Gogofo - no longer piecing 2nd BD

[gogofo]

So I had a second BD this past Wednesday night. I came home from hunting and the W seemed upset and tense. We started talking and she said she was done and wanted me to move out back to my house again. This was quite a shock, I knew we were in a backslide, but did not know it was this serious.

Two weeks prior I was asked to move in and we were planning on selling my house, our previous marital home. There were a couple of triggers going on, but this definitely is quite a turn from her asking me to move in, saying she thought we don't need MC, telling me how much I have changed, and that we can work through anything.

She basically rattled off a list of what she doesn't need me for and asked what do I have to offer her? Quite the question. I responded with fulfilling her life and giving her that same feeling she had when she asked me to move in. She just kind of shook her head and said she didn't know.

She is also still harboring a lot of anger towards me and is now upset and discrediting some of my new changes and actions.

So I went back basically to LRT except when she contacted me about bringing kids over tonight.

Brought kids out to her and asked if I could stay till bedtime, another 2 hours. Not going to lie, it wasn't just about the kids, wanted to be around her too.

Put kids down and the oldest asked me if I was sleeping there tonight, damn that hurts. The night before he asked me into his bedroom after I put him down and said that he didn't want me sleeping there, he wanted me and mommy to sleep together.

So I was hurt and wanted to tell the W about it. I wanted her to feel the pain because when we were talking about me moving out again she talks like it is the end and said that the kids don't even mind, they are excited to sleep back at my house. She talks as if us divorcing will not even affect them.

So understandably she was instantly upset and told me to leave. I was hurting and hung out for a couple minutes until she put her hands up and gave me the look. Man I totally f'ed up DBing right there, I knew better but my emotions were so raw. I know it is not our job to show the WAS their errors or to punish them.

Now I guess I should go totally dark. It would be a 180 in my actions as I always want to discuss things and hug or embrace when I get upset or stressed and have tough talks with the W.

Last BD I took most of the blame as I was not a good spouse. But now I think stress and external factors are pushing us apart and making her scared. I think she has some personal work to do.

I don't think it is that easy to go from feeling so secure in our relationship, being very sexual towards me, deferring a trip out of town to get a house ready to sell and then two weeks later feeling ready for a D. To me it seems that the stress and anxiety triggers we have this time of year are killing her. She said she was going to take care of herself for once, which was part of the same reason she used on BD 1. She also said she is sick of living in limbo. So she wrote her own future, this version without me when two weeks ago I was in that version.

So now I lay in bed kicking myself for bringing up our oldest's request for us to be together. I need to sharpen my DB skills as I may not have another chance to work this out.

[MrBond]

"There were a couple of triggers going on, but this definitely is quite a turn from her asking me to move in, saying she thought we don't need MC, telling me how much I have changed, and that we can work through anything. "

This was the issue. It took BOTH of you to get to this point. If she doesn't want to go to MC, then she will never understand that and always look to YOU as being the person with the keys to making her happy. It doesn't work that way. M is a give and take. Unfortunately she didn't learn that.

I would definitely NOT have said you were Piecing since she took no personal responsibility to making your M work. Sorry to hear that.

[gogofo]

This was the issue. It took BOTH of you to get to this point. If she doesn't want to go to MC, then she will never understand that and always look to YOU as being the person with the keys to making her happy. It doesn't work that way. M is a give and take. Unfortunately she didn't learn that.

I would definitely NOT have said you were Piecing since she took no personal responsibility to making your M work. Sorry to hear that.

Bond, thanks for your insight. I think we were piecing, or were at times. I could definitely tell when she was trying because things were good. The last trip we took on September 26th was amazing and she felt it too. She was trying and I have never stopped and it was evident.

Now she takes my changes and actions of caring as negative. She told me she loves flowers, multiple times when reconciling and so I have kept her in flowers ever 2 weeks. I come home with flowers and replace the old flowers with the new ones. I also showed consideration when she took trips, giving her a bag with road snacks and a bottle of wine for when she gets there.

Before I went hunting on the 12 I put together a new flower arrangement, went and bought food and snacks for her and the kids because she was getting in late on Sunday and would not be able to go to the store and I also wrote her a heart felt card. The card described how I deeply cared about her but did not always show it appropriately, how important she is to me, how I will miss her, how I looked forward to our date on Friday and how excited I was for her to spend time with her friends on Saturday. I opened my heart and tried a new communication technique to see how it would work.

On Friday when she was unloading my stuff at my house I asked to talk with her. She stated that the flowers were nice, but she already can do that for herself, the food was the same thing. She said it was no big deal and why should I be praised when it was something she had done previously in our relationship and it was taken for granted. Then she took the card and said she had to stop and think if I was one of the most important things in her life. Basically took my whole group of loving gestures and crapped on them until they were discredited and became negative.

Quite a shift from us planning on selling a house and moving together just two weeks previously.

It feels like she is trying hard to find reasons not for us to be together. I can tell the root of this is her pain from the past as she went back to our previous relationship problems and applied them to us now.

I would like us to understand each other and go to MC. When I mentioned it on Friday she said she "doesn't have the time for MC" which is pretty much the truth.

I am genuinely concerned about her stress and how she feels and I think I will write her an email reaching out to her. I will post it here for review and to get opinions on it.

Thanks for the help and insight

[gogofo]

Here is the email I am thinking of sending to the W. My intention is to apologize for what I did last night with our oldest wanting me to sleep at mommy's house, express that I agree with some of the decisions she has made and that I also see issues with us. My intention also is to hopefully get us talking about us and our issues, but on her timeline.

My fear is that this may push her to move closer to dissolving what is left of our relationship. Don't know if I have any basis to this fear or not.

Please let me know what you think about it.

Wife,

I was wrong for bringing up the kids comments about where I am sleeping. I was hurting from this and decided to deflect that pain off of myself. This was totally unfair and disrespectful to you. I need to deal with my own pain myself. I am the only one who can deal with my feelings and issues. I am deeply sorry for hurting you and expecting you to help me with this.

You are right and I agree with you that we need to be back in our respective homes and deal with our personal stresses. They are creating issues in our lives and making everything feel overwhelming and that there is no end in sight. We are both harboring personal stresses and they need dealt with. It is unfair for me to be at Quadrant and have you also share the stress and burden of the house at Emerald. I need to focus my attention on the situation at Emerald and get it taken care of. Splitting my time and attention between two houses is not improving the situation at any of them. As great as it felt moving in together, I agree that it was premature as there was internal housecleaning that needed to be done. I understand feeling the highs we feel as being the real us and feeling the lows we feel as being the real us. We are coming into a stressful part of the year with us having less and less time to accomplish the required tasks we have and also work on us becoming closer.

When we talked the other day we each talked about how much stress we were under. When you were at work on Sunday I was happy that since I had the kids you were able get all of your work and school finished. It helped me understand how having us living together would have you feel limited in you time and stressed. Your work took longer than initially anticipated and you needed extra time. When I put myself in your shoes I could see how if I was thinking about you at home with dinner and the kids I would feel like I was under another deadline that I do not need. I would have felt that you made your life and having dinner more important than me and my work and school life. This would make me feel like I was living under someone else’s schedule and I was not as important as the other person. It helped me understand how you feel about not having enough time and how having us living apart right now allows you to feel more free and in control of your time.

Last night I could still see you were stressed out and when we talked about the weeks to come I could see the stress in your body and how you talked about what you have scheduled. I am deeply concerned about all the stress you are under and the mental and physical toll it is taking on you. It was disheartening to hear you talk about not feeling much relief in your stress after getting your grading and school work done. I know you were exhausted and stressed about what is coming with your classes and work and Chicago trip. The language you used to talk about this was “I just have to get it done” and “I will get it done, I always will.” This is heart breaking to hear because this stress is affecting your personality and attitude and it really is concerning to me. I care about you and am concerned when you are feeling this way.

We are both carrying different types of stress and I feel we need to better understand what each of us in going through. If and or when you are ready, I would like us to talk with each other about this.

[gogofo]

I am thinking of sending the email and then going minimal contact until she decides that she would like to discuss us and how we feel.

[MrBond]

"I could definitely tell when she was trying because things were good."

Wrong. That's not trying. That's just sweeping things under the rug.

"The last trip we took on September 26th was amazing and she felt it too. She was trying and I have never stopped and it was evident."

Nope. Again, more rug sweeping. Just doing something fun together is just a band-aid to the problems underneath. It's avoiding the issue and doesn't work. Marriage problems are like a cancer. You can try to cover it up and pretend it isn't there. But it will grow and fester and come back ten times worse.

"Now she takes my changes and actions of caring as negative."

Yes because she didn't deal with this the first time.

"She told me she loves flowers, multiple times when reconciling and so I have kept her in flowers ever 2 weeks. I come home with flowers and replace the old flowers with the new ones."

Too much. See, you've made it all about YOU "making" her happy. No one should be responsible for another person's happiness.

"I also showed consideration when she took trips, giving her a bag with road snacks and a bottle of wine for when she gets there."

And what has SHE done for you?

"It feels like she is trying hard to find reasons not for us to be together."

No. You give her anything she wants and you reward bad behavior. She has no reason to change if she's going to keep reaping the benefits.

"I can tell the root of this is her pain from the past as she went back to our previous relationship problems and applied them to us now."

Issues from the past are understandable. But if you don't actually do something about it, the same problems will arise.

"I would like us to understand each other and go to MC. When I mentioned it on Friday she said she "doesn't have the time for MC" which is pretty much the truth."

You're actually making excuses for her. You MAKE the time. You went hunting. She does her own thing. You have the time. She just doesn't want to go.

[Card29]

I would like us to understand each other and go to MC. When I mentioned it on Friday she said she "doesn't have the time for MC" which is pretty much the truth.

I agree with everything MrBond said, although I do think you should try to fill her love bucket (only a flood of flowers and cards is probably not going to do it, though). But I feel like I should second his take on this specific point. You both have to make your M your #1 priority, behind safety and necessities of your children. If she literally has no time to work on your M, then her life is in absolute turmoil. I'm assuming she has somewhat normal responsibilities, though, in which case there IS time. Like Bond said, she doesn't want to.

[gogofo]

Nope. Again, more rug sweeping. Just doing something fun together is just a band-aid to the problems underneath. It's avoiding the issue and doesn't work. Marriage problems are like a cancer. You can try to cover it up and pretend it isn't there. But it will grow and fester and come back ten times worse.

