too late?

[jim0987]

So the complaints I've managed to ascertain (In no particular order)

- I put the kids and my work before her
- I wouldn't 'let' her be a SAHM
- I didn't help enough with the nursery drop offs and pick ups
- I was never there for her emotionally in the way she wanted. I needed to be told what to do.
- I left all the laundry to her
- I didn't sweep the kitchen floor or load the dishwasher as often as her
- I make lots of sarcastic comments which she was hurt by
- she felt we always had to do things my way
- she has described me as 'attritional' in arguments


So the 180s I can pick out from this
- do the laundry
- make sure the kitchen/house is kept tidy
- no more sarcastic comments
- don't rise to any arguments
- doing around half nursery trips.

After that it gets more difficult to work out the right things to do.

[25yearsmlc]

Thanks nitty.

I'm going to keep trying to be positive around her its just difficult as it feels like a continuation of how we got here. She was always in a bad mood and so I tried to compensate by being really positive for the kids - I do realise now that she actually saw that as me not caring about the fact she was in a bad mood.

You're changing the marital history. You said you were "NOT there for her when her dad died", (indeed you say you did the opposite, which is pretty lousy to contemplate) so how can you say you being optimistic is somehow "a continuation of how you got here"?? I think it's b/c of the other things you admitted, which include you Not being there for her, the constant questions about where she was, the controlling nature of your behavior which you say was b/c of your low self esteem. But I get the feeling that you believe your low self esteem justified (however feebly) being a bit of a negative, jealous controlling bully to her.

But you are So vague when it comes to describing how 'awful" you were to her or how "terrible" the things you said to her were, we just have to assume you're accurate. Which is fine, but it leaves a lot to the imagination.

ANYHOW

I doubt your wife would say you were "too positive" to be around. With the way you describe your self esteem problems, which sound extreme, I doubt you were "too optimistic" for her. Think about that some more, okay?

How are your R's with the kids these days? And please tell us specifically, what your 180s are (list 3 please) and at least 2 GAL activities that get you OUT of the house AND have you MEETING NEW people, who do Not know your marital situation.

GAL is needed for Detachment. (Detachment is needed for your self protection so you don't keep feeling lousy AND OR obsessing/making things worse).

GAL ALSO helps you GROW as a man, & to feel better about your life.

I hammer it so much, simply b/c it works.

So tell us some 180s and some GAL activities please.

[25yearsmlc]

So the complaints I've managed to ascertain (In no particular order)

- I put the kids and my work before her
- I wouldn't 'let' her be a SAHM
- I didn't help enough with the nursery drop offs and pick ups
- I was never there for her emotionally in the way she wanted. I needed to be told what to do.
- I left all the laundry to her
- I didn't sweep the kitchen floor or load the dishwasher as often as her
- I make lots of sarcastic comments which she was hurt by
- she felt we always had to do things my way
- she has described me as 'attritional' in arguments


So the 180s I can pick out from this
- do the laundry
- make sure the kitchen/house is kept tidy
- no more sarcastic comments
- don't rise to any arguments
- doing around half nursery trips.

These ^^ are helpful but mostly what "not to do". INSTEAD of making sarcastic remarks, give him a compliment! An authentic one please. If the dinner she makes is delicious, say so. That is NOT "pursuit". Pursuit would be saying "it's such a good dinner, I hope you'll always make them for me....here in OUR home..."

See the difference? One is you expressing gratitude, the other is you wanting something more from her. Lose the scorecard about her "wrongs" and unless something is LITERALLY life and death, don't "get your way" on things that don't matter. And most things don't. That's the phrase, "don't sweat the small stuff....and most of life is the small stuff". Make sense?

Do you REALLY care which movie you go see? WHY? Also, how are the finances in the home now?

After that it gets more difficult to work out the right things to do.

How does SHE RECEIVE love? How does she show it? Are you two speaking in the same "love languages"?

What do you think HER love languages are, and which are yours? Be mindful that we each give love in a way that may NOT be the same way we receive it.

I GIVE love by acts of service and words of affirmation, my h gives love with touch.

HE WANTS it with touch and words of affirmation. That means a lot of what I THOUGHT was loving behavior on my end, was not "received" by him as such.

What do you think vis a vis your situation?

[jim0987]

Im vague on some of the details as my memory is very different to how my W seems to recall it. Or in the case of what I said on the day her dad died I genuinely have no idea. I know I was in a bad mood (and i know there is not an adequate excuse) and said something awful but I couldn't tell you what. I do know it wasn't anything negative about her dad though.

