I cannot accept that this is it.

[billman12]

I do not know where to begin, so I will be short and answer questions to elaborate.

We were together 12 1/2 years. this past Oct 14th was our ten year anniversary. Just before we got married I was socially involved with another woman, but had no plans to cheat. I stupidly got drunk (first and last time ever) and the OW took advantage while I was passed out. My wife always believed that I was unfaithful due to circumstance regardless of my intention. I have no way to prove save for the OW admits the situation.

For the remaining time, every 2 years or so, she emotionally cheated on me, and I forgave her each time and we healed (so we thought). 3.5 years ago was the first mention of D. She was of course seeing another, and the first time that I know of that it was physical but not too far (as far as I know). about 2 months after this situation we got back together and she was So happy. We bought a home and were getting on with life. But we never resolved or fixed the issues that caused the initial break.

Then i lost my job and life and credit went to hell. And once again she was already confiding in another man about the beginning of this year (2014). But i did not know at this point. I knew she was unhappy so at the end of august she offered the D again. This time, I did not expect it at all, she said she wouldn't leave me. I of course made all the mistakes of asking her not to leave, the crying the anger and the guilt trips.

About 3 weeks after all this drama, i tried to compose but failed, i moved with my mother - 2 blocks away. Immediately she changed the locks, selling stuff, and moving on with life. We were talking and I thought for awhile i was getting through. Then one morning i found out from a stranger I was talking to, that her and the OM were intimate. I broke.

Later that same day while she was not home, I went into the home that was ours by using the sliding door in he basement (due to the locks). My intent was to cry in the home and I missed what was my life. I ended up in our room, and his cologne was still on the bed from that night. I took the sheets outside and planned to trash them, and then at that moment decided to burn them.

On Sunday the 28th she got a protective order while she was out, came home to see the sheets (which i burned b4 the order) and called in a violation. I was arrested and in jail for 9 days. The order stands until the 27 of this month. I have not had contact with her in any way in any direction since that Sunday (29th sept). I missed her birthday on the 7th and our 10 year anniversary on the 14th, and I know she is still seeing the OM.

I have generalized anxiety and that makes me prone to irrational decision making - that with a broken basket case of a heart is not helping me.

I am torn between waiting for this affair to end so that I might have a chance, or just leaving this entire situation alone.

I love that woman, and tried to give her the world. I do not know yet what went wrong, or what makes him so much better. And I am not sure how to find the strength to keep going.

[billman12]

I should also add that one reason she gave me is that she could not forgive my past indiscretion, regardless of my reason. But the OM is currently separated from a wife of near 10 years himself and the both have cheated on each other 2x. SO i ask myself why she would think that this OM would be any...better for her than I. SO i understand that it is Only an affair, and someday it will end. Just not sure if I can hang in there, and slowly getting to the point of do I want to.

[Mozza]

Wow, this sounds rough. Good on you for coming here to get some support. It says a lot about your self-awareness and desire to right a wrong. I'm no veteran and I just arrived here a few days earlier, but I hope you'll find here the support that you need.

Probably too late to tell you that burning the bedsheets was not a good idea; sounds like a judge made that clear already. I can see that jealousy can make people do crazy things - perhaps you should have a look at the forum on this topic to see how others handle it.

By the way, I believe there's no point in wondering in what way the OM is better (he's just different) and then rehash the ways in which this relationship makes no sense, is contradictory, etc. My W may or may not have someone already and I don't think he would measure up if we both started at the same point -- but I had the strain of 10 years of relationships, many hardships, and 2 kids on my side and was not aware of the competition, so he won (with him, it's simple). If you really want to do something about it, make yourself attractive. Fix the issues for which she left you, be consistent, give her space, GAL, etc. It's not going to be easy, but find motivation in the idea that every effort is a step towards your goal -- like the pain of running a marathon. Good luck.

[25yearsmlc]

Dear Billman,

First off, you are in a great place now, but admittedly for a lousy reason. I'm sorry you are in pain but most or all of us have been there.
There will be a LOT of advice coming your way. Post frequently but in short posts at first, to generate more replies. (And if you can make your paragraphs shorter they are easier to read, fyi).

Here are a FEW Basics.

You NEED TO READ the book(s) that form the basis of this site. You really do. That is partly b/c our approach is radically different from many, although really simple. In short, We believe in doing what HELPS the relationship and NOT doing (or doing a Lot Less of) what hurts it.

Yeah, it seems obvious. But believe us when we say, it's NOT always that way.

A lot of marriage advice spends a ton of time on the past and that MIGHT be useful with a therapist but I find that staring at the past can keep you stuck and it definitely keeps your focus off of YOU and you are the only person you control. That statement is so important for you to fully process and digest, I'll repeat it.

YOU are the only person you control so your focus has to be on what YOU CAN DO and NOT on what she is doing or why she is doing this, except as it relates to you. Okay?

Also, many of us have "scorecards" and those do not belong in a marriage. But I can already sense you have one such thing by your post, but remember how your vows might have included the part about "love does not keep a record of wrongs",--keep that in mind. Yet a lot of us do keep such a record...

Thing is, scorecards never ever help a marriage. They are always destructive. They foster resentment, and they hinder forgiveness. (Besides, our spouses have their own scorecards --- and trust me, on theirs, we are not winning!)

Second, the book Divorce Busting, and its' sequel, Divorce Remedy, explain the terms and concepts we use here.

So just coming here and reading and posting will NOT do for you, what reading the books AND posting here will.

Plus, frankly, it seems a tad lazy to post here and tell folks your problems, only to refuse to read a stinking book. I mean, that's not your issue at this point, I'm just warning you of how it comes across when it happens.

So let's have a look at your situation...but no matter what, remember this:
THERE IS HOPE.

I gave my marriage a "10% chance of success" in 2006....so there you go.

I do not know where to begin, so I will be short and answer questions to elaborate.

We were together 12 1/2 years. this past Oct 14th was our ten year anniversary. Just before we got married I was socially involved with another woman, but had no plans to cheat. I stupidly got drunk (first and last time ever) and the OW took advantage while I was passed out. My wife always believed that I was unfaithful due to circumstance regardless of my intention. I have no way to prove save for the OW admits the situation.

To re-cap and be clear, this "event" with a woman you dated, occurred prior to the marriage? And you blame the other woman for it, correct? And this festered for a decade?

And you say/imply that you were not unfaithful. Yet you also say that the OW "took advantage" of you, when you were drunk. Well...drunk or not, did you have sex or not? IF you can recall it, then it happened. IF you cannot recall it, then you don't know. IS that about accurate?

Did you out and out apologize, or did you get mad at your wife for bringing it up, or what? Because for one event, which occurred prior to the marriage, to still bother her, is unusual and odd.

How did she find out about it anyhow? Was there other deceit involved?


For the remaining time, every 2 years or so, she emotionally cheated on me,

Explain this accusation^^^, and explain why you phrase it this way.^^^ Are you connecting the trust issues with her choices and what does "emotional cheating" mean, to YOU?

and I forgave her each time and we healed (so we thought).

How did you forgive her? How did you show that? I ask b/c you bring it up with a timeline on it ("every 2 years") so you clearly still think about it. Did you throw it in her face ever, or hold it over her head, or what?

Why did you think you had healed? And why did you believe SHE had healed?
How did that supposedly happen?

And did you really truly believe that her "emotional" cheating, whatever that means, is related solely to an event 10 years ago, and which you do not really feel responsible for?

Are you certain Nothing else could be bothering her??

3.5 years ago was the first mention of D. She was of course seeing another,

What do you mean by "she was of course" and "seeing another"?? Was she having an affair? Why do you say that and how do you know?

and the first time that I know of that it was physical but not too far (as far as I know).

about 2 months after this situation we got back together and she was So happy

I am confused. 2 months after WHAT situation? Can you give me a thumb nail sketch of timelines here?

Like how long were you married before an actual affair (or define what you mean by "emotionally cheating") happened -- and how it was handled by YOU. How was it handled by her?

We bought a home and were getting on with life. But we never resolved or fixed the issues that caused the initial break.


What do you mean by "initial break",--(did you separate before?)

and What issues do YOU think caused that? This is VERY important.

Then i lost my job and life and credit went to hell.

I assume you realize that the underlying problems which existed before the stress of losing a job, are fundamentally & chronically going to sabotage your marriage.

There is a major lack of trust going both ways. WHY do you think that is?


And once again she was already confiding in another man about the beginning of this year (2014). But i did not know at this point.

1) why would she "again" confide in another man? When she would tell you problems she had, or when her feelings for you or the Marriage foundered, how did you react?
Were you supportive and reflective, but confident, or did you freak out on her? DIG DEEP...

2) How did you learn that she was confiding in another man?


I knew she was unhappy so at the end of august she offered the D again. This time, I did not expect it at all, she said she wouldn't leave me. I of course made all the mistakes of asking her not to leave, the crying the anger and the guilt trips.

Why did you think back then, that she was unhappy? What did she SAY to you? When you say she "offered the D again", it is a strange way to say that.

Do You mean she "threatened" or said she "wanted" a divorce - OR DID YOU Bring it up first?

So at this point, ^^ to your face, she said she'd stay - but she did not really want to, and so to keep peace with you, she pretended to concede and said she'd stick around? Is that about how you see it now?

About 3 weeks after all this drama, i tried to compose but failed,


Sorry to ask, but I need clarity so I can make suggestions, and this ^^ is vague to me. '
What do you mean when you say you "tried to compose but failed"?

Did she ask you to move out?

i moved with my mother - 2 blocks away.



TO HER, she probably felt that you were now separated.
As much as you hate this fact, but as often as it happens around here, the thing is, A LOT of WASs feel that once they have "Declared" their intent/desire to divorce they are free,

and then if there is an actual separation -- they are "practically single"...especially if there are no children.

But the thing is, even if you say or believe she's "wrong" to do that, so what?

What matters is how SHE sees it, and you condemning her will NOT help YOU....okay?

Immediately she changed the locks, selling stuff, and moving on with life. We were talking and I thought for awhile i was getting through.

meaning, what?

Then one morning i found out from a stranger I was talking to, that her and the OM were intimate. I broke.

I'm sure you were very hurt. But geez, that is a VERY WEIRD thing to learn from a stranger?!! HOW on earth did THEY KNOW she and the OM had been intimate? Why would they TELL YOU??? OMG....(Sheesh, I must live in the most normal boring neighborhood.)

But you know, it hurt you b/c She seemed to be moving on so fast, but possibly to HER, she had begun moving on long before.

I'm not defending that, just observing it as a possibility.

Later that same day while she was not home, I went into the home that was ours by using the sliding door in he basement (due to the locks). My intent was to cry in the home and I missed what was my life.

Sorry but I don't get what^^ that means. You wanted to "cry in the house"??

Can you explain what your GOAL was in doing that? Around here it's crucial to keep your eye on your goal. In all you do or say, ask yourself if you'll get yourself closer or farther from the goal....then act/speak. But not before.

(I used to want to ream my h for the lousy things he was doing, until my DB friend asked me what my goal was AND what I was expecting my husband to "do with that"...and that stopped me in my tracks more than once. She made me realize I was just pushing him farther away.)

I don't want to hurt you more than you already are, but you need to know That is not an appealing thing to do.

(Sorry, but No woman would be impressed or turned on by that.)

Isn't it more likely you were just snooping? Hey, you sure would not be the first! But you have to admit it.


I ended up in our room, and his cologne was still on the bed from that night.

Oh man, you were really getting into the bed and sniffing around for some PAIN...

SO No more self inflicted injuries, okay? You have enough pain, no need to add or seek out more.

I took the sheets outside and planned to trash them, and then at that moment decided to burn them.
On Sunday the 28th she got a protective order while she was out, came home to see the sheets (which i burned b4 the order) and called in a violation. I was arrested and in jail for 9 days. The order stands until the 27 of this month. I have not had contact with her in any way in any direction since that Sunday (29th sept). I missed her birthday on the 7th and our 10 year anniversary on the 14th, and I know she is still seeing the OM.

Well you NEED TO KNOW that behavior like that is frightening to most people. You may love her but to most of the world, actions like that are not rational, which you admit (below). That is frightening.

Women are usually not as physically strong as men, and it scares the heck out of us when our men "lose their sh$#"... We are often the targets of where their tempers land...


I have generalized anxiety and that makes me prone to irrational decision making - that with a broken basket case of a heart is not helping me.
I am torn between waiting for this affair to end so that I might have a chance, or just leaving this entire situation alone.

I love that woman, and tried to give her the world. I do not know yet what went wrong, or what makes him so much better. And I am not sure how to find the strength to keep going.

3 things are jumping at me right at the moment.

1) You probably DO know what went wrong, or a lot of it. Read this post again and dig deep. The people who benefit the most from this ordeal are the ones who bravely look within, and CHANGE THEIR LIVES.

I did, and so have others. By becoming the best man YOU, Billman can become, you will become a better partner for your wife (or whomever).

So figure out your role in this and start owning that part, which means working on NOT having those flaws.

What would your wife SAY went wrong in the marriage, if she were here?

Start by looking at her complaints and see which, if any, are valid.

What of those things would YOU Like to change yourself? Begin there...

2) You need some professional help with your anxiety and your depression and thoughts of harming yourself.

You are NOT the first person to need help. (I DID.) And most of us went to see a about 1, 2 or 5 therapists, counselors, marriage counselors, Div Busting Coaches, shrinks, MD's for sleep aids, anti depressants, anti anxiety meds, THE WHOLE shebang. Welcome to the club!

Avail yourself of the many resources our society has. That's what they are here for.
That's part of how you'll go on and improve your life and for now, it's how you GO ON LIVING.

3) Finally, dig deep into your spiritual life and figure out where you stand on that. I'm not preaching to you.

But IF you are a believer in God or a higher power or force of love in the universe, GET CLOSER to him/that. It can really help and clarify things. IF not, get your closest friend or family member. Connect and lean and come here too.

