) Old Dog xx

[jim0987]

What is he passionate about? Most guys talk about the things they are passionate about when they feel comfortable. Football, work

Not saying that you have to talk more, but you need to make interaction with you feel comfortable he might then engage more (less defensive at least).

rereading DB and DR is good but you might want to look at some of the other books about better communication in general.

[gan]

Thanks, Old Dog and Jim.

Old Dog - I use the Headspace app for mindfulness. By your fellow countryman actually - Andy Puddicombe. I much prefer his voice to many of the other apps out there. Interesting to hear you say you don't feel like a typical guy - I think my H would say the same. He wasn't much of a talker at the best of times which makes it all the more challenging now. That damn elephant, huh? When's it gonna move on out?

Jim - thanks for the suggestions. We do talk about his work, family updates etc and I ask about what he's been up to on the surfing and ultimate frisbee fronts. He doesn't really run with it though. I want him to feel comfortable talking but maybe it's just too soon. Or maybe I'm just bothered by it because I'm a woman and I need talk! I've read Nonviolent Communication, How To Improve Your Marriage Without Talking About It and an abridged version of 5LL. Are there others you would recommend?

[jim0987]

Connecting through yes was reasonable.
Stop arguing , start talking had a good analysis of what people feel when they speak.

Its difficult to say really though. Every time my W gets chatting she seems catch herself clam up and immediately bring up something to do with the divorce.

[jim0987]

5LL is good as is His needs, her needs.

They are useful surrounding reading but DR is still the core text here.

[LisaB]

Ganb8te! Hi! I feel like I might have some advice for you and I love your questions as they are exactly the same as mine!

I have a hard time with the goals too. I think it is very difficult to have relationship goals with no relationship! I hope someone drops in with some ideas about that.

And I have a hard time with the talking too. I am very talkative and usually have no problem coming up with topics but I struggle a bit with that in the current situation. I don't want to talk too much, I want to leave space for him to talk, but then it seems like he brings up R talk and not the good kind. But I have some advice for you - and I should use it myself as well!

1. find interesting topic, educate yourself about it, ask what they think.
Start reading something new or listening to the radio, something you don't normally listen to or some magazine or newspaper you don't normally read. Find some current event, some medical breakthrough, technological innovation, some interesting study (or more than one thing) that you find really cool. Talk about that. Say "oh I just read the most interesting thing..." tell him about it, ask him if he knows about it, listen to what he says, then the key thing... ask him "what do you think about it?" and listen. Have a discussion or debate. I find men LOVE this. I forget to do it. And I also forget to really listen to what they say and ask a lot of good questions. It works. And it is a safe subject. Maybe have a few interesting things in your arsenal in case he is bored by the first topic you pick.

2. don't meet to talk, meet to do something!
Instead of meeting to talk - dinners, drinks, etc - meet to do something! Have an activity other than sitting. Go for a walk somewhere interesting, go hear music, go to an event, go food tasting or wine tasting or beer tasting, go for a hike, boat ride, swim, gym workout... it doesn't matter what it is! They say men bond over activities not talking. That men always DO things together. Well, that is not always true, plenty of my man friends meet up with each other for drinks. But they often like to watch sports, play sports, build something, hear music or do some activity together. They also say a good way to build excitement in a relationship is to do something new and exciting together, like bungee jump, travel to a new place, do something totally new and different, etc. The excitement over the new activity is supposed to spill over onto the couple's feelings about each other. So suggest something casual like you did last time but a fun activity.

Those are my suggestions. I hope they help. I need to take my own advice!

Let me know if you come up with any goals.

Big hugs, Lisa

[gan]

Thanks, Jim and Lisa.

Jim - the other books are now downloaded on my iPad. Coincidentally - do others know about Kindle Unlimited. $10/month for unlimited downloads - many of the books we talk about are on there. Plus there is a a free 30 day trial (we don't have Amazon in Australia so I haven't been using it since we moved back here…apologies if Kindle Unlimited is old news for ya'll, but I - frankly - was excited!)

Lisa - yeah, I've been thinking about suggesting we meet up to do an activity rather than just talk. I guess I'm a little stuck deciding whether I should initiate more. The fact that he agreed to meet up was a bit of a surprise the other week. I think I'll try again in another week or two (without any expectations). If he agrees again, I'll take it as a positive sign.

Without the goals, its hard to monitor progress. Any goal masters out there? Ideas for goals while separated?

(mindfulness practice much better this morning and yoga last night was AMAZING)

[LisaB]

Ganb8te, as I said I struggled with the goals, but I did try to write some... here are a few:

- he will check in with me to see how I am
- he will say he is unhappy with his life without me
- he will show respect and admiration for me
- he will offer to do favors for me
- he will give information to me to solve a problem or question I had
- he will say he is impressed with something I am doing
- he will remember something I said and ask me about it

Do those help at all? I have no idea if I am on the right track.

I think you have the right idea about initiating contact. Remember that doing what works is the rule of DB. So it worked to ask him to meet up, didn't it? Maybe continue that, in a very relaxed and non-pushy way. Take your time. Maybe he will ask first!

I think it is ok to contact your H as long as you don't pressure him and just seem friendly and happy and confident.

Perhaps contacting him to be friendly and not to ask to meet would be something you could try. That's even less pursuing. Just a "hey how are you doing, I was thinking of you because I saw this X that I know you enjoy" or something like that.

How I usually try to think of "not pursuing pursuing" contact is to say something that can in no way can be construed as you wanting, needing or missing something. Friendly, confident and happy. Showing off something cool you are doing would work.

Well, those are just my random thoughts. Hope they help give you some ideas?

Hugs, Lisa

[stuie]

hi thought id pop over and check out your sitch, im on the other side to you, being the male and hadn't put a lot of work into the relationship before this all went down, now W has shut down the only thing i got is that i was there physically but not emotionally... typical man thing i think. Butnow im the one trying to repair while shes out playing....

yes i have the head space app too def worth the money, its helped me a lot, also running 5k 2x a week and weights 3x a week where time allows

good luck

[gan]

Thanks, Stuie, for dropping by. I'll stop by your thread a little later.

Lisa - that is an awesome list of goals! And if you are in a place where you think they are attainable then that is really great. In my case I think I would need to take your goals and break them up into fifths or something to make them more attainable. As for your thoughts on initiating contact, I don't know why but it hadn't even occurred to me to make contact without the goal of meeting up. I thought - great idea when I read that! At least then I can get a bit more of a sense for whether him agreeing to meet the other day was a sign that I should try initiating more.

So….

I did it. I sent a text last night down into the cave saying "Just enjoying some fried chicken for dinner. Makes me think of you. How you doing?" He read it almost immediately…...but no reply (12hrs later). It was worth a try but I'll assume for now that initiating contact is not the way to go. He was only tempted to come out of the cave last time because I enticed him with "I have some news."

I'll leave him be and get back to focussing on me. Gotta say, I'm not sure if I'm in this for the long haul.

[LisaB]

Oh Ganb8te, what a shame he didn't reply yet. But you never know unless you try. Just wait and see. This adventure is quite the test of our patience isn't it?

For now just keep focusing on yourself. That's all we can really do.

