Married young, W had affair w/ coworker

[UpperCu]

I'm new here, so I'll try to get to the facts.

We recently moved out of state to allow W to pursue career and master's degree. Now that W is almost done with school, she is looking for jobs in her small and competitive field which has brought huge emotional swings up and down with each school/work/intern success and failure.

W had 3 week long EA/PA with coworker during out of town assignment, DDay was 3 weeks ago, at which time W says she has ended A (right after driving home from a work conference and OM's house which is out of state) but since she works in a small field, she cannot promise NC. She said she broke it off to figure out her future and her marriage and asked OM not to contact her, says he agreed but thinking back it seems like she left it open ended for herself to initiate. W is still pining after him each day and has admitted it has been hard not contacting him. She may see OM in a few weeks when on school related trip to give a presentation.

She says I deserve someone who can respect me and she can't give me what I need. I agree, but think she is saying this out of a PEA flooded alien brain.

During discovery I found a video (deleted) on our computer that W made of herself a few weeks before affair. She looked distraught and depressed after finding out her best friend got job she was pursuing. I think depression is part of what triggered A. I also work long hours during summer and W was alone at home working on papers during that time. She obsessed over the job she didn't get and had another job assignment/internship with different company at end of summer. The group works hard then parties hard.

W says she likes the new group better because she wants to party and feels like she got married too young. Feels trapped in marriage, although I have set few boundaries since I know she has a unique job field and I trusted her completely. Probably a big mistake in my part.

I've been through the roller coaster of emotions and made many newbie mistakes before finding this site: trying to be intimate, buying flowers, giving her massages, cheap forgiveness, not setting boundaries when W stays out with her friends (mostly men) until 3am or later, pursuing and texting/calling A LOT.

Found DB site last week and have been much better at not pursuing. W went out of town for training for weekend so I went on a road trip by myself to get away. Had a great time, visited fun new places, met new people. I've been hanging out with friends a lot, excersising and eating healthier. Trying to GAL. I see now that since moving for W's career, I have lost part of my identity and independence. In the past when I would meet new ppl I would talk about W and her successes, not myself.

We are Christians (W says she isn't anymore since A) and her parents have encouraged her to go to Christian MC. I asked for this also. She agreed to go to MC, but won't go to a Christian MC. Seems like she thinks Chrsitian MC won't see her side... We went to first MC session 2 weeks ago. Second session is today. Not sure if she will show up since I have stopped pursuing and stopped asking her plans. Not sure what she is doing anymore...

We're still living in same house and sleeping in same bed. She asked if I wanted to sleep in guest bedroom, I declined and said I don't think sleeping in same beds would help in long run if we reconcile marriage. She keeps a pillow in between us...

Right now her stance is she doesn't want to be married, doesn't want to reconcile, but has received numerous bits of advice from everyone she knows to not rush her decision. When I've asked what she wants, she tells me she really doesn't know. W has distanced herself from all friends and family who disagree with her actions.

I am white knuckling it each day, I appreciate any support and advice everyone!

UpperCut
M: 27 W: 25
Married: 3 yrs
Together: 6 yrs
Friends: 15 yrs
Dday: 9/14
No kids

[Starsky309]

Upper,

Since you guys have been together for SO long (and since you were both so YOUNG), I hate to say it but she's going to have to figure out what it feels like to be without you before she's ever going to be "all in" your marriage again. With no kids involved, by advice would be some variation of the "set them free" method, going completely dark, and doing Michele's after-the-LRT technique.

If you smother her, it's going to completely backfire. She needs to know you HEAR her, and that while you don't agree, you do respect her decision right now.

Of course, you WILL have to set boundaries as part of that (she should move out, or at LEAST move into the guest room and no just coming-and-going at all hours of the night . . . you shouldn't pay for ANYTHING that she uses to conduct her affair(s), etc.).

If I can find it, I'll post a link to some old "Set them Free" thoughts by an old poster around here -- there's some excellent stuff in there. It's basically just a harder-core version of MWD's "dropping the rope" mixed with her "after-the-LRT."


Hang in there,

Starsky

[MrBond]

Read what Starsky has to say. He's right on point.

Sorry that you find yourself in this situation. Have you read the DB or DR books yet?

[sandi2]

Welcome aboard. I was just wondering, you show in your signature line friends 15 yrs, were you dating during that time? Has she ever had a serious boyfriend, besides you?

[Jefe]

Upper,

So sorry that this is happening to you.

The pulling away from "sane" friends, "You deserve somebody better", the alien brain, all part of the wayward mentality.

Listen to MrBond and Starsky. They will lead you towards the path of mental health.

Have you found Sandi's 37 Rules?

You are on moderation so your posts arent showing up in real time, that have to be reviewed first so post frequent smaller posts on your own thread and others to get you off Mod quicker.

Also feel free to visit our Prayer Circle thread in this section.

Hang in there, man.

[UpperCu]

It was really encouraging after MC today to see the quick replies!

So MC was interesting... I didn't know what to expect as I really thought W might no-show since she has shown zero interest in R (verbally) but she text me an hour before to confirm we had an appointment AND showed up. Small win for the marriage! In the few minutes before the session W showed that she has noticed my changed behavior and lack of pursuing her. She even said - "You know you can talk to me right? You don't have to be so quiet." I told her I'm fine and I've just been thinking about things. These moments in the waiting room and during our session was the most we've talked all week...

Her position is still "I don't want to be tied down and married, but I don't want to lose H because I will probably be alone forever or if I'm with someone they won't love me like he does. So I don't know what I want."

At one point MC said to W "so it's like you've regressed to a younger version of yourself" after W talked about how she felt like she always had to act older than her age, and is finally getting to be young and free. She also said she came to the realization that before A her life was written out for her, but now it is a question mark and she likes that. All I could think was RUN HERE COME THE PEAs!

MC's advice last week was to hug and compliment each other and talk about the relationship... I tried that for a day and realized that we weren't ready for it. From reading Starsky's posts and Sandi's rules about a week after that I see that this MC misjudged our stitch last time. Maybe he's still figuring us out, and I think he gets it now.

When he asked if we could try the hug/compliment strategy, W said yes she would try it, and I said NO because.... Although W says she has NC with OM, she has plans to be in his territory in a few weeks and "can't promise she won't run into him." I'm not ready to return to ground zero and at this point, a 2nd A or continuation may be the end of the line for me. I also told MC and W that I have enough dignity and self respect that I won't tolerate a continued affair and pretend that we are both working on the R when W hasn't committed.

W is upstairs doing god knows what and I'm waiting to break the news that she needs to sleep in the guest BR like Starsky advised. She went out with her girlfriend to dinner after MC and to my surprise, was at home when I returned from hanging out with my own friends. Thanks Starsky for the advice to grow a spine and set boundaries on a separate thread ;-)

Haven't read DB or DR yet, trying to find a copy in town and don't want W to know I'm reading it. She monitors all my email, text, etc. and shares Amazon and Kindle account.

Also, W moving out won't work financially at this point as she is an unemployed student. I'm paying for everything, but have already told her I am not okay with her living at home or paying for anything if she continues the A. After laying that out, surprise surprise she has been job hunting...

Until next time...

[UpperCu]

Also feel free to visit our Prayer Circle thread in this section.

Thanks Jefe! I read through the prayers last night and it definitely helps knowing you all are also seeking biblical wisdom and relying on prayer to get through your own situations. My prayer is that my W would respond to God's work in her. Please pray for me to learn to "lay her at the foot of the cross" so God can deal with her like Starsky put it so well in one of his posts.

[UpperCu]

If you smother her, it's going to completely backfire. She needs to know you HEAR her, and that while you don't agree, you do respect her decision right now.

Of course, you WILL have to set boundaries as part of that (she should move out, or at LEAST move into the guest room and no just coming-and-going at all hours of the night . . . you shouldn't pay for ANYTHING that she uses to conduct her affair(s), etc.).

If I can find it, I'll post a link to some old "Set them Free" thoughts by an old poster around here -- there's some excellent stuff in there. It's basically just a harder-core version of MWD's "dropping the rope" mixed with her "after-the-LRT"

Talked with W last night before going to sleep. She initiated the convo and had quite a few questions about what I've been up to, where I went for dinner (met some friends from church), etc. Seems like she is noticing the lack of pursuit and is curious.

She told me she was surprised that during MC I was not ok with the hug/compliment assignment the counselor requested. She also said she was glad to see that I have started to GAL. I reiterated why I did not think we were ready for the hug/compliment approach (in my head I was thinking "because NOT pursuing is one of sandi's 37 rules") and told her that although she has ended the PA, since she cannot commit to not seeing OM and has not committed to our marriage, and has told me she has no plans to make any changes to avoid crossing paths with OM because of how it might affect her career, that from my perspective the A has not ended. I explained I have more dignity than to just allowing both the A to continue and pretend like we are reconciling our marriage.

She asked what was next, and I told her for starters, our bed represents our marriage, intimacy, our relationship and if she doesn't commit to our marriage I don't think she should sleep in it. She acknowledged and slept in the guest bed. I had a video chat with my family while she got ready for bed and she stayed within earshot the whole 30 minutes... She seems very interested and curious, maybe this is a sign of something happening to her?

Can't think of any ways I'm directly supporting her affair financially right now, although I pay for everything, but if she drives to his area (it's far enough away I'll know if she went) then I plan to set that boundary since I pay for her car, gas, insurance. Do you think I need to set a boundary financially at this point (I don't believe she is currently pursuing the A)?

Looking forward to reading more about the techniques you mentioned.

[Starsky309]

When he asked if we could try the hug/compliment strategy, W said yes she would try it, and I said NO because.... Although W says she has NC with OM, she has plans to be in his territory in a few weeks and "can't promise she won't run into him." I'm not ready to return to ground zero and at this point, a 2nd A or continuation may be the end of the line for me. I also told MC and W that I have enough dignity and self respect that I won't tolerate a continued affair and pretend that we are both working on the R when W hasn't committed.

Good job, UpperCu -- I know that wasn't easy, but you handled it like a champ.

Your wife is now likely going to swing all over the map, from super-nice to full-on-spew to everything in-between, as she tries to test your resolve. Just stay calm, remind her that this isn't what you wanted, but you've "heard" her that she doesn't want to be married to you and you're setting her free. Be sure to do GAL and remain lovingly detached, and come here frequently for help and guidance.

She's also going to probably trying to probe you for what you're thinking, what you've decided. Just say "I have a lot of thinking to do, and am looking at all of our options right now. This isn't what I wanted, but I also realize I'll be okay." Don't tip your hand.


Starsky

[Starsky309]

If you smother her, it's going to completely backfire. She needs to know you HEAR her, and that while you don't agree, you do respect her decision right now.

Of course, you WILL have to set boundaries as part of that (she should move out, or at LEAST move into the guest room and no just coming-and-going at all hours of the night . . . you shouldn't pay for ANYTHING that she uses to conduct her affair(s), etc.).

If I can find it, I'll post a link to some old "Set them Free" thoughts by an old poster around here -- there's some excellent stuff in there. It's basically just a harder-core version of MWD's "dropping the rope" mixed with her "after-the-LRT"

Talked with W last night before going to sleep. She initiated the convo and had quite a few questions about what I've been up to, where I went for dinner (met some friends from church), etc. Seems like she is noticing the lack of pursuit and is curious.

