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fthnluv Offline OP
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Prior thread: New here, my fairytale gone wrong

I spent much of the day trying to figure out why I couldn't reply to my previous thread... then I realized that it had reached over 100 posts so was locked... D'oh! moment for sure!

Spoke to H today. He is waiting to hear back from tax attorney with question he has. He said that he spoke to his attorney and that he wants to work out a mutual consent divorce with him taking care of all the taxes by himself. He says his attorney thinks he's crazy. I later found out that even if WE agreed to do that in the D the IRS will not honor it at all and could go after me for the taxes anyway. Gonna have to come up with something else. My plan is to wait to have the D finalized until the taxes are settled and paid but I might not be able to stall that long.

He said that his attorney will not change the date of separation on the unilateral divorce because it won't matter and can be changed if we go mutual consent instead. His attorney also thinks that H might win that hearing, I don't know how, considering I have lots of texts, counselor statements, a couples vacation (with sex) and pics of him acting as my husband with his ring still on as late as August of this year... I'm still torn on the possibility of a mutual consent D, I do not want to agree to the divorce at all, morally. My understanding is that mutual consent divorces take about 90-120 days, whereas if I fight and win this unilateral divorce based on date of separation it will be 2 years from August... I told him I will not decide what I need to do until I see the next paperwork from his attorney but I might still contest that date if I have to.

At this point he is still being generous, in theory, in reality he may not be able to meet all the financial obligations he is committing himself to so there's not much security in it anyway. I guess we will wait to see the paperwork.


Me- 40 H- 41
S8, D5, S4
M 19 y T 23
Bomb drop 6/2013
H asked for/filed for D 9/2014
22 yo OW discovered 9/19/14 they're engaged and living together
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Oh, and a good thing too. Today, for the first time in 2 weeks (since I found out about OW) for about 30 minutes I felt a little peace and happiness and security! It only lasted 30 minutes or so but I'll take it! Maybe tomorrow I'll get it again for 31 minutes...


Me- 40 H- 41
S8, D5, S4
M 19 y T 23
Bomb drop 6/2013
H asked for/filed for D 9/2014
22 yo OW discovered 9/19/14 they're engaged and living together
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I guess you don't need my advice. Good luck


M-43 W-40
2D - 9 and 5

Emotion, yet peace.
Ignorance, yet knowledge.
Passion, yet serenity.
Chaos, yet harmony.
Death, yet a new life.

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fthnluv Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: MrBond
I guess you don't need my advice. Good luck

This confuses me. Why would you think I don't need your advice? It sounds like your stance on standing for M based on your marital vows is similar to mine. That does not mean I don't waver or that I still need to weigh heavily the pro's and con's of each legal decision I make. You are obviously a very valued contributor here and I want ANY advice or opinions you are willing to give. Did I miss something? I'm not exactly in MY right mind now either, so I wouldn't be surprised if there was advice I missed or didn't take completely to heart.


Me- 40 H- 41
S8, D5, S4
M 19 y T 23
Bomb drop 6/2013
H asked for/filed for D 9/2014
22 yo OW discovered 9/19/14 they're engaged and living together
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Usually when a poster doesn't respond to someone who posted to them it means that they aren't interested in what they have to say. You replied to everyone who responded to you except for my comment, so I assumed you didn't think it relevant.


M-43 W-40
2D - 9 and 5

Emotion, yet peace.
Ignorance, yet knowledge.
Passion, yet serenity.
Chaos, yet harmony.
Death, yet a new life.

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fthnluv Offline OP
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If you are referring to this post that you made to me
Originally Posted By: MrBond
"I guess my confusion lies in the idea that maybe I didn't really know him at all, ever, and that he has always been a totally different person than I thought."

You've known him for 23 years. I'm sure you "know" him. But people change. It's how life is. We all evolve. The advantage you have is the fact that you have been with him for that long. What have his behaviors changed to? What does he like? Dislike? Use those facts to your advantage. Don't overly do it, but apply what you know here and there.


then I'm not really sure how you expected me to respond specifically to that. I took your advice to heart and will use the way I know him to help strengthen our R (for whatever it is now) when I have a chance in the future. I certainly didn't mean to insult you are make you think that I didn't care about what you said, I'm just not sure exactly how I should have responded to that. I guess a "thanks, I'll keep that in mind" could have been said and I'm sorry I didn't and gave you the impression that I don't want or need your advice, that's not the case at all.


Me- 40 H- 41
S8, D5, S4
M 19 y T 23
Bomb drop 6/2013
H asked for/filed for D 9/2014
22 yo OW discovered 9/19/14 they're engaged and living together
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fthnluv Offline OP
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Had another rough day today. Some days the depression or sadness is so much worse than others.

I went to church and spoke with my favorite fellow-church-goer. She is a sweet elderly lady who is praying for me and H and for the restoration of our M. She says she feels that something good is going to happen soon (I pray she's right, although "something" could be anything, I could use some good right now). She is just an amazing support and reminds me to stop the negative thinking and be a good example to my kids. I just adore her.

Came home and was able to take a nap for a bit while my parents helped me out with the kids. I've always thought it is odd that I rarely remember my dreams but I am happy about that these days, I have a feeling I would be having nightmares about H and the OW. I recently started taking melatonin before bed but I think I'm gonna back off of that because I am more aware of my dreams but I still don't remember them, really. Some people have reported crazy dreams with melatonin so I think I'll stop before they get too crazy.

Gonna try to do some work this week on getting ready to test to go back to college. I had started that before H announced he wanted a D and before I found out about the OW. I need to begin to move forward, if I can, to GAL.


Me- 40 H- 41
S8, D5, S4
M 19 y T 23
Bomb drop 6/2013
H asked for/filed for D 9/2014
22 yo OW discovered 9/19/14 they're engaged and living together
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fthnluv Offline OP
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I'm a mess today. If I'm not sleeping I am crying. Picturing H with the OW and doing all the things we used to do. Remembering all the times I made mistakes in what I said or how I reacted to something. I remember once, last year, we were driving and the song "Marry Me" came on and H told me the song reminded him of me. I remember being puzzled and sort of dismissing it. I regret that so much, I should have really listened to the words and been complimented and told him I loved that he still wanted to marry me. Now, he wants to marry HER. I'm just so sad about all I have lost. He WAS the H any woman would be lucky to have and somehow I feel like I let him get away. I want my H (the one I still believe is in there) back SO BAD. I just can't get over him and the love we had for each other. I want to tell him so much how much I miss him. I want him to miss me too. I'm just so sad today.


Me- 40 H- 41
S8, D5, S4
M 19 y T 23
Bomb drop 6/2013
H asked for/filed for D 9/2014
22 yo OW discovered 9/19/14 they're engaged and living together
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Hi fth,
Sorry to hear that you're feeling so bad. You are still just starting this, you will have days like this but they will become less and less as time goes on. I know how you feel because I have (and still do) feel the same way at times. I have found that, no matter how badly I wish for something or want something or even pray for it, I just don't have the power to make anyone feel anything. There's just no way to do it.

I never thought I would hear my W say she wanted a D. NEVER. She had come from a family where her parents went through a bad D and she swore to never put her kids or herself through that. Then one day (b-day) it all changed. Nothing we do, nothing we say can make them go back. We sure can make things worse but there just aren't any magic words that will make things better.

Just let the feelings pass through you. You can't stop them but you can manage your way through them.

We're all thinking of you fth. Just remember, someday this will all be a memory. You just need to get past today!

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Thanks Matt. I know what you say is true, some days are just harder to get through than others. I truly appreciate your support.

I texted H tonight to tell him we needed to discuss a school incident that came up with S8 and so he could talk to S8 about it (a fairly serious acting out incident, BTW). I then accidentally texted him back a text "he isn't going for custody" that I meant to text a friend and told him that the last text was sent to him on accident. H never responded. I then texted him again after S8 went to bed, almost 2 hours after it showed he read the text and he claims he "just got the text" and was going to bed and would call in the morning (which I advised doesn't work for me, other obligations). Why do they lie about everything? He clearly read the text 2 hours earlier and had plenty of time to call and talk to S8. Apparently what I am hearing is true, H isn't just running from me, he is running from being a father too. Ugh. It's so incredibly frustrating. I find myself wondering why I would even want this guy back? I don't, I guess, I want the man I loved for 23 years back, not this idiot.

Single parenthood... I didn't sign up for this. It's so incredibly hard. I thought it was hard when we were only separated due to work (or so I thought) but when it's clear that I am ALONE and do not even have a partner to rant to and console me and make decisions with it is just incredibly painful.


Me- 40 H- 41
S8, D5, S4
M 19 y T 23
Bomb drop 6/2013
H asked for/filed for D 9/2014
22 yo OW discovered 9/19/14 they're engaged and living together
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fth,
Oh, yes. They will amaze you with their incredible feats of selfishness. My W stopped being a mother to both our D's (14 and 19). First, she would "forget" to go to a parent meeting at school (after we had talked just 2 hours before it started), then she would tell me that I was a bad parent because I watched a horror movie with my 14 year old D. Another thing they do is treat the kids like they are younger or older than they are. She would treat my D14 like she was much younger and has pretty much just stopped caring about D19. My D19 said that it's like she thinks there is no way she's her D because, in her mind, she's WAY to young to have a 19 year old child!

Have you read the DB book? If not I suggest you take the time, it's worth it. You are still in denial and anger but you will get past that. Oh, and be careful about texts and sending the wrong ones. I did that too and got hurt by it. It's hard because our minds are fried I know but one wrong thing with an MLCer and they will blow sky high and never care about what they do.

Hang in there fth. You can and will make it through this!

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Originally Posted By: Matt165
fth,
Oh, yes. They will amaze you with their incredible feats of selfishness.
So sad and true. Ugh, and I fear this is only the beginning. I am preparing myself for when H backs out on his commitment to come to D4's upcoming birthday party. Won't that be fun? Explaining to all my family and his why he is not at his daughters birthday. Not sure how I'm gonna handle that, if I'm just going to say it was a work obligation he could not get out of at the last minute or tell them that he has filed for D and did not want to face everyone yet...

Yes, I am reading the Divorce Remedy book (I think that's the updated DR book, right?). I have almost finished it and I am trying to practice the LRT (at least in theory) but it's so hard to completely pull away and get a life when I am so sad and also still have some expectations on him actually participating in his kids lives. I guess I need to give those expectations up for a while. The funny (not really) thing is, he claims to love his kids and want to be the best dad to them but he's clearly not doing the work to be that and still putting his needs and feelings above theirs. I guess that's why I sent that text, I wanted to believe that he misunderstood because of the text sent in error afterwards but really, he saw the one that pertained to him, he just doesn't care enough to put forth any effort, even for his kids.


Me- 40 H- 41
S8, D5, S4
M 19 y T 23
Bomb drop 6/2013
H asked for/filed for D 9/2014
22 yo OW discovered 9/19/14 they're engaged and living together
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Well, tonight may have marked a turning point in H's relationship with S8. H texted wanting to talk with the kids (the littles are at my MIL's tonight, I only have S8) and I told S8 that Daddy wanted to call and talk to him. S8 refused to talk to him. I texted H back telling him that S8 did not want to talk. H texted back that he understood and asked me to tell S8 that he love's him. Of course, I replied (and did, of course). I assume he did call and talk to D4 and S3 at MIL's so that would be good, for them. This may mean nothing, it might just be that S8 is just not in the mood in general but considering that H has only called them once in the last 2 weeks I'm kind of hoping this hits him in the heart as to the reality of what a R, from across the country, and reaching out so infrequently, could look like. I'm hoping it does hit him some and he does not like it. I had NOTHING to do with S8's decision, and even warned S8 against it, telling him he might hurt H's feelings but he did not waver. In the midst of MLC it might mean nothing to H but maybe, somehow, someway, someday he might realize what he is doing and feel bad about it.


Me- 40 H- 41
S8, D5, S4
M 19 y T 23
Bomb drop 6/2013
H asked for/filed for D 9/2014
22 yo OW discovered 9/19/14 they're engaged and living together
Joined: Aug 2014
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fthnluv Offline OP
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Boy, this journey sure is a rollercoaster. I had really bad days then followed by a pretty good day a couple of days ago and then yesterday was pretty bad, emotionally, again. I normally like rollercoasters, but not this one!

When I last spoke to H he advised that his attorney was not going to move forward with the D until we could settle some of the financial issues. I knew hat there was another form that needed to be filed with the courts before the next stage would start and that I would need to respond to that in a timely manner. I had held off in retaining an attorney (although I spoke to multiple) in hopes that I wouldn't have to fight this. I told H that he needed to confirm that nothing new would be filed because if I got blindsided by more paperwork I would fight the date of separation. H said he would check and let me know. Today I decided to call the court and see if the next form, the "affidavit" had been filed. It was filed on 10/3, Friday, the very day I spoke to H. Why do they lie about EVERYTHING?

I called and retained the attorney I spoke to back in PA and he is going to get the paperwork and call and speak to H's attorney. He says that 99.9% of divorces are not granted until after all the martial assets and debts are figured out anyway so he does not think we have to be in a huge hurry but I don't want to lose the opportunity to contest the date of separation because in PA you cannot unilaterally D until you have been separated 2 years. I am contesting this for 2 reasons, 1. It is just plain wrong, and I have to live with this lie for the rest of my life and I want to say I did the right thing. 2. If we go by his date he can get the D before we get the tax situation settled and I will be stuck with a $20k bill that I cannot afford to pay. If we get the D delayed we will have the time to work that out with the IRS as we had been working on.

Ugh. I'm just so annoyed by all the lies.


Me- 40 H- 41
S8, D5, S4
M 19 y T 23
Bomb drop 6/2013
H asked for/filed for D 9/2014
22 yo OW discovered 9/19/14 they're engaged and living together
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Quote:
Why do they lie about everything?

If I gave you the reason would it change anything?

Quote:
I find myself wondering why I would even want this guy back? I don't, I guess, I want the man I loved for 23 years back, not this idiot.

“For better or for worse”…..everybody can do the for better part.

Maybe try calling your H “teacher” instead of idiot.

Quote:
I am ALONE and do not even have a partner to rant to and console me and make decisions with it is just incredibly painful

IMO, you are never ALONE…you may “feel” alone – a big difference.

Fthnluv,

I would like to ask you a question. Beside trying to outlast your H’s crisis …and beside working on the legal aspect of getting D’ed. What is YOUR plan for YOUR life for the next 30 days? Can you bullet it out for me?


"The difficulties of Life are intended to make us BETTER,not bitter".
"Fear is a prison, where you are the jailer. FREE YOURSELF!"
"Life is usually all about how you handle Plan B." - Jack3Beans
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Originally Posted By: ericmsant2

Maybe try calling your H “teacher” instead of idiot.

