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shodan Offline OP
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http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2496086&#Post2496086

Here is a link to my older post. I highly encourage folks to read it and learn from Starsky's wisdom and experience

What I wrote in my last post:

"Totally great points and love the post. Thank you for sharing. It captures a lot of my feelings and my actions and words with my wife.

But my concern is that I am giving her more opptys to cake eat when she lies on me or when we have fun together. If there were no A, I would agree with you. But with the A in play, it is just cake eating. With that said, I also need to make sure she sees compassion and love at the same time.

She knows that the road back home is paved should she choose to end the A. But, I will and am pursuing a D since to date, she has elected to stay in the A."


Me: 40, W: 40
M: 15, T: 18
D - 10, S - 7
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I guess for me, I had more clarity in that regard. It only felt like "cake-eating" to me when my wife was cheating on me and I didn't know about it. Once I knew, and she KNEW that I knew, and she knew that I wasn't willing to live in an open marriage and although I didn't want a divorce I was starting to move on and I told her "I won't wait forever" . . . it changed the dynamic. I would even reinforce that with "Look, I know all about where you went last nite, and this is all incredibly disrespectful to our marriage and to our family," etc.

So it was all kinda like "look, let's both kut the krap. We both know what's going on right now, and this doesn't work for me. Looks like we've both got some decisions to make."

Did she have contact -- even sex -- with OM dozens of times after that? Yes, I'm sad to say. And while I felt at various times angry, confused, sad, p*ssed, sad, disappointed, disgusted, sad, angry . . . I never felt like it was "cake-eating" anymore, because *I* knew I had a plan, and I knew that plan had everything up to and including divorce on the table, I had separated our finances and put basic boundaries in place.

It was infidelity, for sure -- even adultery. But it was no longer "cake-eating." Because we both knew what the truth was, and what the stakes were, even if we didn't yet know where we would ultimately land.


Starsky


M57 W 57; D30 D28 S24 S20 GD7 GD2 GD1 GD5m GD1m
BD 5/07; W's affair 5/07-8/07

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Starsky, I think the boundaries set remove the "Cake-eating" factor from it.


Me 47 - W 35
M 9 - T 10
2 Daughters - 7 & 9
Discovery of EA- 8/4/14
S - 8/5/15
D mentioned - 9/11/14
R & Piecing - 3/17/15
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shodan Offline OP
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Last night I was out with a friend who was super supportive. He thinks that we will make it because we has such a great relationship in his eyes.

My wife was asleep last night when I got back and I was up early for my flight. This whole process s$cks. I want my family to be together but my W has to recommit to our M. I hope our weekend apart will help figure what she wants. I need out of limbo. Today the pain is pretty bad. My chest hurts and I am just sad.


Me: 40, W: 40
M: 15, T: 18
D - 10, S - 7
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A discovered 7/20/2014 (but denied by W)
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shodan Offline OP
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my response on my other thread...trying to consolidate on to a new one....

quote=shodan]I am confused more than anything else. When my W and I are together, things can be pretty great. We act and look like a marriage couple sans any true affection. She lays on me at night and we sleep very well together.

But my concern is that allowing this to happen will only give her the oppty to stay in her A and have all of her needs met by two men. She has no reason to stop the A. Hence my boundaries: I will not share my W with a third party.

Part of me wants to just give her time to sort out her life. Based on the convos that we have had, she had a lot of bottled up hurt and anger. She just was not happy and admits to never telling me. She had been thinking about asking for a D for a long time. Further, since she is cooling it with the OM (to some extent) part of me wants to give her time and not continue to push for the D and just let it play out.

Here are some of the signs of her cooling it with him:
- she is spending WAY less time in NYC
- when she goes, she has gone on first flights out in the morning or taken the last flight home...she easily could have stayed another night
- I am gone this weekend in FL visiting my parents and my kids are with my MIL...she is alone for two days yet she is home and not in NYC (I have spoken with her a few times this weekend about my mom (she had a massive stroke) and have a good sense for what my W has done this weekend...the OM is not there)
- her text exchange with him implied that she is cooling it

But, she still is in contact with him via phone and text. Even if the PA has now become an EA, the EA still is damaging to our R.

So what do I do? Give her time and be patient OR enforce my boundary that I will not share my W with a third party.
[/quote]


Me: 40, W: 40
M: 15, T: 18
D - 10, S - 7
D announcement 6/7/2014
A discovered 7/20/2014 (but denied by W)
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shodan Offline OP
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Ultimately I am confused...

I believe strongly that my W is moving her PA to an EA (based on my comments above). Although I am pushing for divorce mediation because I do not want to share my W with a third party, I do not want to give up hope. My W has seen changes in me and has commented about them. But she still has a lot of hurt bottled up inside. When we connect, I know she feels the true connection that we always have had. But I also know that my pushing for the D will seem to her like I am trying to control the situation (per usual) rather than letting her move on her own timeline. And therefore, she likely will let the D happen even if she knows it is not the best move for our family.

So the DB method would call for (I think):
- be patient
- give her space
- be fun, be the husband only a fool would leave
- do everything I can to detach and GAL, which will help with the second bullet (give her space).


Do I keep divorce mediation in my back pocket, or does that convey weakness?


Me: 40, W: 40
M: 15, T: 18
D - 10, S - 7
D announcement 6/7/2014
A discovered 7/20/2014 (but denied by W)
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Since I wasn't the one to file, I don't know how it works, but can you keep the process going but slow it down?


M 16 T 17
W moved in w/ AP (OW) 5/14
ILYBNIL 5/14
A discovered 6/14
D papers served via USPS 8/14
Filed my response 9/14
D final 5/15...
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shodan Offline OP
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Yes I absolutely can. She is not looking to push the D. She only mentioned it the one time back in June. What she has said is "I don't know how I feel" which is actually an improvement from June/July when she said "I have no feelings for you."

Today, she texted me some pictures of our living room...she bought a new carpet and some new pillows and rearranged the furniture. I called her to let her know that it looked very nice and to thank her for doing it. We talked for about 30 min about all kinds of topics (not our R). She also mentioned that she wants to refinish our dining room table.

So our life would appear to be moving forward except she is not committed to our M (and has the OM on the side). Only once has she said she is committed to working on our M (when we talked back in August). Right now, her refusal to stop all contact with the OM is based on the fact that she is not sure she wants to work on the M.

That is where I am confused...if I just chill out, act like I don't are about the OM and her and just go about my life in a very fun and friendly way, that may bring her back into the fold. Or it may not. I think she views the D as me controlling her. I know that is a huge issue for her. My dad is SUPER controlling. Most of my convos this weekend with my W have been discussion about how controlling my dad is. She told me that she sees glimmers of it in me and that is why she wants no part of that future.


Me: 40, W: 40
M: 15, T: 18
D - 10, S - 7
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A discovered 7/20/2014 (but denied by W)
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Yeah, but not wanting to be in an open marriage is not being controlling. Some ladies at my church said I was being controlling by telling my wife's parents about her affair. I just don't understand that line of reasoning. I'd say the person breaking the wedding vows and doing their own thing is the one who is exerting inappropriate control over things.


M 16 T 17
W moved in w/ AP (OW) 5/14
ILYBNIL 5/14
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"I think she views the D as me controlling her."

Shodan, the only thing I have to say here is don't mind read. She either has expressed that specifically or she hasn't. In addition, it would only be controlling if it was used as a bluff or ploy to win her back. If you move towards a D because you are truly done with the whole mess. No controlling here, just a life decision being made.


Me 47 - W 35
M 9 - T 10
2 Daughters - 7 & 9
Discovery of EA- 8/4/14
S - 8/5/15
D mentioned - 9/11/14
R & Piecing - 3/17/15
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Fair points. She actually did say that I am always need to do things on my own agenda. She has said that D is a big decision. I said that I agree and that I don't want to do D, but I also cannot share my wife with a third party.


Me: 40, W: 40
M: 15, T: 18
D - 10, S - 7
D announcement 6/7/2014
A discovered 7/20/2014 (but denied by W)
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Originally Posted By: shodan
Fair points. She actually did say that I am always need to do things on my own agenda. She has said that D is a big decision. I said that I agree and that I don't want to do D, but I also cannot share my wife with a third party.


Your position is irreproachable.


M 16 T 17
W moved in w/ AP (OW) 5/14
ILYBNIL 5/14
A discovered 6/14
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shodan Offline OP
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Question...what are others doing to detach/GAL?

Here is my list
- I started guitar lessons a few months ago
- I am going to yoga although my wife is there some of the time
- I meet a friend every Sunday to run and workout
- I am pretty sure that I am going to start crossfit...great opportunity to meet people
-I go out at least one night per week with a friend or after work with colleagues


Any other ideas? I really am looking to meet people and build my circle of friends


Me: 40, W: 40
M: 15, T: 18
D - 10, S - 7
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That reminds me, I have a friend's kid I need to start giving guitar lessons to. That would be good for me, actually.


Me 47 - W 35
M 9 - T 10
2 Daughters - 7 & 9
Discovery of EA- 8/4/14
S - 8/5/15
D mentioned - 9/11/14
R & Piecing - 3/17/15
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Originally Posted By: wmwb123
Yeah, but not wanting to be in an open marriage is not being controlling.


It is to a wayward. It's probably #1 on the Wayward Hit Parade -- "You're too controlling!"

Usually, it just means "It's so controlling of you to not allow me to continue to conduct my affair, unencumbered," or "It's so controlling of you to demand that I end all contact with my OM in order to remain married to you."

Sho, I reaaaalllly wish you would stop focusing on this one phrase, and CERTAINLY would encourage you to not make your DECISIONS based on it. It means literally nothing, in my opinion. It's background noise at best, and it's button-pushing at worst and I suspect it's the latter and I've pointed it out to you before. Your wife KNOWS that this phrase gets to you, and that it gets you to BACK OFF if she plays it.

You have a difficult enough decision to make without THIS white noise entering into it.


Starsky


M57 W 57; D30 D28 S24 S20 GD7 GD2 GD1 GD5m GD1m
BD 5/07; W's affair 5/07-8/07

At the end of every hard-earned day, people gotta find some reason to believe. (Bruce Springsteen)
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Originally Posted By: Starsky
It is to a wayward. It's probably #1 on the Wayward Hit Parade -- "You're too controlling!"

Usually, it just means "It's so controlling of you to not allow me to continue to conduct my affair, unencumbered," or "It's so controlling of you to demand that I end all contact with my OM in order to remain married to you."


