[gan]

Sorry - I wasn't being clear. What I meant was 180s to address what H identified as issues in our M. Many of the issues I can't address because there is no R. But one - listening - is something I am trying to work on. As I've said on other people's threads (SS?) I've never liked how reactive and defensive I can get in conversations (with all people not just H) - and it is a barrier to listening or rather hearing. I missed important clues that H was unhappy because of this. So this is an area I am working on...

But your point, Maybell, about just sitting with things is well taken…and quite a change for someone who is used being proactive and trying to drive things.

[gan]

Who am I kidding "proactive and trying to drive things" = euphemism for control. I was trying to control things.

[gan]

Well, H came over to pick his stuff up this afternoon. Here's the lowdown (some feedback and wisdom, especially on the bold bits would be really appreciated):

The good:
- I was looking and feeling good when he arrived - decked out in my nice new Calvin Klein jeans, a t-shirt, painted red toes and perfume
- I did my usual awkward kiss on the check greeting and H put his arm around me and definitely gave a bit of a rub on my back
- H said "it was nice to see me" and thanked me for sorting through the stuff
- I did not follow him around the house…instead I went about my own business packing more of my stuff
- H threw very little stuff out and the stuff he did throw out (from his childhood) I didn't make any judgements about (180)
- After he was done loading the stuff in the car he asked if I wanted to grab dinner at the pub across the road (I had thought about extending the offer but decided I would not…and wait to see if he did)
- H agreed to keep our joint private health insurance (after I explained it would be more expensive if we both had a singles policy but that we obviously won't be able to keep co-mingling our things forever if that's the way this goes)
- The text message from my Dad came up. I said I had nothing to do with it but that it is true, they are sad by H's absence. He said right now it was too hard to talk about things but in time he would reach out to them (interesting)
- Despite the obvious difficulties in holding a conversation (see below), H suggested that we get together in a couple of weeks. No firm plans but he said he'll send a text. (That's the first time he has suggested getting together without a practical reason in mind)
- H asked about the apartment I am moving into (hmmm…is that a bit of curiosity showing through? Wonder if I hooked him with the "you can see a bit of the Opera House from the balcony" comment ;-) )
- Before he left, H came round the table and gave me a rub on the shoulder as a departing gesture
- D word never came up


The bad:
- The R did come up (it's the elephant in the room so when the conversation stalls [see below] its almost inevitable that it comes up…usually by him…but since it was soooo general I decided I would ask some questions)
- H reiterated that it makes him sad to see me (same as last time) and that he finds it tough to talk to me (see below)
- I asked what he meant the last time when he said separation was a good thing - he clarified that what he meant was that he was unhappy in the R. I took the bait and asked "so you are happy now?" He said "at least I have the opportunity to be happy"
- I ended up asking "where are we at right now"? He said IF we were to get involved again the R would have to be very different. Right now he doesn't see how that can happen.
- I said I understood some of my role in the problems to which he responded "it's not you……(wait for it)…….it was the relationship" (like he doesn't appreciate that the R is manufactured by the two of us and is what we make it). Any thoughts on how to deal with that attitude? I stopped myself from going off on a rant (but was thinking, kinda calmly actually: these are all the things that I know I did wrong, have you even thought about your contribution…?)
- I still have difficulty trying to project that I'm moving on - but honestly I'm not sure that that is the best approach with my H. So I still let him know that I care and that I miss him. I also said more generally that I miss having a man in my life
- At one point I reached out and touched his arm as a consoling gesture…he pulled away and so I said sorry, it's hard to see him look so sad. I also dropped a couple of "hons" and then apologized (old habits die hard) but he said it was ok
- He left before I finished my meal (typical pattern - him leaving me at restaurants when things get too emotionally tough for him…that's got to change)
- H has bought a plane ticket to the US to go to his sister's wedding in late December. On the negative side it seems he's not expecting us to be together by then (and I'm really sorry to be missing the wedding). On the positive side, he's planning on coming back to Australia (one of my fears is that he'll move back to the US…and it will get really difficult to reconcile).

The ugly:
- H seems stuck in the same place - sad, stressed about work (I conveyed my sympathies), doing the same old (surfing, ultimate frisbee). It does't sound like his life is that different. He's not looking or sounding like someone who has an OW. Thoughts from those in the thick of it? Also doesn't seem like he is seeing an IC.
- We cannot hold a conversation. Sure I could banter on about this or that but if I don't feed the conversation then it stalls. This is the thing that concerns me most. If we can't feel comfortable talking again then I can't see how we can have a R again. Anyone else experience this…or have any suggestions here?
- It is painful watching my H try to communicate. On the positive side, in the past I probably would have interrupted and not given him much of a chance. I definitely sat back and waited for him to tell me what was on his mind (180) but it was painful to watch. I still need to work on the way I ask questions (need to be softer in my approach)

So I feel ok about things. I would say that the M is not dead, but H doesn't see the possibility of returning to it right now. Now my biggest challenge is to not fall into a funk like the last time we met up. I think I'll be ok as I'm moving into my new place at the end of the week and am looking forward to starting a new life there. Better book another appt with the IC as well.

[Maybell]

There are things about your sitch that reminded me of mine, so I'm interested to see what feedback you get. But for what it's worth, here are some thoughts:

I don't think there's much to do about his concept of what a relationship is for the time being. Ss06 has mentioned a couple of books that might help you see how you could adjust his concept more positively till you're in a place where discussion is possible, but in the meantime this is his truth and he's the only one who can change it. I know how frustrating that is; my H has said the same thing in practically the same words.