Do you have any clue whether there is an OW? Maybe that is confusing things. It definitely plays into my situation. I can tell when he is with one of his OWs because he doesn't reply or sometimes even look at my texts for 12 hrs or more. (it's a little bit of mind reading but also I know because of my previous spying)

I'm wishing you good luck Ganb8te. You are really terrific and your H is missing out! I know things will eventually go our way!

Have a good day today!
Hugs, Lisa

[gan]

Thanks, Lisa. I'm not too bothered by the lack of response. I guess it just tells me where he's at right now.

I'm 100% certain that 1 or more of the following is true:

(1) He's seeing OW - he did say "it feels like we are roommates" in the lead up to BD (red flag per DR) and he said he wanted to date others when we separated. So, highly plausible...but I'm not devoting much headspace to it as I have no real evidence one way or the other;

(2) He's moved into emotional cutoff mode (amateur diagnosis) - his parents got divorced when he was 25 and he barely speaks to either one now. No one really understands why, himself included I think. He's not seen a counselor to try to move forward on the issue so far as I know. So yeah, it's possible he's shut me out…for real;

(3) Neither (1) or (2) is true

Actually (2) scares me more that (1). It's always been a risk but I've never known what to do with that. Everyone has flaws - how does one decide to move on based on the chance that something will play out in the future? I was pretty happy in our M. We had issues but none that I was prepared to walk over. I just wanted to work through them, together.

Maybe (2) is playing out now, but maybe not. Certainly it contributes to doubts about whether he'll confront himself enough to turn this around and whether he'll put in the work if we ever did reconcile. But we're not at that juncture yet, so…

All I can do is work on myself, right?

[Zues126]

Correct. Work o yourself. It's a common theme, "I don't want the old M and/or don't think he'll change". He left because he didn't think YOU'D change. But you are. Give him a W only a fool would leave and be might very well move mountains.

Also, as for #2- both my best friend and I have done things along those lines. We call it the 'dead to me' list. The idea is that if someone hurts us, if they become too much drama, anytime the cons exceed the pros, we just shrug and scratch them off of our list of contacts. I am exaggerating in the sense that this happens very rarely and we both have improved on this. But I have done it.

How it works is that I used to suppress my feelings and instead live in my head. I lived analytically an repressed anything that felt. So if someone was hurting me I'd just 'decide' to not need them around and 'decide' that I wouldn't miss them. What about the pain of loss, the grieving process? I was so disconnected I didn't even know I was suffering. I just always felt that way. Very busy minded, driven and goal focused, and uncomfortable because inside I was always in pain and didn't know.

It wasnt until I hit rock bottom that I was forced to address this model for avoiding emotions. Not sure if your H is the same as me. But whatever he says, this will be a rock bottom for him at some point. If there is an OW it will be after that falls apart. Or after his fantasy gets rained on. But at that point if he looks your direction you want to be your best self and give him another reason to step up.

[gan]

Thanks so much, Zues. Truly great of you to share this experience. It's always been a bit of a dark secret so it is great to have this insight. Thank you.

You've reinforced a few things for me:

(1) "I was so disconnected I didn't even know I was suffering." Exactly. H says he's fine but looking on it doesn't seem that way. Every single family event is fraught with anxiety (and he has a family wedding coming up - that he's going to...alone). This used to be a source of open conflict for us but I backed off as it wasn't getting anywhere and I eventually figured out it was his issue to sort out. It's certainly impacted on our R, though he never could connect the dots between this issue and the ones in our M. It's also impacted on my relationship with his parents and wider family (they feel sad for me because he cut me off from them). It's also made it tricky for my parents too since MIL reaches out to all of us. On the plus side, she's told me I am still her DIL and she's not taking sides.

(2) "It wasnt until I hit rock bottom that I was forced to address this model for avoiding emotions." Yep, I do anticipate this little crisis could do that. He may manage to skip across the ice-covered pond and get to the other side without falling through this time…but I agree he will fall in at some point. I may drop the rope but I will still keep it nearby in case he wants to get pulled out!

Have you read up on Bowen family theory? There is some stuff in there on emotional cut off. It relates to my all time favorite topic of differentiation which I learned about in Passionate Marriage. It all fits together. I can see why we are in this place and how we need to grow.

[LisaB]

Thanks for sharing that Zues. I think I can relate to it a bit with my H. He is also very disconnected from his emotions and I think his BD was even a surprise to him.

[gan]

I don't know where I am at lately on the DB front. It's bad enough that we are dark (nay pitch black) but for a 30 minute meet up once every 4-5 weeks where he seems sad/apathetic and I show off my PMA. I feel like we reached a new level recently though when H didn't even respond to my "how are you" text. I invested too much in this R to have it just vanish without a trace. I don't get it. I want some explanations. It doesn't help that I just had a long talk with my sister and she can't understand why I'm not demanding more respect from him.

I'm feeing pretty detached these days but that is coming at the expense of feelings of compassion and love for H. I feel like I need to try something different, not just sit back and wait for him to get in touch while I GAL. But I have no idea what to do…

Some ideas that have been running through my mind:
(1) Ask his BF if he can provide any information to help me understand where H is at and what might be useful. His BF got really angry when H told him he was moving out. I've tried to respect their friendship and not talk to his BF (I do email his wife every now and then). Even just getting a second opinion on whether he thinks depression/MLC is playing in here would be helpful.
(2) Send H a letter - in the past I've had success helping H understand my point of view by putting it in writing. I'm wondering if there is any sense in putting down some ideas for how I think things could be different in a future R (in response to him saying a while ago - IF we were to get back together things would need to be different and right now he doesn't see how that can happen).

I get it, these are a total no no from a DB point of view. But the longer this goes on the more both of us are liable to slip into apathy-land and end up D by virtue of having had no meaningful interaction. DR says do what works and I guess at 5.5 months post-separation I am feeling like I don't know what that is.

Any thoughts comrades?

[Zues126]

granb8te, not sure this is good advice, just projecting my feelings on your sitch. I think you have to detach MORE. And allow MORE distance.

Here's the thing about the idea of 'doing what works'...it suggests that you can somehow control the outcome. You can't. Your H may never come back, open the door, or come around. 'Doing what works' is about maximizing those possibilities, but you can't control another person.

I don't think a letter or talking with his friend are good ideas. All I think that will do is send the message to your H that you are still attached to him, and he is not in danger of losing you as a back up plan. I don't see him reading a letter and deciding to close the gap.

I'd be preparing yourself for your life without him, for yourself and for your next R. You don't have to burn bridges. Letting go doesn't mean giving up. It means acknowledging you can't control him, respecting his decisions, recentering your life on you, and accepting what you have been given in your life.

What would you do if you knew he'd never come back? What personal goals would you set? When do you feel you'd be ready to start dating again? Any things you'd need to work on for yourself before you'd feel ready to be in a different relationship?

What's the difference between giving up and moving on? I think giving up means blaming the WAS for the breakdown, stopping your personal growth, and being the same person you always were. I think moving on but using your experiences to become a better person, maybe not the one your WAS wanted exactly but someone that has learned from their failures and has grown from it...I think that is the best DBing you can do at this stage.

Vets, I'd love to know your thoughts on that. This is where I'm at and how I'm viewing it. If I'm off course please correct me and make sure granb8te doesn't listen to me. If nothing else I wanted to bump this thread up

[jim0987]

^^^^ well said Zeus

[LisaB]

Hi ganb8te, I feel badly for you about the lack of contact, answers and closure in your situation. I agree with Zues and think that both reaching out to his best friend and writing him a letter are not the best ideas.