Wow, never thought about it this way. I thought it was symbolic of her seeing us from here of forward. I thought she was seeing us as newly changed people. She even wrote that too me. But just like you said, whamo! Here are the problems back and bigger than ever.

We both must have done some rug sweeping because we both suggested and refused MC. Boy if only I knew. I would not have been so arrogant to think we were working through things.

When I refused I think it may have been the one time she made an honest effort at piecing. She brought up he PA during our S and wanted to tell me. Don't know if this was piecing or just her clearing her mind. We did have a good talk about it and since I had dealt with the possibility of these feelings I thought we didn't need MC to get through it. Our R felt strong at that point.

On different news, I am going to wait on sending the email.

I also have my first coaching session tonight at 10:00 and I am really excited.

[MrBond]

Definitely don't send her the message. That's YOUR thinking and you're still taking on all the blame for your R failing. More of the same which didn't work the first time.

[gogofo]

Thanks for the clear and direct response, it definitely helps.

[labug]

So you'e back where you were, keep working on you.

You've made a start.

Keep at it.

Remember, marathon, not sprint. You're reconciliation happened very quickly, take some time. She may decide she wants to do MC at some point, or not.

You can do this.

[gogofo]

Thanks for the support and the positive outlook, Bug. I am excited right now, only 90 minutes to my first coaching session.

[gogofo]

Had first coaching session last night and it was great. I told her my marital history and she had some good insight into us and the situation that I had not considered or thought of.

She offered support and hope and I was feeling really charged about working on my DBing. I know I get too high and don't have realistic expectations when I start into it, but she has me feeling optimistic now.

I need to recenter and be more realistic about where my situation is. I know my excitement during our attempted reconciliation had me avoiding big questions and issues in our R.

[MrBond]

Did you tell her who you were on these boards?

[gogofo]

When asked how I came to find DBing I mentioned the board in passing. I was not specifically asked if I was on the boards.

I will make a note to tell her next session. Is it important she knows that I am fairly active on here?

[gogofo]

W came to house this morning to get kids ready for school so I could go to work. Not much of an interaction, I asked how her night was she said good, she asked back and I said good.

Back to dry interactions again, I remember how this was in January. Seems like she has had a large back slide to where she felt she was early on in our S the first time. Not sure the exact reason or if it was multiple little things again.

Wished we would have done work on us and our relationship. Reading the 7 Principles of Making a Marriage Work by direction from my coach. There are passages that give me hope and passages that hurt my heart, but it is apparent that we did not work hard enough on our past issues.

My current goals are to try and open up conversation with the W and increase how much we say when we interact. Try to build upon our friendship. The ultimate goal is to get us to be able to be with each other on our 8th Anniversary on November 17th.

Need to plan changes and steps in me that can facilitate this. I have identified a 180 I need to do. I need to be more expressive of my feelings. I am better than before, but I need to be explicit. When people give me comfort and joy and need to express it so they know. When I feel uneasy or confused or flooded by emotion I need to express this too.

During our attempted reconciliation I did not express my uneasy feelings easily as I was worried I would send my W running. I would find ways to deal with them. My emotional sharing had increased, but only with positive emotions about our R. I could express negative or difficult emotions about others or work stress, but not about us. Bad idea if we were trying to rebuild. Another reason I think we need MC.

[MrBond]

It's not important for her to know, but I figured that it might give her more of an insight on your situation that you might not have been able to cover in your session.

[gogofo]

I attended an inspirational seminar this morning, A Passion For Service, and even though the teachings and techniques were applied to business I was taking them and applying them to my personal life. After all what are customers other than another relationship that is valuable to nurture and keep healthy.

Most of his talk focus on being a good listener, empathizing, being enthusiastic, effective communication skills, honor, respect, etc. Just about everything any good relationship book will tell you.

The part that hit home to me was when he talked about sharing in the dreams of other people and honoring and respecting them and their dreams. This is an issue between me and the W as I am not properly communicating my sharing in her dreams and future. I am sending the message and it is not in the proper way.

He also said a key phrase that hit me (because I had read similar suggestions but forgot about them), he said that instead of saying “no problem” say “it would be my pleasure”. He said that using this phrase can make a big difference in how people perceive and understand what you are telling or doing for them. In my interpretation it shows them that you are happy and willingly doing this for them. Saying no problem can give the perception that “Since I do not have a problem with it, I will do it for you. If I had a problem with it, I would not be helping you out.”

Big, big, big for me as this was my go to phrase and now I understand how my message of caring was lost in its delivery.

So I have been thinking about my short term goal of opening dialog to get to my long term goal of her wanting to talk more about us or the R. I also was thinking about my 180 of openly expressing my feelings, both good and bad; so I decided to send my W a text message of thanks.

On Tuesdays and Thursdays she teaches until 8:30 at night so it was decided that I would have the kids these nights, which makes sense. But I have to be to work at 7:00 in the morning so when they stay the night she has to wake up around 5:30, get ready for work, and drive across town to my house by 6:50. Not an easy thing to do.

When we were reconciling I told her it was easier for me to stay at her house so she did not have to wake early, etc. She felt smothered early on and like I was trying to slide into the home. I finally one day explained that I felt bad that I was not able to deal with the kids in the morning after they were at my house because of my schedule and not being able to change it. She asked me why I had never explained that to her before; I just assumed she understood this. (what a dummy)

So with treating her like a neighbor whom was doing a nice thing by sacrificing their time to help me I sent her this text.

Me - “Thanks for getting up early after a short night of sleep and getting the kids ready for school. I appreciate it.”

Her – You’re welcome

Her – Am I picking them up Thursday night or Friday morning?

Me – “I know you have to get ready for WHC and Chicago along with classes so whatever works best for you would be my pleasure. I can even put them down of take them out to you Thursday, if that is a better solution.”

She has a crazy schedule and no time to fit extra things in the next 7 days, so I was letting her know I shared in her dream by putting down in words. Something I had yet to do in our relationship.

I said what I would have said to anyone who did this for me out of the blue. My wife normally would not have heard these kinds of words from me because I would have expected she understood the situation and my appreciation when I would just say “thank you”.

She bends over backwards for many others and is very selfless. I also am more willing to help others than myself, now I am letting those people know. I think when it is family and our SO we do not let them know how much we care and how happy we are to help; this is the case with me. I just made the assumption everyone understood how I felt etc.

I am really working on being selfless; I love the way it feels. This is a good 180 for me and my life.

I now am going to see if there is cheese down this tunnel. She did call me and I stepped out of a meeting to answer. She said she just needed to talk about a couple of things and would call me later. It is hard not to speculate of mind read what they could be, so I am trying to avoid that mentally.

It is funny how you can hear the same message multiple times and then all of a sudden smack. I guess like MWD recommends, sometimes it is the how the message is delivered not what the message is. I was going to do this before the second separation. Now I have to do it from afar.

I was thinking about DBing when writing the text and Sandi's rules; didn't have them in front of me but I don't think I violated any of them.

[gogofo]

Never did get a phone call, felt like reaching out and asking what she needed but held strong and kept my distance. Did this twice yesterday.

I was going to Home Depot and saw her drive by on her way to the movies with the kids. We were supposed to go together, but oh well. Felt like sending a text that said "Movies! Have fun!", even grabbed my phone and started to type.

I hit the breaks and thought about why I wanted to send the text. I was trying to convince myself that it would be being a good neighbor to be saying "hey saw you headed to the movies, have fun!" but that is not me and not actually where my feelings were. What my message would have been is me shyly reaching out to be invited to enjoy the movie together. Took a couple deep breaths and went on my way.

Felt good about not sending the text, it was probably pursuing and acting out of emotion. Trying to keep on track with my DB principles.

So two unneeded text messages or phone calls avoided yesterday. Feel a little apprehensive about it now, but I am starting over again in our situation. The beginning is hard again because of the drastic abrupt drop in contact, the whole wanting and needing the contact part.

The first time we separated I needed to talk with her, now I want too. I keep reminding myself that when she wants to she will contact me. This is her timeline and I cannot rush her, if I do I may push her closer to D. I need to keep respecting her feelings about wanting to be separated, even if I do not agree with them.

I will have some sort of interaction, text or call, with her today as we need to find out what the plan is with the kids. I may have to reach out later today, but it will be because of the kids.

[gogofo]

Feeling angry and cheated tonight. I have been thinking about my W making a pro and con list about me and it makes me mad that she is trying to reduce me to pluses and minuses. I am much more than can be quantified by a list. I have been thinking about when she said she made the list and asked me what she needed me for. I just feel so insulted.

Need to through these feelings because she will be over to get the kids and I need to appear stronger than I feel right now and I need to dump my anger.

[gogofo]

The anger also comes from fear of the list. I find it is hard to impossible to remain neutral when doing pros and cons when we are overcome with emotion. I know I am on the losing side as she kicked me out again and I fear she is going to feel hurt again and not take responsibility for her part in the attempted reconciliation.

I am fearing that she will go and proceeded further without us having an open and realistic talk about our problems.

[bravo61]

Try not to focus on that. My W said she didn't want or need me to be there for her, only the kids. Less than 36 hrs later, she called and said she needed me. She was sick and needed help w/the kids. I just said I was on my way and made a point to not throw it in her face. She's trying to get a reaction out of you so she can say "see you haven't changed a need at all". You are stronger than that. You know what is right, just do it.

[Barrybran]

Hey gogofo, it's been a while. Sorry to hear that you're back to square one. Reading your posts, I notice a lot of pursuing behaviour. You've picked up on it and credit to you for not calling or sending those texts.

Focus on yourself for a while and remember what worked before moving back in with your wife.

[gogofo]

Thanks for the words of encouragement.

Wife came over and we had a business like exchange. Offered to get her something, she said no thanks.

Our youngest son sometimes still has issues with pooping in the toilet. When he was eating dinner I smelled farts and asked him, but her said nope. Well when W shows up he says that his undies were dirty. I took him to the bathroom and took care of it.

During this time I was getting my dinner ready, eating late and being dumb hoping that I could entice W to stay for some food. I resisted the temptation to invite her but noticed she was looking at me differently when I was in the kitchen and dealing with our youngest. Don't know why, but she was looking my way intently and I pretended that I did not notice.

I also caught myself kind of gravitating or milling around in her area and made it a point not to be in her immediate vicinity. I also caught myself standing and crossing my arms looking closed off so I made sure I stopped that too.