Starsky, do you believe that this is founded with the wayward and now they've blow it out of proportion in retaliation or is it just ingrained in the wayward because they've been abducted by aliens? Or does it even freaking matter at this point? I have found the wayward views every single little thing through a controlling lens, I mean everything.


Me 47 - W 35
M 9 - T 10
2 Daughters - 7 & 9
Discovery of EA- 8/4/14
S - 8/5/15
D mentioned - 9/11/14
R & Piecing - 3/17/15
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Not sure I understand your question, Jefe. I'm saying it's fog -- gaslighting. It's right up there (and I know the DB forum doesn't advocate exposure, but) when a betrayed spouse exposes the affair and then the wayward spouse says "Well NOW you've done it! I WAS going to consider reconciling with you, but NOW YOU'VE BLOWN THAT CHANCE!" and of course the dreaded "I love you but I'm not IN love with you."

I'm just trying to (continue to) encourage Shodan to make his decisions based on his own core values, his non-negotiable boundaries, and those things that *HE* genuinely believes he needs to work on and change. Not on what his wife pushes back with while she still hasn't ended her affair, because that's going to be a deflection at best and gaslighting at worst.

Furthermore, even IF Shodan believes he has been too controlling at other times in the past in their marriage, it STILL doesn't mean that he should necessarily waver on his current non-negotiable boundaries right now. "I'm not willing to live in an open marriage" is certainly a reasonable boundary and position to take, and if his wife refuses to end her affair in light of that, then Shodan clearly has a decision to make. Is allowing the consequence of that boundary (up to and including divorce) to kick in "controlling?" Or is he simply saying "Look, I told you what I could and couldn't abide, and you either didn't take me seriously or you were unwilling to end your affair, but either way I can't live like that."

Put more simply, I believe there is a time where one HAS to control the process that could potentially break up one's family. His wife clearly doesn't have their marriage's best interests at heart right now, confused or not, so that leaves Shodan to be the leader. And sometimes leaders have to "control."


Starsky


M57 W 57; D30 D28 S24 S20 GD7 GD2 GD1 GD5m GD1m
BD 5/07; W's affair 5/07-8/07

At the end of every hard-earned day, people gotta find some reason to believe. (Bruce Springsteen)
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My question was framed more in the sense of did our (the LBS) controlling get us here in the first place (Speaking of my own situation mostly) and the WAS's behaviour is just an over reaction to that or is it just a mental defect with all WAS's.

But you took the answer in a whole other direction that makes that question moot.


Me 47 - W 35
M 9 - T 10
2 Daughters - 7 & 9
Discovery of EA- 8/4/14
S - 8/5/15
D mentioned - 9/11/14
R & Piecing - 3/17/15
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I do think that the decision to medicate by having an affair can be fueled by a sense of resentment and entitlement from an over-controlling marriage, yes. Sort of the ultimate "F-you!" statement of "you can't control me!"


M57 W 57; D30 D28 S24 S20 GD7 GD2 GD1 GD5m GD1m
BD 5/07; W's affair 5/07-8/07

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I agree with Starsky ... (I know .. .shocker as he is on point with these things) ... but Shodan ... seriously .. even in your posts you have more than stated you will not share your W with a third party. All I can hear now is how bruised your ego is .. and its not going to heal by beating that horse anylonger.

Try a 180 ... dont mention it for a week, let that go, its not the root cause of why you are here among us its just a side effect of it. IF you were giving her what she needs .. she would not have gone elsewhere ... not saying what she did is right .. but like I said before .. SHE needs to end it, otherwise just add it into the things she resents about you and she will move on regardless. You need to become the first choice, and it does appear .. (outside looking in) that she is rethinking. A woman who was going to jet would not be redecorating your house, try filling her love bucket with her LL (Have you read the 5LL .. its worth a read if not for her .. but for yourself so you can understand things better).
I get bitter and angry as I wrestle with it too ... did all weekend and decided an act of love this morning just to see what happens ... do a 180, be adventurous .. get crazy ... be you for a bit. Let this thing slow cook .. all great things take time .. dont rush it here ... just relax and let that Third party thing go for a minute ... you will have plenty of pain and things to work through with that once she does commit ... another thing that SHE must choose ... you trying to control it and force her will not give you the results you want if you give it some serious thought.


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shodan Offline OP
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Thank you to everyone for their feedback and input. I was out all day with my kids and also did spend a few hours with my W in the morning yesterday. Per usual, we had fun.

I know my W is confused. She has said this to me a few times. (I don't know how I feel") What seems to be working is showing her my good side, my fun side, etc. The only reason that I keep coming back to the "the A has to end mindset" is I know that her A will keep her from having any romantic feelings for me. And as long as she lacks these feelings, my guess is she will not want to come back to our M. She alluded to this before when she said "what do people do, just stay in an unhappy marriage for their kids."

I also agree with CaliGuy that she needs to come to this decision on her own. I cannot force or control it.

What I do is the question of the day (or year!)?


Me: 40, W: 40
M: 15, T: 18
D - 10, S - 7
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A discovered 7/20/2014 (but denied by W)
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On more thing to add...last night my W brought up some issues and said she was confused and that my pushing for D mediation shows that I want a D. I did not want to raise the OM again so I just said "like you I am confused as well. I want to work on our M and keep our family together." She also admitted to having fun with me lately as well.


Me: 40, W: 40
M: 15, T: 18
D - 10, S - 7
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A discovered 7/20/2014 (but denied by W)
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Originally Posted By: shodan
On more thing to add...last night my W brought up some issues and said she was confused and that my pushing for D mediation shows that I want a D.


I would have said "No, that's not what I ever wanted." And left it at that. Or the ol' "Yes, this is very hard on all of us."

ARE you really confused, Shodan, or are you just afraid? I think it's an important question, and you don't even have to answer it here. But this is going to be hard enough WHICHEVER way you choose, if you don't have the courage of your convictions that you're at least doing the right thing.

Pray for wisdom; pray for CLARITY. I always found that helps.


Starsky


M57 W 57; D30 D28 S24 S20 GD7 GD2 GD1 GD5m GD1m
BD 5/07; W's affair 5/07-8/07

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I responded to her that I didn't want our M to end and that D is notice first choice.

My take is this...she has noticed the changes and sees the good in our M. But she loves the OM and does not want to lose him especially while she does not have those same feelings for me. This is not mind reading, this is based on her actions and her words.

I am scared, I am scared of making the wrong decision and breaking up my M.


Me: 40, W: 40
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Originally Posted By: shodan


I am scared, I am scared of making the wrong decision and breaking up my M.



Make no mistake, if your marriage ends it will be your wife' stubborn refusal to at least cut off her contact with her OM and WORK at the marriage with you.

There, I said it: I don' think she's "confused" at all; I think she's STUBBORN, and she can't make up her mind. Neither can you, lol, but at least you are faithful and trying to make a go of this!

If your wife ended all contact with her affair boyfriend and came back and worked on the marriage with you, exclusively . . . with the help of a good MC trained in dealing with infidelity . . . and you guys maybe did a Retrouvaile weekend or something along the way . . . and if after say a year her feelings for you weren't returning and/or she was still unhappy in the marriage . . . then fine, end it. The right way.

To do what she's doing now is gutless, it's deceitful and it's incredibly disrespectful, I'm sorry. mad


Starsky


M57 W 57; D30 D28 S24 S20 GD7 GD2 GD1 GD5m GD1m
BD 5/07; W's affair 5/07-8/07

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I agree. I actually said to my W last night (when she brought this stuff up) that this will take a leap of faith on both our sides, but if we want to work on our M, we need to be fully committed. We can try for 6 months or a year, and if things are not better, at least we will know that we tried. But it starts with commitment, not having one foot in and one foot out of the door. Again, I am trying to avoid talking about the A and the OM since that just leads to more arguing and her stating that nothing happened.

I also agree that she is being stubborn. Stubborn enough to allow the D to happen in order to at least prove that we did not follow my agenda. Hence why I think I need to just try to be patient.

I found this link from Michele that she wrote for the Huffington Post. In it she says that she wrote it to send to your spouse if they are having an EA. I know my wife is having a PA, but she seems to be coming around to admitting it is an EA, although she just contends they are SUPER close friends and understand each other.

http://huff.to/WqpnL2

I was not going to send it, but I am tempted to.


Me: 40, W: 40
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Don't. You can't teach a wayward. The most you can do is hope to land a few "truth darts" along the way.


M57 W 57; D30 D28 S24 S20 GD7 GD2 GD1 GD5m GD1m
BD 5/07; W's affair 5/07-8/07

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That is what I thought.

What gives me some hope is that she is confused and has stated that to me. She says "I don't know what I want", which is very different from "I have no feelings for you" and "I want a divorce."

I see why 25yrs is advocating more for "be patient, show compassion and let her figure out her way out of this mess". But I also see the point of a hard line.

Another somewhat hopeful point...during our discussion last night (again she initiated it), she commented that she did not know what to do. I said that we could start with eliminating love busters as mentioned in the 5LL book. She said that she had read this book and really liked the analogy of adding or decreasing coins from your love bucket. I would not think she would read that is she was dead set on leaving. I think it is her addition to the OM that is holding her back. I Just don't know how or when she will reach rock bottom.


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Originally Posted By: shodan
I Just don't know how or when she will reach rock bottom.



With two different men, each meeting one or more of her emotional, physical and security needs, I don't either.


M57 W 57; D30 D28 S24 S20 GD7 GD2 GD1 GD5m GD1m
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Originally Posted By: shodan


I see why 25yrs is advocating more for "be patient, show compassion and let her figure out her way out of this mess".



This may shock you, but I'm actually not even totally against this approach. ^^^ Provided (and this is a key distinction) you separate yourself and set up strong boundaries while she's figurin'.

MLC'ers do this all the time -- "stand" for their marriages (even the face of infidelity) -- but it can only be done if you remove yourself from the situation. You are way too emotional, introspective and caring of a guy to have this under your nose every day. It'll eat at your gut and literally make you sick.

It's not my approach, nor the one that I observe is most effective, but it can be done.


Starsky


M57 W 57; D30 D28 S24 S20 GD7 GD2 GD1 GD5m GD1m
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Thanks Starksy. I will tell you that I am having a pretty cr*ppy day. My chest hurts, my heart is aching. Uggh. I feel my marriage falling a part and there is nothing that I can do about it. I want to work on it but It does not matter what I want. My W has to want it as well. This really s*cks.


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I feel you, brother. Why not just Be Still. Try 25yrs logic for a little while and let God work in this. There's always time after that to follow a more aggressive Starsky plan or you can go scorched earth. Whatever you choose, being still right now won't cost you much.