I would recommend maybe asking him again to meet up? Try an activity like we discussed earlier. Maybe a bike ride, a concert or a movie?

It sounds like he is the type to hide from problems and act like an ostrich with his head in the sand when he doesn't want to deal with someone or something. That might be a problem for you getting any sort of movement or answers.

I don't think you should contact his friend or write a heartfelt letter because I think both of those are too much. But Being persistent about spending time together isn't too pushy in this case I don't think. However, as Zues said, it is really all about you and working on yourself. (which you have been doing!) Keep at it, and continue to stretch outside your comfort zone. Maybe some epiphany will come out of that.

You know my situation well, and although I am in regular contact with my WAH, I don't get much from him in the way of answers. I also feel like I want to push and ask him to spend time together and ask what is going on in his head. But I have to constantly remind myself that this is going to happen on the WAS' timetable, not mine. I can't rush it, unfortunately.

Good luck and let us know what you decide to do next.

Hugs, Lisa

[gan]

It's always grand when the weekend feels like it lasts longer than the work week. Most exciting, I'm nearly on top of my Christmas shopping and picked up some fab new artworks for my home at a local street fair.

So I'm back in PMA territory. Thanks Zeus and Lisa for your thoughtful posts - I'm still mulling things over. Actually my IC thinks I should do both - send a letter and contact his friend - but I'm not rushing into anything right now.

[LisaB]

Hi Ganb8te, glad to hear you had a good weekend and are back on the PMA bandwagon. I am too! Funny how the rollercoaster keeps on rolling even when it is not as dramatic as it was at first.

I was just thinking... maybe Zues is right and you just need to keep ignoring him and focusing on yourself right now. I don't think it is really about your H not seeing you as a back up plan because he is not acting like he is trying to keep you around as plan B. He is just cutting you off and retreating to protect himself.

The reason I say maybe you should continue to stay dark is because I was reflecting on your situation while thinking about my previous boyfriend. After we broke up (his idea) he wanted to reunite. I did not. He would pester me and pursue me, it annoyed me every time I heard from him. But then at one point he just stopped calling and emailing me. Anyway, after a few months I realized I had not heard from him at all and it finally made me curious and want to contact him. But it did take a while for me to realize I hadn't heard from him.

I am not a patient person so the fact that it took me a few months to notice is surprising. Now, we didn't reunite, but I did finally start to wonder what he was up to. So what I am saying is, maybe the timeline we are on is not realistic for the WAS. Maybe it just takes them AGES to wake up and notice that you haven't been around in a while. Maybe it just takes a lot longer than we think.

Anyway, sorry for the long story. I am happy you had a nice weekend and I hope this week is terrific!

Hugs, Lisa

[gan]

OK I've been mulling over your questions since you asked, Zeus. Here goes...

What would you do if you knew he'd never come back?

Well, if I knew this for sure, I would probably apply for a job in another country and move there. Ironically it's in H's country and a job I got an interview for 5 years ago but I turned it down because H/we weren't keen on relocating. I don't think I am ready to put this plan into action just yet. Moving 10000 miles away probably wouldn't leave much room for hope on the R front. I certainly wouldn't want it to seem like I've be holding a grudge all this time (I haven't).

What personal goals would you set?

I've always been pretty crap at setting personal goals outside of work. Actually I think we both were…and this was one of our problems (without personal goals it was difficult to support each other in reaching them). I've raised this with IC and we are talking this through.

When do you feel you'd be ready to start dating again? Any things you'd need to work on for yourself before you'd feel ready to be in a different relationship?

In some ways I think I am ready. I'm open to meeting new people and feel emotionally ready to get involved if someone interesting came along. But…I don't think that is compatible with restoring my M. So for now, I am choosing not to date others. We can't file until 12 months after separation (so June 2015). I suspect I won't feel right about dating until after D happens (if it happens), regardless of where I am at emotionally. It's a values thing. It may change.

What's the difference between giving up and moving on? I think giving up means blaming the WAS for the breakdown, stopping your personal growth, and being the same person you always were. I think moving on but using your experiences to become a better person, maybe not the one your WAS wanted exactly but someone that has learned from their failures and has grown from it...I think that is the best DBing you can do at this stage.

Agreed but I prefer to think of it as moving forward rather than moving on. I've made a lot of progress shifting my perspective and finding more balance outside of work. I've confronted some of my holdups that were creating obstacles in our M. I'm managing my anger and generally sending compassion in my H's direction despite not interacting with him very frequently. I still have more to do but I am moving myself forward.

[gan]

Here's the thing about the idea of 'doing what works'...it suggests that you can somehow control the outcome. You can't. Your H may never come back, open the door, or come around. 'Doing what works' is about maximizing those possibilities, but you can't control another person.

Forgot to respond to this point. Actually I don't think I'm operating out of a desire to control my H. To my mind there is a difference between trying to control and trying to influence. I think everyone here is hoping to positively influence the outcome through their actions - PMA, 180s, NC etc. At the very least, they are trying not to negatively influence the outcome. I absolutely did try to control things in our R. That much is clear. Part of this journey for me has been about learning to see H as an independent person who makes decisions based on his needs and wants. I liked the boat analogy in Passionate Marriage. It's an illusion that we are in the same boat as our spouse. More accurately, we're in two separate boats and paddling in the same direction when things are going well. When things are not going well...well you all know what happens. Sometimes we try to steer the other persons boat (control). Part of DBing is - to my mind - about creating conditions where the current is flowing in your direction giving the greatest chance that your spouse will drift on back to your boat (influence).

Lisa - I'll respond to your posts next. For now, it's bed time in the southern hemisphere.

[gan]

Wow. My H's BF, the guy who I was thinking about reaching out to? I just learned that he had open heart surgery to remove a benign tumor from his heart a couple of months ago. He's around the same age as H and has 2 little girls. It was picked up as part of routine screening (he had Hodgkins lymphoma when he was a kid and apparently radiation therapy is a risk factor this this type of heart tumour). Thankfully he is recovering well. What a reality check.

I've emailed with his W about it (we are friends) and will probably send a small get well gift. I feel like I should reach out to my H over this. I'm not sure what to say though and I'm not 100% certain that H knows. Maybe something like:

"I just heard about J. How shocking! I'm so relieved to know he is recovering well. You must have been rattled by the news. Hope you're holding up you ok"

Any thoughts? I really don't want to make H feel bad or guilty for not telling me. Certainly not trying to pursue. Just want to acknowledge that our mutual friend (his best mate) just had a major life threatening experience. I'll verify whether he knows before sending.

[Little]

I wouldn't do it, Gan. I'd absolutely interact with them if you're on friendly terms, but let H find out from them that you've offered your support. No reason to contact him directly.

[gan]

Help me understand why you say that, Little. Why should I not acknowledge that this would have been a total shock to my H?

Sometimes I feel like these approaches venture into un-human territory. Not reaching out to another human being feels completely wrong to me. (For those not familiar with my sitch, I'm not dealing with the stupid texts or temperature checks. We have very limited contact. Maybe once every 4-5 weeks. So I am not exactly over doing it on the reaching out front!)