Changing my attitude and non-verbal communication towards her again is hard. I am not the only one but it is difficult to switch from only wanting them to acting like it is their loss.

When dealing with our youngest he said he wanted me to go with them to the other house. Damn that stings hard. I think they notice it this time because they are older and last January I had not been home much because of work.

These kids can really show me my guilt and get me in my raw nerve endings about this new separation.

I think I have to write a letter to my W cussing her out and getting all of my anger out so I can help myself move past the emotion I felt last night. These letters are just for me, I do not send or share them with her, but when I have done them in the past they really help me understand my feelings and let me get through some of these emotions.

When she leaves the house she turns her back and goes quickly. I know why she does this and how she feels. All of this is hard on everyone.

[gogofo]

Am I the only one who will read a relationship book and get excited and hopeful and sad and scared while reading through different parts?

I just finished the 7 Principle of Making Marriage Work and I can see the faults and issues between us. From my point of view they are things we can eliminate, figure out, or learn to live with like we had before.

I think that is why I was so angry last night. Right now I feel like "if I only had this book with me we could have fixed our issues." In reality I don't think it would have happened that way. I would have been too scared to bring up the book or too naive to think we needed it until it was too late...

[Barrybran]

The books are great for understanding psychology and how we can use it to tidy up our side of the street. I used to read books and have all sorts of 'aha' moments as well as feelings of hope.

On your other post, I think the letters are a great idea. I used to write them too, and still do if something really frustrates me, before speaking about things to my wife. Most of the time though I would reread what I had written later in the day or the following morning and leave it at that without speaking about the issue to my wife.

[gogofo]

My GAL has been to focus on house repairs and de-cluttering to clear my mind about the situation and from all of the scrap that accumulates after a couple of years in a house.

W got back from her work trip and asked for some time to get some homework done. Told her okay, take as much as needed. Kinda felt doormat like when telling her this, but I decided that I do still support her schooling and that is just my personality. She came and picked them up, had a friendly talk and when they left so did I to watch a football game with friends.

Had fun watching the game then she sent a text message asking if we could talk sometime. I said sure when ever and we decided to talk last night.

We talked from about 9:30 to 1:00 in the morning. It was a much calmer conversation than last time. She talked about feeling good and bad about the progress and changes I and we have made. She feels bad because she is upset it came to this situation for me to recognize my actions and now start to act like a partner, not just the one who takes all the time.

She said she is still angry at the past and me about the past. I said I understood that but there was nothing I could do about it to help her. I shared that I write nasty scathing letters to get emotions out. She doesn't want to hate me or be upset with me, but she doesn't know how to move forward.

She said she went and talked to a lawyer about how to dissolve the marriage. She told me the whole process of a basic uncontested divorce using only one lawyer. Went through money, kids, cars, debt, child support, the whole nine yards. I just listened and nodded and remained emotionless when she talked. When she was done I said "I don't know if you are expecting a response, but I don't know what to say" (a nice little phrase I learned from a communication book that shows you are listening and not ignoring but don't really have any kind of response. I definitely didn't want her to think I was agreeing with ending the M.

Then we talked some more about us and some issues etc. She said what she really wants is to be taken care of and feel taken care of. She gives so much and takes care of so many things, she wants to feel care for and about. This was the first time she has laid it all out to me with what she wants and needs.

Then we just kept talking about our R less and less and more just talking and sharing and catching up. I made us popcorn for a snack and did little husband things out of habit that I had been doing lately, i.e. taking care of her. I was about to steer the conversation back to the R at one point but it hit me that that would be the dumbest thing I could have done at that point. We had progressed through the R talk and were feeling comfortable with each other again.

It was a very pleasant and enjoyable and the evening was peppered throughout with jokes and teasing, even during the tough parts.

She knows what it would take to dissolve the marriage, so do I. She never did bring it back up or act like she was going to file. I feel she just needed to know what it would take and evaluate.

I ended up staying the night and asked where she wanted me to sleep, after I said in humor that I obviously knew where I wanted to. We shared a bed last night. When in bed I asked if I could, then she interrupted "ah geez you were doing so good too" assuming I was going to ask for a kiss. We laughed and I said I just wanted to scoot closer. I put my hand against her elbow and we feel asleep.

She had one last comment of "sometimes I think it would be easier if I just divorced you and then we got back together." I laughed and she said she was kind of serious and I told her that I knew she was and that is why I was laughing.

[gogofo]

The original plan for today was she would drop off the kids to my house around noon. We spent the morning together and had lunch together as a family. I gave her space and didn't mill around in her presence.

The biggest thing came when we rode together to lunch. I noticed she had put her wedding ring back on. She had not wore it since I was kicked out the second time. She didn't wear it on her trip out of town this past Friday, but she is wearing it now as she travels to Chicago.

When she left the house for the airport she hugged and kissed the boys and then we hugged and I gave her a big python hug.

So she will be gone for a couple of days and we left each other in what seems like a very positive emotional state for us.

Cannot wait to talk to my DB coach and I am so happy to have her expertise when the W and I are feeling more positive than last week.

[Barrybran]

Well done in not bringing the R talk back up! Not so well done on the in-bed interaction. Thankfully your wife took it well. Just keep reminding yourself of what it took you to get to the point where you moved back in; the detachment, the GAL, no no pursuing, etc.

I'm glad you didn't freak out when your wife brought up the prospect of divorce. It sounds like she valued you listening to her.

[labug]

Rollercoaster, right?

Drop your timeline, live your life, let her live hers.

I think she's let you know exactly what she needs. Time and respect.

Do you know what she means when she says she wants to feel taken care of? That's not rhetorical, write out what you think she means.

Are you reading any of the women's threads here? It might be helpful.

[gogofo]

I specifically read anything 25yearsmlc posts. Other women's threads I have not specifically sought out, but I should. Sometimes it is hard to figure out which threads are posted by women as some protect their identity very well. I will go and educate myself.

The timeline thing is where I need to breath and practice patience. I like to move too quickly sometimes and slower than she likes at other times.

She did list a couple things about when she wants to feel taken care of. I will have to put pen to paper and get deep with this.

I did reschedule my appointment from Wednesday to Tuesday because the W comes back from her work trip on Wednesday afternoon and I want to talk with my coach before she comes back. Get some more advice on my situation.

Thanks for the help, everyone.

[gogofo]

I forgot, one thing she told me was that she went to see a councilor in April and that she was told that people never change.

WTF is that about? Blew my mind when she told me, wow I was mad.

I would hope to think that a professional would understand that people do have the capacity to change, if the WANT to change.

I think every piece of self help I have read reinforces our ability to change.

I'm still dumbfounded by what she was told.

[labug]

Why are you so mad about her out of context interpretation of what a C said?

I think your W has made it very clear she doesn't think you can change so everything is going to be seen through that bias. Decide who you want to be, make your changes and make them to the core of your being.

You can do this, don't let little things trip you up.

[gogofo]

I wasn't mad at my W, I was mad that someone would be providing this information to someone.

It has motivated me even more about changing into who I want to be and changing at the core like you said. I know I can change, I have changed quite a bit about myself. My W even noticed this.

I still have work to do, but I will not let this opinion sway me from my goals/changes.

One thing in my life I have issues with is letting small details overwhelm me and get me to a point of stagnation when doing projects or working on things. I let the details frustrate me and find reasons not to do things, instead of keeping my eyes on my goal and attacking the obstacles as they come.

Still need work for it to be natural, but I am noticing when it happens and self motivating to keep working towards my goals, end or projects, etc. I always start things with a huge head of steam and then my actions/motivation slowly peter out to where things just sit there half or three quarters finished. These projects create stress in my life and I am trying to work through these issues.

I read a couple of great quotes from Henry Ford that I love and can apply to many areas of my life.

"Obstacles are those frightful things you see when you take your eyes off your goal."

"If you always do what you've always done, you always get what you've always got"

"Don't find fault, find a remedy."

[gogofo]

W just sent me a picture of a list showing pros, cons, and wants for her in our relationship. She said she wants me to send her my list with the same things and want to talk about it on Wednesday.

She also said her list wasn't meant to be hurtful, she was just trying to sort things out and communicate; and that she knows the cons list is longer but she was just freely writing.

I think this could be a positive step forward for us as this is something we have never done in years, especially the wants list. Our lives are so much more complicated now than they were before kids and two professional careers that we really need to do this.

Now to get some paper and start digging deep into my list.

[labug]

I didn't think you were mad at your W, it just sseemed like a lot of emotion for a second hand, out or context comment. But it spurred you, didn't it? As Mach says, use your anger as a shield not a sword. Gird your loins with and get to work.

Ummmmmm what was on your W's list?

Spill it!

[gogofo]

Here is the wife's list. She said she was just free writing, not purposely trying to make Cons list longer. Some issues had started to be remedied but as she said we had some triggers that had her revert back a couple months to a lot of her older feelings from when we first separated.

I do not see anything that would be a deal breaker to me. Her want list and my want list are very similar and would help us work through a lot of the cons on our lists.

PROS
kids/family
stable
talk/conversation
trying
knows me (kinda)
safe
know him (kinda)
no divorce stigma
not alone
still care
had good times too

CONS
money issues
intimacy issues
past 10 years
projects
no consistency
trust issues
home town forever
love my own house
don't know if I can live with him
can I forgive all?
miss family & friends
so angry & sad
last name back
everything a battle
10 months apart
I know I can move on
hate splitting holidays
could move someday

WANT
equal input, output, shared
romance
fun
socialness
freedom
space
dream
not be alone
not be controlled
my wants, likes, preferences valued
to be in love, feel love
not compromise on all - I want to win a few

[gogofo]

Feeling a little anxious and nervous right now about talking with the W about our lists.

My DB coach gave me some good tips and seems optimistic as well.

Just trying to settle my nerves and not get too excited or worried. Just need to relax and go with the flow right now.

[gogofo]

Updating my situation. We talked about the lists and she just seems like she wants us to get back together but does not know how to do it.

We discussed some particular issues and talked about how some have not been addressed, others needed to be looked at again because we are in a very different place in our lives with work and money etc.

I talked about how I support her and her future and the possibility of moving away from our current town so she can pursue her dreams.

We had a nice evening the day before and on Halloween. Spent time with the kids and together and it was enjoyable. I spent the night on Halloween.

