I cannot accept that this is it.

[billman12]

[quote=25yearsmlc]Billman,

You were vague about what role you played in the marital challenges you face, but you played a huge role. You need to see this asap.

My intention was not to be vague, my intention was to answer the questions.


The GOOD NEWS is that all this means you are NOT POWERLESS to repair things, b/c you only control you, and you are the lynchpin to repairing most of the problems in the marriage, b/c most of them are related to your behaviors.

You say most of them, and that is where I may need help. I know that I am at fault as well, and do not intend to say this is all her fault. I have not yet begun to understand what I did to the extent that deserved this amount of punishment - it does not appear to fit the crime so to speak. I actually thought that after our first Bomb, I thought I was better.

By your own admission, you lack a lot of self awareness. You said you did "not know" or were "not aware" that you have major temper/anger issues AND that you are have an anxiety disorder AND that you a re controlling. You had to have her or others point it out. That's troubling.

The anger issues ended after that time 10 years ago, My anger was under control. The control issues were abundant and I realized those also after the first bomb, and again, i relinquished control at that time. All control. She made all decisions and handled money. We were not 50/50 since getting back together after the first bomb.


Are you in treatment for any of these issues?

No, but I have appts. After going to jail, I have literally 0 dollars in the bank and no cash. I have been working tons of Overtime to make up for this loss, so once money begins to flow again, I will be going to counseling for the anxiety.


Okay, now to your post...

let me say up front, your marital history was quite often very self serving.

I don't understand.

You seem to have double standards that allow you to do things that always have a wordy confusing explanation, which absolves you of responsibility or minimizes your culpability.

Maybe I am just responding in a way that makes sense to me, words are hard for me to get out when I am upset. Again understand this is not my intent to beat around the bush or absolve myself.

Yet you assume the worst about her behaviors and intentions AND you let yourself off the hook on almost everything, but blame her (or OW or life's unfairness I guess) for a lot.

My only argument to this (again not saying I do not deserve blame), she gave up, I did not - she did not have to and I as yet do not understand why her giving up was better than doing more. - especially since I thought things were getting better.


I tell you this NOT To berate you but because You do it, at your peril. If you TRULY want to save your marriage, you must change this behavior - asap.


I understand.


Hey Billman, I feel like I had to PRY out the less flattering facts from you in your story. For future reference that isn't really going to help you, b/c it slows down our search for what will help you the most.

I started the thread with "this will be short" and planned to elaborate with questions, because I did not want to start the thread with a book.

I know how the "rape" situation sounds, thats why I originally used taken advantage of. I have no explanation to this story that will make anyone feel better. If i heard it from someone else I would not believe it either. I was drinking and playing video games. I passed out. I remember very little about before I started drinking and have 10 years worth of trying to figure out the rest of it. She moved to michigan state a month after this (the OW) and there was no contact either was. so no - i had no idea or reason to believe the child s from me.

Even now, you have not come out and said "oh btw I have a child out of wedlock for whom I pay child support, which is money my own family could have used..".

I never intended to sleep with the OW, I was not even emotionally involved with her.

Instead, the tough parts of the story came out in a piece meal fashion that was very confusing to read. . Making it hard to decode makes it look more suspect
Do you get what I'm saying there?

Yes, i suppose my starting the thread the way I did was mistakenly done.

When I asked you why there were trust issues, you said you did not know why.

After the OW for me, I never did anything that gave her a reason to believe I did not deserve her trust. If she was insecure, I would show her whatever she asked for and answer every question, I never hid anything or lied from that point on.

You need to know, for instance, that burning the sheets looks batchit crazy to the rest of the world. But you did it. It also could have your custody rights affected.

I do understand that, but I would like to believe that the fact that it was a last minute and broken hearted thing, might make some difference in view. I get it was crazy, no doubt at all. But i did not plan it in the least.

So I would urge you to SLOW DOWN...

I have done Nothing since the day I went to jail. I am as slow as I can get at this point.

[b]When your emotions get you in trouble, you have to stop letting them decide things for you

^ the nature of anxiety, and knowledge that I need the professional help for.

Also you said you have no friends except for her.That's not good news for either of you.

I understand what you are saying here, but it does not affect me - unless we are in this ordeal. I understand that having friends is nice, but I don't really have an interest. I dont know if I can 'force' my self to have friends.