Me 47 - W 35
M 9 - T 10
2 Daughters - 7 & 9
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What put me in the dumps is a convo I had with my W yesterday. She reiterated that she has no feelings for me and is waiting for those feelings to come back before she wants to commit to working on our M. At the same time, she does not want to D (yet) because she knows that is a huge decision that will impact our kids. In her words, limbo seems like the best option for now. Of course, I know that her A is what is potentially blocking any feelings from coming back. But she still refuses to acknowledge it.

I told her that limbo does not work for me and that we both clearly have a lot to think about...


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Believe none of what she says. My W says the same- waiting for the 'switch' to go off inside her. For all you know, those feelings may be starting to come back, but she doesn't want to admit it to you? Or maybe she doesn't trust those feelings just yet? Endless possibilities.

Stay the course....



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I defer to Starsky:

Originally Posted By: Starsky
I truly believe the old truth of "Love is a decision." It is a commitment that the two of you make, to each other and to the marriage, that says "we are exclusive, we are monogamous, we are going to work on this, til death do us part."
FEELINGS on the other hand, do take awhile to return. They can take a LONG while to FULLY return.
I stress this because often times (and usually, it's a wayward WOMAN, not a wayward man who expresses this) a wayward spouse will say "But I've lost my feelings for you," or "I don't love you anymore," or often "I love you but I'm not IN love with you" (which is completely a FEELINGS statement). My wife expressed the same fears to me: "If I end my affair and come back and work on the marriage with you, I don't think my feelings for you are ever going to come back." To which I replied "I'm not asking for you to guarantee anything about how you will FEEL; I'm asking you to make a DECISION to rejoin me in this marriage, and to work on it for some set period of time that we both can agree on -- say, one year. If at that time either one of us don't feel like this is working out, then at least we will know that we gave it our best shot."


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Yeah .. I was in that same pickle ...W told me she things like .. I am not sure this is the relationship I want, I dont want to hurt you but I don't feel about you that way, bla bla bla ..... I simply replied .. well ofcourse you don't, you are pouring all those feelings into another man. I later told her how disrespectful it was .. 24 years is not a fluke nor an accident. I took my portion of the blame but also shot a few truth darts of my own. So I completely agree, she will not feel anything until option "B" has ran its course, unfortunately none of us truly wants to stand aside and wait for that.

I heard a sermon by a pastor who said Love is a choice, in fact he claimed he could stick any 2 people together and if they decided to love each other it would work ... its when resentmet creeps in and we decide not to love, that starts to be replace with resentment. The history my wife and I created .. not all wonderful, but not all horrible either means something, the A they are in ... was founded on lies, untruths, and deceptive tactics. That's not a solid foundation....it will crumble .. question is .. WHEN.


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Quote:
I heard a sermon by a pastor who said Love is a choice, in fact he claimed he could stick any 2 people together and if they decided to love each other it would work ... its when resentmet creeps in and we decide not to love, that starts to be replace with resentment. The history my wife and I created .. not all wonderful, but not all horrible either means something, the A they are in ... was founded on lies, untruths, and deceptive tactics. That's not a solid foundation....it will crumble .. question is .. WHEN.


Thats going in my saved pile right there. ^^^ = truth, right there.


Me 47 - W 35
M 9 - T 10
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Agree on all fronts. The only path is to detach. I want to have patience and not pull the trigger on a D because perhaps waiting for a bit would have gotten her to stopping the A on her own.

What is annoying is that the A is the obstacle to success, although my W has said that she has been unhappy for years and her relationship with the OM (again, not an affair in her mind, they are just friends) has nothing to do with it. I of course know it is impacting us and our future.

I just need to back off and stop talking about it. Stop thinking about it.


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Originally Posted By: shodan
What put me in the dumps is a convo I had with my W yesterday. She reiterated that she has no feelings for me and is waiting for those feelings to come back before she wants to commit to working on our M.



She has this precisely BACKWARDS.


M57 W 57; D30 D28 S24 S20 GD7 GD2 GD1 GD5m GD1m
BD 5/07; W's affair 5/07-8/07

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Starsky,sorry to hijack thread. What do you do if om is out of picture. WAw has made a big effort on her mother duties.last weekend she told me A was over. She said I didn't trust her. Hard to trust her when I saw her car in his garage 10 weeks ago. She said she hasn't talked to her attorney since she filled late July. She tells me she doesn't have feelings for me. I feel frustrated and this D process will or could be slow. I just can't be the one to wreck family


M 54
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M 17
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Update...I have been out of town for work since Tuesday. I did not text or all my W yesterday and ignored a text from her (telling me that a co-worker had been fired). Last night she texted me to say "cannot sleep, this s*cks". I of course was asleep. I went out last night for a few hours with some work colleagues and had a blast. I did not respond to her text when I saw it this morning. Then today she called me but I did not pick up. She then texted me to tell me her trip to NYC tomorrow has been cancelled.

I just need to stay the course obviously. It gets harder when I am home since we share the same bed, have kids, etc. I keep telling myself that nothing that I say will cause her to change her mind, stop the A and want to work on the M. She has to make those decisions. I just pray to God to guide her and give her the strength and humility to make the right decision for her M and her family.


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I feel I need to do the same .... and like you said .. Let God help out a bit.


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Ok, here is a potentially good update....

I was out of town for the past three days and my W texted/called a few times. I did not respond except to one with "ok." I got home last night in time to see my kids before bedtime. When they left our bedroom, as I was changing (I was in my underwear) my wife came up to me, hugged me, and said "I missed you." This is the FIRST time that my W has initiated any contact with me except for laying on me from time to time in bed. I somewhat hugged her back and just said "ok."

In the middle of the night, her phone rang downstairs. She did not hear it and I did not pick it up. This morning, I came downstairs and looked at her phone. It showed that a specific # had called her a few times. The number was the # for the OM, which she previously had stored in her phone as a specific name. Therefore, she must have deleted it from her phone or else it would have shown up as the name as a missed call, not 917-XXX-XXXX.

Then, when I came upstairs, my W said "It was good that we had this time apart." I asked why. She then said she was going to call me to apologize for everything but she could tell that I was not in the mood to hear it (I guess not replying to her texts gave that impression). Then she said this week was really hard and she had a nervous breakdown. I then said "well, maybe you hit rock bottom" to which she just somewhat nodded her head.

net-net...she has not confessed to the A and clearly has not fully broken it off with him since she has her same phone #. But, this appears to be moving in the right direction.

Question for everyone....should I show some warmth or just stay detached for now? I am not sure my W will ever fully confess...she would be too stubborn/ashamed.


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In terms of warmth - is there a danger that warmth could look like pursuit? Which could lead to retreat? Perhaps you could aim for showing just a little more interest and attention, whilst still GAL yourself. And remaining rather sceptical until or unless it is crystal clear that your W wants to commit to your M.

Whilst there are some positive signs, it sounds like early days, especially if OM is still calling her...Glad things are shifting a little for you though...


T 13 M 7
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Agree, that is where my head is at as well.

The other interesting change...phone calls never appeared on my W's phone screen. In other words, if someone called, it never showed that she had a missed call. Texts did not show up either. You needed her code to open the phone and see the text (she is the only person I know that has a phone set up this way...clearly a sign of trying to hide things). I am not sure if she changed it so texts show up on her screen or not, but I have never seen a phone call appear on her screen. Granted, I do not check that often, but this could be a sign that she is TRYING to be transparent with me.

Either way, perhaps a positive sign but I need to stay detached for now. If she wants to commit to the M, she needs to tell me.


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Originally Posted By: shodan


Question for everyone....should I show some warmth or just stay detached for now? I am not sure my W will ever fully confess...she would be too stubborn/ashamed.



What just worked to re-attract her? Therein lies your answer.


M57 W 57; D30 D28 S24 S20 GD7 GD2 GD1 GD5m GD1m
BD 5/07; W's affair 5/07-8/07

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F Starsky, if I knew, I would not be here. smile

I am not sure I re-attracted her vs. she realized what she was doing to her family. I definitely have backed off a bit. I am GALing a decent amount and being super positive around her. But, for the past few weeks, while on one hand discussing D and going to mediators to show that I am serious, I also have been fun and flirty. On Tuesday, when I spoke with her on the phone, she said "I have no feelings for you and do not want to commit to working on our M until those feelings come back." Not exactly a positive vibe. Then, I don't talk with her or text with her for two days and Thursday night she hugs me and says she missed me. And based on what she said about having a panic attack and the fact that she probably deleted the OM from her phone (no other explanation for why his # would come up without it being associated with a specific name), she may be coming around.

Could she have deleted his "name/number" from her phone but still continue with the A. Absolutely. But it definitely makes it more difficult to text the OM.

I want to show her that the path home is smooth but I also do not want to pursue her and push her away.


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Originally Posted By: shodan
F Starsky, if I knew, I would not be here. smile

I am not sure I re-attracted her vs. she realized what she was doing to her family. I definitely have backed off a bit. I am GALing a decent amount and being super positive around her. But, for the past few weeks, while on one hand discussing D and going to mediators to show that I am serious, I also have been fun and flirty. On Tuesday, when I spoke with her on the phone, she said "I have no feelings for you and do not want to commit to working on our M until those feelings come back." Not exactly a positive vibe. Then, I don't talk with her or text with her for two days and Thursday night she hugs me and says she missed me. .


And again, therein lies your answer. ^^^^


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On Friday, we had a good day. I came home from work and we went for a walk together with the dog. We talked about a variety of topics and had fun together. We spent the rest of the night hanging with the kids and acting like a typical family. That night we had a fun dinner and went to bed together (nothing happened, just laid on each other).

The next morning (Saturday) we had coffee together, took the kids to soccer and went to yoga together later in the day.

However, my W's demeanor on Friday, which was very family and marriage oriented, changed to more aloof on Saturday. While we are around each other a lot, my W seemed way more irritable. I mentioned something to her about it last night and she got a bit angry at me, asked what I wanted from her and what else she needed to do. I just said that I want to work on our M but that I also need to trust her again. I told her that I will need her help to do that. I then jut stopped talking about it.

Perhaps mind reading, I sensed that she was texting with the guy again on Saturday or maybe just continuing down the road of confusion. Clearly, i just need to continue to detach and be patient. She needs to choose to come back to our family and our M. I cannot make her do that and being too "pushy" and expecting us to be one big happy family/in love couple could come across as pursuing and will push her away.