That's a tough one for me. Although I believe I will learn about myself and life through this life lesson I have a hard time attributing it to him as a teacher. To me, a teacher is a person I would look up to and who is knowingly trying to make me better and learn something. I do not think either of these things about H. Interesting perspective, though, I'll think on it.


Originally Posted By: ericmsant2
I would like to ask you a question. Beside trying to outlast your H’s crisis …and beside working on the legal aspect of getting D’ed. What is YOUR plan for YOUR life for the next 30 days? Can you bullet it out for me?

Also a hard question. I have been wrestling with the fact that I really do not know who I am, outside of his wife, mother to my kids and lover of God. That being the case, I don't know what my life needs to look like. I think if I had to figure it out I would say:

* Throw an amazing birthday party for D4 as I always do, and try not to worry about whether or not H will attend and how to deal with the R questions that will inevitably come up from all sides of the family.

* Do my testing and assessment to go back to college as I planned. Get enrolled in an online class or 2 for the next semester that I can.

* Continue looking for ways I can reduce my cost of living so that I can survive when H cannot afford to pay me this winter, which I believe will happen at some point.

* Be an awesome Mom to my kids and deepen and strengthen my bond in long-lasting ways with each of them.

* Continue with my bible study and deepen my relationship with the Lord so that I know I can fully rely on Him and His plan for my life, regardless of if H and I reconcile.

* Get some Christmas shopping done so that I already have a holiday to look forward to.

* Go out and have some fun at some point with my girlfriends. Just to let loose a little (if I can).

I think that's about all I can come up with now, and maybe even more than I can actually do.


Me- 40 H- 41
S8, D5, S4
M 19 y T 23
Bomb drop 6/2013
H asked for/filed for D 9/2014
22 yo OW discovered 9/19/14 they're engaged and living together
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Fthnluv

Quote:
I believe I will learn about myself and life through this life lesson I have a hard time attributing it to him as a teacher. To me, a teacher is a person I would look up to and who is knowingly trying to make me better and learn something. I do not think either of these things about H.

DB101 “change how you look at things”…..

IMO, everyone is a teacher of sorts. If you choose, you can learn a lot from just about everyone. You can learn what to do AND what NOT to do. You can learn how to be and also how NOT to be. IMO, I find that when I look or have to deal with people that are difficult – they teach me things….they teach me 1) that I do not want to end up like them 2) they teach me to learn to be more compassionate 3) they teach me that I am the one that controls how I feel.

So maybe…if you look at your H as a teacher, he will teach you things that YOU do not want to do or teach you who….YOU DO NOT WANT to be.

I also found that if you look at people as teachers – it really does help eliminate all of the ugly negative feelings you can have towards someone. Just my 2 cents.

Quote:
I have been wrestling with the fact that I really do not know who I am, outside of his wife, mother to my kids and lover of God. That being the case, I don't know what my life needs to look like.

My initial reaction is….do you remember what Cadet posted on your page when you first joined?

“you have been given the gift of TIME” ….use it wisely.

Right now, you have the time to figure out who YOU really want to be. It really is a gift, if you see it as such (i.e. “change how you look at things”).


Quote:
That being the case, I don't know what my life needs to look like.


Need to me sound like a “reaction”….. Have you considered reframing the above…..instead of “need”….use the word “want”. Cause honestly, that is the goal. What is it that YOU (and you alone) WANT you your life to look like. This is YOUR life Fthnluv….you can choose to change how it looks, how you want it to be. First though…comes to hard part….accepting that the only person you can control is YOU.

Lemme show you something….

Quote:
Throw an amazing birthday party for D4 as I always do, and try not to worry about whether or not H will attend and how to deal with the R questions that will inevitably come up from all sides of the family.

This ^^^ is not about YOU – it is about D4. Yes you may enjoy it and yes I suspect you feel great when you do it. It still is not about fthnluv the women – it is about fthnluv the mom. A big difference.

Quote:
Be an awesome Mom to my kids and deepen and strengthen my bond in long-lasting ways with each of them.

This is another fthnluv the “MOM” goal.

Quote:
Get some Christmas shopping done so that I already have a holiday to look forward to.

I suspect that this shopping is probably for family, kids, friends… or is it….fthnluv is gonna go shopping for HERSELF and get a nice pair of heels that are affordable but something that SHE wants for herself.

Quote:
Continue with my bible study and deepen my relationship with the Lord so that I know I can fully rely on Him and His plan for my life, regardless of if H and I reconcile.

Amen for that! Just remember….IMO, God helps those who help themselves. FTR, I am not questioning or challenging your faith or your R with God – I hope what I wrote did not come across that way.


Quote:
Continue looking for ways I can reduce my cost of living so that I can survive when H cannot afford to pay me this winter, which I believe will happen at some point.

I think this is a good goal. It may be a bit “reactionary”, which I understand. Even though it is a very good goal…I wonder how much of it is really about you. Now, personally, if reducing your cost of living is so that YOU can achieve the real goals….then this is not a goal. The end state (maybe a vacation weekend for you or a pedi, mani, etc.) is really the goal.


Quote:
Do my testing and assessment to go back to college as I planned. Get enrolled in an online class or 2 for the next semester that I can.

Now this seems to be about YOU. Kudos to you!

Quote:
Go out and have some fun at some point with my girlfriends. Just to let loose a little (if I can).

BINGO! “if I can”….believe it or not YOU can. It takes one step…one action…. “Choice” – choose to do it.

I know you are going through a lot, I know that this is not easy and is quite scary. Use this time wisely, use it to learn who fthnluv is. Yes, part of you will be mom, part of you will be employee or boss, part of you will be some ones partner (be it your H or not), part of you will be a daughter, sister, cousin, part of you will be God child….. who though is fthnluv apart from all of that? Once you find that women, once you fall in love with that women…….ohhhh……..life gets really good.

God Bless,
Eric


"The difficulties of Life are intended to make us BETTER,not bitter".
"Fear is a prison, where you are the jailer. FREE YOURSELF!"
"Life is usually all about how you handle Plan B." - Jack3Beans
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Thanks Eric. You are so right about looking at all people as teachers. I guess I hadn't really thought it through but the bottom line is that we do learn from everyone we encounter, in some way or another, as you said. Thanks for the perspective.

Originally Posted By: ericmsant2

My initial reaction is….do you remember what Cadet posted on your page when you first joined?

“you have been given the gift of TIME” ….use it wisely.

Right now, you have the time to figure out who YOU really want to be. It really is a gift, if you see it as such (i.e. “change how you look at things”).


Yes, I do remember that and it sunk in very deeply. In fact, I just quoted that exact comment to my girlfriend yesterday while talking. I just need to start actually DOING it. That is, using this time wisely. I think once I start I will also begin the healing process that will help me get to the point I need to be for myself AND for any R that may happen in the future, with whoever God leads me to. I do find myself wondering, if I am completely honest, that if I completely detach, pull away and focus on myself if I will lose the love I have for H and I guess that scares me. I can't imagine not loving him like I do now and always have but maybe I'm afraid of what that could look like and what that would mean for my wanting to reconcile our M. Maybe I'm afraid that I really won't stand by our vows and do the "for worst" part if I find out who I really am and like myself and don't NEED him anymore? Just some thoughts.

Originally Posted By: ericmsant2
First though…comes to hard part….accepting that the only person you can control is YOU.

So true. I am a bit controlling and a fixer by nature, so this is a hard lesson I am learning. H had always been a "go along to get along" kind of person so him not doing what I want him to do is new for me. Not that he shouldn't have his own free will, I'm just not used to us not being (as far as I could tell) on the same page.

You are also right about many of my goals being about my kids and me as a Mom. I guess I can't quite separate myself from the Mom person as who I am on my own yet. I will work on that because, yes, I deserve to take care of just ME and my own mental health and who I want to be, outside of my kids and others and H. Thank you for pointing that out. I never looked at it that way before. I truly appreciate your wise words, Eric, they make me really think and change my focus. I just love the support on this board!

Originally Posted By: ericmsant2
Once you find that women, once you fall in love with that women…….ohhhh……..life gets really good.

I'm really looking forward to that. I have been blessed in many ways and most people would be surprised that I do not really know who I am and certainly do not love her (yet) so I guess I really need to look at this as a journey, not only one that H has to go on, on his own, but that I MUST go on as well in order to be who I want to be and who I need to be to be a whole person on my own, worthy of love that is given to me.


Me- 40 H- 41
S8, D5, S4
M 19 y T 23
Bomb drop 6/2013
H asked for/filed for D 9/2014
22 yo OW discovered 9/19/14 they're engaged and living together
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if I am completely honest, that if I completely detach, pull away and focus on myself if I will lose the love I have for H and I guess that scares me.

FAITH. TRUST.

We tend to be afraid of what we cannot control. Learning to ACCEPT that loss of control is one of the hardest lessons in life – at least IMO. Have you prayed about it? Have you truly let go and let God? Maybe start by truly and really leaving him in God’s hands for now.

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I can't imagine not loving him like I do now and always have but maybe I'm afraid of what that could look like and what that would mean for my wanting to reconcile our M. Maybe I'm afraid that I really won't stand by our vows and do the "for worst" part if I find out who I really am and like myself and don't NEED him anymore?

More FEAR…. What really stood out to me was the use of the word “NEED”… In healthy R’s you should not base being with someone on NEED. It should be a WANT. Think about it….do you really want someone that just pays bills, fixes stuff around the house, give YOU what you NEED only and accepts whatever YOU feel like giving HIM? To me, that is a one sided R. A lot of people come here and the M’s were never really healthy to begin with (I count myself in that group). If you really love him, you can still love him EVEN if he is being a butt head. You may not like him per se.

Trust me, you really WANT someone to WANT you – not NEED you.

So let me ask another question…..

How do YOU FEEL love?

Be as specific as possible. For example, when my fiancé spends the time to listen to me about what is going on my life, when she stops what she is doing and pays attention – we’ll then to me…I feel love.

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I am a bit controlling and a fixer by nature, so this is a hard lesson I am learning.

A lot of people are. It really is a b*tch to try and change the behavior. It can be done though. It really can. Are you ready to do what it takes to change it. Change it for YOU not for YOUR H.

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Not that he shouldn't have his own free will, I'm just not used to us not being (as far as I could tell) on the same page.

IMO, a good marriage is about sharing control. About passing control back and forth with each other. It flows…like water. Accepting that both parties will change, will grow – not always at the same time. I also believe that you can have a good marriage and still get D’d. Yep, I know this is a divorce busting web site and I personally do not agree with divorce; however, I have learned to accept that everyone has a God given right to live the way THEY choose to. So instead of trying to control them/it, I accept that people do things, say things….that I may not agree with. I also give thanks for what I have TODAY – for tomorrow I may not be here.

An older poster who I have a great deal of respect for once said to me…….

Some people will be in your life forever, some will be there for a season…or even sometimes for several seasons….. accepting and enjoying what you do have, while you have and also giving people the freedom to be who they want to be…..that is the key.

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most people would be surprised that I do not really know who I am

I’m not. It is a journey fthnluv…really a journey…no different than your M or your R with God. It takes time. Right now…this is YOUR time.

God Bless,
Eric


"The difficulties of Life are intended to make us BETTER,not bitter".
"Fear is a prison, where you are the jailer. FREE YOURSELF!"
"Life is usually all about how you handle Plan B." - Jack3Beans
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Originally Posted By: ericmsant2

We tend to be afraid of what we cannot control. Learning to ACCEPT that loss of control is one of the hardest lessons in life – at least IMO. Have you prayed about it? Have you truly let go and let God? Maybe start by truly and really leaving him in God’s hands for now.

I am working on letting go and letting God take care of him (and me and my kids). Clearly I am not there yet, it is definitely something I need to concentrate prayer on more.


Originally Posted By: ericmsant2
Trust me, you really WANT someone to WANT you – not NEED you.

I agree. It makes me so sad that he no longer wants me. I once told him that I feel like that Cheap Trick "I want you to want me"...

Originally Posted By: ericmsant2
How do YOU FEEL love?

Not really sure. I think, going by the Love Languages I have found that I am a Quality Time gal. I want to spend time with the person I love, no matter what we are doing (of course, if it's somewhere alone and exotic that's even better). I also am a Words of Affirmation person. Words, particularly in songs just get to me every time. When H would text in the past and tell me he loves me or just "good morning" it meant the world to me.

Thanks again for the insight, Eric. I truly appreciate people like you getting me on the right path.


So, today was an ok day. It started off as a "going to be fun Mommy and S8 day" but then I got an email from H with his propositions for the D agreement (financial stuff from alimony to child support to life insurance to bank accounts... and many "terms" that I do not like) and it came right when we were waiting for our movie to start and put me in a funk. I advised that this was stuff that I needed to run by my lawyer and then we should talk in person because much tone is lost in written translation. Then later we traveled to a nearby city to meet with my sister and her family to go see the band For King and Country play at their church. The concert was AWESOME and really got me back out of my funk.

So, here's the question of the day for you all... H says he "can't make it to D4's party" but he wants to come the following weekend. I know that he does not want to come because he does not want to face both our families and tell them his decision to D me. I am generally well liked by all sides of the family and have been seen as somewhat of a saint these last nearly 2 years taking care of the 3 kids on my own while he worked out of state. People, on both sides are not going to like his decision and many will tell him so. H does not want to deal with that and I know it.

I was thinking of texting him later today and telling him that we can simply move D4's party to the weekend he wants to be here. Then, the ball is in his court and if he still will not come it will be obvious that it is not the date, it is the above reasons. I'm struggling with letting him make a decision (for whatever reason is in his head and his "reality") that will hurt D4's feelings (major Daddy's girl) and H in the long run (you can't get these events back) and with letting him do what he wants and deal with the lifelong consequences.

Also, if I do not suggest the party date change and just let him not come to her party, how do I explain his absence to family and friends that will be here without lying? Next to none of these people know we are separated now and he has filed for D (and certainly not about him living with OW). I could tell the truth, that he has filed for divorce and did not feel comfortable coming to the party but, as I still want to reconcile in the future, I want to make sure that what I say does not come back to bite me in the rear later. I *could* tell him he needs to contact his side of the family prior but he won't do it and I know it. He lets me do his "dirty work".

Any and all suggestions are greatly appreciated. Thanks so much!


Me- 40 H- 41
S8, D5, S4
M 19 y T 23
Bomb drop 6/2013
H asked for/filed for D 9/2014
22 yo OW discovered 9/19/14 they're engaged and living together
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So, I texted H about changing the date for D4's birthday this morning. He called this afternoon and we talked for about an hour and lots was said. I'm going to write much of it down, if for no other reason than journaling.