Having no friends other than your wife is also Not healthy for either of you.
That is way too much pressure to put on a spouse. It means they must fill ALL YOUR SOCIAL and EMOTIONAL needs. We are responsible for our own happiness and self esteem. (Seriously, we are and we always were).

never thought of it that way.

No ONE Person can do all that, or should. It's not healthy and it must have smothered her.
Do you see that now?

Yes



I have dealt with the anger, I no longer have that issue. Same with the control issues. Those are no more.
I was lazy, I did not help around the house.
I was not an attentive father - i did not always help with homework, i found reasons to not go outside and play with them. I did not take them anywhere (park, store, anywhere when i left the house), and certainly did not take them and give her time without them in the house (alone time).
I worked at home, so I was Always at home, and never went anywhere.
I was always in her face, i did smother her.
I was very sexual, but I did not try to romance her.

[billman12]

One more thing:
The GOOD NEWS is that all this means you are NOT POWERLESS to repair things, b/c you only control you, and you are the lynchpin to repairing most of the problems in the marriage, b/c most of them are related to your behaviors.

What does this mean, so long as she is with the OM?

[billman12]

I also have some questions that I will need help with.

The home we lived in, she is living there with the plan to allow it to Foreclose and then move when she has the money. Should we sell it, or should I leave that to her? (Her father gave her this idea), she has not paid the mortgage for 2 months now.

The electric is in my name, I do not live there, do I turn it off?

The car insurance is in my name, do I do anything about that?

Someone told me I should file the separation papers as that would not only 180 my predictable behavior, but also "slap" her in the face - a wake up call. Sounds good, but I feel that is a backfire waiting to happen. I presume that if she wants to do so then it should be her move.

Lastly, how do I talk to her when that time comes. What kind of answers do I reply. It has been suggested that I should avoid discussing us or fixing anything, and I should give the impression that I am finished.

I am not asking these questions for "answers", but more for guidance. I do not want to make mistakes, especially the anxiety prone decisions and reactions based on my emotions.

[25yearsmlc]

One more thing:
The GOOD NEWS is that all this means you are NOT POWERLESS to repair things, b/c you only control you, and you are the lynchpin to repairing most of the problems in the marriage, b/c most of them are related to your behaviors.

What does this mean, so long as she is with the OM?

Wow, that question surprised me and makes me a little sad.

I would like to think it means that you are going to work on becoming a better man b/c that's what you want to do.

BECAUSE IF THE ONLY reason you'd work to improve yourself is to get your wife back, then the changes are NOT authentic, they are tactical. And they won't last b/c they are not real.

You have to want to become a better man, b/c YOU WANT to be the best man you can be.

Do you see ^^^that? Does that makes sense?

Also, no matter what SHE does, you would be in a much better place emotionally, by making these changes. The changes I'm thinking of are changes that will help you be a happier man. (I have suggestions for how to get started - but right now I feel as if you need persuading to believe in it as a concept).

You'd be a more loving involved man and less of a spectator in life. The comment you made about not being interested in having any friends, to me,

sounds a lot like someone who says "I am lonely but I am so used to it that inertia has kept me frozen and stuck and I am paralyzed".

But maybe you need to ask yourself this:

WHAT is more frightening ---, to go on living like this and probably lose your wife for good, and an intact family, and to be distant from your children the rest of your life...

OR to make changes? Overcome your inertia and fear and that will be a start.

[billman12]

Do you see ^^^that? Does that makes sense?

Im sorry it was context, I meant what would that mean to her as long as she is with the OM. I want to do this for myself, I have become lazy and settled and need to get out of that slump. I just want to understand the mindset of why these changes would matter to her if she is "happy" with the OM.

Also, no matter what SHE does, you would be in a much better place emotionally, by making these changes. The changes I'm thinking of are changes that will help you be a happier man. (I have suggestions for how to get started - but right now I feel as if you need persuading to believe in it as a concept).

You'd be a more loving involved man and less of a spectator in life. The comment you made about not being interested in having any friends, to me,

sounds a lot like someone who says "I am lonely but I am so used to it that inertia has kept me frozen and stuck and I am paralyzed".