Come here and post and see what has helped others. This is a great resource.

If I went back in time to 2006 and could only talk to one person and do only one thing, I'd re-hire my DB coach and come here and post. I had a great MC too, but if I had to choose just one, it'd be my DB coach. And posting here gets you some great feedback from people who are rooting for you but also will tell you the real deal too.

For now, you have to GO DARK with your wife. No pursuit, of course b/c of the law AND b/c you are here trying to show her the NEW you.

You must GAL (= Get A Life) --the book explains how vital it is to GET A LIFE b/c it helps you do many important things.

Like DETACH, b/c you need to protect yourself and you need to get some distance and objectivity -and you can't when you are all mired in obsessing about where she is and what she is doing/thinking/feeling. PLUS YOU HAVE TO DETACH to show you are not crazy or dangerous to her. Getting A Life helps you Not obsess..

You don't want to come off as the "crazy ex". NOT attractive, NOT helpful, and not who you really are anyhow.

She fell in love with you once. What were you like then? Let's hear about who that guy was, and go find him, okay?

I'll post more later, after you flesh out the details here.

Good luck, don't give up and fill us in. Hang in there, you are not alone and this is not hopeless.

Besides, a divorce is just a piece of paper. I have had 2 family members divorce and later remarry their former spouses. It's not my idea of a plan but hey, it happens.

IN their cases they ALL got help and made big changes in themselves, and I am not even sure they planned on reconciling. They were apart for a few years, (5 years in one case). They got better TOOLS for life and the curve balls we get thrown at us, so they were really happier the second time around


For now you have a lot of homework. Keep posting and keep on keeping on!

[Card29]

billman, you have found the best community you can on the Internet for your situation ("sitch" on these boards). There probably is nothing in your sitch that hasn't been addressed here before. So pay attention to the vets (veterans) by looking at people's registered date. I am a relative newbie, while 25yearsmlc is of the vets. There are other great ones that post regularly. Here are a few other basic things you should know:

- make a profile signature like others you see here. Include basic info to help people help you (ages, years together, years married, children, and important dates (BD [bomb drop], separation, D papers filed, etc)
- read Divorce Busting and Divorce Remedy immediately
- befkre that, at least read the post that is pinned at the top of this forum - Sandi2's 37 Rules. Read them everyday and follow them religiously while you are in this state
- also at the too of this board is a good resource - acronym list

Have you read Surving an Affair or His Needs Her Needs? Sounds like your R has been plagued with A from the beginning. A lot of the info in those books won't be applicable until your W is ready to work on the M (if she ever is), but you probably need to learn some of those concepts. Also, if you haven't read it, most here have read 5 languages of love, and many people use terms from that book to. The books I'm mentioning in this paragraph are not DB books, but are useful too. But DEFINITELY start with DB and DR. Order them ASAP and begin reading as soon as they arrive (or as soon as you download them).

[billman12]

well that is a lot to answer, so here goes.

To re-cap and be clear, this "event" with a woman you dated, occurred prior to the marriage?

No it was after, i was mistaken the timeline

Well...drunk or not, did you have sex or not?

I was passed out, i never drink, the OW confirmed that she essentially raped me and I was not conscious the entire time. I had drank an entire 12 pack. At the time my wife was a recovering teenage alcoholic and I never understood the "hype" of getting drunk - so i stupidly tried it. And to clear up it was after the marriage I was not thinking.

How did she find out about it anyhow? Was there other deceit involved?

She knew I was talking to her, During the first 2 years, I was not a very good person to her as I should have been. I loved her and gave her the world, but had anger issues that I was unaware of. The incident with the OW happened during a small breakup and my reason at the time was I was talking to her about how I was treating my wife. I had no intent of affair. At this point, even I did not know the OW and I had sex. almost 5 years later, the OW initiated a court order for a bloodtest and thats when this came out that she had a kid from sex that we obviously had. I tried to assure my wife i did not know, and the OW confirmed what happened - she never believed it.

The emotional cheating that refered to every two years or so: I never really "fixed" my anger, i just diverted it. I was always "in control" and she would talk to other people and would eventually have these friends that were there for her when she did not feel close to me. I was always unaware of these until I found out in some way. And again, I professed love and change without ever really getting the issue resolved.

Did you throw it in her face ever, or hold it over her head, or what?

No once it ended, i left it alone, I forgave her truly - but mainly because I guilted myself to believing it was all my fault.

Why did you think you had healed? And why did you believe SHE had healed? How did that supposedly happen?

Because she appeared happy again, and i would control my anger and anxiety issues (i did not know i had anxiety at this point). And we both fell back to our normal dead rhythm. We did not fix anything.

And did you really truly believe that her "emotional" cheating, whatever that means, is related solely to an event 10 years ago, and which you do not really feel responsible for?

I do feel responsible, and she had claimed forgiveness, I think i took it for granted, and she never really healed. I cannot be sure if that event was the only cause.

Are you certain Nothing else could be bothering her??

If I would just throw these answers out, she is materialistic, worries about money, believed marriage should be a fairy tale. And I was not consistent in any of these respects.

What do you mean by "she was of course" and "seeing another"?? Was she having an affair? Why do you say that and how do you know?

at this point 3.5 years ago, she told me she was talking to another man, she said it was not physical (well not to the point of sex). I never questioned it, so I cannot be sure of that. She has never been alone, i meant "of course" becasue everytime she tried to end us - there was another man involved - every time.

I am confused. 2 months after WHAT situation? Can you give me a thumb nail sketch of timelines here?

2 months after she dropped the 1st bomb, she let me back in. (Sept 2011 - Nov 2011)

What do you mean by "initial break",--(did you separate before?)

This refers to the (Sept 2011 - Nov 2011) break.

and What issues do YOU think caused that? This is VERY important.

That break was caused by my control. She did not have a license, or any freedom. It was not my intent, but i was suffocating her and did not realize it until then.

There is a major lack of trust going both ways. WHY do you think that is?

I did trust her, I thought she was happy, and took advantage that she said she wouldn't leave again. as far as why she didn't trust me. . work wise - i never held a job long. I cannot think of any other trust issues - I was always about her - i don't have a friend in the world (seriously) - let alone another woman to talk to.

1) why would she "again" confide in another man? When she would tell you problems she had, or when her feelings for you or the Marriage foundered, how did you react?
Were you supportive and reflective, but confident, or did you freak out on her? DIG DEEP...

no, that's just it. I would always talk about our issues, and what we could do to fix them, i did not yell or argue ever - since we got back together from the first break. Ever.

2) How did you learn that she was confiding in another man?

She was deleting her text messages, starting about a month before the first bomb. and I did not put 2 and 2 together until about a month After the bomb. She had a girlfriend and she claimed it was always her she was talking to her. I confronted her after that month ish, and she confirmed they were "friends" and they had been for awhile. I knew what that meant. SHe was "involved" in some way, before the bomb.

Do You mean she "threatened" or said she "wanted" a divorce - OR DID YOU Bring it up first?

She told me she was unhappy about 2 months before the 2nd D. she explained that it was about my recent job loss and our finances going to crap. And I was a boring father, i was not attentive to the children, not mean or bad - just lazy parent. - at this point I started to change that, looked for a 2nd job, and was Much more active with the kids. but nothing was getting better. She had also said during this conversation that "I am not going to leave you, I am not doing that again"
One day, i woke up and made the dumb stupid decision to suggest we should get a D. - and she ran for it. Right to his arms.

...keep peace with you, she pretended to concede and said she'd stick around? Is that about how you see it now?

Yup

Sorry to ask, but I need clarity so I can make suggestions, and this ^^ is vague to me. '
What do you mean when you say you "tried to compose but failed"?

I was trying to be civil, and have "peaceful" conversations about getting back together. I kept breaking - crying and groveling.

Did she ask you to move out?

not directly. she said I could stay . but i knew my anxiety would blow the whole thing - i.e the begging and crying - i knew i had to give her space - also this was before I knew of the OM.

I thought for awhile i was getting through.
meaning, what?

we had conversations (before I knew of OM) about her needing space and time to decide what she wanted. those tidbits of hope I read from her replies to my questions.

VERY WEIRD thing to learn from a stranger?!!

Once I found out about the OM, i dug for info on FB. found out he was married and separated. I contacted the OM wife and she had told me she knew and that they had been together . intimately. and I broke down. I confronted her that morning and she denied, then finally caved. I asked when was the last time and she said last night. that meant in our home in our bed, while my children slept. - I did not take that well.

You wanted to "cry in the house"??

After I confronted her and went back to my moms crying like a baby. she went to her fathers house with the kids. I went back to what was my home, and just planned to reminisce. I missed what was my life. I sat on the floor for about 15 minutes playing with my dogs, and was just looking around the house. I noticed my pictures were missing, and there was nothing left of me in the home.

sniffing around for some PAIN...

wasnt the plan...the morning before I was wastching the kids while she worked (trying to be civil) she asked me to bring up a tv from the basement - so she could watch tv at night in be. so i did . when I went into the room i remember the tv and had the thought . she had me bring it up so she could watch TV in be with the OM. The bed was unmade, i knelt by the bed and just dropped my head to cry. Then i smelled the cologne - i was not looking for it. i got up to leave, the cologne was on my shirt. - i took of my shirt and took it and the sheets to the trash outside, and missed the can. That was the moment i decided to burn them, and hated i did it right after.

[billman12]

Oh and Divorce Busting in in the mail, i bought it last week.

[billman12]

Just want to vent a bit.

I find myself thinking of ways to get this affair over with. I know that there is no guarantee I will "win her back" if that does happen. But I feel like I need to have hope and faith that we can be a good family, and a loving one if we can get through this.

I understand that my needs right now are to grow and heal, but I am having a hard time with these emotions and thoughts. I know what the right things are to do, but I find myself thinking of what I could do or try to "speed" things up. Then I calm down and realize I must not do anything. It's an endless pattern. I need help controlling it.

I cannot wait until the book arrives, to occupy my time more and learn to do the right thing.

[Mozza]

I know what the right things are to do, but I find myself thinking of what I could do or try to "speed" things up. Then I calm down and realize I must not do anything. It's an endless pattern. I need help controlling it.

Oh, how I know what you're talking about. Thankfully, it usually takes some time to pick up the phone or write an email, so we should be able to control ourselves. I think about it, but I never get close to doing it. No contact since Friday in my case (she emailed me about a discovery she made at a restaurant we found together... sigh) and I try not to imagine how much fun she has on her week-end of freedom (I have the kids and we're having fun).

The good thing is that you can accumulate points by doing nothing. Keep doing just that!

[billman12]

How long does nothing take, for the points to matter? if there is a "time".

[Little]

I used to get antsy about wanting to text my WAS, but then I realized it's satisfying to let him text me first and ignore him. LOL.

[25yearsmlc]

Billman,

Bad news and good news.

The bad news is you have a lot of issues that are yours and yours alone, and you need to own them.

You were vague about what role you played in the marital challenges you face, but you played a huge role. You need to see this asap.

No more glossing over your flaws and skimming them to get BACK to hers, b/c she is not here trying to save the marriage. You are. So STOP focussing on her, today. ONLY focus on you.

The GOOD NEWS is that all this means you are NOT POWERLESS to repair things, b/c you only control you, and you are the lynchpin to repairing most of the problems in the marriage, b/c most of them are related to your behaviors.

By your own admission, you lack a lot of self awareness. You said you did "not know" or were "not aware" that you have major temper/anger issues AND that you are have an anxiety disorder AND that you a re controlling. You had to have her or others point it out. That's troubling. So start by dealing with that and it does require professional help.

Are you in treatment for any of these issues?
Okay, now to your post...

let me say up front, your marital history was quite often very self serving.

You seem to have double standards that allow you to do things that always have a wordy confusing explanation, which absolves you of responsibility or minimizes your culpability.

Yet you assume the worst about her behaviors and intentions AND you let yourself off the hook on almost everything, but blame her (or OW or life's unfairness I guess) for a lot.

I tell you this NOT To berate you but because You do it, at your peril. If you TRULY want to save your marriage, you must change this behavior - asap.

Just want to vent a bit.

If venting calms you, do it. But if it makes you more angry or keeps you stuck in victimhood, avoid it.

I had to realize that most, not all but most of my venting was NOT helping ME. My anger was consuming me, (not h, only me).

I find myself thinking of ways to get this affair over with.

STOP THAT NOW. Instead, work on yourself. Stop all the CONTROLLING BEHAVIORS. Do you see them better now? I hope you will learn to see it more with our help. But this drive of yours to control everything she does just screams out at me throughout your posts. Stop it. Look in the mirror if you MUST DO something and work on you.

I know that there is no guarantee I will "win her back" if that does happen. But I feel like I need to have hope and faith that we can be a good family, and a loving one if we can get through this.

No walk away spouse returns to marriage they left, UNLESS they come to believe,

that marriage to their spouse, can be better/different than before.

It's YOUR JOB TO SHOW HER THAT it can be better/different than before and you do that one way and one way only... You Demonstrate changes in you, to get there.
Stop the rest of all the manipulations and controls b/c that is MORE OF THE SAME and you have to back off and stop that. Read the books asap and talk to a counselor to get this through to you, b/c the more YOU DO to control or influence her, the worse YOU MAKE IT.

The more you challenge her choices, the more you force her to defend them.

Your choices have NOT gotten you to a good place, Billman. So try to listen to us and read the books and learn from your mistakes; unfortunately my sense is you want to repeat the same mistakes that got you here. But more of that stuff will not help you.


I understand that my needs right now are to grow and heal, but I am having a hard time with these emotions and thoughts. I know what the right things are to do, but I find myself thinking of what I could do or try to "speed" things up. Then I calm down and realize I must not do anything. It's an endless pattern. I need help controlling it.