I can see where you are going and i wasnt that positive to be round. I do however really feel I had to put a lot if effort into playing with the kids because she flat out ignored them while she browsed eBay or FB (this was a really regular occurrence). Whenever there was a choice between playing with the kids or doing a chore she would always insist on doing the chore. It means now I have a really good R with both my kids.

I see the difference on the Don't vs the more positive do with the 180s.

On the GAL front I'm not doing great as everything I've done has been about reconnecting with the old rather than something new. Im going to have to think of something there.

I've not read the 5LL (that's another book winging its way from Amazon) I do know that I respond to touch and that my W likes to be put on a pedestal.

[25yearsmlc]

Im vague on some of the details as my memory is very different to how my W seems to recall it. Or in the case of what I said on the day her dad died I genuinely have no idea. I know I was in a bad mood (and i know there is not an adequate excuse) and said something awful but I couldn't tell you what. I do know it wasn't anything negative about her dad though.

On one hand, I think agreeing on the present/future is far more important than agreeing about the past, I can't help but note you tend to "forget" most of the truly crappy things you did. AND Or you get very vague. Might be a defensive "block it out" tool, but it does not help your wife OR your situation, for you to do that.

On another note, the "i was in a bad mood" comment rubs me the wrong way. For one thing, it's a lot like "I was horrible to her" and "due to my feelings of inadequacy" b/c whatever follows those vague incriminations sounds so much like a slight variation of the phrase "I was a sh1t and don't want to go into detail AND SURE hope SHE will forget them too..."

But it all goes back to 2 things. Are you really different NOW and if so, HOW?


I can see where you are going and i wasnt that positive to be round.
I do however really feel I had to put a lot if effort into playing with the kids because she flat out ignored them while she browsed eBay or FB (this was a really regular occurrence). Whenever there was a choice between playing with the kids or doing a chore she would always insist on doing the chore. It means now I have a really good R with both my kids.

Glad you see the positive in this^^. Even though I wish she'd been perfect, she wasn't. And So what? No scorecards, remember?

(Besides, truth be told, if there were "real" scorecards, you would not be "winning" the contest.) So.....

Just work on YOU. Make sense?


I see the difference on the Don't vs the more positive do with the 180s.

On the GAL front I'm not doing great as everything I've done has been about reconnecting with the old rather than something new. Im going to have to think of something there.

I've not read the 5LL (that's another book winging its way from Amazon) I do know that I respond to touch and that my W likes to be put on a pedestal.

The pedestal comment might be unfair AND for sure it's vague. Jim, a general comment from me is to ask you to be more specific. When you say things like "Horrible to her..." and then move on to another topic, at least give ONE example of what you mean. I cannot tell if your perspective is warped (like maybe horrible to you is "I interrupted her" OR maybe it's "I slugged her in the face"...) But either way your vagueness concerns me.

I'm a wordsmith by trade so words are my tools. I think most of us would benefit by using more precision in our word choice. But I digress...

The 5LL's book is an easy, interesting read. And well worth reading so I'd put it near the top of the list of "Read ASAP" ---but I am assuming you read the DB book(s) already, correct?

If not, they come first, THEN I suggest to all married couples, the Five Love Languages Book.

I have to read it again once a year as well. Very easy to just "speak MY language" and forget also that my h has more than one. And I don't want to forget to accept h's love in the way HE gives it, not always how I want it "wrapped" but a loving gesture nonetheless.

My h is NOT that much of an "act of service" as I am. He's more the "Affection/touch" type. I like talking things out, H not so much.

Two sentences resolve 90% of conflict in my h's eyes, if accompanied with a back massage...

and yeah, I'm half serious.

Anyhow, after the DB book(s), I suggest 5 LL's for all. But the next book on the list --
DEPENDS on what the couple OR poster's issues are, as to what is next.

Maybe "No More Mr Nice Guy" could be, though I did not read it. So Many men told others it's "good but the title is misleading". Not sure how, but a lot of men say "read it, found it insightful - not what I expected".

Another one that may well ring true for you is "Co-Dependent No More".

I'm going to post a GAL list to you soon, but for now, this is all I have for you.

Have a good evening Jim.

[MrBond]

" I do however really feel I had to put a lot if effort into playing with the kids because she flat out ignored them while she browsed eBay or FB (this was a really regular occurrence)."

That's YOUR perception. She might have thought that since you were there, you it was your chance to play with them. Stop the mindreading.

"Whenever there was a choice between playing with the kids or doing a chore she would always insist on doing the chore."

Women think differently than men. She might have taken it as an opportunity to get something done while the kids are occupied. That's how most women see it.