H admitted that the date is not the issue. He does not want to be at a birthday party facing our families with this decision. I begged him to reconsider as it means so much to his little Daddy's girl. I explained that I would tell my family to be on their best behavior with H and that if they are not they would be the ones to leave as it is most important, for the kids, that we do these things together, amicably and as friends one day. He agreed with that but stated that I could not control people and he didn't want to deal with their barbs and I told him that so many people (including me) say we would die for our kids and that taking a barb here or there is nowhere close to that. He stated "I do take barbs, every day, from myself, the hardest one to hear them from" to which I responded that those are his conscience or God talking to him because he knows in his heart that this is the wrong decision.

I told him to let me know for sure ASAP because I may need to talk to my family before the party if he will be here and asked him how he wanted me to explain his absence if he does not come. H stated that I could either tell them that he had to work or that I could tell them that we are D'ing. I told him that I will not lie for him and that if I am forced to tell his family of his decision I will tell them that we are separated and H has filed for divorce and that I do not want one and ask them to pray for us. If asked more about it I plan to simply say "H says he has been unhappy for a long time, I did not know that, he thinks he will be happier apart and living in PA". I told H that I have no intention of telling people about OW as I do not want to make him look bad and make it harder for him to return one day. He didn't argue or agree with my statement and is slightly reconsidering coming to her party.

We also discussed what he wants to do when he does come to see the kids as he raised the concern that he does not want to stay at our home or spend time with me. I told him that I would never keep the kids away from him but that it really seems too early to take them away from me and leave me alone. His wishes (both prior to now and still expressed for the future) were for us to function as a family when he was in town as much as possible (his words were "I don't see my time at home looking much different than it has for the last 6 months" when we were still together and going through M counseling) and him completely changing that to traditional visitation hurts a lot. I realize that I will likely have to allow that one day, and, frankly, even if he chooses it this time I will have to allow it but it hurts. I told him that the only reason to do it the other way is to save H's feelings alone, it is not in the best interest of our kids, and that if he continually puts his feelings above his kids best interests I will have to look at the way I deal with him in other areas keeping this fact in mind. If he puts himself above the kids always why would I think he would do any differently when it comes to financial or other matters?

He also told me that he does not like to see me or talk to me on the phone because it hurts him and me too much. I told him that it hurts me too, especially when I want him so badly and he does not want me and that I am jealous that he has OW to provide him love and comfort while I am all alone in mine. He says this is one of the main reasons he does not want to do the whole "act like a family as we always have" routine, that would require him spending time with me. I'm sure that that is part of the reason I DO want to do it. I guess I keep thinking that if he sees that I am the person he always wanted me to be (or even better) that he will recommit to our family. I hate to admit that but I know it's true. He asked how long we would need to act that way and I told him that we would need to take that as it comes. I guess there is a difference between still doing holidays and birthdays together and making each visitation a family affair. I guess I am asking too much of that. I'm just not ready to be left behind.

At one point I told him that he is not being the kind of man who I want to be the father figure in my kids life, right now. His character and selfishness is not the kind of role model I want for them. I later apologized for that and told him that although I disagree with the choices he is making now and the selfishness he is displaying, I truly believe that the man I loved for 23 years is still in his heart and that THAT man IS the man I want to be the father for my kids.

He told me that he was surprised that I am not letting go of him. I asked him why he would say that, as, as late as Valentine's Day of this year in his card to me he was thanking me "for being the fighter that you are" why would he think I would give up now? He stated that I had told him that if he cannot be the father to my kids that they needed I would find someone who would (I did tell him this in an argument once, but then thought it through and apologized) and also that I had given him (apparently in another argument) until the end of July to make a decision (I don't remember that) and also that we were fighting all the time. I pointed out that we only fought a lot last year (when he was being a total jerk and I had a migraine that, literally, lasted from June to November) and that this year the ONLY thing we argue about is his commitment to our marriage. He was also surprised that the revelation of OW did not push me over the edge to give up. I told him that that one surprised me too but I stated that I will not give up until God gives me some nudge to do so and that so far God is telling me to hold on. I told him that I was sorry if that bothered him but that He is greater than both of us and that if His plan is for us to go through this for some reason before reconciling He is stronger than either of us and I will continue to do what I feel He is telling me to do.

H told me he has a lot to process from this conversation and would get back to me likely tomorrow night on his final decision about coming to D4's party. I still doubt that he'll come but I am hoping, for both her sake and his.


Me- 40 H- 41
S8, D5, S4
M 19 y T 23
Bomb drop 6/2013
H asked for/filed for D 9/2014
22 yo OW discovered 9/19/14 they're engaged and living together
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fth,
I understand that you are telling your H how you feel. I know that you are still hoping that you can somehow show your H that what he is doing is "wrong", that if you can just make him see that he is hurting his kids, you, the family, etc. than he will "see" that he is making a mistake and stop and come back. IT WON'T WORK. It doesn't matter if you are exactly right in what you say. He has a long way to go before he is even close to coming through his MLC. All you are doing when you say the things that you are is applying "pressure" on him. He will run from pressure every time.

As for him changing his mind about acting "like a family" when he comes home, going to birthday parties, etc. This is common. Now that he has told you that he wants a D and that he is leaving and that he has another W and you didn't just up and die or kill yourself or whatever, he is going to totally stop having any care about you or his old life. My W did the same thing. Once she told me what she wanted and the world didn't end or God didn't strike her down, she started no longer caring to keep up "appearances". He is relived that he is finally going to get to do what he wants and he is going to pull farther away now, not come closer.

When you talk to your H and say the things you did here, you aren't DBing, fth. In fact you are doing the opposite. I'm not putting you down for it at all. I did the same thing for a long time. But you have to stop doing this when you talk to him. This isn't the first talk you have had like this with him and if you look at it honestly, things are not only not any better, they are actually worse. You really need to stop and reread the DB basics. When you remind him how "wrong" he is, you are only driving him farther away. When you show him how he is hurting his kids, you are driving him farther away.

He is doing everything you say...he is putting himself before his kids, he is breaking his vows, he is doing all the bad things you say. But by telling him that is what he is doing you aren't helping anything. Your H is telling you this himself when he says he "..doesn't like talking to you because it hurts too much". He knows what he is doing is wrong and he doesn't like being reminded of this and will totally stop talking to you at all if it keeps going the same way.

I know how much you are hurting fth. I know you just want to say the right words and make your H see the light and turn around and come back to you and his family. There just aren't any words that can do this. Basics fth! Remember the basics.

You can and will get through this fth. I know it hurts, I know it isn't right or fair. But you need to start doing things that will help YOU get to where you need to be. The sooner you leave your H to work things out himself, the sooner YOU will start to move forward with your own life.

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Originally Posted By: Matt165
He has a long way to go before he is even close to coming through his MLC. All you are doing when you say the things that you are is applying "pressure" on him. He will run from pressure every time.

I know, in my head, that this is true. I guess I have a hard time reconciling what is typical for a MLCer and what God and faith can do. God *can* change this and change his heart in an instant. I find myself fighting this belief and not wanting to start speaking it to take another 3-5 years, if ever, to wait through if it could change tomorrow. You know the whole "speak it into existence" theory, I don't want to speak many more years of this if God could change it tomorrow. Of course, if that is His plan it will be whether I am prepared for many years or not. See how I do that? I convince myself one thing and then exactly the opposite...

Originally Posted By: Matt165
he is going to pull farther away now, not come closer.

This is so true. He will pull away so as not to have to deal with me any more than he has to. I realized while thinking on this that I am so NOT doing a 180 here, he is used to me talking until I am blue in the face, trying to get him to understand where I am coming from to the point where he agrees it is best too. He has told me more than once that this annoys him and he feels "browbeaten" and I need to stop this at once. I can deal (sort of) with him making mistakes HE will regret, it's when he hurts our kids that I have a really hard time letting go.

Originally Posted By: Matt165
When you talk to your H and say the things you did here, you aren't DBing, fth. In fact you are doing the opposite. You really need to stop and reread the DB basics. When you remind him how "wrong" he is, you are only driving him farther away. When you show him how he is hurting his kids, you are driving him farther away.

You are right about this too, as I stated above. I will re-read the DR book. I think I need to review the LRT and infidelity sections and I know I am not following the LRT because I am clearly still pursuing him.

Originally Posted By: Matt165
"..doesn't like talking to you because it hurts too much". He knows what he is doing is wrong and he doesn't like being reminded of this and will totally stop talking to you at all if it keeps going the same way.

Right again. I guess I hoped that if he talked to me and felt bad enough he would realize his errors and change his mind. I've gotta stop that!

Originally Posted By: Matt165
But you need to start doing things that will help YOU get to where you need to be. The sooner you leave your H to work things out himself, the sooner YOU will start to move forward with your own life.
Yes, I do need to start working on me, and not just as it relates to a WAS and DBing and MLC. I need to figure out what I need to do to discover who I am and what I like and who I want to be.

Once again, thank you Matt. You have such a way of getting me to think.


Me- 40 H- 41
S8, D5, S4
M 19 y T 23
Bomb drop 6/2013
H asked for/filed for D 9/2014
22 yo OW discovered 9/19/14 they're engaged and living together
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fth,
Please don't be too hard on yourself. What you are going through is one of the hardest things you will ever go through. It isn't fair, it isn't right, it just is. I have been much closer to God since all this started as my W lost interest in church a few years ago and I just went along (funny how when you start to look back you see how you yourself allow other people to change you without even realizing it's happening!). One thing I have told myself is that God is on his own timeline. There is something I need to learn in all this and until I learn what that is, it will continue. I also remind myself that God does always answer our prayers, just not always the way we hope.

Do the work for you and your kids. Do it because it's what YOU need whatever the outcome with your H. Also, keep in mind that underneath it all, your H isn't really happy. Happy people don't do what he is doing. He is in pain and looking to make that pain stop and the more we try and "help" them stop the pain, the more they will resent us as we are who they have chosen to blame. The best thing you can do is just get out of the way and let him learn on his own how wrong what he is doing is. I doubt his new R with OW is going to last, they usually don't. The best thing you can do is get out of the picture and if he still doesn't become "happy" he can't really blame you if you aren't around.

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fthnluv Offline OP
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Matt, you are so right about remembering that it is on God's timeline, not ours. If ever. I recently told my sister that this is H's journey to go on but, clearly, it is also MINE. I need to learn a few more lessons too. I have already learned many things that will make me a much better person and W to whomever God leads me to one day.

Originally Posted By: Matt165
Also, keep in mind that underneath it all, your H isn't really happy. Happy people don't do what he is doing. He is in pain and looking to make that pain stop and the more we try and "help" them stop the pain, the more they will resent us as we are who they have chosen to blame. The best thing you can do is just get out of the way and let him learn on his own how wrong what he is doing is.

This is a truth I am learning too. I was just saying to my favorite sweet lady at church this morning that I am struggling with the whole idea of holding on to hope for my M to H and also believing with my whole heart that God is working for my good in this. I think it feels to me like if I let go and let God direct my path, no matter where it leads, that somehow it feels like I am giving up on the hope and faith that that path WILL lead to a restored M to H. Giving up on MY hopes and dreams of a life with H to defer to God's plan is still scary to me.

Off to take care of these 3 little blessings... I need to remind myself of my blessings often as I can often only see my pain.


Me- 40 H- 41
S8, D5, S4
M 19 y T 23
Bomb drop 6/2013
H asked for/filed for D 9/2014
22 yo OW discovered 9/19/14 they're engaged and living together
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 910
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I think it feels to me like if I let go and let God direct my path, no matter where it leads, that somehow it feels like I am giving up on the hope and faith that that path WILL lead to a restored M to H. Giving up on MY hopes and dreams of a life with H to defer to God's plan is still scary to me.


Fth,

It is really scary stuff, this letting go. We become so attached to our original plans, and what we just knew our future would look like.

Our H made promises to us, and to God. And in their "brokenness", they broke those promises and vows.

To let go, as I learned here....does not necessarily mean the same as giving up. It does not mean there is no hope.

It means you love him enough to let him figure himself out.

The hope is that he returns a whole person. That he comes to terms with who he is and what has happened. And he wants to work together on a new, better R.

I know you want to help him, fth. I am the same way.

I kept wanting to "lead" my H down his path. Show him how to face his past. I stopped short of chasing him around the house with self-help books, but not by much.

Fth, we can't lead them. This is a journey that we were not invited to go on. He has to do this on his own. He just has to. That's the only way this works, for him to see it through to the end and come out whole.

When I first realized H was in MLC, I prayed and prayed for my marriage to be restored. I bargained that I would learn how to communicate better. That I would promise to be more patient. That I would listen and fix everything he complained about if we could just have another chance.

Then my eyes really opened to the whole thing, this MLC.

As I realized this was truly a marathon, and H was not going to simply "snap" out of it, I began to really look inward. I'm still looking, and still learning.

My prayers have since changed. I can't control what happens in my M. I can't control what H thinks or does. I can control me. I could pray for my M to be reconciled. It's bigger than that, though.

What I learned, for me, was that I would rather see my H become the man he is meant to be, than have him turn around and come back without learning what he must. To face his demons so he can live a life of peace. So he can become the man God intends, regardless of me. I wouldn't want him to be deprived of the gift of wholeness.

I had to decide to love him enough to let him go. Do I still hope we reconcile? Oh, yes. Very much so. Before that happens, there must be growth.

So, you and I are in a similar stage, fth. I believe, with everything that I am, that what happened was meant to happen. I believe that if H is meant to come back, he will. I am focusing on myself, my kids, learning who I want to be, in "hopes" that one day, my R with H will benefit from my growth. That I can be a better wife going forward. That I can learn lessons I'm supposed to learn.

Regardless of H, these lessons are for me. That I will be better, no matter what the future holds.

There are no guarantees that your H or mine will return. That isn't up to us.

If we use this time we are given, to work on ourselves....really dig deep.... We cannot lose.

It is so important, fth. Keep the focus on you.

(((((((Hugs)))))))). I'm in this with you, fth.

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Originally Posted By: Shining

Fth, we can't lead them. This is a journey that we were not invited to go on. He has to do this on his own. He just has to. That's the only way this works, for him to see it through to the end and come out whole.
I like how you say this is a journey we are not INVITED to go on. I never looked at it like that. It's like he's taking a trip and says "no, you can't come". I can't change that and he will go alone. He must go alone... And I must go on a journey too, alone. I must go on a journey to discover who I am, without him and not just as a Mom either. I am coming to realize that this really is the way it MUST be.


Originally Posted By: Shining

What I learned, for me, was that I would rather see my H become the man he is meant to be, than have him turn around and come back without learning what he must. To face his demons so he can live a life of peace. So he can become the man God intends, regardless of me. I wouldn't want him to be deprived of the gift of wholeness.

I had to decide to love him enough to let him go. Do I still hope we reconcile? Oh, yes. Very much so. Before that happens, there must be growth.