We can only do so much here. You need professional help. Are you getting it? It's not a shameful thing; and you would not be alone in needing it.

I cannot wait until the book arrives, to occupy my time more and learn to do the right thing.

Hey Billman, I feel like I had to PRY out the less flattering facts from you in your story. For future reference that isn't really going to help you, b/c it slows down our search for what will help you the most.

When you say you were raped, you better be careful using that term b/c rape victims I know, would object. They'd object b/c they'd say your story was pretty incredible.

They'll wonder how you could be "totally passed out & unconscious" AND produce a child - AND not know that for years,

and they may argue that even if all of that^^^ were true, (which defies most beliefs about conception) they'd still wonder about the whole set up in the first place. (Basically, "what were you thinking???" comments would be made, I think).

Even now, you have not come out and said "oh btw I have a child out of wedlock for whom I pay child support, which is money my own family could have used..".

Instead, the tough parts of the story came out in a piece meal fashion that was very confusing to read. . Making it hard to decode makes it look more suspect
Do you get what I'm saying there?

When I asked you why there were trust issues, you said you did not know why.

Billman, you need to work on self awareness or you won't understand how your actions are viewed by others. And as long as you pretend to not know, or really don't learn how to see yourself objectively, you risk more heartache.

You need to know, for instance, that burning the sheets looks batchit crazy to the rest of the world. But you did it. It also could have your custody rights affected.

So I would urge you to SLOW DOWN and take a deep breath (or 50) and THINK a lot more before you do another thing like that. Don't trust YOUR instincts right now...your emotions are not helping you.

When your emotions get you in trouble, you have to stop letting them decide things for you, while expecting them to solve the problems. Remember the definition of insanity is doing the same behaviors again, but expecting different results...
I think the more you own your problems and take responsibility for them, the more likely you are to get your wife back.

Also you said you have no friends except for her.Thats not good news for either of you.
Making and keeping friendships active, requires investing in others. So having no friends but her, doesn't flatter you. It makes it look as if you don't make the effort (which is also sort of how she describes your parenting) . I Highly recommend you read the book "Co-dependent No More" and "The Five Love Languages", which I think all couples should read. (Read them after you finish the DB book(s).)

Having no friends other than your wife is also Not healthy for either of you.
That is way too much pressure to put on a spouse. It means they must fill ALL YOUR SOCIAL and EMOTIONAL needs. We are responsible for our own happiness and self esteem. (Seriously, we are and we always were).

No ONE Person can do all that, or should. It's not healthy and it must have smothered her.

Do you see that now?

So now lets get back to YOU. What problems do YOU want to work on, in you?

[Mozza]

How long does nothing take, for the points to matter? if there is a "time".

How I wish I knew this! I've been asking this question too in my conversation, but there doesn't seem to be a clear answer. You definitely seem to be way too early though. I'd expect that she will start reaching out to you, at least a little. A friend told me: "You'll know when it's time" Perhaps he's right, but that's not very precise either.

I suspect it's enough time for two processes to run their course. First, your wife has to de-escalate her negative feelings for you. At first, she wants out and far. All she'll give you is rejection. Then she'll feel a little less bruised and become less sensitive to your presence. She may see you as you are, not as you were. Second, you need to be in a better place where you have a life and you detach. It's almost impossible to bear this thought in the beginning, but I'm starting to understand that it's the only healthy way to get back together. If people tell me this, I resist, but I can see how it applies to other people. See what I mean? ;-)

Sorry I can't be of more help at the moment.

[25yearsmlc]

PS

Since there is a protective order on you, don't risk more legal action against you or losing custody rights to your kids,

b/c your tendencies are to "make things happen" and those emotions are not guiding you to good choices. Back off b/c you should and b/c you MUST.

You need to be doing 180s, ( a term from the book that is fairly self explanatory)

which are NEW and DIFFERENT behaviors that show you are changing AND that your wife's reasons for leaving you (her justifications) are no longer valid.

You want to counter her negative images of you with new positive different images. Make sense? Don't fuel the negatives more, contrast them with the new you. Get her to second guess herself by NOT pushing her to come around your way.

Be The Billman who backs off for real She said she felt smothered and I believe her. She won't ever examine her choices if you are constantly making her defend them.

Here are the "Newbie Rules" that are mere guidelines, b/c there is no one size fits all. But for now, try to live by these til you get a DB coach and know what approach you are going to take.

I reduced them and laminated them and carried them around for months...


1.Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or implore! This turns the spouse completely off!

2. No frequent phone calls to spouse.......let him/her be the one to call you. Then don't try to hang on to your spouse through conversation.....instead, you say good-bye first.

3. Do not point out good points in marriage or try to get him/her to read marriage books, look at your M pictures, etc. Especially, do not get him/her to read the DB/DR book. That is for you only!

4. Do not follow your spouse around the house like a puppy dog trying to get his/her time and attention.

5. Do not encourage talk about the future. They don't want to think about a future with you at the moment, so stay clear of that subject.

6. Do not ask for help from family members or friends. Don't discuss private matters with them that would upset your spouse.

7. Do not ask for reassurances (That is showing neediness and being clingy.) Show self-respect and self confidence.

8. Do not buy gifts to make "brownie points". (Can't buy his/her love and affection.)

9. Do not schedule dates together at this point. (That is pursuing.) Save for later when the R is much better.

10. Do not spy on spouse by checking emails, phone bills, etc. (Not good for you and will make matters worse.)

11. Do not say "I Love You" (It is being "pushy" and trying to make your spouse say it back to you......he/she will despise you for it.)

12. Act "as if" you are moving on with your life with or without them and that you are going to be okay. Keep a good attitude.

13. Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive at all times! In other words, be the best you can be and look the best you can look at all times. Even when wearing jeans and T-shirt, wear good cologne, b/c it does cause the spouse to take notice.

14. Don't sit around waiting on your spouse to see what kind of mood he/she is in or what he/she is going to do or say – get busy, think of things to do. Go to church, go out with friends, etc. in order to get a life for yourself without waiting on your wife/husband.....but it is okay to invite them, just don't act as if it will change your plans if they do or don't go.

15. When at home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation---then don't, wait for him/her) then, be rather scarce or with your words, but don't sound rude or too short like you are mad. If your spouse asks what's wrong....just say "nothing" and have a pleasant expression on your face. Keep it short and simple. Don't get into an argument! Stay polite and don’ t act like you are pouting. Use poise and class. This does not mean to act like you aren’t speaking, but don’t be overly talkative.

16. If you are in the habit of asking your spouse his/her whereabouts, ASK THEM NOTHING!! No matter what time he/she comes home! You are giving them space and asking no questions! You enjoy your time with your kids, friends, etc. Remember, you are getting a life, also.

***17. You need to make your partner think that you have had an awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you are going to move on with your life, with or without your spouse.

18. Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull back and wait to see if spouse notices and, more important, realize what he/she will be missing. (But never ask him/her if he/she has noticed any changes!!) This is important! If you do, then you have blown it.

19. No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment. This can confuse some of them b/c it is not what they expected. Show your spouse someone he/she would want to be around all the time, somebody that can be attractive and fun to be with. That somebody is you! Don't overkill in your attempts to outshine another person your spouse may be having an A with (if there is OP in the picture) to the point of looking like your attempts are "fake" b/c your spouse will see through all of that.

20. All questions about marriage should be put on hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may be a while) so this takes patience on your behalf.

21. Never lose your cool! Don't let your spouse trap you into a fight. Don't take her/his bait.....leave the room or the house for a while, if you have to, in order to avoid a fight.

22. Don't be overly enthusiastic, don't over-kill; in anything you do b/c it will come across as fake.

23. Do not argue about how your spouse feels about something (it only makes his/her feelings more negative.) Only they know how they feel!

24. Be patient......very, very patient. Give your spouse space and time. When you pull back, it will draw them towards you. It feels opposite of what you want to do, but it works!

25. Listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you. Look them in the eyes when they talk to you. Do not interrupt them when they are speaking and stop what you may be working on to look at them when they talk. This shows them that you really care about what they are saying.

26. Learn to back off, shut up and walk away when you want to speak out (or scream and yell). Sometimes the right thing to say is nothing.

27. Take care of yourself (exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil). This is for your health's sake.

28. Be strong and confident and learn to speak softly. Read self help books, inspirational books or listen to tapes. They are for you only.

29. Know that if you can do 180's, your smallest CONSISTENT actions will be noticed much more than any words you can say or write.

30. Do not be openly show that you are "desperate" or "needy" even when you are hurting more than ever and truly feel desperate and needy. This is a large turn-off for your spouse.

31. Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse, instead, focus on them.

32. Do not believe any of what you hear and less than 50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives because he/she is hurting and scared.

33. Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel.

34. Do not ask your spouse if he/she has noticed your changes. Those changes are for you and for the rest of your life...with or without your spouse. If it is just to get your spouse back...they won't last and the same problems will return.

35. Do not send several TM's or emails throughout the day unless absolutely necessary.

36. It is best to stay away from the bar scenes where other problems easily arise.

37. Do not backslide from your hard earned changes.

38. Know that in time, you really will be happy again, regardless of your spouse’s choices. Know this, believe it, and let it show.

39. Do not believe that showing your spouse your pain and misery proves your love for them. It just makes it harder to be around you.

40. Don’t worry about how the past is viewed. What matters is this day and “from this day forward.” Learn to let go of the past and what you cannot control. It’s a lot to let go of, but it is freeing.

[billman12]

I used to get antsy about wanting to text my WAS, but then I realized it's satisfying to let him text me first and ignore him. LOL.

I have not had Any contact with her in any context direct or indirect since the day I went to jail. I also have no idea if she has thought about it or not. Some of me expected her to say..something on the 14 (our ten year date), but I have still heard Nothing from her, no tried contact at all. - I have no intention of trying so either. I believe it is in the best interest for her to make first contact - regardless of how long this takes.

[25yearsmlc]

I used to get antsy about wanting to text my WAS, but then I realized it's satisfying to let him text me first and ignore him. LOL.

I have not had Any contact with her in any context direct or indirect since the day I went to jail. I also have no idea if she has thought about it or not. Some of me expected her to say..something on the 14 (our ten year date), but I have still heard Nothing from her, no tried contact at all.

This is^^^ still all about HER. Billman, get off of the topic of HER and onto the topic of you.

Please reply to my post.


- I have no intention of trying so either. I believe it is in the best interest for her to make first contact - regardless of how long this takes.

clearly

[25yearsmlc]

Don't skip the hard parts of this. It's HARD as he11 and we know that.

Ironically, this gut wrenching ordeal ended up being a huge blessing in my life, and I'm sure even now, a part of you knows that you could/should come out of this a much better, more aware & loving man.

(At least you'll have confronted the anger, the controlling parts and the anxiety ridden way of thinking that has contributed to you being here and NOT being at peace within.)

Those^^ are darn good things to achieve, and they're mandatory for you to have a good healthy loving marriage, with anyone...not to mention being a good father. NOTE*** no woman is unmoved by the loving interactions of her children with their father. Be the best most involved father you can be now, b/c your children need you more now than ever.

And yes, it's a turn on...do it b/c it's right, but it probably doesn't hurt to know that some women stay with their h's solely b/c they are 'Good fathers/providers".

The kids will share their experiences with you, with her so you don't have to worry that you are not going to be thanked or that your efforts will go unrewarded. They will be.


Justs don't shy away from the parts of this that make you the most uncomfortable. That's where the real work is.

Remember when I said "the real journey in life is an inward one." It is true.

But the only way through this, is through it.

ARE YOU READY?

[Maybell]

25, Do husbands value a great mother the way you say wives value a great father?

[25yearsmlc]

I can only hope, but I'm a woman so you'd have to ask the men around.

My husband told me before, (and I know he still feels this way) that if we were to ever split and he were to date an OW, if she did not take to the kids - and they to her, she'd be out the door. I felt the same about OMs.

I can only assume that a man values the mother of his children in some honorific way. I sure hope so. (I admit that there may not be the same "need" of parenting from a stepmother, b/c the kids have their own moms, but that's not really the question you asked).

I think it's safe to say that a "bad mother" would be considered pretty bad news.

[Card29]

It just depends from one guy to the next, but yes, I'd say most men value a great mother. In His Needs, Her Needs, Harley talks about the emotional need of domestic support, which includes childcare. Historically, this was a need of men and was met by women, almost exclusively. It was a not a need a women. Times have changed, and now women also greatly value a good father. But according to Harley, it is still slightly more important to men.

[billman12]

[quote=25yearsmlc]Billman,

You were vague about what role you played in the marital challenges you face, but you played a huge role. You need to see this asap.

My intention was not to be vague, my intention was to answer the questions.


The GOOD NEWS is that all this means you are NOT POWERLESS to repair things, b/c you only control you, and you are the lynchpin to repairing most of the problems in the marriage, b/c most of them are related to your behaviors.

You say most of them, and that is where I may need help. I know that I am at fault as well, and do not intend to say this is all her fault. I have not yet begun to understand what I did to the extent that deserved this amount of punishment - it does not appear to fit the crime so to speak. I actually thought that after our first Bomb, I thought I was better.

By your own admission, you lack a lot of self awareness. You said you did "not know" or were "not aware" that you have major temper/anger issues AND that you are have an anxiety disorder AND that you a re controlling. You had to have her or others point it out. That's troubling.

The anger issues ended after that time 10 years ago, My anger was under control. The control issues were abundant and I realized those also after the first bomb, and again, i relinquished control at that time. All control. She made all decisions and handled money. We were not 50/50 since getting back together after the first bomb.


Are you in treatment for any of these issues?

No, but I have appts. After going to jail, I have literally 0 dollars in the bank and no cash. I have been working tons of Overtime to make up for this loss, so once money begins to flow again, I will be going to counseling for the anxiety.


Okay, now to your post...

let me say up front, your marital history was quite often very self serving.

I don't understand.