She told me she was surprised that during MC I was not ok with the hug/compliment assignment the counselor requested. She also said she was glad to see that I have started to GAL. I reiterated why I did not think we were ready for the hug/compliment approach (in my head I was thinking "because NOT pursuing is one of sandi's 37 rules") and told her that although she has ended the PA, since she cannot commit to not seeing OM and has not committed to our marriage, and has told me she has no plans to make any changes to avoid crossing paths with OM because of how it might affect her career, that from my perspective the A has not ended. I explained I have more dignity than to just allowing both the A to continue and pretend like we are reconciling our marriage.

She asked what was next, and I told her for starters, our bed represents our marriage, intimacy, our relationship and if she doesn't commit to our marriage I don't think she should sleep in it. She acknowledged and slept in the guest bed. I had a video chat with my family while she got ready for bed and she stayed within earshot the whole 30 minutes... She seems very interested and curious, maybe this is a sign of something happening to her?

Can't think of any ways I'm directly supporting her affair financially right now, although I pay for everything, but if she drives to his area (it's far enough away I'll know if she went) then I plan to set that boundary since I pay for her car, gas, insurance. Do you think I need to set a boundary financially at this point (I don't believe she is currently pursuing the A)?

Looking forward to reading more about the techniques you mentioned.

Sorry, just saw this and so cross-posted, Upper. Again, GREAT JOB.

Yes, I do think you're going to have to set some financial boundaries, although it doesn't have to be today as you've already swallowed a lot. Maybe just tell her "Just so you know, I am NOT okay with spending of our joint family money on you seeing him, or in any way paying for you to conduct an affair, just so we're clear." You may have to make those moves soon or she may just respect your boundary like she did with the marital bed.

Stay the course . . . you're doing well.


Starsky

[UpperCu]

Yes, I do think you're going to have to set some financial boundaries, although it doesn't have to be today as you've already swallowed a lot. Maybe just tell her "Just so you know, I am NOT okay with spending of our joint family money on you seeing him, or in any way paying for you to conduct an affair, just so we're clear." You may have to make those moves soon or she may just respect your boundary like she did with the marital bed.

Stay the course . . . you're doing well.


Starsky

So I've been thinking about financial boundaries today and I'm not sure how to proceed. Here are some more details:

W initially confessed to EA after I found emails between her and OM on her phone, she voluntarily let me look at it but I found the email in her trash folder so she had to come up with a story. I directly asked her if she had sex with him, which she lied about several times saying it was only emotional. I connected the dots a few days later that it was also a PA for several weeks after a review of her Internet search history.

W is a grad student, is financially dependent on me, and she is currently unemployed. On Dday I set the financial boundary that I was not okay with supporting her if an affair was ongoing. After sending a firm email to her while she was on an out of town conference near where OM lives, she had one more fling with OM before coming home.

I told her then that I would not support us living together if she is in ongoing affair with OM. I laid out a plan where i basically would provide her with food, but I expected her to pay for half of all expenses going forward and to end the A before returning home. At this point I thought she was never coming home. She was avoiding me and I was shell shocked.

She came home after ending the A and has since been looking for jobs. She hasn't gotten one yet, but she decided last week to take out a $10k student loan which she says is for job certifications. I'm not that dumb and I realize she wants a safety net since her family is not supportive of her decisions and has advised her to reconcile the marriage and have encouraged me to hang in there. One of her supportive "whatever makes YOU happy" feminist friends likely advised her to do this. The job certifications are also necessary for a future project that OM will also work on... She never said she wanted these certifications before A.

The $10k is sitting in our joint account and she told me yesterday she wants to move it to a savings account. I've handled all finances and she has refused to help me out with handling finances when I've asked pre-affair. With that said, she doesn't have a clue about money or transferring funds, or how to get a debit card for one of our savings accounts... She asked for me to help her. I had previously asked for her NOT to take out this loan since she did not need it and we could sell a few things to pay for any certifications she needs.

My feelings on how to proceed financially are divided and I feel disrespected every day the loan money sits there. If she decides to reconcile I think one of my stipulations will be to return the loan funds as a sign to show she is serious. I will plan to tell her that very soon when I reiterate "not" using family money for her affair(s). Like you said Starsky, yesterday was a big pillow pill to swallow...

What are your thoughts on financial boundaries and my approach?

Feedback and prayers from all are welcomed.

[Starsky309]

Is your name also on her student loan?

[UpperCu]

Is your name also on her student loan?

No, the loan is only in her name. The funds are sitting in our joint bank account right now though.

[Starsky309]

Then let her set up her own account, and put the funds in there. Then you put together a plan that has her contributing to the shared family expenses, proportional to your incomes (with a floor on hers of say "25/75" or something, so that she needs to continue to go find a job). You have your own account, that your paycheck gets direct deposited into, and then you have a joint account that you each contribute into each month for the shared family expenses. If she wants to use DEBT as her contribution, let that be her problem.

[Starsky309]

With that said, she doesn't have a clue about money or transferring funds, or how to get a debit card for one of our savings accounts... She asked for me to help her. I had previously asked for her NOT to take out this loan since she did not need it and we could sell a few things to pay for any certifications she needs.

So let her learn -- with her own money. Trying to tell her what to do with funds that do NOT have your name tied to them is controlling and you come across more like you're her dad than her husband. Let her put on her BGPs and find her own way here, as long as it doesn't hurt you.

Make sense?


Starsky

[UpperCu]

It all makes sense. Since she has been in grad school I have been either the sole contributor or made 2-3 times as much as her. It is sinking in that you are right on, she needs to contribute her fair share, although a part of me wants to hold onto financial control... My eyes are opening to the fact that I need to allow her to grow up in this area.

I hope you're getting paid to do this. You're pretty good...

[Starsky309]

LOL -- just trying to pay it forward, as there were others on this very forum that helped me thru my sitch 7 1/2 years ago.


Starsky

[Jefe]

Trying to tell her what to do with funds that do NOT have your name tied to them is controlling and you come across more like you're her dad than her husband. Let her put on her BGPs and find her own way here, as long as it doesn't hurt you.

Let me chime in here that Starsky is dead on. This has been a huge problem in my marriage, that I come across as more of a dad than a husband. Keep in mind, wayward wives often act like children but you gotta temper the urge to sound like "dad".

[UpperCu]

During our premarital counseling several years ago we were advised to avoid developing a parent/child environment in our relationship so we have both always been conscious of when that is happening. Of course it has been unavoidable at times and it was easier to stay away from that while she was also working full time before grad school. Now she is in school with many single and "free" friends who live off loans and/or part time jobs and I'm working full time surrounded by adults older than myself, our lives are definitely out of sync. She is nearing the end of school so that will naturally push her into a different, more realistic environment (I'm assuming.).

I can't agree more though, her wayward mind ran straight to "child." That was evident in how she reacted to anyone who showed authority over her or "told" her what she should do. I'm praying and trust that the lack of pursuit and release of control will allow the affair fog to clear, albeit very slowly...

[Jefe]

"I can't agree more though, her wayward mind ran straight to "child." That was evident in how she reacted to anyone who showed authority over her or "told" her what she should do. I'm praying and trust that the lack of pursuit and release of control will allow the affair fog to clear, albeit very slowly..."

AMEN, living a parallel situation here, for sure.

[UpperCu]

W is definitely curious about changes in my behavior. I shared previously that we had barely spoken in past week except for at MC. Last night when I got home W initiated a 2 hour convo. I started off with minimal info, used good eye contact and listened closely to what she was saying. She was roller coastering like Starsky predicted. From tears about being sorry for A and expressing how isolated and alone she feels, to anger about how I have given her an ultimatum that basically means she has to give up her career if she wants to be with me (I've never said that, just said NC with OM is a must if we are to continue marriage, which she seems convinced would end her fledgling career before it even starts). At one point she even said she loves me... I took that with a grain of salt and did not say it back. The whole convo I was looking for commitment to marriage from her or signs of what she will change, but it doesn't look like she has resolved to make any lifestyle changes at this point. So far she has respected my boundary of not sleeping in marital bed without commitment and hasn't stayed out late drinking. She did comment that her drinking buddies really arent great friends, since they don't have a clue about what she is really dealing with... Duh. It's been two days, but I'm sure you all know these small wins feels huge at this point!

I laid out financial explanations as well. I reiterated my plan to share in family costs and that family $ should not be used for A. She is in a crunch time for her Grad program so we agreed to table the financial convo for right now, but to revisit soon. She is going to continue to look for jobs in the meantime. I have laid a lot out as far as expectations this week and am trying to be loving while firm. Any comments on this approach?

She did not want to use debt to contribute to living expenses and brought up her legal case that as a dependent spouse, I couldn't leave her out to dry. This has been a concern of mine from a legal standpoint of we end up getting divorced based on research of laws in my state. I have NOT consulted with an attorney though. I feel like that may set a process in motion I don't want since I really want to reconcile. Your thoughts?

Saw W briefly at home during lunch today and had small talk about our days (initiated by her). She asked what my plans were and I sing ask what gets were. She noticed I made the bed for the first time in a long time... And in response I simply said "well you're usually still in it when I leave for work every day..." LOL

Hope you guys are doing well on your end. Will try to look at your sitch more tonight Jefe.

[Tarheel]

I have NOT consulted with an attorney though. I feel like that may set a process in motion I don't want since I really want to reconcile. Your thoughts?

Look around and you should be able to find a attorney who gives free initial consultations. That doesn't start any process- just gives you some info of what you should/should not be doing. And W doesn't have to know anything about it.

[Devaste]

I totally echo the advice ^^^^^^^^^

It's prudent and smart to protect yourself regardless of the outcome.
Doesn't mean the D process is starting or anything.

You'll have an idea of what to expect and of what will happen
should a D occur.

Knowledge is power.

Dev

[UpperCu]

Look around and you should be able to find a attorney who gives free initial consultations. That doesn't start any process- just gives you some info of what you should/should not be doing. And W doesn't have to know anything about it.

Thanks Tarheel, I have called around to local attorneys for quotes and initial one hour consultations run from $100-$250. Any tips on how to negotiate a lower cost? I'm new to the attorney game...

Looks like W has decided to stay out late tonight drinking with her friend. While she is out drinking, her "former" friends are calling me to vent their frustrations about her new wayward mind. W recently told off her best friend of 10+ years when she and her husband told her they didn't agree with W's desire to divorce me...

Keep me in your prayers, today was a bad day.

[Tarheel]

Thanks Tarheel, I have called around to local attorneys for quotes and initial one hour consultations run from $100-$250. Any tips on how to negotiate a lower cost? I'm new to the attorney game...

Ask around to friends or relatives. Even friends who are M always seem to know someone who's gone through D. Most consultations in my area are free (smaller offices)- $100

[UpperCu]

I am glad I found the passage below this morning. It was spot on with how I was feeling. The nights are definitely the hardest part of the day in DBing.

PSALM 30
I will extol you, O LORD, for you have drawn me up and have not let my foes rejoice over me. 2 O LORD my God, I cried to you for help, and you have healed me. 3 O LORD, you have brought up my soul from Sheol; you restored me to life from among those who go down to the pit. 4 Sing praises to the LORD, O you his saints, and give thanks to his holy name. 5 For his anger is but for a moment, and his favor is for a lifetime. Weeping may tarry for the night, but joy comes with the morning. 6 As for me, I said in my prosperity, “I shall never be moved.” 7 By your favor, O LORD, you made my mountain stand strong; you hid your face; I was dismayed. 8 To you, O LORD, I cry, and to the Lord I plead for mercy: 9 “What profit is there in my death, if I go down to the pit? Will the dust praise you? Will it tell of your faithfulness? 10 Hear, O LORD, and be merciful to me! O LORD, be my helper!”  11 You have turned for me my mourning into dancing; you have loosed my sackcloth and clothed me with gladness, 12 that my glory may sing your praise and not be silent. O LORD my God, I will give thanks to you forever!