She left early the next morning to pick up family from the airport and left me a honey do list. I was happy about it because I told her that was something I really enjoyed.

We were going to go on a private date that night but she asked if we could go with her parents and relatives as a big group and we had a nice dinner together. We went back to her place and cuddled in bed and fell asleep together.

Sunday I worked on my house and she went to work. She was running behind and so I prepared dinner at her house and let her play with the kids while I cleaned up the kitchen. She does not really get any fun time with the kids, so it was my goal to give her the time to do her work and the time to play with the kids.

Monday she had a late meeting so I cooked dinner at her house and did not plan to stay the night, but she fell sick after dinner and our youngest was having a bad evening. I stayed the night and got up off and on all night with the kids so she could try and get some rest and feel better.

Last night I went to my house and worked on it while she taught late.

During our talk last week I mentioned that there was a 7 week fondness exercise that we could try that was supposed to bring us closer together. She agreed she would try it so we started on Monday.

Monday we shared our thoughts about each other as per the question we were supposed to think about. It went well, no big issue.

Last night I sent a text about remembering a special/romantic time we shared. She sent a message back saying that she can't do this. When she was remembering times like that they were all created by her and she was angry now thinking how I had not contributed. Not really what the exercises were supposed to do, but I can see where she is coming from and why that would make her mad.

She came over this morning and to get the boys so I could go to work. She seemed alright, didn't talk about anything much as I had to leave right when she got there.

We are supposed to have an evening together with her relatives tonight and then on Friday we are supposed take them out of town and then back to the airport on Saturday.

I tried to remain calm last night and not be so scared of the anger she was feeling. Trying to disconnect from her feelings and keep myself happy. I was not perfect at it, but better than I have been in the past.

I think she wants to move fairly fast or have a plan about us coming together and it seems like the fondness exercises were a tunnel without any cheese. Maybe she is feeling pressured by it, I don't know.

When discussing this coming week she asked "so are you moving in again" and I said that it was up to her. I said when we get the house to a point that is ready to sell we can reevaluate where we are and if we are ready for it.

[1foot2]

i forget, is she seeing an IC? reading through your sitch it seems like every time you make progress, she throws something at you from your past behavior. unless you are leaving a lot out (and your posts seem very thorough, and you seem very sincere), it seems like you have made a lot of very overt efforts to put your past behind you. she seems to be clinging very hard. i dont know how you can address that exactly but it seems like work that she needs to do.

[gogofo]

She is not seeing an IC. You are correct as to making progress and then the past coming up and muddying the situation.

She just sent me a text about not wanting to do anything Thanksgiving. She wants to split the week with the kids, her the beginning and me the end of the week.

So it seems that the fondness exercise backfired royally towards bringing us together. Feels like now it is driving us apart again.

I don't know if she is feeling pressured again and is getting scared or what it is.

I think I will reach out and ask to talk tonight about how she is feeling.

Roller coaster time again...

[gogofo]

Her changing her mind on Thanksgiving has me thinking that maybe she is feeling overwhelmed by the pace we are moving, I don't know.

The Wednesday before we talked about doing what we wanted to do for holidays and not worrying about what our families thought. She said it would be much easier if we did not live in the same town as our families so we could do what we wanted without feeling the guilt from both sides when either splitting the holiday or doing it with only one of them.

On Halloween night she told me that is was my job to plan what we were going to do for Thanksgiving. So I made a plan and have reservations and hotel rooms, etc.

Monday night I asked if she would go with me from that Wednesday morning through mid day Saturday. I don't know if she felt like this was pursuing and moving to fast. From my perspective she gave me the green light to make a plan and I did.

Reviewing what happens between us is that we have great interactions and help each other out very well. When we are spending time together we both seem to enjoy it. It feels we build some momentum and then there is a set back in feelings because of past issues in the marriage.

I even backed off big time with my physical touch, etc. I was working on building affection before trying for a kiss. We had been hugging, tightly, and even on Sunday night when I had to run to the store late at night we hugged strongly and she initiated it.

I know this time I have been very cognizant about my behavior, but I do not know if it is possible for me to help with her feelings from the past and how they effect her. I get motivated to pull 180s and change that person I see as a taker and un-involved in the relationship. She seems to feel the pain again.

Any vets have thoughts about the past creeping up and throwing us through the roller coaster?

[Elsa]

Hi gogofo,

I just read your thread from the beginning and I think our situations sound similar, with the genders reversed. My H is having a hard time letting go of the past and it continues to get in the way of our recovery. I will update my thread later today with some more about this.

Coincidentally, my H and I also started the same fondness exercise this week. We aren't sharing our thoughts with each other yet; however, H asked me if we could, and I think I may suggest doing so at the end of every week. Maybe using the week for reflection and then coming together to review would work for you and your W?

So far, my H hasn't said anything about it (other than that he's doing the exercises every day) so I don't know if he's struggling with any of the assignments. I had some difficulty with Day 1 myself, because while I think my H has many wonderful qualities, it was difficult to choose one that I feel like is being consistently demonstrated now. But the daily "thought" was very helpful, and I went to that mentally whenever I might have otherwise been upset with H.

It sounds like you are making some progress. Try not to be too discouraged by the inconsistency. From everything I read/hear, that's completely normal.

[gogofo]

Thanks Elsa, I will try and catch up on your situation.

I went to bed early last night after going to dinner with a couple friends. When I woke up the W had sent a text saying that I should not worry about going out of town with her on Friday, her SIL is going with her.

This is now the second thing she has canceled or does not want me to attend with her. I feel she is again separating from me and opting out of time we had planned to spend together.

I was really looking forward to going with her and her cousins and we had planned to have a lot of fun. We even talked about how much fun it would be.

Not sure what she is thinking now or how she is feeling, but it doesn't seem positive.

I want to send an email to her, just not sure how to say that I am concerned about how she is feeling and her angry feeling towards our past and how they effect our current relationship. In my opinion she needs to let it out on me, multiple times, so I can understand how EXACTLY she feels. I feel she needs to see me taking ownership of how I hurt her and I think she needs to get these things out.

[labug]

That's a lot of thinking about what she should do.

You don't know what she's feeling really. I would guess she's confused. Maybe she likes the idea of keeping the family together and being with you but has had a taste of freedom from certain constraints and likes that, too.

Back off, continue seeing her WITHOUT EXPECTATION and create new, better memories which will eventually, hopefully, take the place of the old memories.

It takes the LBS a while to see that things really can be different.

[sandi2]

Gogofo, the two of you are not in piecing right now, correct? She has to make the right decision first. She says she wants to work on the M but doesn't know how? Sounds like a weak excuse. With all the information available on the market, I believe she could at least read about "how" to work on it.

[gogofo]

Yes, I guess that was a lot of thinking about what she should do.

What is killing me is not knowing what she is feeling. I wish we were in a spot where we could share more than "I am angry". There seems to be so many things about "I am angry" that has me making assumptions.

My fear is that she will go to a lawyer and get the papers drawn up. I know she has talked to one recently and she said she is tired of the limbo that is our situation. During our last talk we were working on us again, had some good days, and now her changing her plans to be with me. She even invited me to go with her and her cousins and sent me the hotel info on Tuesday morning.

I know she is torn and in pain and I want to help her. Don't know if I can or if I should.

From my position it is the WAS that is taking a while to see that things really can be different.

[gogofo]

Gogofo, the two of you are not in piecing right now, correct? She has to make the right decision first. She says she wants to work on the M but doesn't know how? Sounds like a weak excuse. With all the information available on the market, I believe she could at least read about "how" to work on it.

This is how I feel too, but I don't know how to bring this up to her. I don't want to scare her away or for her to feel forced into things.

The fondness exercises was my suggestion and day one was okay, day two brought up painful memories and she has now started to pull away again.

I feel MC could help us, but last time I brought it up she didn't seem too keen on the idea. She felt that it was my controlling again and not respecting how she felt.

The past history of our relationship causes her great pain. Our new relationship has been significantly different, which she has noticed and acknowledged, but the good changes bring up anger in her about the past.

She said she doesn't want to feel angry towards me.

[labug]

Yes, I guess that was a lot of thinking about what she should do.

What is killing me is not knowing what she is feeling. I wish we were in a spot where we could share more than "I am angry". There seems to be so many things about "I am angry" that has me making assumptions.[quote/]
Why is it some important to know exactly what she's feeling? She probably doesn't know. If you knew how she was feeling, how would that change things?

It's more important for you to know what you're feeling.

My fear is that she will go to a lawyer and get the papers drawn up. I know she has talked to one recently and she said she is tired of the limbo that is our situation. During our last talk we were working on us again, had some good days, and now her changing her plans to be with me. She even invited me to go with her and her cousins and sent me the hotel info on Tuesday morning.

She might go to a L and file. If that's in her mind you can't stop her, so let go of your fear. Fear keeps you in the victim position and is a terrible place to operate from.

[quote]I know she is torn and in pain and I want to help her. Don't know if I can or if I should.

It's not our job to help anyone, unless they ask for it.

There's still a lot of fixing and control surfacing in you.

Why do you think that is?

From my position it is the WAS that is taking a while to see that things really can be different.

Your absolutely right, I got my acronyms confused.

[sandi2]

The fondness exercises was my suggestion and day one was okay, day two brought up painful memories and she has now started to pull away again.

I am not familiar with the fondness exercises. But let make something clear. What she may see as "working on you two" may not include a reconciliation of the M at all. You, on the other hand, have that as your goal in every action you take. She may have more in mind of a better friend relationship with you. Saying she doesn't know how to work on the M, sounds more like an answer given when a WAW doesn't want to deal with it (or LBH). Kind of a brush-off answer, so you will leave her alone.

The only thing that will scare her off is for you to push, control, and pressure her. Why did she leave the second time (after piecing)?

[gogofo]

W just called and informed me of some kid stuff.

Then bamm! She tells me she signed the papers yesterday, I had a feeling she might and she did.

I told her that "I feel that a long term separation or divorce were not the solution to our problems, but I respect her right to do it."

What she did tell me was that she cannot take the roller coaster any more, she cannot do it. She said that when we try to make things work she feels angry and she does not want to be angry at me.

I told her that I would like to learn more about how she felt that way and she said we could talk about it on Saturday.

[gogofo]

The only thing that will scare her off is for you to push, control, and pressure her. Why did she leave the second time (after piecing)?

I don't think we were actually piecing. I thought we were but I think the process we made was mostly superficial.