You seem to have double standards that allow you to do things that always have a wordy confusing explanation, which absolves you of responsibility or minimizes your culpability.

Maybe I am just responding in a way that makes sense to me, words are hard for me to get out when I am upset. Again understand this is not my intent to beat around the bush or absolve myself.

Yet you assume the worst about her behaviors and intentions AND you let yourself off the hook on almost everything, but blame her (or OW or life's unfairness I guess) for a lot.

My only argument to this (again not saying I do not deserve blame), she gave up, I did not - she did not have to and I as yet do not understand why her giving up was better than doing more. - especially since I thought things were getting better.


I tell you this NOT To berate you but because You do it, at your peril. If you TRULY want to save your marriage, you must change this behavior - asap.


I understand.


Hey Billman, I feel like I had to PRY out the less flattering facts from you in your story. For future reference that isn't really going to help you, b/c it slows down our search for what will help you the most.

I started the thread with "this will be short" and planned to elaborate with questions, because I did not want to start the thread with a book.

I know how the "rape" situation sounds, thats why I originally used taken advantage of. I have no explanation to this story that will make anyone feel better. If i heard it from someone else I would not believe it either. I was drinking and playing video games. I passed out. I remember very little about before I started drinking and have 10 years worth of trying to figure out the rest of it. She moved to michigan state a month after this (the OW) and there was no contact either was. so no - i had no idea or reason to believe the child s from me.

Even now, you have not come out and said "oh btw I have a child out of wedlock for whom I pay child support, which is money my own family could have used..".

I never intended to sleep with the OW, I was not even emotionally involved with her.

Instead, the tough parts of the story came out in a piece meal fashion that was very confusing to read. . Making it hard to decode makes it look more suspect
Do you get what I'm saying there?

Yes, i suppose my starting the thread the way I did was mistakenly done.

When I asked you why there were trust issues, you said you did not know why.

After the OW for me, I never did anything that gave her a reason to believe I did not deserve her trust. If she was insecure, I would show her whatever she asked for and answer every question, I never hid anything or lied from that point on.

You need to know, for instance, that burning the sheets looks batchit crazy to the rest of the world. But you did it. It also could have your custody rights affected.

I do understand that, but I would like to believe that the fact that it was a last minute and broken hearted thing, might make some difference in view. I get it was crazy, no doubt at all. But i did not plan it in the least.

So I would urge you to SLOW DOWN...

I have done Nothing since the day I went to jail. I am as slow as I can get at this point.

[b]When your emotions get you in trouble, you have to stop letting them decide things for you

^ the nature of anxiety, and knowledge that I need the professional help for.

Also you said you have no friends except for her.That's not good news for either of you.

I understand what you are saying here, but it does not affect me - unless we are in this ordeal. I understand that having friends is nice, but I don't really have an interest. I dont know if I can 'force' my self to have friends.

Having no friends other than your wife is also Not healthy for either of you.
That is way too much pressure to put on a spouse. It means they must fill ALL YOUR SOCIAL and EMOTIONAL needs. We are responsible for our own happiness and self esteem. (Seriously, we are and we always were).

never thought of it that way.

No ONE Person can do all that, or should. It's not healthy and it must have smothered her.
Do you see that now?

Yes



I have dealt with the anger, I no longer have that issue. Same with the control issues. Those are no more.
I was lazy, I did not help around the house.
I was not an attentive father - i did not always help with homework, i found reasons to not go outside and play with them. I did not take them anywhere (park, store, anywhere when i left the house), and certainly did not take them and give her time without them in the house (alone time).
I worked at home, so I was Always at home, and never went anywhere.
I was always in her face, i did smother her.
I was very sexual, but I did not try to romance her.

[billman12]

One more thing:
The GOOD NEWS is that all this means you are NOT POWERLESS to repair things, b/c you only control you, and you are the lynchpin to repairing most of the problems in the marriage, b/c most of them are related to your behaviors.

What does this mean, so long as she is with the OM?

[billman12]

I also have some questions that I will need help with.

The home we lived in, she is living there with the plan to allow it to Foreclose and then move when she has the money. Should we sell it, or should I leave that to her? (Her father gave her this idea), she has not paid the mortgage for 2 months now.

The electric is in my name, I do not live there, do I turn it off?

The car insurance is in my name, do I do anything about that?

Someone told me I should file the separation papers as that would not only 180 my predictable behavior, but also "slap" her in the face - a wake up call. Sounds good, but I feel that is a backfire waiting to happen. I presume that if she wants to do so then it should be her move.

Lastly, how do I talk to her when that time comes. What kind of answers do I reply. It has been suggested that I should avoid discussing us or fixing anything, and I should give the impression that I am finished.

I am not asking these questions for "answers", but more for guidance. I do not want to make mistakes, especially the anxiety prone decisions and reactions based on my emotions.

[25yearsmlc]

One more thing:
The GOOD NEWS is that all this means you are NOT POWERLESS to repair things, b/c you only control you, and you are the lynchpin to repairing most of the problems in the marriage, b/c most of them are related to your behaviors.

What does this mean, so long as she is with the OM?

Wow, that question surprised me and makes me a little sad.

I would like to think it means that you are going to work on becoming a better man b/c that's what you want to do.

BECAUSE IF THE ONLY reason you'd work to improve yourself is to get your wife back, then the changes are NOT authentic, they are tactical. And they won't last b/c they are not real.

You have to want to become a better man, b/c YOU WANT to be the best man you can be.

Do you see ^^^that? Does that makes sense?

Also, no matter what SHE does, you would be in a much better place emotionally, by making these changes. The changes I'm thinking of are changes that will help you be a happier man. (I have suggestions for how to get started - but right now I feel as if you need persuading to believe in it as a concept).

You'd be a more loving involved man and less of a spectator in life. The comment you made about not being interested in having any friends, to me,

sounds a lot like someone who says "I am lonely but I am so used to it that inertia has kept me frozen and stuck and I am paralyzed".

But maybe you need to ask yourself this:

WHAT is more frightening ---, to go on living like this and probably lose your wife for good, and an intact family, and to be distant from your children the rest of your life...

OR to make changes? Overcome your inertia and fear and that will be a start.

[billman12]

Do you see ^^^that? Does that makes sense?

Im sorry it was context, I meant what would that mean to her as long as she is with the OM. I want to do this for myself, I have become lazy and settled and need to get out of that slump. I just want to understand the mindset of why these changes would matter to her if she is "happy" with the OM.

Also, no matter what SHE does, you would be in a much better place emotionally, by making these changes. The changes I'm thinking of are changes that will help you be a happier man. (I have suggestions for how to get started - but right now I feel as if you need persuading to believe in it as a concept).

You'd be a more loving involved man and less of a spectator in life. The comment you made about not being interested in having any friends, to me,

sounds a lot like someone who says "I am lonely but I am so used to it that inertia has kept me frozen and stuck and I am paralyzed".

But maybe you need to ask yourself this:

WHAT is more frightening ---, to go on living like this and probably lose your wife for good, and an intact family, and to be distant from your children the rest of your life...

OR to make changes? Overcome your inertia and fear and that will be a start.
[/color] [/quote]

I need changes, I have no doubts about that. This past two months have told me this at least, if nothing else.

[25yearsmlc]

I also have some questions that I will need help with.

The home we lived in, she is living there with the plan to allow it to Foreclose and then move when she has the money. Should we sell it, or should I leave that to her? (Her father gave her this idea), she has not paid the mortgage for 2 months now.

Whoah, I thought you wanted to save your marriage....you don't figure these things out like this when that's a goal. (But see a lawyer if you need to protect your legal interests. IF you are willing to lose the family home, I'm taken aback).


The electric is in my name, I do not live there, do I turn it off?

Why would you have the electricity turned off? You have your wife and children there. What is your goal? Don't you think you'd have to pay some form of support to your wife for your kids? You want to take the food out of the refrigerator since you aren't living there? (Do you see how this sounds?)

DECIDE WHAT YOUR GOAL IS and then, make choices based on the goal and not on your emotions of the moment.

But turning the power off where your family lives does not sound like it would ever be a defensible choice. It's not loving, it's not responsible and it comes off as petty and vindictive or at best, clueless.


The car insurance is in my name, do I do anything about that?


See above...

Someone told me I should file the separation papers as that would not only 180 my predictable behavior, but also "slap" her in the face - a wake up call.



READ THE DB BOOKS and think a lot more before you DO anything.

Whoever suggested you "Slap" her in the face must not be on this board. And listening to the angry folks and those who want you to "Teach her a lesson" are going to confuse you a lot. (As my DB coach said, "it's not our job to 'teach our spouse a lesson' or 'show them consequences', b/c LIFE Does that.")

Honestly, Billman, I think you need to decide if you want to work on your marriage or just end it.

For a man who says he no longer has an anger issue, a lot of what you are asking sounds like someone who wants to punish his wife for leaving him, even though you are the one to have suggested the divorce.

Don't gloss over that, again. You omit important facts but it does not help you; it slows down your increasing your awareness and progress. I'd avoid doing that if I were you).


Sounds good, but I feel that is a backfire waiting to happen. I presume that if she wants to do so then it should be her move.

How does it "sound good?" Man you confuse me.

If you are HERE, it's b/c you want to save your marriage or better yet, repair and remake it into a healthy loving marriage. So no, you don't file for a separation if you don't want it.

Here in DB land, We tend to let our spouses do the work of ending the marriage, not us.

Yes, I filed for a sep b/c I did not want my h to mortgage our home as an "investment" with his Alaskan heroes, which he might have done. But I did NOT file it to end our marriage - but to protect our assets.

HERE ^^^^ You would be doing it as a tactic and it WILL backfire. Just like your "test" question about "offering" her a divorce. You say she jumped at that comment so why wouldn't she just jump at this?
You would also save her the filing fees...in your situation, it's a VERY BAD idea. (I suggest you get advice from people other than the person who told you this would "wake her up" or "Slap her face" (are they in a happy marriage?)

I cannot imagine it helping anything, whereas I can imagine about 5 ways it will end the marriage sooner - and maybe make it a lot easier for your wife to move on. IS that what you want?



Lastly, how do I talk to her when that time comes. What kind of answers do I reply. It has been suggested that I should avoid discussing us or fixing anything, and I should give the impression that I am finished.

I urge you to read the LONG "book" I posted to you. In that, I listed a lot of specific advice for you to use as a guide. I would refer you back to that.

In a nutshell, acting as if you are "finished" is NOT the way to go, but there are a lot of ways to show that you are moving forward out of respect for her stated desires. They are covered in those 40 guidelines.

You can be regretful about the end of a marriage (who wouldn't be?) but without being whiny or needy or clingy. Like you know that even though it's sad to divorce, you are confident you will be happy again and not lonely, etc.

Again, go and read those 40 "rules".

I carried them around with me for months, I even laminated them. Literally.


I am not asking these questions for "answers", but more for guidance. I do not want to make mistakes, especially the anxiety prone decisions and reactions based on my emotions.

The 40 Newbie Guidelines will help a lot with this. Mainly remember to do this:

Figure out your goal(s) and then

ACT in accordance with YOUR GOALS, NOT YOUR EMOTIONS.

When a dilemma presents itself and you have more than one option, ask yourself this about each option:

"Will this get me closer to a reconciliation, or farther?

IS this act or remark, coming from a healthy or loving place in my heart,

OR a wounded ego, or an angry spiteful part of me?

I often had the urge to "teach" my h a lesson and I used the euphemisms of "fairness/justice!!" to mask what really was my desire to lash out. My ego was badly bruised and I was hurting. Plus I can be very self righteous.

Thing is, I rationalize well. So I really had convinced myself that I was "only being honest/FAIR" - when in reality, usually I was hoping to "Slap" his face and "Wake him up" and to make him pay for leaving me or for not choosing us over a beloved JOB.

And I was WRONG to do that. I'm a much more honest person now, and a more loving (and loved) woman as a result of this ordeal. MY DB coach was a Godsend to me, truly. She mentioned, often, giving my husband something to miss, to BECOME A WOMAN ONLY A FOOL WOULD LEAVE...

(And that is an upside to this "ordeal". I am better for it and you can be too. So no matter what happens to this marriage you will be much better able to be in a healthy loving relationship in the future, hopefully with your wife, but regardless, you'll be in a stronger R).

I think I can recognize it when someone else is using euphemisms to mask their wounded ego. Your pride has been hurt. I get that. But don't let that blind you to what yo have put your wife through.

You touched (VERY briefly) on how you mistreated her in the first years of your marriage, though again, you were vague. I am also not sure when that changed or why OR how (or whether it really did improve, or you are just thinning it did).

But if you don't want to be that guy again, then let's get to work on you.

You need to Get A Life.

Why don't you want to have friends? Do you see anything unhealthy (or unloving or UNfun or interestING) about that, now?

Billman, People who have no friends, TEND to be uninteresting and self centered.

I am not saying you are. I am saying you need to think about that...and

be brave so you can DIG DEEP. These are not easy issues Billman. I know that.

But change takes time and effort. Do Keep on keeping on...

[billman12]

the family home thing was about the OM being in our room in our bed. But after your response, If i forgave her then the room means nothing.

when i meant slap in the face I meant a wake up call to what she is loosing, or throwing away. Not a your an idiot slap.

you wrote:
Don't gloss over that, again. You omit important facts but it does not help you; it slows down your increasing your awareness and progress. I'd avoid doing that if I were you).

I would like to mention that i have never expresses things well, and have always been told i embelish or "say too much". I want you to understand that I would love for my marriage to work and be saved. When I reply I am just giving answers, please do not presume that my answer is a direct reflection of my thought.

I have Always had a hard time with semantics, and wording things is sometimes difficult.

I remember a day when my wife asked me if i liked the Superman movie with Brandon Routh - i spent 15 minutes explaining what I did and did not enjoy with the movie. She listened with a smile and replied, "so, you liked it".