But maybe you need to ask yourself this:

WHAT is more frightening ---, to go on living like this and probably lose your wife for good, and an intact family, and to be distant from your children the rest of your life...

OR to make changes? Overcome your inertia and fear and that will be a start.
[/color] [/quote]

I need changes, I have no doubts about that. This past two months have told me this at least, if nothing else.

[25yearsmlc]

I also have some questions that I will need help with.

The home we lived in, she is living there with the plan to allow it to Foreclose and then move when she has the money. Should we sell it, or should I leave that to her? (Her father gave her this idea), she has not paid the mortgage for 2 months now.

Whoah, I thought you wanted to save your marriage....you don't figure these things out like this when that's a goal. (But see a lawyer if you need to protect your legal interests. IF you are willing to lose the family home, I'm taken aback).


The electric is in my name, I do not live there, do I turn it off?

Why would you have the electricity turned off? You have your wife and children there. What is your goal? Don't you think you'd have to pay some form of support to your wife for your kids? You want to take the food out of the refrigerator since you aren't living there? (Do you see how this sounds?)

DECIDE WHAT YOUR GOAL IS and then, make choices based on the goal and not on your emotions of the moment.

But turning the power off where your family lives does not sound like it would ever be a defensible choice. It's not loving, it's not responsible and it comes off as petty and vindictive or at best, clueless.


The car insurance is in my name, do I do anything about that?


See above...

Someone told me I should file the separation papers as that would not only 180 my predictable behavior, but also "slap" her in the face - a wake up call.



READ THE DB BOOKS and think a lot more before you DO anything.

Whoever suggested you "Slap" her in the face must not be on this board. And listening to the angry folks and those who want you to "Teach her a lesson" are going to confuse you a lot. (As my DB coach said, "it's not our job to 'teach our spouse a lesson' or 'show them consequences', b/c LIFE Does that.")

Honestly, Billman, I think you need to decide if you want to work on your marriage or just end it.

For a man who says he no longer has an anger issue, a lot of what you are asking sounds like someone who wants to punish his wife for leaving him, even though you are the one to have suggested the divorce.

Don't gloss over that, again. You omit important facts but it does not help you; it slows down your increasing your awareness and progress. I'd avoid doing that if I were you).


Sounds good, but I feel that is a backfire waiting to happen. I presume that if she wants to do so then it should be her move.

How does it "sound good?" Man you confuse me.

If you are HERE, it's b/c you want to save your marriage or better yet, repair and remake it into a healthy loving marriage. So no, you don't file for a separation if you don't want it.

Here in DB land, We tend to let our spouses do the work of ending the marriage, not us.

Yes, I filed for a sep b/c I did not want my h to mortgage our home as an "investment" with his Alaskan heroes, which he might have done. But I did NOT file it to end our marriage - but to protect our assets.

HERE ^^^^ You would be doing it as a tactic and it WILL backfire. Just like your "test" question about "offering" her a divorce. You say she jumped at that comment so why wouldn't she just jump at this?
You would also save her the filing fees...in your situation, it's a VERY BAD idea. (I suggest you get advice from people other than the person who told you this would "wake her up" or "Slap her face" (are they in a happy marriage?)

I cannot imagine it helping anything, whereas I can imagine about 5 ways it will end the marriage sooner - and maybe make it a lot easier for your wife to move on. IS that what you want?



Lastly, how do I talk to her when that time comes. What kind of answers do I reply. It has been suggested that I should avoid discussing us or fixing anything, and I should give the impression that I am finished.

I urge you to read the LONG "book" I posted to you. In that, I listed a lot of specific advice for you to use as a guide. I would refer you back to that.

In a nutshell, acting as if you are "finished" is NOT the way to go, but there are a lot of ways to show that you are moving forward out of respect for her stated desires. They are covered in those 40 guidelines.

You can be regretful about the end of a marriage (who wouldn't be?) but without being whiny or needy or clingy. Like you know that even though it's sad to divorce, you are confident you will be happy again and not lonely, etc.

Again, go and read those 40 "rules".

I carried them around with me for months, I even laminated them. Literally.


I am not asking these questions for "answers", but more for guidance. I do not want to make mistakes, especially the anxiety prone decisions and reactions based on my emotions.