We split the second time because of feelings from the past coming up again. It was triggered by an affection/sex issue and then her feelings and memories of our past relationship came up again.

She feels anger about how she had to leave in order for me to make any changes. Anger about how now I am doing things that she likes but where were they in the past. She likes who I have become but cannot get through her anger about who I was in the past.

[Elsa]

I'm so sorry to hear that, gogofo.

I hope your talk on Saturday is productive.

[gogofo]

Today I am feeling very confused and disappointed by my W deciding to sign D papers.

She said she cares about me, but doesn't want to feel angry. I feel she never did the work to get past these angry feelings. I know she noticed change and issues were being addressed and we had good times together, even within the week. But she seems to be feeling the past and ignoring what we have right now.

I just don't know. I don't want to see her in pain, but I do not agree that D is the answer.

[sandi2]

Resentment is the core in a WAW. She has to want to let go of the past. When she admits to herself there is absolutely nothing you can do about who you once were.......and stops blaming you, and respects you for making change now, then she will be better prepared to think about a possible relationship. Right now, she doesn't want to let go. She wants to be angry at you. Maybe she is showing you there's nothing you can do to control how she feels, IDK. I just know she's not ready.

The tighter you pull on that rope......the more resistance you'll get.

[gogofo]

So are you saying just listen to her and let her move forward with the D? I know we are going to talk soon and I don't want to even talk about the D, or argue against it. My main concern is how she feels and her anger.

I feel I pushed too hard this last go around and made her feel pressured to try.

[sandi2]

I feel I pushed too hard this last go around and made her feel pressured to try.

If pushing works against you, then what?

[gogofo]

Yeah, drop the rope and let things progress on their own.

During our last talk I felt that she was asking how we could work on us. I should have moved a lot slower than I did.

Hindsight I guess. Nothing I can do about it now.

I am happy I have a DB Coaching session tonight.

Right now I am just playing a lot of the "what if" game in my head.

[sandi2]

Maybe once upon a time you pressured her into giving in to what you wanted. So now you have a hard time believing it won't work again. When you say you pushed too hard the last time, it sounds to me you knew at the time you were pushing but just didn't stop soon enough.

You really have to stop this kind of behavior. Nobody likes for another person to try to force them to do something. You probably never thought of it as force......more like trying to convince her.

She already knows how you feel. Do you really think it is necessary to go through it again? What if you just kept quite and listened to her? Not express your opinion or disagree with her, just listen without interrupting.

[gogofo]

You really have to stop this kind of behavior. Nobody likes for another person to try to force them to do something. You probably never thought of it as force......more like trying to convince her.

She already knows how you feel. Do you really think it is necessary to go through it again? What if you just kept quite and listened to her? Not express your opinion or disagree with her, just listen without interrupting.

No I never did see it as force, but I can see how it would feel that way to her.

I had been doing a good job at just listening and not interrupting. We had a deep talk about pros, cons, and wants in our relationship. She said she just did not know what to do about our us.

I feel she cares about me and possibly wants to love me again, she just does not know how.

During our talk I made a suggestion that I had some ideas if she was open to them. She said yes and then I described the fondness exercises and she agreed.

I put them off for the next Monday, this was Wednesday night, and we had a great next couple of days.

Then I can see how she could have felt forced by me. It forced her to review our past and brought us to where we are now, with papers signed.

When thinking about how she feels she may feel that it is the only way to get the anger and pain to stop.

[sandi2]

I don't know that reviewing the past with a WAW is the right direction to take if you are hoping she will consider coming back to the M. B/c of her resentment, it invariably will take a bad turn. It's like messing with a hornets nest.

[gogofo]

Yes, I am beginning to understand just how reviewing our past hurts and angers her.

[gogofo]

W came to pick up kids this morning. I was pleasant, asked a couple of questions about her and her cousins' visit, talked about some truck repairs I have going, and talked about our oldest's first quarter report in school.

I wished her a good day out of town (on the trip I was supposed to attend) and left.

She gave me an interesting look when I told her I hoped she had fun, maybe she didn't expect it (I don't know). I meant it and I do hope she gets a handle on her feelings and emotions and I hope they level out.

My talk last night with my DB Coach went well and was inspiring, but they always are. She gave me some hope when assessing my W's actions, even when signing papers. She said she did not sound like someone who is ready for D, but she may have made a decision in a highly emotional state which is not a good idea.

She also said that she needs space and that she probably did feel pressured by me when working on the R. When she didn't feel pressured by me she was feeling calm and enjoying our R, but when pressured she feels uncomfortable with her angry feelings and does not like how she feels.

Hopefully we can talk on Saturday about how she feels. I just want to listen and my coach guided me on some things to say and not to say and good questions to ask to understand how she feels.

One big tip she gave me is to ask what she needs, NOT what she needs from ME, but what she needs right now. And if she said she does not know, instead of offering suggestions (like I have in the past and backfired) just let her know that when she comes up with something to let me know.

GAL tonight is to watch my college football team try to win, emphasis on try. Tomorrow is to try and finish up all that I can on my bathroom vanity plumbing.

[labug]

You know what her feelings are, don't you?

The more you push for what you want, the more resistance you're going to get.

Accept her decision to D, and work on you.

I know this is difficult but I can feel your need to control this through the interwebs here.

Leave her be for awhile.

[labug]

Didn't she invite you on the trip or did I misread a previous post?

[gogofo]

Yes she did invite me on a trip, we had three planned in the next three weeks.

Today we were supposed to go and stay overnight out of town to take her cousins to the airport. I was sent a text message Wednesday night that said "don't worry, you don't have to go I am taking my SIL". We were both excited to go and even talked about it on Monday night. We had planned on having a lot of fun.

Next week we were supposed to go to a concert, but I have zero hope that it will happen.

She told me to plan our Thanksgiving, so I did. Then she told me on Wednesday that she did not want to do Thanksgiving together. She would have kids the beginning of the week and I could have them the end of the week. This was after I asked if she would be okay with going out of town Wednesday through Friday of that week, she agreed to go.

So yes we did have quite a few trips planned, but now she signed the papers and is separating her from our existing plans.

I know I need to leave her be for awhile. The sad part is that the D papers could possibly go through in 4 weeks. I think she made a decision empassioned with emotional pain and I know me pushing or her feeling pressure from me will only validate this decision for her.

I need to be brave and take on the Law of Surrender. It was suggested I read it by my coach. I need to be brave and accept what I cannot control. It will be difficult, but I think it will be the best for me and my W.

I know that I cannot be the one to show her the repercussions of her decisions, she has to realize this on her own at her own pace.

My last mistake was thinking she was ready to increase the pace of working on the R. If I was more in tune and not working emotionally I would have just enjoyed the situation and moments were we sharing. I do believe we would be on the trip together today if we had done this.

She was resisting my pulls on the rope, I did not realize I was pulling until she pulled hard the other direction.

[gogofo]

I find it interesting that when we feel dark or down about our M we will look for any little thing to give us hope. My hope today came from my W engaging in Scrabble with me again on our phones.

Shouldn't be getting my hopes up, but I will not lie that it feels nice. She hadn't played a word in the last 4 days. I know it means nothing and I should not get my hopes up or get expectations, but I am smiling.

As my DB Coach said last night, she hasn't completely disconnected from me and the fact that she may want to talk on Saturday is a positive sign. She said a lot of times when someone files they are completely done and do not want any interaction with their spouse.

[gogofo]

Just got home from watching football with my friends. Had a lot of fun even though my team lost. Now I am home in an empty house and fuming about my situation. From what it looks like my D could be done in 20 days, unless I drag it out which depending on the terms she has asked for, it most likely would not benefit me. I don't think she is going to ask for much, not even half of what I have.

I am just so disappointed in the both of us. Me for being so self centered and blind to her love during the marriage and her for not seeing what it is we have now and not working through the past. F@$k I am upset, I feel like we both failed each other and I feel like the answer to our problems is in front of us but she is choosing D and I am choosing working on the M.

Don't know what to do or feel right now. I know there is still a small glimmer of hope, but it seems very dim right now.

I feel so sad, am I allowed to feel that way? I guess I am entitled to. A couple beers and a bad M does not do so well on my emotions right now. I just feel like unloading on her. That would definitely be a 180, something she really has never witnessed me doing, going off empassioned with emotion without regard for others feelings or DB techniques. It would feel good for a couple minutes that's for sure.

Now to lay in bed and see if I can cry or at least get passed and rid myself of these emotions and thoughts. Don't need to feel this way if she comes over to talk tomorrow.

[25yearsmlc]

Just got home from watching football with my friends. Had a lot of fun even though my team lost. Now I am home in an empty house and fuming about my situation. From what it looks like my D could be done in 20 days, unless I drag it out which depending on the terms she has asked for, it most likely would not benefit me. I don't think she is going to ask for much, not even half of what I have.

I am just so disappointed in the both of us. Me for being so self centered and blind to her love during the marriage and her for not seeing what it is we have now and not working through the past. F@$k I am upset, I feel like we both failed each other and I feel like the answer to our problems is in front of us but she is choosing D and I am choosing working on the M.

Don't know what to do or feel right now. I know there is still a small glimmer of hope, but it seems very dim right now.

I feel so sad, am I allowed to feel that way? I guess I am entitled to. A couple beers and a bad M does not do so well on my emotions right now. I just feel like unloading on her. That would definitely be a 180, something she really has never witnessed me doing, going off empassioned with emotion without regard for others feelings or DB techniques. It would feel good for a couple minutes that's for sure.

What if you let her see your sadness and loss, your vulnerability (but in a dignified SAD way, not fuming in anger)?

What if she could see just your loss and sorrow, the compassion you feel for the loss YOU Feel and the loss you know she'll face b/c when all is said & done, you know down deep how very much you love her. And if the m ends, she really will lose something precious.

What if you let her in, without "unloading" On her?

Now to lay in bed and see if I can cry or at least get passed and rid myself of these emotions and thoughts. Don't need to feel this way if she comes over to talk tomorrow.

[gogofo]

I know I will not be fuming at her, but how do you show sadness and loss in a dignified way? I know I don't want her to get the idea that I cannot go on without her or give her the impression that I am needy.

How about saying something like

"I am just so saddened and disappointed at our situation. We have so many great connections between us, I will be sad to see them go. This reconciliation process has been painful and difficult and has shown me areas in my life where I need to improve, regardless of the outcome."

