newbie needs help part 5

[25yearsmlc]

Forgot to mention during our conversation I told her she had been a great mom and a good wife. I didn't understand how she could loose those qualities.I thought those were very important to her and I was just dissapointed in her.

I'm betting she heard the criticism and not the compliment, (which was negated by the rest anyway). How'd that work for you? I'm being sincere. I'd like to know how she reacted.

I've never seen a WAS return home, B/C of hearing about how disappointed their LBS is.

I think if you'd only said the first part, it would have had more use for you.

Just my .02

[igit]

25yearsmlc, thanks for the post. She asked me what I wanted her to do. I asked her to take a step back and look at all the good things in her life she has to be great full for before making a lifetime decision. I then left and went to my sister s home for a few hours. I guess I am tired. The impact of thanksgiving and seeing how this has impacted our kids, I just needed to let it out

[igit]

The rest of day was ok. She does know I am frustrated. I just see the impact this has had on kids. I do know she is in a lot of pain. She has had depression her whole life. It's like she wants to leave and then we go out to dinner with kids a couple nights this week and had a good time. Help!

[igit]

We have talked more this past week and spent more time around each other than we have in a long time. She tells me too admit I never loved her. I said I have always loved her. I told her all the things I loved about her, her eyes, smile, compassion,mothering 3 smart kids, etc, etc. I told her what I missed about us,. Anyway I am trying not to be needie, it just so crazy to go through so much together for 19yrs having 3 kids so late in life and to just walk away with out any effort to communicate her unhappiness

[25yearsmlc]

We have talked more this past week and spent more time around each other than we have in a long time.

That^^ is a good thing. Savor it for that, okay? It'll help the PMA when you begin to lose hope.

She tells me too admit I never loved her. I said I have always loved her. I told her all the things I loved about her, her eyes, smile, compassion,mothering 3 smart kids, etc, etc. I told her what I missed about us,.

While people here tend to stress the "Do Not Pursue" mantra, it's not a rule, nor should it be rigidly adhered to, in all cases. Your wife has a history of depression, and it sounds as if self esteem (the disbelief that you "really" love(d) her, for one) is a problem for her as well.

She's NOT the type of person who must be shunned or ignored, except to the extent you must do so to protect your heart. She sounds sincere in her questioning of your love.
I think your answer was mostly great.

If it were me, I'd veer off the looks aspects once you establish that you ARE very attracted to her, b/c we all know looks fade. Everyone's looks, do fade - in time.

No, It's not your job to "make" her feel secure. Don't bother trying b/c you cannot "make/get her" to feel or do something. No one can "make" another person happy or feel good about themselves. Not for long anyhow...

But another person CAN sure harm an ego and certainly there are things you could say that would do her damage. That sure doesn't help you or your cause, at all.
So your words about why you love(d) her are important. I'm glad you see that.


Anyway I am trying not to be needie, it just so crazy to go through so much together for 19yrs having 3 kids so late in life and to just walk away with out any effort to communicate her unhappiness

I doubt she sees it that^^ way. You know she's in pain so She probably feels she is NOT "just walking away" but is painfully tearing herself away from what she believes is holding her back,

And she either has communicated her unhappiness for years (well you certainly knew she was depressed for a long time, so it's not as if her being unhappy shocked you)

or she believes you "should" have known.

Regardless, let's see what is happening now.

Your position, if I understand it enough, is a delicate balancing act between

1) reassuring her that indeed YOUR love for her is real, enduring, and stable,

AND YET

2) You are ALSO showing her that you are going to be a happy fulfilled man living a good life, regardless of what she chooses.

So in effect 3) the loss would be hers, more than yours AND it will be a big loss to her....

however, 4) she can still do a course correction, and forgiveness will be given her if she merely puts in the effort and commitment.

Does this^^ mostly summarize your position/options?

If so, maybe you can jot down some things you know that do Not work, b/c it's often the case that all we can do for you from here, is warn you about what harmed our situations, versus what helped.

I Think I know some things that helped my situation, but I'm not always positive. I am fairly certain of things that harmed my situation so that advice, the things "NOT to do", is easier.

Making her feel more guilt will Not help you, imo. Remorse, morphing into shame - is rarely a good thing for the cause of marriage restoration.

Shame tends to make a person either flee (which most shamed women will choose) AND OR,

it morphs into anger at the 'causer' of the shame, i.e. the LBS...When the WAS reiterates the reasons for leaving, they are cementing them into MORE solidified rationalizations.

Hence my oft repeated line "the more you challenge her choices, the more you force her to defend those choices" (instead of objectively examining them).

I know I saw my h's guilt morph into anger at me more than once. For me, attempts at shaming him backfired big time.

My DB Coach said to avoid asking questions that are designed to make a person defensive. I never consciously did that, but subconsciously I sure did.

So questions like "How could you Do/Say X?----" OR "WHY did..." Are OFF LIMITS.

My DB coach said "those^^^ questions will immediately put your WAS on the defense, and that can = putting them on the OFFENSE, fast...and things deteriorate & escalate..."

I found that to be true.

Perhaps Giving your wife something achievable & desirable to live UP to, would be good for her/you.

My DB coach (a true Godsend) gave me the following tips:

1) Never lose your temper in front of the WAS. Leave the anger out of the room.
Otherwise you fuel their negative images of you, and you want to

2) CONTRAST those negatives, with new positives images of you. (180s undermine their negative 'data' about you...or shows that you are no longer that person...