This is so true too. He cannot come back as he is now, or even how he was. I cannot be the person I have been and was. We BOTH need to use this time to grow and hopefully one day we will grow back together but I need to learn that I will be ok, even if we do not reconcile.

Is it really just a *decision* to let him go and let God handle it? I know I need to do that and somehow I feel like I can't. It's like the image in Titanic where Rose lets Jack go and he dies. I guess I figure if I let go of H he will not make it without me. Not that H is giving me any other choice, in fact he's pushing my hands off his and saying "let me go". I need to work on this. I think I'll begin to pray that God helps me let him go.


So, I finally told my parents about H filing for D tonight. My Dad is mad but supports me in standing for our M and says he will welcome H with open arms should he choose to come around for D4's party or anything else. That is a relief, because my Dad tends to get a little testy and speak what is on his mind (I wonder where I got it?). He will support me in welcoming H so that is a huge relief. I also told my Grandmother (who I am VERY close to, and she knew some of what was going on prior to D filing) and she also supports me and H completely and was telling me about 2 different sets of family friends where they split and reconciled after anywhere from 3-7 years and are still married to this day, happily. It seems that most everyone I tell my story to tell me of someone they know that has reconciled. I'm not sure if that is God trying to give me hope or if it's just the law of averages...


Me- 40 H- 41
S8, D5, S4
M 19 y T 23
Bomb drop 6/2013
H asked for/filed for D 9/2014
22 yo OW discovered 9/19/14 they're engaged and living together
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Fth,

Quote:

This is so true too. He cannot come back as he is now, or even how he was. I cannot be the person I have been and was.


Exactly. Because that didn't work. With 2 "whole" people that have the desire to work on the R, it is the deepest, most fulfilling M that can come from that.

Quote:
We BOTH need to use this time to grow and hopefully one day we will grow back together but I need to learn that I will be ok, even if we do not reconcile


As far as BOTH of you using the time...Ideally. Yes. We can hope for our H's to do the same. They may not. But that is not within your control.

Besides, even if we told them exactly what to do, unless and until they are ready to receive that information, and work through it, it will not mean diddly to them.

They have to first realize the need. Then they have to decide to do the work. And they have to do this on their own. The best thing is to stay out of their way.

The energy focusing on whether they do or they don't face their demons, is a waste of headspace that could be used on YOU. So many on this board wished they started their GAL and working on themselves sooner. Many regret wasting time on H. Really do it, fth. You will not regret it.

"You" are the best investment you could make right now.

Quote:
Is it really just a *decision* to let him go and let God handle it? I know I need to do that and somehow I feel like I can't.


Fth, I have asked the same thing.

It is not as easily done by making a simple decision. It is a process. It's also one of the most difficult parts to this. It will take a long time.

You're discovery of ow is still very new for you. What you are thinking, feeling, wondering are all to be expected. All of us here who learned of ow/om have been exactly where you are. And fth, I believe you are exactly where you should be in this.

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I guess I figure if I let go of H he will not make it without me.

I know you want to fix him. I did, too. It's what I've always done. Fix things. Make it all better.

It was written to me once, that he has to do this for himself, in order to learn the valuable part of his own journey. It is his. If you tried to fix it for him, even if he came back for a while, he would have skipped over some important steps along the way.

You want him. Of course you do. To me, truly loving him doesn't mean you want him with you at all costs. Loving him is stepping aside for a while, and allowing him to focus on himself, while you focus on YOU.

The truth is, fth, you don't want him back as he is now. You could tactically draw him toward you, but it would not succeed. Not long term. You would end up exactly where you are now, possibly stalling any chance of reconciling.

He has to get through all of it. He has to make a choice to work on the M from a place of health. You have to make the choices from a place of strength.

Even then, there are no guarantees. Becoming the best fthnluv you can be, gives your M the best possible chance. I know it's hard. You can do this.

Take care of fth. There is no better place for your attention. smile

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Thanks Shining. Your words are so true and also encouraging.

Today, I will begin to GAL. I am committing to doing at least 1 small thing, each day, to help me towards a goal for ME. Today, I am going to resume my math practice I had been doing so that I can do the assessment test to get back into school next semester.

I think doing long division and exponents is a good way to keep my mind off of H anyway...

Hope everyone has a great day!


Me- 40 H- 41
S8, D5, S4
M 19 y T 23
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Did some ME work yesterday. Went back into my online practice for math assessment and made some progress. Had been 31 days since I had done it last, it told me, so I had to relearn some of the stuff again. At least I did something for me and my life I have ahead of me.

Went to bible study today. Man, the study we are doing just hits home. REMIX is the word of the day... I thought my life was going along fine and now REMIX... let's see where this takes me.

Texted with H and he is not coming for D4's birthday party, but we already knew that. He is going to come next weekend instead which works ok because the kids have a 3 day weekend that date anyway. I asked if he was open to taking the kids to the pumpkin patch together and he said yes. That's good, better for the kids for us all to be together. I plan to not discuss anything regarding financial settlements or our R unless he brings it up. No pressure. I want him to want to spend time as a family, not run away. Even if we never reconcile it is best for the kids for us to do these things together as friends if we can.

Talked to my sister about this yesterday. She can't wrap her head around his decisions and says what he is doing doesn't make sense (I did not tell her about OW) and I told her that MLC does not make any sense, no matter how she tries she still will not understand or make sense of it, I still can't. I told her that the hallmarks of MLC (to me) are 180's in his personality and what used to mean something to him no longer does and complete selfishness. She's still trying to make sense of it and we know it doesn't make sense.

Onward and upward on MY journey!


Me- 40 H- 41
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22 yo OW discovered 9/19/14 they're engaged and living together
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Forgot to mention this: Had a sweet moment with S3 last night. As I was getting him out of the bath he was kissing me and trying to do something with my ears and he finally said "I want to speak in your ear" and then he whispered in my ear "I lub you". He did the same thing again this morning, I think he loved my reaction last night. I need to soak moments like these into my soul.


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Having a rough day today. Feeling hopeless and alone. I spent the morning shopping and preparing for D4's party and I just feel so sad that I am doing this all alone, for the first time without H's help. I miss him so much.

Then, when I got home there was a large package at my door. It was a present for D4 from H but he apparently had OW address it and take it to the post office. Just seeing her writing threw me into a loop of sadness. I'm not sure why seeing her writing hurts so much except that it is just more evidence that she exists in real life. And she knows about me, at least my name as the package was addressed to me. She doesn't REALLY know "about" me or even H, she has a man in crisis on her hands but I can't help but think that she addressed that package with glee, knowing I would see it and know it was her. Ugh. Why does this stupid thing hurt SO MUCH?

Oh, and to top it off, H got her a Frozen Elsa dress, from the Disney Store, which I have looked for months for and cannot find so I ended up buying her a handmade one on ebay. So, my gift is down the toilet and he looks like the hero. It's just wrong. He could have at least consulted me. I want to text him so badly and tell him how rude it was not to even run it by me and how he has ruined MY gift but I know it won't do any good and could do harm to him wanting to communicate with me.

I'm praying for some peace today. It was already an emotionally hard day and now it seems even worse. (and I'm beating myself up for being so down about such a small thing...)


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He doesn't communicate to you about the kids at all?


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Ignorance, yet knowledge.
Passion, yet serenity.
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H has called and spoke to our little kids 2x since he left on 9/23 (that's all the effort he has made, it's not as if he's tried and I would not let them talk), he has talked to S8 once (the other time S8 refused to talk to him). And no, he does not check in at all on them. I tried to talk to him about a situation with S8 at school last week but he didn't respond to my text until I was busy the next day and he did not/has not asked about it since. The only thing we have discussed about the kids at all is D4's party. I don't text him to call the kids more regularly (as I am trying minimal contact) and he doesn't try from his end to reach out.

H has been gone nearly 2 years (for work until 8/27/14 BD) and I have found that I can take care of the kids fine on my own. We DID talk about the kids every night before he decided he wanted to D but now he doesn't even pretend to care or make it a topic of conversation as before...


Me- 40 H- 41
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Ok, fellow DBers... I need to know how to handle this at my daughters party tomorrow:

If asked directly if there is OW, what should I say? My pastor says I cannot lie and I understand that but from a DBing standpoint I want to keep my odds of reconciling as high as possible and I understand to do that I possibly need to keep this quiet. I find myself wrestling with the right thing to do vs the smart thing to do.

As much as I would like to keep off this topic tomorrow, I can't. This is both our families and too many people already know about the D to keep the rest in the dark. MOST those that know of the D do not know about OW, I sort of danced my way around the truth to appease them but I can't do that anymore and claim to be a Christian who does not lie.

HELP!! All opinions welcome...


Me- 40 H- 41
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fth,

How about, "I'm sure you're asking out of concern for me and the kids, so thank you for that. As you can imagine, I'm not comfortable discussing my marital situation right now. This is D4 day, anyway."

No lie involved. Validate their concern....it's your right to tell them you don't wish to discuss it.

(((((Hugs)))))

Have a great party tomorrow. Keep your chin up, fth..... "When you hold your face up to the light, the shadows fall behind."

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"If asked directly if there is OW, what should I say? "

Just say "I appreciate your concern. I know you deeply care for our family. If you want to know if there is another woman, you'll have to ask my husband." Then smile and walk away.

"My pastor says I cannot lie"

He's not Jiminy Cricket. And besides who told you that you had to lie? You just don't need to tell anyone that he's got OW.

"As much as I would like to keep off this topic tomorrow, I can't."

Why? Are they holding you hostage? Are they demanding answers while putting a gun to your head? Don't be so dramatic. It's no one else's business but your own. You're not lying if you don't say anything.

"This is both our families and too many people already know about the D to keep the rest in the dark. MOST those that know of the D do not know about OW, I sort of danced my way around the truth to appease them but I can't do that anymore and claim to be a Christian who does not lie."

Again, no one told you to lie. RIght now you're going through the same thing that many LBS's go through. You "feel" the need to tell EVERYONE about how hurt you are, how wrongly you've been treated, etc. Calm those thoughts. All that's going to do is to have everyone you know have a bad opinion of your H and when he comes home, he'll have to deal with all of the damage that YOU caused.

You might as well have him wear a red A wherever he goes.


M-43 W-40
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Emotion, yet peace.
Ignorance, yet knowledge.
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Chaos, yet harmony.
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Tell they I m not comfortable or ready to talk about it.
Its non of your bizness
Ask my h

You don't have to answer. I think whoever brings it up at your d bday party is rude anyway.

And be careful what you tell others about your marriage


Me 43 ring off Oct 2014 (my ring back on Feb 2015)
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Thanks to each of you for your responses. As it turns out, the topic of our D and where H was was not brought up too often and when it was I was able to handle it with dignity and people respected that the party was not the time to get into too many details. D5's birthday party was a great success and she had a blast.

I did speak to several family members about the situation during the weekend (I had a house full, I think there were 11 here overnight!) and they fully support me and standing for our marriage. The overall reaction is one of shock (You guys? If ANYONE is meant to be together it is you!) and agreement that H is in MLC. They are all very religious people as well and they are praying for us to reconcile. It is nice to have support from both sides of the family.

H will be here later in the week to spend time with the kids. I am looking forward to seeing him and going to the pumpkin patch together and also dreading the very likely reality that he will want to spend as little time possible with me. He's told me that talking to me and seeing me hurts too much. It's going to be weird and hurt to be in town and have him take my kids without me. Last time I went out of town so it was easier in a way.

My goal this week: Do SOMETHING, proactive for ME and only me.


Me- 40 H- 41
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" I am looking forward to seeing him and going to the pumpkin patch together and also dreading the very likely reality that he will want to spend as little time possible with me."

That is your reality now. Why haven't you detached yet?


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Ignorance, yet knowledge.
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Originally Posted By: MrBond
That is your reality now. Why haven't you detached yet?


I'm not sure how to answer that question. I have read some on detachment and I feel like I have done some detaching. I found this information:

What is detachment?
Detachment is the:
* Ability to allow people, places or things the freedom to be themselves. I think I've done this.
* Holding back from the need to rescue, save or fix another person from being sick, dysfunctional or irrational. I've done this as well. But I still worry about H's choices because I still love him.
* Giving another person "the space" to be herself. Done this as well. I never reach out unless absolutely necessary but I do respond to him on the few occasions that H contacts me.
* Disengaging from an over-enmeshed or dependent relationship with people. I suppose I have not disengaged.
* Willingness to accept that you cannot change or control a person, place or thing. I've accepted this. I don't like it though...
* Developing and maintaining of a safe, emotional distance from someone whom you have previously given a lot of power to affect your emotional outlook on life. Working on this.
* Establishing of emotional boundaries between you and those people you have become overly enmeshed or dependent with in order that all of you might be able to develop your own sense of autonomy and independence. Working on this as well.
* Process by which you are free to feel your own feelings when you see another person falter and fail and not be led by guilt to feel responsible for their failure or faltering. I don't feel guilt or responsible for H's choices or failures. I realize this is a journey H must go on alone.
* Ability to maintain an emotional bond of love, concern and caring without the negative results of rescuing, enabling, fixing or controlling. I believe I have accomplished this as well.
* Placing of all things in life into a healthy, rational perspective and recognizing that there is a need to back away from the uncontrollable and unchangeable realities of life. Not sure what "back away" means here, I am putting H's MLC in perspective and taking this time to work on ME.
* Ability to exercise emotional self-protection and prevention so as not to experience greater emotional devastation from having hung on beyond a reasonable and rational point. I guess this one is a matter of opinion. I feel lead by God to stand for my marriage and I believe that God is telling me (at this point) that we will one day reconcile. Until God gives me a different feeling/view/path to take I will "hang on" to the vows I made and stick by them. This doesn't mean that I don't let him go and do the things H needs to do in the meantime. It just means that I won't give up until I believe God calls me to.
* Ability to let people you love and care for accept personal responsibility for their own actions and to practice tough love and not give in when they come to you to bail them out when their actions lead to failure or trouble for them. I think I did do this by not "bailing" H out for the negative consequences of what people will think or the sadness D5 has for his choice not to come to her birthday party.
* Ability to allow people to be who they "really are" rather than who you "want them to be." I understand this but I don't even think H knows who he really is right now. I want him to be what he claims to want to be and that is a man of God.
* Ability to avoid being hurt, abused, taken advantage of by people who in the past have been overly dependent or enmeshed with you. I'm working on this, obviously H's current actions still hurt and I think that's normal.

So, since I am about 2 months since H told me he wanted a D and 30 days from finding out about OW and still feel I am being called by God to not give up on H or our M (although I realize that it may go all the way to D and H's remarriage to OW in between) I'm not sure how much more detached I should be at this point.