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Sho,

As much as I would personally be much darker/dimmer with her right now, you can see how Friday was a good amount of "husband/wife" interaction to re-attract her. Saturday probably smothered her.

She's showing you what pace she can live with right now.


Starsky


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Fair point. I need to slow down a bit and try to find her pace.


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Sunday was a pretty good day. We did not see each other much b/w kids activities and other stuff. But when we were around each other the mood was very pleasant. I of course am still very mistrusting of my W right now. Lots of signs point towards her wanting to be with me and the family more but without full transparency, who knows.

I think in her mind she is trying to be transparent. for example, she went for a long walk yesterday and when she got back, she told me that she ran into two of our friends and ended up walking with them for a long while and talking. These are people whom I see a lot, so I know she want not lying. I mention this b/c I sense that she wants me to trust her when she is absent. Does this mean should could not have texted/called the OM before or after meeting her friends? No. But it is a step in the right direction.

She also has been much more complimentary of me (telling me I smell nice, for example).

Detach and GAL are the name of the game for me. Starting crossfit today, which will help me meet some new people.

Keep telling myself...this is a marathon, not a sprint.


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Quick update...I did my first crossfit class today. If was good fun. Looking forward to going back tomorrow. I also met a few cool people, which is important to me more than anything. The GAL and detaching thing works.

Now off to meet my IC.


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Met with my IC today. He too saw positive changes in my situation. He encouraged me to find a reasons to travel a bit more. Said that her being without me clearly struck a chord.

I also spoke with a friend who had cheated on his W a few years ago. They are happily married now. He too echoed that my W's changes should be viewed positively but clearly she is still confused. He also encouraged me to just detach, be positive but show compassion as necessary. Not about the A, but towards her in general.

What continues to befuddle everyone is why she will not admit to the A despite obvious facts to the contrary. My DB coach thinks it could be that my W knows that once she admits to the A, she really needs to stop it (which may have happened already). My IC thinks she will not admit to the A b/c my MIL apparently never talked about her A with my FIL. She just woke up after a few weeks, came back and told him that they needed to work on their M. They did MC and were married for almost 50 yrs before he died the past May. My W knew about the A (her mom told her when it happened) so she may see "denial" as a potential path to R.

But I do know she is not fully immersed in the A:
- she is not in NYC this week and was not there last week. If she goes next week, it will be ~3 weeks since her last trip to NYC (which was for one night)
- she redecorated our living room and mentioned to me last night that she was shopping for a new couch for our living room. Not exactly the actions of a WAW in an A
- She is nicer overall towards me

When I left her this morning, she was getting dressed and was in her underwear. I told her to wear that to bed tonight (she looked super hot) and then said "I will make you a deal, you wear that to bed and I will let you touch me tonight." She smiled. I then kissed her and left.

So my approach is a little random...a bit of plan A combined with a soft plan B (GALing, not always available for her, etc.).


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One point about GALing...it REALLY helps. Especially if you do something that you really want to do. While you are doing this activity (for me, this has been crossfit), you are not thinking about your situation. More importantly, b/c you are passionate bout the GAL activity, when you are not doing the activity, you are thinking about it, which keeps your mind off of your situation. The less time your mind is focused on your situation, the more detached you will be.

Do not GAL for the sake of GAL. If you do not like the activity, you will not detach while doing it. GAL because it is something that you want to do.


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Good advice, shodan. I traveled for the sake of GAL. I did not enjoy it. I need to find something else. smile


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That's a good tip. I will file that away.


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S - 8/5/15
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I like activities where you can show improvement, it requires your complete focus, you can do research on the side AND you can meet others. Hence why I have enjoyed crossfit.

Other ideas....cooking classes? You need to focus while doing it, can meet other people and can do research (read blogs, recipes, etc.) on the side. Also, you always can get better at it. Dance lessons could work as well, if you like dance. Same with martial arts.

I have been doing guitar lessons, which hits on all of the criteria except meeting people. I met my guitar teacher, but no one else. But it does require my concentration while doing it and I can do research on the side to take my mind off of things.

I also think a really good fiction novel can help. Something where you can get lost in the characters and story. You won't meet anyone reading but at least your mind is preoccupied.


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I'm thinking of the dance lessons, There are free C&W classes not far from here.

I play guitar semi-professionally and have for 20+ years.

I did martial arts many moons ago, maybe I could get back into it.

I haven't read a good Fiction story in 15+ years

Thanks Sho, all excellent ideas!


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2 Daughters - 7 & 9
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I did men's softball.


M57 W 57; D30 D28 S24 S20 GD7 GD2 GD1 GD5m GD1m
BD 5/07; W's affair 5/07-8/07

At the end of every hard-earned day, people gotta find some reason to believe. (Bruce Springsteen)
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some journaling...yesterday I went to yoga with my W. On the way there, she mentioned this super thin woman who goes there. She is to thin frankly and my W expressed come concern for her. Then she mentioned that the woman "checks" me out in class all of the time. My W said "I did not get mad at her when I saw this, I just smiled at her." I thought this was interesting...she noticed another woman looking at me.

Then, when we got to yoga, this woman whom we see there a lot smiled at me and said "hi". My W said "she is totally into you. Well, you are a lot of work, so she can have you." She said this with a smile, not as a criticism. I laughed and said "that is pretty funny b/c I am not a lot of work. I am pretty direct and easy to read, as are you." I then commented that it is ironic that we are in this situation since we both are pretty easy to please and like the same things. I said "we both like to travel, we both like sex, good wine, chocolate and coffee." I then commented that I am getting all of that now except the second one. She smiled and said "maybe you just need to work a little harder to get it."

So confusing....

Then, we both discussed how non-confrontational we had been about our issues. Her parents NEVER fought and my parents do ALL of the time. So, when we first met, I tended to express my feelings often. My W did not like this and said "we will not fight like your parents do." So we stopped arguing for the most part but as a result, we never expressed our true feelings, desires and wants due to a fear of an argument. We both agreed that we need to do this more and state our true feelings.


Me: 40, W: 40
M: 15, T: 18
D - 10, S - 7
D announcement 6/7/2014
A discovered 7/20/2014 (but denied by W)
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I am full of mixed emotions today. On one hand, I sense that my W wants to work on our M (based on all of the thing that I have outlined previously) but I still have no confirmation that she ended the A (which she denies was ever an A anyway), which causes me to pause.

Here are some of the positive signs in the past week or so:
- we kiss most mornings and at night but i initiate it 95% of the time. But my W does not resist.
- this morning, my D10 mentioned a house that our friend is selling. She said "I love that house". My W commented "I would buy that house if you were OK switching schools." This house is ~50% more expensive than our current home. I mentioned this because my W commented to me that one of the issues in our M for her was that I was putting pressure on her to buy a bigger house. She did not want a bigger house. Therefore, her comment to my D10 is a true 180 from where she was before. Not the talk of a WAW who wants to leave her husband and family.
- I booked a reservation this weekend for the four of us but asked my W that if she wants to make it for two to let me know so I can get a babysitter. She said "why don't we just go without the kids but let's not have a reservation. I don't want to be beholden to a reservation. Maybe we just eat at home and then go out later for a drink and/or get appetizers at the bar."
- My W went to yoga this morning and bought me a coffee from Starbucks on the way back. Small gesture.

now the more negative things (which all could be in my head):
- any affection is limited to a small kiss that I initiate
- she still seems pretty rushed...her work is killing her, so I know that is part of it
- she has showed me no transparency


Me: 40, W: 40
M: 15, T: 18
D - 10, S - 7
D announcement 6/7/2014
A discovered 7/20/2014 (but denied by W)
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Your gratitude list is much larger. Just sit with it for a minute.


Me 47 - W 35
M 9 - T 10
2 Daughters - 7 & 9
Discovery of EA- 8/4/14
S - 8/5/15
D mentioned - 9/11/14
R & Piecing - 3/17/15
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Sho, I understand your worries about transparency but please be wary of being that kid on Christmas who gets pretty much everything he wants except a BB gun and thus ruins the day for everyone. You have most everything you want, it seems, and yet you are unhappy she is not giving you transparency in the manner you expect it. Maybe she is giving it to you in other ways? Just food for thought.

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Unbidden, I like your analogy (and the movie reference). I know, that is what I keep telling myself...BE PATIENT. and don't shoot my eye out. smile


Me: 40, W: 40
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ROFLMAO!


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2 Daughters - 7 & 9
Discovery of EA- 8/4/14
S - 8/5/15
D mentioned - 9/11/14
R & Piecing - 3/17/15
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I agree that it all sounds pretty positive, and I'm glad for you. But - and it is a big but I think - is transparency a crucial thing for you? If it is, I would tread carefully and take things slow, and at some point, you may want to tell your W that it is only possible to really move forward if she can be really honest with you.

Still, pleased things are moving in a good direction for you...


T 13 M 7
Me 48 H 46
SS 15
BD 7.14 PA
D final 5.16 (H filed)

We receive & we lose, and must try to achieve gratitude & embrace with whole hearts whatever of life that remains after the losses - Dubus
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Shodan, I agree that it appears that things are moving in a positive direction, however it appears to me that you're in that 'things could go either way' spot. I would rely on your DB coach (I think you mentioned having one) for guidance on how to proceed, but have you and W discussed MC at all?

My only advice would be to tread carefully at this point. Looks like you've managed to start re-attracting W, but be careful not to scare her off. I echo Toot's advice as far as W admitting to an A/ providing transparency- that's something that only you can decide is a deal breaker or not. What if she never admits to anything more than a friendship- does that matter to you?



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re: lack of transparency...I think it would take me a lot longer to trust her fully without it. I am OK with that actually. My one issue is that if she still is having some contact with him, then I know her feelings for me will not come back. That is my biggest concern because she told me that she is "waiting for her feelings to come back" before she can fully commit to our M.

re: MC...we have discussed it but she does not seem to be a fan. She has friends who have gone and she said all have found it a waste of time. But I think the MCs were focused on the past, their parents, etc.

Thanks again to everyone for the advice and feedback.


Me: 40, W: 40
M: 15, T: 18
D - 10, S - 7
D announcement 6/7/2014
A discovered 7/20/2014 (but denied by W)
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Sho, I found you from a couple posts you made to me. I've read almost all of your threads from the beginning over several days and feel like I'm looking into the not too distant future for myself.

In my sitch, I'd have a hard time if she didn't offer transparency, especially having an OM1 being a coworker, and a probable OM2 (next door neighbor to S5's friend, ugh). I know I don't want to live my life looking through my W phone/e-mail, but I'm afraid I couldn't trust without at least some of that up front. I feel the same as you, I'm tired of the lies, lies, and lies.