3) Applaud loudly for the 1% of positives you see....(gives them something to live UP to);

4) Listen like a Lover = supportive, validating, attentive. Imagine them discussing a work problem and how you'd support a new friend OR lover in that conversation... (this approach would Not apply to discussions about OM/OWs, but more general topics).

4) IF/WHEN the WAS revises the marital history, and they will, you can use the following approach:

A:)) If the comments reveals they were upset AND you recall at least some validity to their version of events,

You say "I'm so sorry I hurt you. IF I had it all to do over again, there are lots of things I'd do differently." Learn this phrase, process it.

B:)) IF the event described sounds nothing like how you recall it, IF you even recall it,

(no matter what, do Not Deny that it happened. Your memory is not perfect & it's her perspective anyway)...

Anyhow, then YOU can say:

"Wow W/H, that's not how I recall it all, but I'm sorry you were hurt. IF I had it all to do over again, there are lots of things I'd do differently...."

Yes, they are nearly identical phrases (with a few key differences) but if you say them enough, they'll be heard at some point....maybe they'll be believed.

Note that

**Both answers show that YOU get the need for change on Your end. This is HUGE.

AND neither answer escalates or blames. You are not being a doormat either.

I came to believe that my m was likely over, but that the kids and I were going to be fine, anyhow. I came to believe I was a great partner & mom, & that belief radiated from me b/c I "knew" it to be true. It showed. I came to believe I'd be happy, loved and loving again, with someone else IF I chose to.

I believe but cannot prove, that at some point this caught my h's attention. Then, in a non linear way, he began to come around and see me and our married life in a new way.

I followed my DB coaches' advice (more examples or details available if you are interested) about

"Keeping the Road Home, Paved & Smooth", (her words but they resonated with me) and mostly that was done just be being warm and upbeat whenever I did have interactions with my h.

AND by Presenting the life We offered here, a warm sunny (literally & figuratively) life that had love and humor & interest within,

In CONTRAST with - whatever he was creating for himself elsewhere...

I knew he'd lose more than I would thru a divorce. I mostly felt sorry for him, not me. In your situation, I could see you feeling that way down the road. Might be alright to Not hide that...

But the bottom line is that

No WAS returns to a marriage they left....unless.....

UNLESS......they believe the marriage to you, can be better/different than before.


It's Your job to show her that^^ , with action not mere words. Can you think of some ways to do that?

I'm not suggesting anything doormat-ish, OR to overtly pursue her now, but more like some indirect ways of being self reliant, self confident and thus more attractive/attracting. Might be worth your time to ponder that and seek input.

Make sense?

Good luck and do Keep on keeping on...

[igit]

25yearsmlc, thanks for taking the time to give such encouraging insight. I know I have said some things that she would take as trying to shame her. I dont mean that to be the affect but can see that is how's it's perceived.you mentioned giving her something achievable and desirable to live up to? Could you give me an example?
You also mentioned waw will not return to m unless they see marraige would be different. My wife has always been more spiritual and active in church! That is one thing she has ran away from. No church no women bible study anymore. The other morning I asked her why she has avoided church etc. She says she doesn't like the people there! It does break my heart! I have done a big 180 in my life. I have been the spiritual leader of family since this situation started almost a year ago. I have grown closer to church, God, and my spiritual side. Our kids go to a Christian school and our very active in our church. In our conversation the other morning I mentioned that our kids have been watching and it is something they our noticing. I didn't do this to shame her, but I wanted to tell her. I said it is not having a positive impact on any of kids but especially our D12. I told her I was there for our kids while she was in her Affair and protected them from it. Please give me a 2x4! I hate to say things like that to make her feel guilty but I feel like I need to say these things.

[MrBond]

"but I feel like I need to say these things."

And did they bring her back?

[igit]

Mr Bond, she hasn't! I need to ask you what you would do with the following! The kids twin S6s and D12. We had thanksgiving as a family at our home. We were invited to her brothers for desserts. She hasn't spoke to her brother in 6 months or sil in 6 months and we live 10 minutes away. I have kept my relationship with bil. They have 2 kids that are close with our kids. Anyway waw said she would go for desserts and then canceled at last minute. I took kids. My sil told me S6 asked her if she was glad that they had their kids.Other S6 got upset when mom took off to store thanksgiving afternoon to go to store without saying goodbye. His comment was mommy is leaving again very upset. I have tried to protect my kids from all this, it is just getting more difficult as I sense they know something is not rite. D12 is always trying to get waw and I to do things with me. I see her frustration. How did you handle kids situation going through your crisis.

[igit]

Mr Bond one more thing.while at bil.home his wife told me S6 asked her if she was glad that they had 2 daughters. I am super close with S6 and can see he is upset with mom.He asked if he could say thanksgiving prayer before dinner. The kid said an unbelievable prayer about family and thankful for what we all have.

[igit]

25yearsmlc, so wife went out xmas shopping got home for lunch. I was watching fb game in my room. W came in and laid on bed with me and watched game for a while. We ended up down in living room watching game. She sat beside me on couch. I told her I was sorry for some of the things I have said to her over this sitch. She was very sweet and told me it was ok. We held hands for a few minutes. First time since this all began. I told her I would do things alot different if I had to do it over. She was looking in my eyes while I spoke to her. Thanksgiving day during a conversation she asked me what I wanted her to do. I said just take a step back for a while and talk to each other more. So I feel she knows it is up to her and if given the chance I would be different in the future. It's all a matter of re attracting her.