[LisaB]

Hi ganb8te,

Well I am certainly no expert but I do agree with you that sometimes these approaches can seem quite silly and like game playing. But some of these silly approaches do work.

In this case I think if you want to check in with your H over this shocking news I think it is ok. As long as you don't have some kind of ulterior motive or expectations. Just being kind is fine.

I've been reading up a bit on "going dark" and it is not being silent, it is treating your WAS as you would a neighbor. Offering help in emergencies and friendly small talk type conversation. Not getting into emotional conversations, not being a best friend. Just being polite.

I think this would qualify as polite and neighborly.

On the other hand, if it happened months ago and he didn't mention it when you saw him or communicated with him, is it weird to bring it up now?

Hugs to you and glad to hear this friend is doing ok.
Lisa

[gan]

Thanks, Lisa. Yeah, I'm confused by the timeline, too. Not sure if his wife wrote the wrong month in her email or if my H didn't know the last time we met up. It's possible; these friends live in the US and so we don't talk super frequently. My H and I did do the usual family catch up so I think it would have come up if he knew then. If he found out after we met up then it's highly likely he didn't tell me…he's not initiating contact.

[gan]

So, sent H a text (there was a mixup with the electricity bill - company sent me his bill at my address). He read it within minutes. No response. There didn't need to be of course but at one point in all of this he would have at least said thanks for letting him know. I feel like we are going backwards. I'm just not sure where to go from here.

In other news - are the any people who read dreams out there? In the last couple of weeks I've started having dreams that involve H. IN MY DREAM last night I attended some dinner party thinking it was a celebration after completing some big event. The guy who I had a crush on in middle school was there, as was my BFF at the time...who actually dated said guy. Part way into the dinner I learn that actually they were all part of a group and they were about to hit the clubs to pursue some gender-bending sex orgy thing. Then it comes out IN THE DREAM that H used to be a part of this group but he left it. There was some discussion around the fact that H is a pretty quiet, introverted guy but deep down he wants to jump in. Anyway, I elected not to join the group and woke up.

Back to the real world...now I'm not one to read into dreams but there are a few interesting things in there:
- My best friend from middle school is resurfacing in my head. She appeared in another dream where I learned about the OW. It was her! We were very competitive in school and by 8th grade we were enemies, partly because she got the guy when everyone knew I had the hots for him. By 12th grade she'd made the rounds with lots of guys. I on the other hand had been with no one, til I met my H in my 2nd year of university. Somehow this whole experience is bringing out feelings I had from middle/high school about not being good enough. Which is interesting because I don't actually feel that way now (or do I?)
- About my H being a quiet guy on the surface but deep down wanting to jump in: I can see lots of parallels with that in the real world. He said he wants more sex, more variety, more fun but did nothing to take us in that direction. I don't think he knew how. Instead he made me feel like I was the problem. Yes, I contributed to the situation and I didn't appreciate how big of an issue this was. But I know that I too was left wanting and ever so much wanted to work with H to address the issue...but he wouldn't.
- About me not joining in: so on Friday night I was walking home. I live in an area that has lots of gay bars and is frequented by tourists. Not infrequently I get stopped by a tourist and asked for directions but then because I'm walking home I end up walking with them and we get into a conversation (this is a 180 - putting myself out there a bit more socially). So on Friday night this lady asks me for directions to a bar, we get talking and she invites me to join her. I said no (I'd already had a few drinks after work) and went home. But then I got to thinking maybe I should have said yes (that is another of the 180s I am trying to work on - saying yes more). So maybe my dream is telling me that I should say yes to a gender-bending orgy when it is next on offer (just joking).

Thoughts? Anyone else out there having vivid dreams about their sitch?

[raliced]

Ganb8te,

I did have a period of very intense dreams, all of which involved my discovery of STBX's affair (in dream world) with wildy inappropriate partners (18 year old, wife of his best friend, etc). I interpreted this as workig through my both my feelings of both hetrayal and that I suddenly felt I didn't know who he was.

Your dream about your former frenemy being involved could have more to do with betrayal than competition, but who knows? I bet there's a website out there with commomn interpretations.

[LisaB]

HAHA Ganb8te the last part of your post really made me laugh out loud!

Well, I will say that I often have these sort of dreams when I am feeling emotional. I've been having them about WAH and I've had them before when I am in an argument with a friend or family member. As Raliced said I think they are a way to work out your feelings. The presence of these people in the dream probably signifies some unresolved feelings with all of them, and links them all in your dream.

Definitely next time just say yes. You never know what might happen. I often chuckle that some of the best times I've had are when I didn't want to go to the party/event/date/bar.

Hope you have nice calm dreams tonight!
Hugs, Lisa

[gan]

Thanks for sharing, raliced and Lisa. Maybe if I keep working through things in my sleep I'll make it to the finish line (where ever that is) in double time ;-)

Sadness has crept back in tonight. From time to time I feel profound regret that I hurt my H to the point that he wanted to leave the R. I know I did the best I could with the tools I had and at some point I will have to forgive myself for my for that. Tonight though, my heart is hurting and I question if I sqandered the opportunity I had with H.

[Ggrass]

Ganb8te

We are on the same continent, thus same time zone..

The whole teary thing, it's comes and goes. Seriously it's nearly a year, and whooospy I had a melt down.

[Little]

No joke, I had dreams about BF cheating before I found out in the real world, before BD. Every time he was getting someone else pregnant (which didn't happen for real, just a PA) and leaving me to go raise the kid with them; it was detailed to the point of him being staunchly unfeeling that he was destroying me by doing it, and he wasn't going to ever change his mind.

I even have a saved text of me telling him "I keep having these dreams you're getting other people knocked up, I don't get it!" and him commiserating and telling me he loved me.

Now he's at least sleeping with (if not more) a woman with a young kid when he claimed he wasn't interested in dealing with kids, at this point in his life.

Strange how crap occurs like that.

[gan]

Thanks, Ggrass and Little, for stopping by.

Ggrass - I had no idea you were from here! I wonder how many others out out there? Sorry to hear that it's been nearly a year for you. In some ways I find the teary times useful as it helps me know I'm not done here.

Little - those dreams are bizarro! Actually I think I did read a story here a while ago where the H did father a child with OW…but they STILL ended up reconciling. The human capacity for forgivenss is astounding sometimes.

[gan]

No substantive updates on my side. It's been a month and 5 days since I last saw H (actually I'm surprised to see that its been that long - felt shorter). I've sent 2 texts since then, with no reply. He goes home for his sister's wedding in a months time. Last time we met up I said maybe well see each other before then and he agreed. We'll see if he initiates but I'm not holding my breath. Not sure if I will either. It will be 6 months on Tuesday since he moved out.

My family - as supportive as they are - don't understand how my H and I could possibly reconcile if we aren't ever interacting. I'm often having to explain to them that H is clearly not ready to talk about it and so I'm not initiating…and then it turns into a bit of an argument and we drop it. Funnily enough though, my mum was telling me about a conversation with her friend - a WAW - the other day. I'm not sure if this WAW ever read DB but it was interesting to hear what she told my mum: that there is dignity in giving him space. If it is going to work out it will, but if not, a dignified divorce is better than the alternative. She also suggested that I join some groups and meet new people. So DB basically.