I realize that not everyone will agree with my faith to stand for our marriage, in light of all the current circumstances but I am strong in my faith and my faith calls me to ignore the worldly circumstances and walk by faith alone. God clearly wants our M restored, that is very clear in His Word so if that is in His plan we may still need to go through all of this in order to become the people He wants us to be and have the M that He wants us to have. I also realize that God gives us free will and that H may never come around. If that is the plan I am quite sure that God will begin to give me that word and He will change my heart at that point and I will be able to completely let go and move on then.

Please, Mr. Bond, if you disagree please let me know. I can take it! Again, we may not agree on this but I know you come from a place of experience and I believe you have my best interest, as a whole person, in mind so I respect what you have to say.


Me- 40 H- 41
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Some things to consider when H is there:

1) Look FABULOUS all the time. It doesn't hurt to let him see how cute you are.

2) DO NOT CLING. Look happy and independent. Right now he needs to start worrying about losing you, if you pursue him then that thought will never enter his pea-brain.

3) If he is taking the kids to do something on his own, make sure when he picks them up that you are dressed up, with perfume, as if perhaps you were going on a date, and that you leave the house when the kids do - I don't care if you get in the car and drive around the block until he leaves, but just make it LOOK as if you might be going out on a date or dancing with girlfriends. If he asks you where you're going, give some vague answer ("Meeting a friend.... No, no one you know"). What you need is plausible deniability (that is, you really aren't dating or doing anything untoward) but leave enough mystery that he could IMAGINE that you might.

4) Be cheerful, upbeat, fun, sexy, flirtatious - it's ok to show him what he's missing.

5) At some point, I'd consider asking him point blank if OW is pregnant. If she's not, the question might just introduce some fear into his thought processes (because right now he's in fantasyland and hasn't thought that far ahead). If she IS pregnant, the sooner you know the better.

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It's not that I disagree. It's that you are "hoping" for a good time with your H. This shows you're still looking at him for your happiness. When you do that, if he doesn't meet your expectations of what you think he should do, you will be disappointed.

Detach your feelings from him. Not saying that you stop loving or care for him, but that you don't hinge your emotions on his actions. Got it?


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Ignorance, yet knowledge.
Passion, yet serenity.
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Kml, thank you for all your tips. I will try my best to be cheerful, fun,sexy and flirtatious and NOT CLINGY! Gonna do my best to act "as if" and that I am ok, or even better than ok.

Originally Posted By: kml
5) At some point, I'd consider asking him point blank if OW is pregnant. If she's not, the question might just introduce some fear into his thought processes (because right now he's in fantasyland and hasn't thought that far ahead). If she IS pregnant, the sooner you know the better.

Ugh. You are so right. I do have to do this. I need to know. Of course, he has lied about so much lately, even when asked point blank ("is there another woman?" "No") that I'm not sure that I can fully believe any answer he gives me. He claims that he only lies to me to "protect" me from hurt and I know he knows that this will hurt me very badly so I'm scared that he will lie and continue to hide the reality if it is actually true. I do need to ask though. Maybe not this week, depending on how things go at the pumpkin patch.

Originally Posted By: MrBond
It's not that I disagree. It's that you are "hoping" for a good time with your H. This shows you're still looking at him for your happiness. When you do that, if he doesn't meet your expectations of what you think he should do, you will be disappointed.

Yep, you are totally right. I am hoping that we have such a good time that he comes out of his MLC, repents and begs me to reconcile. THAT is the truth. No denying it. But, you are right, I need to detach and let go of my hopeful expectations so that I am protected, emotionally, when they (likely) do not happen. I understand where you are coming from now, and I agree and I'm glad you pointed it out so that I can reframe my expectations and actions and not get so down when my dream of an outing is not so dreamy. Thank you.


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He claims that he only lies to me to "protect" me from hurt


They all say this - but the truth is, he lies to protect HIMSELF from having to deal with the natural CONSEQUENCES of his action.

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So, dreading tomorrow when H comes "home" to be with the kids. He hasn't checked in with me or given me any information on when he will be here or when he is leaving or where he is staying. I only know he comes in tomorrow night and goes back east on Monday night. Not sure if he is coming here to our home to stay over any of those nights and, if not, when he will be here on Friday to do the pumpkin patch thing (and then high-tail it away from me, I'm sure). I want to reach out and ask him what the plans are so I can make my own but I'm trying to do a 180 here and having a precise schedule is what he is used to.

At this point I have made plans for Friday night and Saturday which can go into Sunday if I want them to. They are flexible, though, so if he wants to do something else as a family I can entertain that (not likely to happen).

I'm debating about Monday... 2 of the kids have school that day. I, of course, normally get up at 5:30 and get them off to school, take care of S3 and then pick them up from the bus, do homework, make dinner, baths, etc by myself. H says he would be available to do that. Part of me wants to "make" him, show him all the work I do each day that I resent that he's just leaving ALL to me for the rest of my life. The other part says to act nice and cool and friendly and ask him if he wants me to be here to help with all of that and go by what he says. The issue I have is, if he wants me to get up and get them off to school and then he leaves me alone for the day until I can help again with the afternoon/night stuff I think I will really resent that and feel used. Any opinions on how to handle that?

If you pray, please say a prayer that I handle myself in the best way possible on Friday and through any and all interactions with H this weekend. Thanks!


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Help! I checked into H's flight home tonight to see if his flight was on time and found that he has ANOTHER flight booked to come back to SFO from New Jersey for NEXT weekend as well. The big thing is, this flight is booked with the OW listed as a 2nd passenger... I am freaking out! Is he planning to bring OW here and introduce our kids to her this soon? The little ones don't even know that he wants a divorce yet and I'm REALLY not ready to have them met "her"... H does not know that I still get his flight notifications so he does not know that I know about this other flight and that I have now found out who the OW is. I assume he will bring it up to me sometime this weekend (on second thought, IF he shows, he may not even show and he may just have not had the guts to tell me that yet) and I'm not sure the best way to react to all of it.

The really ironic thing is, I found her Facebook profile (the little I can see of it) and she is younger (no surprise) and looks totally different than me (dark hair and eyes, too much makeup, long extensions hair, typical of what a man in MLC would want). She is beautiful, I will admit that. But, here's the ironic thing: her only "likes" she has is for Godvine and the church near where they are living. Ummm... if you are claiming to be a Christian don't you know that he can't have a marriage with you and still be in God's grace? I just want to sit them both down and talk some sense into them!

So, how should I handle all of this? Obviously I can't tell him I know about who she is and their flights back here, and I can't *really* assume that he is coming to see his family or the kids (they *could* just be going to San Francisco) but I think the reality is obvious. In fact, if he is here on Halloween and doesn't bother to come see his kids or even let them know he is in town he is in even a worse head space than I thought.

They say it gets much worse before it gets better. Now I'm just praying that she is not pregnant, it seems like that is the only thing that could hurt me even worse at this point. I'm certainly ready for things to get better, or easier.

Thanks!


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Quote:
But, here's the ironic thing: her only "likes" she has is for Godvine and the church near where they are living. Ummm... if you are claiming to be a Christian don't you know that he can't have a marriage with you and still be in God's grace?


You are assuming she knows you two were together when she started up with him - he may have been telling her he was already in the process of a divorce or some such other BS.

Who knows what he's thinking? Maybe she just wants to come out and visit friends and family of her own over Halloween. Or maybe he is just that big of an idiot that he thinks he can announce the divorce to the kids this weekend and bring her out the next. Or maybe she whined and kicked like a little child so he promised he would take her to SF the next weekend, who knows?

I wouldn't let on that you have this information (so that you don't lose a potentially valuable source of future info). You may just have to sit back and see what he says this weekend.

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I completely assume that she did not know we were still together when they got together. When I asked him (when I found out about her) "Does she know that you are married?" he said "She knows I am getting a divorce." which I think is his way of not saying that he has always presented himself as separated.

I doubt she is coming to visit family and friends of her own, she's from VA and they live in PA. She doesn't have anyone on the west coast that I know of. Of course, that *could* be possible.

Given her age (I think she's about 25-28 from her looks), she very well could have whined and kicked like a baby. Who knows. It just shocks me how fast he is moving with her...


Me- 40 H- 41
S8, D5, S4
M 19 y T 23
Bomb drop 6/2013
H asked for/filed for D 9/2014
22 yo OW discovered 9/19/14 they're engaged and living together
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Quote:
Now I'm just praying that she is not pregnant, it seems like that is the only thing that could hurt me even worse at this point.


You might as well ask him. Knowledge is power.

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Originally Posted By: kml

You might as well ask him. Knowledge is power.


Ugh. I know... or wait to see if I get to see her next weekend... I gotta ask, I think. Not that I expect to believe his answer fully.

Spoke to H tonight after he landed. We will meet at the pumpkin patch in the morning and then he will take the kids to his Mom's for the weekend and then he will bring them back and go do the pictures with the kids on Sunday afternoon and then go back to his Mom's overnight and come the next morning to get the kids to school and go meet to have coffee with his Dad.

Going back and forth to his Mom's takes an hour each way and that frustrates me from a financial standpoint. Winters are always tough in his business and I am scared about where that will leave us (not H) this winter with his other "priorities". He told me that he is not worried about it and that "I haven't been for a couple of years"... so not true, apparently he forgot last winter already.

I talked more than I should but did as much as I could with grace. There was a point of contention when he told me that he was planning on letting S8 ride in the front seat of his rental car. Technically, he is old enough in our state but realistically, he is very small (in the 3rd percentile for his age) and I am concerned that he could be hurt more in an accident in the front seat. I've always been sort of a car-seat nazi, making sure they are safe is my #1 priority. I told him that that will not fly and suggested we just trade cars for the weekend, he balked at that because I'm not on the rental agreement and what if I get in an accident? I told him that I was just not willing to budge on the safety of our kids. He then stated he would see if the seats could fit in the back and, if not, he would trade cars. I wish that didn't come up as an issue because it showed more of the old side of me that he does not like but I had to weigh that against my concerns about safety and the mama bear in me won. Oh well, hopefully I can show more grace tomorrow and the rest of the weekend.

S8 told me tonight that if Daddy did not want me to go with them he did not want to go with Daddy. I told him he could not do that as it would hurt Daddy's feelings and he needs to spend time with Daddy. I told H that we needed to sit down and have "the talk" with the kids because it was confusing for them, I am sweeping everything under the rug for the little ones but they see things too and that he needs to talk to them about it with me there. I plan to let him take the lead on this, with us discussing it beforehand so that he doesn't say things like "WE decided we don't want to be married anymore" when that is not true so that I don't jump in and say "No, YOU decided you don't want to be married any more, Mommy still wants to be". Not good for the kids so we need to come up with another way to explain it where I don't take on the blame for the D and they aren't damaged by an argument about it. I also said that we need to get this talk done so that S8 can no longer try to play us against each other, he needs to know that he will have visitation with his Dad and I need to know that he will go so that I can, one day, get a life of my own. H agreed.

I asked him about when he would be coming back to town again. He said he didn't know... lie! Maybe he IS just taking OW to San Fran for the weekend and not seeing the kids after all. Sort of a crappy move but better than trying to introduce OW to my kids at this early stage. I guess we will see what/if/when he says this weekend.


Me- 40 H- 41
S8, D5, S4
M 19 y T 23
Bomb drop 6/2013
H asked for/filed for D 9/2014
22 yo OW discovered 9/19/14 they're engaged and living together
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Quote:
I gotta ask, I think.

Are you trying to convince yourself or others?

Why do you think you need to ask?

Ever heard of the saying.....never ask a question that you do not want the answer to?

What do you think asking says about YOU?

What does the word detachment mean to YOU?

FTR, I am not saying ask or not....


"The difficulties of Life are intended to make us BETTER,not bitter".
"Fear is a prison, where you are the jailer. FREE YOURSELF!"
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Ever heard of the saying.....never ask a question that you do not want the answer to?


I think knowing the answer to the question as to whether the OW is pregnant is pretty darned important:

1) It may influence your willingness to stand. For some people that's a dealbreaker, for others it's not. But if it's a dealbreaker for you, better to know now and incorporate that into your plans re: separation or divorce

2) Tactically it may affect how you see h's behavior or how you approach him on certain things.

3) Just asking may put a seed of doubt into H's mind about the wisdom of his current path (i.e. if he ran away from home to avoid responsibility, he may not have thought about the possibility of OW saddling him with NEW responsibilities just like his old ones).

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Quote:
I think knowing the answer to the question as to whether the OW is pregnant is pretty darned important:

Not disagreeing - just giving another perspective ....

a) You ask, he lies - you find out later.

b) You ask, he tells you none of your business - you find out later.

c) You ask - he says no - how does that make you look/feel

d) You ask, he tells you yes...she ends up losing the baby later.

I guess my point is, I am not saying NOT to ask, I am saying understand why you are asking and accept that at the end of the day, he may lie and you may never know it until later.

Quote:
It may influence your willingness to stand. For some people that's a dealbreaker, for others it's not. But if it's a dealbreaker for you, better to know now and incorporate that into your plans re: separation or divorce

I agree that it MAY impact your willingness to stand. I get that. In term of how to incorporate that into your plans re: separation or divorce - Me I would plan for the worse and hope for the best. In all cases, protect YOURSELF.

Quote:
Tactically it may affect how you see h's behavior or how you approach him on certain things.

If I understand the sitch....he already is living with OW - I believe that how you approach him is the same - living with, dating, sleeping with, etc. That is just my opinion. I am not saying I am right.

Quote:
Just asking may put a seed of doubt into H's mind about the wisdom of his current path (i.e. if he ran away from home to avoid responsibility, he may not have thought about the possibility of OW saddling him with NEW responsibilities just like his old ones).

As much as I can see this point on some level....I am not sure that the LBS has much say in the MLCer coming out of the crisis.

IMO, you should make choices YOU want for YOU NOT as a result of HIS choices or his answers. That just my 2 cents.


"The difficulties of Life are intended to make us BETTER,not bitter".
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So, to follow up... I DID ask and H says No, she is not pregnant. Eric, you are right, I have no idea if he is telling me the truth or not. Not sure what it says about me... maybe that I'm scared that he if he gets OW pregnant that our kids will feel as if he has started a new, better (from their perception based on time spent) life there? My pastor pointed out today that, in all likelihood, with her age, she likely does want to have kids so this could very well be an issue I have to deal with in the next few years anyway.

Had a nice time together at the pumpkin patch. I was hurt when he revealed his T-shirt that showed that he had visited Washington DC (where we had always planned to go) and he told me that they went there together. I had to walk away for a minute and apologized to him for doing that but explained that it hurt that she is replacing me on all our old hopes and dreams. The rest of the day went fine and we even went out to dinner as a family together.

So, here's where I'm likely going to get flames... I know, I know, I'm ready for them.