"my W likes to be put on a pedestal."

Pretty condescending comment. That's YOUR perception and an extremely vague statement. She probably wanted your attention and you IGNORED her. That's not being put on a pedestal. That's called just basic respect and relationship 101.

In fact, just 6 days ago, you wrote... "For the last couple of years I have neglected my wife."

[25yearsmlc]

Detachment is done first & foremost for our self protection. When we are detached, We obsess less, we feel better, & thus, we behave more in alignment with our DB goals. AND GAL is mandatory for Detachment.

For GAL suggestions, let me mention some of what I did when we lived in the interior of Alaska, even in the winter.

Oh, btw, I had 3 kids including a newborn my first winter there, (so you know I don't want to hear about how You are or 'too busy' to GAL.

INERTIA is the greatest enemy to GAL.

Overcome that, & you'll be well on your way to a happier more fulfilling life.

IMO, the more you overcome inertia, the better your R's will be with all people, including your w.

The List:

I volunteered at a battered women's shelter.

I coached a girl's softball team two summers (my older D was on it).

I was on the board of directors for Wrestling ( our son wrestled).

I auditioned for community theater, met some fun creative people. I got cast, too.

SIDE NOTE: *** (Almost nothing can occupy your mind and squeeze out obsessive thought of WAS, more than having to learn lines/movement ON a stage AND OR in front of an audience. I even forgot how much my back hurt b/c of a surgery! Yeah, doing theater really does get your mind off everything/everyone else, even if only for a few hours.

If you HATE being onstage, (& don't wish to overcome that fear...) consider doing Crew work, e.g.. lights, sound, props, etc. Because those folks help out a LOT too, and it can also be very preoccupying. Since many others are counting on you for the show, you just can't wallow well, when that is happening. You will also meet FUN people, NEW people who know nothing of your personal turmoil and that my friend, can be a very good thing! Okay, moving along...)***

I did stand up comedy (and yes, I still do it). I did a whole set once on a MLCs at the Hollywood Improv. It went very well.

I learned to cross country ski, became better at it. I got better at downhill skiing too, and that is exciting enough and requires enough "focus" to help stop obsessing, plus it's good to be OUTDOORS even in Alaska. Helps the PMA!!

I Learned to hunt big game, to deep sea fish, & I got better at shooting.

Took a self defense course (helped me feel safer in the wilds up there).

I learned to use a snowmobile ("snow machine" to Alaskans)
I loved riding it.

Learned to fly a plane, and I got a pilot's license. VERY fun, nice sense of achievement too.

Went skydiving. Loved it so much I did it again. I also plan on doing it again, soon!

Edited a book on a topic for which I had no prior experience. (The book ended up on the Best Seller's List. Who knew?)

I Worked out 3-4 times a week, and really did get in excellent physical shape. Looking good made a world of difference to me. I found a work out partner and began socializing after the work outs. Helps the PMA.

(Plus I'd just had our last child and needed to lose the baby weight. It was not easy to do, let alone in the dark, deathly cold of their long LONG winters).

Saw a therapist and for some months, went on ADs. They both helped PMA.

Took a pottery class (very odd activity for me to do, but I liked it a lot & "met" a new side of myself).

Joined the Officer's Wives club after 15 years of active duty and ignoring them.

**(I only wish I had joined sooner! Met two women who are life long friends to this day.)

Joined a writer's group, met NEW creative people in my area.

Took a class in Conversational French

Took a class in Italian cooking -ate better tasting food & learned about another culture.

Joined a "Poker" club (with limits on the amount you can lose)
Agree that I learned with a different side of my brain, met those who are different than the types of people I normally meet. Really good to expand those comfort zones.


There is more, but I just wanted to suggest to you a few things you can do that do Not cost a lot.

Other than pilot training, most of these ^^ activities were free, or quite cheap.
I'm sure you can think of other things.

Please jot down 10 things you have at one time or another, or 39405 times, wanted to do OR considered doing. Include travel.

You do not have to commit to ANY of them! Just jot them down here...and then we'll go from there.

Good luck!

[25yearsmlc]

" I do however really feel I had to put a lot if effort into playing with the kids because she flat out ignored them while she browsed eBay or FB (this was a really regular occurrence)."

That's YOUR perception. She might have thought that since you were there, you it was your chance to play with them. Stop the mindreading.

"Whenever there was a choice between playing with the kids or doing a chore she would always insist on doing the chore."

Women think differently than men. She might have taken it as an opportunity to get something done while the kids are occupied. That's how most women see it.

Bond hit that nail right on the head.