[sandi2]

. She seems very interested and curious, maybe this is a sign of something happening to her?

I just wanted to caution you to not mistake her curiosity for her changing.

[UpperCu]

Thanks Sandi. That is a very good differentiation to make.

What are some signs that would indicate changes? Can any of you veterans share from your own experience?

[UpperCu]

Here's an update:

W has been the one to initiate all conversations this past week. She asks my whereabouts, and I tell her, but I don't ask what she is doing or who she will be with. Last night she voluntarily TOLD me where she was going! Wow! It seemed like she either wanted to invite me but her pride got in the way, or she wanted me to know I can trust that she isn't running off with someone. Who knows. She also didn't stay out as late this time. Maybe because she was still hungover from the night before...

She has reminded me that the A has ended on multiple occasions this past week; I'm convinced it is only on "pause" while she sorts through her feelings. Also she'll be in OM's area in 2 weeks for a school presentation. I'm curious how she will handle that as I feel like it will tell me where she is at. She still hasn't recommitted to the marriage and hasn't promised NC with OM...

Still waiting for DB/DR books to come in the mail. Looking forward to reading them.

[UpperCu]

Another update...

Talked with my sister today. She and W were close friends before W and I dated. We all ran in the same crowd during college. They haven't been as close in recent years but have been able to pick up where they left off over the years. Since the bomb, W cut off contact with my family altogether. My mom reached out to her with no response and my sister decided to reach out yesterday to let her know she loved her, missed her, and was praying for her. My sister told me that W responded!! She said "thank you for the prayers, I'm just trying to figure everything out right now"

I know you're not supposed to measure progress daily/weekly at this point, but I've seen a number of signs that the wheels in W's head might be turning.

I have plans tonight with some mutual friends without W; I might invite her if she asks what I'm doing after I get home from work, assuming she is around. She hasn't texted or called me all week and I haven't either. Trying to stay the course... GAL+Detaching

Happy Friday everyone!

[UpperCu]

Ok, W has opened her own bank account today and transferred her $10k+ loan money out. She didn't say anything before doing it, although this was a boundary I set since I don't want Her to use family money to perpetuate affair. I haven't talked to her in a couple days (still under same roof but she only approaches me occasionally).

Any advice on what to say to her if she brings up the new bank account? I'm working on dropping the rope.

I am guessing her next move is to move out. Any advice on what to say if she drops that bomb? Trying to be prepared mentally for whatever happens...

[Jefe]

"I am guessing her next move is to move out. Any advice on what to say if she drops that bomb? Trying to be prepared mentally for whatever happens..."

Upper, you won't be ready. Just know that. The only thing you can really prepare for is that it's going to affect you in a way you didn't expect. Unless you are completely, emotionally detached.

[UpperCu]

Weekend went alright. W and I were both home this weekend. She was working on school papers, I was working on projects around the house that I've been putting off for the past 6 months.

W initiated several long conversations about our relationship. She apologized for the A, acknowledged it was wrong, and she cried. I just nodded and said okay and held my hand out to comfort her and she gave it a squeeze. That was the most physical contact we've had in 2-3 weeks. She had many questions about my changed behavior, and I apologized for not doing things differently in the past (I used to work late often, now I've been coming home on time, I've been hanging with friends every night, been going to church and bible studies, excercising more often, eating healthier, making the bed every day, picking up after myself, focusing more on my physical appearance).

She is still saying that she wants to know what she missed out on by getting married so young, that she has accessed a part of herself that she can't ignore and whatever happens, she doesn't want to regret passing up on the opportunity to be free and independent and NOT married. She is annoyed that she is legally bound by marriage, and I said I hear what you're saying and as far as I'm concerned, legally bound of not, you're free to do what you want. You know where I stand and that I didn't want this, but you're an adult and free.

I've done a good job at dropping the rope and we haven't argued. Although what she is saying is really hurtful, I swallow my pride and acknowledge those are her very real feelings.

I've checked up on her computer use and don't think she is in contact with OM, but can tell she is planning to see him soon. Seems like SHS is spending time each day fantasizing about him, looking up actors who look like him, watching sex scenes, etc... Her presentation in a couple weeks is related to a project he worked on so I think she is dreaming up her next encounter.

I know I'm breaking one of Sandi's rules...

Is there a healthy amount of checking up on her I can do to confirm if the affair is still ongoing? Or am I just hurting myself by not fully detaching emotionally? I feel like I know the answer, and I need to get out of the way so God can work, whatever his will is, but I am struggling with letting go. Any wise words?

[UpperCu]

Past few days have been rough. Have had very little contact with W, she hasn't called or texted me at all and I haven't either. I've been keeping busy but not seeing any visible changes is pretty rough. I feel stuck in limbo right now and it's painful.

I've started to read DB and I'm convinced divorce would be a terrible outcome, but I see little hope of reconciliation at this point. W seems to be staying far away from me.

I feel like I understand better what caused the room in our relationship for an A to occur. I gave my wife little attention on a daily basis, complained about work a lot but did nothing to improve my situation, ignored her encouragement when she tried to help us live healthier and exercise more. She was always available to me for support and was a really good wife, but I didn't recognize her efforts at the time. I rarely reciprocated the level of support and encouragement she gave me. I think she has begun to resent marriage because of what our relationship was like.

I know I can't change the past, or make decisions for her, and I'm trying to focus my energy on letting the hurt and pain I feel drive me to improve myself so no matter the outcome I am a better man and husband to my lovely wife or another woman, or if I'm single, however God wills it.

[Sotto]

Sounds like you have a good PMA in the last para. Focus on yourself for now and be patient - it's early days yet - and doesn't sound as though things are beyond hope for your R even if your W is distant at the moment.

Just detach & GAL, and hang on in there!

[Starsky309]

Is there a healthy amount of checking up on her I can do to confirm if the affair is still ongoing? Or am I just hurting myself by not fully detaching emotionally? I feel like I know the answer, and I need to get out of the way so God can work, whatever his will is, but I am struggling with letting go. Any wise words?

What would you do differently if the affair was still going on, vs. if it weren't?

[Starsky309]

W initiated several long conversations about our relationship. She apologized for the A, acknowledged it was wrong, and she cried. I just nodded and said okay and held my hand out to comfort her and she gave it a squeeze. That was the most physical contact we've had in 2-3 weeks. She had many questions about my changed behavior, and I apologized for not doing things differently in the past (I used to work late often, now I've been coming home on time, I've been hanging with friends every night, been going to church and bible studies, excercising more often, eating healthier, making the bed every day, picking up after myself, focusing more on my physical appearance).

She is still saying that she wants to know what she missed out on by getting married so young, that she has accessed a part of herself that she can't ignore and whatever happens, she doesn't want to regret passing up on the opportunity to be free and independent and NOT married. She is annoyed that she is legally bound by marriage, and I said I hear what you're saying and as far as I'm concerned, legally bound of not, you're free to do what you want. You know where I stand and that I didn't want this, but you're an adult and free.

I've done a good job at dropping the rope and we haven't argued. Although what she is saying is really hurtful, I swallow my pride and acknowledge those are her very real feelings.

Regarding all of this ^^^^ . . . excellent job.


Starsky

[UpperCu]

Is there a healthy amount of checking up on her I can do to confirm if the affair is still ongoing? Or am I just hurting myself by not fully detaching emotionally? I feel like I know the answer, and I need to get out of the way so God can work, whatever his will is, but I am struggling with letting go. Any wise words?

What would you do differently if the affair was still going on, vs. if it weren't?

I think this is a good differentiation Starsky. I may be asking the wrong question.

I've been focused on whether the affair is still going on although my real concern is whether my wife has recommitted to our marriage or not. Thinking out loud here... She could choose to recommit and backslide, which would be painful but possible to survive, although me watching too closely might place too much pressure on her and wreck our progress. Or she might not recommit and not continue the affair, and by me watching her every move closely, I could misinterpret that behavior as a commitment to our marriage mistakenly. These seem like good reasons to stop spying. A big piece of me still feels betrayed and wants to continue watching her every move out of self defense.

To answer the question, I don't think I would do anything differently if the affair was continuing. I am working on detaching and GAL every day and that would need to continue if the affair is ongoing. I am starting to see the positive affects GAL will have if we do reconcile. Detaching seems to be helping me let go of control of her, and is giving me more dignity.

I feel like I'm at a point where I'm still holding onto what we had before the affair, even though I know that relationship died when she gave into the temptation of the affair. I am remorseful that I failed to listen to her before the affair happened. This has really opened my eyes up to what kind of husband I've been.

[Starsky309]

To answer the question, I don't think I would do anything differently if the affair was continuing.

Then there's your answer. For me, in my own sitch, continued contact with her ex-OM after my wife had promised no-contact and transparency was an absolute dealbreaker, so I continued to gather some random intel.

Each man must know his own core boundaries.


Starsky

[Starsky309]

I've been focused on whether the affair is still going on although my real concern is whether my wife has recommitted to our marriage or not.

I'm confused then. Let me re-phrase my question: What would you do differently (or more simply, what would you DO) if you found proof that your wife was not sincerely committed to your marriage, and was just playing you?

I'm confused because just a week ago, you said:

When he asked if we could try the hug/compliment strategy, W said yes she would try it, and I said NO because.... Although W says she has NC with OM, she has plans to be in his territory in a few weeks and "can't promise she won't run into him." I'm not ready to return to ground zero and at this point, a 2nd A or continuation may be the end of the line for me. I also told MC and W that I have enough dignity and self respect that I won't tolerate a continued affair and pretend that we are both working on the R when W hasn't committed.

Can you clarify?


thanks,

Starsky

[UpperCu]

Sorry for the confusion. I have been back and forth, but I've solidified in my mind what my boundary is. No contact is where I draw the line. If she crosses that line, then I plan to proceed with legal separation.

Yesterday afternoon I asked W if she had time to discuss our relationship this week. She responded 7 hours later (after I was already asleep) asking what time. I responded with a couple times that worked when I woke up at 5 this morning. She never responded, but I saw her at home when I took lunch today. She sounded groggy and hung over and was in her bath robe still (at 1:30pm).

She asked what I wanted to talk about and we jumped right into conversation. It wasn't heated, but she restated her feelings of not wanting to be married, wanting freedom and independence (ironic when she is still fully financially dependent on me and has been unable to find a job). She explained she was frustrated that so many others (her own family and friends mostly) are focused on the affair as if that is the problem to address when to her the real issues she is facing are her desires to be free, unmarried, independent, etc. I acknowledged those were real desires she has, and that they were also STRONG feelings for her. I agreed that having two people choosing to be together is crucial for an R to exist. She asked about what I thought about the R and I said I think we are not living like a married couple since we rarely talk and rarely see each other. I told her I wanted to discuss finances further (we tabled that talk a week or two ago) and I asked if we could set a time in about a week to discuss finances after a big deadline for her school work.