I too have a W that doesn't admit to the A, but when I confront with info she denies it, then later tells me it's over (3 times so far), followed shortly by being angry, spiteful, and down right mean. Last time, a week ago, I gave her the "I won't live in an open marriage" speech inspired by starsky. I did it because I felt it I had to be CLEAR and it had to be the last time to confront the A before I went back to hardcore LRT.

Based on the spiteful response from the W the next day, our R conversation two days later, and the fact that she is scheduled with an ATTY this Wednesday, I have been considering filing for D or at least look to start mediation (DM inspired by you). However, I've decided to take a wait and see approach for a little while longer. I'm not ready to push the D button myself, but limbo is unacceptable as well.

How do you think your talk of D affected your sitch? I know the 'control' thing was always in your face, but I understand sometimes you gotta take a stand. However, she is still believed to be in an A, even after all that. What would you do different if anything with the D talk?

My wife has been at a work conference for 6 days, with co-worker/OM1. I have used this week to reflect, detach, and prepare for serious LRT. My rules of thumb were going to be: initiate no hugs, no touching/rubbing, no ILY's, no mention of A, OM1, OM2, R, M, and I've stopped snooping for my sake. Especially with a possible OM2, no ML until she gets a work-over from her doc. I have been working to be more patient with the boys and show more confidence at home.

My question stems from your experience and the advice offered regarding physical contact and cake eating. You have apparently been kissing and having some contact. My thought was during LRT it's OK to accept hugs/kisses from the W if she initiates. If she were to initiate something more, like making out or ML, my plan was to say I'd like to ML with W, but unfortunately I don't have condoms in the house.

Thoughts on any of that? I don't want to be completely cold, but I want her to know she's losing me, and in short order. Don't mean to hijack, I just know you've been there for a while now, and maybe giving advice will help you reflect on your sitch too.


Me: 37, W: 36
S6, S3
M: 8
T:11
Discovered 1st A: 9/3/14
Began DB: 9/20/14
W "ended" 1st A repeatedly
Discovered at least 3 more A's, filed 10/29/14

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Blnd,

I think that's perfectly reasonable (no ML). Your own health has to come first.

Legally, you also have to understand your jurisdiction's laws about "condonation."


Starsky

Last edited by Starsky309; 10/25/14 04:32 PM.

M57 W 57; D30 D28 S24 S20 GD7 GD2 GD1 GD5m GD1m
BD 5/07; W's affair 5/07-8/07

At the end of every hard-earned day, people gotta find some reason to believe. (Bruce Springsteen)
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Condonation, that's good to know for all the LBS out there. I talked to my friend who's an ATTY and he said he'd never heard of that being used as a defense to adultry (we're in Texas). He's done a couple Ds but not his specialty. His other comment was, how does she prove you did ML even if it came up.

I made mention of the "not having a condom" as much as a zinger to put an end to "the mood". Not sure how'd the wife would respond, but I find my give a damn is almost empty.


Me: 37, W: 36
S6, S3
M: 8
T:11
Discovered 1st A: 9/3/14
Began DB: 9/20/14
W "ended" 1st A repeatedly
Discovered at least 3 more A's, filed 10/29/14

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Blindsid...sorry for my delayed response, was busy most of the weekend

re: impact of the mediation discussion on my situation...I would say it helped b/c it brought to my W's attention what was at risk here. With that said, it was not a bluff. I was serious and still am. I have told my W that I want to work on my M, but do not want to stay in the M as we have it today. We both need to make serious changes.

re: your response to ML...clearly, that condom comment would set her off. That does not mean you should not say it but be prepared for the spew of hatred. You may go a little softer with a "given where our R is right now, I don't think that ML is a wise choice."

This weekend my W and I talked about everything. She still says that she is confused. She likes what she has seen from me but also says that she cannot deal with my controlling ways (which only come out when we get into discussions about her texting and all of the secrets). She did say that everything that I am saying is what she wants to here but (1) she is not sure this is the real me and (2) she is angry that it took her pushing for a D for me to want to treat her the way she wanted to be treated.

She also recognized that she deserves a lot of the blame for where we are b/c she NEVER told me how she felt. But, she also believes that she should not have to do that and that I should want to take her out more and make her feel appreciated and loved. I of course thought I was doing that. Frankly I was doing what she told me she wanted me to do. It turns out that she wanted more but I never knew.

So, not a positive nor negative discussion. There is some potential light at the end of the tunnel and frankly it is up to my W if she wants to work on the M. If she sees it as hopeless, I cannot change her mind. Right now, she seems to be leaning toward hopeless. She says she just does not have the energy to work on our M and that she had been doing that for years.


Me: 40, W: 40
M: 15, T: 18
D - 10, S - 7
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A discovered 7/20/2014 (but denied by W)
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Shodan,

Haven't followed recently.

It looks like you are making some progress -- that's great.

Allow me to point out a few things:

1. I think Starsky is really helpful. He's succeeded with a more confrontational approach. He is also being VERY gracious to help you with your more "standing" approach which will take much longer.

2. You still need to deal with your wife's denial of the affair. It's going to be hard to repair a marriage when she can't admit she had an affair or is willing to apologize. The fact is she KNOWS you know, but is wondering how much gas lighting you'll accept.

3. You are trying to "nice" her into the marriage. Keep in mind, this strategy may work in the short-run. (18 mos -3 yrs). I've seen several guys succeed with this, but in the end, it was hard to maintain the "Superman/Trained Seal" persona forever. We all slip back into our usual selves eventually. No one thinks they will, but they do. And do you really want to be married to someone who is living with a "what have you done for me lately" mentality? the balance of power will always be in her advantage.

4. The reason you are working furiously to GAL, etc. is to save your marriage. When it's saved, you'll likely drop some of that stuff.

5. The reason you are doing this is you are afraid of losing your wife/family. She knows this. All she had to so was have an affair and you become "superman" husband.

6. What is she afraid of losing? Up to know, nothing. She has 2 guys really into her. She gets to cake-eat and decide.

7. Talk to Starsky on how to toughen up your approach. He saved his marriage and it lasted.

--Theoden




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Theoden

Thank you for the feedback. I agree that my approach is not standard. I was very direct with my W and did say that I am not going to do limbo. While I don't want to D, if she cannot commit to working on our M, then I have no other choice but to go through with the divorce mediation process.

I also believe that the A is over, for the most part. She is not planning to travel this week, but does need to be in NYC next week. That will have been four weeks since she was last in NYC, and that time four weeks ago was for one night.

My belief is that my W wants to see more consistent change before she takes the risk of jumping back into the M. She has brought up a lot of issues of which I knew nothing about. She confided that she spoke with an attorney two years ago about divorce but never went through with it.

I have continued to force a decision. I told her that we need closure of some sort. If she wants to D, I will not stop it but at least we can move on with our lives.

what is she afraid of losing...she has said that she is afraid of losing me and our family. in fact, yesterday she said that her biggest fear is that I move on, meet someone else and continue to do the good things that I have been doing lately. but she also admitted that she fears recommitting to the M and that I go back to my old ways.


Me: 40, W: 40
M: 15, T: 18
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Lost

"Thank you for your advice. I know she is having a PA and she knows I know it. She just needs to admit to it.

How are things in your sitch?

Per DB, I am focusing on me and becoming a husband only a fool would leave. Right now, I know she needs space. She needs to think. My wife is going through a MLC (turned 40, father just died, trying to juggle a very demanding job with being a good mom, coaching sports, etc.). This A is an escape for her from the stress of life. I recognize that things have not been great in our M, but they were not terrible either. It is totally salvageable, but she needs to want to save it".

Sorry it took me almost 2month to reply to your question, I've been super busy with work and my daughter.

Yes my wife is back after 9 month of her brutal affair. I'm guessing she finally drank some holly water lol, and decided to end it 3months ago. She's now willing to do anything to win my trust and affection back. I still struggle with the way I was treated, the lies, her manipulative ways to get money and sweet ride out of me, which in most part was planned with OM. I'm not sure I can trust her again, but I'm willing to try with my eyes wide open.

Divorce is never easy, but it's one of those life events that deserves a serious postmortem examination to figure out what really happened. I went through hell dealing with my W affair shodan. I almost lost everything, my home, job and my mind. And from that failure and experience I've learned a lot about what it takes to make a relationship work. (Patient)

We tend to learn best from failure, and when a marriage fails or affair surface you're certainly primed for a lot of learning and self-reflection. On the surface, my marriage had all the makings of something that should work: no abuse, no money problem and we seemingly got along great. But if I'm perfectly honest, we sucked at actually dealing with issues.The distant and disrespect was another factor. Looking back on the whole experience, I've walked away a slightly smarter man. DB was for me to work on me and be the best man I can be for my daughter.

I'll be blunt here shodan, you wife need to enjoy her affair for now. You can not stop it! Nothing you do will change her mind until she's ready to stop it. Shodan also need to take care of shodan. Keep the focus on you and the kids, detach, and take care of your kids. She will come back but when she's ready to come back.

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Shodan,

You said...

Quote:
My belief is that my W wants to see more consistent change before she takes the risk of jumping back into the M. She has brought up a lot of issues of which I knew nothing about. She confided that she spoke with an attorney two years ago about divorce but never went through with it


This statement bothers me. She denies her affair, gets to continue it, and will only want back into the marriage if YOU continue your changes (Super-husband/trained-seal act). The mature way to handle this is to see a marriage counselor and lay it on the table. The wrong way is to have an affair, deny it, put you though hell, and then demand change before changing her mind. How do you plan to handle the denial of an affair? How long do you need to keep your changes up? Forever? Good luck with that. When there are other things she doesn't like in the future (which inevitably she will, since you are a flawed human, like the rest of us) will she go to a counselor or choose to get involved in another affair which she won't tell you about?

Your wife handles problems by unilaterally choosing to pull out of the marriage and have affairs. When is HER behavior/attitude change going to come into this? Unless she SERIOUSLY owns up to the pain she's caused you, admits her affair and asks for your forgiveness, and has an "aha" moment when she realizes she needs to take 50% of the responsibility for working through your marriage issues, this isn't going to work.

Quote:
What is she afraid of losing...she has said that she is afraid of losing me and our family. in fact, yesterday she said that her biggest fear is that I move on, meet someone else and continue to do the good things that I have been doing lately.