The 40 Newbie Guidelines will help a lot with this. Mainly remember to do this:

Figure out your goal(s) and then

ACT in accordance with YOUR GOALS, NOT YOUR EMOTIONS.

When a dilemma presents itself and you have more than one option, ask yourself this about each option:

"Will this get me closer to a reconciliation, or farther?

IS this act or remark, coming from a healthy or loving place in my heart,

OR a wounded ego, or an angry spiteful part of me?

I often had the urge to "teach" my h a lesson and I used the euphemisms of "fairness/justice!!" to mask what really was my desire to lash out. My ego was badly bruised and I was hurting. Plus I can be very self righteous.

Thing is, I rationalize well. So I really had convinced myself that I was "only being honest/FAIR" - when in reality, usually I was hoping to "Slap" his face and "Wake him up" and to make him pay for leaving me or for not choosing us over a beloved JOB.

And I was WRONG to do that. I'm a much more honest person now, and a more loving (and loved) woman as a result of this ordeal. MY DB coach was a Godsend to me, truly. She mentioned, often, giving my husband something to miss, to BECOME A WOMAN ONLY A FOOL WOULD LEAVE...

(And that is an upside to this "ordeal". I am better for it and you can be too. So no matter what happens to this marriage you will be much better able to be in a healthy loving relationship in the future, hopefully with your wife, but regardless, you'll be in a stronger R).

I think I can recognize it when someone else is using euphemisms to mask their wounded ego. Your pride has been hurt. I get that. But don't let that blind you to what yo have put your wife through.

You touched (VERY briefly) on how you mistreated her in the first years of your marriage, though again, you were vague. I am also not sure when that changed or why OR how (or whether it really did improve, or you are just thinning it did).

But if you don't want to be that guy again, then let's get to work on you.

You need to Get A Life.

Why don't you want to have friends? Do you see anything unhealthy (or unloving or UNfun or interestING) about that, now?

Billman, People who have no friends, TEND to be uninteresting and self centered.

I am not saying you are. I am saying you need to think about that...and

be brave so you can DIG DEEP. These are not easy issues Billman. I know that.

But change takes time and effort. Do Keep on keeping on...

[billman12]

the family home thing was about the OM being in our room in our bed. But after your response, If i forgave her then the room means nothing.

when i meant slap in the face I meant a wake up call to what she is loosing, or throwing away. Not a your an idiot slap.

you wrote:
Don't gloss over that, again. You omit important facts but it does not help you; it slows down your increasing your awareness and progress. I'd avoid doing that if I were you).

I would like to mention that i have never expresses things well, and have always been told i embelish or "say too much". I want you to understand that I would love for my marriage to work and be saved. When I reply I am just giving answers, please do not presume that my answer is a direct reflection of my thought.

I have Always had a hard time with semantics, and wording things is sometimes difficult.

I remember a day when my wife asked me if i liked the Superman movie with Brandon Routh - i spent 15 minutes explaining what I did and did not enjoy with the movie. She listened with a smile and replied, "so, you liked it".

I am not always sure whether to elaborate or just condense. and again. I am asking the questions for a reply and for confirmation of my own opinion - and especially for me to make a proper decision and not an emotionally justified moment or irrational thought.

[25yearsmlc]

There are 2 other "pieces" to this, I think you should have in your "arsenal." One piece is GAL (and the other piece will follow later.)

This is In addition to becoming THE INVOLVED father your kids would no doubt love you to be, (even if they act weird about it at first.) Aside from your wife noticing, b/c she will and that will come from the kids, not you, it will make you feel better and will reassure your kids that you have no intention of dropping out of their lives. To me, a lot of your behavior sounds depressive. But I'm not a shrink. Maybe you can discuss that with your counselor.

Below is what I did to Get A Life and where I was, it wasn't easy. But it made an even bigger difference in almost every aspect of my life, than I hoped.

Think of things you "always to do" or "used to" want to do but..." and DO THEM.
Hobbies, places, classes, etc.

For GAL suggestions, here is some of what I did when we lived in the interior of Alaska, including in the winter.

I had 3 kids then, including a baby & toddler (so I don't want to hear about how you are 'too busy' to GAL).

Most of these activities involved meeting other people. To me, that is key to NOT obsessing about your spouse (or in my case, my h.)