She wanted to talk about finances right now, so we did. I told her I appreciate her respecting my wishes to honor our marital bed by not sleeping in it if she is not committed to our marriage, and for respecting my request to open her own bank account to hold her student loan funds that I disagreed with her taking out. I told her although I disagreed with her getting a $10k loan I respect that as an adult she had the right to make those types of decisions. I brought up another request I had - for her to stop using my credit card (it's in my name but she is an authorized user). She's been racking up shopping and alcohol bills on it. I made sure to not react to any single purchase, but waited to bring it up when I had time to think about my approach.

She apologized for using the credit card and said she was just doing what she thought we always did, put some things in the card and pay it off when we can (not true... and last week she was bragging to her friend about how she knew she shouldn't have bought $150 boots right now but DIDNT CARE!). The "old" me would have been pissed and given her the reaction she was probably looking for.

I also brought up my stance on the no contact boundary. She has a presentation in 10 days where she will likely run into the OM. I asked if she had talked to him and she swore she had no contact since DDay apart from a group message sent to others who worked on her project. I told her I understood no contact was nearly impossible since she has such a small field and is bound to run into him at a conference or meeting at some point in her career. I told her I understood and agreed it was really difficult, but reminded her I didn't want this and told her that I can't see how our relationship will last if nothing changes, and if she is working in the same context as when the affair occurred. She said she sees my point, but cannot and will not give up her career. I've never asked for her to give up her career, but in her narrow sighted mind can only imagine working for one organization (there are actually quite a few other options available to her which she is not pursuing at this time). She said she knows it was stupid to have an affair when she was married and with someone she works with. I told her that no contact is critical to me and as it concerns our marriage, that I could not see how it would work if a third person is still in the picture. The hard work of rebuilding trust we would go through if we reconcile would be impossible if she still sees him.

She seemed close to tears when I left to go back to work.

I feel at peace and am interested to see her response to my reaffirmed boundaries.

Headed to a football game tonight with a buddy. Thank God for GALing.

[sandi2]

Thanks Sandi. That is a very good differentiation to make.

What are some signs that would indicate changes? Can any of you veterans share from your own experience?

People can make a change out of an act of their own free will. Going this route is harder, IMHO, b/c your feelings may not support the action. For example, we may attend church today b/c we believe it is the right thing to do. However, our emotions may screaming to do something else. We either will act from our will or our feelings.

It is so much easier when the heart and the action are in tune. When there has been true change in the heart.....the action will follow. Usually there is a smooth flow to the actions b/c it is not forced.

When I decided to stay in my M, it was strictly out of doing the right thing. My heart was not in it. If my heart had changed, I believe my H could have seen it in my eyes, my smile, my actions, etc. He could have heard it in my voice. It would have had a smooth, natural flow. But as it was, I had to act from my "will" instead of my heart.

As far as "signs" go, I believe a good sign is if she has remorse. As long as she has an "attitude"......and is not humble, then there really has been no change. Could she fake it? I suppose, but why would she? And it would not be long before you saw through it, b/c an unrepentant heart is hard to disguise for any length of time.

[UpperCu]

Thanks for the insight Sandi.

This weekend we talked several times and my W told me she is just waiting for me to retaliate and start hating her. I told her that she was my friend first, that we had a good friendship before we ever started to date. It was actually an "awkward" part about how our relationship started out...

Our first kiss felt to me like I was kissing my sister because we were such good friends! She was also very adamant about not wanting to be called my "girlfriend" at the time since she didn't want to seem like she belonged to me. I wasn't in a rush to get serious, as I had been burned in the past by previous breakups, so I agreed that was fine. She eventually was the one who wanted to know where we stood and suggested we let others know we were officially together. She assured me it would be many years before she would ever consider marriage (once again I had no reason to hurry so I let her set the pace there). She of course was the one to continue to bring up the topic of M and I listened and thought about the idea. After we were dating for a few months I told her I loved her, she looked at me like I was nuts, but several weeks later she came to me crying one night professing she loved me too. After 2 1/2 years of dating I proposed, which was followed by a one year engagement.

When we talked this weekend she was very open about her feelings and said she felt like it would hurt me since they are such negative feelings about me and our R. I assured her I wanted to know how she really felt, good and bad. She said it was surprising to hear me say she was my friend above everything. She didn't expect me to have that reaction. She said in all the blogs she reads, the aftermath of an A is much messier and hateful.

I'm feeling hurt right now as I hold out in limbo, but trying to keep it together. W had IC this morning and I have it this evening. I haven't heard from her in a couple days.

Please keep me in your prayers!

[UpperCu]

My IC went well the other day, in my opinion. Same counselor is seeing W and I for IC. He did reveal that nothing had changed for my W, and expressed concern for her, that she doesn't have a clue what she is doing and throwing away. He had positive things to say about me and how I've handled the sitch. He even said he would be flipping her the bird if it was him. I am sure much of that is part of his attempt to build me up and steer me to a happy place. I told him I am committed for the R long term, regardless if the ship appears to be sinking. I told him I am not OK with her continuing this A or others though.

My core boundary is NC between W and OM.

My intel has revealed that W finally got a job... She hasn't told me yet, but we haven't talked or crossed paths since she got it. Preparing myself for that convo, as I feel like she will see the job as "the sh!t hitting the fan" and is probably expecting me to freak out about losing her.

I think it's great she got a job and can now contribute; although it is now more likely she will want to move out and push for separation so she can taste her independence and freedom... It is painful to think about, but like Starsky said early on, she will need to know what it's like without me in her life before she can decide to stay or go.

I'm going to do my best to show support and encouragement.

This weekend she will be at an out of town presentation and will likely cross paths with the OM. She invited a girlfriend to join her, which gives me one tiny ounce of hope she won't be rolling around with OM. Not sure what to think about that yet... It's out of her control if he shows up, but the fact she knows he might be there, to me, is offensive. It's probably going to be a rough weekend.

[Starsky309]

My intel has revealed that W finally got a job... She hasn't told me yet, but we haven't talked or crossed paths since she got it. Preparing myself for that convo, as I feel like she will see the job as "the sh!t hitting the fan" and is probably expecting me to freak out about losing her.

I think it's great she got a job and can now contribute; although it is now more likely she will want to move out and push for separation so she can taste her independence and freedom... It is painful to think about, but like Starsky said early on, she will need to know what it's like without me in her life before she can decide to stay or go.

I'm going to do my best to show support and encouragement.

I think that's smart.

This is one of the things I love about good intel (I'm a huge fan, even though most here are firmly in the "NO SNOOPING!" camp). It gives you the opportunity to "see around the corner," as it were, and prepare for your responses. So rather than go into your old, "chit-hitting-the-fan"/reactionary mode, you now have the opportunity to do a confident 180: "I think that's great! They're (the company) lucky to have you -- I think you'll do great there." (or some such)


Starsky

[UpperCu]

Convo about W's new job went fine this afternoon. I showed her I was supportive and excited for her achievement. She was all smiles and I left the convo before she did, I think it was a positive interaction overall.

We talked this evening and she grilled me on how I'm REALLY feeling. She said this whole situation has been nothing like ALL the blogs she reads. I'm supposed to be retaliating and freaking out. At one point she was nearly in tears as she apologized for doing this to me, for wasting my time with M, and sorry that I will be attached to all this for the rest of my life. Obviously I'm seeing major mood swings, she hasn't been blaming me or "spewing" constantly but she seems shocked that I'm not hateful, mean, or telling her what to do like the rest of her family and friends... She said she isn't sure if I really care about her or if I'm just trying to win her back, but either way she appreciates how I've been.

W's mom text me today saying she is praying for us and me especially, voiced her concerns about W being so lost. In a nice way I told her W needs some space to sort things through for herself right now (MIL has been hounding W to change every day) and I encouraged her not to worry, that W is her usual smart and spunky self and that I support her pursuits of independence and responsibility in whatever role I am to her, as a friend or husband. W asked to read the convo and I let her, she seemed annoyed at her mom for meddling behind her back...

W also told me that in her session the IC (MC scheduled separate sessions for each of us this week) said that I'm just in "a bubble" right now, that he sees this all the time. As if I'm about to lose it and implode when the chit-hits-the-fan. I told her he basically said the same thing about her... LOL. It's like our MC is just saying whatever we want to hear so we both think we're in the right. Seems like W is giving up on counseling. I've got another session scheduled with this guy.

What do you all think - Time for a new counselor?

W is def still secretly looking up OM daily, attempting to plan a visit and my theory is she is monitoring if OM and his girlfriend are going to break up so she can make a move. That or she is on guard in case he or she starts talking... Either way, she totally plays down any feelings towards the OM, which is obviously BS. She keeps saying "I only want to leave our M to be independent and free, this has nothing to do with OM" HA! Physical Affair=Zero Residual Feelings? Not buying it.

W also wanted to talk more about the "next step" in our R. I was vague saying I do not know what will happen. She was clear that she still wants a D and went on and on about how much of a waste of time and money our R, wedding, wedding ring, etc. were. My spew jacket got dirty for a few minutes there. She said IC was advising she seek mediation, not a D attorney.

Another day of living with the Affair Brain down, wish me luck tomorrow.

[Jefe]

"...how much of a waste of time and money our R, wedding, wedding ring, etc. were."

Wow.

I think I would have had to go for a walk about this time.

Your strong. Keep it up.

[UpperCu]

She is all over the place. At one point in the same convo she said I'm the perfect man for her, and that she will always know she at least had one true love. She also laughed that someday she will probably be stalking me and my happy new family... Its hard to be mad or hurt when none of it is even logical.

[Jefe]

She is all over the place. At one point in the same convo she said I'm the perfect man for her, and that she will always know she at least had one true love. She also laughed that someday she will probably be stalking me and my happy new family... Its hard to be mad or hurt when none of it is even logical.

You've got the perfect man and your true love but you're leaving?

Hmmm

This is just my unprofessional 2¢ and I'm by no means a vet, but I think your W is wrestling with some serious post coitus, affair fog, guilt. My wife is dealing with some of this too.

Stay the course. There may be hope. It might be a long road, but keep at it. Listen to Starsky's advice here and on other threads.

[Sotto]

Sounds like there is a huge inner struggle going on there for your W - and really interesting comments about true love and perfect man.

One one level your W seems to know that she will feel huge regret about the possible loss of your R - and knows that you will find happiness with some other great person if this happens - and that her own life might pale in comparison.

On another level, she's still drawn to OM - even though he's unavailable now. It certainly sounds as though you should hang on in there.

But do try to really GAL for your own sake/sanity - what's going on for you must be really tough to live with...

Best of luck to you though...

[Starsky309]

She is all over the place. At one point in the same convo she said I'm the perfect man for her, and that she will always know she at least had one true love. She also laughed that someday she will probably be stalking me and my happy new family... Its hard to be mad or hurt when none of it is even logical.

Your wife sounds like she's 25-going-on-15. Did she not have a chance to live out her 18-24 years or something? She sounds like he's having a "quarter-life-crisis."

btw, even if you end up choosing a mediator, you ABSOLUTELY should also hire your own attorney to look over any final agreement before signing it. Whether or not your wife does is up to her.


Starsky

[Jefe]

"She sounds like he's having a "quarter-life-crisis.""

That's funny. I mean not really, but yeah.

[UpperCu]

Yeah Jefe, sometimes I can only laugh because it is so ridiculous!