Sunday afternoon he brought the kids to the house as he had agreed to come with me to get their pictures taken. I made the HUGE mistake of asking him about next weekends plans, which he had lied about on Friday and told him that I knew he was lying and that he needed to stop lying to me if we were ever going to be able to do the D and raising our kids amicably. I know, I shouldn't have done this, the reason I did was my real fear that he would introduce my kids to her behind my back (as they will be with HIS parent next weekend). He said he would never do that but he's lied so much I can't trust him.

I told him that since I cannot trust him on anything I certainly can't trust him on his financial offer. He starts telling me that unless I accept it, with no negotiation and no documentation of his finances, he will withdraw it and just let the courts decide (which he says will likely screw me some, but I don't know for sure without knowing the truth about his bank accounts). He started being so nasty that S8 jumped in and told him to stop making Mommy cry (I know, more flames for this happening in front of the kids. I'm already beating myself up about that.) Feeling like he was holding our only security over my head for an unreasonable request I was bawling. I told him that the only retaliation I had is our kids and that I would NEVER use them against him.

He kept threatening to leave and I reminded him that we were supposed to discuss a visitation schedule and taking the kids to his Mom's an hour away on school nights (which I don't want to make them get up so early, they already get up at 6:15) and he just began being unreasonable and acting like a defiant 5 year old. His eyes were so cold and uncaring.

He ended up leaving in a hurry. He took S8's booster seat in his hurry so I asked him to bring it back. He did and I apologized for my part in the fight and he said he forgave me. He feels like I am still trying to control him, I don't see it that way, I think I'm just trying to be smart, financially, and also do what's best for our kids.


Me- 40 H- 41
S8, D5, S4
M 19 y T 23
Bomb drop 6/2013
H asked for/filed for D 9/2014
22 yo OW discovered 9/19/14 they're engaged and living together
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Please do NOT trust him financially. Protect yourself, if that means get a lawyer do it.



Experience is a brutal teacher, but you learn. My God, do you learn. - C.S. Lewis

Life is usually all about how you handle Plan B. - Jack3Beans

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Yes, get a lawyer. Don't negotiate these things with him directly - he's trying to hide stuff and get an advantage over you by bullying you.

Get a lawyer, get serious about the financial stuff, and stop trying to get him to hang out with you. He's not at a point where he's going to suddenly "get it" and come home. Might happen someday, but not while you're still tugging on the rope. (Actually, sadly, it's more likely to happen once you've moved on and he's having to deal with the reality of you dating another man and his kids being parented by another man, but in the meantime, the more reality you can introduce into this fantasy life of his, the better.)

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Ok, so a couple of things, I realize I cannot trust him financially. I *may* end up getting less by fighting him because I will, for sure, have to use up some of my savings to fight it. I do have a lawyer in PA and have hesitated to hire one in CA because it's a $5000 retainer and if the PA agreement is as good or better than I could get in CA (based on internet research and consultation, assuming his info is true) I don't want to waste $5k.

The issue being here is **IF**, I have no real idea how much he has made over this last year. I know last year because I have the 1099's (he's self employed) but he *says* this year is much less. The issue here is that I have no way of knowing what his 1099's are this year yet, of course AND the type of business he does he can very easily hide $ in either OW's account, cashing checks or by simply not collecting it from his subcontractors yet. I *could* hire a forensic accountant but that would cost $5-$10k to maybe find nothing, he works from yellow manila files and it is very easy to simply hide some of them.

So, my point being, since it is so easy for him to hide $ and I can't really afford to spend $10k of the savings I have when I need to protect my kids financial future, do I risk it?

Not to get too personal, but here's what he's offering, based on $180k gross income (he says, last year was $250k):
Child support $4050/mo until age 18
Spousal Support $3500/mo for 6 years (this I want to negotiate, in CA it would likely be 10 years to life based on need and 19 years married)
He pays all life insurance policies $230/mo
He pays all kids private school, now $850/mo will be $1500 in 2 years
Retirement plan for me $500/mo for length of spousal support
He keeps all personal property in PA
I keep all personal property in CA (better for me I think)
He keeps all his bank accounts (and WILL NOT disclose values of past or present)
I keep all joint accounts (which he knows about fully, worth about $8k total)
I keep my $19k in savings from insurance business he had me close last year
He keeps Lincoln Navigator, valued at $14k
He keeps F150 valued at $8400
He keeps all value of his business (which is VERY unknown, it is based solely on his efforts, construction consulting)
We each keep our credit card debts (minimal)
He pays all his 2013 tax liability plus old taxes he owes from prior business
He pays me $23k to pay my part of 2013 income taxes, we file married filing separately
I keep Buick, owing $25k on it, I pay for this myself

I know this is a lot of very personal information and maybe that is frowned upon but I want you all to know why I am so torn. Parts of this are VERY generous and parts, not so much. The 2 lawyers I have talked to and his are all saying this is a way better deal than I would get on my own ASSUMING what he is saying is true. The biggest issue I has is that IF and the length of spousal support, my youngest would be 9 when it ran out.

And, KML, you are so right, I need to stop getting him to hang out with me and COMPLETELY detach. STAT!


Me- 40 H- 41
S8, D5, S4
M 19 y T 23
Bomb drop 6/2013
H asked for/filed for D 9/2014
22 yo OW discovered 9/19/14 they're engaged and living together
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Oh, and as far as I can tell his business expenses probably run $25-30k a year, making his net $150k less taxes...


Me- 40 H- 41
S8, D5, S4
M 19 y T 23
Bomb drop 6/2013
H asked for/filed for D 9/2014
22 yo OW discovered 9/19/14 they're engaged and living together
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From where I stand, fthnluv, your are fortunate indeed. Run with it...And if some small parts of it are questionable to you, it seems the other more generous parts will make up for those...


Me 53, XH 57
M 20 (+1.5) years, no kids
BD June '13
H moved out July '13
Confirmed long-suspected PA Feb '14
H filed for D Nov. '14
D March '15
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Had a good conversation with H this afternoon. He is willing to negotiate the terms of the "settlement" offer he gave me and is considering disclosure. I think he has some money saved that he fears I will want part of but I am reasonable and I know he has not yet paid his income taxes and he will need about $50k for that, I won't ask for 1/2 of that, I know he will need it. He says his 1099's for 2014 will be about $300k but after his business expenses (he has subcontractors he has paid from it) it will be about $180k.

He is open to negotiation about length of spousal support and the other few things that concern me. He says he is reluctant to show me bank statements because he knows that some of what I see will hurt me (likely $ spent on OW and trips and such) but he also fears that I could use it against him in court to try to hurt him (or OW). I told him that I will not do that, from what I can tell his offer is very reasonable and just needs a few tweaks but that he will have to show me his bank statements if I request them through my attorney anyway so it's not going to hurt him any more to give them to me for review. He is considering all of that. Not sure what I'm going to do if he will not. I guess I'll have to weigh all that out.

All in all, I had a much better day and I am hopeful that we can work this financial stuff out without nastiness or excessive lawyer fees. I guess time will tell...


Me- 40 H- 41
S8, D5, S4
M 19 y T 23
Bomb drop 6/2013
H asked for/filed for D 9/2014
22 yo OW discovered 9/19/14 they're engaged and living together
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Hi fth,
Do yourself a favor and take what you can while he is feeling "generous". In many, many cases (including my own) the WAS is much more generous at the start of the process and as time goes on, becomes much less so and starts to feel "entitled" and that they owe you nothing since you are cause for all that is bad in their life. I've seen it happen to me and to many others here on the forum.

Don't worry about him seeing how he is sticking you with so much responsibility and work for the kids. It won't make one bit of difference to him at all. You need to understand that to him YOU are the "bad guy", the one who "messed up". He is just doing what he MUST do because of all the bad YOU have caused him in his life. He needs to blame you for his actions because if you aren't the reason, that only leaves him throwing away his family for a woman much younger than him and what does that make him? I have a feeling that he has been doing a lot of traveling with OW and spending of money on her and he wants to hide that, that is why he doesn't want you seeing "his" accounts (PA and CA are community property states and they are as much YOUR accounts as they are his and the business is as much yours as his. My W lost sight of this as well). There is no way he won't have to disclose the amount of funds in ALL the accounts as it's half yours until you say it's not and a judge signs off on that.

It is a very good offer but also keep in mind that he is an adulterer and you have been married 19 years. The courts in PA WILL take this into account. Not to mention the fact that if it goes to court the world will know that they (good Christians that they say they are) were committing a heinous sin against you and God...and MLCers HATE looking bad. Heck, he can't even face the family for a kids party when they don't even know about his young chickie yet!

As for the "talk" with the kids...my W STILL hasn't had an honest talk with our girls! She actually believed that they thought the reason she was sleeping on the couch was because I snored too loudly! Remember, their empathy chip isn't working at all and that includes the kids as well. My W went from being a stay at home mom for 15 years to not caring or denying that D hurts the kids. According to her D doesn't have any adverse effects on anyone as long as we both "act right" during and after. Never mind the pain she went through when her parents D's or every expert saying how bad it is...only OTHER peoples kids are hurt by D. In fact she actually thought (and may still) that they would be 'happy" that their mother will finally get what she wants and be "happy". In fact she said she will be a better mother because she will be so happy just because we are no longer M. MLCers don't think like normal people, remember don't believe anything they say and half of what you see!

It's good that you are doing this now and getting everything prepared. I will say that you definitely need a lawyer. Your H isn't going to stop until he gets what he thinks he wants so badly and he isn't going to allow himself to stop. This is why he doesn't want to see you or do things as a family..not because it hurts too much but because he doesn't want to allow himself to waver. My W did the same type of things...she got angry when we did things as a family and had fun. The only times we really fought when she was still at home after B-day was after we had done something really fun as a family and she had a good time. It scared her that she might start to think she didn't want a D and she had made up her mind. Hang in there fth and try to keep a cool head. Remember, the man your H was is no longer there. You aren't dealing with the old H and you need to keep this in mind at all times.

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Originally Posted By: Matt165

Do yourself a favor and take what you can while he is feeling "generous".

Seriously considering it. As I do more research in CA it is generous (with the exception of the length of spousal support which is negotiable)

Originally Posted By: Matt165
I have a feeling that he has been doing a lot of traveling with OW and spending of money on her and he wants to hide that, that is why he doesn't want you seeing "his" accounts (PA and CA are community property states and they are as much YOUR accounts as they are his and the business is as much yours as his. My W lost sight of this as well). There is no way he won't have to disclose the amount of funds in ALL the accounts as it's half yours until you say it's not and a judge signs off on that.

Yes, I think the same thing. There is likely a bunch of stuff that he did with her or spent on her that he does not want me to see. Frankly, it seems like that is water under the bridge, I can't get it back, right? I'm considering telling him to just give me statements with the balances for the last 2 years so that I don't have to see the transactions but I at least know how much money he has/had... H might go for that.

Originally Posted By: Matt165
MLCers don't think like normal people, remember don't believe anything they say and half of what you see!

Such a truth to remember...

Originally Posted By: Matt165
I will say that you definitely need a lawyer.

I have retained a lawyer in PA, trying to avoid the costs of retaining a CA one too...

Hope you are doing better Matt. I have a bunch of kid stuff to do tonight but I'll try to catch up on your thread later.


Me- 40 H- 41
S8, D5, S4
M 19 y T 23
Bomb drop 6/2013
H asked for/filed for D 9/2014
22 yo OW discovered 9/19/14 they're engaged and living together
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fthnluv - Just FYI...my H has done the same, I'm sure, this past year. Spent a great deal of OUR money on OW and her kids. My attorney told me they can get hold of all the credit card statements that would show what he spent (and he charges just about EVERYTHING), and I would be entitled to half of all that - because it's 'our' money. I don't plan to go that far, but I think it can be done. Check it out...


Me 53, XH 57
M 20 (+1.5) years, no kids
BD June '13
H moved out July '13
Confirmed long-suspected PA Feb '14
H filed for D Nov. '14
D March '15
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Thanks Livenow. Very interesting. I would imagine he has been spending $ since before our separation on OW, the question becomes how much and how much would it cost me to go down that road with the lawyer and how would affect his offer on the table currently. I will have to weigh all that out with the rest of this so I can come to a decision.


Me- 40 H- 41
S8, D5, S4
M 19 y T 23
Bomb drop 6/2013
H asked for/filed for D 9/2014
22 yo OW discovered 9/19/14 they're engaged and living together
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Hi everyone! Sorry to be MIA, it was a long weekend.

I am still working on keeping my mind off H and the OW, it was particularly hard this weekend when my kids were with my in-laws and H and OW were on a trip nearby. Thankfully, that is now in the past and I have vowed not to look at that app where I found there travel plans in the future. Even though I did it innocently at the time, to see his flight status for the trip I did know about, the information only hurt me and my heart. I have also vowed not to look at OW's FB profile because it is possible I will see a new pic of them or that she has changed her status from "in a relationship" to "engaged". I have no idea if that's the case and I don't want to know until/if I have to.

Brought my Grandmother to stay with me for the next week or so and that has been a nice distraction. She is a smart, and funny, cookie!

At some point this week I need to sit down and run the actual numbers for his "offer" against what I think I could get, at a minimum, from my state. I guess I have been putting that off because I don't want to take any steps forward towards the D but I need to be prepared if/when he brings it up again too.

I have a meeting tonight but I'm going to try to come in and catch up on everyone's posts in the next day or 2. Hope you all have amazing things to report!


Me- 40 H- 41
S8, D5, S4
M 19 y T 23
Bomb drop 6/2013
H asked for/filed for D 9/2014
22 yo OW discovered 9/19/14 they're engaged and living together
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Having a rough day today. Yesterday I felt a *little* at peace but today the sadness and thinking of H and how much I miss him and our old life together is back. Ugh. I just wish I could turn my old memories and plans for our future that may now never be off.

Going to see a Christian counselor for the first time this afternoon. I think I need that. I also need to talk to her about having S8 see a counselor, he is taking much too much of this on. The other night he told me "Mom, I love you and I'd give up my life if Dad would spend his with yours.", true story. I'm so sad he is hurting. I reassured him that this is not his to take on and that it he (and his siblings) did nothing to cause this but I know he's still wanting to fix it. He's a mini-fixer, just like his Mom apparently. Poor kid.


Me- 40 H- 41
S8, D5, S4
M 19 y T 23
Bomb drop 6/2013
H asked for/filed for D 9/2014
22 yo OW discovered 9/19/14 they're engaged and living together
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Having a rough day today. Today is H's birthday and it feels so strange (bad) to not feel welcome to celebrate it with him. I had the kids send him handmade birthday cards this week, he hasn't acknowledged them. I think I'll let them call him to wish him a happy birthday tonight. They will likely get his voicemail but there's nothing I can do about that.

Went to church this morning and had a beautiful moment while singing a song that I love so, my S3 crawled into my arms and buried his sweet head into my neck and then my D5 scooted over to love on me too, I began to cry from the emotion of it all. Moments like that make me so grateful for what I have but also so sad for what H is missing.