I am not always sure whether to elaborate or just condense. and again. I am asking the questions for a reply and for confirmation of my own opinion - and especially for me to make a proper decision and not an emotionally justified moment or irrational thought.

[25yearsmlc]

There are 2 other "pieces" to this, I think you should have in your "arsenal." One piece is GAL (and the other piece will follow later.)

This is In addition to becoming THE INVOLVED father your kids would no doubt love you to be, (even if they act weird about it at first.) Aside from your wife noticing, b/c she will and that will come from the kids, not you, it will make you feel better and will reassure your kids that you have no intention of dropping out of their lives. To me, a lot of your behavior sounds depressive. But I'm not a shrink. Maybe you can discuss that with your counselor.

Below is what I did to Get A Life and where I was, it wasn't easy. But it made an even bigger difference in almost every aspect of my life, than I hoped.

Think of things you "always to do" or "used to" want to do but..." and DO THEM.
Hobbies, places, classes, etc.

For GAL suggestions, here is some of what I did when we lived in the interior of Alaska, including in the winter.

I had 3 kids then, including a baby & toddler (so I don't want to hear about how you are 'too busy' to GAL).

Most of these activities involved meeting other people. To me, that is key to NOT obsessing about your spouse (or in my case, my h.)

You need to get your mind OFF your wife and OM. Some of these are "quieter" actiities if you strongly prefer. But you need to get out of your rut and spark things up and you must meet SOME NEW people or you won't get the stimulation and interest that you need, to stop the obsessing and to get your mind on something useful and NEW and NOT your wife.

A few months after back surgery I was in a show. At a rehearsal I suddenly realized that 3 hours had passed without me noticing my back pain, though I'd been standing for most of that time.

I was pretty surprised. So I REALLY processed that and took it in, thinking "mind over matter" can work! So later on when I was in the midst of this nightmare, I did some theater again.

Sure enough, there's nothing like an live audience to get your mind to focus and zero in on your lines and NOT obsess about a person you have no control over who isn't even there...

I'm just letting you know that whatever thing you can imagine totally occupying your mind for a few hours at a time, (a game of chess does it for some), DO MORE OF that thing.

Inertia is the greatest enemy to GAL. Overcome that, & you'll be well on your way to a happier more fulfilling life. IMO, the more you overcome inertia, the better your R's will be with all people, including your w.

I volunteered at a battered women's shelter.

I coached a girl's softball team for two summers (my older D was on it).
I was on the board of directors for Wrestling, ( our son wrestled).

I auditioned for community theater and met some fun creative people. I got cast, too.

I did stand up comedy (and yes, I still do it). I did a whole set once on a MLCs at the Hollywood Improv. It went very well.

I learned to cross country ski, became a better shooter.

I Learned to hunt big game, to deep sea fish, & I got better at downhill skiing.

I learned to use a snowmobile ("snow machine" to Alaskans)
I loved riding.

Learned to fly a plane, and I got a pilot's license.

Went skydiving! I loved it so much I did it again. I plan on doing it again, soon. I've taken 2 of my 3 kids as well. LATER on, my h and I did it for my birthday, together...

Edited a book. (The book ended up on the Best Seller's List. Who knew?)

I Worked out 3-4 times a week, and I really did get in excellent shape. Looking good made a world of difference to me. Found a work out partner and began socializing after the work outs.

(Plus I'd just had our last child and needed to lose the baby weight. It was not easy to do, let alone in the dark, deathly of their long LONG cold winters).

In the winter, I used a tanning booth, which helped me a lot with depression. I felt more energized, and it probably helped my appearance, which also helps us FEEL better.

Saw a therapist and for some months, & I went on ADs.

Took a pottery class (very odd for me to do, but I liked it a lot).

Joined the Officer's Wives club after 15 years of active duty.

(Wish I had joined sooner! Met two women who are life long friends to this day.)

Joined a writer's group
Took a class in Conversational French Class,

Took a class in Italian cooking - delicious!

There is more, but I just wanted to suggest to you a few things you can do that do not cost a lot.

Other than pilot training, most of these ^^ activities were free, or quite cheap.

[25yearsmlc]

Last but not least, is this final piece.

It's about marriage and the expectations/hopes men & women have of each other today. You said your wife did not drive and you implied that you had something to do with that choice. Maybe you did not want her to drive and told yourself it was for safety reasons, or whatever.

But if you are from a western culture (I can't tell if you are by the nature of the posts so far), you really ought to at least consider this perspective.

My "caveman theory" & comments are based on a survey that revealed the 2 things mates most valued in their spouses. (My apologies for any typos or odd sentences/clauses, but it's really late and I have to get up early in the morning.)

What Men valued most in their wives was, first, their "attraction" to their wives. Perhaps this is a "trophy value" factor, and sexual attraction is just what the anthropologists said it is, plus it may mean a superior mate for children too.

The second most valued trait in wives was "peace at home" which was interpreted as, more or less "no nagging". The experts said men want to be admired in their marriages. I definitely believe that. (Then again, who doesn't want that?)

What Women most valued in their h's, 1) Security; (financial, physical & emotional).

This is interpreted to mean We want to feel protected, and a man who is a good provider is also very attractive to us. That's especially so when there are children.
(I personally know some women who stay married solely because their husbands are "good providers and or "Good fathers", so yes, those are important traits to us).
Women want to know that there will be a roof over our baby's head and food on the table, AND that our h's are not gambling away the money, or spending it on OWs or getting lost in the woods...

We need to know that our men take care of their bodies -(in part to keep US safe, in part to be healthy and live long, and to look good for us!!!)

We need to know that our man will stop a bad guy from hurting us, which also helps us feel secure and protected.

Secondly, women most valued "Fidelity" - and that seems self explanatory. I think it has been in the back of your wife's mmd for a long time.

I asked before but don't recall getting an answer, but is the child part of your life at all? Have you met him/her, and or have your kids?

Now, on the security level, you have to wonder how safe your wife felt with you.

You were "inert"? You say you were inattentive and inactive with her and the kids, so I think she did not feel safe with you, in terms of what would happen to the kids if she wasn't around AND whether you would really "Show up" for her.

There are a lot of ways women can feel unprotected by their mates.

Like not standing up for her with your family would be a huge one, or being bad with money, (not that you are, just a comment.
Or, bad mouthing her to others, or involving your family in private matters,

and certainly blaming your wife for any of your choices feels disloyal and unproductive.

And not being able to provide for the home and family is another big way for a woman to feel unsafe and unprotected by her mate.

My "caveman" theory is that at some level we feel, down deep maybe at a biological level, when the man goes out of the cave - the woman stays behind with the baby, (the baby that is unquestionably the man's child)

and the man expects that baby to be cared for while he's gone,

and the fires should still be going, kindling gathered, and

the Woman expects the man to bring back some meat or at least berries, and he needs to come back on time, or she'll worry, and if the saber toothed tiger comes back, the woman protects the child and backs up her h, but HE fights the tiger if he is there. He Helps her feel safe and provided for, with the children...


I think women DO want to be protected, and when there are kids, provided for - and men Do want to be admired and seen as having an attractive mate, preferably one who is attracted to him, or at least warm & affectionate even if she has low sex drive.

When a man loses a job, we all know it can often cut him to the core. But we may skim over how insecure it makes the wives feel, especially if they are depending on their mate to "bring home the meat", & especially if they have children. I think at least part of this is biological, even these days.

I'm a professional with very good income potential, but I admit I take pride & comfort in my h's work & income. I very much value knowing I can stay at home with our children if we need to, and that he will have it all covered.

Last year our youngest had some serious medical issues that required a lot of time at home and I thank God (and my h) that I was able to take all that time off for her.

If I HAD to work when our child needed me at home b/c my h did not earn enough, at some level I probably would have felt disappointed or sad.

So when you lost those jobs, and damaged your credit, I would not dismiss her belief system and values quite so fast by calling her "materialistic",.

I think her fears about money are probably very real and deep.

Learning to see her point of view is about having empathy. No marriage or friendship is deep and good, without empathy.

I would like to hear more of that from you, about your wife. Know what I mean?

There is hope!

[billman12]

Last but not least, is this final piece.

I asked before but don't recall getting an answer, but is the child part of your life at all? Have you met him/her, and or have your kids?

No the child is not a part of my life. and the OW has said she does not want me to b. I do however pay support.

Now, on the security level, you have to wonder how safe your wife felt with you.

You were "inert"? You say you were inattentive and inactive with her and the kids, so I think she did not feel safe with you, in terms of what would happen to the kids if she wasn't around AND whether you would really "Show up" for her.

I believe I was always available. I was I think overprotective of the children, to the point that I stunted their ability to have fun in an attempt to keep them safe i.e. could not be barefoot in the yard, afraid they would hurt their feet. I did not cook meals and always made easy food - sandwiches, mac & cheese, lunchables, simple things.

There are a lot of ways women can feel unprotected by their mates.

Like not standing up for her with your family would be a huge one, or being bad with money, (not that you are, just a comment.
Or, bad mouthing her to others, or involving your family in private matters,

I always defended her, I never bad mouthed her to my family.


And not being able to provide for the home and family is another big way for a woman to feel unsafe and unprotected by her mate.

I was not a good provider, i see that now more than ever. My only defense is that the mortgage at least, was always top priority, whilst the other bills suffered.

He Helps her feel safe and provided for, with the children...


I did fail at this in the grand scheme.

I think her fears about money are probably very real and deep.

I see that now.

I would like to hear more of that from you, about your wife. Know what I mean?

Anything I can answer I will.

There is hope!

[Mozza]

Wow, billman12, I hope you measure your chance for getting such feedback and guidance. Even I find it useful to read. Hope you'll use it!

[billman12]

Wow, billman12, I hope you measure your chance for getting such feedback and guidance. Even I find it useful to read. Hope you'll use it!

i don't understand what you mean by this response. wait, do you mean that what is being said to me is excellent advice? I agree if that is what you meant. and I am reading it over and over to make sure I get it through.

[billman12]

I would also like some guidance on how to behave, respond, and talk to her when the times arise. What am I trying to convey to her in terms of what is happening, i mean if she asked me "how are you", i think i should say more than fine or good, but I believe that I should not over elaborate. what is the message I am trying to "convey" to her whether spoken or unspoken?

[Mozza]

i don't understand what you mean by this response. wait, do you mean that what is being said to me is excellent advice?

Yes, that's what I meant.

[25yearsmlc]

I would also like some guidance on how to behave, respond, and talk to her when the times arise. What am I trying to convey to her in terms of what is happening, i mean if she asked me "how are you", i think i should say more than fine or good, but I believe that I should not over elaborate. what is the message I am trying to "convey" to her whether spoken or unspoken?

The response IF SHE ASKS you about the marriage, is something like this:

"If I had it all to do over again, there are a lot of things I'd do differently."

^^^ This shows your willingness to change, but it does not make you a doormat. It also does not escalate the discussion.

For your general "attitude", you can say "I'm struggling with things but I know in the end, it'll all work out."

AND OR, "I'm doing alright, given the circumstances."

Essentially, you want her to see that YOU have had an awakening, which means that you know your life will improve b/c you are working on it & making changes.

Understand?

.

[25yearsmlc]

whatever you do, do NOT act as if you are a victim. (But I know your concern is you don't want to seem "too happy" b/c you think she will believe you are "just fine" with a divorce.)

But there is no way she'd really believe that. She won't believe you have done a total 180 and suddenly "don't care" about the marriage. IF you begin to wonder about it, it's b/c you are trying to convince yourself to pursue her and that's NOT called for at this time.

Back off - like she asked. Plus you have to show that you are not irrational or unstable. NO OFFENSE MEANT by that, but when a protective order is issued on you, it's something you need to deal with.

Okay?

[billman12]

Understand?

I believe so. I need to make these changes happen and she will see the on their own and/or through the kids. But I am making these changes for myself because they need to changed for me to be a better person with or without her.

If she brings up anything in regard to how I am or feel, or what is going on, do not be mean or rude, but vague, with a subtly of I would like things to be better, but respect her decision - no matter how much it hurts.

How does that sound?

[25yearsmlc]

Understand?

I believe so. I need to make these changes happen and she will see the on their own and/or through the kids. But I am making these changes for myself because they need to changed for me to be a better person with or without her.

If she brings up anything in regard to how I am or feel, or what is going on, do not be mean or rude, but vague, with a subtly of I would like things to be better, but respect her decision - no matter how much it hurts.

How does that sound?

Mostly great.

I think the part about "no matter how much it hurts" makes it sound as if you feel sorry for yourself, or see yourself as doing something sacrificial & noble.

But in reality

1) you have no choice but to accept her wishes. For one thing, there is a protective order in place, so you can't really "Fight" this. Moreover, Spouses no longer "give" a spouse a divorce (like the old days). Today, states grant divorces.

So the only only real option you have, is HOW you will go about doing it;

and besides, you now realize (b/c of the "awakening" you have had) that

2) you got yourself here by mistreating her, and or being clueless about control issues, anger mismanagement and an anxiety disorder.
The anxiety disorder probably manifested in yet more control issues, while the frustrations & anger probably showed up as more anger and or criticism.

SO INSTEAD,

I'd be more of a "wish I had treated you better b/c NOW I GET IT! NOW, and from this day forward, I'd be the husband you deserve and always wanted."

"And w, the thing is, I'm becoming that MAN now! And I'm the father of our children...SOooooo....."

[what you hope she realizes - is what you are really saying, which is....}

"So who better than I, should help you raise OUR children? And since I am now the man you always wanted me to be, why not make it work -- with ME?"

Billman, understand that Her fears now, are probably that if she takes you back again, you will do what you did in the past, and revert to your old ways. She can't do that again.

OR do what you did in the past, just not fixing things at all, to merely fake it well til she agrees.

Then you'll be your old self again, controlling her, micro managing, NEEDING, having no friends or hobbies and abdicating the parenting to her, OR micromanaging it. Remember

Your consistent changes, + sufficient TIME = changes she can believe in.


