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Michele even says some marriages simply can't be saved, or won't be saved by choice.


When is it ok to say, "enough is enough" and initiate divorce or separation?


My wife refuses counseling, I've agreed never to ask her about it again, I continue my own personal therapy which is wonderful but completely aside from marriage.

I'm not happy. My wife makes excuses for all the things I say are important. Yes, I understand accepting not having sex, I’ve dealt with things like that, but while I still want it, I've dealt with it and don't hold a grudge.

I’m a doormat. I do all of the changing and she refuses to do any. For example, I think she simply can’t change. And that’s why it might be time to move on.

Her appetite is a good example. She eats like a 4-year old. Always has. Hates ALL vegetables. Only wants meat, cheese and bread, and even then it’s very specific----not mac and cheese, but ONLY a specific mac and cheese. It’s torture for a guy like me who loves to cook...but I still cook her those meals because she loves them.

As a result, she has diabetes and is over 250 pounds. For the record, I don’t find that unattractive. More to the point, I like big women, always have, so her size isn’t the issue, not one bit whatsoever.

But she won’t change her diet or exercise, despite diabetes killing her day by day. I think that’s just one good example of how stubborn she can be----I don’t say that to be mean, but to address her inherent nature to be stubborn and fear change.

We have no sex life, but I’ve done the divorce busting. I’ve become someone I’m more proud of than I was before. I work harder at it than ever before, and I’m truly happy with myself, even though I was happy before, now I have a path to health and success like I never dreamed. She resents me getting a life, so I purposely spend time with her, often just watching TV. We're happy that way, butthat's great for best friends or roommates-----not for marriage, not for me anyway.

But I’m relentlessly unhappy. My wife says she’s my biggest fan. I am afraid I have created an environment where I will bend over backwards to do anything for her----she loves me for that. I’m not happy though. I’ve become a doormat.

So when I bring up my concerns, I’m “pressuring” her. She WANTS me to grope her and kiss her all over, but she doesn’t want to make love. We’ve been married less than a year (anniversary trip is next weekend) and I think the last time we made love was early August. Even then it felt forced, like she was doing it to sate me, like, "I don't want to do this, but I don't hate it, I'm trying to prove love because I know this is something you want."

I’m sure the questions will be all about what I can do and not make it about her. But assume I’ve done just about everything I’ve been told and I’m a fantastic catch, my inherent question is this------what IS the limit before divorce should be considered? No, I’m NOT perfect. I've tried everything and it's honestly made me less happy with my marriage but happier with myself and I think she's WAY happier with me because I'm a better provider, I'm never asking her for anything anymore or pressuring anything, and she doesn't have to change. I did this all myself, it seems. I even look better, which is a nice pro for her, too. Of course she’s happy with me, right? I’ve improved AND I don’t ask her to try to help the marriage anymore because that was “pressure” for her.

But she won’t try, well, she won’t try anything. And I keep giving in, swallowing my pride and accepting a marriage I’m really just not happy in, always agreeing not to “pressure” her into having to change anything. I feel like I’m a roommate for a beautiful woman, a roomate who pays the bills and takes care of her when she’s ill and throws her compliments and I’m the mandatory designated-driver when she gets drunk twice a week. But I still love her. I’m simply not happy with the relationship and she’s unwilling to change anything on her end. It’s been about a year since I first started divorce-busting, even before we married. I’m not pointing everything at her, and while I think everyone would agree it does take SOME eventual effort by both people, when is it ok to say enough is enough regarding an unhappy partner?

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" I’m not pointing everything at her, and while I think everyone would agree it does take SOME eventual effort by both people, when is it ok to say enough is enough regarding an unhappy partner?"

That's up to you.

And for the record, all of the things you posted that you saw as "problems" like how she eats like a 4-year-old, is controlling. You are very critical of her actions that you feel are "wrong". They aren't wrong. They are just her choices that aren't yours.

You don't seem to respect that. I understand that especially the issue about the weight, that you mean well. HOWEVER, it is her choice.

You keep mentioning how you don't hold things against her, don't hold a grudge, etc. But your whole post just showed the contrary. There are a number of different ways to reach people. Maybe you just haven't done the right one.

But bottom line is that if you want to leave, that is up to you. It just seems like you're the one pushing yourself to leave, yet act as if she is the one pushing against your will.


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Emotion, yet peace.
Ignorance, yet knowledge.
Passion, yet serenity.
Chaos, yet harmony.
Death, yet a new life.

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Originally Posted By: MrBond


And for the record, all of the things you posted that you saw as "problems" like how she eats like a 4-year-old, is controlling. You are very critical of her actions that you feel are "wrong". They aren't wrong. They are just her choices that aren't yours. You don't seem to respect that.




I’m not critical of her food tastes. In fact, I think it’s cute, and I’ve learned to be a better cook by adjusting to meet her tastes and others-----my son’s girlfriend is a vegetarian, for example, and cooking for the 5 of us is a challenge I’ve learned to adapt to.