She's not afraid of losing you. She doesn't want you as you are. She's afraid of losing the guy you haven't become yet. She's waiting to see what kind of super-husband/trained-seal you can become. She's afraid that you might turn out to be an emotional/relational/sexual winning lottery ticket. Shodan, she has to be afraid of losing you as you are now and afraid of putting your kids through a divorce. What I see is you are the only one really afraid here. And you're scrambling furiously to be the kind of guy your wife doesn't want to lose.

Then you said:

Quote:
but she also admitted that she fears recommitting to the M and that I go back to my old ways.


Guess what, Shodan. You will go back to your old ways. All of us think our changes are permanent. We SWEAR we'll never slip back. We all eventually do. This doesn't mean that you can never change, or that, in a relationship with someone who is committed to your marriage, you can't compromise, fill their love bucket, speak their love language, etc. But right now, your marriage's survival is predicated on YOU keeping up this impossible game of walking on eggshells, self-improving, GAL-ing, and being hyper-tuned into your wife's needs. It will always be a game of, "Shodan, what have you done for me lately?" How long can you live your life like that? And let's assume she wants back in. Can you REALLY keep this up? How will you be able to live with your wife's denial of her affair and refusing to deal with it? How will you ever know she's stopped? Are you prepared to check on her for the rest of your married life? The affair is the elephant in the room and she's lying to you about it.

There are two guys on the DB boards who were the expert coaches on how to save your marriage. We all turned to them for advice. I spoke with both of them on the phone multiple times. Much like Starsky, they were revered as guys who beat the odds. But unlike Starsky, their marriage was saved much the way yours seemed to be being saved: they went on a furious GAL program and did tons of 180's and LRT. They became the better option. And yes, their wives wanted back into the marriage. And yes, we all cheered their victories. Two-Three years later, they were both divorced. What happened? Well, for one, their wives never changed. It was all about their husband's becoming better people. Both of their wives went into counseling and even apologized for their affairs. But both of the apologies were perfunctory and not heart-felt. Second, their husbands (our heroes) eventually slipped back into old behavior. They could only be super-husbands for so long. Third, their wives were never faced with the REAL possibility of losing their husbands the first go-around. Their husbands never showed back-bone or resolve, and somewhere their wives lost respect for them. In they end both set of walk-away-wives got into a new set of affairs and divorced their divorce-busting husbands. One of these guys tried to do GAL-ing and 180's again, but his wife didn't buy it and didn't want to be married to a less-than-perfect husband. The other guy went off the deep end and his life was shattered (lost his house, etc.)

Starsky went about it differently wit more resolve up front, and he's still married. Have a heart-to-heart with him. Please do this.

I strongly suggest you go the Chump Lady site and look at some of the articles on "The Humiliating Dance of Pick Me" and the "Unified Theory of Cake". It's hilarious. It may not change your mind, but it may offer a sobering and Starky-esque perspective.

Theoden



Last edited by theoden; 10/27/14 05:01 PM.



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Theoden, thanks for the Chump Lady tip. She is hilarious - gave me a good laugh at the end of a tough day!


T 13 M 7
Me 48 H 46
SS 15
BD 7.14 PA
D final 5.16 (H filed)

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shodan, are you looking into couple therapy?


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This thread has certainly inspired me and see so many similarities.

shodan, are you getting help from a therapist? And what about couple therapy? Is that an option?


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Theoden, thank you for the feedback. You definitely make some valid points. I do not believe that I am "niceing" my W back into our M. I have been very firm about my stance on the A. but you are correct, my W has not admitted to the A.

Do I think she is still in the A? No, I do not. Do I believe that my W is committed to our M 100%? No, she is not committed 100%.

But as I reflect on her comments, I have realized that one of the biggest sources of discontent for us was my involvement in martial arts. I was practicing 6-7 hrs per week (included time spent teaching it). Not only was I away from home 2-3 nights per week, but the work of balancing my work, my family and martial arts caused me to be super anxious and stressed, which made life not fun for my W. Since I quit martial arts back in June, my W and my kids have noticed a huge change in me. I am more fun and more relaxed. I am enjoying the day to day more.

I make this point b/c you mentioned that I will slip back into my old ways. I totally agree that I will not be "perfect" but I also do not plan to go back to martial arts. I know this was my achilles heal. My analogy is an addict. I quit my addiction and as long as I don't go back to it, my life will be forever changed.

Finally, I have been very firm that she needs to commit to the M or we need to D. I have met with multiple attorneys and two divorce mediators. She knows that I am serious. She too has commented that she knows a D will devastate our kids. She does not want it either.

However, I agree with you about her denial of the A. I am struggling now with how I want to deal with that. I have a call with my DB coach later this week to discuss this. I don't want my stance to be "I know about the A, you know I know, but you need to admit to it and show absolute remorse if we are to work on the M" b/c I know this will back my W into a corner. And it also could be perceived as me saying "you are the person is wrong not me." Please note that this is not my reacting to how my W has been these past several months, but how she has been since the beginning of our relationship. She is super stubborn. She needs to come to the conclusion on her own that she should tell me and that she needs to earn back my trust. She knows trust is a big concern of mine.

Again, thank you for the feedback. Please do not consider my thoughts as objections to your comments.


Me: 40, W: 40
M: 15, T: 18
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Originally Posted By: shodan


However, I agree with you about her denial of the A. I am struggling now with how I want to deal with that. I have a call with my DB coach later this week to discuss this. I don't want my stance to be "I know about the A, you know I know, but you need to admit to it and show absolute remorse if we are to work on the M" b/c I know this will back my W into a corner. And it also could be perceived as me saying "you are the person is wrong not me."


Shodan, I think you're viewing this wrong. Your position should be "Look, if we're going to remain in this marriage and work on it together, we need to come to it from a position of total honesty and transparency with each other. I've owned my mistakes, and what I'm doing to change them, but you have not. To continue to look right at me and tell me you never had an affair, when we BOTH know that you did, makes me unable to believe your current promise of 'whatever that was, it's all over now and I want to work on the marriage.' This can't just be all me here."

Theoden brings up many strong, compelling things to think about it, as he always does when he pops by here. I hope you'll think long and hard about them.

Setting aside the whole "remorse" and "admitting the affair" thing for a moment, I want to bring up a third thing that I think is even more important than those two, and that is this:

Do you think your wife has shown the proper introspection that would indicate to you that she even "gets it" in terms of how inappropriate her response to your two's marital problems was (decision to have an affair), and how destructive it is to your family?


That "introspection" piece, to me, is the "1(b)" that goes with the "1(a)" of remorse. Unless and until your wife "does her own work" on why she nearly (and still may) carpet-bomb her marriage and her family because her husband was moody and did too many hours per week of martial arts, I don't think it's in your best interests to try and reconcile irrespective her continued contact with OM.


Starsky


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Shodan,

My pleasure to help in any way.

OK so you quit your "addiction". Bravo. That takes a lot of courage and self-sacrifice. If this the THE issue, a lot of the tension should resolve itself.

But do you see how unbalanced this is? It's about YOU fixing it. YOU not being fun for your wife. YOU changing. She hasn't owned up to her small contribution (maybe 1-2%) to your current crisis: her affair. She feels entitled to have an affair because you were less than an ideal husband. And she feels compelled to lie about it even though you know.

Some say in Divorce Busting that you need to pave a smooth road home. In other words, not many demands, no judgement, no accusations, no backing anyone into a corner. You change, you become a better husband, you remove the objections your spouse had to remaining in the marriage, and they come back.

OK. Good so far. What happens when they come back? Where does the rebuilding begin? How does it begin?

Some DB-ers on this forum have paved such a smooth road home that their cheating spouses (those that actually admitted to it) never really demonstrated remorse or really grasped how much damage they did. Their new and improved spouse, fresh from 180's, GAL-ing, therapy, etc is actually the better option than the affair partner. Sure. Who wouldn't want a better OPTION? The operative word here is option. They say don't make anyone a priority who makes you an option. How do you get from being the better option to being her husband for better or worse, richer or poorer, in sickness and in health? That's the real hard work.

I think you realize it's not just about your wife "re-committing" to the marriage (which often really means, she recommitting to you as long as you are a better option). It's also about your wife admitting the affair and doing the hard work of bearing your burdens and your pain that will enable true forgiveness and reconciliation to take place.

On a personal note, my wife ended her affair (or rather, the OM ended it for her), but never admitted it was wrong. She never asked for forgiveness and never expressed remorse. She didn't even want to talk about it in couples therapy. She felt she was being "judged". She said outright, "My affair wasn't wrong." We couldn't have real reconciliation without it. She said she wanted a strong marriage, but felt an affair was a justifiable option if you weren't "feeling it". Sure she "re-committed" to the marriage, but it was clear I didn't matter all that much to her. Needless to say she became a WAW again and started with OM #2. We are now divorced. I paved too smooth a path for her. Simply put: she wasn't sorry AND she never really came to the conclusion that destroying a family is a bad thing just so that you can feel more romantically alive with someone. Perhaps some people CAN'T be sorry. Those folks might indeed have some form of narcissism operating.

There are people in the DB boards who will poo-poo this position. You might hear, "Would you rather be right or be married?" You can't have a marriage without truth, honesty, integrity and a basic moral compass.

I can suggest two resources that might help.

There's a great book by Janis Spring called How Can I Forgive You? Her argument is that true forgiveness is a shared process if you want reconciliation. She says acceptance is where the hurt person bears the whole burden of the process alone. It helps you move on, but it doesn't seek to reconcile. Forgiveness is where the person who hurt you (or cheated on you) actively shares the process and owns up to their actions. Great book.

Also for a great snapshot of what real remorse looks like, I suggest the article, Real-remorse-or-genuine-imitation-naugahyde-remorse? at the Chump Lady Website. It's under the reconciliation section. It's similar to MWD's advice to people who have cheated -- they need to BEND OVER BACKWARDS to really rebuild trust and show remorse. Maybe not right now. But soon enough. If you make their return TOO easy, they will not value you.

Best of Luck

Theoden






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Shodan,

Brilliant post by Starsky.

Introspection, compassion, remorse, repentance.

--Alan




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Toots,

My pleasure.




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Originally Posted By: theoden
Shodan,

My pleasure to help in any way.

OK so you quit your "addiction". Bravo. That takes a lot of courage and self-sacrifice. If this the THE issue, a lot of the tension should resolve itself.

But do you see how unbalanced this is? It's about YOU fixing it. YOU not being fun for your wife. YOU changing. She hasn't owned up to her small contribution (maybe 1-2%) to your current crisis: her affair. She feels entitled to have an affair because you were less than an ideal husband. And she feels compelled to lie about it even though you know.