You need to get your mind OFF your wife and OM. Some of these are "quieter" actiities if you strongly prefer. But you need to get out of your rut and spark things up and you must meet SOME NEW people or you won't get the stimulation and interest that you need, to stop the obsessing and to get your mind on something useful and NEW and NOT your wife.

A few months after back surgery I was in a show. At a rehearsal I suddenly realized that 3 hours had passed without me noticing my back pain, though I'd been standing for most of that time.

I was pretty surprised. So I REALLY processed that and took it in, thinking "mind over matter" can work! So later on when I was in the midst of this nightmare, I did some theater again.

Sure enough, there's nothing like an live audience to get your mind to focus and zero in on your lines and NOT obsess about a person you have no control over who isn't even there...

I'm just letting you know that whatever thing you can imagine totally occupying your mind for a few hours at a time, (a game of chess does it for some), DO MORE OF that thing.

Inertia is the greatest enemy to GAL. Overcome that, & you'll be well on your way to a happier more fulfilling life. IMO, the more you overcome inertia, the better your R's will be with all people, including your w.

I volunteered at a battered women's shelter.

I coached a girl's softball team for two summers (my older D was on it).
I was on the board of directors for Wrestling, ( our son wrestled).

I auditioned for community theater and met some fun creative people. I got cast, too.

I did stand up comedy (and yes, I still do it). I did a whole set once on a MLCs at the Hollywood Improv. It went very well.

I learned to cross country ski, became a better shooter.

I Learned to hunt big game, to deep sea fish, & I got better at downhill skiing.

I learned to use a snowmobile ("snow machine" to Alaskans)
I loved riding.

Learned to fly a plane, and I got a pilot's license.

Went skydiving! I loved it so much I did it again. I plan on doing it again, soon. I've taken 2 of my 3 kids as well. LATER on, my h and I did it for my birthday, together...

Edited a book. (The book ended up on the Best Seller's List. Who knew?)

I Worked out 3-4 times a week, and I really did get in excellent shape. Looking good made a world of difference to me. Found a work out partner and began socializing after the work outs.

(Plus I'd just had our last child and needed to lose the baby weight. It was not easy to do, let alone in the dark, deathly of their long LONG cold winters).

In the winter, I used a tanning booth, which helped me a lot with depression. I felt more energized, and it probably helped my appearance, which also helps us FEEL better.

Saw a therapist and for some months, & I went on ADs.

Took a pottery class (very odd for me to do, but I liked it a lot).

Joined the Officer's Wives club after 15 years of active duty.

(Wish I had joined sooner! Met two women who are life long friends to this day.)

Joined a writer's group
Took a class in Conversational French Class,

Took a class in Italian cooking - delicious!

There is more, but I just wanted to suggest to you a few things you can do that do not cost a lot.

Other than pilot training, most of these ^^ activities were free, or quite cheap.

[25yearsmlc]

Last but not least, is this final piece.

It's about marriage and the expectations/hopes men & women have of each other today. You said your wife did not drive and you implied that you had something to do with that choice. Maybe you did not want her to drive and told yourself it was for safety reasons, or whatever.

But if you are from a western culture (I can't tell if you are by the nature of the posts so far), you really ought to at least consider this perspective.

My "caveman theory" & comments are based on a survey that revealed the 2 things mates most valued in their spouses. (My apologies for any typos or odd sentences/clauses, but it's really late and I have to get up early in the morning.)

What Men valued most in their wives was, first, their "attraction" to their wives. Perhaps this is a "trophy value" factor, and sexual attraction is just what the anthropologists said it is, plus it may mean a superior mate for children too.

The second most valued trait in wives was "peace at home" which was interpreted as, more or less "no nagging". The experts said men want to be admired in their marriages. I definitely believe that. (Then again, who doesn't want that?)

What Women most valued in their h's, 1) Security; (financial, physical & emotional).

This is interpreted to mean We want to feel protected, and a man who is a good provider is also very attractive to us. That's especially so when there are children.
(I personally know some women who stay married solely because their husbands are "good providers and or "Good fathers", so yes, those are important traits to us).
Women want to know that there will be a roof over our baby's head and food on the table, AND that our h's are not gambling away the money, or spending it on OWs or getting lost in the woods...