When all this^^^ happens, which does take TIME & consistent effort from you, the rest can fall in place.

Such as what she'll give up or modify to reassure you, and ways you both will keep tabs on how the marriage is going, etc.

On another note, here's a comment about GAL, I am paraphrasing.

"When someone says they can't GAL, b/c their other obligations hinder it, or whatever their reasons are, here is what they don't realize. They don't see how little they bring to the table for their WalkAway spouse.

Having zero interests outside the family & work, makes someone NOT a very interesting person. Whereas GAL means you are interestED in the world around you, and interestING to others.

People who won't GAL, are spectators in Life, not participants. Chances are a WAS wants a participant, and already regrets/resents what they've missed out on life."

Food for thought, yes?

So in short Billman, you need to Become a Man Only a Fool Would Leave...


Okay?

[Zues126]

First I want to pipe in about guys wanting their W to be a good mother. I think it's important, but it can cut both ways if guys feel like the kids are more important (or all important).

As for this sitch, trust 25, but be careful to read her words carefully about interacting with your W. remember, if it sounds like you are telling your W you've changed to get what YOU want it is controlling and pursuing. If you let her see that you've changed naturally it is better. Personally I let her see that I had realized the error of my ways, but didn't talk too much about my changes. She commented about those on her own not much later.

really get the point that this is ABOUT YOU, FOR YOU. In a perverse way you have no shot at a good relationship with you W until you can live without her. Sorry, there is no chance you can avoid the entire grieving process if you play your cards right. That's the 'bargaining' phase of acceptance. That's why it's so important to focus on you. The more you focus on you the better you'll feel. The more you focus on her the worse you'll feel.

Last point (i was going to post on my thread but maybe it's better here) is GAL. I had other critical 180s, and personally I thought GAL was overrated because I did a lot on my own before BD. But I've learned GAL is about something more important and relevant to your sitch- it is about you meetin your own needs. 25 said this, and it is so right. The more you meet your own needs the more you can do all of this: focus on you, let go of her, demonstrate change, and be a confident man she can admire. I'm assuming you have some fears/discomforts about having friends as that is unusual. Maybe start with a councelors to get help for that. Or another approach is to start in an area you are comfortable (if you are great at chess join a chess club so you have something in common and have a reason to feel confident).

Lots of advice, probably overwhelming. But make sure to follow sandis and 25's rules when you're interacting with W, and for when you're on your own take small daily steps. This isn't about your W anymore. It's a path you'll be on for you for the rest of our life. Welcome aboard, good luck, and may you find comfort soon.

[Maybell]

Zues, that was awesome.

Hope you're doing well.

[Mozza]

The advice from 25yearsmlc and Zues126 is awesome. I read it as if it were directed to me. Thanks a lot to both of you for taking the time to share.

[Zues126]

Maybel, Mozza, thank you for the compliment. I guess words of affirmation are a LL if mine because it warmed me to know that something I said could be valuable, particularly when I'm still early on my journey and getting advice from 25 myself. I don't know if that's me being codependent and needy or simply meeting my own needs .

What I can say is this is a great community. It's great to get to know other people's situations, watch them grow, see good things happen. Lets all say a few prayers for bill tonight and welcome him to the family!

[billman12]

I agree that all this is overwhelming, and a tad bit of "wow, i really have neglected myself in an unsettling manner".

The more you focus on you the better you'll feel. The more you focus on her the worse you'll feel.

I had a moment there when I did not actually put that perspective on it. Those words right there hit the spot.

It is hard to not have a moment where I miss her, and wish I could still hug her. But I am a bit angry and saddened by everything and Imagine myself walking away from her without turning back. Then I remember, that is not what I want - if I can take a chance at happiness with her as opposed to without her.

One issue I have been having and working on; If i had to make a list of pro's to making this marriage work, I could write a list all day. But I think my key here is to work on a list of what I would do/want for me on the possibility that I don't stand a chance or reconciliation. At this moment, that list is small. I am working on that list - Finding a goal in life that does not involve her was never a consideration before, but now it must be.

I cannot let my fear of losing this marriage control my day to day. I must have a confidence that if I believe that I am that man that she deserves, then that is who I should be; but because that is the man I want to be and should have been - with or without her. A new perspective. A new beginning.

Thank you everyone, please keep it coming, and I will do the same. It's always nice to have new family.

[Zues126]

Bill- goto my thread (just bumped it) and go back a few pages, check out the goodbye/hello excersize I did and the posts surrounding it. First off, it's proof I'm far from perfect . But really, it's a great step that is righ down the alley you're talking about. Good stuff. Best part is- you're doin it for just YOU! Go Bill!!!

[billman12]

Zues126, i read that post:

I'm losing my W, my kids growing up with both parents together, the chance to be married forever to the mother of my children, a lot of faith in love and commitment, my house, part of my income, and a chapter of my life that meant a lot.

I cried a little. because these are things I also would write. I like the Idea. Tomorrow I will write a list and make a reply.

Thank you.

P.S.
Good stuff. Best part is- you're doin it for just YOU! Go Bill!!!

I cried a little again. I feel a bit pansy (all the tears). But I am growing and learning. Nothing is better than moving forward in the right direction.

[lostluv]

good advice here in this thread. I too am reading it as it is directed at me (im pretty sure it already has been but phrased a little different haha).

I absolutely agree that it is VERY hard...i'm struggling myself. As a matter of fact, i don't post in many threads because I feel I'm not really ready to GIVE advice since I'm struggling so badly myself. However, zues and 25 are giving some good points .

and to add to the "meet your own needs", I'm realizing that may be where I started going wrong to begin with as well. I'm reading NMMNG and that is the part that hit me the most. when I meet my wife, i was confident, had friends, did my own thing and shared it with my wife. over the 4 years of our marriage, I neglected my needs thinking that my family and home were more important than what I needed. I realize now that actually built resentment and possibly some anger that I unintentionally took out on my wife indirectly.

I'm struggling with the GAL because I feel obligated to home but am really trying.

oh, don't worry about feeling like a pansy and crying! it's normal. if it didn't bother you or make you feel hurt that would mean there is something wrong with you. I spent the first two months breaking down in tears every day...sometimes several times in a day. Luckily, i'm starting to dry up and have managed to only cry once or twice a week and I try to do it when no one is around .

good luck and work on the detaching < - - that sounds so hypocritical coming from me because it's my biggest struggle

[25yearsmlc]

First I want to pipe in about guys wanting their W to be a good mother. I think it's important, but it can cut both ways if guys feel like the kids are more important (or all important).

FTR, I only spoke to how we women feel about the fathers of our children (and maybe how we'd feel about step dads if applicable) but I said nothing about how men feel towards their women for mothering EXCEPT in response to someone. I have 5 brothers and a h and an adult son. All of THEM say it's "damn important" and in a moment of candor my h said that if was dating an OW and she wasn't "great with our kids, she'd be out the door."

My brothers seem to feel the same; and in at least 2 cases my brothers wanted to marry women who were good with their kids and that was THE priority as far as I could tell. Right nor wrong, that's how I saw them.

But it's hardly a random sample.

As for this sitch, trust 25, but be careful to read her words carefully about interacting with your W. remember, if it sounds like you are telling your W you've changed to get what YOU want it is controlling and pursuing. If you let her see that you've changed naturally it is better.

Gosh I hope this^^ is obvious. I stated more than once, NOT to ever discuss the changes, but to demonstrate them (in so many words)

(except to say that, "if you could do things all over again, there are lots of things you'd do differently",

--which I explained, & which is Not = to telling your w that you are "all better now, come home.") .

I hope you'll notice the same words in DB. I did not make them up, although I happen to strongly agree with them.

Especially with your history of separating and then not changing - but reconciling anyhow---yeah, you must walk the walk. NO talking the talk...okay?


Personally I let her see that I had realized the error of my ways, but didn't talk too much about my changes. She commented about those on her own not much later.

really get the point that this is ABOUT YOU, FOR YOU. In a perverse way you have no shot at a good relationship with you W until you can live without her.

this^^ is weirdly true.
You can't NEED her the way you seem to, to get her back long term.

Like her being your SOLE friend -- that is just way too much work to expect of one person.

It's like you are telling her "Hi, you are my mate, my co-parent and my bff and my lover, and my wife and a daughter in law to my parents, and my confidante-

and I don't have enough energy or time or knowhow to help enough with the kids so that is on you, too, but hey, "WE" have a lot of things to talk about

b/c my needs are still not all completely being met by all by You. So when can I tell you where you are failing?"

[color:#3333FF]You must make some friends. You have to see the value in others (as I wrote that line, it hit me that maybe you really do Not like most people, and therefore...what? YOU don't have to be like the rest of us and "get along"? I think you have to do just that).
[/color]
Sorry, there is no chance you can avoid the entire grieving process if you play your cards right. That's the 'bargaining' phase of acceptance. That's why it's so important to focus on you. The more you focus on you the better you'll feel. The more you focus on her the worse you'll feel.

Last point (i was going to post on my thread but maybe it's better here) is GAL. I had other critical 180s, and personally I thought GAL was overrated because I did a lot on my own before BD.

But I've learned GAL is about something more important and relevant to your sitch- it is about you meetin your own needs. 25 said this, and it is so right. The more you meet your own needs the more you can do all of this: focus on you, let go of her, demonstrate change, and be a confident man she can admire. I'm assuming you have some fears/discomforts about having friends as that is unusual. Maybe start with a councelors to get help for that. Or another approach is to start in an area you are comfortable (if you are great at chess join a chess club so you have something in common and have a reason to feel confident).

Lots of advice, probably overwhelming. But make sure to follow sandis and 25's rules when you're interacting with W, and for when you're on your own take small daily steps. This isn't about your W anymore. It's a path you'll be on for you for the rest of our life. Welcome aboard, good luck, and may you find comfort soon.

AMEN!!! ^^^

[billman12]

I'd like some input on my thoughts:

At one point I told myself that the biggest mistake I could make would be enabling her to spend time with the OM. For instance. If she calls me up and asks me to spend some time with the kids so that she could "go out", I felt I should say no if it meant to spend time with him.

Than I started thinking. The errors of this in my opinion: I am rejecting her decision by trying to keep them apart - my fighting against what she "wants". She will see that as me denying time with the kids and controlling her decisions, the kids as a tool. She's going to find a way anyway, and more fuel on the fire to affirm her decision to leave.

I have considered that the best option, is to spend as much time with the kids - period. Regardless of what she is doing - because they are my children and I want to be the best father I can. And this will come with perks (for added benefit, not for purpose).

Perks: knowing my prior inattentiveness with them, while on her "date" she will spend more time wondering how they are than enjoying the date. She may talk more about the children (and/or) me when with him - which he would not like. The kids will express what a fun time they had with daddy, and she will become jealous - I say this because her "addiction" to the OM has her spending less time with the kids (as I heard from her brother).

Again I am not using the kids, I seriously miss them and want to be better with them - regardless of what she is doing/thinking. I just believe that it has an air of reverse psychology to it. She will see my wanting to spend time with the kids and my seemingly "okay" attitude toward her being with the OM as confusing. She predicts my behavior to "fix us", to "stop" her seeing the OM, and this should confuse her or allow her to believe that I am accepting this situation.

Regardless of the outcome, I am going to spend all the time I can with them. But it is a good motivator to believe it should have a positive impact for us in time. And that it might "stress" their time together.

[Mozza]

I'm curious what advice you'll get from the vets. To me, it seems you shouldn't think of it in ways of controlling her. With our WAW, we set boundaries, but we don't make choices in order to ruin their relationships or the fun they're having without us. We'll be part of the problem again. If you really want to spend time with your kids, you should go for it. You'll have a better time. Ask yourself: would I spend this time with the kids if we were back together? If the answer is yes, you're making real change in the right direction. You're becoming the involved dad that she's looking for. Again, let's see what the vets have to say.

[billman12]

Yes, your response tells me I may have still came of like I was doing this as a ruse or that my intention was reverse psychology. I did not intend that. You said "Ask yourself: would I spend this time with the kids if we were back together?" and the answer would be yes. This needs to be done, for the sake of my being a father, and to make up for my lack of attention to them in the past. I think I was looking for an agreement that the "side effects" were in good possibility as a result of doing the right thing.

[Zues126]

You're coming a long ways very quickly. Keep going! It's a long road but impossible if you don't start!

[Mozza]

I had a slightly similar situation: my W needed to work (from home) on a holiday and asked if I could babysit the kids. I hesitated a lot because I would have been pleased to see the kids, but I didn't want to save her from her decision to go at it alone. In the end, I told her I needed to work too (true) and I let her hire a babysitter who brought the kids to my apartment. I worked from home part of the day, then at the office, and saw them for lunch and dinner, while she paid a babysitter (and worked unpaid!). I looked flexible, but not a doormat. I might need her too one day.

[billman12]

The idea of very quickly scares me a bit. I do not want to think that I would "understand" too much to fast and miss the finer points. But I have had the precious Bomb situation opened my eyes a lot, it just did not stick well.

I know in my brain what it is I need to do, and I have a fight going on with my heart. My heart wants to love her unconditionally, and my brain affirms that the unconditional also means without her.

I have a heart of magic i think, and sometimes I feel I owe her my life for having "dealt" with me for so long. But I realize i owe her something a bit different, and that is the respect and admiration that is the woman I loved. I neglected that. I pray that some day she comes to understand that regardless of what happens. But my heart still wants her in my life, albeit a bit selfish to only want her as my wife.

I know what I must do. I need reassurance and guidance to move on the right path. And the road to forgiveness, although a difficult one, must be met both ways and treadled confidently and carefully.

I have confidence in my ability to be the man I know I am. I will be that man, for myself. And I dream that she wants that man and will choose to love me because she wants to, not because she needs to.