Originally Posted By: MrBond


You keep mentioning how you don't hold things against her, don't hold a grudge, etc. But your whole post just showed the contrary. There are a number of different ways to reach people. Maybe you just haven't done the right one.



K, good point-----any suggestions on what other ways I could try to reach her without her feeling pressured? Or does that question mean I’m putting this all on her? I don’t want to write an exhaustive essay about what I’ve done, but what I’m getting at here fundamentally is that I FEEL like I’m out of options for things that I can do MYSELF, alone, and I came asking for help implicitly because I’m afraid I’ve reached a point where I can’t figure out what else to do and divorce, as much as I don’t want to do it, I don’t know what exactly it would take for me to say it’s finally time to make that choice, know what I mean? She won’t do counseling, for example-----some people say eventually that’s the reason to leave.

Again, the taste in food was only meant as an example of her stubbornness as part of who she is. It’s part of who she is, and I know that might sound like an insult, but at least accept it first as truth. In many ways I like that about her-----she will never back down to get what she wants, and many times that’s a good thing, like getting better deals for wedding services! The food is a good example because of how specific it is-----she loves cheese, but only one cheese and from one particular brand. If it’s not that brand, she’ll send it back, or just won’t eat it (I’ve learned them the hard way, and adapted on purpose, no worries).

Secondly, her taste is, well, ok, I know I can’t say that it caused her diabetes. Fine, I accept that. But even severe diabetes isn’t enough to change her habits, even a little bit. I certainly don’t ask her to change what she eats, I give you my word. Her doctor does, but I just want her to be happy and so I feed her anything she wants, whenever she wants it. She LOVES margarine and salt salt salt. Let’s leave it at that as an example of her unwillingness to change her habits because she feels pressure to do so rather than desire to do so.

With that said, is it not easier to recognize her reluctance to change anything in the marriage? Don’t get me wrong, she’s changed, but in a negative direction. I’ve reached a point where I FEEL like I can’t do it anymore as a one-sided partner. She loves me more now implicitly because of how I’ve changed, how I’ve become better personally, plus how I’ve changed for her like never bringing up counseling again (that was 3 months ago) and understanding that it’s ok to have a sexless marriage because she had cancer and I should love her anyway, and I do. But she’s changed too, only for the worse; things like no longer brushing her teeth, not showering but maybe two times a week, forgetting important dates or not celebrating them, if I bring anything up it’s “pressuring” to her and that means if she ever does them she resents me for it. That’s why counseling isn’t an option.

So I kinda feel like I’m out of options AND I’m not happy. Any advice? Like, if counseling isn’t an option, is that sortof an ultimatum for an unhappy spouse?

Listen, I feel like I need to add a caveat that I don’t WANT the marriage to end. I don’t want to leave. I want it to work! But I can’t pretend I’m happy. Are there any real outliers for when anyone would suggest considering divorce is the right option? I mean, we’re great friends, but we’re roommates----it’s almost like the “marriage” part is pressure in and of itself, does that make sense? Like if we weren’t married I would be happier with the relationship exactly as it is.

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K, maybe I gave too much of my story.


Let's start from the top.

Generally speaking, what ARE some major outliers for when divorce might be the only option?

I will repeat I DO NOT want divorce, it's not that, but I've heard so much from so many, I feel like I've actually gone BEYOND where most people suggest are the red flag situations for meriting separation. But more people here know more about what should and shouldn't be cause for divorce, that's why I'm asking.

For example, I always thought cheating was a major outlyer for divorce. For many people, it still is. But I've also learned it simply doesn't have to be. We don't have that problem in our marriage, but if cheating isn't a reason, what is? At what point is it ok to say it's just not the right people?

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"I’m not critical of her food tastes. "

Really?...
"Her appetite is a good example. She eats like a 4-year old. Always has. Hates ALL vegetables. Only wants meat, cheese and bread, and even then it’s very specific----not mac and cheese, but ONLY a specific mac and cheese. It’s torture for a guy like me who loves to cook."

You said that you DB'd your situation. In what way? We can't give you advice if we don't know what you did. IN any event, DB is about doing what works. Do you talk to her like a child? What is your tone? Do you speak like you're lecturing her or rewording things in a way that sound like a benefit to her?

For example, if you wanted her to get more exercise, there's a difference between saying - "Get your fat @$$ off the couch and exercise or the diabetes could kill you" and "Hey it's a great day outside. I'm going for a walk, care to join me?"

"but if cheating isn't a reason, what is? At what point is it ok to say it's just not the right people?"

Again, that's up to you. I mean when you first married her, I'm sure the two of you were both different people. Something may have happened to her that made her change. I'm sure you're not the same person she first married also.

Only you can make that call and will have to live with the consequences. If you feel that your M was for life, then you work at it. As in real life, when you're working on a project, sometimes you have to come up with a different solution when something is not working right.