I still feel uncertain about whether "being dark" is the best approach in my sitch. I was always the one to drive things in our R so can't shake the feeling that I am missing an opportunity to turn things around by not giving H the occasional friendly insight. Trying to control things? Maybe. Or maybe I am just still trying to find what works. In many ways it suits H well that I'm not initiating contact as he doesn't have to confront the issues. But I know it's his sandbox so… If there are any vets out there who had prolonged periods of dark I'd appreciate it if you stopped by once in a while for a bit of reassurance. I seem to be dealing with a bit of a different kettle of fish to a lot of LBS here (no spew, no crazy texts, no anger [I'm not angry], no contact).

Meanwhile, I have to get on with the day. Going to Diner en Blanc with some new girl friends tonight. It's an outdoors dinner in a public space - location yet to be revealed! Last year it was at Bondi beach. We have to wear all white and since my closet is sans white I had to treat myself to a new summer dress and funky shoes. Need to sort out the hair situation, though.

Happy weekend everyone. Get out and GAL.

[Ggrass]

Barrybaryn too.

Um the whole dreams thing I dream all sorts of crapola. I never ever dreamed about h except once many years I ago I dreamed he cheated it was real vivid and she was blonde!

Since bd omg the dreams lots of stuff most he was in bed, I was at his place or he was standing next to the bed.

[LisaB]

Hi Ganb8te, I wish I knew what advice to give you regarding the contact issue. It is so difficult. The advice you get on these boards can be a bit different than the advice in the books. Have you reread DB or DR to see if you can get any insights as to what you could do?

It's true that sometimes what seems like ages of no contact to you could seem like a blink of an eye to a confused WAS. Maybe suddenly he will snap out of it and come around, and maybe contacting him will interrupt his process. I have no idea.

I hope you have a great weekend GALing. The dinner sounds interesting, let us know how it goes?

Hugs, Lisa

[Little]

I'm in the same boat, Gan. No kids means no contact for the most part. He's receptive if I reach out, and we can even share a laugh or two, but I don't know if it's advisable to continually be the one to contact first.

It's so confusing, I feel you on that score.

[gan]

Thanks, Lisa. Oh, yes. I have gone back to DR many a time - particularly the bit on why nothing seems to be working. So much of the book is about what to do when there is contact; there's a lot less I what to do when there isn't.

I don't get guys. So I took myself out for a post-Diner en Blanc breakfast (yes, bacon is involved). I'm sitting at a breakfast bar overlooking the table of 2 guys. By the looks of their breakfasts they also went to Diner en Blanc ;-) Anyway, they have barely said 5 words to each other. What gives? Why go out for breakfast with your mates and not talk?

Last night was awesome - a really special evening. Particularly interesting was the walk back home along the street I described before. I had several exchanges with random people. One girl said I looked gorgeous. One guy said wow as he walked past. And one guy was just thoroughly confused by why I would be walking along said street wearing a long white dress, with flowers in my hair and carrying a beautiful white flower bouquet. He invited me to hang out with his group for the night. I said thanks but no.

By the way - everyone looked so smashing in all white, particularly the guys. I highly recommend you guys out there pick up some fitted white shirts, white pants and shoes. Your W is sure to turn and look!

[Little]

Roll those sleeves to your elbows, too!

[gan]

Oh, yes! Important detail there, Little. Thanks for the amendment. Guys take note!

[Old Dog]

Thanks, Lisa. Oh, yes. I have gone back to DR many a time - particularly the bit on why nothing seems to be working. So much of the book is about what to do when there is contact; there's a lot less I what to do when there isn't.

If it isn't working try something else. My DB coach said to me too many people put too great an emphasis on going dark: it's just one strategy.

And if there's minial contact to begin with, what's the difference? I had this problem as I work away from home. In fact still have it too some extent as I'm too fearful to phone home during the week. If I do phone, my wife's tone of voice sounds as though she thinks I'm being a nuisance.

See if you can spot the elementary mind reading mistake.

I don't get guys. So I took myself out for a post-Diner en Blanc breakfast (yes, bacon is involved). I'm sitting at a breakfast bar overlooking the table of 2 guys. By the looks of their breakfasts they also went to Diner en Blanc ;-) Anyway, they have barely said 5 words to each other. What gives? Why go out for breakfast with your mates and not talk?

Too early for footie chat and if bacon is involved, well ... gotta concentrate (and I'm a veggie).

Last night was awesome - a really special evening. Particularly interesting was the walk back home along the street I described before. I had several exchanges with random people. One girl said I looked gorgeous. One guy said wow as he walked past. And one guy was just thoroughly confused by why I would be walking along said street wearing a long white dress, with flowers in my hair and carrying a beautiful white flower bouquet. He invited me to hang out with his group for the night. I said thanks but no.

So glad you're looking good and feeling fine. Love it :-)

By the way - everyone looked so smashing in all white, particularly the guys. I highly recommend you guys out there pick up some fitted white shirts, white pants and shoes. Your W is sure to turn and look!

What about trousers? Are we allowed to wear trousers? I'd feel a little underdressed with thm.

And what about that hedge? I'm sure to be dragged through it backwards.

[gan]

If it isn't working try something else. My DB coach said to me too many people put too great an emphasis on going dark: it's just one strategy.

I guess I am dark because (1) he's not initiating contact and (2) I'm not too sure what I could do differently. Ideas very, very welcome.

I've tried:
- inviting him for a meet up because "I had some news" (that worked, if "working" is measured by his willingness to have contact with me. We met up, chatted for 30 minutes, then went separate ways. That was a month ago so that exchange didn't "work" to move him in my direction even though I was all PMA, there was no R talk and I ended it first. Talk was pretty serious, not fun…I'm not sure how to lighten the mood in a sensitive way given the circumstances)
- friendly text asking how he is (no response…that was probably just an annoying reminder that I exist)
- friendly text over a practical matter (no response, none required but a thanks would have been nice)

I could try a "I'm going for a walk [near his house], wanna come?" or a "Hey I've got tickets to X, wanna come?" But I think that would be a bit of a jump, and I'm not sure what X should be.

I've previously talked about writing a letter. Before BD, communication using the written word seemed to help H see things differently. Post BD (and before DB), I did send a couple of emails which did not o down well. My IC thinks I should write a letter but that idea didn't get much support around here.

Or I could just leave him be (current strategy). I think there is a risk though that another 6 months will pass without substantive contact and he'll file because we haven't had any substantive contact.

What about trousers? Are we allowed to wear trousers? I'd feel a little underdressed with thm.

Ah. I see there was some confusion stemming from differences in Australian English and English English. Pants = trousers…but I think you knew that Old Dog and were just pulling my leg. I'm just clarifying for those who speak American English ;-)

Hedge is definite concern…but laundry products are pretty good these days if you believe what you see on TV.

[LisaB]

Hi Ganb8te, I loved hearing your story about the dinner and the aftermath walking home. Note to self: wear white dress with flowers in my hair to get attention!

I hope someone has good advice regarding contacting your H. I just have no idea. My ex contacts me all the time, but then everyone tells me to pull back and go dark! haha.

I agree with you and Old Dog that what you are doing is not seeming to work and maybe it is time to try something new.

I'm sure I've read but what was a good aspect of your relationship when things were going well? Did you connect over serious things like current events and books? Did you enjoy eating and drinking together? Did you like to travel or go to hear music?

I'd think about that thing that really connected you the most and try to connect again over that.