Starsky, she actually "self diagnosed" this as as a quarter life crisis... I knew her when she was 15 and you're right on, she has gone back a decade. I am hopeful her new job will open her eyes again to responsibility, adulthood, and reality. During our R I have seen her levels of appreciation for me and bard work go up and down as she has been employed/unemployed. I'm convinced unemployment is a horrible disease that eats away at the soul...

For now the test is to see if she can get through this weekend without contacting OM. She is telling me he probably won't show up to her presentation, but I am confident he will. He was at the last one 6 months ago (I was there that time and this weekend it's in the same place with the same people). Her friend who knows about and disagrees with the sitch is going with her, so that might serve as some accountability. Intel is saying she has been preparing herself for some sort of contact with OM though. Probably sexual...

I think this will be a defining weekend for our relationship.

[sandi2]

She is telling me he probably won't show up to her presentation, but I am confident he will.

She doesn't get it. The test does not depend upon the actions of the OM, but her own.

[Jefe]

"she actually "self diagnosed" this as as a quarter life crisis"

Are you kidding me?!? Starsky's comment was tongue in cheek. That's insane.

I feel for you, sir. Praying as well.

[UpperCu]

W has been cake eating with our money (not literally, she doesn't even like cake =D) while she's been out of town this weekend so I text her to discuss it. I asked her to not use my credit card for anything but gas since she had been charging that card for restaurants and alcohol; she replied right away that she agreed and I sent another message right away to discuss how we would be spending money, I laid out a plan and asked for her input. She ignored my text, so after 2 days and a few transactions out of line with my proposed plan, I sent another message again today. She called me to discuss, acting like she hadn't seen my first message When she called today she said "okay so what do you want me to do?" And I said "I don't want to tell you what to do, I just want to discuss it with you." She suggested we just spend our savings for living expenses for now until she gets her first paycheck. I laid out my plan again, which is the same plan we have used the past 3 1/2 years... Basically we have one account for spending/groceries/etc., one account for bills on autopay/monthly expenses and charge gas to my credit card (she is an auth user), which is paid off from money placed in the bills account. I suggested if we run out of money in the spending account we should discuss what to do at that point. She agreed to this... We'll see how that goes; if she continues to be irresponsible and uncommunicative about it, I plan to take steps to remove her from my credit card, change my direct deposit, etc. I know I need to protect our family money and show her I'm ready to move on with or without her.

I want to ask if she saw OM this weekend, but think it might be best to wait until she gets home this evening or later this week. I'm trying to keep our conversations positive while holding firm to my boundaries. If I can confirm whether she saw OM or not, I'll prob be posting for advice on next steps.

She mentioned her best friend of 10 years called again to tell her she does not support W's decisions and that she doesn't want W in her life as an influence on her future children, dragging her down, etc... Ouch! I exposed the A to this friend and her H before finding DB... W had some nasty things to say about this former best friend.

[UpperCu]

And... 2 hours after agreeing to not use my credit card for anything but gas, she used it again for groceries. Card has been canceled. Sitting at the bank opening a new account to preserve our money for bills/savings.

[Starsky309]

And... 2 hours after agreeing to not use my credit card for anything but gas, she used it again for groceries. Card has been canceled. Sitting at the bank opening a new account to preserve our money for bills/savings.

Good. Long overdue, imho.


Starsky

[Starsky309]

I want to ask if she saw OM this weekend, but think it might be best to wait until she gets home this evening or later this week. I'm trying to keep our conversations positive while holding firm to my boundaries.

UC, people who are in affairs lie -- PERIOD. All of them. 100%. Oh, you might get some "trickle-truth," or an occasional moment of "truth" when they are confronted by hard evidence, but that's about it. I would strongly suggest that you not use the cheater herself as the source of your intel about what the cheater has been up to.


Starsky

[UpperCu]

And commence full on spew....

Her cards all got declined when she was out to a nice dinner on my tab. NOW she is listening.

Never mind I attempted to discuss finances this weekend and this morning, and she agreed to the game plan, which she quickly disregarded. "But you KNEW I was out wine tasting, drivin around, going out to eat, buying $10 water bottles, getting lunch, etc, etc, etc"

She was in tears sobbing over the phone "so far you've acted like you were my friend and I just KNEW it was a matter of time before you turned on me. I know this is what I deserve, but it is a hard pill to swallow. Do I need to call my dad and ask him for money so I can move out??? Do I? DO I?"

Me... "Uhhh that's your call, I've tried to be patient and open about what I want and asked for your input, but I need to protect our money and credit from your negative behavior..."

Her... "I'm going to move out! Oh and the OM wasn't even there this weekend!! It's not like I'm effing some guy, I'm just doing my thing and you were doing your thing this weekend!" Click.

[GoatGal]

Trying to make you the bad guy.

Also part of the script.

Hang in there.

--(G)GGG

[UpperCu]

Emotions are holding the reins for sure.

I text her after she hung up and asked her to reread what I sent her (my very logical and reasonable approach to handling finances and discussing when money runs out). She had more than a few firey words... She ended with saying she is tired of all the ambiguity and wants to talk about what's next when she gets home tonight.

Anyone want to bet on what words will be said?

I'm going to guess she will associate me with the devil and OM as the Virgin Mary.

[GoatGal]

This "discussion" doesn't have to be done on her timeline. In fact, it sounds like you've already stated your boundaries and the consequences for overstepping them.

All that's left is her attempt to bully/guilt/button-push you into backing down. Which is going to go exactly nowhere for either of you.

If you're doing what you believe is right by your values and your commitment to your own well-being and that of your loved ones, then you have nothing to apologize for.
If you are calm and not angry, and are not trying to manipulate her into doing what you want, then you're on the right track.

You are not doing this to "hurt/punish her" although you can bet she will play up this angle. You are taking care of yourself and your finances.

She might not admit it, but I think she will respect that stance.


She's tired of "the ambiguity" and she "wants to talk when she gets home tonight"?

Sounds like she thinks she's calling the shots here, or at least, she wants to be and the fact that you are asserting yourself is p*ssing her off royally.

(Boy, this seems to be a theme this week, or at least it's a lot of what I've been reading. WAW trampling all over the place, acting all entitled. It's p*ssing ME off! )

I would not engage with her while she's angry. Period.

You already stated your case, no need to repeat it.

At most I would say: "I am not attempting to hurt you, however, I will not finance your... (insert whatever you'd like to call it here)"

Then close the discussion and don't engage.

Maybe have somewhere you have to be tonight...?


---(G)GGG

[UpperCu]

Sad part is, W has over $11k sitting in another account so she could have easily transferred over $50 to pay her dinner bill... Zero brain cells utilized today.

[Starsky309]

Trying to make you the bad guy.

Also part of the script.

Hang in there.

--(G)GGG

yep -- BINGO.


Starsky

[Starsky309]

This "discussion" doesn't have to be done on her timeline. In fact, it sounds like you've already stated your boundaries and the consequences for overstepping them.

All that's left is her attempt to bully/guilt/button-push you into backing down. Which is going to go exactly nowhere for either of you.

If you're doing what you believe is right by your values and your commitment to your own well-being and that of your loved ones, then you have nothing to apologize for.
If you are calm and not angry, and are not trying to manipulate her into doing what you want, then you're on the right track.

You are not doing this to "hurt/punish her" although you can bet she will play up this angle. You are taking care of yourself and your finances.

She might not admit it, but I think she will respect that stance.


She's tired of "the ambiguity" and she "wants to talk when she gets home tonight"?

Sounds like she thinks she's calling the shots here, or at least, she wants to be and the fact that you are asserting yourself is p*ssing her off royally.

(Boy, this seems to be a theme this week, or at least it's a lot of what I've been reading. WAW trampling all over the place, acting all entitled. It's p*ssing ME off! )

I would not engage with her while she's angry. Period.

You already stated your case, no need to repeat it.

At most I would say: "I am not attempting to hurt you, however, I will not finance your... (insert whatever you'd like to call it here)"

Then close the discussion and don't engage.

Maybe have somewhere you have to be tonight...?


---(G)GGG

All of this ^^^, x 10.

[UpperCu]

Oh man, had to share. Saw pic online of W at a brewery this afternoon (so much for wine tasting??) and she had 20 half sized beers lined up ready to chug and she has two thumbs up like "yeah dog I'm gonna get drunk!"

And... that brewery never showed up on my bank statement. Must be where her card was declined.

Starsky, agreed it's been a long time coming.

G - thanks for the insight. Disaster (possibly) averted. I've got a buddy coming over to grill out with me tonight.

[UpperCu]

Well, my friend stayed pretty late and W seemed annoyed and surprised that she wasn't the main event of the night. I went straight to bed after he went home and after I had cleaned the kitchen. (NOT being a slob/lazy is one of my 180s). Like clockwork, she came in to our room to talk about the events of the day... She basically blamed me like you all said she would. A few times I couldn't help but laugh as she stuck to the "script" of blaming me and rewriting history of how she has been "getting better and I just ruined all of her progress towards reconciliation," I'm a total jerk, etc...

It's just sad, but it's almost like she is an affair robot moving through the programmatic emotions and actions prescribed for all affair robots.

Like G predicted, she did eventually respect my stance on protecting family money and credit. She said she likes credit card debt less than I do. While we discussed the embarrassment of the declined cards, I reiterated that I didn't intend to hurt her, but was acting to protect money/credit.

I was done with the convo and was indicating I wanted to just go to sleep, but she continued to talk (I was laying in bed, she was standing at the door...). She volunteered reassurance that she didn't cheat on me this weekend, that OM wasn't at her presentation. Hopefully some new intel from the next few days will reveal the truth of this claim.

I turned the convo to a positive light when I asked details about her presentation and reinforced that she was a good presenter and knew her stuff. She bragged about how she was more confident than the guy before her.

I feel like it's been a productive DBing day.

Only God knows what tomorrow will bring.

[GoatGal]

Well done!

Feels good, doesn't it?

I loved that W was put out that she wasn't the center of attraction.
It's not to be mean; just to assert yourself and demonstrate how your focus is on things besides her and your M.

Having the friend come over was smart. But your W is a determined lady. She was going to have that talk she wanted come hell or high water.

But you handled it well; kept your cool, made your point in a rational way without anger or condemnation.

Sleep well!

---(G)GGG

[sandi2]

"She volunteered reassurance that she didn't cheat on me this weekend, that OM wasn't at her presentation. Hopefully some new intel from the next few days will reveal the truth of this claim."

Did it ever resonate that cancelling the CC had nothing to do with OM/cheating, but that she did not honor the agreemsnt she had just made regarding usage of the card?

[UpperCu]

"She volunteered reassurance that she didn't cheat on me this weekend, that OM wasn't at her presentation. Hopefully some new intel from the next few days will reveal the truth of this claim."

Did it ever resonate that cancelling the CC had nothing to do with OM/cheating, but that she did not honor the agreemsnt she had just made regarding usage of the card?

Honestly, I don't think she was thinking logically enough to understand that connection, although I restated it a couple times. I think it was a pretty clear distinction from my end.

We had another convo last night. I had come home early from work because I was feeling sick. W actually offered to make me dinner and brought it to me in bed! She went to her side of the house to study and a little later i left the house to vote. When I got home she came to the kitchen while I was making myself some tea and she indicated she wanted to talk - asking what I was thinking/feeling about the R, the sitch, and about her.