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Emotion, yet peace.
Ignorance, yet knowledge.
Passion, yet serenity.
Chaos, yet harmony.
Death, yet a new life.

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Um, isn't her getting more excercise also her choice?

I feel like any response I give is always met with criticism from you against me.

I would go into an essay about what I've done to DB. But you know the answers, right? There are only so many, albeit there are a lot (I’ve doubled my income as a result of my changes yet spend twice as much time with her, for example) I don't want it to be an outright diagnosis, so at the very least, give me the benefit of the doubt. Yes, I don't deserve that benefit, but hear me out.

Really I want some help deciding what to do next. I DO NOT want divorce. Who does? I think most people would rather fix things, right?

But I don’t know what would make me make the decision-----in fact, I don’t think I would even be able to convince myself to do that no matter how unhappy I am, and that’s why I’m here. If I found out she was cheating, that wouldn’t make me divorce her. That’s why I’m asking. What ARE the limits for a marriage on either side?

But yes, I’m unhappy. I’m going to therapy. I have always loved it. Is a partner who is unwilling to go to counseling but blames their spouse for pressuring them about the suggestion of it a red flag for marriage terms, for example? I mean, I don’t know what ELSE to do, does that make more sense?

So, for example, if you said “if she won’t say please and thank you then divorce her,” then I’ll instead try to find out if I can get her to say those things rather than just divorce her. See? I’m looking for other solutions here. I’ve tried everything in DB and then some, but assume that’s true, and then it’s changed nothing. I’ve changed my hair, my work schedule, my bank account so she can use it at all times, I don’t’ ask her for any help in the marriage for FEAR of it being “pressure” on her, but I truly believe counseling would help and that’s the last thing she would ever do.

You know, when I talk about the things I’ve done to change, I sound like an egomaniac. But the truth is I’m awesome. Does she resent me for it? She says she loves me MORE, and she loved me before, and I believe both. I mean, I’m even better than I was before, and that was pretty awesome!

But Im less happy with my wife and she’s gotten worse habits, k? Is her not doing any therapy or changes or talking to anyone AND me not being happy enough for divorce? If not, should I just continue to wait? How long should I “fake” happy and hope it just changes on it’s own? I know that sounds cynical, but I can wait, I just don’t know how long, but not forever, and I don’t think another year.

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Um, just to be perfectly clear, I think you see me as a jerk, but I do the right things. I would NEVER be mean like you said in that example, and consequently I always follow the later part, like INVITING her to do things, like walking as a matter of fact!

I'm NOT perfect. But man, you sure do take the bad side of things everytime. I understand where you're coming from, but I'm the guy who would be in an unhappy marriage (at least on my end) forever because of the promise of marriage. I don't know what it would take to get ME to initiate a split, and I guess that makes me feel like a sucker, like I'm being trampled on AND to suck it up and deal with it.

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"That’s why I’m asking. What ARE the limits for a marriage on either side?"

I don't know why you keep expecting some kind of black and white answer to this. There IS no limits. There have been people whose spouses turned out to be serial killers and they stayed together.

It comes down to you. You seem to want some kind of permission or parameters for this.

"Is her not doing any therapy or changes or talking to anyone AND me not being happy enough for divorce?"

Again, that's up to you.

"If not, should I just continue to wait? How long should I “fake” happy and hope it just changes on it’s own?"

When my W left, it took her three years to even start being nice to me again. And another 2 just o have some kind of normal relationship together.

If it bothers you so much, then divorce. It's a simple as that. If you don't believe that M is for life, then leave. That's why there's that "for better OR WORSE" in SICKNESS AND in health" part of your vows. Again, it's up to you.


M-43 W-40
2D - 9 and 5

Emotion, yet peace.
Ignorance, yet knowledge.
Passion, yet serenity.
Chaos, yet harmony.
Death, yet a new life.

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There's only one 'outlier' that will justify divorce to you, and that is this:

That you WANT divorce.

You seem to want it to be on her, that she did or didn't do something that led for you to obtain a divorce without wanting one. Sadly, it doesn't work that way and you have to own your decision 100%.

People have divorced over less, and people have stayed together with more problems, and it just comes down to you as an individual making the decision that you can live with.

All of our spouses got to that point and made their decision and owned it, and none of us agreed. Your W will not agree. Only you will know when it is the best decision for you, when you're willing to own it.


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6/15/11-12/1/12 From IDLY to H moving out
9/15/15-3/7/17 From negotiating SA to final D at age 50
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Originally Posted By: Grey
Generally speaking, what ARE some major outliers for when divorce might be the only option?

Physical Abuse.

That being said I agree with Mr. Bond and Advina.

Most of us got no choice in what happened,
however you DO have choices.

My guess is the LBS always makes the FINAL choice.

If you havent made it yet maybe then it is not yet FINAL.


Me-70, D37,S36

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