I haven't followed your thread in detail but if your sense is that there's no OW then there may not be. I don't want to be definitive about that because you're separated. The best thing is to behave according to the best case scenario until you have reason to change. My DB coach said that our expectations often determines outcomes, so give yourself your best chance and expect positive things.

If the conversation stalls, let it stall. If you give him space to fill the gaps, you might get information you wouldn't have gotten otherwise. Would it be a 180 for you to do that? It is for me, and it is HARD to do... But things started changing when I left that space.

It sounds like you had a mostly positive interaction. It would be good to not think of the places where things could improve as bad or ugly; if things were great you wouldn't be on the forum here. The items you put as bad and ugly were informational for how to bring everything up to good and great.

Looking forward to seeing what other feedback you get!

[gan]

Thanks, Maybell. It never ceases to amaze me how often people say that they've heard the same thing, in practically the same words. What's that about? We don't know anyone who has been through this so where on earth does this script come from? Can we buy it online and cut to the last page to see where it all ends up?

I look forward to seeing more feedback too ;-)

(Woke up feeling pretty good today)

[LisaB]

Hi ganb8te! It's interesting to hear how your H's moving day went! And like you and Maybell said it is always uncanny to read the similarities in our situations.

I think you and I are in a very similar boat. No kids, no real ties, uncommunicative H's who don't really have much to say about why they don't want to be with us, just vague complaints about being unhappy or dissatisfied.

I totally relate to what you are saying about the conversation faltering. And for me that is a 180, to be quiet and wait for him to start talking. I always fill the space and talk more than him but lately when I see him I have been trying to be quiet. When sitting at a restaurant it can be a bit awkward but I try to sip my drink and just look around me appearing to be quietly relaxed. It's so hard. If we are doing a task together like driving or walking I try to be quiet and actually I count in my head. That began a long time ago before BD when I wondered how long it would take him to speak if I didn't. But it also works to keep my mind occupied and keep me from talking first. Maybe that could help you? Try not to have bored or annoyed face but just wear a slight smile and look like you are thinking about rainbows.

It sounds like your day went WELL! There were so many positives: him wanting to have dinner, him wanting to see you again, him saying IF you got back together things would have to be different. Of course I read your story and compare to mine and my H would never say IF we tried again.... he is dead set that it is over. So that is a huge positive to me.

The next step seems to me to be working on finding out HOW he thinks things should be different so you can show him what he is looking for. Do you have ideas? How can you display those 180s to him?

As far as OW, I don't know if it matters so much whether there is one or not. I would say from your story that he may be looking but he hasn't found one yet. On the other hand, there really is no way to know for sure what he is doing. My H seemed extremely sad and depressed after he left, and was contacting me all the time. If I didn't know about OW I would think he was pining away for me all alone and missing me. Well, maybe he was when she was not around. ha.
But I wouldn't worry about that so much. I think you should be more focused on 180s.

Can you make a list of 180s you could possibly show him?

Overall I think you should be pleased! Lots of positives!!!
Hugs, Lisa

[gan]

Try not to have bored or annoyed face but just wear a slight smile and look like you are thinking about rainbows.

That made me laugh, Lisa. As I said on Ss's thread, I am working on my LBF. Smile and eyebrows up when listening intently! And now I will think about rainbows as well. I'm going to have to mull over your question about 180s.

Maybell, yes, sitting back and letting H fill the silence is a 180 for me. I agree that it is exceptionally TOUGH. I was happy with how I fared with this on Sunday and I did get to learn a little bit more about H's perspective as a result.

[Joe1981]

Well ganb8te, it seems your packing day went as well as it could have given the circumstances. hopefully he follows through on his plan to see you next week and you can again show him how awesome you are. I do feel like him saying "if" is a fairly big deal, it shows that he's at least thinking about the R and what it would take for him to be happy in it.

As far as not filling the conversational space, good luck ladies. In general I think we men are much more comfortable with sitting in silence. Our minds have no problem shutting down for short periods of time where we may literally be thinking about the equivalent of rainbows. It is a great exercise in patience though. Hopefully, your Hs see all the ways you are changing to meet their needs and realize how lucky they are.

[NewLeaf]

Hi ganb8te, I agree with Joe about being comfortable sitting in silence and being able to shut down for short periods of time without being the least bit uncomfortable or feeling anything was amiss. I think in happier times I just didn't think twice about the silence, as we were so comfortable with each other. I do feel the silence now though, and feel the pressure, that I might be missing an opportunity to connect if I can't find something to say to keep the conversation going. I haven't found anything in particular that makes it easier, just wanted to share that I've experienced it too.

It sounds like your packing day went really well, I'm really happy for you! I agree with Lisa on the whole "if" thing. My w hasn't said "if" since the BD in June. I don't even know what I would do at this point if she did.

[gan]

hopefully he follows through on his plan to see you next week and you can again show him how awesome you are.

I'm not holding by breath, Joe, but it would be a big step if he did! Besides, H and I have debated the meaning of "a couple" in the past. I'm a strict couple = 2 kind of person whereas he's a bit more loose (couple could mean anywhere from 2, 3, 4…) All will be revealed in due course ;-)