Going to try to focus on me this week. Some days are so, so hard. I try to tell myself that I am still very early into this but I still feel like a failure when I wallow in the sadness of it all some days.


Me- 40 H- 41
S8, D5, S4
M 19 y T 23
Bomb drop 6/2013
H asked for/filed for D 9/2014
22 yo OW discovered 9/19/14 they're engaged and living together
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My W's birthday was just last week. I know how you feel. I too have found myself tearing up in church often. It's a place I bare my soul to God and I don't try and hold back there. Just let it wash over you and try and let it go.

Hang in there fth, you are doing well for being so soon into the process. Keep doing for yourself and the kids. H probably won't acknowledge the cards, try to drop all expectations, all it leads to is disappointment. He just isn't able to think of you and his family in a normal way. If you do those type of things, do it because YOU want to and don't expect a response. If you do get one, be thankful but don't expect it to happen again. Hard to do I know but you will learn over time that it's the expectations that hurt us the most.

Do something for you this week. Something you may have wanted to do but never had the chance. It will help.

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Fry - you are doing great. I am just a month behind and I tear up at church and school events. It is a bittersweet mix of gratitude, lova and grief. It's ok to feel it because that's how you get through it. This is not something to "get over" you must slog your way through it.

H's bday is next month. It's a big one and I am not sure how to handle it. The whole no expectations thing is hard to master. You are doing so well and just loving your kids and loving yourself is so important so you can carry on.

Thinking of you and sending prayers that today will be peaceful and strong for you.


M:25 years at BD w/ 2 daughters
BD: 5/14
Separated 6/14 - H moved cross country w/OW
D Final 9/17

“I can be changed by what happens to me. But I refuse to be reduced by it.”
― Maya Angelou



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Hi there fth,

I was reading over your first thread last night, and was really amazed how much our husbands acted when this all began. I had been married for 18 years together a total of 21.

I agree with Matt, take advantage of the generous stage, because greedy monster is sure to follow. Mine did that right at Christmas time and refused to pay the support we agreed upon before it became completely legal. I called my attorney on that one, and ex husband straightened up right away. Of course he was more upset that I made him look bad in front of his attorney. Really??

Be sure you're being fair to yourself and think about how life will financially be down the road, and address that through this negotiation accordingly. I haven't read over all your situation, and I know your state may be different, but if you can make sure you get the entire tax return each year, especially if he's opting to be the part time father. My ex tried to get me to share it with him, but I refused to do that, because the expense to raise my girls is getting higher and higher each year.

Take care

Kimmerz.


M=42 XH=44
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Thanks Matt, Gwen and Kimmerz. I'm doing a little better today. I found an image of H and OW online (new FB page for him) with her in his arms and seeing that sort of sent me into a further tailspin last night. Then I beat myself up for it, of course, because it was self sabotage, I sought it out myself. Nothing good can come from seeing those sorts of things but curiosity (or Satan) got the best of me. Trying to erase that image from my head now. It's one thing to "know" it in my head and entirely another to see. How he could move on so quickly after 23 years with me just boggles my mind. I am promising myself not to look into those sort of things again. I pray I have the strength to keep my own promise to myself.

Originally Posted By: Matt165
H probably won't acknowledge the cards, try to drop all expectations, all it leads to is disappointment. He just isn't able to think of you and his family in a normal way. If you do those type of things, do it because YOU want to and don't expect a response. If you do get one, be thankful but don't expect it to happen again.

Yes, I need to work on this for sure. He certainly does not want to be accountable for anything, including calling his kids or telling them thank you for the cards and that frustrates me. I do need to drop my expectations to zero, I only end up annoyed, frustrated and disappointed.

Thanks for the advice Kimmerz. I have prepared my response to his offer and took the time to do all the math and I think I am better off to take his deal than my chances with our state. He is paying for many things he does not have to pay for. I have to let go of what he may have spent on OW and move forward with what is a decent deal. I am going to have him pay support for both me and the kids based on a percentage of his income, rather than a specific amount (adjusted each year based on 1099's) which can hurt me in down years (but he wouldn't have the $ to pay the larger amount any way) but also gives me and the kids the upside if he starts doing even better, thanks to me taking care of the kids on my own so that he CAN do that. I'm not addressing the subject to him at this time unless he wants to discuss it, it would just be a step closer to a D that I don't want. If/when he wants to talk about it I am ready.


Me- 40 H- 41
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M 19 y T 23
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Tonight the lyrics of Alanis Morisette's famed song You Outta Know have been going through my head... especially the "it was a slap in my face, how quickly I was replaced..." and ..".I'm sure she'd make a really excellent mother..." I want to send that to him and make his phone just play it on repeat over and over and over...

Ruh roh... I think I'm reaching the anger stage. I don't want to be a bitterman!


Me- 40 H- 41
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22 yo OW discovered 9/19/14 they're engaged and living together
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Smart girl fth.... so glad you did the math and thought down the road. So glad he's giving you a better offer than the other option. Take it!!

Oh yes, this is a slap in the face alright! I've been through it, I know! I understand the curiosity of checking face book out. I did that, and never saw anything of those two together, but got reports from my girls all the time. Just because they were disgusted by what they saw. And I saw them together for the first time 4 years post BD almost two weeks ago. It still felt odd, but I had 4 years to get used to it.

My advice is.... you need to let these emotions wash over you! They're going to come in waves, and by the end of this you will be an excellent surfer! All you can do is ride the wave, and ALLOW yourself to feel what you feel. Don't tell yourself it's bad or you're wrong for the feelings you're experiencing. You and everyone else here has experienced betrayal on many different levels. It's ok to be bitter! Heck I've been bitter for a while now!

As time goes on, life and God has a way of evening things out. Things will not always be rosey with those two, I can guarantee it. It's just a matter of time before infatuation and real life settles in with those two. Trust me. The consequences of their actions will surface. I guess what's so hard about it is that it's not on our time line, but God's.


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fthnluv - I'm on the same timetable as you -- BD 2013, and things are moving in the direction towards D now. I know how it is to see those photos. Last Feb. I went looking for photos online, and I found exactly what I was looking for - similar to what you found. They literally took my breath away, as I had only suspected, and had had no proof up until then. Suddenly I was looking at my husband's face -- looking very happy -- with someone else 13 years younger than me (and 17 years younger than him!). I'll never forget it, 8:00 in the morning on a Saturday. Woke up my sister on the phone. But, I think I was meant to find them, and wasn't ready to see them until right then. It's not a good thing to keep looking, but I figure, at the moment, I'm still married, and I have a right to know. Sounds like you are on the right track though now, as you work through all the financials. I wish you the best of luck as you're moving forward. You sound like you're doing great!


Me 53, XH 57
M 20 (+1.5) years, no kids
BD June '13
H moved out July '13
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H filed for D Nov. '14
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Originally Posted By: Kimmerz

As time goes on, life and God has a way of evening things out. Things will not always be rosey with those two, I can guarantee it. It's just a matter of time before infatuation and real life settles in with those two. Trust me. The consequences of their actions will surface. I guess what's so hard about it is that it's not on our time line, but God's.

I'm torn on being excited about them paying the consequences in God's time and not wanting anything consequence-wise to happen to him, other than the Holy Spirit coming over him and removing the fog from his head and making him want to truly repent and save our family. I realize that *could* happen, even as early as tomorrow, but it's not likely to happen anytime soon and maybe never.

Lately I feel like he did all this chit and I am the one here, picking up all the pieces of our broken lives... kids that are having outbursts for no reason, suddenly peeing the bed again, trying to take this on and solve it themselves.

It's just not fair. I accept it as the path that has been put before me and that I must try to walk it with as much grace and dignity as possible but I sometimes wallow in the pity too.

While reading my bible today I came to the realization that I am still treating H as my god or idol to worship and that until I get this under control and truly worship God above H I will never have peace.

It also made sense of the issue that I was worried about today when I realized that H's new FB profile was public (if you look for his name you can easily find him) and that means that people might see that he is putting it "out there" that he is with someone else now.

That hurts so much and I was afraid that it would make a reconciliation harder, if people knew the H he is being now, so I wanted so badly for him to take it down (not that he would care about my opinion there). That way I would not have to defend him and explain that he is in MLC so that they wouldn't think less of him.

Then I realized that I was, once again, trying to make him my god and make him perfect, even to everyone else in the outside world.

Then I realized that it is not in my control and that even if the whole world knows that he is currently a lying cheater that would make it all the more the glory for God if/when our marriage is reconciled and better than ever. God will get all the glory, not me and not H, as he will clearly be shown to be a man who has (at that point) been changed by God from a scumbag cheater to a devoted husband, dad, and man of God.

I think this will let me let him go a little more, to stop protecting his image to the world. And, if I'm honest, I guess I have to be ok with not being perfect myself, even to the outside world.

I like days when I feel like I make some progress in my growth. Today is one of those days.


Me- 40 H- 41
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M 19 y T 23
Bomb drop 6/2013
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Originally Posted By: LiveNow
I went looking for photos online, and I found exactly what I was looking for - similar to what you found. They literally took my breath away, as I had only suspected, and had had no proof up until then. Suddenly I was looking at my husband's face -- looking very happy -- with someone else 13 years younger than me (and 17 years younger than him!).

Thanks LiveNow. Yes, I searched them out and I found them. I feel like an idiot, I knew that IF I found them they would only hurt me but I did it anyway.

How can he (they) possibly think that a R or M with someone so much younger will work, long term? Especially when built on lies (if not lying to OW, which I doubt, he was most certainly lying to me). Seriously H? You are 41 and she is 23! A recipe for disaster and classic MLC behavior (but he's not in MLC, right?)! I just hope that the damage that will be done in the meantime will not be irreparable, to either H or OW or us!


Me- 40 H- 41
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You know, I do believe that we were meant to find them. They were there to show us reality, so we're not in denial about it. It was about the worst moment of my entire life, but I needed to see those pictures. I was no longer in the dark, and I was grateful for that. (And, I have said this a number of times - the moment I confronted him with the photos was my 1 moment of pure joy in the past year and a half. Really. The look on his face was priceless. He had absolutely no idea they were out there, that was obvious.)

Your H and OW have almost exactly the same number of years between them as my H and OW. I don't get it either. And H and I had had a number of conversations in the past about how we could never (!) be with someone who wasn't close to our own ages because we wouldn't have as much in common. Hm. So much for that! Head up fthnluv. You're doing great. You and I will rise above this -- with plenty of grace and dignity intact.

And about your H's FB page? Leave it be. Let the world see. This is his life, his reputation, etc. Let it be what it is. Let him deal with whatever the consequences are. What he puts on there is not a reflection on you -- remember that. And if there is one thing I've learned this year it's that no one is perfect. Don't even try because it's fruitless. This was a tough lesson for me to learn, but showing more of my 'less-than-perfect' self to others has, without a doubt, brought me closer to those around me. And there is FREEDOM in knowing we can't be perfect! Hooray for us in all our imperfection!


Me 53, XH 57
M 20 (+1.5) years, no kids
BD June '13
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Oh my..... I remember the day I got confirmation of who my XH was with. However the woman he finally made it official with, I had suspected something was going on between the two for some time! I even caught him at her house one day! Of course he denied it till the cows came home. As it turns out this OW and My now EX had been working on an emotional affair for many years.

I found out through my neighbor, who happened to find out through the postal carrier! She noticed some woman was getting her mail at my XH new apartment and mentioned it to my neighbor. Mind you I live in a small town, so news travels fast.

I confronted XH about it, and he admitted it. Of course this was after he filed for divorce.

I want you to know.... the people that new XH and I best, the people that worked with XH for years were just disgusted. His family was floored, with the exception of his two cousins who seemed to swing between supporting him and accepting it, to being realistic about what had been done to me and the girls.

And at one time, my ex husband was a happily married man in love with his wife and his children! As I look back at how things went from great to horrible, it all fell within the MLC pre requesites! Huge life changes, death in the family, near death experience with him, dissatisfaction with his job, job stress, then home life stress due to me working and no time for us.

However what has really helped me accept this all, is that all along it was clear that the coping skills for XH for all this change were not in tact! I've spent alot of time very angry at him for not being who I needed him to be or wanted him to be.

When I finally realized that he literally doesn't have the capability by either choice, or not being shown how to during formative years (step dad a cheater and abuser, main role model) I honestly can't be too angry.

Horribly hurt and disappointed because I swore he'd never do that, but he did. And it all started with the ILYBNILWY statements like everyone else!


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Originally Posted By: Kimmerz

And at one time, my ex husband was a happily married man in love with his wife and his children! As I look back at how things went from great to horrible, it all fell within the MLC pre requesites! Huge life changes, death in the family, near death experience with him, dissatisfaction with his job, job stress, then home life stress due to me working and no time for us.

This was truly our story as well - Exactly to a T except I was not working outside the home but we live in a large city so literally going opposite directions and great distances for commute and school!

However what has really helped me accept this all, is that all along it was clear that the coping skills for XH for all this change were not in tact! I've spent alot of time very angry at him for not being who I needed him to be or wanted him to be.

I am so new to this sitch & DB but I am trying to let go of expectations. It feels like I am giving up hope but I am SLOWLY starting to understand the difference.


When I finally realized that he literally doesn't have the capability by either choice, or not being shown how to during formative years (step dad a cheater and abuser, main role model) I honestly can't be too angry.

My H does not seem to possess that ability either. I was naive or foolish to think that since he lived with me longer than FOO he would have "learned" those skills. Pretty arrogant on my part. I also thought he valued honesty so much I could always count on that. Again not realistic.

Horribly hurt and disappointed because I swore he'd never do that, but he did. And it all started with the ILYBNILWY statements like everyone else!

I am learning so much from you all. I also must admit I am sad about humanity after hearing all these stories. In a way to stay neutral I told D - "People are complicated even when they love you."

Thank you for sharing. I am trying to GAL but I am not really there yet to make any big steps except losing weight and IC and no contact. Still shell shocked but all your stories are helpful as I try to read the books and sort through my emotions.







M:25 years at BD w/ 2 daughters
BD: 5/14
Separated 6/14 - H moved cross country w/OW
D Final 9/17

“I can be changed by what happens to me. But I refuse to be reduced by it.”
― Maya Angelou



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Originally Posted By: LiveNow
What he puts on there is not a reflection on you -- remember that. And if there is one thing I've learned this year it's that no one is perfect.

I am learning that one for sure, I think I was afraid (maybe still am) that if people knew the H he his now, it would make it harder for him to come back, knowing that people know what he's done to me and the kids. I can't worry about that. He's in God's hands and I certainly cannot control him.

Originally Posted By: Kimmerz

And at one time, my ex husband was a happily married man in love with his wife and his children! As I look back at how things went from great to horrible, it all fell within the MLC pre requesites! Huge life changes, death in the family, near death experience with him, dissatisfaction with his job, job stress, then home life stress due to me working and no time for us.