Most women, (myself included), would have read that^^ as

"H NEVER does chores. He'd rather play video games or throw a ball than clean a toilet (but hey, who wouldn't?) Besides, he has the maid to do the gross chores...

(& that would be ME)..."


"my W likes to be put on a pedestal."

Pretty condescending comment. That's YOUR perception and an extremely vague statement. She probably wanted your attention and you IGNORED her. That's not being put on a pedestal. That's called just basic respect and relationship 101.

In fact, just 6 days ago, you wrote... "For the last couple of years I have neglected my wife."

I also found the pedestal comment confusing/conflicting. You neglected your wife for LONG periods. You were "horrible" to her, or "awful" when it really counted--her dad's death---you "let inadequacies" of yours "cause" you to inflict deep wounds on her.

Hey, this is a real problem with much of what you write.

Big chunks of it contradict other Big chunks.

I realize that times change things, and what was once true - might not be true now, or was not true 3 years ago, etc.

But it sure makes it harder to help you. So If you can, distinguish between

saying what WAS, versus what IS NOW and what you FEAR MIGHT BE coming...

Okay?

[25yearsmlc]

ps

She said you were "attritional" in arguments. So she meane you wore her out with arguing, right?

Coupled with some other comments you made, there is a term that sums up what I think you are trying to say but not coming right out & saying.

The word is "Bully".

Is that the word she'd use, if she were here talking to us & did not think you'd hear?

[jim0987]

Over think she would call me a bully which is difficult for me to face. I do have a passive/aggressive side which I try really hard not to let control me.

In terms of the 'horrible' I will be as specific as I can about what I think are the two major times that I've referred to.

The first was 3 years ago. After she met her ex I could not stop thinking about her other ex's and why she had chosen them (and in particular the guy she had slept with because she didn't want to think about me) at the time we still had her old bed and so everynight as I tried to sleep my brain just raced away with all these thoughts about how these other men were all better than me and that she was willing to try so much harder for them and the history of that bed. She tried to tell me not to stress but I couldn't get my head to stop. I went to see an IC and picked up on some old issues that actually seemed to be the route problem but this just opened up some really repressed issues for me. I spent about 2 months in a state where I felt absolutely worthless. I'm analytical by nature and this is a way I react to avoid dealing with emotion and so during thus 2 months I asked lots of questions about all my wife's ex's. She is not proud of how many there have been and she feels guilt really strongly. She felt I was trying to shame her which I wasn't but I was too caught up in my own £#&%. When I did realise what I was doing I was mortified and stopped as best I could (the IC helped). I talked about going to MC with my W but she didn't want to because she didn't like what she felt IC had done to me and she was afraid that I would use it as license to 'keeping having a go'. She never believed me that in my IC most of the stuff we talked about all predated me meeting my W. To feel loved I need to be touched and reassured but unsurprisingly my W did not feel she could do this as she was hurting and I had not done enough to atone.

Her dad died a couple of months later as things were really only just starting to get back to normal. For a few days I was isolated and ignored except to be told how amazing SILs new boyfriend was which are bad triggers for me and then we went to that park that had negative associations for me. All the stuff that had been bothering me a couple of months previous cane back in a flood. I knew I couldn't tryst myself to say the right thing so I just stayed quiet and played with my D. My W started having a dig about what was wrong and I just said 'nothing'. This persisted for an hour or so until something was said about ice cream and I made some really cutting remark about how my W had ignored me and my D. I can't remember exactly what I said but I know that my W family all were appalled. We basically didn't speak for the rest if the day and I definitely didn't do enough to apologise.

Over the next couple of weeks as my W grieved for her dad. I didn't know what to do to support her - I didn't know what the right things I should do. I couldn't come up with a fix so I just kind of froze. She took this as I didn't care and felt that she couldn't cry in front of me. The fact she had stopped crying in front of me made me think she had stopped crying.

From there on in I think everything has been viewed with a negative. She lost all respect for me and treated me that way because im sarcastic and petulant I responded. Overtime we tried to talk about it and she kept saying it wasn't true or that she was lonely as she had no friends or that the reason she couldn't touch me was to do with her post baby body image or that she was struggling with aspect if motherhood. I took this at face value and so tried to do more and more of the childcare to take sine if this pressure off and I would try and encourage her to make friends or get back to running. Basically I would try to fix, which wasn't what I now realise she needed.

So she got more and more closed off and resentment built on both sides. Her because I had let her down, me because I felt shut out. And thise resentnents tarnished ecerything until my W said she had had enough and we get to where we are now

That's probably enough analysis for the moment - I will answer some of the other Qs in another post.