Over the course of the next hour and a half we discussed holiday plans (which are separate for now) and I reiterated my feelings about how I would be okay regardless of the outcome. She showed frustration about how friends, family, and myself are all acting like she isn't serious when she says she doesn't want to be married. She said she has been feeling this way the past year. I validated her feelings to be real and commented that it doesn't seem like she has actually planned to be single and independent since she still lives with me, is dependent on me financially, and especially after this weekend when she had no access to money because she was only using our emergency savings and my cc. She paused and said yeah, I guess I didn't plan it. I guess I've been saying I want to be independent but I'm not. She wanted to discuss what our plans are for money going forward so she knows she will have access to funds. I simply stated that the money for our bills and emergencies is meant for only those things.

She also asked what I thought about our joint spending acct. I said that I see that as family money and since she is telling me she doesn't want to be part of our family why should she be spending it? Seems like this was all sinking in. She agreed she needs to pay for her own living expenses. I also reminded her within two days of me getting paid, our spending money was already gone and we had not bought groceries yet and I don't get paid for another 10 days. She brought up how I had cc debt before we got married as if that validated her current spending patterns. I kindly apologized for mistakes I made 4-5 years ago and explained that although I've made mistakes in the past I've learned from them and don't want to continue with bad spending patterns. She agreed spending our grocery money on other things was a mistake and also agreed she didn't want more cc debt either.

We talked about vehicles - 4 months ago we bought a new vehicle for her, sold her old car, and paid my truck off. She realizes that if we S she can't afford the payment. Her idea was for me to sell my truck, use the $ to pay off cc's and I would drive her vehicle... I told her I didn't like that idea because I want my truck, not what she has. I reminded her that I was thinking long term when we bought that and now is a bad time to sell it. She said, well then let's sell my car and I'll get something cheaper. I said I don't think that's possible since we just bought it we will be a couple thousand under water. And I don't want to finance another new vehicle loan when my credit is bad due to high cc balances and the recent purchase of her car. She settled that she would either offer to pay half of the payment for her car or ask her parents for a loan (she can't get one since she doesn't have credit or make enough $). I asked if she had talked with her dad about that plan and she said no he hadn't. I doubt he will bail her out if he sees me acting rationally and fighting for our M. He is supportive of us staying together and disappointed by her actions.

I stayed home sick again today. W had her first day on the new job. I got up to send a couple emails and make some phone calls and remembered W had made me dinner, so I reciprocated and made her coffee, packed her lunch and left a note thanking her for making me dinner last night. Hopefully this is seen by her as reinforcing her positive behavior not pursuing...

I've been thinking a lot today and setting R goals as suggested in DR. I had also read about a suggested 90 day plan in Torn Asunder - W's mom sent me that book. So I wrote up a plan for W and my next 100 days. It's evident to me we will be living together for at least that long since W is financially dependent and is planning to be a resident WAW. As far as I can tell from my intel she hasn't made contact with OM and he wasn't there this weekend. W is begging for clarity on finances, and I want to be clear on my core boundaries and be set up well for the future whether we reconcile or not.

Here is my proposed plan:
----
100 day plan

Agree to not talk about separation or divorce, or take actions that would end or hurt our relationship during the 100 days. Once the 100 days is over, either of us can leave if we want to.

Establish budget that will allow:
Us to begin paying down credit cards
W to save for future expenses and contribute to current expenses
H to pursue grad school and new hobbies

W will continue to have no contact with OM

We will each choose one activity we like and the other will participate with us once per week with no complaining. Can change the activity each week or keep it the same.

We won't make major purchases or financial decisions during this time, with the exception of several we already have planned.

Any changes to the plan need to be discussed before action is taken or commitments are made. We will agree to allow 24 hours before making a decision together on any changes.

We will continue to live in the same house and drive the same cars during this time.

----
Your thoughts? Am I piecing too soon? I haven't finished DR/DB books but am working on that today. Hoping the books and you all can help me decide whether or not to propose this plan to W.

[sandi2]

Wait...........aren't the two of you seeing different goals? Did she agree to work on the M during this last conversation with her?

You must finish reading DR now!

[Starsky309]

UP,

Has she actually ASKED you the big "what will it take?" question? Has she SAID she was willing to do piecing with you?

I must have missed that.

Until she does, I do like the civil conversations about financial realities and such you are having (good job!), and I also like the boundaries and agreements you've laid out in your 100-day plan. (However, I would NOT put a # of days on it -- make it more of a "TFN" thing . . . waywards view 100-day deadlines as tacit approval to continue to be wayward for the next 99 days, upon which they will then promise you the earth, moon and stars to let them back into the marriage).

I think you have some real positives going for you. You both obviously still love and care for each other, and your wife seems to be respectful of your boundaries for the most part. I think if you let the natural kicking-in of some of the financial and other "BGPs" things kick in, and maintain your GAL and positive changes, the marriage might just look very attractive to her after only a few months.


Starsky

[MrBond]

"Has she actually ASKED you the big "what will it take?" question? Has she SAID she was willing to do piecing with you?"

This is key. You won't be in Piecing unless the WAS makes a commitment in words and actions that they are willing to do whatever it takes to salvage the M. This also includes complete transparency.

Starsky's got it right.

[UpperCu]

Wait...........aren't the two of you seeing different goals? Did she agree to work on the M during this last conversation with her?

You must finish reading DR now!

I know I am getting ahead of myself... Yes we have different goals right now. She wants to be free and single, I want to be married. No, she hasn't shown any desire to work on the M. I continued reading DR and MWD basically said the same thing you are saying. I am being impatient! I know this is a long road but I'm feeling tired and want to be further along than I am.

UP,

Has she actually ASKED you the big "what will it take?" question? Has she SAID she was willing to do piecing with you?

I must have missed that.

Until she does, I do like the civil conversations about financial realities and such you are having (good job!), and I also like the boundaries and agreements you've laid out in your 100-day plan. (However, I would NOT put a # of days on it -- make it more of a "TFN" thing . . . waywards view 100-day deadlines as tacit approval to continue to be wayward for the next 99 days, upon which they will then promise you the earth, moon and stars to let them back into the marriage).

I think you have some real positives going for you. You both obviously still love and care for each other, and your wife seems to be respectful of your boundaries for the most part. I think if you let the natural kicking-in of some of the financial and other "BGPs" things kick in, and maintain your GAL and positive changes, the marriage might just look very attractive to her after only a few months.


Starsky

No, she hasn't asked the "what would it take" question. She doesn't even want to be married at this point. I do see positive signs and effort on her end to connect with me, reassure me A is over, but she is certainly not ready for piecing yet. Im feeling impatient and annoyed that I have to change. Limbo is getting old and I feel like my PMA is at an all time low right now... Her weeks and weeks of negative words about our M is multiplying in my head right now. Others are telling me I've been going well, to stay the course, but I feel like I just want to shove her out the door and be done with this.

I'm struggling with 180s. A big one is letting her figure stuff out on her own. I always want to help her figure stuff out, which doesn't allow her to grow and experience her "BGP" lessons. Please pray for me to let go of control.

Waaa waaa. I know I'm acting like a baby right now! I know what I am supposed to do but I have a bad attitude and don't want to do it.

[Starsky309]

Waaa waaa. I know I'm acting like a baby right now! I know what I am supposed to do but I have a bad attitude and don't want to do it.

That would be correct. At least you recognize it.


Look, until she actually WANTS back into the marriage, laying "100-day Plans" in front of her and such is only going to SMOTHER her, chase her away, and TURN HER OFF. Keep up your changes, be mysterious and distant (but civil and courteous when you ARE interacting with her), and stop trying to pull up the carrots before they're ripe!!! Every time you do, it's a setback.

Sometimes you sound like you're 27 going on 17. Time to be 27 going on 37, put on your BBBs (Big-Boy Britches) and do the work, U.C. There *are* no shortcuts.


Starsky

[Sotto]

Good advice from Starsky as usual. I would just add - at times when I have really felt fed up and like saying 'that's it!' I just do nothing for a bit - take a bit of time off. Try to stop thinking about it all so much, spend some time with friends, do something nice etc...

I figure it will all be waiting for me again when I'm ready to pick up the baton again!

[sandi2]

Im feeling impatient and annoyed that I have to change

Why are you annoyed that you have to change? The change should not be used to win her back. If that is your motivation, then it causes you to have expectations in her. When she doesn't respond the way you thought she should, you feel there's no point to change.

I think this is an issue in yourself you need to examine. The changes are to make you a better/improved person. That is for your good! Why does it make you annoyed? If you don't think you should have to change, then don't. B/c you won't stick to any changes with this kind of attitude. Maybe that is what you need to deal with now.

[UpperCu]

Waaa waaa. I know I'm acting like a baby right now! I know what I am supposed to do but I have a bad attitude and don't want to do it.

That would be correct. At least you recognize it.


Look, until she actually WANTS back into the marriage, laying "100-day Plans" in front of her and such is only going to SMOTHER her, chase her away, and TURN HER OFF. Keep up your changes, be mysterious and distant (but civil and courteous when you ARE interacting with her), and stop trying to pull up the carrots before they're ripe!!! Every time you do, it's a setback.

Sometimes you sound like you're 27 going on 17. Time to be 27 going on 37, put on your BBBs (Big-Boy Britches) and do the work, U.C. There *are* no shortcuts.


Starsky

Thanks Starsky. I know I need to hear all that. And thank you Sandi. I've taken a step back because I know my bad attitude needs to change. Past few days I've kept my distance and have not pursued. We've had a couple convos this weekend which she initiated (normally we talk when I come from being out and she is on her end of the house and hears me in the kitchen, she will come in and linger and ask how I am and what I've been up to). She has confided in me that she is frustrated at her former best friend who has closed the door on their friendship because of the A and that my W has said she doesn't want to be married any more. She also has confided in me about being upset at her mom who continues to pressure her to change and says she is praying for a miracle. My W says she is shocked at how people who are "Christians" have rejected her but says she is impressed at how I've shown her Christ's love throughout the sitch. She said "if I choose to go back down the christian road I would make it my mission to change that image."

She reassured me she still wants to "not" be married like she has also said in almost of our convos. She says she doesn't want to give me false hope. I have told her I don't agree with her mom that a "miracle" will revert everything back to normal. I told her I don't think her mom or most of our friends understand our R or our sitch, and don't have experience dealing with what were going through and that R's are just hard work. The thought a miracle could fix everything isn't even logical.

She asked if I've mourned our relationship. I was surprised to hear her ask that... And said I guess I've mourned what I thought we had before but said I know it's not like we can wave a magic wand to go back there. I asked her if she had mourned it - she said she misses parts of it, that she thinks we had a good R. That she misses things like giving each other foot rubs. I chuckled with her about that.

Last night we had a good interaction and I was telling stories and we were both laughing hysterically at one point. She said "thanks for being my friend through all this" at one point.

At the same time, she talked about what others would think and say when she "starts the separation process." She talks as if she is planning to separate and proceed with D, but also says she doesn't see why others are upset at her actions to not be married when "no decisions have been made."

She again expressed remorse and says she feels bad that she sunk so low to have an A while married. At one point I told her how the betrayal was hurtful and that although it was hurtful I think it is possible to overcome an A in a marriage. I told her I was serious about my commitment to our marriage, but felt I had to set boundaries to define what our marriage is and preserve the sanctity of marriage, which she has respected for the most part. She agreed the A could be overcome, but said she doesn't see how a M could work without two people committed to it and she can't be that person right now. She actually said at one point she is weighing the cost of S and D.