[labug]

Do it without the guilt thrown in.

I'm sad it's come to this but I'm grateful for the realizations this has brought with it and the opportunity to improve myself and my life. I was pretty lost.

[claire7]

^^^ Great advice.

[gogofo]

Thanks bug, I didn't see the guilt in my statement until you pointed it out.

[labug]

I'm a past-master of sub-text guilt!

[sandi2]

Hopefully we can talk on Saturday about how she feels. I just want to listen and my coach guided me on some things to say and not to say and good questions to ask to understand how she feels.

Why do you have to talk about her feelings? How is that different from saying, "Talk about the past and all the ways I let you down"? Stay away from the hornets nest.

[gogofo]

Sandi2

I want to know how she goes from enjoying our current relationship to her feeling angry. Then this anger takes her to file for divorce. We had plans and were excited to go on a trip one week ago, and then her anger leads her to the lawyer's office.

I never thought of it as "talk about the past and all the ways I let you down." Now that I see it that way I can see what you are suggesting.

She said she cares about me and feels good about us but working on us makes her angry and she is tired of feeling angry so she filed.

Not sure what moves or actions I have left to try and save this relationship. I thought being emotionally supportive and understanding of her anger would possibly help us feel together more and stall or slow or stop the D process.

High hopes and I am sure an impossibility, but that is why I want to talk about her feelings. To listen and validate and understand and hope she feels something for me.

[sandi2]

If she doesn't volunteer or initiate talking about her feelings, then that leaves you in the position to ask her about it, right? That is pressure to her. Can you understand that? It is one thing for her to want to offer information, and another for you to pry it from her.

Obviously something triggered her anger. If it was that program, or whatever it was, where you were digging up the past.....then she may still be dealing with those emotions. Why on earth would want to press it more?

You may see it as some action to stop the D, but actually, you are pushing it through. For her, discussing her feelings is the same thing as discussing the relationship. She doesn't know how to disquisition between the two. One is connect to the other.

Why can't you just share a nice time together and let her steer the conversations?

[gogofo]

If I would have been focused on just having a nice time together then I wouldn't be where I am right now. My pushing to deal with the past made her feel forced or pushed. My mistake that I feel I need to correct. But with your insight into it I can see how there is nothing I can do.

Finding time to enjoy being together may be difficult now that she filed. But I know every interaction is an opportunity. She said she enjoys our time together but working on us hurts.

Thanks for the insight Sandi, I will be backing off and just trying to have enjoyable interactions with her.

I should have stayed calm and let her dictate the pace when she said she didn't know how to move forward. We were no where near a position for piecing. I Definitely misjudged that.

I feel I should apologize for pressuring her with the exercises, but I doubt that is a good idea. It would probably just be for me, not for her.

[sandi2]

I really believe you should not even bring up an apology right now, b/c it would be linked with what was done/said......and would defeat your intentions.

Finding time to enjoy being together may be difficult now that she filed. But I know every interaction is an opportunity. She said she enjoys our time together but working on us hurts.

Look at it this way, if you get D then you are going to use these last times together as making good memories. You see, that has much more effectiveness with a woman than you trying to get her to change her mind, or have another talk with her. If she can't remember any good times, then leave her with sweet memories now,

Yes, it hurts when the past comes up. It is painful dealing with all of this in piecing. That is why you will need to get a professional to help you both, if she ever decides to try again. But do not mention it now!

You are blessed that she even wants to be around you. Most women in her shoes would be ticked at you pushing all the time, and most who file wouldn't still enjoy spending time with the LBH.

Men often push so hard to stop the D b/c they see it as the end, forever. Maybe it would help you if you stopped looking at it that way. (Again, don't tell her what I am telling you.). You may be able to move on, or you may be able to find your way back to each other. But for gosh sakes stop pushing her.

[gogofo]

The pushing will stop. I have no other options. She is in the driver's seat and I forgot that. It is her pace.

What I will need help with is if I continue to support her and her schedule as I have been while working on the M. I feel as if I should, show her what she has with me, but my instincts have not always been correct. I can see both sides, helping her and showing her what she has while she has it or showing her what she is losing by not being as flexible and supporting as I have been.

Not being as supportive feels like I would be punishing her, and I know it isn't my job to show her the error of her ways.

Being supportive kind of feels like a doormat, helping out and being flexible for someone who filed for D.

Choices? I think I will continue to support her with the kids and time she needs for school etc unless this is obviously the wrong thing to do.

FYI: we have not talked and I will not initiate contact. She has been playing me in scrabble, that's it.

[MCS]

I understand what you are going through. I thought we were piecing in my sitch, but I think it was me pressuring her when I confront her about OM. It went on a couple days and then her polar opposite views of either wanting to piece or not got me to my wits end in no time flat. Definitely not healthy for me.

[gogofo]

You are blessed that she even wants to be around you. Most women in her shoes would be ticked at you pushing all the time, and most who file wouldn't still enjoy spending time with the LBH.

Men often push so hard to stop the D b/c they see it as the end, forever. Maybe it would help you if you stopped looking at it that way. (Again, don't tell her what I am telling you.). You may be able to move on, or you may be able to find your way back to each other. But for gosh sakes stop pushing her.

The thing about the pushing is I felt pressure from her in working on the M. She was getting frustrated that we were not farther along with our R. She was sick of the limbo and wanted to see progress. I wasn't aware or conscience enough to notice that I was pushing the pace. It is obvious now, especially when she said she enjoys our time together but working on us is painful and makes her angry. I was working from a fearful or scared emotion instead of calming down and using DB techniques.

[Barrybran]

I get where you're coming from, gogofo. My wife recently told me that she doesn't see a future for us because things haven't changed in a positive way for a year. At the end of the day, we have a wonderful resource here that our partners don't have. We have information, literature, positive, pro-marriage people who support our efforts and constructively criticise our errors... our partners, for the most part, are likely relying on ill-informed people with varying attitudes towards marriage and relationships.

Hang in there. It's not much fun but you've made progress before and I'm sure you will make progress again. Just gotta be patient and keep being the new-and-improved you.

[gogofo]

So the W and I had a text message session late tonight. I will post it below for comments and analysis and 2x4s as needed.

I was trying to validate and not push or pursue, but it seemed like she wanted me to offer solutions, kind of. Let me have it.

W: I can't understand why I wasn't worth the effort before?
M: You were always worth the effort, I know it didn't feel that was before.

W: I'm just so sad and angry. The kids, anniversary, holidays everything hurts
M: I know that this month holds a lot of pain and difficult memories for you. I am sad that you are feeling this way.

W: I don't know how to feel better
M: I can see how all of this could have you (feeling) that way

W: Never mind. I need to go to sleep. I don't want you just to agree with everything I say. I'm an idiot
M: I am not just agreeing. I just don't know what to do either. I am concerned about how you feel, but my last idea pushed us too fast. I feel the exercises we tried pushed us and brought up painful memories. It did the opposite of what I thought it would do for us and our relationship. We were doing good when we were setting out own pace.

W: I feel like everything is always on your terms. Maybe that's because I don't make any
M: I am not sure what you mean?

W: I don't know. That exercise was awful. I looked through it and couldn't see getting through it. It shouldn't be this hard
M: When doing day two I felt awful about myself

W: I don't want us to feel awful. I want to be happy someday. For long periods of time, not for moments.
M: I want the same thing, I feel we both want a lot of the same things. I feel we do well when just being in the moment and doing us.

W: We have no time for moments. I want you to convince me that things can be different instead of saying it and you want me to hug you and kiss you and tell you it's going to be alright and at the end of the day neither of us gets what we want
M: I am focused on changing myself and bringing that person to our relationship. I know that I also need to build affection between us before the hugs and kisses. Among other things I have learned about myself and changing. I know convincing comes from showing change for sustained time and it also builds trust. But I also know these are just words right now.

[gogofo]

So there it is. I feel like she wants suggestions on how to come together and then she says that she feels everything is on my terms. It feels contradicting to me.

I am open to any suggestions as to what to do. When I mentioned MC before she did not seem to keen on it. I know she feels that she does not have the time to put in for it either.

I still have concert tickets for this coming Wednesday and I think we would have fun going, but I do not know if this would be too pushy.

I am confused and torn about finding the balance of suggesting ways to work on us and putting pressure on her. She seems to want help some how or from somewhere, but I don't know how or what to do right now.

I know us just being together with each other has done us well in the past and I would like to keep that up and see us slowly working and coming together. I just need to watch my pace. The difficult part right now is she seems to not have a pace or not know what her pace is.

Suggestions?

[labug]

Tell her you have the tickets and that you'd love to go together.

I think she's scared to death of being hurt again. She's going to have to do some work on her end but that's hers to do...or not. She's gonna have to weather same difficult feelings. Relationships are full of difficult feelings.

Validating can be tricky cause it can do just what it did to her, p!ss her off. Dial that back.

Next time ask her what it would e to convince her things will be different. Specifics. What's her LL, if you know? It's pretty clear she needs you to decrease the physical touch for now.

Here's the thing,you can only work on you and show her that a new R with you would be different. You can't fix her.

[gogofo]

Thanks Bug.

I have dialed back the physical touch. We haven't kissed on the lips in a month. Held hands maybe twice. Hugged maybe once a visit. Cuddle two or three times in bed. I completely understand the need to back off there.

Her LLs are quality time, acts of service, and receiving gifts; mine are the opposite, physical touch and words of encouragement. Ha!

I have slowly been saying that only she can work on herself, just not flat out in those words. I told her months ago that she needs to forgive me and that is something I cannot help her with. I did get a good recommendation for a forgiveness book from my coach, I may suggest that to her.

My feeling is she needs to feel good about where we are with our M for more than a week or two. A full month would maybe help her see that the change is something she can believe in.

I will have to find the right words and time to ask what convincing would look like to her.

Would inviting her to go to the concert be pursuing or pressuring? I know every situation is different. I know we would have an excellent time, I got the tickets 6 months ago and the concert is on our calendars. Maybe 're-extending the invitation needs to be done.

[sandi2]

W: I can't understand why I wasn't worth the effort before?
M: You were always worth the effort, I know it didn't feel that was before.

I think this would have been a good place for you to take ownership (unless you have already done this repeatedly). "You were always worth the effort. I was the one who failed there. I can't go back and redo it. I wish I could."