For example, if my ex wasn't already talking to me often, I would probably try to reach out to him over food. Maybe suggesting trying a new place in town ("hey have you heard ... opened? shall we go check it out?") or maybe just telling him about something delicious I ate, maybe sending a photo of food I cooked, that sort of thing.

Another way to think about it - try to connect like you would with a distant friend. When I haven't talked to a friend in a while and they contact me and simply say "how are you" it is a little irritating. The onus is on me to come up with a reply topic. If they contact me and say "hey I was thinking of you because I finally saw the film you suggested to me" or "hey I was thinking about you because I found this amazing bacon restaurant and I know you love bacon..." then it is much easier and more natural to respond because there is already a topic.

Does this make sense?

We can maybe give more concrete ideas if you tell us what types of things you connected over?

So he didn't answer your last two messages... were they texts or emails? Maybe try a different medium? Call?

Anyone else have better ideas?

Hugs to you Ganb8te, you are amazing!
Lisa

[gan]

Hey, Lisa. Thanks for stopping by. Your ideas are always so appreciated. Methinks you are quite a creative person, no?

I'm sure I've read but what was a good aspect of your relationship when things were going well? Did you connect over serious things like current events and books? Did you enjoy eating and drinking together? Did you like to travel or go to hear music?

I've spent a couple of days pondering this. The trouble is, I am a glass half full/happiness comes from within kind of person. While this probably served us well a lot of the time, I also wonder if it meant I saw thinks through rose-tinted glasses. When we went to MC just pre-BD, the counselor basically said, WOW you guys seem to really be seeing things differently (in hindsight - she was validating H). So I guess I am now finding it difficult to know if we were really connecting over things. Don't get me wrong, I am not letting H re-write my experiences of the good times, I'm just questioning how he felt about them.

After H said he "wants more fun" the counselor asked when was the last time we had fun. I struggled to come up with something in the moment but went home and wrote down some things in my journal. At the beginning I wrote - not sure if I judge things as being fun/not fun (fulfilling/not fulfilling is probably more accurate). So here's what was on my list (at the risk of getting very personal):

- Camping (relaxation, nature)
- Going to music concerts/festivals
- Exploring Chiang Mai together (indulging in couples massages together, learning that H is an adventurous eater)
- Exploring Kyoto together (food experiences, temples, learning that H likes zen gardens)
- Bayou tour (nature, seeing BIL in his element)
- Business trip to our favorite town (H bought me this ridiculous, teeny bikini to celebrate the fact that I'd walked my a$$ off as part of a cooperate challenge event and my team came #1; I was embarrassed to wear it at the time, but so flattered that he thought I looked good in it)
- Picking out a new sex toy at an XXX store (lead to open honest communication about what we were doing well in the bedroom; unfortunately this was so close to BD I think it was already too little too late)
- Amazing food experiences at high end restaurants
- Making sushi feasts at home
- Making beer at home

So - travel, food, music, beer. Life does't look so bad through my rose-colored lenses.

[gan]

And just for good measure, when things weren't going well (which was not all the time, mind):
- we were arguing over when to start a family, sex
- we were spending too much time with my family at the expense of spending quality time with each (being from different countries, vacation was often spent in one persons country or the other but we failed to do enough new things together during these times as I felt compelled to catch up with my family)
- I was lecturing him about something or other e.g. doing things last minute, alienating himself from his parents
- he was stonewalling me
- I was obsessing over work related stuff and not making him feel wanted
- we were doing the same old thing over and over again (local restaurants, staying at home watching Netflix)
- I was listening but I wasn't really hearing what he was telling me (it would p1$$ me off when he would say I wasn't listening when I knew I was…...but now I see that I was responding with "you shouldn't feel that way because [this is how I see it]" rather than "tell me what I can do to help you feel differently")

And the major revelation that I've had post-BD: we weren't doing enough to keep ourselves moving forward and independently satisfied in our own worlds. We didn't know our individual goals, which meant it was hard to support each other and set goals for the R. We did everything together. When we had new ideas we'd each try to convince the other person to participate. When the other person didn't want to do it one of two things would happen (1) they'd do it anyway and be-grudge it, or (2) they wouldn't do it and the person who wanted to do it would miss out. After reading Passionate Marriage I now have a name for this: WE WERE POORLY DIFFERENTIATED. Classic example: we'd be out and he would want to stay out and wander aimlessly. I don't like wandering aimlessly so I would say no. So he would miss out on doing what he wants to do, or I'd go along and be p1$$y. It's the two choice dilemma: give up the view of how things should be in your mind, self-soothe and enjoy OR hold on to your view of how things should be. We should have just gone our separate ways in these moments and agreed to do something fun together later.

These my friends were our issues and I own my role in all of them all. In many ways this time apart is exactly what we needed to differentiate ourselves, develop independent interests, establish our own social circles, and get to know ourselves. That part is clear in my mind. The rest, not so much.

It's 6 months to the day since he moved out.

[LisaB]

Wow Ganb8te! I'm writing on my phone now but I really want to respond to all this amazing info!
I'll summarize by saying I'll be your new spouse, you sound awesome!

I have some rough ideas of ways to maybe connect. Not sure they are any good, but maybe you or someone else can find a way to build on them.

I also see some similarities with my sitch. I hate that word sitch.. Situation!

I'll write more in a bit. Hugs, Lisa

[Calibri]

Hi Ganb8te,

Just stopping in to say hi and offer support. Six months to the day H moved out stings a bit, I imagine.

I see a few similarities with our stitches. Primarily with alot of the doing the same things, etc.

Long shot, could you invite him out for a local activity that you both had talked about in MC? Might be worth a shot - especially if you emphasize that it's just fun and you remembered he expressed interest in doing it?

I'm keeping an eye on your thread, as I don't have any kids with my H. We're on limited contact and I'm concerned we will get into NC zone. Seeing how other people handle it, gives me a game plan, should that day come.

Hang in there.

[gan]

Thanks, Lisa. You are so kind. I Iook forward to you getting back to your computer to hear your ideas;-)

Hi Calibri - thanks for checking out my thread. Yeah, you can see I am struggling to figure out how to manage the NC zone thing. Or even whether I should manage it. I WISH we had talked about activities we could do to improve things in MC. Unfortunately we never got to that point. That list above - entirely my reflections and revelations on our sitch. If I am angry at anything in all of this, it is the MC for enabling him to move out so damn quickly (yes, I know they say WAS have usually being planning it for a while but I'm not so sure about my H based on the way it happened). Anyway, I'll have a think about your suggestion and see if anything comes up. Thanks again for your offerings of support. Hang in there yourself!

[Nettles]

Hey Ganb8te,

I echo the advice about going NC. I know you think you are, but there are a lot of posts about a text here and an email there from you. You fear going NC will cause H to avoid you for 7 more months and file. Don't be ruled by fear.

Unfortunately, this may take a long time of NC for H to initiate contact. Right now, H expects you to initiate these 'catch ups' and that isn't drawing him in. H is complying.

Can you go 2-3 months with NC? No text, no email, nothing? It may take that.

And when H does suggest getting together, and I think H will, you should suggest something fun. Don't make it an awkward 30 minute sit around. Say "I'd love to get together. I was thinking about doing X. What do you think?" Show off the fun you.