[billman12]

I looked flexible, but not a doormat. I might need her too one day.

I agree with this. I have come to learn that I need to be available with a limit. This will be perceived by her that the situation is not as optimal as it would be if we were together.

Again, I am not reflecting that as intent, merely as a hopeful observation of what could come of limited availability.

[billman12]

Just curious, what will be going through my wife's mind during the time that the affair begins to end. How will she know and how will she behave. What starts that process where she begins to realize what is happening. From what I have been reading people in the midst of an affair are illogical, addicted, and complete liars; what is the "bomb" for them?

[25yearsmlc]

Put the focus on YOU and ONLY YOU.

This (below) is an utter waste of time. Worse, it deflects from the real work you have to do, on yourself. Stop that.

I marked the parts of this that you have NO control over and which should not be on your radar at this stage...

Just curious, what will be going through my wife's mind during the time that the affair begins to end. How will she know and how will she behave. What starts that process where she begins to realize what is happening. From what I have been reading people in the midst of an affair are illogical, addicted, and complete liars; what is the "bomb" for them?

Who lied to whom? Why are you SO eager to fault her?

Why aren't you wondering how the heck YOU could have treated her so badly for so long?

Let me put it this way...is there ANY reason for me to post to you anymore?

[billman12]

Why aren't you wondering how the heck YOU could have treated her so badly for so long?

I am, but there is a part of me wondering what it was that i did That badly. I mean the punishment fitting the crime. I fully understand that the affair happened due to my faults, but with all do respect she gave up - when does that become a fault. If an affair is betrayal, then there must be fault on her part.

If I am missing the point I apologize, and I am working on me, this was more of a side curiousness. I will abandon it if that is what is required.

That's the other point, I may have neglected the things I should have done and my responsibilities, but I did not treat her badly, incorrectly perhaps, but not badly.

[25yearsmlc]

Billman,

A DB man (a "left Behind Husband) came here & posted about how he knew he'd been a lousy h. But when his wife found OM, he got his act together and finally made the changes SHE had hoped and waited for, but he had NOT done for years.

HE could not understand why his wife had not yet returned to him, since he'd "done the work".

Then another DB woman here, (a different "WAW") wrote to him.

Why don't you see if YOUR wife could have written the letter below.


then maybe you'll stop wondering what she is doing with HER life, or how YOU can try to control her again...and instead, you will stay in your sandbox working on your life, and staying out of her sandbox. And don't play judge or mindreader with her. I don't think you are very good at it and I KNOW it's not fair to her.

Perhaps more importantly, it's also NOT helpful to your situation.

Dig deep and do your work.


FROM A WAW TO A LBS HUSBAND WHO HAS CHANGED AND WONDERS WHY HIS WAW HAS NOT COME HOME YET AND HOW SHE CAN BE AT ALL INTERESTED IN OM….

"When I read your interactions with your wife, I could so easily identify with your wife's feelings/words/sentiments. I have been in her position in my M. I was the ignored, the devalued, the one who was treated as less than. Of course, my H went a step further and cheated, then left, adding an extra crunchy layer of goodness to my sitch.

One of the things that I have tried my hardest not to do, is not to engage with another man. Not just because of my marriage vows, but because I knew that when I truly engaged in any type of R with another man, it would make it that much harder to ever reconcile with my H.

Because being treated differently (better) than the way he treated me would lessen him so much in my eyes. So, I can see where your W is coming from. When you've been mistreated to the point where you actually let go of your R enough to let another person into your heart or bed or whatever, it takes a boatload of work to get back on a page where you're recommitted to being with your S - and those uncertainties that she's expressed to you, I don't know if you truly, truly fathom how deep they run.

Six months of getting back on a page where you treat her the way that any wife should be treated does not even scratch the surface of the years, the intrinsic devaluing that occurs when you're systematically mistreated for such a stretch of time.

And I promise you that while you have recommitted and worked for 6 months, your W has simply been trying to get to a point where she can even buy into the changes, where she can even think that you might have changed and not scoff at the thought.

Because when you build up hope again and again and again in your H and he crushes it again and again and again, you develop a thick skin, a protective doubt, a conditioned response to even the slightest, grainiest seed of hope.

You are taught that when you hope, you will be disappointed. When you try, you will fail. You are taught that you will never be what he wants and it is hard to shake what you have come to believe is reality.



And for the changes that you've made to have come only when she walked away and OM became competition, I can definitely see how she can doubly doubt that you truly want to be in a M with her, and not just to "WIN".

Even you today say that you are not sure that you don't just want to "win".

Step 1 - figure that sh!t out ASAP. Because if you actually do manage to convince her that you really do want her and really have recommitted to her and you actually just want to "win", you'll put her through hell.
_________________________
Me: 32, H: 32
M: 12 years T: 13 years
No kids
D-Day: 7/2009
Separated: 10/12/10
Future Unknown

[billman12]

I understand. i have a lot to think about.

[billman12]

I need to do more thinking. My question up to this point has been: "Why did she give up?" - I think it should be, "What things have I done that failed her as a husband?".

[Mozza]

25yearsmlc - Wow, how do you choose the threads in which you participate?

[billman12]

I wrote myself a letter.

10/22/2014

Here I find what I have done wrong. Through these years I have made my share of mistakes, over and over. They are a burden on me now that I realize the truest of my bad nature.

I have never been a good father. I would not say that I am a bad father, but I did not live or even strive for a potential of good. I have dreams of playing with my children, and fantasies of seeing them smile and loving them with every breath. But I never provided any action to make this happen. I was always too busy doing something, or nothing, else to spend time with them. I was inattentive and unavailable to their needs. I was a distant father.

For the longest time I admitted to myself that I treated my wife like a queen, serviced her every whim, and did all I could to make her happy. I never took note, that all I did was show love; but in all the wrong ways. I did not live up to the ability that was my wife’s expectations. Yes they were high, but I did not even reach for them. I abandoned my own duties and justified myself in why I did nothing. It is not so much that I was lazy, but when I was needed, or was asked, I denied, after saying yes. I let her down time and time again, with an agreement that I broke. Yes I did indeed forget, but I only forgot because I did not hold what she wanted from me with any importance. To her that meant I did not care about her wants and needs. I did not do everything for her as I originally thought. I abandoned her. I was lazy.

I did not want to work; I always told myself that it was because I wanted to be home with my family, to be with them and around them. Yet all the while I was not working, I watched TV, or slept on the couch. I did not take the kids outside to play, and when I did I sat there bored with nothing to do, instead of playing with them. I neglected making money, so that I could be lazy and bored. Then I complained about being bored and broke, when I am the one that placed me in that situation. I was a bad provider.

When it came to intimacy, I always wanted sex and never understood why she did not. I complained at her sex drive, and devalued the reasons she did not want intimacy. I forced myself on her, and did not take time to enjoy the moments; I did not provide the luxury of feeling love and tenderness that is the word intimacy. I was not romantic.

I followed her like a puppy, lost in my life. I had nothing to do for myself, no hobby or play. My every moment while she was around, I was glued to her hip and would not let her breath. I made it always bout spending time with her and being around her. I lost sight of the fact that she couldn’t breathe without my breathing her air. I did not respect her space.

I did not have confidence in my ability to be a good man. I always said you are an idiot for staying with me. I thought I was saying, thank you to her for staying with me even though I was not worth it. I never believed she’d leave me, and thought she’d love me forever – because she said she would. I did not earn her respect or her admiration. I somehow made it okay to do nothing, and expect everything in return. I took her for granted. I did not love myself. I did not earn her love. I did not deserve her.

I am not feeling pity, or remorse for my behavior. Instead I am recognizing my faults and learning how to correct them. I must do this for the sake of my own well being and health. For if I cannot overcome my faults as a person; I will never be a man, to her or anyone.

[billman12]

Ok so now that I have established to myself what it was that I have done wrongly, and what things about me need to improve. What is my next step?

[CMS]

Ok so now that I have established to myself what it was that I have done wrongly, and what things about me need to improve. What is my next step?

turn them into 180's and find the help needed to better yourself in these areas. Like anything else the first step is admitting and knowing the next step is the process of healing.

Great job and remember your not alone we all have things we are working on. we are all on a journey together even though each one may end up in a different place.

[billman12]

Ok and one question . the issues that involved her .. I obviously cannot work on those. So what is suggested on those.

[billman12]

I mean that I cannot demonstrate those changes really.

[Zues126]

Don't even worry about demonstrating changes. That's about her behavior. Make the changes for you. Personally there is such a desire to prove we're different it's hard not to show them off and seem pursuing and controlling. For that reason I almost try to minimize/hide my changes. That way I know I am doing hem for me. And if they are real, permanent, and consistent, it will come across in ways you'd never know about. That would be more convincing anyway than making a show of it.

[billman12]

I need a small amount of guidance please. We have not had word 1 at all since I went to jail last month. Neither of us has tried. On the 27th, we have court for the order of protection. I do not know if she will be there or not. Regarding our kids, should I contact her to see them, or do I still wait for her contact. I believe that waiting for her might make her think I do not "care" about seeing the children. But what she thinks right now does not matter, her world is upside down.

I just do not want to make mistakes, I have no idea what Halloween will bring either.

Also, I have had feelings of giving up. It seems that even though there is an order, i expected she might still have tried to contact me, even for the kids sake, but nothing. I do not want to give up. But after all this self reflection, I wonder if I have done too much damage. I understand that I need to pick myself up, but how do I have hope without giving up, and work through the moments when I feel hopeless?

[Zues126]

What would you do differently if you gave up?

Would you not try to grow as a person? Would you self medicate by jumping into a rebound relationship? Would you treat you STBX like crap to show her that you don't need her or care about her anymore?

I wouldn't. So what helps me is realizing that since I'm going to do what I feel is both right and best for me regardless of what STBX does, it makes NO DIFFERENCE if I have hope. In fact, the amount that hope is making a difference shows how insincere someone's changes or actions are. Do what's right, take care of yourself. Maybe she'll feel differently and maybe she won't. Stay focused on you.

As for contact, I'd strongly, strongly, strongly ask you consult a DB coach. This is a very vulnerable place for you to be. You are in a low trust situation about to be negotiating your future lives and family structure. To me it seems like a very strategic contact would be beneficial to resuce tension/anxiety prior to those negotiations, but how exactly to do that requires PROFESSIONAL assistance. Too much is at stake.

I'd think a hand written letter stating

-you realize you messed up (not lookin for forgiveness or another chance, just acknowledging you have had a chance to see this, not looking for anything in return such as goodwill back)
-that you wish her the best and she deserves to be happy
-that since you will be coparenting through the children's lives together you are committed to doing better in a coparenting role and want to prevent further drama.
-that while you know that wont change how she feels, it is what she and the children deserve.

Again, don't listen to me. I only am trying to show you how touchy and critical this is to handle perfectly. Call DB today.

[billman12]

what is required to get a DB Coach? Maybe i missed something?

[billman12]

http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/catalog/category/5705091

OMG I wish I could afford it. .

[Roberta]

Please call me to explain the coaching program. As your online community suggested, this is a critcal call for you to make.
303-444-7004

[Zues126]

Hey bill...I don't work for them but all I can say is you can't NOT afford it. Even if you just got three sessions to get through this super volitale situation with life changing consequences. Forget about reconsciliation and focus on just trying to avoid a adversarial court battle, loss of children, and huge payouts in cs and alimony, and a lifelong enemy that poisons the kids against you. Sorry to be so dramatic, but this is a realistic worst case scenario. And while you can't guarantee this doesn't happen, it's critical you do what you can to deescalated the situation. I think this should be done today. If you have to sell some possessions, borrow some money, or whatever, do it. Now's not the time to shoot from the hip and cross your fingers.

[billman12]

I'd think a hand written letter stating

-you realize you messed up (not lookin for forgiveness or another chance, just acknowledging you have had a chance to see this, not looking for anything in return such as goodwill back)
-that you wish her the best and she deserves to be happy
-that since you will be coparenting through the children's lives together you are committed to doing better in a coparenting role and want to prevent further drama.
-that while you know that wont change how she feels, it is what she and the children deserve.

Can anyone give me a thought as to whether this is a good idea or not? I'd be happy to post it after writing it for clearer confirmation. Also I plan to get at least one Coach session, but not able until next week at the minimum.

Any advice/help I can get would be awesome, I just do not want to make mistakes, and want to do this right. Thank you.

[gogofo]

Write the letter and get deep down into your feelings. Then DO NOT DO NOT DO NOT send it or share it with your wife, the only thing that would do is try to manipulate her. Right now your words do not mean sh!t and will not mean sh!t for a long long time. This is an endurance race, not a sprint.

The best way you can show her you want her to be happy is to leave her alone. She is a WAW because not being around you feels better than being with you.

I understand wanting to write a letter, I felt the same way last week when I was asked to leave again. I wrote the letter and sat on it and with good advice I did not send it. I felt better and I often write letters as a form of therapy to get the venom out of me.

Read the letter to the LBS posted above. If you want to know what your wife is feeling this is as close as you will ever get. Does she say anywhere in there that she just wanted to hear "I'm sorry"? The letter and the words are for you. They should help you get those feelings off your chest and allow you to move forward with actions. Pretend your wife is deaf, how would you show her that you are the kind of person only a fool would leave. Show yourself that you are worthy of being loved and believe in yourself and change for yourself. Anything else will be sniffed out as phony and only be temporary. Our spouses are not dumb, their BS meters are highly acute.

[gogofo]

25yearsmlc

This is by far the most inclusive and clear guidance I have read on this board. Your grasp of DBing is like you wrote the book. Your ability to dissect people and their intentions and buried feelings is amazing.

I have learned more about myself from your responses on this thread than I have in a while. Thank you for taking your personal time and helping guide the heart broken masses that collect here.

This thread and your responses should be required reading for anyone on this board.