[UpperCu]

So I've been thinking more about where my sitch is at and assessing my plan through the end of the year. I feel like I need to change tactics to address some negative behaviors my W has embraced.

We have been in somewhat of a holding pattern the past few weeks of me not pursuing and W initiating conversations. W seems to be softening back up to our R somewhat, recalling the good times of our R, and shows more remorse each week.

However she is repeatedly telling me that while no decisions have been made, she intends to separate and does not want to be married. It seems like she feels there is a need to hold the threat of D over my head as a way to keep me from having hope in our R and any hope in her. At the same time she is also saying she appreciates how kind I've been throughout the sitch so far but she isn't holding her breath because she thinks this is just a ploy to get her back and my kindness to her will dissipate once she starts the separation/divorce process.

On the financial front, W started her new part time job last week. She is already making plans to take unpaid time off for other trips and the holidays. Right now she is spending her own $ in the form of racking up a cc balance in her name, and the way the budget numbers look to me with her limited hours worked and her expensive upcoming holiday plans, she will not begin to be able to survive on her own financially until February/March. Unless she uses loan money and/or taps her daddy for help. She has always been fearful to use borrowed money to live off of and I doubt my father in law will be very supportive of her financially if he thinks I am not being a total jerk. He is angry at her and in disbelief about the sitch as much as anyone.

Her work and money plans sound to me like a commitment on her part to not face reality and live in limbo land at our home for the next 3 months or longer. No action on my part would enable that.

Intel shows W has, so far, maintained NC with OM but that she is daily monitoring OM and his GF's online profiles. I see this as meaning one or a combination of several things: she is fantasizing about her A with OM and reliving it in her mind, or she is waiting for OM to make a move to break up with his GF so W and OM can take their R to the next level, or she sees his GF as her competition and is comparing herself to the OW, or she is paranoid one of the two will expose the A potentially hurting W's career and also creating new drama for W in the professional world.

Any way I attempt to rationalize this behavior, I arrive at the conclusion that her intentions are purely selfish and harmful to our M. To me it seems she is keeping the fantasy of the A and the deception alive, while telling me and the world it's all over. For all I know she may have made a plan with OM to just put their R on hold for awhile (there has been no NC letter or phone call with me in the loop). My intel has also shown several instances where W was looking up plane tix from our town to OM's hometown (I assume for a holiday visit??) along with other driving directions to measure the distance to OM's city from potential cities she could live/work.

I have NOT confronted W about her "one way online stalking" and apparent travel dreams, at least not since within a few days after DDay, but I have an issue with it and feel like it needs to stop. Obsessive stalking/fantasizing is still a form of "contact" in my book which violates one of my core boundaries.

I feel like I've built a positive rapport and environment where W is open to talking with me and she has a positive view of me and our R right now so I want to maintain that, but I feel like more boundaries are necessary to stop the cake eating and limbo. I'm really not okay with being the financier of a boarding house for the wayward.

Does anyone have any creative ideas on how I can change tactics to work towards ending these behaviors?

Starsky, I know there are no shortcuts but I know you took a hardline approach against ongoing deception and disrespect in your sitch. I feel like my W is resting too easily right now and holding the reins too much. I think she needs a wake up call to reality and to know that I'm not playing games. I don't want to show my cards too soon, but I have mounting evidence to support her actions I've outlined. I've read where you had to show your hand at times to push things over the edge.

[UpperCu]

BGPs are slowly kicking in for W I think.

W had girls night Monday and stayed out until midnight. She worked Tuesday and when I got home after work she was taking a nap. Haven't seen her napping in awhile!

I made myself some dinner last night and W came to the kitchen while I was eating. I offered her food and she gladly sat down and scarfed food down as if she hadn't eaten all day.

W was planning on making a big purchase for some work related equipment, which I thought she had already ordered, but it turns out she delayed the purchase due to concerns about money and the uncertainty of the future.

Later in the evening I brought her a couple bills of hers that were in my name and asked her to pay them. One ironically was for toll fees for traveling to see OM a couple months ago... The other was for an insurance policy she had on my cc which was set to auto renew annually. When I asked if she had money to pay it she snapped "I don't have any cash!!! I'm using my own credit card for everything! This is insurance for my life and I cant just let it lapse!" I calmly explained that I wasn't questioning the need for the insurance, but just where the money was coming from. I backed off since old Upper would allow her sharp responses like this to bring me up to level 10 and fight.

Money is obviously a touchy subject for her.

[UpperCu]

I guess I'm in a new type of holding pattern waiting for the BGPs to do their work. I know that takes time, but does anyone have advice on how much pressure I should put on her to act on what she is telling me she wants (to be financially independent, unmarried, move out, get a cheaper car)? She is basically living on my dime and her cc right now. Or should I just back off and watch what happens for now?

[Starsky309]

I would never be the one to initiate divorce, unless I was the one that wanted one (or felt I had explored every other option). But for the FINANCIAL stuff, I think the-sooner-the-better when it comes to letting a wayward wife put their BGPs on.

It goes to the heart of the whole "let them feel what life would be without you" part of DBing, and besides -- it's just plain WISE to firewall your finances to protect yourself from someone in a wayward, entitled mindset in my opinion.


Starsky

[UpperCu]

I don't want a D, but I don't want to be used as a doormat either. I want to show her I'm ready to move on with my life with or without her.

[Wet]

^^^ Listen to Starsky. Her putting bills in your name is just plain wrong. Be careful here, you may have some liability for bills while you both live under the same roof. It may be time to contact an attorney to see what the law is in your state. Good luck.

[UpperCu]

Hi Wet. I'm holding up over 90% of the weight on bills so I don't think I have any legal troubles there. I recently began firewalling assets though as my W was taking liberties with partying on our grocery money.

This evening W and I got home at the same time, she pulled into the driveway first. I was at a friend's house watching football. She asked how I was doing - told her I was good, she wasn't satisfied with my response as if I was being fake. I think my 180s and GAL are starting to concern her as they are making me more distant. Seems like she feels that we don't connect in the same way anymore. She grabbed me by the shoulders and stared me in the eyes and said "how are you REALLY doing?" I shrugged it off and said "I'm okay, not sure what you're talking about." Honestly I feel okay. A few weeks ago I would have hung around in hopes I would hear she had a drastic change of heart about our M, but tonight I felt fine just walking away to do something else.

Later on I spent a few minutes helping her put something together she bought and afterwards she thanked me profusely for the help.

Jefe - that made me think of how your W was going over the top thanking you the other day.

[Jefe]

Right.

[UpperCu]

Sorry for all the long posts, but my W and I will go days without talking and then we have long, serious talks all at once. For the sake of full disclosure, and in hopes that you all can provide insight, it seems that I will be sticking with the LONG posts for now.

We talked today and she stuck with her script that she "feels" like she wants to be unmarried now, and although she will not commit to this as a "decision," it is what she wants "now."

She is clearly plan B-ing me. Since this is the millionth convo where she has brought this up, and 8 weeks after DDay there is little progress towards her actually doing what she keeps saying, I feel that I need to be very clear that I will not wait around and be her plan-B.

I told her that if we divorced I would not talk to her ever again. She seemed teary eyed and argued back that I would HAVE to talk to her at some point since we would have to figure things out with assets/money. I explained I meant after we were D, that I would have no reason to talk with her. That the decisions she has made for her life I cannot stand by. While I do care about her still, and I have heard that some people are able to work through infidelity, that I must live as if the future is uncertain, since it is, and live to protect myself since she is choosing to continue down the same path and say she wants to D me.

I asked her "since being single, free, unmarried, separated, and divorced is what "you want, then what is the next step for you towards that end?" She said her parents would have to get "on board" with her decisions and right now her dad is in disagreement with her. Her mom is being friendly mostly, but she thinks her mom is just holding out for a "miracle" to happen where W would wake up and realize the error in her ways and want to reconcile the M.

She said that after the holidays she thinks her parents will see her side more clearly. I highly doubt that. Knowing her family, they will likely have EXPLOSIVE arguments and all become more deeply settled in their own viewpoints and withdraw from each other. They are a family of debaters, not mediators.

It sounds to me like her "Plan A" is being dependent on her parents, while "Plan B" is being married to me. Yet she is preaching that wanting a D is all about being independent and free (not about OM, for heavens sake). I have doubt that she is being completely truthful about NC with OM, and am seeking to find the truth here.

She clearly is not thinking logically. At one point she even said that... I asked her what her general feelings were about herself, me, the sitch. She said her general feeling right now is one of Anxiety. She said "I don't know how I will pay my student loans and bills in 6 months, and that worries me, but am I supposed to let logic and finances influence my decisions? I know I am being selfish, but at least I am being open and honest about my feelings of wanting to be unmarried right now." I acknowledged what she said and said I agree, I don't think she is thinking logically.

She also asked "where do YOU think this is going?" I explained that while I do not know what will happen since I do hear what she is saying her feelings are, and that while I did not want this for our M, I know I need to distance myself from the negative trajectory where her life is headed. I said that the lies she has told and decisions she has made are harmful to our M and to myself and that I thought it was necessary to protect what our M stands for, along with what the principles of M stand for in general for my own sake and that of any future R I am in. I acknowledged that she has shown respect by ending the PA, ending contact with OM (as far as I am aware...), getting a job to begin to contribute financially. And while she has done these things out of respect, the trajectory of her life is still headed in the same direction which started us down this road, and I must continue to protect myself from her and her decisions. I told her that while she has told me the A is over and she has not contacted OM, that there is not full transparency and I do not actually know what was said to OM to end the A since I was not involved at all. She asked "what did you want to have a pow wow with the three of us??" I said "No, I never want to see him again, but that communication in the form of a letter or email, that I was aware of, would give me clarity of what she actually had said to OM and provide solid confirmation that your R with him is over." She told me that it "wasn't like that - they didn't have a R, it was just a one night stand... that happened multiple times. That they couldn't have a R because he has lots of issues he needs to work out and neither of them are available since she has a H and he has a GF."

I verified that minutes before this convo she had just looked up both OM and his GF on Facebook. She is clearly deceiving me by saying there is nothing there. She often looks up travel itineraries to his town from places she might work/travel to.

I called her out for being untruthful by saying "I don't have ANY MONEY" while she has $10k+ in a checking account from loan money she took out. She said "well I see that as school money, since it is a loan the Federal Gov't gave me for school, it's not for living expenses. I haven't been buying clothes and stuff!" (this is a blatant lie as I found receipts from large purchases she made recently for a $150+ pair of sunglasses and $100 of clothes purchased with cash she had w/d from her account with student loan money in it...) I said "I am not disagreeing with the purpose of your loan money, and agree it is your choice how to spend it, but the fact is that you are saying you don't have any money when you actually do. You have over $10k in the bank. You are saying a lot of things right now and not acting on them. Everything you are saying now is just that, just mere words."

She obviously heard what I was saying, as she immediately proceeded to put on her BGPs by:
1) paying the traffic bill I asked her to pay earlier this week
2) completing and mailing a form for a side job she found
3) going out to have the oil changed in her car (her oil light has been on for a few weeks)
4) and buying some work related equipment she has been postponing purchasing for over a year (she had money set aside for this and determined recently she needed to hold out with this big purchase since she is planning to divorce me)

She even called me twice within a 30 minute time period asking for help on a couple of these things. Ha!