Defer all R talk on that first meeting. "I understand that you want to talk about the R, and we both have a lot to think about, but tonight I just want to have a fun time."

I know it is counterintuitive, but IMHO, upping your attempts at contact aren't going to be successful. I'm praying for you.

[LisaB]

Hey Ganb8te, back at the office and ready to type my novel!

On the one hand I agree with Nettles about continuing a strict NC. But from what you said about your H avoiding conflict and alienating people rather than deal with any unpleasantness, I say maybe give it a few shots to connect and then if that fails, go pitch dark.

Here are some crazy ideas based on what you said you enjoyed together:

1. Tell him about your recent trip to a sex shop and what you purchased (I joke! haha! sorry your list inspired me)
2. It's summer there right? Maybe you could (a) send him a text saying you are at the beach in the tiny bikini he got you, or (b) send him a hot photo of you in that tiny bikini, or (c) both ("thanks for the bikini! rockin it at the beach today!")
3. send him a message like "I started a new batch of beer, this time I'm trying a Saison" or "I signed up for a beer making group, it's super fun" or something related to that activity
4. Send him a text "I found the most amazing shop for sushi fish/sushi accessories" or "ha! look at this hilarious hat that looks like a nigiri roll. remember when we made nigiri? yum!"
5. Send him an email "I found these photos from our trip to ... Check it out, how amazing was that ...(massage on the beach etc)!? I'm thinking of going back/going to X country close by."
6. Don't send a text, call with a plan to say something very short like the above. If you get voice mail the first time, don't leave a message. Call back a day later. If you get voice mail the second time just leave a really short happy message like "I was just calling to say hey! I went to this amazing Zen garden and it reminded me of our trip to Kyoto. Hope you are having a great day! Bye!" Never say sappy stuff or say "call me back". (but you wouldn't I know)
If he answers just say the same short thing you were going to say, describe it a bit more. Then get off the phone quickly. "Just calling to say hi! Talk to ya later! Ciao!"
7. Option 7 is to stay dark. Maybe give it some kind of deadline so you can tolerate it? Say... I won't even think of contacting him until 15 December. Then when 15 December comes you say ...hmmm, can I wait until 25 December?

I have NO CLUE if the above ideas are any good. Maybe they will inspire you or someone else? Maybe they will make someone so irritated that they give you better advice!

Oh and lastly I would like to add that I see my own relationship issues in what you described about being poorly differentiated. I think that can be a common problem with couples that avoid conflict. They both do what the other wants at the expense of themselves, but then no one really ends up satisfied, interesting or interested! Something to ponder further, but I already realized I should have been much more independent and selfish in my relationship.

Hugs to you Ganb8te!
Lisa

[Ggrass]

He y gan,

In my sitch he's been openly cheating for months since bd I did the whole nicey nicey, that did not work in any way shape or from.
His complaint when he complained of every thing before constant now is she doesn't answer my text she doesn't answer my calls.

Now he's right where I was when I was being nicey nicey. He is still attached to the r his laywer letter tells me so. A long involved statement.

I smell fear on his side and loss, but even tho he's sending bestie to stalk me and his taking long distance ow to stores in the hope of rubbing my nose in it. So far he's not a scrap of attention from me and in his case it's all about him.

I suspect it took him about 5 or more months to even notice nc. His laywer letter he talks of seeing gg in passing. Um he hasn't seen gg even in passing unless you call him driving by in traffic or a funeral in July or mediation. None of which is in passing or social.

A few weeks in some cases they sigh, and think how nice it is. You need him to know exactly what it's like when your done.

If you have no children then really really dark.

[gan]

I echo the advice about going NC. I know you think you are, but there are a lot of posts about a text here and an email there from you. You fear going NC will cause H to avoid you for 7 more months and file. Don't be ruled by fear.

I've been waiting for someone to call me out on this. You are right. I haven't been pitch black and H may well still expect me to initiate. I've sent 2 texts in 5 weeks (no other contact) and I was mostly just testing the waters. Can I go 2-3 months NC? I think so….but...

On the one hand I agree with Nettles about continuing a strict NC. But from what you said about your H avoiding conflict and alienating people rather than deal with any unpleasantness, I say maybe give it a few shots to connect and then if that fails, go pitch dark.

This is what I keep coming back to. How much this is factoring into things I just don't know. I do know that I can't control him or force him to work his s%#t. My IC keeps encouraging me to write a letter. She thinks he's depressed (based on my descriptions). I need to go back and re-read that chapter in DR.

BTW Lisa, your ideas are fantastic - thanks so much for putting them together. I just don't think we are there yet. If and when we do reconcile I'm going to come back to this list and plan some fund things around the ideas that you suggested. Thanks!

OK, it's storming out and I'm falling asleep. I'll post more on my plans soon…no need for any action right now except sleep.

[gan]

Just parking this link here so I can come back to it. Something about the way that 25yearsMLC worded this took 180s and GAL to a new level for me.

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...571#Post2514571

Feeling a little down lately and confused about how to proceed. I don't feel like I have a clear plan. As I said on Maybell's thread, DR has lots of great tips but I am finding it hard to apply given that there is no "feedback" from H that helps me understand if I'm on the right track. We also don't have many mutual friends so I'm not getting any feedback through the back door. I guess the question is: is being dark not working and I should try something else, or has it not been long enough? I can definitely do longer, but if it is not working will it do damage?

I did go back and read the chapter on depressed spouses and was curious to read that MWD does say that some spouses have had positive results by writing a letter. Hard to know if that was true even if spouses don't have much to do with each other though.

Ugh…I'm gonna drag myself out for a coffee then go to a special yoga Xmas party class. Gotta GAL.

[Ggrass]

If he's really done or really conflict avoident, then any contact will feel like your chasing.

They need to come forward to you, and it sounding like he's not. Like others, he may thinks your still just waiting, twiddling thumbs.

Mine thinks every things is about him. He can swing it round no matter what.
Taking my possession proof I want to r, leaving them proof I want to r, legal settlement via laywer, asking him to mediation my way of forcing r see a pattern?
He is feeling the rope, due to nothing I have done, he is not detached 12 month date is only weeks away. He is with an ow and is still not detached from me. His drama not mine.

It doesn't matter he sees it from his view. You do what you do not totally because it works for them. It has gotta work for you, first anything else is a plus.

[gan]

Thanks, Ggrass. He's REALLY avoidant and stubborn. I described a little of this here. I think it will take a lot for him to overcome this and consider the alternative to D. Although I have to say that I'm the only person who used that word (back at BD, before finding DB) and he replied with "I didn't say that".

I got no spew at BD. What I got was "I don't know who I am", "I want more fun/spontaneity/passion," "wants to date others", "I don't know what the outcome will be". My take is that he's having a personal crisis, possibly with an OW thrown in (denied at BD, haven't snooped since), but with the limited interaction and few mutual friends I'm left only to my initial observations 6 months ago and a couple of interactions since. I do think he is getting less responsive to emails/texts. Which is why I am questioning whether being dark is not working or if it hasn't been long enough.

[Ggrass]

In my case, I'm pretty sure what's happening now to gg is how h treated his w1. I pretty much think she thought they were working on the m while separated and he picked up her friend. Then traded Friend for me.

