Am I the only LD here?

[ssmguy]

Thank you for your input, SSMGUY.... we have tried that, but it's not my cup of tea.... I still need the physical connection with him, and that doesn't give me it.

Actually I feel the same way. It's just that I don't have that option, so I'm doing the best I can without giving up a lot.

[Young at Heart]

.....OHMYGODS...I married a nice guy!!! this is exactly what he does...he believes if he does X I will do Y...and when I don't..he gets bummed, distant, and b!tchy. I've tried telling him that X doesn't work for me, but, as you mention, old habits die hard.
I will buy him the book No More Mr Nice Guy for Yule!

Let me give you a little bit of caution.

First, read the book yourself or buy two copies.

Second, (and this is the biggie) transitioning from being a NG is very hard to do as it was something that was ingrained/conditioned/taught over multiple decades. It is not an easy transition. There is some tendancy to become the "jerk" that women seem to prefer over marriage material men. One has to guard against it. The transition is most easily done if one has (or had at one time in one's life) a strong male mentor.

Not being a nice guy, when done right, is about becoming an integrated MAN, who has a life of his own, who has interest of his own, and who has standards of behavior that he will accept from others and himself(i.e. boundaries and that includes his wife). That means that as he transitions from being a NG, all of his close relationships will probably need to undergo some change or redefinition of healthy boundaries.

So be careful for what you wish for. Still most women fall in love with integrated men, marry them and some try to change them into nice guys. Other women find nice guys and like the way they are treated by them, but loose respect for their NG men over time.

If you want your husband to abandon his NG ways, he will need to Get a Life (GAL) doing "manly" things that he prides/values among other men. As Glover points out, in our society boys don't have the mentoring by strong male figures they did in Pre-Industrial Revolution times, women dominate the education system, feminism has made male sterotypes obsolete (or at least un PC), and there are few if any initiation rights or rights of passage from youth to man left in our culture. The book Iron John is another classic on being a man. The website The Art of Manliness is a "cheesey" but useful site for your husband.

As you can tell by this post, I was a NG and struggle from time to time on relapses. My GAL includes endurance events (half marathons, 15K's, 200 mile/2day bike events, rock & glacier mountain climbing, weight lifting). It also includes bonding with my adult sons and teaching them how to use an ax, a chainsaw, how to cut down a tree, how to use a table saw and skill saw, how to backpack in a wilderness for days, how to be a marksman with a rifle, and a variety of other things. Oh, and I make my living as a nerdy pencil pushing engineer, who thinks what he does is awesome and makes this a better world, by improving people's lives.

My wife lost almost all respect for me until I worked on my MWD SSM 180's which inculded dropping as many of my NG tendencies as I could and pushing myself to adopt a Manly G.A.L. She love the financial security, but didn't find me interesting,or thrilling until I changed. Sometimes she relapses as well with the new boundaries.

Good luck.

[Young at Heart]

YES!!! we have an appointment with a certified sex therapist!!! it's not until Jan, but we have it!!! I belive she is AASECT certified, I know she's certified and works under an AASECT therapist who wrote a book on low libido in women. Guess what i'm gonna read next!

I was reading some of the blogs this particular arthor has written and OMG can I relate....especially to the childhood crap that comes up now in my 40's while I'm in the healthiest relationship I've ever had! go figure. i feel safe enough to not feel safe??? weird. Just reading some of the blogs was making me emotional in the pit of my stomach...smack dab in the middle of my 3rd chakra! geez louise do i have issues to overcome!!

a new year and a new challenge.

to be continued...

You are so good, fighting for your marriage. You are doing exactly what MWD says when she says to Get A Life (GAL) and improve yourself to be the most interesting you, you can be.

Way to go. Yes, feeling safe enough to have childhood fears come out is an interesting fact of life. Welcome to the real world. Hopefully, you H will understand.

Expect sex therapy to push all your emotional buttons (or at least it did to my wife). Preping ahead of time will really help you reduce stress. My wife was so emotionally worked up after each Sex Therapy session that she often needed to just sit in the car, quitely on the drive home to compose herself or if I took her out to a dinner afterwards she would have a stiff drink, order comfort food and just want me to be empathetic for a couple hours without expressing any real thoughts of my own. Still it did save our marriage and make us much happier.

[Young at Heart]

I'm finding that i'm holding on to the little things, making it a big thing, and that is why i'm not interested in being sexual.

I get that he uses sex to feel emotionally bonded, and i would like to feel emotionally bonded before i'm interested in sex.

communication is the biggest thing with us at the moment. we need to learn better ways to communicate. I've asked him several times if we can do a communication exercise...he always agrees to do it, but when it comes time to, he has reasons for not following through. On the other hand, if there is an exercise or game that would get me more in the moood for sex, he's all about trying it. THAT is frustrating.

anyway...
hope you all have a great holiday

A couple more random thoughts.

Give yourself a chalenge, such as for the next 30 days, I will give my H, unconditional love. And then give him unconditional love (to make him FEEL LOVED as he wants to be) without expecting anything in return. The moment your mind says, hey I did this for him and he did nothing for me, remind yourself that unconditional love is about giving and not getting. Its a hard, but a useful exercise. You might also want to note if your H changes the way he treats you or if he just uses you. I'll wager he changes some of the ways he treats you, but not at first.

Unconditional love is about giving for the right reasons. It is about I love you and want the best for you and for you to feel my love. In my mind it is closely related to (but in reverse) the problem with being a Nice Guy. One of the key signs of being a NG is creating covert contracts. That is saying to yourself, if I do X for my spouse, they will finally realize how good I am and do what I need. Because I need Y from my spouse, I will do X until they give me what I want, not matter what. Well it doesn't work like that.