Some say in Divorce Busting that you need to pave a smooth road home. In other words, not many demands, no judgement, no accusations, no backing anyone into a corner. You change, you become a better husband, you remove the objections your spouse had to remaining in the marriage, and they come back.

OK. Good so far. What happens when they come back? Where does the rebuilding begin? How does it begin?

Some DB-ers on this forum have paved such a smooth road home that their cheating spouses (those that actually admitted to it) never really demonstrated remorse or really grasped how much damage they did. Their new and improved spouse, fresh from 180's, GAL-ing, therapy, etc is actually the better option than the affair partner. Sure. Who wouldn't want a better OPTION? The operative word here is option. They say don't make anyone a priority who makes you an option. How do you get from being the better option to being her husband for better or worse, richer or poorer, in sickness and in health? That's the real hard work.

I think you realize it's not just about your wife "re-committing" to the marriage (which often really means, she recommitting to you as long as you are a better option). It's also about your wife admitting the affair and doing the hard work of bearing your burdens and your pain that will enable true forgiveness and reconciliation to take place.

On a personal note, my wife ended her affair (or rather, the OM ended it for her), but never admitted it was wrong. She never asked for forgiveness and never expressed remorse. She didn't even want to talk about it in couples therapy. She felt she was being "judged". She said outright, "My affair wasn't wrong." We couldn't have real reconciliation without it. She said she wanted a strong marriage, but felt an affair was a justifiable option if you weren't "feeling it". Sure she "re-committed" to the marriage, but it was clear I didn't matter all that much to her. Needless to say she became a WAW again and started with OM #2. We are now divorced. I paved too smooth a path for her. Simply put: she wasn't sorry AND she never really came to the conclusion that destroying a family is a bad thing just so that you can feel more romantically alive with someone. Perhaps some people CAN'T be sorry. Those folks might indeed have some form of narcissism operating.

There are people in the DB boards who will poo-poo this position. You might hear, "Would you rather be right or be married?" You can't have a marriage without truth, honesty, integrity and a basic moral compass.

I can suggest two resources that might help.

There's a great book by Janis Spring called How Can I Forgive You? Her argument is that true forgiveness is a shared process if you want reconciliation. She says acceptance is where the hurt person bears the whole burden of the process alone. It helps you move on, but it doesn't seek to reconcile. Forgiveness is where the person who hurt you (or cheated on you) actively shares the process and owns up to their actions. Great book.

Also for a great snapshot of what real remorse looks like, I suggest the article, Real-remorse-or-genuine-imitation-naugahyde-remorse? at the Chump Lady Website. It's under the reconciliation section. It's similar to MWD's advice to people who have cheated -- they need to BEND OVER BACKWARDS to really rebuild trust and show remorse. Maybe not right now. But soon enough. If you make their return TOO easy, they will not value you.

Best of Luck

Theoden




Wisdom. Much wisdom. ^^^


whistle whistle whistle whistle


As a classic "pleaser"/"Mr. Nice Guy" myself, it took me more than 20 years to finally learn most of that stuff. I'm STILL learning SOME of it, but at least it's from more of an "unconscious incompetent" standpoint where I'm aware of it and working on it.

To me, it's all about how does each marriage partner respond -- to themselves, to their family and to their spouse -- in times of marital and life crises. Unless and until BOTH of you learn to respond to them in a mature, committed, less-destructive manner and not in the "if-it-feels-good-do-it" mantra of most of today's Western marriages . . . your marriage only stands about a 10-20% chance, in my humble opinion.


Starsky


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Wow thats an incredible post from Theoden. And it makes me really doubt my efforts right now.


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1foot2,

What are your efforts? I'm sure Starsky can help you tweak them. There's always hope, and it's never too late to try something new.

It's one thing to pave a smooth road home, but eventually the wayward spouse needs to own up to things and really re-commit to the marriage. Even Michelle Weiner Davis in her chapter on Infidelity in the DR says that the cheater needs to bend-over backwards at some point to rebuild trust. If they balk at no-contact, or remorse, or talking about the affair, or giving details it's not a good sign. Starsky's point is well taken:

Quote:
To me, it's all about how does each marriage partner respond -- to themselves, to their family and to their spouse -- in times of marital and life crises. Unless and until BOTH of you learn to respond to them in a mature, committed, less-destructive manner and not in the "if-it-feels-good-do-it" mantra of most of today's Western marriages . . . your marriage only stands about a 10-20% chance, in my humble opinion.






--Theoden

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I have a thread in newcomers, id appreciate you looking at it. ive made a fair amount of "progress" and have a lot of clarity as to my role in the Ms faltering, and how I can become a better partner. But reading your post above, I really wonder if my W is capable of doing the things you mentioned re: reconciling.


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Thanks for the continued input and feedback.

I have seen and experienced changes in my W. No, she has not admitted to the A and fully apologized. But on numerous occasions she has said that she bears 50% of the fault for where our M is. She acknowledges that she is horrible at communicating and was sharing her feelings with other people, not with me. She also has acknowledged that some of her feelings towards me were likely just in her head. For example, she pushed me away b/c she assumed that I would do or say X. She is now slowing down and realizing that most of her assumptions have been wrong (she has said this to me). She also said that she assumed that she did things that annoyed me. She said the other night that for the past few months she has seen that those things do not annoy me. I told her that they never did. She just assumed that they did and therefore built up a wall against me.

Further, she is being much more transparent with me about day to day. Where she is going, who is will be with, etc. Again, I don't have access to her phone so one could argue that these are all lies to make me believe that her A is over. But I have seen a big change in her demeanor and attitude.

But, the notion that M require work is a novel concept for my W. She still believes in the fairy tale idea that it all should work magically and spouses should read each others minds. Therefore, she is not in a place mentally to admit to the A.

net-net...little by little is she owning up to things that she did or did not do. She is not sitting back saying "you were the bad spouse and need to do all of the work." She admits to where she has been wrong in the past. For example, she always told me to do martial arts, yet actually did not want me to go. So I went b/c I liked it and I thought she really wanted me to go. She nows admits that she should have been truthful and that her motivation before was for me to "like" her and for her to be the "cool" wife who does not nag. She now understands that we need to communicate our feelings and opinions.


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Originally Posted By: theoden
Needless to say she became a WAW again and started with OM #2. We are now divorced. I paved too smooth a path for her.

Ditto, here. She even tried a few years later, but fortunately by then I had found my "N.U.T.S." and it was "No More Mr. Nice Guy."

smile

The bright side is that I'm currently in a long term relationship where we both ask for what we want, are completely open and honest with each other, and work through our problems like rational caring adults.

DB is for life. No matter what happens.


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Originally Posted By: shodan


But, the notion that M require work is a novel concept for my W. She still believes in the fairy tale idea that it all should work magically and spouses should read each others minds.




This alone would be a dealbreaker for me. I could not be married to someone like this, especially after such a huge "Strike 1." But maybe that's just me.

How can you POSSIBLY do the hard work that's going to be necessary (mine took over three YEARS, and is STILL a work in progress 7.5 years later!) to repair the damage if your wife doesn't even realize that marriage should TAKE hard work?

You will never be able to complete with the fairy-tale romantic/illicit squishiness of not only OM1, but potentially a future OM2, or OM3, Shodan. What you DO have is what we ALL have, and that's our shared family history with our spouse and the deeper-level love and bond that come with time in a good marriage. If she's not even aware that such a different kind of almost-"agape" love exists, much less WORK at it, she will spend her life pursuing purely "eros" love (in all the wrong places!), while she still has her youth and good looks.


Starsky


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"If she's not even aware that such a different kind of almost-"agape" love exists, much less WORK at it, she will spend her life pursuing "eros" love (in all the wrong places!), while she still has her youth and good looks."

Good reminder that we should be striving for agape in our marriages while maintaining philia and eros as well. Another vision of the trinity at work in marriage.


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Yep.


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Starsky

I totally agree. Fixing our M will take a TON of work. She is starting to realize that it takes work (based on what she has said to me). Until very recently, however, she did assume that a M was like a fairy tale. in fact, we discussed how we both can go out and find that "eros" love, but at what cost? We break up our family. I know my W does NOT want to do this.

I am pushing hard for closure. If she cannot commit make a decision, I am going to make it for her.


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Originally Posted By: shodan



I am pushing hard for closure. If she cannot commit make a decision, I am going to make it for her.



Just be careful with this ^. You're looking for commitment, not compliance.


Starsky


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Drew,

Yup heading in that direction now.

Stay strong!




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Wow

So much of this I needed to read .. granted my sitch is a bit different .. MLC and all .. but still even if she comes out I know I am forced to look at my M this way. I am not so sure if she ever comes out that she would be willing to do this .. and I am one who needcs to read NMMNG about 4 more times. Amazing how someone elses post can just sit you up out of your chair and have that eureka moment. .... so much I bookmarked this

Starsky, Theoden ... thank you


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My pleasure CaliGuy.

I am a walking red-flag. Don't do what I did. ;-)

Or rather, do what I didn't do: take a stand, plant my flag and let the chips fall where they may.

Please read the Chump Lady website for humor and a perspective.

--Theoden




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Just to be clear, theoden and Starsky's approaches are in regard to the situation AFTER the cheating WAW has shown a willingness to work on their marriage again, correct?

If the WAW is still very much engaged in the A with the OM, and has made no indication to reconcile, then I would think "standing ground" would simply drive her away faster (according to DB principles), no?


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In my opinion, no.

People treat us the way we allow them to treat us.


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Mindsin,

Quote:
Just to be clear, theoden and Starsky's approaches are in regard to the situation AFTER the cheating WAW has shown a willingness to work on their marriage again, correct?

If the WAW is still very much engaged in the A with the OM, and has made no indication to reconcile, then I would think "standing ground" would simply drive her away faster (according to DB principles), no?


That's a very good question.

But...part of the way you act during your WAW's affair may have an impact on her willingness to work on the marriage.

A hard-line doesn't necessarily mean you're a jerk or manipulative. It means you have some non-negotiables, which means you are person with a spine and worth respecting. . You are solid and trust-able. In addition, you may need to protect your children, finances and health, so hard-lines are sometimes necessary. The same idea in DB is there when it tells you not to chase, beg or plead. It's unattractive to be a doormat.

Sometimes boundaries are attractive.

It's something to be balanced. What will attract your spouse in the fog of an affair? On the spectrum between milquetoast and intransigent idiot, what is the wise choice?