W: I don't know how to feel better
M: I can see how all of this could have you (feeling) that way

Do you think she is talking about herself in general, or feel better about the relationship? If it is her feelings in general......that seems terribly weak to me. Why wouldn't she reach out somewhere, to someone (professional) to deal with her anger?

If she keeps going back to that answer of she just doesn't know how to feel better, maybe you could agree with her and say, "I suppose you don't" and see how she reacts to it. There's a possibility she wants you to argue and tell her how she can feel better. But it sounds more like a weak response instead of a solid reason. It takes no work/effort, she doesn't have to "think" by saying she doesn't know how.

The point is, she is responsible for her own happiness. When I finally accepted that fact, it took a lot off my H and was placed squarely on my shoulders. Maybe you need to stop trying to make her happy. Stop trying to fix her. Stop trying to be her "everything". She has to want to be happy enough to do something about it. Happiness seldoms runs after us and pounces on us. At the present time, her obsession over the anger is greater than her desire to feel better. That is her decision. As long as you are available to be her target (or life coach), when will she take charge of her own emotions?

W: Never mind. I need to go to sleep. I don't want you just to agree with everything I say. I'm an idiot

Are you sure she didn't say she was no idiot? B/c a W can tell when her H is just agreeing with her, but doesn't really believe it. Maybe she was saying she was an idiot for listening, but that's mind reading.

W: I feel like everything is always on your terms. Maybe that's because I don't make any

She is at least recognizing she doesn't offer any. She doesn't like it that it all seems on your terms, but she's angry that she doesn't use her voice.

W: We have no time for moments. I want you to convince me that things can be different instead of saying it and

Well.......there it is. She thinks you are all talk and no action.

Like many LBH'S, you do want to talk a lot. Many times your answers are way too long b/c you are still trying to convince her to give you another chance. Many times the LBH will almost sound self-righteous in his attempts to get his message across that he is really working on himself to change. You try to convince her through talk that it will be different. She is sick of talk. She doesn't want to talk, either. Which, is common for a WAW not to want to rehash their problems.......WHEN they are suppose to be piecing. Many want to start over without fixing what is broken.

Stop trying to win her back. By stopping, you will end your smothering and pressure on her. Your conversation will change. You are totally obsessed of winning her back before she serves you with D papers. I think it is doing yourself harm.

[gogofo]

The all talk no action comment from her caught me off guard. If she really means it then she has been ignoring how she has told me that things seem different now.

I can understand that she would feel unconvinced when she is upset because her emotions have her feelings in the dumps. She may be thinking that if the changes were consistent she would not be feeling angry and sad.

She has told me on numerous occasions that things were different and nice and then came the caveat that it makes her upset when the changes are there because why could they not have been there before.

Sandi, do you think asking her to the concert would be pressuring her?

[labug]

Thanks Bug.

I have dialed back the physical touch. We haven't kissed on the lips in a month. Held hands maybe twice. Hugged maybe once a visit. Cuddle two or three times in bed. I completely understand the need to back off there.

Wait, why are you in bed with her?

Her LLs are quality time, acts of service, and receiving gifts; mine are the opposite, physical touch and words of encouragement. Ha!

I'ts common for partners to have th opposite in LLs.

What do you think quality time means to her? My H and I have very different views on QT. For me it's going to dinner or a movie, short getaways. For him it could be sitting at home, watching TV. If your version of QT and hers are completely different, that just rubs salt in the wounds.

I have slowly been saying that only she can work on herself, just not flat out in those words.

I'd stay away from telling her anything about what she needs to do. You may be 100% right but you're the last person she wants to hear that from. Remember you're the one who didn't change for all those years and now you're hinting that she needs to. Minefield.

I told her months ago that she needs to forgive me and that is something I cannot help her with. I did get a good recommendation for a forgiveness book from my coach, I may suggest that to her.

Has she asked for help from you? Proceed with extreme caution.

My feeling is she needs to feel good about where we are with our M for more than a week or two. A full month would maybe help her see that the change is something she can believe in.

Crystal ball stuff. She doesn't even know what she needs.

I will have to find the right words and time to ask what convincing would look like to her.

I'd wati for her to bring it up again.

Would inviting her to go to the concert be pursuing or pressuring?

Just say, I have these tickets, would you like to go with me? If she says no, drop it.

I know we would have an excellent time, I got the tickets 6 months ago and the concert is on our calendars. Maybe 're-extending the invitation needs to be done.

You don't know she would have an excellent time. You hope she would.

It seems you want to make this all better by sheer force of will. It won't happen, she has to come to it on her own and that's only by your consistent actions.

I try not to mind read about anyone but being a woman I could guess that she made her mind it was over because she for years has been dealing with "everything being your way." When she finally gathered the courage to make her break, you decided to change and now she's filled with all these conflicting emotions. She's afraid to open her heart to you because this might be a ploy just to get the marriage, not necessarily Her, back. Or perhaps a version of this has played out in your past and she is leary.

Go, you have to figure out who you want to be, and be that without the carrot on the stick being your W returning to the M.

Who do you want to be? What is your personal mission statement? What are your values? What is really important to you and how do you show that?

Let those things be your guide and maybe your W will see that you're a man worth taking a chance with.

[sandi2]

I really wish you would correct the dates in your signature line. You obviously have the wrong year, at least, for part of it.

I am confused. Are you separated or living together?

[gogofo]

Sandi, we are separated again. We were doing half the week with me staying at her place, half the week alone. But now I am back to separate houses.

I went to pick up the kids this morning and we ended up spending the morning together. I helped get the kids ready and some things around the house for her. She made me a coffee and we talked a little. I didn't hang around in her area or seek approval, she kept engaging me. It was a pleasant morning. We took the kids for lunch and she suggested having dinner tonight.

[Elsa]

Honestly, it sounds to me like she isn't ready to be done, but that you may end up pushing her away. Just be patient and see where this all leads.

[gogofo]

Wait, why are you in bed with her?

After the last separation we were splitting time with me staying the night and not staying the night. Because of her schedule and working late it made it easier and allowed us to be together some of the week and have her not feel overwhelmed by me being in her house all the time. It also allow me time to work on my house.

What do you think quality time means to her?

Quality time for her means planning something that takes thought. Date nights, movies, dinners together at home or out. Fires in the back yard, cuddling and talking with wine. Things like that.

I'd stay away from telling her anything about what she needs to do. You may be 100% right but you're the last person she wants to hear that from. Remember you're the one who didn't change for all those years and now you're hinting that she needs to. Minefield.

This I understand. It would be the equivalent of telling her that she is insane and I do not have any problems.

Has she asked for help from you? Proceed with extreme caution.

This is a grey area. I am not sure if she is asking for help or not. Sometimes I feel she is, and then I make a suggestion, then she says things are only on my terms. If I don't make a suggestion then she feels things are not changing or progressing. At least that is the feeling I get from her.

Crystal ball stuff. She doesn't even know what she needs.

Agreed, I need to stop my Mr. Fix-it routine with this (gonna be hard to do).

Just say, I have these tickets, would you like to go with me? If she says no, drop it.

I like that, simple and to the point.

You don't know she would have an excellent time. You hope she would.

Yes, definitely more accurate.

It seems you want to make this all better by sheer force of will. It won't happen, she has to come to it on her own and that's only by your consistent actions.

I have been and will continue to do consistent actions. If I can keep from pressuring her, then I could string together multiple weeks of consistent actions without heart ache, at least I hope it would go that way.

I try not to mind read about anyone but being a woman I could guess that she made her mind it was over because she for years has been dealing with "everything being your way." When she finally gathered the courage to make her break, you decided to change and now she's filled with all these conflicting emotions. She's afraid to open her heart to you because this might be a ploy just to get the marriage, not necessarily Her, back. Or perhaps a version of this has played out in your past and she is leary.

I think you are spot on with that. Also she felt I didn't care or even try in our M before. Now that it seems to be done she feels that I am reactionary and just trying to save it.

Mind reading here: I think the whole 80/20 rule is also coming into effect here. (80% of the issue being from things in your past, 20% from being in the current situation). Her father and mother would have big fights yearly with her mom leaving sometimes. The only time her mother ever got flowers, etc was when her father f'd up. This became an issue in our M. When she would ask for something I would try to find the "magic" time to do it for her. The day after did not work because she felt it was reactionary (for good reason). A week after it was still tender. Two weeks after and it was too late, etc. I would get frustrated and give up because if she mentioned something she needed or wanted in our M and then I provided it, it seemed to always have a negative connotation to it. She would not see that I was doing it because 1 she wanted it and 2 I wanted to lovingly provide it to her.

Go, you have to figure out who you want to be, and be that without the carrot on the stick being your W returning to the M. Who do you want to be? What is your personal mission statement? What are your values? What is really important to you and how do you show that? Let those things be your guide and maybe your W will see that you're a man worth taking a chance with.

I have been thinking a lot about these questions for the past year. The basic answer is I want to be someone who lets those he cares about know it, through words and actions. This applies to W, kids, moms, dads, g-pa, g-ma, friends, etc. I was never an emotionally open person before and I like the way it feels now.

My family comes first, work is no longer my top priority.

I will find happiness in my life outside of work success, which was a big issue and I have been working on for quite some time. I think I have made big progress here. Thanks Shawn Achor.

I also want to be a selfless giver. I have always taken a back seat in relationships and let others do the planning. Friends, family, wife, mom, all of them took the reigns and I was used to it. Reviewing my R with these people in this light makes me understand how they might feel I don't care about them. No more waiting for people to call or contact me or plan things. I have an opinion and the options to make things happen, and I like it.

[theoden]

Gogofo,

Sorry you are here. Hope this all works out for you. Here are my observations:

1. Your wife isn't quite done with you. It can go either way, at any moment. It will take several months (I'd guess at least 6) of consistent action on her part indicating that she's really in the marriage for you to even be able to breathe easily. Right now she's expecting you to "wow" her without pressuring her.

2. You are desperate to win your wife back and convince her to stop the divorce. Anyone can smell the fear in your posts. Your wife can probably sense it in your voice and texts. The pressure is smothering her. I wish I could just tell you to stop it. It's not so easy. That's why divorce-busting is so hard. You have to freakin' analyze every text and communication to try and come across as not needy and loving yet somewhat detached. Good luck with that. Not so easy.