We need to know that our men take care of their bodies -(in part to keep US safe, in part to be healthy and live long, and to look good for us!!!)

We need to know that our man will stop a bad guy from hurting us, which also helps us feel secure and protected.

Secondly, women most valued "Fidelity" - and that seems self explanatory. I think it has been in the back of your wife's mmd for a long time.

I asked before but don't recall getting an answer, but is the child part of your life at all? Have you met him/her, and or have your kids?

Now, on the security level, you have to wonder how safe your wife felt with you.

You were "inert"? You say you were inattentive and inactive with her and the kids, so I think she did not feel safe with you, in terms of what would happen to the kids if she wasn't around AND whether you would really "Show up" for her.

There are a lot of ways women can feel unprotected by their mates.

Like not standing up for her with your family would be a huge one, or being bad with money, (not that you are, just a comment.
Or, bad mouthing her to others, or involving your family in private matters,

and certainly blaming your wife for any of your choices feels disloyal and unproductive.

And not being able to provide for the home and family is another big way for a woman to feel unsafe and unprotected by her mate.

My "caveman" theory is that at some level we feel, down deep maybe at a biological level, when the man goes out of the cave - the woman stays behind with the baby, (the baby that is unquestionably the man's child)

and the man expects that baby to be cared for while he's gone,

and the fires should still be going, kindling gathered, and

the Woman expects the man to bring back some meat or at least berries, and he needs to come back on time, or she'll worry, and if the saber toothed tiger comes back, the woman protects the child and backs up her h, but HE fights the tiger if he is there. He Helps her feel safe and provided for, with the children...


I think women DO want to be protected, and when there are kids, provided for - and men Do want to be admired and seen as having an attractive mate, preferably one who is attracted to him, or at least warm & affectionate even if she has low sex drive.

When a man loses a job, we all know it can often cut him to the core. But we may skim over how insecure it makes the wives feel, especially if they are depending on their mate to "bring home the meat", & especially if they have children. I think at least part of this is biological, even these days.

I'm a professional with very good income potential, but I admit I take pride & comfort in my h's work & income. I very much value knowing I can stay at home with our children if we need to, and that he will have it all covered.

Last year our youngest had some serious medical issues that required a lot of time at home and I thank God (and my h) that I was able to take all that time off for her.

If I HAD to work when our child needed me at home b/c my h did not earn enough, at some level I probably would have felt disappointed or sad.

So when you lost those jobs, and damaged your credit, I would not dismiss her belief system and values quite so fast by calling her "materialistic",.

I think her fears about money are probably very real and deep.

Learning to see her point of view is about having empathy. No marriage or friendship is deep and good, without empathy.

I would like to hear more of that from you, about your wife. Know what I mean?

There is hope!

[billman12]

Last but not least, is this final piece.

I asked before but don't recall getting an answer, but is the child part of your life at all? Have you met him/her, and or have your kids?

No the child is not a part of my life. and the OW has said she does not want me to b. I do however pay support.

Now, on the security level, you have to wonder how safe your wife felt with you.

You were "inert"? You say you were inattentive and inactive with her and the kids, so I think she did not feel safe with you, in terms of what would happen to the kids if she wasn't around AND whether you would really "Show up" for her.

I believe I was always available. I was I think overprotective of the children, to the point that I stunted their ability to have fun in an attempt to keep them safe i.e. could not be barefoot in the yard, afraid they would hurt their feet. I did not cook meals and always made easy food - sandwiches, mac & cheese, lunchables, simple things.

There are a lot of ways women can feel unprotected by their mates.

Like not standing up for her with your family would be a huge one, or being bad with money, (not that you are, just a comment.
Or, bad mouthing her to others, or involving your family in private matters,

I always defended her, I never bad mouthed her to my family.


And not being able to provide for the home and family is another big way for a woman to feel unsafe and unprotected by her mate.

I was not a good provider, i see that now more than ever. My only defense is that the mortgage at least, was always top priority, whilst the other bills suffered.

He Helps her feel safe and provided for, with the children...


I did fail at this in the grand scheme.

I think her fears about money are probably very real and deep.

I see that now.

I would like to hear more of that from you, about your wife. Know what I mean?

Anything I can answer I will.

There is hope!