[Sotto]

Hi Uppercut

Sorry not to have anything useful to say....but this quote made me smile...

"it was just a one night stand... that happened multiple times." - priceless!!

:-)

[UpperCu]

My wife came home at 4:30am last night.

No respect.

[UpperCu]

We had a big convo tonight...

Tonight I called out my W for continuing to lie to me. I jumped on the computer to pull something up while she was in the bathroom. She didn't have a chance to delete anything or cover her tracks and she had Facebook up and was JUST looking up OM and his GF. I asked what she was doing looking him up since she has been telling me she is over him and he is out of the picture. She attempted to play it down as if it was harmless and since she wants to S it doesn't matter anyway who she looks up...

I told her this was deceitful and disrespectful as she is continuing this behavior in our house, using resources I paid for, etc. I am DONE with being lied to and disrespected every day.

She offered her phone for me to look through as proof she was being honest and had not contacted OM. I obliged and before looking I asked if OM's phone # was on there. She said "No" and I quickly found it hidden under a different name.

The convo calmed down and we wound up talking for several hours. I kept my composure throughout even though she attacked fiercely several times.

At one point she asked "what do you need from me right now?" and I said "the truth. just tell me the truth. I don't care if it is what you think I want to hear or frankly what it is, but I am tired of being disrespected and lied to every day." She conceded that was reasonable and proceeded to tell me many things... I asked her what she wanted from me and she said "you have been amazing throughout all of this. you have not blown up at me, you have been there to talk with me when I need someone, even though this is hurtful to you, and you are the person I am hurting the most, you are there for me."

She revealed to me why she was out until 4:30am last night... she was at a strip club and even got a lap dance from one of the strippers. WTF!!!

She also told me she bought a 2nd cell phone to contact OM recently but never followed through since she thought it didn't make sense to contact him right now.

W said the A has opened up what her sexuality means to her, where she previously had only had sex with one person (me), sex means something different now that she has had sex with two people.

She told me more details about the A and that the R with OM had ended with him saying he wouldn't contact her, but she could contact him if she wanted to. So she left it open ended with him. No wonder she is where she is at emotionally, she has simply put the A on "hold" and did not actually end it.

We proceeded to discuss separation and came up with a budget through the end of the year that would allow W to begin to pay towards expenses and allow her to move out of the house in January. We also discussed all of our major assets and who would get what. I will certainly not sign anything without review by an attorney, but we have settled on what I think is a reasonably fair plan for splitting assets and debt.

W had a few moments in this convo where she broke down in tears:

We discussed who would get the pets and we both agreed I would need to keep them since her career requires her to travel often. Also she brought up the idea of selling her diamond engagement ring. She stopped for a few moments and broke down in tears saying this was all coming to her in waves. The ring ended up on the list of items to sell...

I think W got the message I was sending: I am not your plan B, you are going down a path I am not okay with, I did not want any of this but I feel that I need to protect myself from who you have become. While I am your friend, I do not support the direction your life is headed and must separate myself from your dangerous and disrespectful behavior. I am ready for my life to get better.

[Starsky309]

UC,

You have handled this very well. Kudos and much respect.

But you guys sure do TALK A LOT. Your positions and boundaries are clear, and well-stated. It's time now for your ACTIONS to speak for you, and not 10,000-word diatribes.

Lead.


Starsky

[twinmom]

UC,

You have handled this very well. Kudos and much respect.

But you guys sure do TALK A LOT. Your positions and boundaries are clear, and well-stated. It's time now for your ACTIONS to speak for you, and not 10,000-word diatribes.

Lead.



^^^^^^^^ this! It's time to act not talk.


Starsky

[UpperCu]

After we talked, W spent much of the evening looking up pics of OM and his GF, one of the things I asked her not to do while residing in our home. She spent a good deal of time also deleting pics of me, us together, my family, etc. on her Facebook. I think that is very petty, but it is indicative of her state of mind right now.

Starsky, you're right, words need to be backed up by actions at this point. I've read up on your sitch and see similarities between the stubbornness, vanity, blatant disrespect, etc of your W and mine. We've had some SSM issues as well. I'm feeling a level of frustration and being OVER the lies and disrespect that seems similar to what you may have been feeling when you filed.

I am weighing the decision between waiting another 45 days to begin S or filing for a "divorce from bed and board" to have W ejected from our home. In my state that seems to be a viable option. Would like to get her out of the house ASAP as the woman I married is gone. I am sick of the lies, 4:30am nights, and blatant disrespect.

In my state I also apparently have the ability to sue OM for "alienation of affection."

Have an appointment with an attorney tomorrow afternoon to discuss options. Hoping to learn a lot from that meeting.

[Starsky309]

Good deal, UC. You are to be commended for your thoroughness and ability to plan during some very difficult times, emotionally.

Not sure if these are "first consult is free" or not, but it wouldn't hurt to take 2-3 such meetings if you can.


Starsky

[UpperCu]

Consultation with attorney went well. I'm very glad I went and have a good idea of my options and what leverage i have for asset/debt distribution.

Attorney is certainly not a DBer, but has personal experience with WAW and infidelity. Got 2 hours of convo for price of 1 hour.

At church, will check back in later.

[Starsky309]

Excellent. Pray for WISDOM, DISCERNMENT and CLARITY. All three will serve you well.


Starsky

[Jefe]

I'll be praying for you UC and for those three things as well.

[UpperCu]

Was hard to focus in church. My brain was jam packed trying to play out all the scenarios and digest the attorney's advice.

Thanks for the direction Starsky and prayers Jefe. I have knowledge now and you are right; wisdom, discernment, and clarity are much needed to turn knowledge into decisive and meaningful action.

My FIL was texting me asking about travel plans for Thanksgiving. We wound up talking on the phone for an hour this evening. W was planning to visit her family for Thanksgiving and apparently cancelled those plans today after an argument with her mother. I will be leaving town to visit my family and he seemed to suspect that since I was going to be gone that W was planning an escapade with OM... He is probably right on that.

I would be angry, but she is choosing to go down this self destructive path and I feel like that really is not my problem anymore. What is my problem is that I don't want her and OM hooking up in my house, or W clearing out all our possessions in my absence.

Only plan I can think of is to STAY in town to guard against the wayward one. I am willing to rearrange my holiday plans, which I can do at no cost, and some friends have invited me over for Thanksgiving already. I'm open to suggestions.

FIL also asked what I perceived of W's "mental state." I told him it seems that she has an alien brain. She is a completely different person. He agreed and said she is saying crazy things to him and MIL. MIL is getting tired of daily convos with W since she does not agree with W and W feels like she is entitled to her parents accepting her new way of life.

He said he is glad they are out of state because it is harder for her to continue down the path she is on since she can't just move in with them. Although he loves her, he thinks she needs this to be difficult. I couldn't agree more.

[Sotto]

Hi Uppercut

In terms of Thanksgiving, my feeling is that you should arrange whatever plans you will enjoy the most. Not ones that are defined by what your W may or may not be doing. I think if she wants to be wayward, she will be wayward whatever you might do.

I think the issue of protecting your house and possessions is a different thing, and I don't know on this one. How concerned are you that she might do something as dramatic as take all of your stuff? Maybe others on the forum might have some wise advice in this area....

[UpperCu]

Another option, attorney can write a letter to W to shake her tree a bit. If I get that in her hands prior to my departure that may serve as my "insurance policy" against her inviting OM over or clearing out the home. It will probably cost another $250. Insurance isn't free I guess.

[Starsky309]

I will be leaving town to visit my family and he seemed to suspect that since I was going to be gone that W was planning an escapade with OM... He is probably right on that.

I would be angry, but she is choosing to go down this self destructive path and I feel like that really is not my problem anymore. What is my problem is that I don't want her and OM hooking up in my house, or W clearing out all our possessions in my absence.

Only plan I can think of is to STAY in town to guard against the wayward one. I am willing to rearrange my holiday plans, which I can do at no cost, and some friends have invited me over for Thanksgiving already. I'm open to suggestions.

I'd hate to see you change your plans, just to respond to her. But then again I'm a BIG "affairus interruptus" guy, too, and while you can't STOP them from continuing their affair, there's certainly nothing that says you can't occasionally make it DIFFICULT for them!

If it were me . . .

I would first announce to her that you've changed your plans and you'll be staying home. If she asks you why, be mysterious and just say something like "Things changed; this works better for me now" or something similar.

Then, I WOULD leave, as originally planned. Give her very little notice for this -- one day tops or even same-day (you have no kids involved, so you can do this). Again, when asked, say "something came up," and no details.

Then, I would -- daily -- come up with some plausible reason why you might be coming home suddenly. (something at work? feigned distress with your own family, and you may just wanna head home after all? other??)

The idea is that you don't have to actually BE home to interrupt her hook-up. You only have to have the CREDIBLE THREAT of suddenly being home.


Starsky

[Starsky309]

Another option, attorney can write a letter to W to shake her tree a bit. If I get that in her hands prior to my departure that may serve as my "insurance policy" against her inviting OM over or clearing out the home. It will probably cost another $250. Insurance isn't free I guess.

Meh. I'd rather spend the $250 on wine and good cigars.

[zew]

Arturo Fuente classic Hemmingway #1. (maduro if you can find 'em) or a Partagas 6-8-6.

[UpperCu]

I will be leaving town to visit my family and he seemed to suspect that since I was going to be gone that W was planning an escapade with OM... He is probably right on that.

I would be angry, but she is choosing to go down this self destructive path and I feel like that really is not my problem anymore. What is my problem is that I don't want her and OM hooking up in my house, or W clearing out all our possessions in my absence.

Only plan I can think of is to STAY in town to guard against the wayward one. I am willing to rearrange my holiday plans, which I can do at no cost, and some friends have invited me over for Thanksgiving already. I'm open to suggestions.

I'd hate to see you change your plans, just to respond to her. But then again I'm a BIG "affairus interruptus" guy, too, and while you can't STOP them from continuing their affair, there's certainly nothing that says you can't occasionally make it DIFFICULT for them!

If it were me . . .

I would first announce to her that you've changed your plans and you'll be staying home. If she asks you why, be mysterious and just say something like "Things changed; this works better for me now" or something similar.

Then, I WOULD leave, as originally planned. Give her very little notice for this -- one day tops or even same-day (you have no kids involved, so you can do this). Again, when asked, say "something came up," and no details.

Then, I would -- daily -- come up with some plausible reason why you might be coming home suddenly. (something at work? feigned distress with your own family, and you may just wanna head home after all? other??)

The idea is that you don't have to actually BE home to interrupt her hook-up. You only have to have the CREDIBLE THREAT of suddenly being home.


Starsky

Yes!! I love a good bluff!

Wheels are turning...I could also tell her I'm staying and give her zero warning I am leaving. Let her think I'm just mysteriously busy, when I'm really out of state.

[Starsky309]

Arturo Fuente classic Hemmingway #1. (maduro if you can find 'em) or a Partagas 6-8-6.

Ahhhh, nice. For me, a Liga Privada No. 9 by Drew Estates, or a Rocky Patel Old World Reserve.

[Starsky309]

I could also tell her I'm staying and give her zero warning I am leaving.

That would work too!

I had some great "affairus interruptus" instances in my own sitch. Like the time I called her on her cellphone when my GPS tracker had her parked in front of OM's house, and said to her only "I hope it's worth it. I know where you are; have fun."

That sure must've deflated his -- oh, nvm!!!