I saw her buy expensive gifts of 1k, I saw her have dinner with us as a family I saw him let her live in his house while he took a trip. It's all craze now I look back. I think she tryed to db in a way. She never went dark she chased, threatened suicide, then dated a married bloke she often openly talked at the dinner table with us of meeting another man. Etc.

She hasn't really had a long term r, few flings and now a no hoper she lives with if h is to be believed, she wants out of the house.

Did any of that work for her?
No not really, in fact most of the way she behaved blew up In her face. He never really thought of her as gone. He never thought or saw her change.

After 11 years the best he could come up with was, wow she grew up and matured slightly. After 5 years or so of nc. H still resents her dating tho. What's with that?

[LisaB]

Ganb8te, it sounds like your H and mine have some similarities. Quiet types, introverted a little? Having a crisis maybe?

It seems the extroverted loud ones have crazy crises where they act out and get all emotional and dramatic and make your life a rollercoaster. The quiet ones don't say much just slink off...

I wish I knew what you should do. NC, check in with him, write a letter ... what about a talk with a DB coach?

[gan]

Ggrass - who filed in your sitch? You or him?

Ganb8te, it sounds like your H and mine have some similarities. Quiet types, introverted a little? Having a crisis maybe?

Yep, quiet, pretty introverted, very private and beautifully sensitive. Probably with a bit of depression thrown in to the mix in the last 18 months (back injury -> kept him away from his usual activities outside work).

I had a laugh as I came back from yoga last night. I was envisioning sending a text o H saying "Meet me at [address] at 7pm sharp. Look smart." I wonder if it would make him curious enough to come out and play? It would certainly address the "wants more fun/spontaneity" comment. Or what about "If there's any part of you that wants to stay married, meet me at the midway point on the Bridge at 3pm Saturday." Then we'd hug and make up. Worked for Miranda and Steve…

(Don't worry folks. NOT GOING TO DO IT.)

[Ggrass]

I'm pushing the settlement. He refused to acknowledge ground for one.

He thinks he owns xyz and then I own abc, but he also gets a share of my efg which he considered owed him money. But his equal efg is his alone, in fact he's trying to portray he owned his efg before and won't even be consider it as joint assets.

He's fibbed on separations in the past, every fight was a separation every lone holiday a separation. So I will most likely just get stamped paperwork in the mail.

Who knows? Who knows.

He acts odd when we have had contact really odd. I suspect not detached and is using ow to keep me at bay, why I have no idea none. Most of my conclusions about him are mind reading.

Apart from one thing me and ss25 agree on. H lies, h has no memory and we suspect suffering from demture. Or some such other complaint. His time lines are totally screwed up in his head. Weeks equated to months, but ow been around and is legit for longer than our sep. the time line for her is they have been together ages.

In out case he only talks of the early years, the later years don't exist.
Is all very odd.

[gan]

Well, you seem to be holding up ok Ggrass, so I say stay your course!

[gan]

Just going back over our interaction timeline for my own sake (taking stock):

(2 June, H moves out)
- 7 June, attended mutual friend's wedding, he drove me, there was a little bit of physical contact, he left wedding before I did
- 28 June, attended mutual friend's farewell, he says "he doesn't want to be alone but that he doesn't want to be unhappy either." He seems stressed/angry. Thanked me for giving him space.
(1.5 months pass, including my b'day, no contact)
- 12 August, he initiated contact and invited me to dinner at local pub. He seemed emotional, said it makes him sad to see me, he brought up R and I reinforced my position that I still wanted M
- 14 August, he followed up with text exchange about details for tax return; led to few emails and phone call. I learned he didn't file for legal separation
- 29 August, I emailed requesting help with a credit card payment issue. He replied
- 9 Sept, I emailed requesting his signature to terminate lease. Business like reply
- *22 Sept, I sent text inviting H for drink. H replied - he's busy, didn't suggest alternative time
- 25 Sept, knowing that I was moving soon, H sent text asking when he can pick up his remaining stuff
- *26 Sept, I sent email thanking him for moving some money back into joint account to cover bill. No reply
- 28 Sept, H picks up his remaining stuff from house (Iease was ending), there was a little bit of physical contact, he invites me to dinner at local pub afterward. He seems less emotional. He says "it's nice to see me", "it's not you, its the relationship" and "IF we were to get involved again the R would have to be very different. Right now I don't see how that can happen." Agrees to stay on same health insurance
(3 October, I move into my own place)
- *25 Oct, I ask him to meet up that afternoon as "I have some news" (job promotion). He agrees. He says "it's nice to see me," "sorry, doesn't have much to say." He seems a bit more distant(?) except for some gestures that suggested he still cares about me. No R talk, I end it first. I followed up with "it was nice to see you" text. No reply
- *4 Nov, testing the waters, I sent friendly text "Just did X. Reminded me of you. How you doing?" No reply
- *22 Nov, testing the waters, I sent friendly text letting him know about a billing error that probably didn't require any action from him. No reply

OK so looking at that I can see that there were times when I need not have initiated contact (*). And I've been upping my efforts at contact lately to no success. Well kids? You know what that means……

Let me know if anything else is standing out.

[Ggrass]

Maybe ow?

Mine avoids me like the plague, he has had since oct ow. She was a, sep was jan. He acts very uncomfortable and refuses to answer calls text or anything. Till I took legal action. I don't contact I don't text.

He could just feel pressure in his own mind.

[Nettles]

Well kids? You know what that means……

I have my opinion, but more interested in what you think it means, and what you are going to do.

[Calibri]

I'm going with either OW or a crisis/depression.

Some of the conversations from your H are similar to what my H has said to me.

Hmmmmm......

[gan]

Thanks for weighing in.

OW, depression, early MLC - they are all possibilities.

In terms of what I am going to do:

- no snooping - if he's seeing someone, whatever, it's his decision. I will decide later if we can recover from that, but for now I'm not putting much thought to it
- not going to initiate contact until his b'day (Jan 6, and even then I might not). He's going back to his country to attend his sister's wedding. He'll also meet our nephew for the first time and see his childhood friend who got really angry at H when he said he was moving out. Methinks it will be a confronting time for H
- if H does initiate contact before he leaves I will say yes - and try to make it something fun or new ("There's a new restaurant I want to check out…"). I may have a letter in my back pocket to give to him if it feels right
- spend time with family over the holidays then plan a trip for one to somewhere nice between Christmas and NYE. Not sure if it will be a road trip or if I will fly somewhere...or maybe I will join an adventure group on a multi-day trip
- continue yoga, mindfulness practice - these are now routine, part go my package. What a gift.
- continue to lovingly detach, keep my anger in check and practice compassion for what every H is going through
- research a few more GAL activities for the new year. My volunteering roles dried up at the end of the year so I need to get a few more things going
- continue the 180s - say yes more often, be more calm and friendly in my interactions with people, put on a smily face more often, don't get worked up over work issues…just generally be the person I want to be

[Nettles]

Ok, wasn't what I was thinking.

I was thinking of the importance of what you highlighted in your post. 1.5 months of NC = H initiated contact.

Right now, don't worry what H is dealing with, think about what works for you in drawing H in. We need another 1.5-2 months of NC to see what happens.

[gan]

Thanks, Nettles. That *is* what I was thinking - hence not initiating contact till after new year at very soonest (his bday being a possible interruption to NC). That's about 1.5 months since last contact. If he initiates meanwhile then I will play along.