3. I can also tell you that personal change is EXTREMELY hard. What or who exactly are you supposed to become to win your wife back? There's the "new person" you are suppose to become and all that GAL activity that is supposed to be for you and not your wife. (You see you had and "epiphany" and want to completely self-actualize. It's not that you are changing to get your wife to notice -- cough, cough) On the other hand there are things your wife wants you to show her not TELL her, that will convince her the relationship will be new and better. These, I presume, are things you weren't doing before and they are things you will continue to do regularly and flawlessly for the rest of your marriage in order to keep her happy. So, become a new person and live the rest of your life on probation. Tall order, I think. It's not that people can't change. It's not that miracles aren't possible. It's just that the stakes are so high and the real motivation is a reaction to your wife's marital unhappiness. If you get back together, the pressure that caused the "changes" you made will be lessened. And there's a strong possibility your behavior will slip back. If that's the case, you are in for a second cycle of this, and trust me, she won't be so friendly when she files the divorce papers the second time around.

4. From personal experience, personal change was a unicorn that was very hard to catch.. I read and tried so many things to "find myself", get centered, get strong so that I would be the kind of person that would re-attract my wife. What I didn't really look at what the possibility that my wife seriously contributed to our marital problems, too, and that taking on all the responsibility (we don't say we are, but to be honest, we tend to) for the situation is unhealthy. It prevents us from actually having a normal sense of outrage, self-worth and healthy boundaries. We are always screening our conversation and self-editing to the point that we lose a sense of who we are. A spineless milquetoast is not attractive to a WAW.

5. Your wife filed for divorce. Wake up. Stop for a moment and assume you are getting divorced. If this were to happen, what do YOU want, and what's best for your kids? Finances and custody. Think about it. Don't be in denial and face your divorce like a deer staring into the headlights of an oncoming Mack truck. Go speak to a lawyer. Don't try and talk her out of the divorce (it's unattractive and pressuring), but don't, for God's sake, just roll over (also unattractive). Stand up. State what you want. If it's coming to a divorce, let her know what YOU want.

6. You are too desperate and needy at this point to navigate a text-by-text analysis of your communications with your wife. Practice the Last Resort Technique. It will slowly help you regain your dignity. It will make her wonder about you. Be mysterious.

http://www.divorcebusting.com/blog/how-to-prevent-a-divorce-the-last-resort-technique/

7. Stop and ask yourself, "Do I deserve to be treated this way?" Having your heart broken, treated like a yo-yo husband, your wife making plans and breaking them at will, her constant playing hot and cold with you. This isn't acceptable. You are coddling her and rewarding her with your constant availability and love. Step back. A little sense of self and perspective might help.

8. If you have to do some GAL activity try something mind-expanding, adventurous and crazy. Rock or mountain climbing, boxing, Karate, Kick-Boxing. Thy help you practice one-mind (extreme focus), but they also build inner strength, confidence and a kick-ass persona.

Best of luck.

--Theoden

[gogofo]

Thanks Theoden, a lot to digest in your post. I have started to read Hold Onto Your N.U.T.s. and will be trying to figure out some of the things I will not waver on. I do need to figure things out and stop coddling her. Way easier said than done.

Thanks for the input.

[theoden]

Gogofo,

Yes...easier said than done.

2 take-aways from my post:

1. See a lawyer. Tomorrow.

2. Last resort technique.

[labug]

Theoden gives you some good info. Have you seen a L?

My questions about who you want to be (and notice I didn't tack on ...to bring your W back), thanks for answering.

Be that person.

With everyone, even when you don't want to be that person. Your W will either be re-attracted to you...or she won't but you're left with the prize, being the man you want to be.

That's where the rubber meets the road.

[theoden]

Gogofo,

I reiterate:

1. Go see a lawyer

2. Implement the Last Resort Technique.

Those are 2 ways not to coddle your wife. It will show her you are not afraid or desperate and that you actually have a spine. Those are both 180's by the way.

Stop trying to work on the relationship and discuss it.

When she decides to stop the divorce train and is ready to work on the relationship I think you should live apart for, perhaps 6 months, start dating, and THEN, perhaps speak of reconciliation.

She's seems too mercurial at the moment to really bank on any decision she makes for more than a couple of weeks.

[gogofo]

Theoden

I have not seen a lawyer yet for two reasons. The first is it makes me feel uncomfortable, the second is my best friend has an attorney. If or when I get served I will be contacting him immediately with the terms. He is aware that the W and I are having marital issues.

I will by going with the LRT, or a modified version of it. The W and I had a long talk last night and I will update when I get more time.

The short of it is she wants to work on us again. She did not feel good about filing. She said she wants to work on us. We are setting boundaries and dealing with some issues to make being together easier. Basically she needs to take the reigns more and I need to quit pushing.

More later...

[theoden]

Gogofo,

Seeing a lawyer is for your piece of mind and to protect your interests. He/she will be able to tell you what to do and not to do in the interim period. No one has to file. It's just risk management. If you wait till you are served papers, you may get caught with your pants down.

OK...LRT a little modified. Please don't give her exercises that remind her of the past. At least not for now. One of these days she'll have to put on her big girl pants and not fly off the handle when negative emotions arise.

OK. She wants to work on it "this week". Next week may tell a different story (if I'm reading your posts closely enough).

I suggest you live in separate households until she's real clear about wanting back into the marriage. I suggested 6 mos. This may sound a bit drastic. But why not try dating for 6 mos and let her get all hot and heavy for you, sneaking in sex when you can, and then have her beg you to move in cause she can't get enough of that Gogofo love. ;-)

Theoden

[gogofo]

We are not moving in, not for a while. Our tentative timeline is for me to get my house in order, bathroom remodel finished, storage rooms cleaned, and the house in a state to be ready to sell. At this point she can re-evaluate our living situation. We are in no hurry right now. My goal is just to string together good interaction after good interaction.

Long post alert...

Last night she invited me back over for dinner during for the kid swap. She had dinner she wanted to cook for us, she even offered to get groceries for me if I knew what I wanted.

We cooked dinner, together, which was like the old us. When we were eating it was nice. Shared a bottle of wine that was a gift for me from her aunt in Spain (Txakoli for those who know). In the middle of it she out of the blue says "how come I can't like you all the time like I do right now?" She just came straight out and said that and then followed with "I don't understand why I wasn't worth it before."

I responded with telling her she was always worth it, now I understand that and how my actions made her feel like she wasn't and how I want to change, etc.

So the relationship talks were on, but this time without high emotions. Also this time she started to take ownership over things in her life and how she feels. At one point I flat out just said that I assume she has things that she wants to change about herself, and she agreed and shared with me.

The one quick explanation for M crumbling is that she gave and gave and gave and worked hard at keeping us happy and doing things in the M. She took care of a lot of things and I let her. Things were equal in the beginning, but as time went on and things progressed the was doing a lot more and I wasn't, things were not even close to equitable. She tried her ass off and I reaped the benefits. The issue being I was a taker and used to getting taken care of and she was a giver and getting taken advantage of.

She said her angry feelings are from being mad at me and herself. Me for taking advantage and her for allowing it to happen instead of calling me on my sh!t. We also made a lot of assumptions that created issues with our perception of the other's actions. The biggest was that I must not care if I wasn't trying.

We talked for a couple of hours sharing the issues we have currently and the last issue that had her file papers. She said that she needs to take control of what she wants to and does not want to do. She said she felt pressured by me and my pace and felt that she had to go file so she could have control over how she felt. My pressure was forcing pain into her life. We discussed some assumptions that caused this and also that she needs to take ownership in the pace. She can't just be an innocent bystander.

I asked her what would "convincing" look like. She honestly said she had no idea. I said that it was alright, but when she has an idea it is important she lets me know. She has an unrealistic expectation that I should know exactly what she wants/needs and how to do it (her words). I told her that she needs to share what she wants and needs, no one can read her mind, and it kills and frustrates me to play this game.

My IC told me that "only psychopaths know exactly what others want, and that is a compliment, this is what makes them so effective." Made me laugh and feel a little more sane when he told me this. I felt like a self centered idiot for not being able to meet her expectations.

She hoped she would feel better when she signed the papers Wednesday, she said she didn't. She spent all day Saturday crying and feeling overwhelmed.

I made her positively answer that she wanted to work on fixing our M and she did agree. She is apprehensive, but I told her she needs to take control of the pace and have some ownership in the process.

We are going to have a night out at a concert on Wednesday. I asked her and told her it was up to her, no pressure either way.

I am going to follow the LRT pretty close and modify as needed when progress happens in our M, but I will be going at it slowly. We do not need these one week on one week off situations. Both our nerves are very fragile and we cannot take much more.

The hardest part was to trust in the method. I stopped the conversation at what felt like a high point, said I needed to go home and left. I really wanted to stay but kept telling myself that the best thing for us is to be apart right now.

So anyone reading this that feels that pursuing and pressuring will help, trust the method. My W flat out told me that she wanted to be with me but felt forced to file because I was pressuring her and she was not allowed to progress at her pace.

I don't know how much more of a definitive example you could find. Straight out of the WAW's mouth; do not pressure or pursue, they will feel forced into making decisions that they don't want to make just to make the pain or pressure stop.

[Card29]

That sounds very positive, gogo. Very wise to take it slowwww. I am more learning from your sitch than advising you, so I'll just encourage you to keep it up. There is a lot of very healthy interaction there.

[Bunches]

Gogo, I resonated so much with your description of how you got here in your sitch. Its amazing how much hindsight allows us to see. Sounds like there is room for possibility for you though. Hopefully she will figure things out. You seem to have a really calm grasp of your sitch though. Good for you.

[theoden]

Gogofo,

Good work. Keep it up.

Slow and easy. LRT I think helps. It's gonna take months before she's really ready.

No moving in for quite some time. Let her learn to value you.

By the way you don't have to own her version of the story: you were a taker, and she was a giver. Just listen.

Gogofo -- you are a good man fighting for your marriage. Don't forget that YOU are worth fighting for, too. There's a long line of lovely women waiting for your wife to screw this up. Remember that. You have options ;-)

--Theoden

[sandi2]

She has an unrealistic expectation that I should know exactly what she wants/needs and how to do it (her words).

I don't know if she reads romance novels, but I use to read a lot. One common theme I saw in them was how the hero always seem to know exactly what the woman was thinking and exactly what she desired. IDK, maybe it is a misconception that some girls get at some point, but reading these fiction stories that all give that same message, sure doesn't help straighten things out. It does cause problems for the men....and for the women, as well.