My personal experience was I tried to GAL, 180 and "nice" my wife back into the marriage and I found it to be very exhausting. When my wife was ready to try working on the marriage, she had already taken an attitude of entitlement (she has right to have an affair), and did not show any remorse. I needed those things to trust her. In addition she was rewarded with a new and improved husband to reward her for her infidelity. Also the "new and improved" Theoden couldn't keep it up for long. I am who I am. And she was only coming back to a marriage as long as I was the better option. New problems arose and she moved on to OM #2.

In hindsight I could have saved a lot of time (years) if I just took a hard-line and gave her an ultimatum.

This doesn't mean that the softer, non-confrontational approach doesn't work. I'm just speaking from my failed attempts.

Theoden




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Mindsin,

If a reconciliation is only based on the betrayed spouse keeping up their cheater's love-bank full and maintaining their GAL and 180 changes, then you are choosing a marriage of "What have you done for me lately?" On the other hand, if the cheater has an "aha" moment and really, deeply realizes that betraying trust and harming their children is NOT the way to deal with mariage problems, and actually acts in a way to make amends, which includes expressing remorse, then the marriage is on stronger ground.

The cheater is the kind of person with a moral compass that says it's OK to cheat if my needs aren't met...so....then they need to grow a conscience, plain and simple.

So when in the process do you address your cheating spouse's mis-aligned moral compass? And how do you know it's really changed?

Theoden




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Originally Posted By: mindsin
Just to be clear, theoden and Starsky's approaches are in regard to the situation AFTER the cheating WAW has shown a willingness to work on their marriage again, correct?

If the WAW is still very much engaged in the A with the OM, and has made no indication to reconcile, then I would think "standing ground" would simply drive her away faster (according to DB principles), no?


Hi Mindsin,

To the extent that I have an "approach" (I really try to tailor my advice to each individual poster, their sitch, and their marital backstory), I have one THROUGHOUT the process. From how to handle the "bomb drop," to how aggressively to fight any affairs, to protecting the family finances and getting your legal ducks in a row, right thru to the (hopefully) moment when your formerly wayward spouse asks you "What will it take for you to take me back?" and you being the hard long slog of "piecing."

So no, that's not an accurate assessment. If anything, I'd probably stress a little more of the OPPOSITE -- I'm very much a "If you ARE going to lay strong boundaries, lay 'em EARLY" guy. I find that it saves the betrayed spouses months if not YEARS of emotional damage and heartache.

Starsky


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What you DON'T do (and maybe this is what you mean by your question) is start laying out "Well let me TELL ya, this is what it's going to take for me to take you back!" when your spouse is still wayward, looking at you like you're nuts, and saying "Um, dear, who said anything about me even WANTING to come back??!"


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Thanks for your response theoden. I actually brought this up to my W very early on (a few weeks after the bomb).

I told her that I was afraid of losing her respect if I just stood by and did nothing, and that I didn't want to be a man who didn't fight for his W and family.

Her response was, "I would respect you more if you just let me be happy"


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Btw, sorry if I'm hijacking here Shodan. I'm trying to keep my posts on topic and relevant to the discussion without delving into my particular situation.


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Originally Posted By: mindsin
Thanks for your response theoden. I actually brought this up to my W very early on (a few weeks after the bomb).

I told her that I was afraid of losing her respect if I just stood by and did nothing, and that I didn't want to be a man who didn't fight for his W and family.

Her response was, "I would respect you more if you just let me be happy"


My wife said pretty much the same thing while she was still in the throes of her affair. "Why won't you just let me go?!" and "I will never, EVER love you again . . . can't you see that?" and "What you're doing is only driving me away!" Etc.

When we reconciled, she tearfully asked me why I fought so hard for her. I told her:

- because I took a wedding vow, before God, and I took that very seriously. It was not "for better or for better yet," it was "for better or for WORSE";

- because I loved her, and we had a lot of shared history together;

- because I didn't want to demonstrate to our four children that when things get tough, you cut and run. You make a stand and fight for what is important to you, for as long as you can, to the best of your ability;

- because if the situation were reversed, and I had say a gambling or alcohol addiction, I would hope that she would do the same and fight for ME;

- and because I didn't want to go to my death bed with REGRETS, that I should have tried harder. If I was going to err, I was going to err on the side of trying to save my marriage and keep my family intact.

After we reconciled, she THANKED me for fighting for her, and told me that she RESPECTED WHAT I DID (even thought she was royall p*ssed off at me at the time!, lol)


Starsky


M57 W 57; D30 D28 S24 S20 GD7 GD2 GD1 GD5m GD1m
BD 5/07; W's affair 5/07-8/07

At the end of every hard-earned day, people gotta find some reason to believe. (Bruce Springsteen)
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Originally Posted By: Starsky309
What you DON'T do (and maybe this is what you mean by your question) is start laying out "Well let me TELL ya, this is what it's going to take for me to take you back!" when your spouse is still wayward, looking at you like you're nuts, and saying "Um, dear, who said anything about me even WANTING to come back??!"


Yeah, that's where I was going with my question. For example, demanding commitment to rebuild the marriage, and having her take ownership of mistakes, wrong-doings, etc.

Thanks.


M: 15 years
BD: 6/25/14
EA/PA: starts 5/14/14
11/30/14 - A ends
5/15/15 - D is finalized.
11/28/15 - Start of new LTR with a wonderful woman (and still going strong)!
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Originally Posted By: Starsky309
Originally Posted By: mindsin
Thanks for your response theoden. I actually brought this up to my W very early on (a few weeks after the bomb).

I told her that I was afraid of losing her respect if I just stood by and did nothing, and that I didn't want to be a man who didn't fight for his W and family.

Her response was, "I would respect you more if you just let me be happy"


My wife said pretty much the same thing while she was still in the throes of her affair. "Why won't you just let me go?!" and "I will never, EVER love you again . . . can't you see that?" and "What you're doing is only driving me away!" Etc.

When we reconciled, she tearfully asked me why I fought so hard for her. I told her:

- because I took a wedding vow, before God, and I took that very seriously. It was not "for better or for better yet," it was "for better or for WORSE";

- because I loved her, and we had a lot of shared history together;

- because I didn't want to demonstrate to our four children that when things get tough, you cut and run. You make a stand and fight for what is important to you, for as long as you can, to the best of your ability;

- because if the situation were reversed, and I had say a gambling or alcohol addiction, I would hope that she would do the same and fight for ME;

- and because I didn't want to go to my death bed with REGRETS, that I should have tried harder. If I was going to err, I was going to err on the side of trying to save my marriage and keep my family intact.

After we reconciled, she THANKED me for fighting for her, and told me that she RESPECTED WHAT I DID (even thought she was royall p*ssed off at me at the time!, lol)

Starsky


Wow. Good stuff here Starsky! Is your thread still active? I'd love to read your story. If not, could you outline some of the key things you did to fight for her, and perhaps which one(s) you think were the most crucial to your success? Thanks.


M: 15 years
BD: 6/25/14
EA/PA: starts 5/14/14
11/30/14 - A ends
5/15/15 - D is finalized.
11/28/15 - Start of new LTR with a wonderful woman (and still going strong)!
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Originally Posted By: mindsin
Originally Posted By: Starsky309
What you DON'T do (and maybe this is what you mean by your question) is start laying out "Well let me TELL ya, this is what it's going to take for me to take you back!" when your spouse is still wayward, looking at you like you're nuts, and saying "Um, dear, who said anything about me even WANTING to come back??!"


Yeah, that's where I was going with my question. For example, demanding commitment to rebuild the marriage, and having her take ownership of mistakes, wrong-doings, etc.

Thanks.


No, that is not the time for those demands. The boundaries that should be set early are "I will not live in an open marriage" (the biggie), and things like "No texting or calling OM/OW from inside of our marital home," or "No spending family funds on your affair" -- that sort of thing.


M57 W 57; D30 D28 S24 S20 GD7 GD2 GD1 GD5m GD1m
BD 5/07; W's affair 5/07-8/07

At the end of every hard-earned day, people gotta find some reason to believe. (Bruce Springsteen)
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Originally Posted By: mindsin


Wow. Good stuff here Starsky! Is your thread still active? I'd love to read your story. If not, could you outline some of the key things you did to fight for her, and perhaps which one(s) you think were the most crucial to your success? Thanks.


I used to post both as "Chocolateeyes" and then as "Puppy Dog Tails" before becoming "Starsky" (long story, lol). My links are below -- I'm pretty sure they still work.


Choc/Puppy/Starsky


Choc's threads


Puppy's threads


(there's a TON there to read . . . if you want to skip to the part of my wife's affair, that's from May - Aug 2007)

Last edited by Starsky309; 10/29/14 06:42 PM.

M57 W 57; D30 D28 S24 S20 GD7 GD2 GD1 GD5m GD1m
BD 5/07; W's affair 5/07-8/07

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Originally Posted By: mindsin
could you outline some of the key things you did to fight for her, and perhaps which one(s) you think were the most crucial to your success? Thanks.



My wife told me after we reconciled that the most important things were:


1. The way I fought for our marriage and our family;


2. The loss of my friendship while she was having her affair (and I told her I had absolutely zero intention of being her friend, much less her BEST friend, if she decided to end our marriage like this, by having an affair and lying to everyone about it);

3. The disapproval of her parents and our adult daughters, to whom I exposed her affair*


*(exposure is NOT advocated by DB/DR; I'm just answering mindsin's question).

Last edited by Starsky309; 10/29/14 06:50 PM.

M57 W 57; D30 D28 S24 S20 GD7 GD2 GD1 GD5m GD1m
BD 5/07; W's affair 5/07-8/07

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Originally Posted By: mindsin
Yeah, that's where I was going with my question. For example, demanding commitment to rebuild the marriage, and having her take ownership of mistakes, wrong-doings, etc.

And that's the difference between controlling behavior and healthy boundaries.

Controlling: "You need to stop the affair immediately!!"

Boundary: "If you continue with your affair, I will be forced to ... protect family funds, protect the children, eventually end the marriage, etc."


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Originally Posted By: Drew
Originally Posted By: mindsin
Yeah, that's where I was going with my question. For example, demanding commitment to rebuild the marriage, and having her take ownership of mistakes, wrong-doings, etc.

And that's the difference between controlling behavior and healthy boundaries.

Controlling: "You need to stop the affair immediately!!"

Boundary: "If you continue with your affair, I will be forced to ... protect family funds, protect the children, eventually end the marriage, etc."



Precisely.


M57 W 57; D30 D28 S24 S20 GD7 GD2 GD1 GD5m GD1m
BD 5/07; W's affair 5/07-8/07

At the end of every hard-earned day, people gotta find some reason to believe. (Bruce Springsteen)
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