Now to work on my co dependency issues and not relying on my wife to be more than my W. I think she felt pressured to be my everything because I let my relationships with my friends slip away and only had my work or my marriage, nothing else. I thought I was doing the best for my marriage and W and kids, but now have an insight into how it negatively affected our M.

[billman12]

gogofo Thank you. That meant so much, and made more sense they way you suggested how deaf she was. That context was perfect.

That still begs the question. How long do I wait for her to contact me about the kids. I spoke to a pastor and he said the kids are young, as long as it's not "months" they will be okay. I believe I should wait for her period.

[gogofo]

What is the hurry? I am not 100% up on all of the particulars of your situation but what do you need to figure out with the kids?

[billman12]

I have not seen them in a month and I miss them like crazy. I can wait, but I wasn't sure if I "should". for instance if i do call her - she will expect that she will likely predict my behavior to call her as soon as I get home from the court. I want to defy that prediction, but don't want her to think that I 'must not" love my kids if i am not diligently trying to see them. Then I remember, what she thinks and believes right now is all illogical anyway, so I feel I should ultimately wait for her to make the "first contact".

[MrBond]

Wait, you haven't seen them in a month? Why not?

[billman12]

As stated before, she got a protective order and then violated me. I was in jail 9 days, and the revised order was for No contact direct or indirect . so there was no way to arrange for seeing them. And she never offered or tried either. And she could have gone through several people for me to see them and she hasn't.

[gogofo]

Were you court ordered away from your children too when she filed the protection order? This may be a legal issue that you receive direction from the courts about.

If not, kids are separate from your situation with your wife. Kids take priority over what you and her are thinking and feeling, they should come first. I hope they are not going to be used as a weapon or bargaining chip.

Stop mind reading, you have no idea what she is thinking and that shouldn't be where your heart is when thinking about your kids.

If you are worried about her taking your visiting the kids as a way to interact with her. That is because you want it to be.

Whether you want to see your kids or not and when you want to is your decision. If or when you see them only make the conversation about when, where, etc. Say thank you and be pleasant. No other conversation about relationship, feelings, etc. Don't rub anything in her face, nothing. Be a dad and focus all your attention on your kids.

Contacting her about your kids does not count as pursuing and does not go against the rules 25 posted. Those rules apply to your interactions with your wife about your relationship.

I know it is scary and any mistake feels like the end. The book says you will make mistakes so learn from them and keep going.

You are reading the book, right?

[billman12]

I am reading the book, and no the order did not say no contact with children.

[billman12]

I wrote a letter to her as suggested. And I want to post it here, since I will NOT be giving it to her.

Letter of Truth 10/25/2014

I am sorry for who I have been. For the person I never continued to be. I am sorry for the person you became, as you changed from the person you were. I accepted that change and my love did not die. But that change strained everything we were and everything we were supposed to become. I am sorry for the father I forgot to be. I am sorry for the lover that I neglected to satisfy you with. I am sorry for the pain that my heartache causes you, and the pain my failures have endured you.
I gave you my heart, unconditionally, and never had a plan to take it away. You kept your heart from me for so long; I do not remember what it was like to have it. I find myself apologizing to you, to God, to our families for all my faults. Only to realize that many of the faults are yours as well, you have just never had time to think about them.
Some days I want to hate you. Some days I wish I never loved you. There are some days when I want to yell at you for making what I believe to be a horrible mistake. But we have been down this road before. There is a difference. I have come to realize so much over these past few months. And believe me there is an awakening that I never had before.
The main issues I have had to deal with are mostly obvious. I have always made it clear that as long as the papers are not signed, we are married. You have emotionally cheated on me many times, and now a physical affair. For the better part of a year you have been conversing with this person. Even back when I thought we were good together. Then I started figuring it out. The constant texting on the phone. The lack of interest in spending time with me at night, while you were “playing games” on your phone. The late nights at work while you had to wait for the manager to finish. The not coming home for lunch days. The fact that you did not want to go to work on your days off. When you started deleting your text messages, and claiming you did not like the clutter. All of these things happened before I STUPIDLY suggested we separate. I trusted you, and never ONCE thought you were doing anything with another man. You lied to my face for months. You backstabbed me and betrayed me in a way that I Never thought you would have.
You are now avoiding me at all costs. The children will suffer through this ordeal regardless of how you say they will be fine, or how well they are “adjusting”. You lied to me for so long, you are now lying to yourself. You had a man that would have loved you until the world stopped spinning. You had a man that would have laid his life down for you just to prove his love. Then you just gave up.
You posted a message on how you gained your maturity at 30. Getting a divorce, having an affair, removing the daddy from your child’s home, allowing our home to foreclose, planning a bankruptcy – this is not maturity, this is irrationality; delusion. And yet, you blame me, because my heart is broken and my emotions went downhill. And then I suffer more while you rave and pretend to be happy. You destroy me, and smile about your day as if you do not care. Perhaps you do not care, perhaps you do not love me, and perhaps you never did.
I have decided to accept your terms due to the fact that I have no choice or control. I feel like I do not want to love you. But I do, and more then you may Ever believe. And I probably will until my last breath on this earth. I love our children, yes I failed to show it, but that does not mean it was untrue. I will provide for them for the rest of my life, and they will come to understand the true love of a father – because after what you have done, they are ALL I have left. I am going to learn to bury my love for you, because I cannot live in this pain. This will take some time – perhaps before I can bury it, you will see what you are losing. Maybe then we may have a chance to make this marriage what it always should have been. A fairy tale.

[Zues126]

Thank you for understanding you can't give her that letter, or anything like that.

Realize that she has her own letter. It is probay MORE emotional and fed up, and in that letter she makes you look FAR worse than you present her here.

Forget about the scoreboard. Focus on the children first. That means you acknowledge that you W is gone at this time. Show her through your actions that you accept that and that you just want to minimize drama and stay involved with your children.

Then is take that letter and talk to your DB coach about it. You have some work to do before you can talk to your W. I think you're at the point your emotions are so strong you could enter a conversation with good intention and before you know it do or say something that could impact your family forever. Please slow down and be careful.

[billman12]

I agree, if we were to talk now, I would mistake myself to the end. My brain knows and understands, but my heart is not listening, and until it does - I am not ready.

[Jefe]

Billman, it's statements like these:

"I am sorry for the person you became, as you changed from the person you were."

Until you understand why this shouldn't be in a letter like this or any communication with your W, you should abstain from all R talks period.

[billman12]

You know I flat out understood that right there as you wrote it. I agree, because she did not change. I did.

[Jefe]

And yet, that is only part of my point.

[billman12]

The only logical resolve is that we both changed. I will read and learn more.

[MrBond]

"I am reading the book, and no the order did not say no contact with children."

Exactly. That's what I was trying to point out to you. You can still contact your kids. Why haven't you?

[billman12]

The only way for me to contact them would be through her unfortunately. And the order states no contact with her Direct or indirect.

[claire7]

Dude. Talk to a lawyer and figure it out. You said you want to be a better father. Do it.

They are your children for goodness sake!! Their father went to jail and now has ignored them for how long?? Fix it, sooner rather than later.

This is a great opportunity to show yourself that you can get unstuck.

[billman12]

I understand that it is important, but I have not ignored them by choice at all. Now I am sure that they may believe that, but it was not in my control. Not to mention I have no idea what she has told them about my "whereabouts", or the "reason" for my 'ignoring'.

[Jefe]

Billman, this is only partially true. If you were truly interested in contacting your kids, you would have already found a way to do it. Instead your sitting on the sidelines saying, "my hands are tied, I don't know what else to do."

Be proactive, figure it out.

[billman12]

I apologize, if she decided for any reason to violate the order for contact, direct or indirect - I could Technically spend a year in jail. My oldest is 10, and I have NO way to contact her directly. Even 3rd party contact she could call indirect. If I sent mail (the lawyer said) even in my daughters name - indirect contact. If i met them at the bus stop in the morning, wife would be there. They do not even get off the bus anymore, so I cannot see them there (not sure where they are dropped or picked up). Grammie and Grampie do not talk to me, so I cannot visit through them. And there is not even One family member between us for communication - so I have no way of setting it up with out Some contact with her.. I am not making excuses, I am avoiding the possible Vindictiveness of this illogically thinking woman that I cal my wife.

[claire7]

What does your lawyer say? If the order of protection does not include your children, there MUST be a way around it. A court-appointed mediator/facilitator to help set up visitation? Does their school principal or counselor know what is going on? You said that you were a lazy dad. Stop being lazy and figure out a way to show your children they are important to you! Is there a hearing about the order of protection? How long will it last?

You're right-- you can't control what SHE does, or what she tells the children, or what they think. You CAN control what YOU do.

This is a giant 2x4, in case you hadn't noticed.

[billman12]

The order has a court date tomorrow (Monday). If all goes well it should be dismissed. I plan to ask to see them right away. The lawyer had told me to avoid all contact with her for the sake of possible jail time. I have tried to ask my sister to contact her for the kids. and a couple of days ago here is the text my sister sent me:

I told her toy were asking about the kids, how are they, do they ask about you, do they miss you. Asked if she could let them know that you love them and miss them very much. She replied "they are fine"

I she resists after tomorrow, I plan to go for visitation.

Also, Honestly, due to this month, I do believe that it was "partially" good, in that after getting out of jail I was not emotionally as healed as of now (still a way to go). And at first I was ok with not seeing the kids for that reason, but it has become more unbearable.

[claire7]

Good luck with your court date.

Not sure what else to say. You seem content to throw your hands up and say "what can I do?" instead of fighting to see your children with every fiber of your being. That is sad to me.

If the order of protection is dropped tomorrow AND she still resists letting you see your kids, what plan do you have in place? Have you already spoken to your L about the immediate next step? Are you prepared to implement that next step immediately? Or is the plan to first start figuring all that out.

I really don't mean to bonk you when you are down, but this Mama bear's hairs are standing on edge thinking about how passive you are with regards to your kids.

You can do better, right? Make a list of the next three things you need to do to get yourself back into your kid's lives (because it's about THEM not you).

Good luck. You can do this.

[billman12]

I don't mean to sound passive, if anything I am asking advice on what I should do. A year in jail is scary and I did not want to take that chance. My L is only for the protective order, and 1 of 2 things will happen at court today: it will be dismissed or extended. If it is dismissed I will let her know that I want to see our children and arrange a time. If it is extended then first thing tomorrow I am going to file for visitation. I want to see them, and I want them to see me. I want to shower them with love and all the love I did not show before.

I want to reassure them that I have always loved them, be open with them and play with them. I want them to be happy and know that this is not their fault and they will be loved regardless of what happens, and that I will never leave them.

Also, before I went to jail and this order was in place, I am Sure I would have made the mistake of using them as a tool. I mean that by asking about mommy's day and what she does and pry information out of them.

I feel that this distance from the W and the children, might have been one of the best things that could have happened. But now enough is enough, I am stronger and I have a clear head. My heart needs work, but my knowledge and understanding of what it is I need to do has come a very long way. I will fight for them, tooth and nail if I have to. I do not believe she will try to keep them from me, but I will fight if I have to.

[billman12]

Had court, the order was changed to allow contact with her (peaceful contact) regarding children only for 1 year, unless she dismisses the order. The best part of this, it "forces" me to follow the rules of this forum and DB'ing. I still hold hope and will be strong.

Since I do not expect that she will contact me, i believe I should file for visitation tomorrow morning.

Oh and I am also not allowed on the property of what used to be our home for any reason during that 1 year.

[billman12]

sent my first message to her today - 5 minutes ago. "I miss our children. When can I see them?"

[billman12]

SO we talked a bit after i messaged her. The conversation was not a Perfect one, but i resisted better than i expected. I talked calmly and did not push any issues. We talked about scheduling time with the kids.

She did mention that she filed for support and visitation (hurt to hear it - makes it more real) - i did not say anything about it.

Just asking advice here - she started talking about some things about us (nothing good, but nothing bad) and then after a careful response from me, said she did not want to talk about it. But seconds later she would bring up something again. and repeated this several times (I did not bring anything up first). Not going to read into it, but I wanted to mention it.

[Zues126]

I think when a WAS say they don't want to talk about it they mean they don't care about anything that you have to say, but want to give you a piece of their mind. Just validate. No disagreements, no debating. There may be time for that much later. For now, communicate with your ACTIONS ONLY.

Good job not blowing it up. That must have been a terrifying conversation. By keeping it level you set the tone for an amicable separation. That's a critical first step towards anything good!

[billman12]

For sure, I did not mess it up, but I understand what you mean. She does not want Me to talk about it. Yes actions only is the goal. It was indeed terrifying, my heart was thumping the entire time.

Also - not jumping to conclusions, my sister had talked to W tonight and my sister says that W told her "I wish we could have handled this better, like adults instead of the protective order. I wanted to call him a lot of times but did not know where his emotional state was, and because of the court order." My sister says when my W told her this, she sounded upset.

I am not reading this or going to worry about it. I am just thinking that If I live by the rules and do the right things - because I have to for me - I can have a better smile for some hope.

[billman12]

So i talked to my kids on the phone today for the first time in a while. only a couple minutes, but well worth saying hi and telling them i miss them and love them. My oldest asked if I was going with them on Halloween, and I said that I would like to.

The W came on the phone and asked "do you want to take them?" and I replied, are you saying you don't want to go with them? I won't pester you or bother you." She said "it's not about that, we'll have to discuss that later."

I know I need to leave that alone, but what else could it possibly be about. Any insight? just to calm my nerves. I know i need to leave it and accept, but still.

[MrBond]

Rather than analyzing her moves, just take your kids. You haven't seen them in a long time. Go and make the most of it. Be the best dad ever. Don't grovel to your W. Especially if she had threatened you under false pretenses. She's trying to be the one who is in control. Don't let her do that by taking whatever she throws your way. They are YOUR KIDS.

[MrBond]

BTW, you need to start a new thread since this one is running out of space.