Your expecting something in return is kind of a covert contract whether you want to admit it or not. By holding on to the little things and expecting him to change before you can open up, you may be doing something quite similar to what you think is wrong with your husband's approach to your relationship, which is why an unconditional love challenge may cause you to realise some things about yourself.

Men and women view sex differently, as I am sure you know and as you wrote. Many men in a monogomous relationship need regular sex, but they need it so that they feel emotionally bonded and close to the woman they love. Those feelings are addictive. Someone has to break the chain and start the addiction. MWD says, "just do it" to the LD partner as a way of breaking the chain. Most men crave that emotional connection and miss it when the wife just lays there and tells them to get it over with or fakes sexual enthusiasm. One of the worst moments in my life was when my wife told me she had an early morning meeting and needed to be asleep in 5 minutes so I needed to hurry and get it over with. I told her hell no, I deseverd better. She had thought she was doing me a favor, she was belittling the emotional connection I needed.

My personal bias is that I beleive Dr D. Schnarch is right when he says that married couple typically don't have communication problems, they communicate too well.

I really believe that. Schnarch uses an example of a married couple at dinner who don't speak to each other, but are totally in synch with each other, pass things to the other, know what the other thinks, needs, wants, and know what their spouse will and will not do for them. They have had all these converstations hundreds of times before, know they are not going to change positions and don't need to expend the effort to argue things that aren't going to change.

The beauty of the MWD approach with 180's is that the old conversation, no longer applies. You are sitting at the table with someone who is "different" and doesn't behave as you know they will. That means you have to treat them differently. That means you have to NEGOTIATE NEW BOUNDARIES of behavior between the two of you. It isn't a communications issue, it is a boundary negotiations issue.

Yes, have a great holiday season. May you find the love you want and deserve.

[Young at Heart]

Thank you for your input, SSMGUY.... we have tried that, but it's not my cup of tea.... I still need the physical connection with him, and that doesn't give me it.

I can really understand why you feel that an open marriage is not your cup of tea. As you say you need physical connection with your H. I feel the same way.

One author of relationship books says that all parts of a relationship have an LD and HD component. For one member of a couple, one is more HD to watching football on the weekend, while the other might prefer to go for walks or out to a movie or play. Similarly, one is more HD for chocolate ice cream than the other who prefers strawberry ice cream. If you really need chocolate ice cream 4 days a week and your spouse never wants it, does that mean you have to deny yourself chocolate ice cream for the good of your marriage?

What I think SSMguy was trying to tell you is if sexual frequency is the only problem in your marriage and it is non-negotiable and you like all other aspects of your M, then an open marriage can for some be a solution.

For most the emotional aspects, medical (safe sex), and social aspects make it a non-starter. But if your H really does need (for all the wrong reasons) sex 4 times a week and the best you can do is 2 times a week, enjoy those two times a week, and tell him to find his happiness. Hopefully, his happiness will involve masturbating as opposed to seeing another woman, but you may or may not ever find out. For some that is a better option that having sex zero times a week, divorce or constantly fighting about sex. For me fighting about sex is really fighting about other things within the marriage. For me my vows to my wife and her trust are important. You need to figure out your own situation and what works for you and your H.

Good luck.

[ssmguy]

For most the emotional aspects, medical (safe sex), and social aspects make it a non-starter.

There are many erotic playful things one can do that are practically 100% safe. Anyone who thinks sex mostly has to involve even mildly risky behavior has no imagination in my opinion.

But if your H really does need (for all the wrong reasons) sex 4 times a week and the best you can do is 2 times a week, enjoy those two times a week, and tell him to find his happiness. Hopefully, his happiness will involve masturbating as opposed to seeing another woman,

I can deal with differences in desired frequency as long as one of them isn't zero. The problem is you can't get someone with a preferred frequency of zero to meet you halfway at half your desired frequency. Because for someone who wants zero sex, doing it ten times as often as they would prefer is still zero! LOL

[Young at Heart]

...I can deal with differences in desired frequency as long as one of them isn't zero. The problem is you can't get someone with a preferred frequency of zero to meet you halfway at half your desired frequency. Because for someone who wants zero sex, doing it ten times as often as they would prefer is still zero! LOL

Thanks. You have helped me when I had my SSM in the past, which at the time was zero. As you say, Zero is a tough number to deal with.

[T-Mom]

But the thing is, I DO want to have sex with him... and I would be happy to do it several times a week..or as often as possible.... I am definitely not the hold out.... but I am not very good at dealing with rejection... especially sexually.

[ssmguy]

Thanks. You have helped me when I had my SSM in the past, which at the time was zero. As you say, Zero is a tough number to deal with.

You prompted me to go back and look at some old posts. Wow! I can't believe I've been around here for over 5 years now.

[Young at Heart]

.... but I am not very good at dealing with rejection... especially sexually.

That is the problem, just about nobody can handle rejection after rejection after rejection. You have both probably in different ways trained each other in a Pavlovian kind of way to not have sex. And yet, if the two of you are not to give up, someone has to start a "different conditioning" process to encourage openness and initiation.

So if you refuse to initiate and avoid rejections what is the likely outcome? Is that an outcome you want? If not, then you need to change something in the way the two of your interact. That is what the MWD program is all about and the beauty of the 180. It is something you change that forces him to change the way he treats you.