My husband too. Everyone who learns about us splitting is just completely shocked. WE were the ones that everyone wanted to be like! I tell them, I am as shocked by this turn of events as anyone. I had no clue he was unhappy until it was too late. By the time I had any idea of problems he had already left in his own mind and just sort of went through the motions of counseling and "working on it" while all the while dating others behind my back. Ugh. I can't believe who he is right now.

123Gwen, our situations are so similar. You are doing so well, from what this newbie at all of this can tell. I agree, reading others stories and what is happening to them is so helpful for me too.

Today I took my Grandmother home. I just love spending time with her, she is such a wonderful woman and I am so blessed to still have her in my life. We had such a nice visit, talking, analyzing and watching trashy TV. She even read the Men in Midlife book while she was here and said "It's like H wrote this!", he is so classic MLC. She says she thinks he will come out of this and come back to us but that it will be a while longer and the guilt and shame will likely be the biggest issue with his return. She laughs at him and the OW, it's such an obvious mismatch it's *almost* funny.

Working on getting back into school today. Yay for doing something all about ME!


Me- 40 H- 41
S8, D5, S4
M 19 y T 23
Bomb drop 6/2013
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Had a decent day yesterday. Met with my pastor who told me that he thinks that H and I WILL reconcile at some point, likely 2-3 years or more down the road (as the MLC and life takes its course he says). He thinks that H will likely have to D, remarry OW and then D again before he comes to his senses. This is a huge turnaround because he has always said that he thought we would likely never reconcile due to my H's very adamant decision to D. He told me that he had told me that in the past because he needed me to begin to accept that there will be a D and begin to move forward with my own life. He feels like I am making good progress there so he felt comfortable in giving me shared hope. He does intend to keep me moving forward, though, and said he will press me on letting go and taking care of myself as we go along. I'm just happy to have another person join me in hope.

I also spoke to H for about an hour yesterday. It was a good conversation about his upcoming trip home for Thanksgiving weekend (I will let him have the kids to himself starting Friday) and he also plans to go to all family functions as normal for Christmas this year and says he is fine with me being there with the kids as normal. I am so happy to hear this, I was dreading either him not coming home for Christmas or me being "uninvited" (by myself, so that the kids don't have to miss their Dad I would not go instead if it came down to that). I realize that this, like my D's birthday party, may change as we get closer to the holiday so I am just keeping up my prayers in this area.

Our conversation was long mostly because he wanted to talk about our financial deal and I had to explain my reasons for many of the things I added so that he knew where I was coming from (ie: length of spousal support needs to be longer than normal due to him living across the country which does not allow me to work). Sometimes things that are written do not come across the way you want them to or the reasoning is unclear so we discussed much of that and he *seemed* to be agreeable to most of it. We shall see, it's a negotiation, I guess.

Did some more work on getting back into school today. I think I will only be able to do 1 class next semester but then go back full time in the fall when all of my kids are in school or pre-school. Exciting developments!


Me- 40 H- 41
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Wow your pastor seems to really have a grasp on the situation.

I can understand where he was coming from in regards to encouraging you there was going to be a divorce and it was time to accept it.

As I continue my path, I really can see how reconciliation would have to follow the sequence in which your pastor has stated. Divorce, re marry, divorce again, with the hopes of total clarification of the choices he's made. However, if it ever does get to that point, you must consider where you will be at that point in time.

I can possibly see this happening with my XH. However, I don't have any desire to reconcile with him as a couple. I would really like to clear the air and talk about things, but so much water has gone under the bridge, I really can't see us more than good friends.


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fthnluv - I'm very likely going to be starting 'negotiations' with H soon. How do you keep your cool when talking about these things with him? How do you not get angry? How does that stay below the surface? How do you have a conversation that stays pleasant? I having a VERY difficult time imagining how this is ever going to happen without a neutral third party there - to talk FOR me! I just feel like the moment I mention that I'm entitled to half of H's pension, all he!! will break loose. Maybe I'm wrong - I hope I am...Any wise words?


Me 53, XH 57
M 20 (+1.5) years, no kids
BD June '13
H moved out July '13
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Live,

I think that all you have to explain to him is that unless you both agree to something that the court will probably split everything down the middle. You will give him half your retirement and he will give you half of his. Tell him you won't be bullied and won't allow his anger to influence things. He can either be willing to calmly discuss things and work out an agreement or the lawyers and court will do it for you at great expense. Pay now or pay later.


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Originally Posted By: Kimmerz
I really can see how reconciliation would have to follow the sequence in which your pastor has stated. Divorce, re marry, divorce again, with the hopes of total clarification of the choices he's made. However, if it ever does get to that point, you must consider where you will be at that point in time.

Yes, that is the great unknown. At this point I am so new to this I can't possibly imagine being at a place where I do not want to reconcile with H and restore our family but who knows what lies ahead, right?

Originally Posted By: LiveNow
fthnluv - I'm very likely going to be starting 'negotiations' with H soon. How do you keep your cool when talking about these things with him? How do you not get angry? How does that stay below the surface? How do you have a conversation that stays pleasant?

LOL! I laugh at the idea that I might have any wise words as I am so new to this yet. I think I keep my cool because I know I have to, first of all. In fact, there was a time when I was so calm and cool it freaked H out. Secondly, we've always had a very easygoing relationship. We were the couple that never fought (I realize now that that can be a warning sign) but it still applies. H truly wants to do right by us, at least from the financial point of view, so there's not really much to argue with. He sent me, in writing, his offer of a settlement and it was(is) very reasonable so it was just a matter of some clarifications and a few changes to amounts of time which he *seemed* open to.

But, keep in mind, my H was apparently very unhappy with many things I've done or said in the past 23 years and never said so, he hates conflict so he might just be keeping his mouth shut to avoid conflict again now. Then again, I'm sure he's still in the guilt stage so it could be that too. Not sure that helps you but it's the situation I'm in.

I actually count my blessings regularly with all of this, so far the kids are ok (Daddy's been gone 2 years for work so they didn't have to get used to that) he's been continuing to pay the bills and he's been pretty nice to me most of the time. Crossing my fingers this continues. I know I am one of the lucky ones in this regards.


Me- 40 H- 41
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Your H sounds just like mine...the part about apparently being very unhappy with many things over 23 years...and avoiding conflict, and keeping his mouth shut -- and the guilt! He already listed the 'assets' but of course conveniently left out his pension and any spousal support. It's not going to be pretty. Bracing myself. But you are right - pay now or pay later...


Me 53, XH 57
M 20 (+1.5) years, no kids
BD June '13
H moved out July '13
Confirmed long-suspected PA Feb '14
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D March '15
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Oops, those were LT's wise words - pay now or pay later. Thanks LT.

Oh and I just can't believe he would be that naive to think he can get away without paying pension or support, or that he may think I am the naive one for not knowing what I'm entitled to! Silly.


Me 53, XH 57
M 20 (+1.5) years, no kids
BD June '13
H moved out July '13
Confirmed long-suspected PA Feb '14
H filed for D Nov. '14
D March '15
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fthnluv Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: LiveNow
but of course conveniently left out his pension and any spousal support. It's not going to be pretty.

Do you think he did that purposely or is it just part of the whole not-being-in-his-right-mind thing? I don't know, I sometimes cut my H a lot more slack than most because I truly feel like this is not my true H, it's some crazy alien that has taken over his body and I pray that my H (or a better version) will one day emerge.

Either way, they (our MLC'ers) are so, so sad. As hard as this is I don't think I'd want what is truly going on in them, whether the recognize it or not, in trade.


Me- 40 H- 41
S8, D5, S4
M 19 y T 23
Bomb drop 6/2013
H asked for/filed for D 9/2014
22 yo OW discovered 9/19/14 they're engaged and living together
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I would not read a lot into what he puts in or leaves out. What you have to concentrate on is what is best for you and what you will accept. It is like a business agreement at this point, nothing else. When you look at it just keep in mind what will keep you up at night and what you can sleep with. if something does not feel good for you, then fix that. Your spouse will do crazy things. Mine walked away from everything including the house in her draft agreement. I am having things changed to make it fair and right. That I can live with. If you do the same for yourself then you will be ok.


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It is hard to separate the business of life when you are dealing with the one person you trusted with your heart. I am in this situation right now and finding it incredibly difficult. What's helped me is that I have two men in my family who I can confide in. They are not vengeful and we do not talk about facts and figures. They are helpful because they help me understand the way many men negotiate.

You can't be the wife in this situation. Maybe later but not right now.


M:25 years at BD w/ 2 daughters
BD: 5/14
Separated 6/14 - H moved cross country w/OW
D Final 9/17

“I can be changed by what happens to me. But I refuse to be reduced by it.”
― Maya Angelou



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Originally Posted By: Lifes Twists
When you look at it just keep in mind what will keep you up at night and what you can sleep with.

That's a good way of looking at it. I just want to protect my kids, and even H, from all of this. I am praying for a reconciliation one day so to some extent I look at it as a huge, expensive and ultimately unnecessary expense that we are incurring. I cannot live with the hope of reconciliation at the forefront, I must live with the real possibility that this is my new life so I try to make decisions based on that angle.

Originally Posted By: 123Gwen
What's helped me is that I have two men in my family who I can confide in. They are not vengeful and we do not talk about facts and figures. They are helpful because they help me understand the way many men negotiate.

You can't be the wife in this situation. Maybe later but not right now.

You are so lucky have that. Those men I have in my life are too close to the situation (dad, brothers) so I don't feel comfortable sharing too much with them because I don't want them to have to deal with feelings that they can't deny later if we reconcile. I do have my Pastor and he has been a huge help in caring for me but watching out for me and my kids as well.

H sent me his travel itinerary for next week. He will be here the day after Thanksgiving until the Monday following, about 2.5 days with the kids. Ugh. I see that he is coming from an airport nearest to where OW is from so I can only assume he will be with her family on Thanksgiving. I wonder how her family will react to this older man in her life? He's 41 and she's 23 so that should make for some interesting side comments. If my husband is the man I've known for most of the last 23 years he will fit right in and be charming and they will love him but who knows what H will show up. I'm going to spend Thanksgiving with H's parents and my kids and try not to think about what H is doing. He's missing a holiday with his kids and he will live to regret that. Oh if I could be a fly on the wall though...


Me- 40 H- 41
S8, D5, S4
M 19 y T 23
Bomb drop 6/2013
H asked for/filed for D 9/2014
22 yo OW discovered 9/19/14 they're engaged and living together
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About this: "Do you think he did that purposely or is it just part of the whole not-being-in-his-right-mind thing? I don't know, I sometimes cut my H a lot more slack than most because I truly feel like this is not my true H, it's some crazy alien that has taken over his body and I pray that my H (or a better version) will one day emerge. Either way, they (our MLC'ers) are so, so sad. As hard as this is I don't think I'd want what is truly going on in them, whether the recognize it or not, in trade."

Fthnluv, I have to believe his attorney has advised him he will have to give up half the pension. Otherwise, that's one ill-informed attorney. I think he just started 'low', and plans to go from there. But, he is not in his right mind, either. You are so right - they are very sad. That's all I see when I do see him (which is not often)...


Me 53, XH 57
M 20 (+1.5) years, no kids
BD June '13
H moved out July '13
Confirmed long-suspected PA Feb '14
H filed for D Nov. '14
D March '15
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I am so new to all this but I remember Cadet posting "believe none of what he says and half of what he does."

Seems like most attorneys who represent MLC spouses are ill-informed. Trying to extract information takes a lot of time and money. More profit representing MLC spouse than the LBS.


M:25 years at BD w/ 2 daughters
BD: 5/14
Separated 6/14 - H moved cross country w/OW
D Final 9/17

“I can be changed by what happens to me. But I refuse to be reduced by it.”
― Maya Angelou



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Did you read the DB or DR books? That's straight from the books' pages. I don't think you understand the context of what that phrase means.


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Emotion, yet peace.
Ignorance, yet knowledge.
Passion, yet serenity.
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Cadet posted "Believe none of what he says and 50% of what he does" on my thread. That was my reference. It was simply a segue to offer comfort.

Bond you are referring to page 140 of The Divorce Remedy. That was a completely different context.


M:25 years at BD w/ 2 daughters
BD: 5/14
Separated 6/14 - H moved cross country w/OW
D Final 9/17

“I can be changed by what happens to me. But I refuse to be reduced by it.”
― Maya Angelou



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No it refers to the emotional state that the WAS is in when they are making or talking about decisions.

If your H is in an MLC, he really does believe what he says. It's his reality now.


M-43 W-40
2D - 9 and 5

Emotion, yet peace.
Ignorance, yet knowledge.
Passion, yet serenity.
Chaos, yet harmony.
Death, yet a new life.

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I was using Cadet's posting on my thread as a segue to offer comfort to LiveNow about H failing to include his pension in settlement talks.

MLC may induce "pension amnesia" but it is the responsibility of the LBS to be faithful to that financial reality.


M:25 years at BD w/ 2 daughters
BD: 5/14
Separated 6/14 - H moved cross country w/OW
D Final 9/17

“I can be changed by what happens to me. But I refuse to be reduced by it.”
― Maya Angelou



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Pension amnesia - I like that Gwen!


Me 53, XH 57
M 20 (+1.5) years, no kids
BD June '13
H moved out July '13
Confirmed long-suspected PA Feb '14
H filed for D Nov. '14
D March '15
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 129
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fthnluv Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: 123Gwen
"Believe none of what he says and 50% of what he does"

This is such a true statement, and one I've thought a lot about and that has even brought me some comfort a few times over the past couple of months.

Originally Posted By: MrBond

If your H is in an MLC, he really does believe what he says. It's his reality now.

I agree with this too. They are in their own, skewed (IMHO) reality and we get to deal with all the fallout from it. I know they have (or will have) stuff they have to deal with on their end too but when you are the LBS and dealing with the kids alone 90% of the time, as I am, it feels like he is making all the decisions that affect all of us and I am left cleaning up the mess from the destruction caused.


Me- 40 H- 41
S8, D5, S4
M 19 y T 23
Bomb drop 6/2013
H asked for/filed for D 9/2014
22 yo OW discovered 9/19/14 they're engaged and living together
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 564
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I agree fthnluv about the fallout with the children. In my sitch, H moved away so the aftermath of H's behavior is 100% on my shoulders. Because my girls are older they can detach a bit easier but the undercurrent of their emotions makes them vulnerable at a time when the decisions of the first man in their life represents so much.

The mess is never ending but I'd still rather be me.


M:25 years at BD w/ 2 daughters
BD: 5/14
Separated 6/14 - H moved cross country w/OW
D Final 9/17

“I can be changed by what happens to me. But I refuse to be reduced by it.”
― Maya Angelou



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